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Lawyers automate this, so why don't airlines?

192 points by leejo 6y ago

asperous 6y ago
I know class action has a bad reputation, but this is the type of situation it was designed for. The courts can't handle 100,000 individual claims but it can handle one very large claim with 100,000 members.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  Does class action have a bad reputation? I know businesses hate it and in the US are doing everything they can to eliminate it. But as a consumer, I see it as the only way to level the playing field. If it has a bad reputation, I speculate that is the result of businesses lobbying against it in the press and with politicians.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Does class action have a bad reputation? In the US at least they’re associated with companies preying on people and they never seem to actually achieve much in practice except for lawyers. I would say they are a consumer rights problem, not a solution to consumer rights problems.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      I think the value of class action is as a deterrent not a remedy.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Living in the US, I don't feel like class action suits do me much good. Businesses are happy to send me $7 vouchers for shit I don't want.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      Imagine a world without class action. It’s not hard. Think about your internet provider. If you are in the US, you undoubtedly waived your rights to class action and taking the company to court. And then you wonder why your provider raises rates despite you being under contract. Why they can advertise data-capped, throttled service as unlimited. It’s because there is no way to sue them for an amount of money big enough to make a difference. The best you as an individual can do is sue for a few bucks. Who had time for that? So you assume that’s just the way things are. You get screwed. But they don’t have to be that way. If only a lawyer could sue the company on behalf of all the customers for all those tiny injustices. All those injustices together would add up to real money that might make companies think twice. It would also add up to enough to motivate a lawyer to take the case with no upfront payment. So I understand if you don’t care about $7 checks, but that’s not the point. The point is a check on bad corporate actors that screw you, but just gently enough to that you don’t personally sue them.
  - maxsilver 6y ago
    It's not that class action has a "bad" reputation, just that in the US, it has a 'meaningless' reputation. The punishment is generally so absurdly minor, and the time frame so long, that it feels like it's not even a slap on the wrist for the offender. The popular perception of class action in the US, is something like, "yes, Kitchenpal knowingly sold thousands of Blenders that sparked out and caught fire, and burned like 50 people's houses down. But luckily your class-action lawsuit came through 10 years later with a check worth $3.22 as compensation"
    - egypturnash 6y ago
      "...and multiple millions of dollars to the lawyers who got you this victory"
      - Hnrobert42 6y ago
        Well, the lawyers usually work on contingency. If they don’t win, they worked for 10 years for free. So, the percentage of victory is compensation for their risk and fronting the money to work for a decade. Further, as the parent post points out, the compensation to the individual is low. Even if the lawyers made nothing, what does the plaintiff care? $3 or $6? What does it matter? But the point isn’t compensating the plaintiff. The point is punishing the defendants and creating some kind of deterrent.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      The point of class action is not to make the plaintiffs while with a check for $3.22. The point is punishing the defendants and creating some kind of deterrent. Yes, such lawsuits take too long and inflict too little pain on defendants, but sadly they are all we’ve got.
  - StanislavPetrov 6y ago
    If you are suing because you want to recover your 300 Euros, a class-action suit that takes a decade and ends up paying you 5 Euros and results in no substantive change to the policy is a very poor substitute.
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      The value in class action lawsuits is as a deterrent to companies. Also, most recipients of the 5 euro awards do literally nothing. The check just shows up. What more do you want? Or more to the point, what alternative do you propose?
  - staybailey 6y ago
    Companies like making money and historically class action lawsuits have made it easier for employees or customers to cut into profit margins based on wrongful action by the company. The incentive to join a class action suite was less than each individual filing there own case. Hence the dislike But, as the article perhaps alludes to, the tide may be changing on that due to legal industry automation. If law firms can file nearly identical lawsuites at scale then the incentives can again favor consumers and employees. This may not have happened in this particular case due to courts being unable to scale, but it has happened to companies like DoorDash. See https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-11/doordash-arbitration-blunder%3f_amp=true https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/...
- vkou 6y ago
  > The courts can't handle 100,000 individual claims Why not? Bill the loser for court fees. If the cases have merit, the target company will be financially ruined. This seems to be a better deterrent to bad corporate behaviour than a class action suit where the settlement for 100,000 claims is 15 million, where the lawyers keep 99% of it.
tyingq 6y ago
UPS is similar. The process to make a claim for a lost, late, or damaged package is tedious and manual. I imagine that's not a mistake.
orange_tee 6y ago
The actual problem is not easyJet, though. They are complaint to the letter of the law. The problem is the law which is written in a way that allows easyJet to make the claims process as painful as possible. I have gone through this with a lot of stuff, most notoriously when dealing with landlords. On its face the law seems consumer friendly, but only when you try to use it, do you realize that you need to spend months/years wrestling with the company to get your measly few hundred euros back, and you might even need to engage a lawyer. I guess although engaging the lawyer seems optional at first glance, it is really the only way to get anything done.
- emteycz 6y ago
  > On its face the law seems consumer friendly, but only when you try to use it, do you realize that you need to spend months/years wrestling with the company to get your measly few hundred euros back, and you might even need to engage a lawyer. I don't understand how anyone can fall for this after all this time. It's the case with all law. The politicians are not there for the people.
  - Retric 6y ago
    In many case the law as written might actually be consumer friendly, but case law tends to favor corporations which had more money to spend representing themselves. Over time it’s a surprisingly subtle corruption of our legal system.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      I don't think there are many cases of that. Maybe a few, and the law is probably updated already. There is just a handful of honest politicians, what else should we expect?
      - Retric 6y ago
        Food labeling laws and regulations are a solid counter example. Plenty of improvements are possible, but the industry would be in favor of ~zero laws so in effect their all consumer friendly by design. The difference between calling something peanut butter and peanut spread might not seem that important, but it’s those exact invisible laws and regulations that end up being critical.
telesilla 6y ago
Probably just whoever was reading the paperwork on the day. That's an unfortunate turnout for the poster. I've had exactly the same experience but different departure airport and won (flight didn't go, I bought am immediate replacement seat myself, didn't use the one that was reassigned to me so I could get there faster). I use https://refund.me https://refund.me, excellent success rate and very little effort. It would be amazing to see the same rules be followed around the world. It's times like these I have a deep respect for the EU. Hm, does this mean that UK flights won't be subject to this going forward?
- Veen 6y ago
  The UK Government announced their intention to adopt EU Regulation 261/2004 into UK law (although we've yet to see whether that will actually happen).
  - richardwhiuk 6y ago
    The EU Withdrawal Act of 2018 included 261/2004 in UK law.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > refund.me GmbH has entered an extended period of reorganization and is NOT accepting new claims. Seems like they too have thrown in the towel.
  - telesilla 6y ago
    That's a shame, I can't imagine how their business isn't profitable. Alternatives seem to be: aireclaim.com click2refund.com flight-delayed.co.uk Others?
jpcooper 6y ago
