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The reason you can’t buy a good webcam is the same reason you can’t buy a high quality monitor outside of LG’s unreliable apple collab. The lazy conglomerates

The reason you can’t buy a good webcam is the same reason you can’t buy a high quality monitor outside of LG’s unreliable apple collab. The lazy conglomerates who sell these peripherals often don’t actually produce the parts in them. They simply rebrand commodity cameras and IPS panels in a crap plastic housing and slap their logo on it. Then they give the product a hilariously user-hostile product name, like “PQS GRT46782-WT” as an extra f-you to the user. They don’t care about you because they have no ongoing relationship with you, and their executives mistakenly see their own products as commodities. Combine this with the fact that most home users don’t care about good quality or even know what it is, and you have the current situation. A friend once described the peripheral market as “Assholes selling crap to idiots.”

baxtr 6y ago
Ahh the LG monitor from the Apple collaboration. It’s so great. So different than other monitors. Stable, reliable, solid. A great product. You can literally see how Apple forced their product tenets on LG. Sadly, it’s not available anymore. I have one in my office but needed another one for home. Ended up buying an LG with the funny name of something 27UKi6716263 that looked similar on amazon. It’s so different... what a shame EDIT: it’a not available in Germany
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I don't think Apple have dropped it, it's still listed in the UK and here: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HMUB2LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k-display https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HMUB2LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k... I've got one and really like it although it doesn't seem to support HDCP.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ahelwer 6y ago
  I thought it was the exact same as the LG 24UD58-B except with lightning connectors instead of display port and hdmi? That (the non-lightning model) is the monitor I have, it's the smallest (24") 4k monitor I could find - I wanted high DPI, and I got it.
  - pembrook 6y ago
    Unfortunately at 3840 x 2160, it's not ideal since in pixel doubled mode (retina), you're only getting the equivalent of a 1080p display. The 22" LG Ultrafine used to have a 4069 x 2304 resolution. So in pixel doubling mode you actually got more screen real estate than newer 24" 4k models (which are only 3840 × 2160)! The problem is better described here: https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/2/20678597/lg-ultrafine-4k-2019-mac-monitor-review-price-specs-features https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/2/20678597/lg-ultrafine-4k-2...
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      Hmmm. I actually quite like 2160p as a simple upgrade over 1080p; usually I just solve the screen real estate problem by buying more monitors. You can get the 24UD58-B for about $200 used on eBay, so this is not a large cost.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  Isn’t this the monitor where the first production run wasn’t shielded correctly and interfered with wifi?
whalesalad 6y ago
This is a really well done hot take. It’s true, unfortunately. Everyone is in a race to the bottom.
huhtenberg 6y ago
Take a look at Eizo (pun intended).
- antonyh 6y ago
  I'd choose an Eizo over LG, definitely.
- gaudat 6y ago
  I think LG makes their own panels but Eizo doesn't? I think it's probably better buying a digital signage display from LG, Samsung or the likes.
  - philjohn 6y ago
    There are a small handful of panel manufacturers, that's true. Companies like Eizo typically have agreements where they will take the cream-of-the-crop panels though.
  - huhtenberg 6y ago
    I used to have a two-monitor setup with a Dell (? not sure) and an Eizo, both using the exact same panel. I started with one monitor and then got the Eizo. The difference in picture quality and eye comfort was absolutely jaw-dropping. Dell looked and felt like a complete junk in comparison. Make what you will of this, but it's not just a panel per se, it's also how it's integrated and used in the whole product.
- numpad0 6y ago
  * eizo/eizou means "footage" or "image" in Japanese
- fluidcruft 6y ago
  Recent Siemens MRI scanners come with Eizo displays. I had not heard of them previously, but they do seem pretty nice.
- bhaile 6y ago
  Didn't know about this company but looking at their history here[1], they used to sell under the brand name Nanao in the US. Nanao made great monitors with consistent high reviews. [1] https://www.eizo.com/company/information/history/ https://www.eizo.com/company/information/history/
blablabla123 6y ago
That seems a bit drastic but I agree with the sentiment and would also include laptops. Maybe I'm wrong since I didn't check all hardware but Apple still seem to be the only ones that have rigid quality controls, make sure parallel parts are parallel, mechanical parts stand a reasonable amount of movements. (At least as long they are not testing a new "innovation" like butterfly keyboards... ;)) That said, I buy stuff used if I cannot buy the high quality version. It falls apart anyway, this way there's no reason to be upset and it's better for the environment.
- pintxo 6y ago
  I have had success with focusing on the Lenovo/Thinkpad T range. The X range seems also to be ok.
- roel_v 6y ago
  If you want to go bargain basement yes. If not, get an XPS or a Thinkpad (of the 'pro' series) and you'll have great hardware. Of course there will always be someone who finds something to complain about, but overall, these are fantastic machines. Thing is, people complaim about there not being high quality gear, but when someone then makes it, they balk at the price. Yes people, a great laptop will cost you $3000.
muro 6y ago
Dell sells good monitors.
- pembrook 6y ago
  Dell used to have good offerings, but all they seem to push now is the same 27” not-quite-4K 3,840 x 2,160 panels everybody else does. Now even the 22" inch LG ultrafine that used to be 4069 x 2304 is bigger at 24" and a worse 3,840 x 2,160. The only good option for mac is the 27 ultrafine 5k. 27 4k a bad size & resolution for the current computer market. Windows scaling looks like crap, and MacOS has to do more resource intensive 1.5 scaling (as opposed to native or pixel doubling mode) to look okay on these. M1 might make this a mute point going forward, but the fact is at 27 inches, 5k is the only monitor that will look as good as the screen on your laptop while actually giving you more real estate.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > not-quite-4K 3,840 x 2,160 But...that is 4K. It's what 4K is defined as, exactly 2x 1080p resolution in each dimension. > Windows scaling looks like crap I don't understand. 2x each dimension (so 1 pixel in the old resolution is 4 in the new) is, like, the easiest possible scenario when it comes to scaling in software.
