25 ms·

A Guy Walks into an Apple Store

569 points by tobr 6y ago

Bud 6y ago
Here's what the article claims: "Now tell me, do you have Apple's 20W USB-C charging brick to use with this? It doesn't come with a charging brick either, and to get the advertised speeds then you need to use that brick. Literally no other charging bricks will get that speed." Here's what's actually true: Any USB-C charger with a port on it capable of 20W or higher (including all extant USB-C Mac chargers and all extant USB-C PC chargers) will drive MagSafe at full power, and the author probably knew this, but it's inconvenient to acknowledge it. Such chargers are extremely common.
- Xavdidtheshadow 6y ago
  Actually, per this article [1] that may not be the case. Copying a comment from reddit: > PD has certain charging ‘profiles’. > For example Apples 30W USB-C charger can work at: > 15 watts (5 volts @ 3 amps), 27 watts (9 volts @ 3 amps), 30 watts (15 volts @ 2 amps), and 30 watts (20 volts @ 1.5 amps) > The MagSafe puck supports none of those for some reason. So it drops down to ~5W which is a safe backup amount for most devices. > The new 20W charger appears to have a new profile it supports for the full 20W, which so far seems to be unique to that charger + MagSafe combo. It’s... messy. [1]: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-charging-restricted-to-apple-20w-adapter https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-...
  - Bud 6y ago
    Thank you for the correction!
  - Kirby64 6y ago
    Would be interesting to see what PD profile it's negotiating here that is different. I wouldn't be surprised if Anker et al. come out with MagSafe 15W compatible chargers shortly. Seems like it might be a 9V 1.8A profile or something silly? I'm surprised some of these tech YouTubers that do this stuff don't have a proper USB-PD profile analyzer. Something like this could find all the secrets necessary for Anker to recreate a functional brick: https://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-analyzer/ https://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-analy...
- fetus8 6y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/62D963CD-BE12-41FB-A840-B775BB9AEF2D?ingress=2&visitId=50619824-76f8-4acf-b295-cf7b6a0b5388&ref_=ast_bln https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/62D963CD-BE12-41FB-A840-B... Anker has about a ton of these, including 20W or higher ones, under $20.
- artemonster 6y ago
  Not sure whether you've tested your claims, I've heard people complaining (loudly!) that their anker chargers and powerbanks with PD (and rated with needed wattage) are not working, because Apple opted for some really strange voltage profile negotiation, that only small portion of the existing chargers support.
paxys 6y ago
I don't think even the most hardcore Apple superfans are buying the "reducing waste" argument. They have the right to make their products more expensive, and that's fine. People are going to keep buying them regardless.
- Bud 6y ago
  They didn't make the products more expensive, though. The iPhone 12 Pro series got cheaper (for the equivalent storage). They also made the charger and cable in question cheaper, for the small minority of users who actually need those items.
  - skohan 6y ago
    I have heard a lot of speculation that the move to remove the charger was motivated by Apple's desire to sell more chargers, but I suspect that they could care less about moving chargers. I believe it is profit motivated, but the real reason is the massive savings they will get on logistics by fitting almost 50% more iPhones in a shipping container by removing the charger. If they pass some of that savings onto the consumer, it seems like it's win-win.
    - robocat 6y ago
      > but the real reason is the massive savings they will get on logistics When positing causes, I suggest you learn how to do back-of-the-envelope calculations in your head. A container can hold a lot of iPhones. The cost of transport is trivial in comparison to the value, so the profitability delta is very small. I.e. I think you are making up stuff.
      - skohan 6y ago
        Yeah sure, the price of logistics is probably tiny compared to the BOM of an individual phone, but at the scale Apple is operating on, make no mistake this is saving them a huge amount of money. And it's not just logistics - it's storage space in warehouses, and probably a number of other things which are made substantially more efficient by fitting the same amount of units in a lot less space.
cma 6y ago
What's the point of the mag-safe branding if the magnet doesn't really provide any safety if you trip on the cord, since the phones are so lightweight and would still get yanked to the ground?
- henriquez 6y ago
  Seems like literally just a trademark Apple had laying around. I also don't see how it's better or more convenient than just plugging in a cord. From what I understand it wastes a lot of electricity.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    It wastes less electricity than normal Qi wireless charging because it can line up the coils more perfectly. It also opens up a whole ecosystem of MagSafe accessories like wallets, car mounts, tripods, etc.
    - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
      I’d also guess that MagSafe won’t wear out the phone socket as quickly, as one isn’t wearing down the socket with the friction of inserting cables. I’ve had to replace at least a couple phones from the socket being too “jiggly” to trust that the charging cable would retain contact. Nothing sucks more than waking up to a phone at 5% charge on a day when you need your phone.
  - nickthegreek 6y ago
    I found the the best thing with it is that it can be done with one hand. I would consider it way more convenient for me and I can’t wait til a 3rd part releases a car mount.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
supernova87a 6y ago
Well, if they were going to make the change and yank the charging brick, they would have to do it sometime, and it would break some number of people. It's just a question of when exactly. Is that not correct?
908B64B197 6y ago
Had they not recently changed the charging options (shipping USB-C cables and MagSafe) and stuck with the classical Lightning to USB-A scheme I would have been fine with Apple not bundling the cables and chargers in the box. Because most folks have them in excess and these don't ever die. But since they changed the charging options, it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one.
- Bud 6y ago
  Why? All of those old USB-A chargers and USB-A/Lightning cables will still charge the new iPhones perfectly well. So will every iPad charger ever made, btw. And every USB-C Mac charger ever made. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you or any particular observer wants to give credit for this reducing e-waste or being "eco-friendly". It's a plainly obvious fact that it will massively reduce e-waste and be a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front, in about 5 different ways. Those facts remain valid regardless of how one chooses to think about the ethical/moral/environmental cred or goodwill that Apple deserves for this move, or Apple's profit motives.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    Sure. But it's not the optimal experience.
    - Bud 6y ago
      For me it's an optimal experience: my device cost went down, I get to choose what I spend that money on (such as superior 3rd-party chargers with multiple ports), and I get the satisfaction of knowing that Apple didn't waste planetary resources making inflexible single-port chargers and $5 wired earbuds that I will never, ever use. I do admit that it's not optimal for every single user, but I do think it's a net improvement for most users.
      - paledot 6y ago
        Or Apple's did. Do you really think they're passing the savings on to the customer?
jbverschoor 6y ago
Long find apple user here. They’re really starting to lose me. all this shaving every little thing annoys the bell out of me. No long power cables anymore with laptops. No headphones. Wouldn’t matter if they don’t break. Or if the airpods last > 15minures after a year. Years have gone without fast chargers. Or usb c. Not they’re telling us that we already have enough chargers. We don’t. Because of you! I’m not getting a new phone, and refuse to buy apple’s headphones, cables or chargers. And I recommend people against it if they ask.
Nightshaxx 6y ago
The point isn't that nobody will have reduced packaging, the point is some people have reduced packaging. I'm not saying it's not a way for Apple to get PR points + save some money (that's exactly what it is). Your argument would mean it's pointless to buy a BMW electric car because they sell other cars that aren't. At Apple's scale, the reduction in packaging for a large chunk of consumers might acctually do something for the environment (and Tim Cook's pockets).