Travel cancellation insurance is a thing that exists. It would be nice to see a travel cancellation insurance product which pays out based on the following automatically and easily verifiable outcomes: 1. Customer turns up. 2. Plane leaves within a certain range around scheduled time. 3. Plane arrives at destination. 4. Plane arrives at destination within a certain range around the scheduled time. 5. The price of the trip. 6. Weather events make things difficult. Airlines could either integrate or not. Maybe the premiums would have to be higher due to a higher occurrence of payouts, but maybe they wouldn't have to be so high due to the number of claims processing people you now do not have to employ. Maybe I am oversimplifying.
- telesilla 6y ago
  The EU has strict rules around exactly this. If the flight is outside the rules, you submit the paperwork and wait for a response. I've done this 5 times the last year and won more than the flight cost, even those times I received a hotel and replacement flight. It makes EU flight planners very careful, I imagine, due to the expense of losing an entire flight income and more.
  - jpcooper 6y ago
    The author seems not to have been able to claim what he should under these rules.
    - telesilla 6y ago
      Yes I wrote earlier, I had a similar problem that I won on. I think it was bad luck and worth pursuing further.
      - leejo 6y ago
        I did eventually get compensation, the details are in the "Closure" section at the end of the post.
        6y ago
uberman 6y ago
Long story short: Guy had flight canceled and wants airlines to have automated refund system. The issue is though that no company I know of really wants an automated easy path to disperse money back to the public. Ever try to collect on an insurance policy?
- kirykl 6y ago
  Amazon does a pretty good job automating returns. It’s also good enough to be a differentiator when choosing where to buy.
  - tacostakohashi 6y ago
    I had an Amazon item that didn't show up / got lost by UPS. The process presented by Amazon for this was pretty silly / tedious: 1) Initially, the tracking page said the item is late, maybe lost, if it doesn't arrive by X date (2-3 days after it was due), check back here to initiate a replacement / refund. 2) I went back on X date to arrange a refund. You click the button, initially it takes you to an automated chat thing that asks is this the item you are asking about (yes), do you want a refund or replacement (refund)... then it hands you over to a human and you have the same conversation again. 3) Finally, the human issued the refund... but as a gift card / credit without asking me. In any case, it was a 5-10 minute process hidden behind both automated and non-automated chats, which is stupid and unnecessary, especially considering that these are the people that invented (patented) 1-click. They knew from their own tracking that it was missing, so it could and should have just been a single button for replace vs refund. I suspect the steps depend on the item / amount involved, some customer risk score, etc, etc, I am sure it's all very elaborate, but in my case it was tedious. Issuing a gift card is consumer-hostile BS too, should be outlawed if you ask me. I paid for something with money, it didn't show up, so I get the money back, simple. If I wanted to buy a gift card, I would.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - massysett 6y ago
umanwizard 6y ago
Tangential question: why do some British people put an “x” at the end of every text, like the author’s mom?
- fantalamera 6y ago
  The letter X is widely used at the end of text messages and emails to signify a "Kiss". https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/X.html https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/X.html
  - js2 6y ago
    That's funny, I've never seen it standalone, so I wouldn't have guessed. I'm used to "xoxo" for hugs and kisses.
- alex-yark 6y ago
  It's just an informal way of ending a text, sort of signifies a kiss but used amongst friends and family
- eplanit 6y ago
  X = kiss, O = hug
otterley 6y ago
"Automated claims systems, why don’t airlines have these? They would save money on support staff/legal fees/etc. The could charge a couple of pounds/dollars/euros more per ticket and probably cover all compensation costs. We know that “no win no fee” claims services exist. They know they exist. They know that we know that they exist, so what the fuck are we all doing wasting our time here?" The answer is simple: You automate the things that earn you money. You don't automate the things that make you pay money to others - perhaps with the exception of your supply chain or other resources you need to maintain business continuity. The author is thinking like an engineer, not like a businessperson. Not that there's anything wrong with thinking like an engineer where it's called for, but airlines are profit-seeking businesses.
- sp332 6y ago
  I thought exactly the same. Avoiding automaton let them bring a whole court system to its knees which meant they could get away with breaking the law.
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    No that you said it, court systems should have overuse tariffs, so the people that overwhelm them subside the extra capacity they need.
    - otterley 6y ago
      At least in the U.S., courts already charge filing and other fees, which in these small cases might be more than the potential damages. (Unless you can seek punitive or multiple damages depending on what the law allows.) That's why class actions are often used here, since it would be impractical to file a case on behalf of every injured claimant.
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        USA, like UK, has a small claims system too. In theory that makes legal redress less costly (for the complainant and the court system). https://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info.shtml https://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info....
aboringusername 6y ago
In the UK broadband providers have an automatic compensation scheme in the event things go wrong. The thing with law is it's almost impossible to cover 100% of cases with words and letters - so case law is designed to facilitate what applies and what does not (and often gets it 'wrong' according to society). Ideally, there are conditions in which you get automatic compensation, in the form of a payment to your bank (as easily as you give company money they can give it to you). If the tech is there to send a business money so can they send it to me if they don't provide a good service, it's not difficult. We're so advanced with our developments in AI yet so many things are basic and stuck in the past. This shouldn't even be down to airlines - it's a system that does all the work on behalf of the customer and business.
joneholland 6y ago
Rather than booking the replacement flight directly the author should have had easyjet rebook him. The author did no-show on the replacement flight provided by easyJet, and all of the griping will get them nowhere. You can’t take things into your own hands and then expect the company to refund you, the company would have provided the free alternative flight (earlier than the one the next day) and the EU fine had they just talked to a gate agent. I’ve flown hundreds of thousands of miles and had my share of issues like this and you can always sort it out if you do it prior to taking the replacement flight.
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  I've had this before. Gate agents told us we had to book online. Online the next available flight was Thursday. No true easyJet representative in the airport on a Sunday evening in a non-base airport. Phoned the call centre and assured that we'd be reimbursed for a replacement flight and reasonable expenses. When back in the UK submitted receipts and told they would only pay for our meal.
  - leejo 6y ago
    ^ This. When we got back into the gate (having been sat in the returned plane for over an hour) I checked the available flights - IIRC three seats remained on a flight to Liverpool, and nothing else that would get us closer (our original flight being Manchester). I booked them immediately. The alternative would have been waiting to see an easyJet representative, in an overcrowded gate, two days before Xmas. Those seats would have gone. I've been through Geneva airport enough times to know how it functions and that we were going to get bumped to the next day.
- s0rce 6y ago
  Good luck with that. I've found gate agents either to not exist, or the 1-2 of them get completely overwhelemed as an entire flight needs to rebook. Passengers who were only connecting to another final destination add further complexity. Obviously the OP took a risk that the airline wouldn't refund his new flight but the alternative of waiting in a giant line or finding a non-existent agent from a budget carrier to hopefully rebook you isn't great either.
renewiltord 6y ago
You have to book through them rather than by yourself. In fact, I'm very surprised he retained the flight back. Usually they cancel your return leg if you no-show the outbound leg. It's shitty stuff from the airlines for sure. But AFAIK, they all do this at this level.
- fy20 6y ago