    - another_kel 6y ago
      4k on 27inch requires you to do 175%. 200% is too big.
      - alexvoda 6y ago
        To explain further: 200% (2 times each direction) scaling on 4K is the equivalent of 1080p. A 1080p 27 inch monitor has huuuge pixels for the normal viewing distance of a desktop monitor. 1080p is common on 23-24 inch displays. Therefore you are forced to use fractional scaling which is less then perfect.
    - mdre 6y ago
avian 6y ago
> Then they give the product a hilariously user-hostile product name, like “PQS GRT46782-WT” as an extra f-you to the user. That is also a strategy to prevent product comparisons and unbiased reviews. They quickly cycle through product names and sell a certain product no. only in a limited geographical area. Doesn't matter if a consumer org/magazine/someone on reddit/your friend/etc. does a review. The product will be out of market by the time you read it, or will not be sold in your country. The similar looking product you find on the shelf might be the same, or it might have something completely different inside.
- grenoire 6y ago
  The geo-locking of model numbers is one of the vilest practices I've seen. I don't see it going away for any reason, it'll only be possible to combat by intl. legislation... but how do you even legislate that?
  - einpoklum 6y ago
    Legislation can mandate the conspicuous publication of a clear indication of the difference between models. Now, companies can of course lie about this, in theory, but that's a bit like car manufacturers lying w.r.t. emission tests - possible, but you tend to get caught (cf. the recent Volkswagen case) so it's probably not worth it.
    - k_sze 6y ago
      Here’s my lazy take: the best governing body to start petitioning about this is probably the EU. If I remember correctly, they already have some of the most consumer-friendly laws on the planet, e.g. w.r.t. planned obsolescence.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    I don't see it going away as there are valid reasons for doing so for small but important market differences. If you're making some device (for example, washing machine) which has a power cord and a knob for some mode selection with writing on it, then for the exact same internals you need different models where the power cords are different (USA, UK, Germany and Japan each require different plugs) and the writing on the device is printed in different language and with customizations such as Celsius vs Fahrenheit. You can't sell the exact same laptop model in every market because the keyboard layouts are different. Etc.
gaudat 6y ago
Tip: try to find out what panel the monitor you are buying has. Then look the panel up in a database like panelook.com. This way you can get the specifications without any marketing bullshit. It also works the other way round. Find a panel that is good enough for your eyes, then see if there's a mass marketed display with that panel. If you are adventurous, you can grab "DIY" or "assembled" monitors with the panels on Chinese e-Commerce sites.
- arvindamirtaa 6y ago
  Wow I'll never shop for monitors the same again.
- tilolebo 6y ago
  Isn't it so that monitors or laptops under the same model sometimes use different panels?
  - gaudat 6y ago
    Yes. Consider most people only care about the resolution, sometimes manufacturers substitute a lower cost panel that is inferior in say, gamut or response time.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  Isn't there a chance that the assembled Chinese monitors actually use second grade panels that the big makers wouldn't accept? I remember getting a 27-inch 1440p display from a Chinese manufacturer for really cheap back in high school. It should've been the exact same panel as was in Apple's iMacs. However, the were some quality issues with it long term and it's definitely suffering from burn-in that I don't think the iMacs suffer from.
  - gaudat 6y ago
    Yes, so often I ask if the seller can provide a "perfect" display, that is, without any artifacts on the display. This adds 100-200 CNY to the price. There's a Chinese panel manufacturer called BOE that makes products competitive with some of the lower-end Samsung / LG panels. I got one 15.6" 2160p external display with a BOE panel that offers 100% sRGB coverage. I can see a huge difference compared to my Dell Latitude laptop display. Now if anyone can find a source of 55" 4K OLED panels, that would be the one ultimate display. Combine it with a VBO driver board and it becomes better than any smart TVs.
augustk 6y ago
Another thing I find really annoying is when I browse a website and first have to choose a product line when I don't even know what the difference between the product lines are.
- soylentcola 6y ago
  Right? Like "is this for home use, office use, or gaming?" I guess I understand where they're coming from, when most potential customers would likely glaze over and click away if presented with a long list of specs and product numbers. Still, it's always nice when they at least have a "show all products" link that takes me to exactly that. I want a full list that can be narrowed down with filters.
mdre 6y ago
I spent 6 months learning about monitors before buying one for graphic design and the tldr version is: you buy from NEC or EIZO. The panel is one thing, but what sets them apart from the other ones are the electronics inside that drive the panel. And QC, the commodity brands tend to be very hit or miss.
Joeri 6y ago
I think it’s more of a “the market won’t pay for quality” problem. People won’t pay thousands of euros for a good monitor, so manufacturers have to slap together the parts available in bulk in order to reach price points people will pay. The LG 5K is a good example, because it is clearly compromised to reach a somewhat reasonable price point. From what I can tell the monitor market mostly exists to cater to the generic business monitor and pc gamer markets anyway, as those are the only parts still selling in volume. Although I have to admit that I was equally frustrated when I wanted a good retina screen with 200-ish dpi to pair up with the mac mini I wanted to buy, only to conclude getting the 5K iMac instead was the most sensible option.
- pembrook 6y ago