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  The same argument was made against banning single use plastic bags in supermarkets in Australia. People said that everyone would just continue to buy them and nothing will change. Turns out that most people did not keep buying them but instead took their old ones back to the store to reuse. Some people still buy them but overall there was a huge reduction. When you give someone something for free they will take that option every time, charge just 15c for the bag and people will decide that they will bring back their old bags because its a small savings for almost no effort. I also never see stray plastic bags floating around the street like I used to.
chias 6y ago
Looks like we've hugged it to death. https://web.archive.org/web/20201027202829/https://birchtree.me/blog/a-guy-walks-into-an-apple-store/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201027202829/https://birchtree...
ertemplin 6y ago
People are forgetting that you usually have to return your accessories (charger brick and cable) when you trade-in an old iPhone. So it's not like people have that many chargers laying around.
- bluedino 6y ago
  I’ve never done that. I just reset and unlock my phone and hand it over
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > you usually have to return your accessories (charger brick and cable) when you trade-in an old iPhone I've never ever done this and I've traded in every single iPhone I've ever owned. You just reset it, hand it over out of your pocket, and they don't even ask any questions.
- fetus8 6y ago
  Even if you use the iPhone Upgrade Program, you get to keep your old accessories.
- filoleg 6y ago
  No, you don't. I did their upgrade program trade-in for the past 2 years, not once did they ask to include the charger. The box instructions (in which you give them back your old phone) explicitly mention what needs to be included, and the charger (or any other accessories) is not there. Technically you might not count it as a trade-in, but it is effectively the same procedure. And I had plenty of friends who did trade-in not that long ago, they weren't asked to return the charger either.
carlivar 6y ago
Meanwhile I can share my Macbook Pro's charger with my Google Pixel phone.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  You can plug the new iPhone cable into the MacBook Pro charger as well. Or into any of the ports in your MacBook for that matter.
  - naosouumapessoa 6y ago
    You missed the point. He only need to take one cable with him to charge his pixel and MacBook (not at the same time) you’re suggesting him to take two cables. I will take the first option as I hate having to remember of multiple cables.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      Two cables is far better than two bricks.
      - carlivar 6y ago
        One brick. Basically I bring my Apple-issued MBP charger on the road and when I'm not charging the MBP I plug the same thing into the Pixel. Bonus: it's "rapid charging" for the Pixel.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      Battery life is good enough now I almost never carry cables around with me. I know not long ago this wasn't the case, but I haven't run out of power on my phone in several years. I'm really not seeing it, maybe you travel more than I do? Definitely not an issue many will have in COVID times.
slg 6y ago
>"Hello, I'd like to buy one of the new iPhones, please!" >"Sure thing, here's the new iPhone 12. It's fast, beautiful, and is generally awesome." >"Sweet, I'll take it..." I guess this is a different topic, but it wouldn't play out like this. You have to decide if you want the iPhone 12, the 12 Pro, the 12 Pro Max, the 12 mini, the SE, the 11, or the XR and then you decide do you want the white, black, blue, green, gold, yellow, purple, coral, or red, and then you decide 64 GB, 128 GB, 256 GB, or 512 GB, then you decide if you want AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, or Sprint. I have lost count of how many dozen of different SKUs of iPhone Apple is currently selling.
- Polylactic_acid 6y ago
  Its not really difficult though. When I went in to the store they showed me a row of 4 phones and told me the 11 was the most sensible option as well as the benefits you get from the pro. Picking a colour and storage option wasn't really an issue either.
  - slg 6y ago
    Odds are no one reading HN is going to find this "difficult", but there is no question that this is a noticeable diversion from earlier eras and that the sheer number of options can be confusing for some people. Take a look at this graphic [1]. There was a point early on in which there was zero choice and Apple sold only one iPhone. There were several years in which they usually offered somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-6 options. Recently this number ballooned up and right now there are 20 options. And this doesn't even include color or carrier differences. Honestly, I would be less annoyed by this if Apple wasn't still selling the iPhone XR. It is 2 year old hardware and Apple seems willing to keep selling it for another year. The only reason it is still being sold appears to be that someone in a boardroom in Cupertino said "we need a product between the $399 iPhone SE and the $599 iPhone 11." Meanwhile customers are likely better served by buying either the SE or the 11 over the XR. This approach of "name your price point, here is the iPhone for you" just seem antithetical to the way that Apple used to approach products. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Timeline_of_iPhone_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Timeline_of_iPhone_mo...
mesozoic 6y ago
If it is not obvious they are just pandering about reducing waste to make more money then you should probably shop for some bridges in the Sahara I hear they have nice deals now.
usaphp 6y ago
I have 3 iphones in my household that I change every 2 years or so. Before they removed the charging brick - I would end up with 3 charging bricks laying around my house. Now I can purchase 1 charging brick and use it to charge all of my phones. Also nothing prevents me from using my older charging cable with my older brick as well, so I am not sure why people can't understand that it is in fact reducing e-waste compared to if they shipped charging bricks with every iphone.
jtsiskin 6y ago
Everything in my life is now using USB-C charging, except for my iPhone. Is there a technical reason why Apple prefers their lightning cable over USB-C, or is it purely business related?
- Invictus0 6y ago
  On the other hand, I still don't own a single USB-C device or cable and I just bought the 2020 iPhone SE.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  I'm guessing a big part of it is the MASSIVE accessory ecosystem that's built around the iPhone. People have docks, cases, chargers, cables, etc. that all work with Lightning. I think also that USB-C is a more complicated protocol. Not all USB-C cables and ports are created equal and it could be a massive headache for them to deal with all the incompatibilities that might arise.
  - jbverschoor 6y ago
    They dropped the 30pin connector, which had a lot more accessories. Same for the jack.
    - RandallBrown 6y ago
      They did, but they used it for 11 years. The lightning connector, while still kinda old, isn't that old yet.
    - IkmoIkmo 6y ago
      Plus they dropped it for the lightning which didn't have as many accessories back then, compared to the myriad of usb c accessories available today.
- kd913 6y ago
  Last I checked Apple makes $4 for each lightning cable end on licensing fees. That is probably the primary reason.
samatman 6y ago
Literally every one of the existing options still works. Ok with charging at 5w? Plug your lightning-to-A cable into the little tiny cube charger they've been selling since forever. Already have a faster USB charger? It works. Ok with Qi at 7W? Works Oh, you want the new shiny MagSafe puck system? Great. Buy it. This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is supposed to be a better experience. It's completely additive to what we have now, nothing has been taken away: except the included charger and earphones, neither of which I would want to have. I expect MagSafe will be quite popular. But that's because it's cool, not because anything about the new generation of phones compels users to buy it.
- Zak 6y ago
  I'm disappointed Apple hasn't dropped Lightning and just made all their devices use standard USB-C. I could see their motivation for developing their own connector when everyone else was using micro-B, which has a number of disadvantages, but now USB-C is used to power virtually every other phone and tablet, and many laptops including Apple's own.
  - Shivetya 6y ago
    USB-C would have been the true environmentally friendly move
    - samatman 6y ago
      Throwing away a billion devices worth of accessories isn't the environmentally friendly move. I'm always confused how people talk themselves into believing this. It is obviously not the case.
      - joshl325 6y ago