  That's not the case with low cost airlines in Europe. Each leg of the journey is on a separate ticket. This also means if you are flying there and back the same day, if there is a delay on the outbound flight and you miss the return flight it's considered a no show, so they don't need to compensate you.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Whacky, I had EasyJet Plus for so long (the £200/yr thing) and flew practically every weekend and didn't know that.
dpedu 6y ago
> Given the original arrival time was delayed by more than three hours we were covered by EU Regulation 261/2004 I had similar situation a couple years ago and ended up using Airhelp.com to obtain my compensation. They took a cut of course but I had to do pretty much nothing beyond sending them my itinerary and I got a bank transfer in a couple of weeks. I am of course unaffiliated.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Right - give them a pretty small cut and they will go after them with techniques they know work and relentlessly because it’s now their money. Why do anything else?
cbanek 6y ago
American Airlines (which flies to Europe and is covered under the EU regulations for flights to/from the EU) doesn't even mention the EU regulations or how to make a claim at all on their website. None. Not a word. You have to make a customer service request as if you were asking a question, and then know all the right things to say. Businesses just aren't optimizing for the things they hate. They'd rather do all they can to hide it and forget to mention it to you, if it weren't illegal (and sometimes, still then). They will only do the letter of the law, and only to go through the motions, and only if the penalties for not are high and the risk of getting caught is equally high.
xchip 6y ago
What a click baity title :/
pydry 6y ago
I tried to make a claim through the courts when EasyJet didn't pay out the amount they were required to under EU law. I didn't get a refund. I didn't get a replacement booking (well, I was offered one leaving after my return flight). I got exactly nothing. The court simply threw out my case because it was "overloaded". I think Easyjet might be exploiting this loophole to avoid paying customers whom they've fucked over. I had another case against a different business which I launched and got thrown out because the courts were overloaded too. The UK courts system appears to be horrendously underautomated. It was a mess of scanned written forms and calling up people to read credit card numbers over the phone. They really should deduct a ton of points on those "ease of doing business" metrics for this mess.
bamboleo 6y ago
I had quite a few flights and trains booked in March and early April. They were all canceled of course. Out of all of them, EasyJet was the only company that let me have an instant refund on their website. Most of the others made me call them (I was on the Alitalia line for 90 minutes, after hours of being flatout rejected from the call queue), some I had to issue a chargeback, and some refunded me in November. One I’m still waiting. I also booked the Bernina Express and the only refund option is to show up at one of their stations in Switzerland I guess. This is to say that most travel companies operate in a similar non-automated fashion because that’s what makes them the most money. EasyJet is far from the exception.
MichaelZuo 6y ago
Perhaps the aviation industry is also in a sub-optimal Nash Equilibrium, and certain types of major changes need to happen en mass.
jancsika 6y ago
I don't know what the right answer is to this problem. But I do know that the right answer to this problem includes a blockchain.
mehrdadn 6y ago
I think I disagree on the flight having been canceled. I'd have assumed the distinguishing factor between a flight cancellation vs. rescheduling isn't the flight number (a flight number seems like an immaterial bookkeeping abstraction?), but rather, whether a replacement flight offers seats to all of the passengers of the first flight. It seems they did this, as they say in their text message. As far as semantics is concerned, this is where it ends for me. Looking at it from a practical standpoint, the company still incurred the same costs of the original flight just at a later time, and they had reserved seats for all the passengers, so it doesn't make sense for them to compensate as if the replacement flight had never taken place at all. [1] Had the author contacted them to let them know he wouldn't be showing up, they could've had a chance to agree and even to give his seat to someone else... but he just decided not to just not show up. At that point it doesn't make sense to get compensated as if the company had just let the seat disappear into thin air (no pun intended). [1] [1] It seems people are misreading my comment to mean I think he shouldn't be compensated at all. I'm not saying he shouldn't be compensated. ("As if" is the key phrase here.) I'm saying any compensation he receives should be for the flight being delayed, not canceled—whatever amount might be appropriate for each.
- lmarcos 6y ago
  But the replacement flight was scheduled for the next morning... That means that the passenger loses time and money (hotel/food?). Why wouldn't the airline company compensate this?
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    I edited to clarify. I'm not saying the airline shouldn't compensate this. Rather, that the compensation shouldn't be as if the replacement flight never happened—it should be as if the replacement flight did happen. i.e. I'm saying the complaint falls under "I disagree on the amount, I think it's too low" rather than "I disagree on the nature of the event entirely".
  - Closi 6y ago
    Airlines do compensate this - Usually in Europe the airline will actually directly arrange the hotel / accommodation and will offer the food in terms of vouchers to spend within the airport, rather than allow passengers to spend and then claim it back. I suspect all this happened in OPs case. If you make your own arrangements then this isn’t usually covered.
HenryBemis 6y ago
Similar experience with Wizz. They said that the flight was delayed (5-6h) due to 'unforeseen circumstances'. When I reached out to them for the €200 they claimed that they will not, as it is was not their fault and for security reasons they cannot disclose to me the 'why'. I got a very close friend working for Wizz. He told me that this is the boilerplate BS email they send to all such requests, to scare them off. Reading it one may thing "oh there may have been a terror-related thing, better not bother the CIA-FBI-NSA-PoPo-MI5-MI6-MI99... and that I should reach out to the responsible regulator and I'd get my money back. Which I did. I included the BS email. I assume the regulator didn't buy the BS email from Wizz and I got paid. 3 months later, but Wizz lying bastards didn't get away with it.
jgalt212 6y ago
cultural quibble. > my partner What per cent of the time is this "romantic, or maybe even life" or "business" partner? When married, the term "spouse" is always preferable. - jgalt's style guide
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I think people only say 'partner' when they specifically mean 'romantic not spouse'. I'd say it rarely means 'business partner' these days. People would generally say 'co-founder' or something instead. Are people even technically partners in business anymore? Makes me think of Marley and Scrooge. It generally means 'boyfriend or girlfriend' but over the age of something like 25 when boyfriend or girlfriend starts to sound a little awkward to some people's ears. People get married a lot later these days, or not at all if they don't wish to. Of course people may use it to mean anything they want. But it's simple - if someone refers to their guest as 'partner' do them the courtesy of also using that term.
  - jgalt212 6y ago
    > I'd say it rarely means 'business partner' these days. Definitely not the case for professional firms such as management consultancies, accountants, and law firms.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      I think you're thinking of those people saying 'a partner' as in 'she's a partner.' I've literally never heard anyone say she's 'my partner' expecting me to understand that she's also a partner in the same firm as them.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
> potentially catastrophic consequences of the cabin pressure system failing at cruising altitude, I considered that everyone on the plane had been very lucky. The cabin pressurization system failing at cruising altitude is one of the more common types of aircraft incidents. That's why planes are equipped with systems to handle it. While a catastrophic outcome is not impossible, it is exceedingly unlikely. As to the compensation issue, airlines should be required to pay out the compensation automatically, with 3x the compensation automatically due as a penalty if the customer has to make them pay through the courts. This would remove the incentive to make it hard for customers to claim the compensation. Given that I by now unfortunately have a decent understanding of the compensation rules, if I have a claim that I'm confident about and the airline doesn't pay immediately, I'll take it straight to court. If in a jurisdiction where they have to pay the lawyer fees, I'll have a regular lawyer handle it - no need to let an agency take 30% if you know you'll win and a lawyer can make some money (driving up the costs of misbehavior for the airline). For consumer lawsuits you can often sue the airline at your local court, which isn't overloaded.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  The simple modification to the rules should be "compensation a court finds to have not been properly paid (even if the victim did not request compensation), shall be paid at double the original rate. If the victim cannot be located, the compensation must be paid at triple the original rate to the government". That means compensation shall not require the victim having to ask for it. It also means if the airline claims they can't track down the victim to make payment, they have to pay extra.