  I don’t think that’s it. Apple is the most valuable company on earth right now, entirely due to their thesis that people will pay for quality hardware. The “creator” market is much more profitable than the gamer market where kids only have as much as mom will allow them to spend (vs The tech workers, coders, designers, youtubers, etc that need high quality displays to make a living). It’s why Apple is able to get insane 50% margins in many products. It’s crazy to me that the big Asian manufacturers don’t see the market opportunity in catering to this crowd. In their minds you’re either an office drone using excel or a gamer who wants neon lights. Both of which are market segments with terrible margins.
  - jjar 6y ago
    I think "gamer with neon lights" is certainly a segment with amazing margins, especially compared to standard office equipment. Most "gaming" mice/keyboards/chairs/computers/whatever are just decorated and brightly coloured versions of other products with insane markups. Alienware PC's are a great example here - The parts in one of those PC's can cost around half the cost of what the company actually sells it for. Other peripherals have similar price increases once they're branded as a device for gaming rather than office use as they know consumers are willing to pay more. I realize that there are lots of kids who want "gaming" gear (that their parents will pay for) but the PC gaming market is certainly geared towards mid 20's/30's who have the scratch to be able to afford this stuff. Not that these people are stupid or misinformed for doing so, some simply appreciate the aesthetic (even if it's something you or me might not particularly like).
LoSboccacc 6y ago
Eh, do really consumer want them? Like not pros that do streaming for a living etc, but the people doing conferencing or the occasional capture? They will hit local, isps or teleconferencing bandwidth cap well before sending all the bits a webcam captures, with subsequent recompression to crap quality. Why would they bother then?
nbzso 6y ago
Early in my career I learned important lesson, there is no point buying displays from other brands than NEC or EIZO. Preferably upper tier products. The exception from this rule was Apple Cinema Display and Some Dell models. EIZO FlexScans are reliable and rarely have any issues. https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/flexscan/index.html https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/flexscan/index.html
- pembrook 6y ago
  Unfortunately EIZO doesn't produce a single display with the ideal resolution for MacOS. 27" 5k or 22" 4k (4069 x 2304, like the first LG ultrafine was) are the unicorns I am seeking. Unfortunately the LG ultrafine suffers from image retention/ghosting. So there's ultimately no great displays for Mac outside of the wildly expensive Pro Display XDR.
  - manderley 6y ago
    Why are those "the ideal resolution for mac os", exactly?
    - pembrook 6y ago
      For reference, the 16” MacBook Pro has a 3072‑by‑1920 display. This means the 27” 4K monitors that are the industry standard now for some reason at 3,840 x 2,160 are almost twice the size, yet have barely more resolution than the MacBook true retina screen. MacOS can do scaling to adjust for this, but it uses the least amount of resources in native or pixel doubled mode. Any display that is between the resolutions I mentioned (like 27 4K) requires fractional scaling. This is more resource intensive, and doesn’t look as good as pure retina. Here’s a better explanation: https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/ https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/
      - nbzso 6y ago
        Sorry but this has no sense at all. From 20 years on I work only with Apple based desktops/laptops. And I am a pixel peeper. Scaling is not a problem even on MacBook Pro from 2013. If you want to rationalise a purchase of new Apple Display XDR there are more factual reasons for this. Don't get me wrong - the new displays are very competitive for grading middle market, but most professionals are using separate proofing displays for testing. I am talking about good quality display with bearable price. Not display for $6,299.00 Example: https://www.amazon.de/EV3285-BK-Monitor-DisplayPort-Reaktionszeit-Aufl%C3%B6sung/dp/B07D58QQ9N/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2S9OU67TEVS94&dchild=1&keywords=eizo+flexscan+32+zoll&qid=1608646957&sprefix=eizo+flexscan+32%2Caps%2C224&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.de/EV3285-BK-Monitor-DisplayPort-Reaktion...
arendtio 6y ago
Why do you think the LG monitors outside of the Apple collaboration are not good? Recently, I bought two 27GN950, which is a 27" 4k@144Hz gaming monitor with good colors. So far the worst part is the fan and in the long run the absence of HDMI 2.1 might be disappointing, but overall I have the impression of a good product. Yes, it doesn't have the same PPI as smartphones, but I am not sure if we are going to see that happen ever.
- m463 6y ago
  Hmm... There might be some truth in that. I've noticed over decades that high quality stuff comes out of the checks-and-balances of experts specifying and purchasing stuff. Examples I remember are sun monitors based on sony trinitron tubes, sun/sgi hard drives that were always checked - and sometimes returned by he container - so were actually enterprise grade, not consumer grade. Lots and lots of OEM stuff like that.
- a2tech 6y ago
  The monitor has a fan? That would be a huge negative to me
  - post_break 6y ago
    Like Apples monitor that also has a fan?
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      But Apple's fans are made from recicled SR-71 blackbirds to ensure ultimate noise suppression and each fan blade is assembled by a Swiss watchmaker to ensure quality. Just kidding, it comes from the same Chinese factory as every other fan but Apple's fans(pun intended) like to believe in magic to justify the price tag.
  - arendtio 6y ago
    Yes, I wonder too why is is necessary, especially because my PC is completely fan-less :-/ However, over the day is is barely audible and it only comes to my mind when I am sitting in front of the PC late at night (+ without headphones).
eecc 6y ago
Let me chime in: just bought a T14s. Could be a dream machine but the shite 1080 panel (Windows recommends a hilariously crappy 1.5 scaling. Kidding me?) the pesky trackpad and the awfully glitchy Windows 10 (yah, probably the drivers but the platform enables this horror) destroy the value of this otherwise pretty solid device.
- Const-me 6y ago
  > Windows recommends a hilariously crappy 1.5 scaling. Windows has multiple GPU-accelerated vector graphics GUI frameworks. Well-written Windows apps look well with non-integer scaling. > awfully glitchy Windows 10 Here's what you should do with new computers. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 Make an installation USB drive, boot from that drive, remove all partitions from the laptop's SSD, perform clean install. You don't need product keys to reinstall Windows as long as the SKU matches (i.e. if you have Win10 home edition, reinstall the same edition). Don't just blindly click through the wizard, read messages and you'll get better UX (you don't want cortana, personalized ads, geolocation, etc). Connect to internet, run windows update. Open device manager. If some devices are left in "unknown device" state, you might need to manually find their drivers. Make sure to only install drivers and not user-mode utilities.