        Unless Apple decides to ditch the port entirely in the near future, your argument doesn't make sense. Sure, there will be some minor pain during the transition, but the world did not end when Apple transitioned from the 30-pin to Lighting transition, nor did it end when phone manufacturers transitioned from micro-USB to USB-C. You can use USB-C to lightning adapter, like how they have 30-pin to lightning adapter earlier. Nobody will throwaway their lightning accessories. iPhones and its accessories have a strong used market, and it will find good homes to older iPhone users.
turtlebits 6y ago
The argument is a bit asinine. If the customer has half dozen bricks from previous iPhones (and by association half a dozen USB-A to lightning cables), they will all work with the new iPhones.
- beervirus 6y ago
  But not with the cable that does come with the new phone.
  - dwaite 6y ago
    There’s nothing special about that cable
    - beervirus 6y ago
      It’s special because Apple went to the trouble, expense, and shipping materials to include it.
joduplessis 6y ago
I'm always surprised how much petty bitching people do about Apple.
- nikau 6y ago
  It's akin to paying decent money for a Lexus and then having the dealer ask you to buy a tank of petrol - it sullies the experience. They could have at least included a 60 cent usb-a to usb-c dongle so you can charge with 99% of the existing power bricks out there.
m3kw9 6y ago
Just get a usbc to usba adaptor. Of course if you want top of the line stuff, pay more. If they include it, the price goes up but of course you don’t complaint because you don’t notice it every year you brought an iPhone.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
These "bitch and moan about Apple" posts on here are so tiresome. They're not smart, they're not funny, and serve zero purpose, except to cater to the echo chamber. Meanwhile Apple's phones continue to be extremely profitable. Lots of downvotes - I get it, I hit you where it hurts. But tell me where I'm wrong, discuss with me?
- macintux 6y ago
  Even as an Apple fan I found this post to be useful perspective. It is indeed an awkward change for new iPhone users, and those who don’t have USB-C chargers lying around. Apple ameliorated that by lowering the price on the auxiliary components, and I think it’s a good change overall, but the post still has merit.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    What merit does it have? Beyond - "company's marketing isn't accurate." We could do this for any company, yet we don't have countless snarky articles about their marketing departments. I can't imagine a company doing anything that will occupy my time as much as Apple lives rent free in the minds of some of these people on here.
jiofih 6y ago
All of the iPad and Macbook charging bricks have been USB-C for a while, there is definitely a huge population of users that already have one. Plus, you know, it plugs into any usb-c port, it doesn’t have to be white. You can also get a standard Qi charger for what, $15?
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  But they don't support the new faster Magsafe charging in the iPhone 12.
  - bpicolo 6y ago
    People have been reporting that the Magsafe charging is tremendously slow, unless you specifically have the paired 20w charger.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - totalZero 6y ago
      I heard the same. Then I saw this video, and now I'm not so sure. MagSafe: Does it charge at 15 watts? MagSafe test with 3rd party PD power adaptors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbcrbZdKGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbcrbZdKGI
  - jiofih 6y ago
    Are you sure? Those chargers are 30W and 60W.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      I don't know firsthand, but these guys say it's true: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-charging-restricted-to-apple-20w-adapter https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-...
    - jonny_eh 6y ago
Animats 6y ago
It's almost like Apple is emulating those grey-market photo dealers in Brooklyn who sold "stripped" cameras, minus all the accessories the manufacturer included, at lower prices.
- microtherion 6y ago
  … except for the "at lower prices" part, that is.
firecall 6y ago
Very well said!
ogre_codes 6y ago
I've spent the past couple years acquiring USB-C chargers for my MacBook and my iPad so it really doesn't play out in my household. While I don't have the "Puck" style charger, I do have a 29w USB-C charger I've used for fast charging my iPad for some time. While I agree with this guys article on a large part, I suspect the amount of extra waste here is over-stated. There will be fair number of people (like me) who saw the USB-C writing on the wall years ago. There are also a fair number of people who will just use the same cable they use on their current phone. I do think they should have either shipped a USB-A cable in the box since it's still the norm. Or at better, they should have switched to a USB-C brick a couple years ago then people would have them around.
tshaddox 6y ago
I agree that a major motivation here is that Apple will make a bit more money from some customers who are willing to pay. But I don't really agree with the claim that the environmental arguments are ridiculous. If everyone only buys the accessories they want, and assuming some customers previously received accessories in the box that they didn't need, then presumably this will actually reduce waste. There is still periodic "waste" when cable and charger standards change, which is happening right now, but that should happen far less often than the iPhone release cycle.
- chmod775 6y ago
  >But I don't really agree with the claim that the environmental arguments are ridiculous. Their arguments are completely and utterly ridiculous given Apple's other behavior. Environmental considerations clearly don't motivate them a single bit. If they gave even a single shit about the environment their devices would have easily replaceable batteries and would be designed to last instead of to be replaced every year. Also this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-geep-iphone-recycle-shred/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g... And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z17HAA-moY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z17HAA-moY Etc.
  - tshaddox 6y ago
    I suppose we're talking about a distinction between it being true that this decision will reduce waste, and this decision being primarily motivated by the desire to reduce waste. You seem to be saying "well yeah, they're reducing waste, but only because it's profitable for them." Shouldn't that be a good thing?! I would certainly prefer a world where decisions which tend to be good for the environment tend to also be good for business.
pfarnsworth 6y ago
Anyone who thinks this isn't a cost-cutting measure is delusional or utterly naive. This is strictly a bottom-line measure and they are draping it as a phony environmental move. Their profit margins are fat enough to afford a $5 charger, they just want to keep boosting their stock price.
jlengrand 6y ago
It's funny, because I bought my first apple watch last month. The website mentioned -> sustainability efforts, no cable. Ok, I bought a cable and a watch. Sat with my useless cable home for 4 days. Cable delivered after 3 days, watch after 5 weeks. Watch came with a cable. No matter how happy I am with my watch, I really feel like they were making fun of me. . .
- Eric_WVGG 6y ago
  I was puzzling over how you could have been misled — I am really, really positive they’ve never advertised "no cable" with the watches — and realized that you probably read "no charger." Is the puck a cable, dongle, or charger? I suppose all those labels make sense. But anyway — yeah, power bricks are common and Apple doesn't ship them by default anymore; Watch pucks are niche and it would be pretty dumb for Apple to ship Watches without them. advice: put your extra puck in your suitcase; if you accidentally travel without one you'll have a bad time
  - jlengrand 6y ago
    Hey, thanks for your comment. Thanks to you I now understand where the confusion comes from, and that's exactly what you wrote. From their website "As part of our efforts to reach our environmental goals, Apple Watch does not include a power adapter. Please use your existing Apple power adapter or add a new one before you check out." Being French, I read that as "does not include a charger" indeed. Reading you I now realize that means only the power adapter, and not the cable. I think it mostly comes down to me not being a Native English speaker I guess. Oh well, I'll know it for next time.
ashtonkem 6y ago