ultim8k 6y ago
Airliners suck big time. I'm looking forward for a modern, honest, client-friendly airliner that will force everyone else out of business.
- threwawaysoff 6y ago
  Virgin, if they get investment, strategy, and ambition. In Heathrow, they said more than "hello" to and knew so many vendors and regular workers, and even showed me how to find flights across carriers on their terminal. They were so phreak'n cool.
beervirus 6y ago
Lawyers have a financial incentive to automate these things. Airlines have a financial incentive NOT to automate them.
londons_explore 6y ago
I like the fact these compensation rules have massive loopholes. If they didn't, I think it would more than double the price of some tickets. Sometimes I fly hundreds of miles for 10 euros (all taxes and fees included). There is no way a business can offer a refund of 300 euros if that flight is delayed. Compensation should be an optional feature - I should be able to spend an extra 30 euros on my flight to get compensation in case of delay. Ask me when I book. Just like other insurance.
- fy20 6y ago
  I know that Wizz Air do something like that. You can pay some amount, and if the flight is delayed by more than 1 hour they will give you a voucher for the ticket price (I think just the base price) back. The thing is when do you ever just spend €10 on a flight? Once you add in checked luggage, the priority carry on so you can take more than a packet of crisps onboard, assigned seats so you can sit next to whoever else you are flying with, and extra legroom so you don't end up with leg injuries, you are paying closer to €100. These companies are making serious bank.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    I never buy any of the extras. I hate checking luggage and I'm fine with just taking a laptop and a change of clothes pretty much anywhere, which comfortably fits under the seat in front of me. Looking around flights, I suspect at least half of passengers do the same as me.
threwawaysoff 6y ago
Btw, an aircraft that may revolutionize the viability of regional and charter flights because of its low capex and opex costs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Celera_500L https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Celera_500L Mentour Pilot's assessment: https://youtu.be/CN4EKZHYVaE https://youtu.be/CN4EKZHYVaE
noxvilleza 6y ago
Slightly different but similarly annoying situation happened to me. Was flying back from Birmingham to Berlin, via Dusseldorf (with Eurowings, booked via Lufthansa). There was bad weather at Dusseldorf so the outgoing flight was delayed by an hour or so. Knowing that any passenger arriving at Dusseldorf would arrive at ~8:30pm, and thus miss their connecting flights for the day - they still insisted on people flying there. We arrived, and were stranded - obviously. Their agents closed the booth and tried to leave, but after a bunch of discussion they then wanted to put people on buses or trains to various parts of Germany overnight. A few of us demanded accommodation and ended up staying in the nearby hotel. After like 10 emails back and forth over the next week with the airline they ended up refusing to pay compensation, so I raised a claim with the consumer arbitration board in the country I live (soep-online.de). Two days later I get an email from the airline saying they'll pay out. It seems so utterly scummy that they try lie and deceive consumers out of their rights - how are there not strict punishments in situations where airlines mislead and screw over consumers?
efitz 6y ago
The legitimacy of governments and of courts is primarily by belief - eg the courts are legitimate because most people believe that they are. There seem to be a lot of people out there who don’t understand this concept and don’t understand that western societies are not immune to mass unrest or violence or even insurrection. In particular it seems like courts and legislatures are failing at their most basic tasks in many western countries. I hope that in Europe that the legislatures or the courts intervene precipitously in these kinds of widespread fraud by corporations; a few executives going to jail as an example to others would quickly correct the situation. Otherwise this eats away at the credibility of the government in general and you just see more lawlessness.
disabled 6y ago
Airlines need to be extremely wary about automating things. This is an extremely sensitive matter, as it involves movement of people and people's lives. I have been on a Viber travel group supporting people trying to get into Croatia. It consists of many American citizens. Anyways, over the past couple of days, Delta/United/Iberia have been using artificial intelligence (AI) to /automatically update/ where people can or cannot go, based off of government websites. Instead of having proper staff to look over these requirements, they use AI to screw over their customers, as the AI has errors in its interpretations for documentation required by travelers. There have been a few people on this Viber group who have been wrongly denied boarding, right before their Christmas holiday, due to inconsistencies in the interpretations of the AI (multiple errors, type 1 and type 2), from the company Smartvel. Sadly, people of color have been the ones getting stopped more and denied boarding in the US. This is the technology that I am talking about: https://www.smartvel.com/covid19-entry-restrictions/ https://www.smartvel.com/covid19-entry-restrictions/ This is the API plugin on Delta.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.delta.com/us/en/plan-your-next-trip/where-we-fly https://www.delta.com/us/en/plan-your-next-trip/where-we-fly This is the API plugin on United.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/restrictions-map.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/restrictions-map... Ironically, if you booked online using KLM.com (affiliated with Delta but a European airline) or Lufthansa.com (affiliated with United but a European airline) you were not subjected to this problem, even though it was the same flight through a codeshare arrangement via the airlines. It really is inhumane. While people may not want people flying due to the coronavirus (honestly, I don't but Croatia does need the business and I want them to see my country too), these people had their plans made and their holidays were ruined over AI. It is cruel. By the way, I am a dual US|Croatian citizen, and if Croatia allows third country nationals, such as Americans in, then I think they should be allowed in. Also, if you spend 14 days in Croatia as an American, you can basically enter the EU without issue, but you may want to check https://reopen.europa.eu/ https://reopen.europa.eu/ for entry restrictions, country-to-country. It is a loophole.
aj7 6y ago
Moderators, please.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aarchi 6y ago
Is there a service that provides crowd-sourced data on airplane reliability by registration number? The registration number is probably only revealed just before boarding though, so that would limit its utility. > we could see the registration number: G-EZRU. The exact same plane that had flown out of Geneva, had both its pressure systems fail, had been known to have other problems in its service history
boublepop 6y ago
I honestly believe that this is because it’s cheaper for them to make arrangements with the “no win no fee”-firms than to create a proper process. When you get the first couple of “technically a lie but an excusable lie”-responds they pick out a couple of layers of complains each, then when you reach out the the “no win no fee” I’m certain their first 1-2 layers back to you are just steps in the same process “you might have a case but could take this small payment” “you have a case but it will take for ever, here’s a slightly higher offer” and these can be quickly negotiated because they just split the damage with the airline. They have a multilevel yearlong process of starving our customers from extremely reasonable compensations, which they have deviously optimized so they can sell tickets at what? Maybe 10-20% lower rates and steal the high-volumes low rate market. I think it’s naive to believe that this is all progressing without a level of collaboration between them and the airline that is at least unethical and potentially illegal.

