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More Than 70 West Point Cadets Accused of Cheating in Academic Scandal

196 points by KoftaBob 6y ago

cbozeman 6y ago
If they all made the same error on the test, in the same way, they're almost certainly all guilty - except apparently for two of them. Every single one of these people should be dismissed or resign. They are simply not officer material. The Honor Code is very clear. You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. There simply cannot be second chances. Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned.
- tillinghast 6y ago
  > The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned. That would be 1976, when all 153 fourth-year cadets were expelled. I guess we're all enlightened now. From the article: "Nearly all of those who admitted guilt have been allowed to remain at the academy on the condition that they complete a rehabilitation program that includes meeting with a mentor and after-hours classes about the honor system and the importance of being a better leader..." A "rehabilitation program". Not only should these cadets be expelled, but so should the clowns running this program.
  - 5555624 6y ago
    > In 2015, Ophardt explained, the academy made changes to the honor code allowing for second chances. Why did they change this? Did the other US military academies (USAFA, USNA, USCGA) change their codes/concepts, as well? The Honor Code is (was?) straightforward and if you broke it, you were gone.
    - teorema 6y ago
      For whatever reason, the stance toward academic dishonesty has changed everywhere in higher education for reasons that aren't clear to me. The two other institutions I taught at used to have very strict policies about it and then at some point they became laxer in a similar way. It used to be a no warnings policy, and then became more wishy washy. I always assumed it was to be more realistic, in that many students were being granted exceptions of sorts. There also can be a lot of grey area with cheating. Overall my impression was that some lawyers recommended the change to avoid liability. But I really don't know.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        Its completely clear to me. If you kick out a first-year student, you've deprived the university of the next three years of income from that student. We've allowed money to become the guiding principle of higher education, rather than ability. The sad truth no one wants to admit to, is that most people don't need to go to college, and frankly, if we were go to back just 60 years to the rigor of those curriculums, most people couldn't hack it, either.
        neapolisbeach 6y ago
        That doesn't really apply in this case-- for service academies student's are all on a full-scholarship and are paid a stipend. If anything it would be cheaper to kick them out. But that is at odds with the goal (competent service-members).
    - gnopgnip 6y ago
      A zero tolerance policy often has unwanted outcomes. Because the punishment is so extreme even for minor problems it isn't enforced that way in practice, unwritten policies are used. It means that problems cannot be corrected, you can't learn from mistakes
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >The last time this happened It's just the last time they were caught en masse. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that this has happened time and again...
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > > The last time this happened > It's just the last time they were caught en masse. Yeah that's what happened here, so that's exactly what “the last time this happened” means. When you develop a system that can successfully impose consequences for behavior without detecting it, let us know.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >Yeah that's what happened here, so that's exactly what “the last time this happened” means. Well, hardly "exactly", as it also implies the cheating last happened at that time, which is, I'm willing to bet, not true... >When you develop a system that can successfully impose consequences for behavior without detecting it, let us know That's trivial and doesn't need inventing. You just impose consequences without detection. Not fair, but trivial to implement. But how about better detection? If the "last time" they were caught was 1975, then something is surely amiss...
    - neffy 6y ago
      Well, the only time you can really prove cheating, is when people get the same wrong answers....
  - ejstronge 6y ago
    > That would be 1976, when all 153 fourth-year cadets were expelled. I guess we're all enlightened now Actually, the majority if the 1976 participants were allowed to return to West Point: > Ninety-two of those involved in the scandal were later readmitted as cadets and allowed to graduate after accepting a Pentagon amnesty that required them to complete a year of “useful service” away from the academy. See https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheating.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheat...
- noahmbarr 6y ago
  > Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. How did you come to this conclusion? I believe in consequences, but I am neither a professional educator nor a veteran of any armed forces. I would defer to the head of this institution to arrive at an appropriate decision.
  - 535188B17C93743 6y ago
    I'd prefer to not give second chances to the servicepeople being afforded a $400k education on our dime to cheat and lie only to control the most advanced weapon systems on the planet. But that's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - abtom 6y ago
      Well the standard for controlling the most powerful country aren't too high so this shouldn't be a problem either.
      - chokeartist 6y ago
        You're referring to the civilian aspect of control - which are elected officials. DOD executes orders from the National Command Authority (NCA), which is in effect the civilian-to-military control interface for military orders. You are free to debate the quality of the civilian control aspect (President), but I personally draw the line at the military domain. You want no variance in that part of the system. Otherwise the entire concept of recursive control ultimately residing in the hands of a civilian is questionable.
  - smileysteve 6y ago
    The easy reasoning, is that on the field of battle, there are no do-overs * You don't know the math and people die * You cheat and you create an international incident. You either go to jail or people die because of the decisions you make.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > > Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. [...] > I would defer to the head of this institution to arrive at an appropriate decision. Blind faith in institutions here (and anywhere) is what enables mass institutional failure. Whether it's producing subpart military officers and the all the negative consequences that has, or the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, or a slide toward tyranny in representative political institutions.
- unishark 6y ago
  > Every single one of these people should be dismissed or resign. They are simply not officer material. The Honor Code is very clear. You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. Yeah but since 2015 the rules have stated you can get a second chance. So it would not be fair or ethical to retroactively change the punishment now.
  - washadjeffmad 6y ago
    As an honor code, it's implied that you not commit a willful infraction with the second chance in mind. Intent to follow the spirit of an honor code is as important as following it. Abusing the system because you know you get one free pass is an invitation to cheat until caught, which is unfair to everyone else. In reality, needing to use your second chance is already failure. If you can't internalize that, admit to it, and volunteer to step down, then you aren't the type of person who deserved a second chance.
- cpascal 6y ago
  > The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned. If you're referring to the 1976 scandal that's not completely true. Yes they were dismissed, but a large number of them were given a second chance. The 1976 scandal involved 150 cadets but 92 cadets were readmitted after completing year of useful service as stipulated by the Pentagon. [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheating.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheat...
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  Given the sheer number of instances where the higher ups in the military have lied, especially claiming they had no involvement in a problem; letting the shit roll downhill (as the expression goes) until it finds someone so low they can't blame anyone below them.... I find it ironic that being caught lying once is considered something that proves you're not officer material. That is, of course, it's the "caught" part, because it seems rare that anyone higher up is ever actually caught for anything; that's what the scapegoats are for. To be very clear, I appreciate the military and all those men and women that serve in it. I just think it's ridiculous to think that they are of a higher moral caliber than the rest of the population. They're people, just like you and me. And learning from your mistakes is part of being human. You can't learn from a mistake if there's never second chances.