I really hate arguments about how much electricity wireless phone charging wastes because it makes people feel like they’re doing something when in fact they aren’t. Charging a cell phone every day for a year consumes about 1-2 kWh per phone. The average American household consumes 10,399 kWh per year, meaning that a typical smart phone consumes one 5000th, (0.02%) of a typical home’s electricity (excl. natural gas) budget. With wireless charging being 60-75% efficient, the literal worst case scenario is that you go from 2kWh to 3kWh. While that’s not nothing, it is damn close to nothing compared to HVAC or commuting, some of which involve burning more fossil fuels above and beyond the 10,399 kWh figure above. And I fear that burning out consumers on changes that will literally save maybe 1lb of CO2 per year (avg. of 0.99lbs per kWh in the US) might exhaust their will to make more meaningful changes that would have a larger impact. Heck, just not upgrading your phone every 2 years would have a bigger impact, since most of a phone’s emissions happen during production. Apple themselves say that each iPhone 12 will produce 70kg (154lb) of CO2 during its lifetime, 83% of that during production and only 14% during use.
- droopyEyelids 6y ago
  Is it just one person who is charging their phone wirelessly, or does it have the potential to be a large societal trend?
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    Assuming everybody were doing it, the percentage of residential power wasted on it would still be miniscule. And residential is only about a third of all power consumption. You may as well try to empty an ocean with a thimble.
  - reitzensteinm 6y ago
    This conversation is already about quantifying the impact of trends. If just one person is doing it, it's not worth talking about.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  I do notice a certain glee we have when we can frame other people wasting energy in ways we don't happen to waste ourselves. As if wireless phone charging or bitcoin mining or X are the last unturned stones in the pursuit of zero waste. Some condescension we can share on HN before we drive to Walmart for a single gallon of milk. It's weird how tempting it is. I had a roommate that used our clothes dryer daily. I have to admit I felt a little bit of ecosuperiority over him as I hung my clothes. Perhaps briefly pondering how much better the world would be if everyone gave up a luxury I personally could do without (while retaining all of my preferred luxuries for myself, of course). It's even funny just to think of all the apparatuses involved in me leaving this snooty comment on the internet, a pleasure you'll have to pry from my corpse!
racl101 6y ago
Enjoyed that read. You really do paint a picture.
karakot 6y ago
People like to be outraged with petty things these days.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  There's a pandemic on. People are pretty stressed. It's really normal -- though not necessarily wise -- to get all up in arms about little things when you are living with very high levels of stress and feel like you can't really do anything effective about the source of it.
diebeforei485 6y ago
The only criticism I have is that Apple stuck with USB-A far too long. If people are happy with slow charging, they can just buy new cables to replace their fraying old cables. Apple's PVC-free cables tend to fray if they are bent or stretched a lot, but there are plenty of cables with a PVC outer jacket (eg. AmazonBasics or Monoprice) that last longer in those scenarios.
rushils 6y ago
If Apple was truly out to help the environment, they would kill the lightning port altogether. Simplifying their product line to USB-C and aligning with the cables that the rest of the industry uses would actually contribute to helping the environment.
- Nbox9 6y ago
  Lightning port is there for legacy reasons. It use to be much better than the USB options. Now USB-C is good enough, and when they kill the lightning port a billions of cables will become useless in just a handful of years. I’d honestly prefer to see the wired charging port go away completely. Wireless charging is cheap and good.
  - capzulu 6y ago
    They did the same with the wired headphones. Removing the jack instantly killed thousands of wired headphones.
  - x3ro 6y ago
    That'd be amazing. Finally I could throw away all of my very good but obviously obsolete wired headphones and buy some AirPod Pro's instead* * battery not replaceable, buy new headphones every 3-5 years
  - LeonenTheDK 6y ago
    If they killed the port entirely, wouldn't everyone then be buying wireless chargers? Or is a "one time" purchase of a wireless charger for everyone better in the long term than one type of cable everywhere constantly being produced?
- sneak 6y ago
  I assume they intend to eventually, and have had to preserve it for this and the last 1-2 iPhone revs due to contractual obligations.
- judge2020 6y ago
  Don’t worry, 1-2 years and they’ll remove the port, meaning you (and the billion+ other people that will eventually get a new one) must use/buy a Qi charger (or MagSafe which really is Qi anyways).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
f6v 6y ago
> I have bought a new iPhone every 2 years for as long as iPhones have existed, I'm extremely loyal! So I can use one of the half dozen bricks I have in my house already? I mean, just don't buy iPhone every 2 years. 4+ years with iPhone 7, I'm very friendly towards environment.
- cpcallen 6y ago
  I acquired my previous phone in 2009, and continued to use it until early 2018. I expect it's replacement will last me a comparable length of time, though it will be more expensive to keep it going as it does not have a user-replaceable battery, unfortunately. :-(
apetrovic 6y ago
Can we just say that the new iPhone 12 is $850, $830 if you don't want the charger, and finish with this nonsense? The amount of drama around $20 charger from people able & willing to pay premium product is astounding.
torgian 6y ago
Don’t forget it’s not really “wireless “ charging; it’s a two handed operation to take the puck off. Might as well just use a usb cable...
magoon 6y ago
By removing the charger from the package, you may have to buy a charger that comes in its own packaging. Net new waste. Including the charger in the package was actually the best way to prevent additional waste. Moreover, an iPhone box is potentially an item people will not throw out, while the charger packaging is.
- hugecannon 6y ago
  > charger that comes in its own packaging. Net new waste. I think the point is that the charger itself is the waste being avoided. Not the charger packaging. Surely Apple have done some analysis into what portion of their customers will not require an additional charger with each phone purchase.
  - llampx 6y ago
    I'm sure Apple has done analysis... to see how many USB-C chargers they'll be able to sell. And has likely provided training to staff accordingly to get accessories sales up. Where the customer may have been happy with the 5W charger and crappy earphones included in the box, it'll be a MUCH easier upsell to a fast charger and good earphones now.
gbrindisi 6y ago
I dont buy any environmental argument from Apple until they drop Lighting and put USB-C as everyone else
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
It's called a BOM reduction, Tim Cook has to make phones more profitable year on year, one way to do that is to reduce the cost it is to manufacture them. Small savings add up. The environmental excuse is just PR, they still have to put cables and chargers in boxes and ship them half way across the world. If they really cared about waste they'd make their hardware last longer, my Powerbook G4's power cable still works fine 18 years later and isn't frayed. Every modern Macbook power cable I have it frayed and dangerous just months after purchase requiring 2-3 units to be bought over the life of the laptop to remain safe.
ryankrage77 6y ago
I've been trying to figure out an 'optimal' solution to this problem, and I'm not sure there is one. Include a charging brick - extra waste, less phones shipped per container, etc. Bad for the environment. Switch to USB-C - millions of lightning cables need to be disposed of. Bad for the environment Include a lightning-to-USB-A cable but no charging brick, so people can use their existing bricks - people already have lightning-to-USB-A cables with their existing bricks, so people get extra redundant cables & people need to buy lightning-to-USB-C cables instead. Bad for the environment. Apple's current solution (no charging brick, lightning-to-USB-C cable) - people can use existing iPhone chargers, plug it into their mac or USB-C accessories. Some people need to buy a new brick or wireless charger. Still pretty bad for the environment, but arguably better than the above ideas. Make a user-serviceable phone with replaceable battery, etc, so it lasts longer and they can slow down the phone release cycle - iPhone prices go up, Apple's stock goes down. A bad move for Apple, but probably better for the environment.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  1. Optional brick 2. Connector adapter. 3. Battery is replaceable. Just take/send it in to the shop or sell it to a refurbisher. This isn't rocket science.
jerome-jh 6y ago
If that's real, the guy should not conclude he still likes Apple: he should definitely hate it for being so deceptive, first of all. Some say free market will solve the environment crisis because customers will turn away from polluting companies to virtuous ones. They just won't.