192 points by leejo 6y ago

I know class action has a bad reputation, but this is the type of situation it was designed for. The courts can't handle 100,000 individual claims but it can handle one very large claim with 100,000 members.

Hnrobert42 6y ago
Does class action have a bad reputation? I know businesses hate it and in the US are doing everything they can to eliminate it. But as a consumer, I see it as the only way to level the playing field. If it has a bad reputation, I speculate that is the result of businesses lobbying against it in the press and with politicians.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Does class action have a bad reputation? In the US at least they’re associated with companies preying on people and they never seem to actually achieve much in practice except for lawyers. I would say they are a consumer rights problem, not a solution to consumer rights problems.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    I think the value of class action is as a deterrent not a remedy.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Living in the US, I don't feel like class action suits do me much good. Businesses are happy to send me $7 vouchers for shit I don't want.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    Imagine a world without class action. It’s not hard. Think about your internet provider. If you are in the US, you undoubtedly waived your rights to class action and taking the company to court. And then you wonder why your provider raises rates despite you being under contract. Why they can advertise data-capped, throttled service as unlimited. It’s because there is no way to sue them for an amount of money big enough to make a difference. The best you as an individual can do is sue for a few bucks. Who had time for that? So you assume that’s just the way things are. You get screwed. But they don’t have to be that way. If only a lawyer could sue the company on behalf of all the customers for all those tiny injustices. All those injustices together would add up to real money that might make companies think twice. It would also add up to enough to motivate a lawyer to take the case with no upfront payment. So I understand if you don’t care about $7 checks, but that’s not the point. The point is a check on bad corporate actors that screw you, but just gently enough to that you don’t personally sue them.
- maxsilver 6y ago
  It's not that class action has a "bad" reputation, just that in the US, it has a 'meaningless' reputation. The punishment is generally so absurdly minor, and the time frame so long, that it feels like it's not even a slap on the wrist for the offender. The popular perception of class action in the US, is something like, "yes, Kitchenpal knowingly sold thousands of Blenders that sparked out and caught fire, and burned like 50 people's houses down. But luckily your class-action lawsuit came through 10 years later with a check worth $3.22 as compensation"
  - egypturnash 6y ago
    "...and multiple millions of dollars to the lawyers who got you this victory"
    - Hnrobert42 6y ago
      Well, the lawyers usually work on contingency. If they don’t win, they worked for 10 years for free. So, the percentage of victory is compensation for their risk and fronting the money to work for a decade. Further, as the parent post points out, the compensation to the individual is low. Even if the lawyers made nothing, what does the plaintiff care? $3 or $6? What does it matter? But the point isn’t compensating the plaintiff. The point is punishing the defendants and creating some kind of deterrent.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    The point of class action is not to make the plaintiffs while with a check for $3.22. The point is punishing the defendants and creating some kind of deterrent. Yes, such lawsuits take too long and inflict too little pain on defendants, but sadly they are all we’ve got.
- StanislavPetrov 6y ago
  If you are suing because you want to recover your 300 Euros, a class-action suit that takes a decade and ends up paying you 5 Euros and results in no substantive change to the policy is a very poor substitute.
  - Hnrobert42 6y ago
    The value in class action lawsuits is as a deterrent to companies. Also, most recipients of the 5 euro awards do literally nothing. The check just shows up. What more do you want? Or more to the point, what alternative do you propose?
- staybailey 6y ago
  Companies like making money and historically class action lawsuits have made it easier for employees or customers to cut into profit margins based on wrongful action by the company. The incentive to join a class action suite was less than each individual filing there own case. Hence the dislike But, as the article perhaps alludes to, the tide may be changing on that due to legal industry automation. If law firms can file nearly identical lawsuites at scale then the incentives can again favor consumers and employees. This may not have happened in this particular case due to courts being unable to scale, but it has happened to companies like DoorDash. See https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-11/doordash-arbitration-blunder%3f_amp=true https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/business/story/...
vkou 6y ago
> The courts can't handle 100,000 individual claims Why not? Bill the loser for court fees. If the cases have merit, the target company will be financially ruined. This seems to be a better deterrent to bad corporate behaviour than a class action suit where the settlement for 100,000 claims is 15 million, where the lawyers keep 99% of it.

tyingq 6y ago

UPS is similar. The process to make a claim for a lost, late, or damaged package is tedious and manual. I imagine that's not a mistake.

orange_tee 6y ago

The actual problem is not easyJet, though. They are complaint to the letter of the law. The problem is the law which is written in a way that allows easyJet to make the claims process as painful as possible. I have gone through this with a lot of stuff, most notoriously when dealing with landlords. On its face the law seems consumer friendly, but only when you try to use it, do you realize that you need to spend months/years wrestling with the company to get your measly few hundred euros back, and you might even need to engage a lawyer. I guess although engaging the lawyer seems optional at first glance, it is really the only way to get anything done.

emteycz 6y ago
> On its face the law seems consumer friendly, but only when you try to use it, do you realize that you need to spend months/years wrestling with the company to get your measly few hundred euros back, and you might even need to engage a lawyer. I don't understand how anyone can fall for this after all this time. It's the case with all law. The politicians are not there for the people.
- Retric 6y ago
  In many case the law as written might actually be consumer friendly, but case law tends to favor corporations which had more money to spend representing themselves. Over time it’s a surprisingly subtle corruption of our legal system.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    I don't think there are many cases of that. Maybe a few, and the law is probably updated already. There is just a handful of honest politicians, what else should we expect?
    - Retric 6y ago
      Food labeling laws and regulations are a solid counter example. Plenty of improvements are possible, but the industry would be in favor of ~zero laws so in effect their all consumer friendly by design. The difference between calling something peanut butter and peanut spread might not seem that important, but it’s those exact invisible laws and regulations that end up being critical.

telesilla 6y ago

Probably just whoever was reading the paperwork on the day. That's an unfortunate turnout for the poster. I've had exactly the same experience but different departure airport and won (flight didn't go, I bought am immediate replacement seat myself, didn't use the one that was reassigned to me so I could get there faster). I use https://refund.me https://refund.me, excellent success rate and very little effort. It would be amazing to see the same rules be followed around the world. It's times like these I have a deep respect for the EU. Hm, does this mean that UK flights won't be subject to this going forward?