  - VLM 6y ago
    > I find it ironic that being caught lying once is considered something that proves you're not officer material. There seems no controversy that the middle management era of staff duty seems designed to filter out good officers and keep the worst or at least keep the folks unable to escape. Their point of view is if you start with a better pool of O-1 then as the good officers are eliminated on the march upward in rank, forcing the worst O-1 to none the less be better officers at the start will result in better O-4 range officers which eventually, in theory, will someday result in better O-9 officers. Remember unlike corporations, the military promotes from within, so todays 2nd Lts will literally be the commanding generals in about 25 years. Most corporations do not promote from within, or rarely do, and life long careers are dead in corporate world, so there's no ethical or moral argument in trying to make superior paper filing clerks today so as to get a better CEO in forty years. Its also worth considering that there's a peculiar form of hazing or abuse of junior military personnel where "caught" is really a combo of intelligence testing and social skills testing where at least one is required to pass. The reason for a baroquely complex process to take leave is to select for personnel who are some mixture of extremely smart able to outthink the opposition or good at social skills to schmooze successfully (which is a military intel or military police or green beret skill...). There's a power law distribution of importance where almost all decisions are not "newsworthy". Technically its an honor violation to fill out the wrong leave form and obtain the wrong signature in the wrong box and put it in the wrong mailbox, its an IQ and/or social skills test or hazing for juniors to avoid situations like that. In theory the kids are supposed to be selected via that process to be smart enough and observant enough to avoid making dumb mistakes when it actually counts. In practice once in a long while psychopaths get thru the process and bend the hazing to more self serving purposes, LOL, and THEN that stuff makes the news, not unlike a lot of corporate internal politics. Or more explicitly, you're supposed to not "get caught" technically AWOL because you're supposed to be smart enough to read the policy book and/or friendly enough with the "old timer" O-2 who's been there an entire year before you, such that you file your paperwork properly and avoid being technically AWOL. With the hope that someday if you make it to O-9 rank, or perhaps earlier, you'll have absorbed via osmosis enough written regs and adopted a hopefully moral culture that when you have to make an important decision you won't screw up.
- cies 6y ago
  > You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. Try banking, big business, CIA/NSA. We need honest/prudent/righteous cannon fodder!
  - cies 6y ago
    Oops: forgot politics. How could I.
- kome 6y ago
  It's strange you want pure and moral men in the most immoral business there is, war. USA are producing AND acquitting war criminals literally all the time...
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Because a moral man forced into an immoral situation will try to make the choice that causes the minimal amount of suffering to achieve the goal. All war is immoral. Always, all the time. You're depriving someone of their life - their future. I'd rather someone with a conscious be required to make those decisions than someone without.
- mdoms 6y ago
  Ah yes, the US military, famously upstanding and honourable. Not at all responsible for atrocity after atrocity after atrocity.
- Bakary 6y ago
  Is honesty the biggest factor in having competent officers, or is it courage/tactical understanding/craftiness/resistance to stress etc.? (Honestly asking) The notion of honesty and moral character seems at odds with empire building
  - AnHonestComment 6y ago
    How so? I believe the British authors who spoke of their “duty to enlighten savages” and similar — they seemed incredibly honest in their racism. They viewed it as a genuinely noble pursuit of building a better mankind through enlightened empire. They were certainly more honest than the US baizuo, who were called lying foxes by Malcolm X. Beyond that, honesty is probably the highest priority for a general: he has staff to be crafty, tactical, and brave. What he needs is the ability to coordinate that staff effectively, which can only be done when problems are honestly communicated. This is true even at more junior levels: the officer is out in the field with you, but let’s be honest... he’s probably not point on kicking down doors. Even at that level, he needs direct and honest communication from door kickers so he can coordinate the operation, re-assign people during fire fights, and co-ordinate with base staff, like status updates and requests for backup.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  The really concerning bit is that the cadets tried to cheat on a core course. I mean, West Point is an engineering school, where fluency in math is an absolute requirement. Did they really think they could get away with no math in the followup courses? How stupid can you be, trying to subvert the teaching?
cs702 6y ago
As I was reading this, this is the picture that popped in my mind's eye: ^ | | _ /\ | \/ \/\/\__ _ Trust in | \_/ \ institutions | | | | | | | +----------------------> 2018 2019 2020 Hopefully this imagined picture is inaccurate.
- Veen 6y ago
  Individuals cheating and lying is to be expected. Trust in institutions is damaged when they get away with it. The most damaging aspect of this story is that the cheats are being allowed to continue on the course.
  - cheschire 6y ago
    Especially when one considers the opportunities they would get later in life with that secret decoder ring. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west-point/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west...
  - qntty 6y ago
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating didn't do anything to change my opinion. If anything, it made me hopeful to know that people seem to naturally resist participating in poorly designed institutions even if they don't share my bigger picture view of them.
    - pc86 6y ago
      You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.
      - 6y ago
adamnemecek 6y ago
Why is this such a big deal?
- djohnston 6y ago
  Almost 70 officer candidates engaging in conduct unbecoming of an officer at one of the most famous schools in the country*.
  - credit_guy 6y ago
    Why the asterisk? Among the military academies in the US, I think only Annapolis is anything close to the name recognition of West Point.
    - djohnston 6y ago
      I had originally written "world", but I have no idea what sort of international rep US military academies have. They are undeniably good engineering schools, but less accessible to int'l students.
- resist_futility 6y ago
  You generally don't want people that cheat, lie and can't pass calculus in charge of the largest military in the world
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Also US military is not the largest military in the world.
    - derwiki 6y ago
      Straw man? And yes not the largest by headcount but widely considered the most powerful military in the world.
altdatathrow 6y ago
Just emulating the commander in chief.
claydavisss 6y ago
Is this much worse than sharing assignment answers, which literally 100% of students do?
motohagiography 6y ago
Those of us too stupid to cheat end up working for the ones with the sort of low cunning to do it, creating a layer of compromised people with an infinite demand for anything that will relieve their imposter syndrome and moralize or temporarily redeem the nagging shame. Hard to wonder why we have a culture war.
- DFHippie 6y ago
  I want to upvote this some more.
sizzzzlerz 6y ago
After successfully navigating almost 4 years at West Point, these idiots risk everything for one single exam. Ignoring the Honor Code violations, their actions demonstrate they simply are not fit to become officers as their decision making skills are severely compromised.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Except this is how a lot of them navigated it/navigated getting there (as they are first years). I don't think this is their first time, other than being caught.
- branweb 6y ago
  the cadets — all but one of whom are first-years... Please read more closely.
johnhenry 6y ago
When we look at the behavior of the Commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces to set an example and our students and military follow that example, we cannot be surprised.
- branweb 6y ago