- nobleach 6y ago
  What's wrong with the trackpad? I was considering a T15...
  - eecc 6y ago
    It glitches, together with the keyboard. It’s like events start piling up as the UI loop locks up (for up to 1 sec.) then suddenly they rush through and the pointer wanders around and keystrokes fall through at a constant rate. Other times they’re barely lagging enough to feel it. Awful, but I remember similar issues on Dell and an HP. It’s an issue with the device driver or some “value add” driver control software. :(
rzwitserloot 6y ago
> The lazy conglomerates who sell these peripherals often don’t actually produce the parts in them > Combine this with the fact that most home users don’t care about good quality or even know what it is, and you have the current situation. It sounds apt. But... There is an absolutely thriving market for keyboards and mice. For both, conglomerates like logitech and microsoft are selling both what you describe as 'crap', as well as higher end stuff that tries to care about quality. Possibly not in the way you think is most important, but certainly a Logitech MX Master3 keyboard retailing at >$100 is not a cheap piece of crap. The letters aren't inked on, for example, thus ensuring they don't rub off particularly easily. Not a feature that is advertised or is likely to show up in a review. The kind of quality move that doesn't make sense if the market is just 'assholes selling crap to idiots'. Keyboards are even more interesting; a lively indie market for custom-built usually mechanical keyboards, supported by parts manufacturers where price isn't particularly important. I agree, though - the webcam market is quite a mess. So, what's the explanation for that? Why do keyboards and mice not fall under your 'assholes selling crap to idiots' rule?
- pembrook 6y ago
  Keyboards are MUCH easier to produce than LCD displays or cameras. The problem is that there's only so many companies that truly design and manufacture photographic sensors, lenses and LCD panels. And all the downstream "brands" that assemble this technology into cheap plastic cases to sell to consumers can only do so much to differentiate. Add neon lights for gamers. Make it look dull for business users. Etc. They also sell TVs and have thousands of other SKUs, so they really don't care about any individual product. Apple is both incentivized (due to their ongoing customer relationships) and able to break out of this mold because they: a) Produce a tighter number of SKUs and b) Do enough volume to control and change what the original equipment manufacturers are producing
itsoktocry 6y ago
>The lazy conglomerates who sell these peripherals often don’t actually produce the parts in them. You think that complete vertical integration will improve product quality?
- leadingthenet 6y ago
  Apple
  - lrvick 6y ago
    Apple is quality in terms of UX and marketing. The qualities I value however are freedom, security, and privacy. In that lens, the quality of Apple is very poor.
    - leadingthenet 6y ago
      I’m sorry, but every time I hear variations on “Apple’s greatest quality is marketing”, I know to discard that opinion immediately.
tmountain 6y ago
It seems like some company there (besides Apple), should seize the opportunity to differentiate themselves on quality, and deliver supply-chain controlled "boutique" hardware, which I'm certain many would shell out for.
- philjohn 6y ago
  There are already companies who do this, such as Eizo. They cost multiple thousands (or tens of thousands for reference monitors with built-in calibration and Dolby Vision certification).
  - dhosek 6y ago
    I'm thinking the op was imagining something in the middle ground. Maybe +10–40% for a guarantee of quality. The case I can think of is Anker for cables although in that case they also don't charge a premium either.
    - philjohn 6y ago
      Honestly, in that price range, Dell is probably "good enough" Grab something like the i1Display Studio to calibrate and it'll be golden for anyone who doesn't need a hardware LUT or built-in calibration.
- whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  There’s no money in it and the XDR is a vanity project. Too expensive for the person who isn’t grading marvel movies but not quite hitting the actual specs needed to grade a marvel movie. Meaning the only people buying it are top tier youtubers
dannyw 6y ago
Samsung Odyssey G7 and Samsung Odyssey G9 would like to have a word with you.
rektide 6y ago
Went looking for a monitor recently & was so sad to see that there are less than a dozen monitors with full-array dimming, & most of those have 16 zones or less. I ended up going with a budget option, no local-dimming. It's frustrating how behind, how stagnant, computer displays are. I don't want to sit in front of a 48 inch OLED tv, too big, not high enough dpi, but I feel like I'm throwing money at bad products trying to buy a computer monitor. At least there are some fair budget options (Pixio PX275h 95Hz 4k, $250, doing ok).
timidiceball 6y ago
My organization has been slowly rolling out the use of Cisco Desk Pros which are hardware endpoints that connect to Webex but are in a practical sense essentially monitors with very nice camera modules and microphone arrays built into the bezel. Laptops connected to the monitor with USB C can use the camera/mic. These cost like $4000 though. I find the video flattering (camera angle/focal length?)
- mxfh 6y ago
  You certainly can buy good high end webcams. But their market profile here is clearly still B2B and Telepresence, no Prosumer or Individual Professionals yet. Cisco had some impressive cameras in their older Telepresence products: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/collaboration-endpoints/telepresence-mx-series/series.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/collaboration-endpoint... But the Cisco TelePresence Precision 60 Camera CTS-P60-K9 ist Ethernet Only and needs prohibitivily expensive hardware to work with. https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/collaboration-endpoints/telepresence-precision-cameras/datasheet-c78-669051.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/collaborat... Next up is probably the Logitech PTZ Pro 2 or Rally https://www.logitech.com/en-roeu/product/rally-ultra-hd-ptz-camera?crid=1689 https://www.logitech.com/en-roeu/product/rally-ultra-hd-ptz-...