569 points by tobr 6y ago

Bud 6y ago

Here's what the article claims: "Now tell me, do you have Apple's 20W USB-C charging brick to use with this? It doesn't come with a charging brick either, and to get the advertised speeds then you need to use that brick. Literally no other charging bricks will get that speed." Here's what's actually true: Any USB-C charger with a port on it capable of 20W or higher (including all extant USB-C Mac chargers and all extant USB-C PC chargers) will drive MagSafe at full power, and the author probably knew this, but it's inconvenient to acknowledge it. Such chargers are extremely common.

Xavdidtheshadow 6y ago
Actually, per this article [1] that may not be the case. Copying a comment from reddit: > PD has certain charging ‘profiles’. > For example Apples 30W USB-C charger can work at: > 15 watts (5 volts @ 3 amps), 27 watts (9 volts @ 3 amps), 30 watts (15 volts @ 2 amps), and 30 watts (20 volts @ 1.5 amps) > The MagSafe puck supports none of those for some reason. So it drops down to ~5W which is a safe backup amount for most devices. > The new 20W charger appears to have a new profile it supports for the full 20W, which so far seems to be unique to that charger + MagSafe combo. It’s... messy. [1]: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-charging-restricted-to-apple-20w-adapter https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-...
- Bud 6y ago
  Thank you for the correction!
- Kirby64 6y ago
  Would be interesting to see what PD profile it's negotiating here that is different. I wouldn't be surprised if Anker et al. come out with MagSafe 15W compatible chargers shortly. Seems like it might be a 9V 1.8A profile or something silly? I'm surprised some of these tech YouTubers that do this stuff don't have a proper USB-PD profile analyzer. Something like this could find all the secrets necessary for Anker to recreate a functional brick: https://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-analyzer/ https://www.totalphase.com/products/usb-power-delivery-analy...
fetus8 6y ago
https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/62D963CD-BE12-41FB-A840-B775BB9AEF2D?ingress=2&visitId=50619824-76f8-4acf-b295-cf7b6a0b5388&ref_=ast_bln https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/62D963CD-BE12-41FB-A840-B... Anker has about a ton of these, including 20W or higher ones, under $20.
artemonster 6y ago
Not sure whether you've tested your claims, I've heard people complaining (loudly!) that their anker chargers and powerbanks with PD (and rated with needed wattage) are not working, because Apple opted for some really strange voltage profile negotiation, that only small portion of the existing chargers support.

paxys 6y ago

I don't think even the most hardcore Apple superfans are buying the "reducing waste" argument. They have the right to make their products more expensive, and that's fine. People are going to keep buying them regardless.

Bud 6y ago
They didn't make the products more expensive, though. The iPhone 12 Pro series got cheaper (for the equivalent storage). They also made the charger and cable in question cheaper, for the small minority of users who actually need those items.
- skohan 6y ago
  I have heard a lot of speculation that the move to remove the charger was motivated by Apple's desire to sell more chargers, but I suspect that they could care less about moving chargers. I believe it is profit motivated, but the real reason is the massive savings they will get on logistics by fitting almost 50% more iPhones in a shipping container by removing the charger. If they pass some of that savings onto the consumer, it seems like it's win-win.
  - robocat 6y ago
    > but the real reason is the massive savings they will get on logistics When positing causes, I suggest you learn how to do back-of-the-envelope calculations in your head. A container can hold a lot of iPhones. The cost of transport is trivial in comparison to the value, so the profitability delta is very small. I.e. I think you are making up stuff.
    - skohan 6y ago
      Yeah sure, the price of logistics is probably tiny compared to the BOM of an individual phone, but at the scale Apple is operating on, make no mistake this is saving them a huge amount of money. And it's not just logistics - it's storage space in warehouses, and probably a number of other things which are made substantially more efficient by fitting the same amount of units in a lot less space.

cma 6y ago

What's the point of the mag-safe branding if the magnet doesn't really provide any safety if you trip on the cord, since the phones are so lightweight and would still get yanked to the ground?

henriquez 6y ago
Seems like literally just a trademark Apple had laying around. I also don't see how it's better or more convenient than just plugging in a cord. From what I understand it wastes a lot of electricity.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  It wastes less electricity than normal Qi wireless charging because it can line up the coils more perfectly. It also opens up a whole ecosystem of MagSafe accessories like wallets, car mounts, tripods, etc.
  - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    I’d also guess that MagSafe won’t wear out the phone socket as quickly, as one isn’t wearing down the socket with the friction of inserting cables. I’ve had to replace at least a couple phones from the socket being too “jiggly” to trust that the charging cable would retain contact. Nothing sucks more than waking up to a phone at 5% charge on a day when you need your phone.
- nickthegreek 6y ago
  I found the the best thing with it is that it can be done with one hand. I would consider it way more convenient for me and I can’t wait til a 3rd part releases a car mount.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

supernova87a 6y ago

Well, if they were going to make the change and yank the charging brick, they would have to do it sometime, and it would break some number of people. It's just a question of when exactly. Is that not correct?

908B64B197 6y ago

Had they not recently changed the charging options (shipping USB-C cables and MagSafe) and stuck with the classical Lightning to USB-A scheme I would have been fine with Apple not bundling the cables and chargers in the box. Because most folks have them in excess and these don't ever die. But since they changed the charging options, it really feels like a cost cutting measure they are trying really hard to spin as an eco-friendly one.

Bud 6y ago
Why? All of those old USB-A chargers and USB-A/Lightning cables will still charge the new iPhones perfectly well. So will every iPad charger ever made, btw. And every USB-C Mac charger ever made. Honestly, it doesn't matter whether you or any particular observer wants to give credit for this reducing e-waste or being "eco-friendly". It's a plainly obvious fact that it will massively reduce e-waste and be a massive net positive on the eco-friendly front, in about 5 different ways. Those facts remain valid regardless of how one chooses to think about the ethical/moral/environmental cred or goodwill that Apple deserves for this move, or Apple's profit motives.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Sure. But it's not the optimal experience.
  - Bud 6y ago
    For me it's an optimal experience: my device cost went down, I get to choose what I spend that money on (such as superior 3rd-party chargers with multiple ports), and I get the satisfaction of knowing that Apple didn't waste planetary resources making inflexible single-port chargers and $5 wired earbuds that I will never, ever use. I do admit that it's not optimal for every single user, but I do think it's a net improvement for most users.
    - paledot 6y ago
      Or Apple's did. Do you really think they're passing the savings on to the customer?

jbverschoor 6y ago

Long find apple user here. They’re really starting to lose me. all this shaving every little thing annoys the bell out of me. No long power cables anymore with laptops. No headphones. Wouldn’t matter if they don’t break. Or if the airpods last > 15minures after a year. Years have gone without fast chargers. Or usb c. Not they’re telling us that we already have enough chargers. We don’t. Because of you! I’m not getting a new phone, and refuse to buy apple’s headphones, cables or chargers. And I recommend people against it if they ask.