  I seriously doubt a bunch of first-year cadets with a looming calculus exam sat around in their dorms thinking "what would Trump do?". Yours is one several comments here expressing this sentiment, and aside from what it says about your capacity for independent thought, it illustrates an inability--all too pervasive these days--to conceive of any issue in non-trumpian terms.
  - altdatathrow 6y ago
    Trump has set a precedent for what is acceptable behavior of public servants and the lasting damage will take decades to undo. He pardoned someone convicted of war crimes. He's convinced hundreds of sitting governors, represetnatives, and senators to openly object to and instill distrust in the integrity of elections. He's publicly questioned and disparaged the integrity of nearly every government institution from the military to intelligence agencies to the IRS. So, yes, we're viewing this in Trumpian terms because there's a very clear link to eroding trust in government institutions.
    - anoonmoose 6y ago
      so you blame gerald ford for the 1976 west point cheating scandal? or do you think it was a time-delayed nixon effect?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - CamperBob2 6y ago
        If the examples set by our leaders were irrelevant or inconsequential, we wouldn't need leaders at all, only managers.
npalli 6y ago
Fascinating that this kind of cheating happened in 1976 [1] at which point it was only the second most serious cheating incident. The first being from 1951 when 90 of 100 students were expelled or resigned. https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/08/archives/more-than-90-cadets-at-west-point-face-charges-of-cheating-on-a.html https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/08/archives/more-than-90-cad...
oefrha 6y ago
As a "math guy" I was more than once put into the uncomfortable position of being asked to help with problems on calculus take-home exams. Given the utter mathematical cluelessness I've observed in the average American college student, even at top schools, I wouldn't be surprised if cheating on math exams has always been rampant. For every busted incident there are probably a hundred or a thousand more that went undetected.
- wil421 6y ago
  Did you try to help them or just point out their utter mathematical cluelessness?
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    Help people out on calculus take home exams? Mind as well direct them to Discord where there’s plenty of help.
keiferski 6y ago
Anyone know if studying ancient Spartan training methods is a part of the West Point curriculum? The Spartan boy, learned only the basics, according to Plutarch, such as music and mathematics. Their principal training is a military one, often even crossing moral boundaries, such as learning how to steal without getting caught. The philosophy was that, in case of a war, a soldier might have to steal food in order to survive. The main key point here is that, when a boy was caught, he was not punished for his act of stealing, but for being caught! The Spartan youth had their favorite "game" of stealing food or other possessions from servants (Greek: είλωτες, helotes). A well-known story that proves the Spartan training and loyalty is this: Once, a 13 year old Spartan boy stole a fox from a village near his camp. Alas, a trainer found him and asked him what he was doing off campus. The boy had seen the trainer and had hidden the fox beneath his cloth. As the boy said nothing, the trainer insisted. The fox, still alive, beneath the boy's cloth, started scratching him, in order to escape. While doing that, the boy continued to deny the stealing until the wounds suffered by the fox killed him. https://www.ancient.eu/article/342/the-spartan-education/ https://www.ancient.eu/article/342/the-spartan-education/
- Balgair 6y ago
  ACOUP had a very good bit on Sparta and it's 'mirage' here: https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p... As Devereaux puts it on Spartan child-rearing: "To sum up: far from being some ideal system of child-rearing, as Xenophon might have it, the Spartan agoge appears functionally identical to modern systems which use trauma to condition child soldiers." The whole series is a great and very deep dive into Sparta and the summation is clear: If Sparta still existed, we'd all invade to stop the horror.
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    Only if they had diamonds and oil and other important resources. "Sparta, the new Angola!"
- sa46 6y ago
  The helmet in the West Point emblem is the helmet of the Greek goddess Athena. I suspect any Spartan influence is incidental and superficial. > The committee began with the creation of an emblem that consisted of a sword, a universal symbol of war, and the helmet of Pallas Athena. Athena, a fully armed mythological goddess, is associated with the arts of war, and her helmet signifies wisdom and learning. http://usheraldicregistry.com/index.php?n=Registrations.20081014A http://usheraldicregistry.com/index.php?n=Registrations.2008...
jsperson 6y ago
For all the folks doubting the decision making here, unless you know specifics, I suggest that the system is working well. Years ago I worked very closely with the current Commandant of West Point BG Buzzard. I know him to be a man of honor. Based on my experience working with him and other quality officers during my enlistment, I can assure you that they are experienced, highly educated (BG Buzzard has a masters from Harvard), and have a good sense of the broader impacts of their decisions.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
godelzilla 6y ago
If these kids can't unquestioningly follow directions on a pointless and outdated mission, how will the ever be officers?
aj7 6y ago
As I’ve said about 4 different times on Twitter, always in the context of Pompeo, “West Point Ain’t Cal Tech.” Cheat on a calculus exam?
- tzs 6y ago
  > “West Point Ain’t Cal Tech.” It would be funnier as "Westpoint Ain't Cal Tech".
  - aj7 6y ago
    My Mom was a HS English teacher.
dannykwells 6y ago
People saying they should be expelled: 1. They are mostly first years (this was a Calculus 1 course). 2. They will go through rehabilitation 3. West Point instituted second chances in 2015, not just for this group. 4. Together implying that they will have plenty of time to prove that this was a one time thing, or not. Compassion and vulnerability are also important parts of leadership: leaders that can admit they made a mistake, perhaps even acted selfishly, and reflect on that behavior and avoid it in the future are better than those who cannot. This is the "new" way of leadership now, and personally, I am all for it, compared to the "old" style of pure hierarchy, repressed emotion, violence + fear as motivators, etc.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  Given that turnbacks and rehabs have been a thing for years, it is probably working out the way the Army hopes. I got in trouble a few times in the Army and there was a lot of effort to "rehab" me. When I got in trouble as an NCO, the whole point of my punishment was to make me a better NCO. That's what they said and it seemed that's what they were trying to do.
wildermuthn 6y ago
I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances. It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying/cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying/cheating. What starts out as a trivial lie must be covered up with larger more intricate lies, moving from something accidental or thoughtless to something intentional and deliberate. The cover-up and defense, often bringing friends into the mix, turns toxic really quickly. This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner. My father also went to a service academy, and often after catching me in a lie would say, “I’m mad at you about lying, but I’m ever madder you were dumb enough to get caught!” My dad is one of the most moral men I’ve ever met, and I only just now connected the dots here with regard to a zero-toleration honor code. I suspect the 2015 change was a practical rather than principled change: to make it easier to catch and correct violations instead of letting them fester and spread. In some ways the service academies are a giant experiment in human character. Humans naturally lie, cheat, and steal in order to survive and protect their own tribe (i.e., go to war). Can you change that? Not really. But you can create a culture like that. The change, as ironic as it may seem, may do a better job of creating that kind of culture by attacking the tendency to dig deeper holes.
- fbelzile 6y ago
  I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature. Depending on which degree you were working on, there was often just way too much to do with the time given. The "academic wing" wouldn't coordinate with the "military wing" and we'd end up having a slew of inspections alongside midterms. I remember getting caught skipping out on military training on a Saturday (which was just a day of lectures, easy to slip out after attendance) to catch up on homework. At the same time, an officer went through the dorms to ensure nobody was skipping. I was caught in my room and spent the next two weeks having to wear an uncomfortable uniform all day and reporting to do drill every morning. Obviously, choosing to cheat academically is way worse than skipping a Saturday of lectures, but if the system is designed to break you, it shouldn't be impossible to recover from.