baxtr 6y ago

Ahh the LG monitor from the Apple collaboration. It’s so great. So different than other monitors. Stable, reliable, solid. A great product. You can literally see how Apple forced their product tenets on LG. Sadly, it’s not available anymore. I have one in my office but needed another one for home. Ended up buying an LG with the funny name of something 27UKi6716263 that looked similar on amazon. It’s so different... what a shame EDIT: it’a not available in Germany

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I don't think Apple have dropped it, it's still listed in the UK and here: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HMUB2LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k-display https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HMUB2LL/A/lg-ultrafine-5k... I've got one and really like it although it doesn't seem to support HDCP.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ahelwer 6y ago
I thought it was the exact same as the LG 24UD58-B except with lightning connectors instead of display port and hdmi? That (the non-lightning model) is the monitor I have, it's the smallest (24") 4k monitor I could find - I wanted high DPI, and I got it.
- pembrook 6y ago
  Unfortunately at 3840 x 2160, it's not ideal since in pixel doubled mode (retina), you're only getting the equivalent of a 1080p display. The 22" LG Ultrafine used to have a 4069 x 2304 resolution. So in pixel doubling mode you actually got more screen real estate than newer 24" 4k models (which are only 3840 × 2160)! The problem is better described here: https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/2/20678597/lg-ultrafine-4k-2019-mac-monitor-review-price-specs-features https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/2/20678597/lg-ultrafine-4k-2...
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    Hmmm. I actually quite like 2160p as a simple upgrade over 1080p; usually I just solve the screen real estate problem by buying more monitors. You can get the 24UD58-B for about $200 used on eBay, so this is not a large cost.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Isn’t this the monitor where the first production run wasn’t shielded correctly and interfered with wifi?

whalesalad 6y ago

This is a really well done hot take. It’s true, unfortunately. Everyone is in a race to the bottom.

huhtenberg 6y ago

Take a look at Eizo (pun intended).

antonyh 6y ago
I'd choose an Eizo over LG, definitely.
gaudat 6y ago
I think LG makes their own panels but Eizo doesn't? I think it's probably better buying a digital signage display from LG, Samsung or the likes.
- philjohn 6y ago
  There are a small handful of panel manufacturers, that's true. Companies like Eizo typically have agreements where they will take the cream-of-the-crop panels though.
- huhtenberg 6y ago
  I used to have a two-monitor setup with a Dell (? not sure) and an Eizo, both using the exact same panel. I started with one monitor and then got the Eizo. The difference in picture quality and eye comfort was absolutely jaw-dropping. Dell looked and felt like a complete junk in comparison. Make what you will of this, but it's not just a panel per se, it's also how it's integrated and used in the whole product.
numpad0 6y ago
* eizo/eizou means "footage" or "image" in Japanese
fluidcruft 6y ago
Recent Siemens MRI scanners come with Eizo displays. I had not heard of them previously, but they do seem pretty nice.
bhaile 6y ago
Didn't know about this company but looking at their history here[1], they used to sell under the brand name Nanao in the US. Nanao made great monitors with consistent high reviews. [1] https://www.eizo.com/company/information/history/ https://www.eizo.com/company/information/history/

blablabla123 6y ago

That seems a bit drastic but I agree with the sentiment and would also include laptops. Maybe I'm wrong since I didn't check all hardware but Apple still seem to be the only ones that have rigid quality controls, make sure parallel parts are parallel, mechanical parts stand a reasonable amount of movements. (At least as long they are not testing a new "innovation" like butterfly keyboards... ;)) That said, I buy stuff used if I cannot buy the high quality version. It falls apart anyway, this way there's no reason to be upset and it's better for the environment.

pintxo 6y ago
I have had success with focusing on the Lenovo/Thinkpad T range. The X range seems also to be ok.
roel_v 6y ago
If you want to go bargain basement yes. If not, get an XPS or a Thinkpad (of the 'pro' series) and you'll have great hardware. Of course there will always be someone who finds something to complain about, but overall, these are fantastic machines. Thing is, people complaim about there not being high quality gear, but when someone then makes it, they balk at the price. Yes people, a great laptop will cost you $3000.

muro 6y ago

Dell sells good monitors.

pembrook 6y ago
Dell used to have good offerings, but all they seem to push now is the same 27” not-quite-4K 3,840 x 2,160 panels everybody else does. Now even the 22" inch LG ultrafine that used to be 4069 x 2304 is bigger at 24" and a worse 3,840 x 2,160. The only good option for mac is the 27 ultrafine 5k. 27 4k a bad size & resolution for the current computer market. Windows scaling looks like crap, and MacOS has to do more resource intensive 1.5 scaling (as opposed to native or pixel doubling mode) to look okay on these. M1 might make this a mute point going forward, but the fact is at 27 inches, 5k is the only monitor that will look as good as the screen on your laptop while actually giving you more real estate.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  > not-quite-4K 3,840 x 2,160 But...that is 4K. It's what 4K is defined as, exactly 2x 1080p resolution in each dimension. > Windows scaling looks like crap I don't understand. 2x each dimension (so 1 pixel in the old resolution is 4 in the new) is, like, the easiest possible scenario when it comes to scaling in software.
  - another_kel 6y ago
    4k on 27inch requires you to do 175%. 200% is too big.
    - alexvoda 6y ago
      To explain further: 200% (2 times each direction) scaling on 4K is the equivalent of 1080p. A 1080p 27 inch monitor has huuuge pixels for the normal viewing distance of a desktop monitor. 1080p is common on 23-24 inch displays. Therefore you are forced to use fractional scaling which is less then perfect.
  - mdre 6y ago