Nightshaxx 6y ago

The point isn't that nobody will have reduced packaging, the point is some people have reduced packaging. I'm not saying it's not a way for Apple to get PR points + save some money (that's exactly what it is). Your argument would mean it's pointless to buy a BMW electric car because they sell other cars that aren't. At Apple's scale, the reduction in packaging for a large chunk of consumers might acctually do something for the environment (and Tim Cook's pockets).

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
The same argument was made against banning single use plastic bags in supermarkets in Australia. People said that everyone would just continue to buy them and nothing will change. Turns out that most people did not keep buying them but instead took their old ones back to the store to reuse. Some people still buy them but overall there was a huge reduction. When you give someone something for free they will take that option every time, charge just 15c for the bag and people will decide that they will bring back their old bags because its a small savings for almost no effort. I also never see stray plastic bags floating around the street like I used to.

chias 6y ago

Looks like we've hugged it to death. https://web.archive.org/web/20201027202829/https://birchtree.me/blog/a-guy-walks-into-an-apple-store/ https://web.archive.org/web/20201027202829/https://birchtree...

ertemplin 6y ago

People are forgetting that you usually have to return your accessories (charger brick and cable) when you trade-in an old iPhone. So it's not like people have that many chargers laying around.

bluedino 6y ago
I’ve never done that. I just reset and unlock my phone and hand it over
chrisseaton 6y ago
> you usually have to return your accessories (charger brick and cable) when you trade-in an old iPhone I've never ever done this and I've traded in every single iPhone I've ever owned. You just reset it, hand it over out of your pocket, and they don't even ask any questions.
fetus8 6y ago
Even if you use the iPhone Upgrade Program, you get to keep your old accessories.
filoleg 6y ago
No, you don't. I did their upgrade program trade-in for the past 2 years, not once did they ask to include the charger. The box instructions (in which you give them back your old phone) explicitly mention what needs to be included, and the charger (or any other accessories) is not there. Technically you might not count it as a trade-in, but it is effectively the same procedure. And I had plenty of friends who did trade-in not that long ago, they weren't asked to return the charger either.

carlivar 6y ago

Meanwhile I can share my Macbook Pro's charger with my Google Pixel phone.

ogre_codes 6y ago
You can plug the new iPhone cable into the MacBook Pro charger as well. Or into any of the ports in your MacBook for that matter.
- naosouumapessoa 6y ago
  You missed the point. He only need to take one cable with him to charge his pixel and MacBook (not at the same time) you’re suggesting him to take two cables. I will take the first option as I hate having to remember of multiple cables.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Two cables is far better than two bricks.
    - carlivar 6y ago
      One brick. Basically I bring my Apple-issued MBP charger on the road and when I'm not charging the MBP I plug the same thing into the Pixel. Bonus: it's "rapid charging" for the Pixel.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Battery life is good enough now I almost never carry cables around with me. I know not long ago this wasn't the case, but I haven't run out of power on my phone in several years. I'm really not seeing it, maybe you travel more than I do? Definitely not an issue many will have in COVID times.

slg 6y ago

>"Hello, I'd like to buy one of the new iPhones, please!" >"Sure thing, here's the new iPhone 12. It's fast, beautiful, and is generally awesome." >"Sweet, I'll take it..." I guess this is a different topic, but it wouldn't play out like this. You have to decide if you want the iPhone 12, the 12 Pro, the 12 Pro Max, the 12 mini, the SE, the 11, or the XR and then you decide do you want the white, black, blue, green, gold, yellow, purple, coral, or red, and then you decide 64 GB, 128 GB, 256 GB, or 512 GB, then you decide if you want AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, or Sprint. I have lost count of how many dozen of different SKUs of iPhone Apple is currently selling.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago
Its not really difficult though. When I went in to the store they showed me a row of 4 phones and told me the 11 was the most sensible option as well as the benefits you get from the pro. Picking a colour and storage option wasn't really an issue either.
- slg 6y ago
  Odds are no one reading HN is going to find this "difficult", but there is no question that this is a noticeable diversion from earlier eras and that the sheer number of options can be confusing for some people. Take a look at this graphic [1]. There was a point early on in which there was zero choice and Apple sold only one iPhone. There were several years in which they usually offered somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-6 options. Recently this number ballooned up and right now there are 20 options. And this doesn't even include color or carrier differences. Honestly, I would be less annoyed by this if Apple wasn't still selling the iPhone XR. It is 2 year old hardware and Apple seems willing to keep selling it for another year. The only reason it is still being sold appears to be that someone in a boardroom in Cupertino said "we need a product between the $399 iPhone SE and the $599 iPhone 11." Meanwhile customers are likely better served by buying either the SE or the 11 over the XR. This approach of "name your price point, here is the iPhone for you" just seem antithetical to the way that Apple used to approach products. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Timeline_of_iPhone_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Timeline_of_iPhone_mo...

mesozoic 6y ago

If it is not obvious they are just pandering about reducing waste to make more money then you should probably shop for some bridges in the Sahara I hear they have nice deals now.

usaphp 6y ago

I have 3 iphones in my household that I change every 2 years or so. Before they removed the charging brick - I would end up with 3 charging bricks laying around my house. Now I can purchase 1 charging brick and use it to charge all of my phones. Also nothing prevents me from using my older charging cable with my older brick as well, so I am not sure why people can't understand that it is in fact reducing e-waste compared to if they shipped charging bricks with every iphone.

jtsiskin 6y ago

Everything in my life is now using USB-C charging, except for my iPhone. Is there a technical reason why Apple prefers their lightning cable over USB-C, or is it purely business related?

Invictus0 6y ago
On the other hand, I still don't own a single USB-C device or cable and I just bought the 2020 iPhone SE.
RandallBrown 6y ago
I'm guessing a big part of it is the MASSIVE accessory ecosystem that's built around the iPhone. People have docks, cases, chargers, cables, etc. that all work with Lightning. I think also that USB-C is a more complicated protocol. Not all USB-C cables and ports are created equal and it could be a massive headache for them to deal with all the incompatibilities that might arise.
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  They dropped the 30pin connector, which had a lot more accessories. Same for the jack.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    They did, but they used it for 11 years. The lightning connector, while still kinda old, isn't that old yet.
  - IkmoIkmo 6y ago
    Plus they dropped it for the lightning which didn't have as many accessories back then, compared to the myriad of usb c accessories available today.
kd913 6y ago
Last I checked Apple makes $4 for each lightning cable end on licensing fees. That is probably the primary reason.

samatman 6y ago

Literally every one of the existing options still works. Ok with charging at 5w? Plug your lightning-to-A cable into the little tiny cube charger they've been selling since forever. Already have a faster USB charger? It works. Ok with Qi at 7W? Works Oh, you want the new shiny MagSafe puck system? Great. Buy it. This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is supposed to be a better experience. It's completely additive to what we have now, nothing has been taken away: except the included charger and earphones, neither of which I would want to have. I expect MagSafe will be quite popular. But that's because it's cool, not because anything about the new generation of phones compels users to buy it.