iridium_core 6y ago
These tests should have been taken in-person. Online testing is fundamentally an insecure medium prone to fraud.
- tzs 6y ago
  Their honor system is supposed to make how the test is administered irrelevant, so why did that not work should be the fundamental question, I think. Honor systems can work. A well known example is Caltech, where almost all exams are take home exams which students typically take alone in their room or in some other isolated place. Caltech may have an advantage in this because the classes are hard and it gets harder for you each year. If you need to and successfully do cheat, at least in a class that is at all relevant to your field, you are quite likely to flounder in subsequent years. So it may not be that Caltech students follow the Honor system because they are actually more honorable than most--it may be because they are smart enough to realize that cheating isn't really going to help them.
  - buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    Why are you assuming the students from Caltech follow the honor system and don't cheat? Seems incredibly likely that a good portion of them do cheat on take home exams.
KingMachiavelli 6y ago
For a college as selective as West Point, I'm surprised so many students had to cheat on a Calculus test.
- mediaman 6y ago
  Seriously. That's what surprises me about a lot of cheating: really? Cheating on this material? Why not at least wait to cheat when it really counts, on something very difficult to do without cheating? This form of cheating just seems lazy.
- cafard 6y ago
  a) They are selected for a variety of qualities, and mathematical competence weighs only so much, I suppose. b) They have many duties that eat up time and energy, and no doubt make it harder to study than it would be at a standard university.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    I wonder why West Point combines academics and military training at the same time. Why not doing them one after the other?
    - cafard 6y ago
      Historical reasons, but I don't know enough about this to say what they were. I infer that some of it may have had to do with the more uneven level of secondary schools in the US, as compared to the UK--where Sandhurst has a much shorter period of study (doesn't it)--or I suppose France/St. Cyr.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        Yes most people turn up to Sandhurst having already completed a full degree at a normal civilian university.
        6y ago
confidantlake 6y ago
There has been a lot of talk about the ethics side of it. But another side that is also disturbing is that they would need to cheat to pass the class. West point is supposed to be an elite institution. Maybe the admissions processes is also compromised?
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  The other point that no one seems to be bringing up is that cheating on an introductory calculus test is a nonsensical thing to do. These aren't MBA students, they're engineering students, right? Everything in a technical math curriculum builds on what came before. If you have to start cheating that early, the only rational thing to do is to admit you're not in the right program and drop out gracefully. Academic ethics aside, cheating at this level is just plain bad judgment. No one who has to cheat in Calc I is going to get through Calc II without having to do the same thing, over and over.
jere 6y ago
There was a post on the AITA subreddit recently about a father who finds out his son has reported his friends for cheating on a math final. The dad had no problem with cheating whatsoever but took issue with the actions of the son. Whether or not this story is true, it reveals that 99% of people on twitter feel cheating is completely acceptable. In school I was under the impression cheating was relatively rare and no one proud of it, but I learned that I'm really out of touch. https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit/status/1340437223594979334 https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit/status/1340437223594979334
- impendia 6y ago
  Here is the actual reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/kg8cbx/aita_for_telling_my_son_to_grow_up_and_accept_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/kg8cbx/aita_... The top voted comment, with around 20K upvotes, rips into the father: "Instead of berating your son, you should be proud of what he did and support him by explaining that doing right is not always easy but necessary. You should be talking to administrators at his school about the culture they have inculcated." In contrast, the top voted comment which defends the son has only around 2,400 upvotes. Can't speak to "99% of people on twitter", but looks like only 10-15% of people on Reddit.
  - jere 6y ago
    Yea I didn't link the reddit thread since the post itself was deleted, but indeed reddit seems to lean towards anti-cheating and twitter seems to lean towards pro-cheating (well, anti-snitching if nothing else). Really curious about how that dramatic difference developed.
    - VLM 6y ago
      reddit is a karma farm, so find the bandwagon and push it as extreme as possible to get those meaningless internet points. Note this applies to anything controversial on reddit especially politics. Only one extreme position will be allowed in all discussions in the presence of karma farming. Twitter is somewhat more conversational.
technonerd 6y ago
I 'cheated' on all my Air Force tests, D: all of the above and whatever answer that was longest. Like you could just skim the answers and select the longest one and move onto the next one without reading the question. What a horrible way to teach someone.
hnracer 6y ago
At least in my cohort and my university, cheating was endemic and done by almost everyone on every assignment. Not cheating was a significant disadvantage. I didn't ever hear of anyone getting caught which I find astonishing, since I'm sure the graders were faced with multiple identical answers. Maybe because the subjects were quantitative, there was less scope for plagiarism detection? Or maybe they just didn't really care, or they didn't want the administrative trouble. I'm not sure.
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forgingahead 6y ago
Seems like they'd be a good fit for politics instead! This is obviously made with (some) jest, but it is fascinating we pride ourselves on being societies where "the military answers to the civilian authorities", but we have nowhere near the same standards for civilian leaders as we apparently expect for military folk.
csours 6y ago
Long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUhNIOGhPus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUhNIOGhPus Link to study itself: https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/lying-to-ourselves-dishonesty-in-the-army-profession/ https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/lying-to-ourselves-dishonesty... Top level point: Lying in the Army has been normalized due to required attestations that are likely impossible to accomplish, leading to 'pencil whipping'. I don't think that this is at all unique to the Army and I see this kind of thing where I work as well.
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pklausler 6y ago
To what extent was having a Commander in Chief with no honor a factor in the breakdown in honor among the cadets?
- anoonmoose 6y ago
  in my opinion, it was almost certainly not a factor whatsoever and suggesting that it was is a silly way to try to score points and/or start a fight
d33lio 6y ago
Seems like they've figured out the best political trick to "winning" in international geo-politics and war? Anyone who's honest with the nature of humanity knows that complete nuclear proliferation will never work to bring peace on earth, because basic game theory tells us at least one side will just cheat and keep some hidden nukes ;)
bigpumpkin 6y ago
Did nobody out of the 70 realize the answer they were copying from was wrong. West Point should look at its math education in addition to the integrity of its cadets.
cosmiccatnap 6y ago
You mean to tell me that an academy that is commonly used as a boarding school for the wealthy and the privileged spawned a culture that seems to suggest they thought they could get away with anything and we're clearly better than other people? I'm shocked, I can't imagine where they might have learned that from.
lovetocode 6y ago
If they cheated then they should be kicked out. No second chances. They are training to be officers in the military, many of which will be responsible for the lives of others.
psalminen 6y ago
I didn't know about West Point's honor code, and found it ironic. At my university, in physics at least, it was a loud secret that all ROTC students shared answers for previous years testsand homeworks.