avian 6y ago

> Then they give the product a hilariously user-hostile product name, like “PQS GRT46782-WT” as an extra f-you to the user. That is also a strategy to prevent product comparisons and unbiased reviews. They quickly cycle through product names and sell a certain product no. only in a limited geographical area. Doesn't matter if a consumer org/magazine/someone on reddit/your friend/etc. does a review. The product will be out of market by the time you read it, or will not be sold in your country. The similar looking product you find on the shelf might be the same, or it might have something completely different inside.

grenoire 6y ago
The geo-locking of model numbers is one of the vilest practices I've seen. I don't see it going away for any reason, it'll only be possible to combat by intl. legislation... but how do you even legislate that?
- einpoklum 6y ago
  Legislation can mandate the conspicuous publication of a clear indication of the difference between models. Now, companies can of course lie about this, in theory, but that's a bit like car manufacturers lying w.r.t. emission tests - possible, but you tend to get caught (cf. the recent Volkswagen case) so it's probably not worth it.
  - k_sze 6y ago
    Here’s my lazy take: the best governing body to start petitioning about this is probably the EU. If I remember correctly, they already have some of the most consumer-friendly laws on the planet, e.g. w.r.t. planned obsolescence.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  I don't see it going away as there are valid reasons for doing so for small but important market differences. If you're making some device (for example, washing machine) which has a power cord and a knob for some mode selection with writing on it, then for the exact same internals you need different models where the power cords are different (USA, UK, Germany and Japan each require different plugs) and the writing on the device is printed in different language and with customizations such as Celsius vs Fahrenheit. You can't sell the exact same laptop model in every market because the keyboard layouts are different. Etc.

gaudat 6y ago

Tip: try to find out what panel the monitor you are buying has. Then look the panel up in a database like panelook.com. This way you can get the specifications without any marketing bullshit. It also works the other way round. Find a panel that is good enough for your eyes, then see if there's a mass marketed display with that panel. If you are adventurous, you can grab "DIY" or "assembled" monitors with the panels on Chinese e-Commerce sites.

arvindamirtaa 6y ago
Wow I'll never shop for monitors the same again.
tilolebo 6y ago
Isn't it so that monitors or laptops under the same model sometimes use different panels?
- gaudat 6y ago
  Yes. Consider most people only care about the resolution, sometimes manufacturers substitute a lower cost panel that is inferior in say, gamut or response time.
Hamuko 6y ago
Isn't there a chance that the assembled Chinese monitors actually use second grade panels that the big makers wouldn't accept? I remember getting a 27-inch 1440p display from a Chinese manufacturer for really cheap back in high school. It should've been the exact same panel as was in Apple's iMacs. However, the were some quality issues with it long term and it's definitely suffering from burn-in that I don't think the iMacs suffer from.
- gaudat 6y ago
  Yes, so often I ask if the seller can provide a "perfect" display, that is, without any artifacts on the display. This adds 100-200 CNY to the price. There's a Chinese panel manufacturer called BOE that makes products competitive with some of the lower-end Samsung / LG panels. I got one 15.6" 2160p external display with a BOE panel that offers 100% sRGB coverage. I can see a huge difference compared to my Dell Latitude laptop display. Now if anyone can find a source of 55" 4K OLED panels, that would be the one ultimate display. Combine it with a VBO driver board and it becomes better than any smart TVs.

augustk 6y ago

Another thing I find really annoying is when I browse a website and first have to choose a product line when I don't even know what the difference between the product lines are.

soylentcola 6y ago
Right? Like "is this for home use, office use, or gaming?" I guess I understand where they're coming from, when most potential customers would likely glaze over and click away if presented with a long list of specs and product numbers. Still, it's always nice when they at least have a "show all products" link that takes me to exactly that. I want a full list that can be narrowed down with filters.

mdre 6y ago

I spent 6 months learning about monitors before buying one for graphic design and the tldr version is: you buy from NEC or EIZO. The panel is one thing, but what sets them apart from the other ones are the electronics inside that drive the panel. And QC, the commodity brands tend to be very hit or miss.

Joeri 6y ago

I think it’s more of a “the market won’t pay for quality” problem. People won’t pay thousands of euros for a good monitor, so manufacturers have to slap together the parts available in bulk in order to reach price points people will pay. The LG 5K is a good example, because it is clearly compromised to reach a somewhat reasonable price point. From what I can tell the monitor market mostly exists to cater to the generic business monitor and pc gamer markets anyway, as those are the only parts still selling in volume. Although I have to admit that I was equally frustrated when I wanted a good retina screen with 200-ish dpi to pair up with the mac mini I wanted to buy, only to conclude getting the 5K iMac instead was the most sensible option.

pembrook 6y ago
I don’t think that’s it. Apple is the most valuable company on earth right now, entirely due to their thesis that people will pay for quality hardware. The “creator” market is much more profitable than the gamer market where kids only have as much as mom will allow them to spend (vs The tech workers, coders, designers, youtubers, etc that need high quality displays to make a living). It’s why Apple is able to get insane 50% margins in many products. It’s crazy to me that the big Asian manufacturers don’t see the market opportunity in catering to this crowd. In their minds you’re either an office drone using excel or a gamer who wants neon lights. Both of which are market segments with terrible margins.
- jjar 6y ago
  I think "gamer with neon lights" is certainly a segment with amazing margins, especially compared to standard office equipment. Most "gaming" mice/keyboards/chairs/computers/whatever are just decorated and brightly coloured versions of other products with insane markups. Alienware PC's are a great example here - The parts in one of those PC's can cost around half the cost of what the company actually sells it for. Other peripherals have similar price increases once they're branded as a device for gaming rather than office use as they know consumers are willing to pay more. I realize that there are lots of kids who want "gaming" gear (that their parents will pay for) but the PC gaming market is certainly geared towards mid 20's/30's who have the scratch to be able to afford this stuff. Not that these people are stupid or misinformed for doing so, some simply appreciate the aesthetic (even if it's something you or me might not particularly like).