Zak 6y ago
I'm disappointed Apple hasn't dropped Lightning and just made all their devices use standard USB-C. I could see their motivation for developing their own connector when everyone else was using micro-B, which has a number of disadvantages, but now USB-C is used to power virtually every other phone and tablet, and many laptops including Apple's own.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  USB-C would have been the true environmentally friendly move
  - samatman 6y ago
    Throwing away a billion devices worth of accessories isn't the environmentally friendly move. I'm always confused how people talk themselves into believing this. It is obviously not the case.
    - joshl325 6y ago
      Unless Apple decides to ditch the port entirely in the near future, your argument doesn't make sense. Sure, there will be some minor pain during the transition, but the world did not end when Apple transitioned from the 30-pin to Lighting transition, nor did it end when phone manufacturers transitioned from micro-USB to USB-C. You can use USB-C to lightning adapter, like how they have 30-pin to lightning adapter earlier. Nobody will throwaway their lightning accessories. iPhones and its accessories have a strong used market, and it will find good homes to older iPhone users.

turtlebits 6y ago

The argument is a bit asinine. If the customer has half dozen bricks from previous iPhones (and by association half a dozen USB-A to lightning cables), they will all work with the new iPhones.

beervirus 6y ago
But not with the cable that does come with the new phone.
- dwaite 6y ago
  There’s nothing special about that cable
  - beervirus 6y ago
    It’s special because Apple went to the trouble, expense, and shipping materials to include it.

joduplessis 6y ago

I'm always surprised how much petty bitching people do about Apple.

nikau 6y ago
It's akin to paying decent money for a Lexus and then having the dealer ask you to buy a tank of petrol - it sullies the experience. They could have at least included a 60 cent usb-a to usb-c dongle so you can charge with 99% of the existing power bricks out there.

m3kw9 6y ago

Just get a usbc to usba adaptor. Of course if you want top of the line stuff, pay more. If they include it, the price goes up but of course you don’t complaint because you don’t notice it every year you brought an iPhone.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

These "bitch and moan about Apple" posts on here are so tiresome. They're not smart, they're not funny, and serve zero purpose, except to cater to the echo chamber. Meanwhile Apple's phones continue to be extremely profitable. Lots of downvotes - I get it, I hit you where it hurts. But tell me where I'm wrong, discuss with me?

macintux 6y ago
Even as an Apple fan I found this post to be useful perspective. It is indeed an awkward change for new iPhone users, and those who don’t have USB-C chargers lying around. Apple ameliorated that by lowering the price on the auxiliary components, and I think it’s a good change overall, but the post still has merit.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  What merit does it have? Beyond - "company's marketing isn't accurate." We could do this for any company, yet we don't have countless snarky articles about their marketing departments. I can't imagine a company doing anything that will occupy my time as much as Apple lives rent free in the minds of some of these people on here.

jiofih 6y ago

All of the iPad and Macbook charging bricks have been USB-C for a while, there is definitely a huge population of users that already have one. Plus, you know, it plugs into any usb-c port, it doesn’t have to be white. You can also get a standard Qi charger for what, $15?

jonny_eh 6y ago
But they don't support the new faster Magsafe charging in the iPhone 12.
- bpicolo 6y ago
  People have been reporting that the Magsafe charging is tremendously slow, unless you specifically have the paired 20w charger.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - totalZero 6y ago
    I heard the same. Then I saw this video, and now I'm not so sure. MagSafe: Does it charge at 15 watts? MagSafe test with 3rd party PD power adaptors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbcrbZdKGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbcrbZdKGI
- jiofih 6y ago
  Are you sure? Those chargers are 30W and 60W.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    I don't know firsthand, but these guys say it's true: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-charging-restricted-to-apple-20w-adapter https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/27/magsafe-15w-fast-...
  - jonny_eh 6y ago

Animats 6y ago

It's almost like Apple is emulating those grey-market photo dealers in Brooklyn who sold "stripped" cameras, minus all the accessories the manufacturer included, at lower prices.

microtherion 6y ago
… except for the "at lower prices" part, that is.

firecall 6y ago

Very well said!

ogre_codes 6y ago

I've spent the past couple years acquiring USB-C chargers for my MacBook and my iPad so it really doesn't play out in my household. While I don't have the "Puck" style charger, I do have a 29w USB-C charger I've used for fast charging my iPad for some time. While I agree with this guys article on a large part, I suspect the amount of extra waste here is over-stated. There will be fair number of people (like me) who saw the USB-C writing on the wall years ago. There are also a fair number of people who will just use the same cable they use on their current phone. I do think they should have either shipped a USB-A cable in the box since it's still the norm. Or at better, they should have switched to a USB-C brick a couple years ago then people would have them around.

tshaddox 6y ago

I agree that a major motivation here is that Apple will make a bit more money from some customers who are willing to pay. But I don't really agree with the claim that the environmental arguments are ridiculous. If everyone only buys the accessories they want, and assuming some customers previously received accessories in the box that they didn't need, then presumably this will actually reduce waste. There is still periodic "waste" when cable and charger standards change, which is happening right now, but that should happen far less often than the iPhone release cycle.

chmod775 6y ago
>But I don't really agree with the claim that the environmental arguments are ridiculous. Their arguments are completely and utterly ridiculous given Apple's other behavior. Environmental considerations clearly don't motivate them a single bit. If they gave even a single shit about the environment their devices would have easily replaceable batteries and would be designed to last instead of to be replaced every year. Also this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-geep-iphone-recycle-shred/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g... And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z17HAA-moY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z17HAA-moY Etc.
- tshaddox 6y ago
  I suppose we're talking about a distinction between it being true that this decision will reduce waste, and this decision being primarily motivated by the desire to reduce waste. You seem to be saying "well yeah, they're reducing waste, but only because it's profitable for them." Shouldn't that be a good thing?! I would certainly prefer a world where decisions which tend to be good for the environment tend to also be good for business.

pfarnsworth 6y ago

Anyone who thinks this isn't a cost-cutting measure is delusional or utterly naive. This is strictly a bottom-line measure and they are draping it as a phony environmental move. Their profit margins are fat enough to afford a $5 charger, they just want to keep boosting their stock price.

jlengrand 6y ago

It's funny, because I bought my first apple watch last month. The website mentioned -> sustainability efforts, no cable. Ok, I bought a cable and a watch. Sat with my useless cable home for 4 days. Cable delivered after 3 days, watch after 5 weeks. Watch came with a cable. No matter how happy I am with my watch, I really feel like they were making fun of me. . .