Veen 6y ago
The UK Government announced their intention to adopt EU Regulation 261/2004 into UK law (although we've yet to see whether that will actually happen).
- richardwhiuk 6y ago
  The EU Withdrawal Act of 2018 included 261/2004 in UK law.
whimsicalism 6y ago
> refund.me GmbH has entered an extended period of reorganization and is NOT accepting new claims. Seems like they too have thrown in the towel.
- telesilla 6y ago
  That's a shame, I can't imagine how their business isn't profitable. Alternatives seem to be: aireclaim.com click2refund.com flight-delayed.co.uk Others?

jpcooper 6y ago

Travel cancellation insurance is a thing that exists. It would be nice to see a travel cancellation insurance product which pays out based on the following automatically and easily verifiable outcomes: 1. Customer turns up. 2. Plane leaves within a certain range around scheduled time. 3. Plane arrives at destination. 4. Plane arrives at destination within a certain range around the scheduled time. 5. The price of the trip. 6. Weather events make things difficult. Airlines could either integrate or not. Maybe the premiums would have to be higher due to a higher occurrence of payouts, but maybe they wouldn't have to be so high due to the number of claims processing people you now do not have to employ. Maybe I am oversimplifying.

telesilla 6y ago
The EU has strict rules around exactly this. If the flight is outside the rules, you submit the paperwork and wait for a response. I've done this 5 times the last year and won more than the flight cost, even those times I received a hotel and replacement flight. It makes EU flight planners very careful, I imagine, due to the expense of losing an entire flight income and more.
- jpcooper 6y ago
  The author seems not to have been able to claim what he should under these rules.
  - telesilla 6y ago
    Yes I wrote earlier, I had a similar problem that I won on. I think it was bad luck and worth pursuing further.
    - leejo 6y ago
      I did eventually get compensation, the details are in the "Closure" section at the end of the post.
      - 6y ago

uberman 6y ago

Long story short: Guy had flight canceled and wants airlines to have automated refund system. The issue is though that no company I know of really wants an automated easy path to disperse money back to the public. Ever try to collect on an insurance policy?

kirykl 6y ago
Amazon does a pretty good job automating returns. It’s also good enough to be a differentiator when choosing where to buy.
- tacostakohashi 6y ago
  I had an Amazon item that didn't show up / got lost by UPS. The process presented by Amazon for this was pretty silly / tedious: 1) Initially, the tracking page said the item is late, maybe lost, if it doesn't arrive by X date (2-3 days after it was due), check back here to initiate a replacement / refund. 2) I went back on X date to arrange a refund. You click the button, initially it takes you to an automated chat thing that asks is this the item you are asking about (yes), do you want a refund or replacement (refund)... then it hands you over to a human and you have the same conversation again. 3) Finally, the human issued the refund... but as a gift card / credit without asking me. In any case, it was a 5-10 minute process hidden behind both automated and non-automated chats, which is stupid and unnecessary, especially considering that these are the people that invented (patented) 1-click. They knew from their own tracking that it was missing, so it could and should have just been a single button for replace vs refund. I suspect the steps depend on the item / amount involved, some customer risk score, etc, etc, I am sure it's all very elaborate, but in my case it was tedious. Issuing a gift card is consumer-hostile BS too, should be outlawed if you ask me. I paid for something with money, it didn't show up, so I get the money back, simple. If I wanted to buy a gift card, I would.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - massysett 6y ago

umanwizard 6y ago

Tangential question: why do some British people put an “x” at the end of every text, like the author’s mom?

fantalamera 6y ago
The letter X is widely used at the end of text messages and emails to signify a "Kiss". https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/X.html https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/X.html
- js2 6y ago
  That's funny, I've never seen it standalone, so I wouldn't have guessed. I'm used to "xoxo" for hugs and kisses.
alex-yark 6y ago
It's just an informal way of ending a text, sort of signifies a kiss but used amongst friends and family
eplanit 6y ago
X = kiss, O = hug

otterley 6y ago

"Automated claims systems, why don’t airlines have these? They would save money on support staff/legal fees/etc. The could charge a couple of pounds/dollars/euros more per ticket and probably cover all compensation costs. We know that “no win no fee” claims services exist. They know they exist. They know that we know that they exist, so what the fuck are we all doing wasting our time here?" The answer is simple: You automate the things that earn you money. You don't automate the things that make you pay money to others - perhaps with the exception of your supply chain or other resources you need to maintain business continuity. The author is thinking like an engineer, not like a businessperson. Not that there's anything wrong with thinking like an engineer where it's called for, but airlines are profit-seeking businesses.

sp332 6y ago
I thought exactly the same. Avoiding automaton let them bring a whole court system to its knees which meant they could get away with breaking the law.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  No that you said it, court systems should have overuse tariffs, so the people that overwhelm them subside the extra capacity they need.
  - otterley 6y ago
    At least in the U.S., courts already charge filing and other fees, which in these small cases might be more than the potential damages. (Unless you can seek punitive or multiple damages depending on what the law allows.) That's why class actions are often used here, since it would be impractical to file a case on behalf of every injured claimant.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      USA, like UK, has a small claims system too. In theory that makes legal redress less costly (for the complainant and the court system). https://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info.shtml https://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info....

aboringusername 6y ago

In the UK broadband providers have an automatic compensation scheme in the event things go wrong. The thing with law is it's almost impossible to cover 100% of cases with words and letters - so case law is designed to facilitate what applies and what does not (and often gets it 'wrong' according to society). Ideally, there are conditions in which you get automatic compensation, in the form of a payment to your bank (as easily as you give company money they can give it to you). If the tech is there to send a business money so can they send it to me if they don't provide a good service, it's not difficult. We're so advanced with our developments in AI yet so many things are basic and stuck in the past. This shouldn't even be down to airlines - it's a system that does all the work on behalf of the customer and business.

joneholland 6y ago

Rather than booking the replacement flight directly the author should have had easyjet rebook him. The author did no-show on the replacement flight provided by easyJet, and all of the griping will get them nowhere. You can’t take things into your own hands and then expect the company to refund you, the company would have provided the free alternative flight (earlier than the one the next day) and the EU fine had they just talked to a gate agent. I’ve flown hundreds of thousands of miles and had my share of issues like this and you can always sort it out if you do it prior to taking the replacement flight.

VBprogrammer 6y ago
I've had this before. Gate agents told us we had to book online. Online the next available flight was Thursday. No true easyJet representative in the airport on a Sunday evening in a non-base airport. Phoned the call centre and assured that we'd be reimbursed for a replacement flight and reasonable expenses. When back in the UK submitted receipts and told they would only pay for our meal.
- leejo 6y ago
  ^ This. When we got back into the gate (having been sat in the returned plane for over an hour) I checked the available flights - IIRC three seats remained on a flight to Liverpool, and nothing else that would get us closer (our original flight being Manchester). I booked them immediately. The alternative would have been waiting to see an easyJet representative, in an overcrowded gate, two days before Xmas. Those seats would have gone. I've been through Geneva airport enough times to know how it functions and that we were going to get bumped to the next day.
s0rce 6y ago
Good luck with that. I've found gate agents either to not exist, or the 1-2 of them get completely overwhelemed as an entire flight needs to rebook. Passengers who were only connecting to another final destination add further complexity. Obviously the OP took a risk that the airline wouldn't refund his new flight but the alternative of waiting in a giant line or finding a non-existent agent from a budget carrier to hopefully rebook you isn't great either.

renewiltord 6y ago

You have to book through them rather than by yourself. In fact, I'm very surprised he retained the flight back. Usually they cancel your return leg if you no-show the outbound leg. It's shitty stuff from the airlines for sure. But AFAIK, they all do this at this level.

fy20 6y ago
That's not the case with low cost airlines in Europe. Each leg of the journey is on a separate ticket. This also means if you are flying there and back the same day, if there is a delay on the outbound flight and you miss the return flight it's considered a no show, so they don't need to compensate you.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Whacky, I had EasyJet Plus for so long (the £200/yr thing) and flew practically every weekend and didn't know that.