LoSboccacc 6y ago

Eh, do really consumer want them? Like not pros that do streaming for a living etc, but the people doing conferencing or the occasional capture? They will hit local, isps or teleconferencing bandwidth cap well before sending all the bits a webcam captures, with subsequent recompression to crap quality. Why would they bother then?

nbzso 6y ago

Early in my career I learned important lesson, there is no point buying displays from other brands than NEC or EIZO. Preferably upper tier products. The exception from this rule was Apple Cinema Display and Some Dell models. EIZO FlexScans are reliable and rarely have any issues. https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/flexscan/index.html https://www.eizoglobal.com/products/flexscan/index.html

pembrook 6y ago
Unfortunately EIZO doesn't produce a single display with the ideal resolution for MacOS. 27" 5k or 22" 4k (4069 x 2304, like the first LG ultrafine was) are the unicorns I am seeking. Unfortunately the LG ultrafine suffers from image retention/ghosting. So there's ultimately no great displays for Mac outside of the wildly expensive Pro Display XDR.
- manderley 6y ago
  Why are those "the ideal resolution for mac os", exactly?
  - pembrook 6y ago
    For reference, the 16” MacBook Pro has a 3072‑by‑1920 display. This means the 27” 4K monitors that are the industry standard now for some reason at 3,840 x 2,160 are almost twice the size, yet have barely more resolution than the MacBook true retina screen. MacOS can do scaling to adjust for this, but it uses the least amount of resources in native or pixel doubled mode. Any display that is between the resolutions I mentioned (like 27 4K) requires fractional scaling. This is more resource intensive, and doesn’t look as good as pure retina. Here’s a better explanation: https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/ https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/
    - nbzso 6y ago
      Sorry but this has no sense at all. From 20 years on I work only with Apple based desktops/laptops. And I am a pixel peeper. Scaling is not a problem even on MacBook Pro from 2013. If you want to rationalise a purchase of new Apple Display XDR there are more factual reasons for this. Don't get me wrong - the new displays are very competitive for grading middle market, but most professionals are using separate proofing displays for testing. I am talking about good quality display with bearable price. Not display for $6,299.00 Example: https://www.amazon.de/EV3285-BK-Monitor-DisplayPort-Reaktionszeit-Aufl%C3%B6sung/dp/B07D58QQ9N/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=2S9OU67TEVS94&dchild=1&keywords=eizo+flexscan+32+zoll&qid=1608646957&sprefix=eizo+flexscan+32%2Caps%2C224&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.de/EV3285-BK-Monitor-DisplayPort-Reaktion...

arendtio 6y ago

Why do you think the LG monitors outside of the Apple collaboration are not good? Recently, I bought two 27GN950, which is a 27" 4k@144Hz gaming monitor with good colors. So far the worst part is the fan and in the long run the absence of HDMI 2.1 might be disappointing, but overall I have the impression of a good product. Yes, it doesn't have the same PPI as smartphones, but I am not sure if we are going to see that happen ever.

m463 6y ago
Hmm... There might be some truth in that. I've noticed over decades that high quality stuff comes out of the checks-and-balances of experts specifying and purchasing stuff. Examples I remember are sun monitors based on sony trinitron tubes, sun/sgi hard drives that were always checked - and sometimes returned by he container - so were actually enterprise grade, not consumer grade. Lots and lots of OEM stuff like that.
a2tech 6y ago
The monitor has a fan? That would be a huge negative to me
- post_break 6y ago
  Like Apples monitor that also has a fan?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    But Apple's fans are made from recicled SR-71 blackbirds to ensure ultimate noise suppression and each fan blade is assembled by a Swiss watchmaker to ensure quality. Just kidding, it comes from the same Chinese factory as every other fan but Apple's fans(pun intended) like to believe in magic to justify the price tag.
- arendtio 6y ago
  Yes, I wonder too why is is necessary, especially because my PC is completely fan-less :-/ However, over the day is is barely audible and it only comes to my mind when I am sitting in front of the PC late at night (+ without headphones).

eecc 6y ago

Let me chime in: just bought a T14s. Could be a dream machine but the shite 1080 panel (Windows recommends a hilariously crappy 1.5 scaling. Kidding me?) the pesky trackpad and the awfully glitchy Windows 10 (yah, probably the drivers but the platform enables this horror) destroy the value of this otherwise pretty solid device.