196 points by KoftaBob 6y ago

If they all made the same error on the test, in the same way, they're almost certainly all guilty - except apparently for two of them. Every single one of these people should be dismissed or resign. They are simply not officer material. The Honor Code is very clear. You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. There simply cannot be second chances. Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned.

tillinghast 6y ago
> The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned. That would be 1976, when all 153 fourth-year cadets were expelled. I guess we're all enlightened now. From the article: "Nearly all of those who admitted guilt have been allowed to remain at the academy on the condition that they complete a rehabilitation program that includes meeting with a mentor and after-hours classes about the honor system and the importance of being a better leader..." A "rehabilitation program". Not only should these cadets be expelled, but so should the clowns running this program.
- 5555624 6y ago
  > In 2015, Ophardt explained, the academy made changes to the honor code allowing for second chances. Why did they change this? Did the other US military academies (USAFA, USNA, USCGA) change their codes/concepts, as well? The Honor Code is (was?) straightforward and if you broke it, you were gone.
  - teorema 6y ago
    For whatever reason, the stance toward academic dishonesty has changed everywhere in higher education for reasons that aren't clear to me. The two other institutions I taught at used to have very strict policies about it and then at some point they became laxer in a similar way. It used to be a no warnings policy, and then became more wishy washy. I always assumed it was to be more realistic, in that many students were being granted exceptions of sorts. There also can be a lot of grey area with cheating. Overall my impression was that some lawyers recommended the change to avoid liability. But I really don't know.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      Its completely clear to me. If you kick out a first-year student, you've deprived the university of the next three years of income from that student. We've allowed money to become the guiding principle of higher education, rather than ability. The sad truth no one wants to admit to, is that most people don't need to go to college, and frankly, if we were go to back just 60 years to the rigor of those curriculums, most people couldn't hack it, either.
      - neapolisbeach 6y ago
        That doesn't really apply in this case-- for service academies student's are all on a full-scholarship and are paid a stipend. If anything it would be cheaper to kick them out. But that is at odds with the goal (competent service-members).
  - gnopgnip 6y ago
    A zero tolerance policy often has unwanted outcomes. Because the punishment is so extreme even for minor problems it isn't enforced that way in practice, unwritten policies are used. It means that problems cannot be corrected, you can't learn from mistakes
- coldtea 6y ago
  >The last time this happened It's just the last time they were caught en masse. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that this has happened time and again...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > > The last time this happened > It's just the last time they were caught en masse. Yeah that's what happened here, so that's exactly what “the last time this happened” means. When you develop a system that can successfully impose consequences for behavior without detecting it, let us know.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Yeah that's what happened here, so that's exactly what “the last time this happened” means. Well, hardly "exactly", as it also implies the cheating last happened at that time, which is, I'm willing to bet, not true... >When you develop a system that can successfully impose consequences for behavior without detecting it, let us know That's trivial and doesn't need inventing. You just impose consequences without detection. Not fair, but trivial to implement. But how about better detection? If the "last time" they were caught was 1975, then something is surely amiss...
  - neffy 6y ago
    Well, the only time you can really prove cheating, is when people get the same wrong answers....
- ejstronge 6y ago
  > That would be 1976, when all 153 fourth-year cadets were expelled. I guess we're all enlightened now Actually, the majority if the 1976 participants were allowed to return to West Point: > Ninety-two of those involved in the scandal were later readmitted as cadets and allowed to graduate after accepting a Pentagon amnesty that required them to complete a year of “useful service” away from the academy. See https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheating.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheat...
noahmbarr 6y ago
> Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. How did you come to this conclusion? I believe in consequences, but I am neither a professional educator nor a veteran of any armed forces. I would defer to the head of this institution to arrive at an appropriate decision.
- 535188B17C93743 6y ago
  I'd prefer to not give second chances to the servicepeople being afforded a $400k education on our dime to cheat and lie only to control the most advanced weapon systems on the planet. But that's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - abtom 6y ago
    Well the standard for controlling the most powerful country aren't too high so this shouldn't be a problem either.
    - chokeartist 6y ago
      You're referring to the civilian aspect of control - which are elected officials. DOD executes orders from the National Command Authority (NCA), which is in effect the civilian-to-military control interface for military orders. You are free to debate the quality of the civilian control aspect (President), but I personally draw the line at the military domain. You want no variance in that part of the system. Otherwise the entire concept of recursive control ultimately residing in the hands of a civilian is questionable.
- smileysteve 6y ago
  The easy reasoning, is that on the field of battle, there are no do-overs * You don't know the math and people die * You cheat and you create an international incident. You either go to jail or people die because of the decisions you make.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > > Second chances here are what result in subpar military officers. [...] > I would defer to the head of this institution to arrive at an appropriate decision. Blind faith in institutions here (and anywhere) is what enables mass institutional failure. Whether it's producing subpart military officers and the all the negative consequences that has, or the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, or a slide toward tyranny in representative political institutions.
unishark 6y ago
> Every single one of these people should be dismissed or resign. They are simply not officer material. The Honor Code is very clear. You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. Yeah but since 2015 the rules have stated you can get a second chance. So it would not be fair or ethical to retroactively change the punishment now.
- washadjeffmad 6y ago
  As an honor code, it's implied that you not commit a willful infraction with the second chance in mind. Intent to follow the spirit of an honor code is as important as following it. Abusing the system because you know you get one free pass is an invitation to cheat until caught, which is unfair to everyone else. In reality, needing to use your second chance is already failure. If you can't internalize that, admit to it, and volunteer to step down, then you aren't the type of person who deserved a second chance.
cpascal 6y ago
> The last time this happened, everyone involved was dismissed or resigned. If you're referring to the 1976 scandal that's not completely true. Yes they were dismissed, but a large number of them were given a second chance. The 1976 scandal involved 150 cadets but 92 cadets were readmitted after completing year of useful service as stipulated by the Pentagon. [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheating.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/21/nyregion/west-point-cheat...
RHSeeger 6y ago
Given the sheer number of instances where the higher ups in the military have lied, especially claiming they had no involvement in a problem; letting the shit roll downhill (as the expression goes) until it finds someone so low they can't blame anyone below them.... I find it ironic that being caught lying once is considered something that proves you're not officer material. That is, of course, it's the "caught" part, because it seems rare that anyone higher up is ever actually caught for anything; that's what the scapegoats are for. To be very clear, I appreciate the military and all those men and women that serve in it. I just think it's ridiculous to think that they are of a higher moral caliber than the rest of the population. They're people, just like you and me. And learning from your mistakes is part of being human. You can't learn from a mistake if there's never second chances.
- VLM 6y ago
  > I find it ironic that being caught lying once is considered something that proves you're not officer material. There seems no controversy that the middle management era of staff duty seems designed to filter out good officers and keep the worst or at least keep the folks unable to escape. Their point of view is if you start with a better pool of O-1 then as the good officers are eliminated on the march upward in rank, forcing the worst O-1 to none the less be better officers at the start will result in better O-4 range officers which eventually, in theory, will someday result in better O-9 officers. Remember unlike corporations, the military promotes from within, so todays 2nd Lts will literally be the commanding generals in about 25 years. Most corporations do not promote from within, or rarely do, and life long careers are dead in corporate world, so there's no ethical or moral argument in trying to make superior paper filing clerks today so as to get a better CEO in forty years. Its also worth considering that there's a peculiar form of hazing or abuse of junior military personnel where "caught" is really a combo of intelligence testing and social skills testing where at least one is required to pass. The reason for a baroquely complex process to take leave is to select for personnel who are some mixture of extremely smart able to outthink the opposition or good at social skills to schmooze successfully (which is a military intel or military police or green beret skill...). There's a power law distribution of importance where almost all decisions are not "newsworthy". Technically its an honor violation to fill out the wrong leave form and obtain the wrong signature in the wrong box and put it in the wrong mailbox, its an IQ and/or social skills test or hazing for juniors to avoid situations like that. In theory the kids are supposed to be selected via that process to be smart enough and observant enough to avoid making dumb mistakes when it actually counts. In practice once in a long while psychopaths get thru the process and bend the hazing to more self serving purposes, LOL, and THEN that stuff makes the news, not unlike a lot of corporate internal politics. Or more explicitly, you're supposed to not "get caught" technically AWOL because you're supposed to be smart enough to read the policy book and/or friendly enough with the "old timer" O-2 who's been there an entire year before you, such that you file your paperwork properly and avoid being technically AWOL. With the hope that someday if you make it to O-9 rank, or perhaps earlier, you'll have absorbed via osmosis enough written regs and adopted a hopefully moral culture that when you have to make an important decision you won't screw up.
cies 6y ago
> You lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do and you're not military material. Try banking, big business, CIA/NSA. We need honest/prudent/righteous cannon fodder!
- cies 6y ago
  Oops: forgot politics. How could I.
kome 6y ago
It's strange you want pure and moral men in the most immoral business there is, war. USA are producing AND acquitting war criminals literally all the time...
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Because a moral man forced into an immoral situation will try to make the choice that causes the minimal amount of suffering to achieve the goal. All war is immoral. Always, all the time. You're depriving someone of their life - their future. I'd rather someone with a conscious be required to make those decisions than someone without.
mdoms 6y ago
Ah yes, the US military, famously upstanding and honourable. Not at all responsible for atrocity after atrocity after atrocity.
Bakary 6y ago
Is honesty the biggest factor in having competent officers, or is it courage/tactical understanding/craftiness/resistance to stress etc.? (Honestly asking) The notion of honesty and moral character seems at odds with empire building
- AnHonestComment 6y ago
  How so? I believe the British authors who spoke of their “duty to enlighten savages” and similar — they seemed incredibly honest in their racism. They viewed it as a genuinely noble pursuit of building a better mankind through enlightened empire. They were certainly more honest than the US baizuo, who were called lying foxes by Malcolm X. Beyond that, honesty is probably the highest priority for a general: he has staff to be crafty, tactical, and brave. What he needs is the ability to coordinate that staff effectively, which can only be done when problems are honestly communicated. This is true even at more junior levels: the officer is out in the field with you, but let’s be honest... he’s probably not point on kicking down doors. Even at that level, he needs direct and honest communication from door kickers so he can coordinate the operation, re-assign people during fire fights, and co-ordinate with base staff, like status updates and requests for backup.
HarryHirsch 6y ago
The really concerning bit is that the cadets tried to cheat on a core course. I mean, West Point is an engineering school, where fluency in math is an absolute requirement. Did they really think they could get away with no math in the followup courses? How stupid can you be, trying to subvert the teaching?