dpedu 6y ago

> Given the original arrival time was delayed by more than three hours we were covered by EU Regulation 261/2004 I had similar situation a couple years ago and ended up using Airhelp.com to obtain my compensation. They took a cut of course but I had to do pretty much nothing beyond sending them my itinerary and I got a bank transfer in a couple of weeks. I am of course unaffiliated.

chrisseaton 6y ago
Right - give them a pretty small cut and they will go after them with techniques they know work and relentlessly because it’s now their money. Why do anything else?

cbanek 6y ago

American Airlines (which flies to Europe and is covered under the EU regulations for flights to/from the EU) doesn't even mention the EU regulations or how to make a claim at all on their website. None. Not a word. You have to make a customer service request as if you were asking a question, and then know all the right things to say. Businesses just aren't optimizing for the things they hate. They'd rather do all they can to hide it and forget to mention it to you, if it weren't illegal (and sometimes, still then). They will only do the letter of the law, and only to go through the motions, and only if the penalties for not are high and the risk of getting caught is equally high.

xchip 6y ago

What a click baity title :/

pydry 6y ago

I tried to make a claim through the courts when EasyJet didn't pay out the amount they were required to under EU law. I didn't get a refund. I didn't get a replacement booking (well, I was offered one leaving after my return flight). I got exactly nothing. The court simply threw out my case because it was "overloaded". I think Easyjet might be exploiting this loophole to avoid paying customers whom they've fucked over. I had another case against a different business which I launched and got thrown out because the courts were overloaded too. The UK courts system appears to be horrendously underautomated. It was a mess of scanned written forms and calling up people to read credit card numbers over the phone. They really should deduct a ton of points on those "ease of doing business" metrics for this mess.

bamboleo 6y ago

I had quite a few flights and trains booked in March and early April. They were all canceled of course. Out of all of them, EasyJet was the only company that let me have an instant refund on their website. Most of the others made me call them (I was on the Alitalia line for 90 minutes, after hours of being flatout rejected from the call queue), some I had to issue a chargeback, and some refunded me in November. One I’m still waiting. I also booked the Bernina Express and the only refund option is to show up at one of their stations in Switzerland I guess. This is to say that most travel companies operate in a similar non-automated fashion because that’s what makes them the most money. EasyJet is far from the exception.

MichaelZuo 6y ago

Perhaps the aviation industry is also in a sub-optimal Nash Equilibrium, and certain types of major changes need to happen en mass.

jancsika 6y ago

I don't know what the right answer is to this problem. But I do know that the right answer to this problem includes a blockchain.

mehrdadn 6y ago

I think I disagree on the flight having been canceled. I'd have assumed the distinguishing factor between a flight cancellation vs. rescheduling isn't the flight number (a flight number seems like an immaterial bookkeeping abstraction?), but rather, whether a replacement flight offers seats to all of the passengers of the first flight. It seems they did this, as they say in their text message. As far as semantics is concerned, this is where it ends for me. Looking at it from a practical standpoint, the company still incurred the same costs of the original flight just at a later time, and they had reserved seats for all the passengers, so it doesn't make sense for them to compensate as if the replacement flight had never taken place at all. [1] Had the author contacted them to let them know he wouldn't be showing up, they could've had a chance to agree and even to give his seat to someone else... but he just decided not to just not show up. At that point it doesn't make sense to get compensated as if the company had just let the seat disappear into thin air (no pun intended). [1] [1] It seems people are misreading my comment to mean I think he shouldn't be compensated at all. I'm not saying he shouldn't be compensated. ("As if" is the key phrase here.) I'm saying any compensation he receives should be for the flight being delayed, not canceled—whatever amount might be appropriate for each.

lmarcos 6y ago
But the replacement flight was scheduled for the next morning... That means that the passenger loses time and money (hotel/food?). Why wouldn't the airline company compensate this?
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  I edited to clarify. I'm not saying the airline shouldn't compensate this. Rather, that the compensation shouldn't be as if the replacement flight never happened—it should be as if the replacement flight did happen. i.e. I'm saying the complaint falls under "I disagree on the amount, I think it's too low" rather than "I disagree on the nature of the event entirely".
- Closi 6y ago
  Airlines do compensate this - Usually in Europe the airline will actually directly arrange the hotel / accommodation and will offer the food in terms of vouchers to spend within the airport, rather than allow passengers to spend and then claim it back. I suspect all this happened in OPs case. If you make your own arrangements then this isn’t usually covered.

HenryBemis 6y ago

Similar experience with Wizz. They said that the flight was delayed (5-6h) due to 'unforeseen circumstances'. When I reached out to them for the €200 they claimed that they will not, as it is was not their fault and for security reasons they cannot disclose to me the 'why'. I got a very close friend working for Wizz. He told me that this is the boilerplate BS email they send to all such requests, to scare them off. Reading it one may thing "oh there may have been a terror-related thing, better not bother the CIA-FBI-NSA-PoPo-MI5-MI6-MI99... and that I should reach out to the responsible regulator and I'd get my money back. Which I did. I included the BS email. I assume the regulator didn't buy the BS email from Wizz and I got paid. 3 months later, but Wizz lying bastards didn't get away with it.

jgalt212 6y ago

cultural quibble. > my partner What per cent of the time is this "romantic, or maybe even life" or "business" partner? When married, the term "spouse" is always preferable. - jgalt's style guide

chrisseaton 6y ago
I think people only say 'partner' when they specifically mean 'romantic not spouse'. I'd say it rarely means 'business partner' these days. People would generally say 'co-founder' or something instead. Are people even technically partners in business anymore? Makes me think of Marley and Scrooge. It generally means 'boyfriend or girlfriend' but over the age of something like 25 when boyfriend or girlfriend starts to sound a little awkward to some people's ears. People get married a lot later these days, or not at all if they don't wish to. Of course people may use it to mean anything they want. But it's simple - if someone refers to their guest as 'partner' do them the courtesy of also using that term.
- jgalt212 6y ago
  > I'd say it rarely means 'business partner' these days. Definitely not the case for professional firms such as management consultancies, accountants, and law firms.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    I think you're thinking of those people saying 'a partner' as in 'she's a partner.' I've literally never heard anyone say she's 'my partner' expecting me to understand that she's also a partner in the same firm as them.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

> potentially catastrophic consequences of the cabin pressure system failing at cruising altitude, I considered that everyone on the plane had been very lucky. The cabin pressurization system failing at cruising altitude is one of the more common types of aircraft incidents. That's why planes are equipped with systems to handle it. While a catastrophic outcome is not impossible, it is exceedingly unlikely. As to the compensation issue, airlines should be required to pay out the compensation automatically, with 3x the compensation automatically due as a penalty if the customer has to make them pay through the courts. This would remove the incentive to make it hard for customers to claim the compensation. Given that I by now unfortunately have a decent understanding of the compensation rules, if I have a claim that I'm confident about and the airline doesn't pay immediately, I'll take it straight to court. If in a jurisdiction where they have to pay the lawyer fees, I'll have a regular lawyer handle it - no need to let an agency take 30% if you know you'll win and a lawyer can make some money (driving up the costs of misbehavior for the airline). For consumer lawsuits you can often sue the airline at your local court, which isn't overloaded.