Const-me 6y ago
> Windows recommends a hilariously crappy 1.5 scaling. Windows has multiple GPU-accelerated vector graphics GUI frameworks. Well-written Windows apps look well with non-integer scaling. > awfully glitchy Windows 10 Here's what you should do with new computers. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 Make an installation USB drive, boot from that drive, remove all partitions from the laptop's SSD, perform clean install. You don't need product keys to reinstall Windows as long as the SKU matches (i.e. if you have Win10 home edition, reinstall the same edition). Don't just blindly click through the wizard, read messages and you'll get better UX (you don't want cortana, personalized ads, geolocation, etc). Connect to internet, run windows update. Open device manager. If some devices are left in "unknown device" state, you might need to manually find their drivers. Make sure to only install drivers and not user-mode utilities.
nobleach 6y ago
What's wrong with the trackpad? I was considering a T15...
- eecc 6y ago
  It glitches, together with the keyboard. It’s like events start piling up as the UI loop locks up (for up to 1 sec.) then suddenly they rush through and the pointer wanders around and keystrokes fall through at a constant rate. Other times they’re barely lagging enough to feel it. Awful, but I remember similar issues on Dell and an HP. It’s an issue with the device driver or some “value add” driver control software. :(

rzwitserloot 6y ago

> The lazy conglomerates who sell these peripherals often don’t actually produce the parts in them > Combine this with the fact that most home users don’t care about good quality or even know what it is, and you have the current situation. It sounds apt. But... There is an absolutely thriving market for keyboards and mice. For both, conglomerates like logitech and microsoft are selling both what you describe as 'crap', as well as higher end stuff that tries to care about quality. Possibly not in the way you think is most important, but certainly a Logitech MX Master3 keyboard retailing at >$100 is not a cheap piece of crap. The letters aren't inked on, for example, thus ensuring they don't rub off particularly easily. Not a feature that is advertised or is likely to show up in a review. The kind of quality move that doesn't make sense if the market is just 'assholes selling crap to idiots'. Keyboards are even more interesting; a lively indie market for custom-built usually mechanical keyboards, supported by parts manufacturers where price isn't particularly important. I agree, though - the webcam market is quite a mess. So, what's the explanation for that? Why do keyboards and mice not fall under your 'assholes selling crap to idiots' rule?

pembrook 6y ago
Keyboards are MUCH easier to produce than LCD displays or cameras. The problem is that there's only so many companies that truly design and manufacture photographic sensors, lenses and LCD panels. And all the downstream "brands" that assemble this technology into cheap plastic cases to sell to consumers can only do so much to differentiate. Add neon lights for gamers. Make it look dull for business users. Etc. They also sell TVs and have thousands of other SKUs, so they really don't care about any individual product. Apple is both incentivized (due to their ongoing customer relationships) and able to break out of this mold because they: a) Produce a tighter number of SKUs and b) Do enough volume to control and change what the original equipment manufacturers are producing

itsoktocry 6y ago

>The lazy conglomerates who sell these peripherals often don’t actually produce the parts in them. You think that complete vertical integration will improve product quality?

leadingthenet 6y ago
Apple
- lrvick 6y ago
  Apple is quality in terms of UX and marketing. The qualities I value however are freedom, security, and privacy. In that lens, the quality of Apple is very poor.
  - leadingthenet 6y ago
    I’m sorry, but every time I hear variations on “Apple’s greatest quality is marketing”, I know to discard that opinion immediately.

tmountain 6y ago

It seems like some company there (besides Apple), should seize the opportunity to differentiate themselves on quality, and deliver supply-chain controlled "boutique" hardware, which I'm certain many would shell out for.

philjohn 6y ago
There are already companies who do this, such as Eizo. They cost multiple thousands (or tens of thousands for reference monitors with built-in calibration and Dolby Vision certification).
- dhosek 6y ago
  I'm thinking the op was imagining something in the middle ground. Maybe +10–40% for a guarantee of quality. The case I can think of is Anker for cables although in that case they also don't charge a premium either.
  - philjohn 6y ago
    Honestly, in that price range, Dell is probably "good enough" Grab something like the i1Display Studio to calibrate and it'll be golden for anyone who doesn't need a hardware LUT or built-in calibration.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
There’s no money in it and the XDR is a vanity project. Too expensive for the person who isn’t grading marvel movies but not quite hitting the actual specs needed to grade a marvel movie. Meaning the only people buying it are top tier youtubers

dannyw 6y ago

Samsung Odyssey G7 and Samsung Odyssey G9 would like to have a word with you.

rektide 6y ago

Went looking for a monitor recently & was so sad to see that there are less than a dozen monitors with full-array dimming, & most of those have 16 zones or less. I ended up going with a budget option, no local-dimming. It's frustrating how behind, how stagnant, computer displays are. I don't want to sit in front of a 48 inch OLED tv, too big, not high enough dpi, but I feel like I'm throwing money at bad products trying to buy a computer monitor. At least there are some fair budget options (Pixio PX275h 95Hz 4k, $250, doing ok).

timidiceball 6y ago

My organization has been slowly rolling out the use of Cisco Desk Pros which are hardware endpoints that connect to Webex but are in a practical sense essentially monitors with very nice camera modules and microphone arrays built into the bezel. Laptops connected to the monitor with USB C can use the camera/mic. These cost like $4000 though. I find the video flattering (camera angle/focal length?)

mxfh 6y ago
You certainly can buy good high end webcams. But their market profile here is clearly still B2B and Telepresence, no Prosumer or Individual Professionals yet. Cisco had some impressive cameras in their older Telepresence products: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/collaboration-endpoints/telepresence-mx-series/series.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/collaboration-endpoint... But the Cisco TelePresence Precision 60 Camera CTS-P60-K9 ist Ethernet Only and needs prohibitivily expensive hardware to work with. https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/collaboration-endpoints/telepresence-precision-cameras/datasheet-c78-669051.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/collaborat... Next up is probably the Logitech PTZ Pro 2 or Rally https://www.logitech.com/en-roeu/product/rally-ultra-hd-ptz-camera?crid=1689 https://www.logitech.com/en-roeu/product/rally-ultra-hd-ptz-...