cs702 6y ago

Veen 6y ago
Individuals cheating and lying is to be expected. Trust in institutions is damaged when they get away with it. The most damaging aspect of this story is that the cheats are being allowed to continue on the course.
- cheschire 6y ago
  Especially when one considers the opportunities they would get later in life with that secret decoder ring. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west-point/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west...
- qntty 6y ago
  Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating didn't do anything to change my opinion. If anything, it made me hopeful to know that people seem to naturally resist participating in poorly designed institutions even if they don't share my bigger picture view of them.
  - pc86 6y ago
    You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.
    - 6y ago

adamnemecek 6y ago

Why is this such a big deal?

djohnston 6y ago
Almost 70 officer candidates engaging in conduct unbecoming of an officer at one of the most famous schools in the country*.
- credit_guy 6y ago
  Why the asterisk? Among the military academies in the US, I think only Annapolis is anything close to the name recognition of West Point.
  - djohnston 6y ago
    I had originally written "world", but I have no idea what sort of international rep US military academies have. They are undeniably good engineering schools, but less accessible to int'l students.
resist_futility 6y ago
You generally don't want people that cheat, lie and can't pass calculus in charge of the largest military in the world
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Also US military is not the largest military in the world.
  - derwiki 6y ago
    Straw man? And yes not the largest by headcount but widely considered the most powerful military in the world.

altdatathrow 6y ago

Just emulating the commander in chief.

claydavisss 6y ago

Is this much worse than sharing assignment answers, which literally 100% of students do?

motohagiography 6y ago

Those of us too stupid to cheat end up working for the ones with the sort of low cunning to do it, creating a layer of compromised people with an infinite demand for anything that will relieve their imposter syndrome and moralize or temporarily redeem the nagging shame. Hard to wonder why we have a culture war.

DFHippie 6y ago
I want to upvote this some more.

sizzzzlerz 6y ago

After successfully navigating almost 4 years at West Point, these idiots risk everything for one single exam. Ignoring the Honor Code violations, their actions demonstrate they simply are not fit to become officers as their decision making skills are severely compromised.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Except this is how a lot of them navigated it/navigated getting there (as they are first years). I don't think this is their first time, other than being caught.
branweb 6y ago
the cadets — all but one of whom are first-years... Please read more closely.

johnhenry 6y ago

When we look at the behavior of the Commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces to set an example and our students and military follow that example, we cannot be surprised.

branweb 6y ago
I seriously doubt a bunch of first-year cadets with a looming calculus exam sat around in their dorms thinking "what would Trump do?". Yours is one several comments here expressing this sentiment, and aside from what it says about your capacity for independent thought, it illustrates an inability--all too pervasive these days--to conceive of any issue in non-trumpian terms.
- altdatathrow 6y ago
  Trump has set a precedent for what is acceptable behavior of public servants and the lasting damage will take decades to undo. He pardoned someone convicted of war crimes. He's convinced hundreds of sitting governors, represetnatives, and senators to openly object to and instill distrust in the integrity of elections. He's publicly questioned and disparaged the integrity of nearly every government institution from the military to intelligence agencies to the IRS. So, yes, we're viewing this in Trumpian terms because there's a very clear link to eroding trust in government institutions.
  - anoonmoose 6y ago
    so you blame gerald ford for the 1976 west point cheating scandal? or do you think it was a time-delayed nixon effect?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      If the examples set by our leaders were irrelevant or inconsequential, we wouldn't need leaders at all, only managers.