londons_explore 6y ago
The simple modification to the rules should be "compensation a court finds to have not been properly paid (even if the victim did not request compensation), shall be paid at double the original rate. If the victim cannot be located, the compensation must be paid at triple the original rate to the government". That means compensation shall not require the victim having to ask for it. It also means if the airline claims they can't track down the victim to make payment, they have to pay extra.

ultim8k 6y ago

Airliners suck big time. I'm looking forward for a modern, honest, client-friendly airliner that will force everyone else out of business.

threwawaysoff 6y ago
Virgin, if they get investment, strategy, and ambition. In Heathrow, they said more than "hello" to and knew so many vendors and regular workers, and even showed me how to find flights across carriers on their terminal. They were so phreak'n cool.

beervirus 6y ago

Lawyers have a financial incentive to automate these things. Airlines have a financial incentive NOT to automate them.

londons_explore 6y ago

I like the fact these compensation rules have massive loopholes. If they didn't, I think it would more than double the price of some tickets. Sometimes I fly hundreds of miles for 10 euros (all taxes and fees included). There is no way a business can offer a refund of 300 euros if that flight is delayed. Compensation should be an optional feature - I should be able to spend an extra 30 euros on my flight to get compensation in case of delay. Ask me when I book. Just like other insurance.

fy20 6y ago
I know that Wizz Air do something like that. You can pay some amount, and if the flight is delayed by more than 1 hour they will give you a voucher for the ticket price (I think just the base price) back. The thing is when do you ever just spend €10 on a flight? Once you add in checked luggage, the priority carry on so you can take more than a packet of crisps onboard, assigned seats so you can sit next to whoever else you are flying with, and extra legroom so you don't end up with leg injuries, you are paying closer to €100. These companies are making serious bank.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  I never buy any of the extras. I hate checking luggage and I'm fine with just taking a laptop and a change of clothes pretty much anywhere, which comfortably fits under the seat in front of me. Looking around flights, I suspect at least half of passengers do the same as me.

threwawaysoff 6y ago

Btw, an aircraft that may revolutionize the viability of regional and charter flights because of its low capex and opex costs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Celera_500L https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Celera_500L Mentour Pilot's assessment: https://youtu.be/CN4EKZHYVaE https://youtu.be/CN4EKZHYVaE

noxvilleza 6y ago

Slightly different but similarly annoying situation happened to me. Was flying back from Birmingham to Berlin, via Dusseldorf (with Eurowings, booked via Lufthansa). There was bad weather at Dusseldorf so the outgoing flight was delayed by an hour or so. Knowing that any passenger arriving at Dusseldorf would arrive at ~8:30pm, and thus miss their connecting flights for the day - they still insisted on people flying there. We arrived, and were stranded - obviously. Their agents closed the booth and tried to leave, but after a bunch of discussion they then wanted to put people on buses or trains to various parts of Germany overnight. A few of us demanded accommodation and ended up staying in the nearby hotel. After like 10 emails back and forth over the next week with the airline they ended up refusing to pay compensation, so I raised a claim with the consumer arbitration board in the country I live (soep-online.de). Two days later I get an email from the airline saying they'll pay out. It seems so utterly scummy that they try lie and deceive consumers out of their rights - how are there not strict punishments in situations where airlines mislead and screw over consumers?

efitz 6y ago

The legitimacy of governments and of courts is primarily by belief - eg the courts are legitimate because most people believe that they are. There seem to be a lot of people out there who don’t understand this concept and don’t understand that western societies are not immune to mass unrest or violence or even insurrection. In particular it seems like courts and legislatures are failing at their most basic tasks in many western countries. I hope that in Europe that the legislatures or the courts intervene precipitously in these kinds of widespread fraud by corporations; a few executives going to jail as an example to others would quickly correct the situation. Otherwise this eats away at the credibility of the government in general and you just see more lawlessness.

disabled 6y ago

Airlines need to be extremely wary about automating things. This is an extremely sensitive matter, as it involves movement of people and people's lives. I have been on a Viber travel group supporting people trying to get into Croatia. It consists of many American citizens. Anyways, over the past couple of days, Delta/United/Iberia have been using artificial intelligence (AI) to /automatically update/ where people can or cannot go, based off of government websites. Instead of having proper staff to look over these requirements, they use AI to screw over their customers, as the AI has errors in its interpretations for documentation required by travelers. There have been a few people on this Viber group who have been wrongly denied boarding, right before their Christmas holiday, due to inconsistencies in the interpretations of the AI (multiple errors, type 1 and type 2), from the company Smartvel. Sadly, people of color have been the ones getting stopped more and denied boarding in the US. This is the technology that I am talking about: https://www.smartvel.com/covid19-entry-restrictions/ https://www.smartvel.com/covid19-entry-restrictions/ This is the API plugin on Delta.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.delta.com/us/en/plan-your-next-trip/where-we-fly https://www.delta.com/us/en/plan-your-next-trip/where-we-fly This is the API plugin on United.com for Smartvel (fill out the to: Croatia from: USA): https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/restrictions-map.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/restrictions-map... Ironically, if you booked online using KLM.com (affiliated with Delta but a European airline) or Lufthansa.com (affiliated with United but a European airline) you were not subjected to this problem, even though it was the same flight through a codeshare arrangement via the airlines. It really is inhumane. While people may not want people flying due to the coronavirus (honestly, I don't but Croatia does need the business and I want them to see my country too), these people had their plans made and their holidays were ruined over AI. It is cruel. By the way, I am a dual US|Croatian citizen, and if Croatia allows third country nationals, such as Americans in, then I think they should be allowed in. Also, if you spend 14 days in Croatia as an American, you can basically enter the EU without issue, but you may want to check https://reopen.europa.eu/ https://reopen.europa.eu/ for entry restrictions, country-to-country. It is a loophole.

aj7 6y ago

Moderators, please.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

aarchi 6y ago

Is there a service that provides crowd-sourced data on airplane reliability by registration number? The registration number is probably only revealed just before boarding though, so that would limit its utility. > we could see the registration number: G-EZRU. The exact same plane that had flown out of Geneva, had both its pressure systems fail, had been known to have other problems in its service history

boublepop 6y ago

I honestly believe that this is because it’s cheaper for them to make arrangements with the “no win no fee”-firms than to create a proper process. When you get the first couple of “technically a lie but an excusable lie”-responds they pick out a couple of layers of complains each, then when you reach out the the “no win no fee” I’m certain their first 1-2 layers back to you are just steps in the same process “you might have a case but could take this small payment” “you have a case but it will take for ever, here’s a slightly higher offer” and these can be quickly negotiated because they just split the damage with the airline. They have a multilevel yearlong process of starving our customers from extremely reasonable compensations, which they have deviously optimized so they can sell tickets at what? Maybe 10-20% lower rates and steal the high-volumes low rate market. I think it’s naive to believe that this is all progressing without a level of collaboration between them and the airline that is at least unethical and potentially illegal.