npalli 6y ago

Fascinating that this kind of cheating happened in 1976 [1] at which point it was only the second most serious cheating incident. The first being from 1951 when 90 of 100 students were expelled or resigned. https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/08/archives/more-than-90-cadets-at-west-point-face-charges-of-cheating-on-a.html https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/08/archives/more-than-90-cad...

oefrha 6y ago

As a "math guy" I was more than once put into the uncomfortable position of being asked to help with problems on calculus take-home exams. Given the utter mathematical cluelessness I've observed in the average American college student, even at top schools, I wouldn't be surprised if cheating on math exams has always been rampant. For every busted incident there are probably a hundred or a thousand more that went undetected.

wil421 6y ago
Did you try to help them or just point out their utter mathematical cluelessness?
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Help people out on calculus take home exams? Mind as well direct them to Discord where there’s plenty of help.

keiferski 6y ago

Anyone know if studying ancient Spartan training methods is a part of the West Point curriculum? The Spartan boy, learned only the basics, according to Plutarch, such as music and mathematics. Their principal training is a military one, often even crossing moral boundaries, such as learning how to steal without getting caught. The philosophy was that, in case of a war, a soldier might have to steal food in order to survive. The main key point here is that, when a boy was caught, he was not punished for his act of stealing, but for being caught! The Spartan youth had their favorite "game" of stealing food or other possessions from servants (Greek: είλωτες, helotes). A well-known story that proves the Spartan training and loyalty is this: Once, a 13 year old Spartan boy stole a fox from a village near his camp. Alas, a trainer found him and asked him what he was doing off campus. The boy had seen the trainer and had hidden the fox beneath his cloth. As the boy said nothing, the trainer insisted. The fox, still alive, beneath the boy's cloth, started scratching him, in order to escape. While doing that, the boy continued to deny the stealing until the wounds suffered by the fox killed him. https://www.ancient.eu/article/342/the-spartan-education/ https://www.ancient.eu/article/342/the-spartan-education/

Balgair 6y ago
ACOUP had a very good bit on Sparta and it's 'mirage' here: https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/ https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p... As Devereaux puts it on Spartan child-rearing: "To sum up: far from being some ideal system of child-rearing, as Xenophon might have it, the Spartan agoge appears functionally identical to modern systems which use trauma to condition child soldiers." The whole series is a great and very deep dive into Sparta and the summation is clear: If Sparta still existed, we'd all invade to stop the horror.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  Only if they had diamonds and oil and other important resources. "Sparta, the new Angola!"
sa46 6y ago
The helmet in the West Point emblem is the helmet of the Greek goddess Athena. I suspect any Spartan influence is incidental and superficial. > The committee began with the creation of an emblem that consisted of a sword, a universal symbol of war, and the helmet of Pallas Athena. Athena, a fully armed mythological goddess, is associated with the arts of war, and her helmet signifies wisdom and learning. http://usheraldicregistry.com/index.php?n=Registrations.20081014A http://usheraldicregistry.com/index.php?n=Registrations.2008...

jsperson 6y ago

For all the folks doubting the decision making here, unless you know specifics, I suggest that the system is working well. Years ago I worked very closely with the current Commandant of West Point BG Buzzard. I know him to be a man of honor. Based on my experience working with him and other quality officers during my enlistment, I can assure you that they are experienced, highly educated (BG Buzzard has a masters from Harvard), and have a good sense of the broader impacts of their decisions.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

godelzilla 6y ago

If these kids can't unquestioningly follow directions on a pointless and outdated mission, how will the ever be officers?

aj7 6y ago

As I’ve said about 4 different times on Twitter, always in the context of Pompeo, “West Point Ain’t Cal Tech.” Cheat on a calculus exam?

tzs 6y ago
> “West Point Ain’t Cal Tech.” It would be funnier as "Westpoint Ain't Cal Tech".
- aj7 6y ago
  My Mom was a HS English teacher.

dannykwells 6y ago

People saying they should be expelled: 1. They are mostly first years (this was a Calculus 1 course). 2. They will go through rehabilitation 3. West Point instituted second chances in 2015, not just for this group. 4. Together implying that they will have plenty of time to prove that this was a one time thing, or not. Compassion and vulnerability are also important parts of leadership: leaders that can admit they made a mistake, perhaps even acted selfishly, and reflect on that behavior and avoid it in the future are better than those who cannot. This is the "new" way of leadership now, and personally, I am all for it, compared to the "old" style of pure hierarchy, repressed emotion, violence + fear as motivators, etc.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
Given that turnbacks and rehabs have been a thing for years, it is probably working out the way the Army hopes. I got in trouble a few times in the Army and there was a lot of effort to "rehab" me. When I got in trouble as an NCO, the whole point of my punishment was to make me a better NCO. That's what they said and it seemed that's what they were trying to do.

wildermuthn 6y ago

I went to West Point two decades ago, before the apparent change to the honor code in 2015 that allowed for second chances. It does take a little time to adjust to the honor code, but among all the things learned at WP, this one stuck with me the most. I (and many of my friends) came to literally hate lying/cheating, and to disdain those who do. But there’s another route that is taken too — the opposite, where some cadets become very good at lying/cheating. What starts out as a trivial lie must be covered up with larger more intricate lies, moving from something accidental or thoughtless to something intentional and deliberate. The cover-up and defense, often bringing friends into the mix, turns toxic really quickly. This is what happens when a perceived innocuous lie is seen a a life-ruiner. My father also went to a service academy, and often after catching me in a lie would say, “I’m mad at you about lying, but I’m ever madder you were dumb enough to get caught!” My dad is one of the most moral men I’ve ever met, and I only just now connected the dots here with regard to a zero-toleration honor code. I suspect the 2015 change was a practical rather than principled change: to make it easier to catch and correct violations instead of letting them fester and spread. In some ways the service academies are a giant experiment in human character. Humans naturally lie, cheat, and steal in order to survive and protect their own tribe (i.e., go to war). Can you change that? Not really. But you can create a culture like that. The change, as ironic as it may seem, may do a better job of creating that kind of culture by attacking the tendency to dig deeper holes.

fbelzile 6y ago
I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature. Depending on which degree you were working on, there was often just way too much to do with the time given. The "academic wing" wouldn't coordinate with the "military wing" and we'd end up having a slew of inspections alongside midterms. I remember getting caught skipping out on military training on a Saturday (which was just a day of lectures, easy to slip out after attendance) to catch up on homework. At the same time, an officer went through the dorms to ensure nobody was skipping. I was caught in my room and spent the next two weeks having to wear an uncomfortable uniform all day and reporting to do drill every morning. Obviously, choosing to cheat academically is way worse than skipping a Saturday of lectures, but if the system is designed to break you, it shouldn't be impossible to recover from.

iridium_core 6y ago

These tests should have been taken in-person. Online testing is fundamentally an insecure medium prone to fraud.

tzs 6y ago
Their honor system is supposed to make how the test is administered irrelevant, so why did that not work should be the fundamental question, I think. Honor systems can work. A well known example is Caltech, where almost all exams are take home exams which students typically take alone in their room or in some other isolated place. Caltech may have an advantage in this because the classes are hard and it gets harder for you each year. If you need to and successfully do cheat, at least in a class that is at all relevant to your field, you are quite likely to flounder in subsequent years. So it may not be that Caltech students follow the Honor system because they are actually more honorable than most--it may be because they are smart enough to realize that cheating isn't really going to help them.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  Why are you assuming the students from Caltech follow the honor system and don't cheat? Seems incredibly likely that a good portion of them do cheat on take home exams.

KingMachiavelli 6y ago

For a college as selective as West Point, I'm surprised so many students had to cheat on a Calculus test.

mediaman 6y ago
Seriously. That's what surprises me about a lot of cheating: really? Cheating on this material? Why not at least wait to cheat when it really counts, on something very difficult to do without cheating? This form of cheating just seems lazy.
cafard 6y ago
a) They are selected for a variety of qualities, and mathematical competence weighs only so much, I suppose. b) They have many duties that eat up time and energy, and no doubt make it harder to study than it would be at a standard university.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  I wonder why West Point combines academics and military training at the same time. Why not doing them one after the other?
  - cafard 6y ago
    Historical reasons, but I don't know enough about this to say what they were. I infer that some of it may have had to do with the more uneven level of secondary schools in the US, as compared to the UK--where Sandhurst has a much shorter period of study (doesn't it)--or I suppose France/St. Cyr.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Yes most people turn up to Sandhurst having already completed a full degree at a normal civilian university.
      - 6y ago

confidantlake 6y ago

There has been a lot of talk about the ethics side of it. But another side that is also disturbing is that they would need to cheat to pass the class. West point is supposed to be an elite institution. Maybe the admissions processes is also compromised?

CamperBob2 6y ago
The other point that no one seems to be bringing up is that cheating on an introductory calculus test is a nonsensical thing to do. These aren't MBA students, they're engineering students, right? Everything in a technical math curriculum builds on what came before. If you have to start cheating that early, the only rational thing to do is to admit you're not in the right program and drop out gracefully. Academic ethics aside, cheating at this level is just plain bad judgment. No one who has to cheat in Calc I is going to get through Calc II without having to do the same thing, over and over.

jere 6y ago

There was a post on the AITA subreddit recently about a father who finds out his son has reported his friends for cheating on a math final. The dad had no problem with cheating whatsoever but took issue with the actions of the son. Whether or not this story is true, it reveals that 99% of people on twitter feel cheating is completely acceptable. In school I was under the impression cheating was relatively rare and no one proud of it, but I learned that I'm really out of touch. https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit/status/1340437223594979334 https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit/status/1340437223594979334

impendia 6y ago
Here is the actual reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/kg8cbx/aita_for_telling_my_son_to_grow_up_and_accept_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/kg8cbx/aita_... The top voted comment, with around 20K upvotes, rips into the father: "Instead of berating your son, you should be proud of what he did and support him by explaining that doing right is not always easy but necessary. You should be talking to administrators at his school about the culture they have inculcated." In contrast, the top voted comment which defends the son has only around 2,400 upvotes. Can't speak to "99% of people on twitter", but looks like only 10-15% of people on Reddit.
- jere 6y ago
  Yea I didn't link the reddit thread since the post itself was deleted, but indeed reddit seems to lean towards anti-cheating and twitter seems to lean towards pro-cheating (well, anti-snitching if nothing else). Really curious about how that dramatic difference developed.
  - VLM 6y ago
    reddit is a karma farm, so find the bandwagon and push it as extreme as possible to get those meaningless internet points. Note this applies to anything controversial on reddit especially politics. Only one extreme position will be allowed in all discussions in the presence of karma farming. Twitter is somewhat more conversational.

technonerd 6y ago

I 'cheated' on all my Air Force tests, D: all of the above and whatever answer that was longest. Like you could just skim the answers and select the longest one and move onto the next one without reading the question. What a horrible way to teach someone.

hnracer 6y ago

At least in my cohort and my university, cheating was endemic and done by almost everyone on every assignment. Not cheating was a significant disadvantage. I didn't ever hear of anyone getting caught which I find astonishing, since I'm sure the graders were faced with multiple identical answers. Maybe because the subjects were quantitative, there was less scope for plagiarism detection? Or maybe they just didn't really care, or they didn't want the administrative trouble. I'm not sure.

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forgingahead 6y ago

Seems like they'd be a good fit for politics instead! This is obviously made with (some) jest, but it is fascinating we pride ourselves on being societies where "the military answers to the civilian authorities", but we have nowhere near the same standards for civilian leaders as we apparently expect for military folk.

csours 6y ago

Long video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUhNIOGhPus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUhNIOGhPus Link to study itself: https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/lying-to-ourselves-dishonesty-in-the-army-profession/ https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/lying-to-ourselves-dishonesty... Top level point: Lying in the Army has been normalized due to required attestations that are likely impossible to accomplish, leading to 'pencil whipping'. I don't think that this is at all unique to the Army and I see this kind of thing where I work as well.

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pklausler 6y ago

To what extent was having a Commander in Chief with no honor a factor in the breakdown in honor among the cadets?

anoonmoose 6y ago
in my opinion, it was almost certainly not a factor whatsoever and suggesting that it was is a silly way to try to score points and/or start a fight

d33lio 6y ago

Seems like they've figured out the best political trick to "winning" in international geo-politics and war? Anyone who's honest with the nature of humanity knows that complete nuclear proliferation will never work to bring peace on earth, because basic game theory tells us at least one side will just cheat and keep some hidden nukes ;)

bigpumpkin 6y ago

Did nobody out of the 70 realize the answer they were copying from was wrong. West Point should look at its math education in addition to the integrity of its cadets.

cosmiccatnap 6y ago

You mean to tell me that an academy that is commonly used as a boarding school for the wealthy and the privileged spawned a culture that seems to suggest they thought they could get away with anything and we're clearly better than other people? I'm shocked, I can't imagine where they might have learned that from.

lovetocode 6y ago

If they cheated then they should be kicked out. No second chances. They are training to be officers in the military, many of which will be responsible for the lives of others.

psalminen 6y ago

I didn't know about West Point's honor code, and found it ironic. At my university, in physics at least, it was a loud secret that all ROTC students shared answers for previous years testsand homeworks.