Eric_WVGG 6y ago
I was puzzling over how you could have been misled — I am really, really positive they’ve never advertised "no cable" with the watches — and realized that you probably read "no charger." Is the puck a cable, dongle, or charger? I suppose all those labels make sense. But anyway — yeah, power bricks are common and Apple doesn't ship them by default anymore; Watch pucks are niche and it would be pretty dumb for Apple to ship Watches without them. advice: put your extra puck in your suitcase; if you accidentally travel without one you'll have a bad time
- jlengrand 6y ago
  Hey, thanks for your comment. Thanks to you I now understand where the confusion comes from, and that's exactly what you wrote. From their website "As part of our efforts to reach our environmental goals, Apple Watch does not include a power adapter. Please use your existing Apple power adapter or add a new one before you check out." Being French, I read that as "does not include a charger" indeed. Reading you I now realize that means only the power adapter, and not the cable. I think it mostly comes down to me not being a Native English speaker I guess. Oh well, I'll know it for next time.

ashtonkem 6y ago

I really hate arguments about how much electricity wireless phone charging wastes because it makes people feel like they’re doing something when in fact they aren’t. Charging a cell phone every day for a year consumes about 1-2 kWh per phone. The average American household consumes 10,399 kWh per year, meaning that a typical smart phone consumes one 5000th, (0.02%) of a typical home’s electricity (excl. natural gas) budget. With wireless charging being 60-75% efficient, the literal worst case scenario is that you go from 2kWh to 3kWh. While that’s not nothing, it is damn close to nothing compared to HVAC or commuting, some of which involve burning more fossil fuels above and beyond the 10,399 kWh figure above. And I fear that burning out consumers on changes that will literally save maybe 1lb of CO2 per year (avg. of 0.99lbs per kWh in the US) might exhaust their will to make more meaningful changes that would have a larger impact. Heck, just not upgrading your phone every 2 years would have a bigger impact, since most of a phone’s emissions happen during production. Apple themselves say that each iPhone 12 will produce 70kg (154lb) of CO2 during its lifetime, 83% of that during production and only 14% during use.

droopyEyelids 6y ago
Is it just one person who is charging their phone wirelessly, or does it have the potential to be a large societal trend?
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Assuming everybody were doing it, the percentage of residential power wasted on it would still be miniscule. And residential is only about a third of all power consumption. You may as well try to empty an ocean with a thimble.
- reitzensteinm 6y ago
  This conversation is already about quantifying the impact of trends. If just one person is doing it, it's not worth talking about.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
I do notice a certain glee we have when we can frame other people wasting energy in ways we don't happen to waste ourselves. As if wireless phone charging or bitcoin mining or X are the last unturned stones in the pursuit of zero waste. Some condescension we can share on HN before we drive to Walmart for a single gallon of milk. It's weird how tempting it is. I had a roommate that used our clothes dryer daily. I have to admit I felt a little bit of ecosuperiority over him as I hung my clothes. Perhaps briefly pondering how much better the world would be if everyone gave up a luxury I personally could do without (while retaining all of my preferred luxuries for myself, of course). It's even funny just to think of all the apparatuses involved in me leaving this snooty comment on the internet, a pleasure you'll have to pry from my corpse!

racl101 6y ago

Enjoyed that read. You really do paint a picture.

karakot 6y ago

People like to be outraged with petty things these days.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
There's a pandemic on. People are pretty stressed. It's really normal -- though not necessarily wise -- to get all up in arms about little things when you are living with very high levels of stress and feel like you can't really do anything effective about the source of it.

diebeforei485 6y ago

The only criticism I have is that Apple stuck with USB-A far too long. If people are happy with slow charging, they can just buy new cables to replace their fraying old cables. Apple's PVC-free cables tend to fray if they are bent or stretched a lot, but there are plenty of cables with a PVC outer jacket (eg. AmazonBasics or Monoprice) that last longer in those scenarios.

rushils 6y ago

If Apple was truly out to help the environment, they would kill the lightning port altogether. Simplifying their product line to USB-C and aligning with the cables that the rest of the industry uses would actually contribute to helping the environment.

Nbox9 6y ago
Lightning port is there for legacy reasons. It use to be much better than the USB options. Now USB-C is good enough, and when they kill the lightning port a billions of cables will become useless in just a handful of years. I’d honestly prefer to see the wired charging port go away completely. Wireless charging is cheap and good.
- capzulu 6y ago
  They did the same with the wired headphones. Removing the jack instantly killed thousands of wired headphones.
- x3ro 6y ago
  That'd be amazing. Finally I could throw away all of my very good but obviously obsolete wired headphones and buy some AirPod Pro's instead* * battery not replaceable, buy new headphones every 3-5 years
- LeonenTheDK 6y ago
  If they killed the port entirely, wouldn't everyone then be buying wireless chargers? Or is a "one time" purchase of a wireless charger for everyone better in the long term than one type of cable everywhere constantly being produced?
sneak 6y ago
I assume they intend to eventually, and have had to preserve it for this and the last 1-2 iPhone revs due to contractual obligations.
judge2020 6y ago
Don’t worry, 1-2 years and they’ll remove the port, meaning you (and the billion+ other people that will eventually get a new one) must use/buy a Qi charger (or MagSafe which really is Qi anyways).

deleted 6y ago

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f6v 6y ago

> I have bought a new iPhone every 2 years for as long as iPhones have existed, I'm extremely loyal! So I can use one of the half dozen bricks I have in my house already? I mean, just don't buy iPhone every 2 years. 4+ years with iPhone 7, I'm very friendly towards environment.

cpcallen 6y ago
I acquired my previous phone in 2009, and continued to use it until early 2018. I expect it's replacement will last me a comparable length of time, though it will be more expensive to keep it going as it does not have a user-replaceable battery, unfortunately. :-(

apetrovic 6y ago

Can we just say that the new iPhone 12 is $850, $830 if you don't want the charger, and finish with this nonsense? The amount of drama around $20 charger from people able & willing to pay premium product is astounding.

torgian 6y ago

Don’t forget it’s not really “wireless “ charging; it’s a two handed operation to take the puck off. Might as well just use a usb cable...

magoon 6y ago

By removing the charger from the package, you may have to buy a charger that comes in its own packaging. Net new waste. Including the charger in the package was actually the best way to prevent additional waste. Moreover, an iPhone box is potentially an item people will not throw out, while the charger packaging is.

hugecannon 6y ago
> charger that comes in its own packaging. Net new waste. I think the point is that the charger itself is the waste being avoided. Not the charger packaging. Surely Apple have done some analysis into what portion of their customers will not require an additional charger with each phone purchase.
- llampx 6y ago
  I'm sure Apple has done analysis... to see how many USB-C chargers they'll be able to sell. And has likely provided training to staff accordingly to get accessories sales up. Where the customer may have been happy with the 5W charger and crappy earphones included in the box, it'll be a MUCH easier upsell to a fast charger and good earphones now.

gbrindisi 6y ago

I dont buy any environmental argument from Apple until they drop Lighting and put USB-C as everyone else

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

It's called a BOM reduction, Tim Cook has to make phones more profitable year on year, one way to do that is to reduce the cost it is to manufacture them. Small savings add up. The environmental excuse is just PR, they still have to put cables and chargers in boxes and ship them half way across the world. If they really cared about waste they'd make their hardware last longer, my Powerbook G4's power cable still works fine 18 years later and isn't frayed. Every modern Macbook power cable I have it frayed and dangerous just months after purchase requiring 2-3 units to be bought over the life of the laptop to remain safe.

ryankrage77 6y ago

I've been trying to figure out an 'optimal' solution to this problem, and I'm not sure there is one. Include a charging brick - extra waste, less phones shipped per container, etc. Bad for the environment. Switch to USB-C - millions of lightning cables need to be disposed of. Bad for the environment Include a lightning-to-USB-A cable but no charging brick, so people can use their existing bricks - people already have lightning-to-USB-A cables with their existing bricks, so people get extra redundant cables & people need to buy lightning-to-USB-C cables instead. Bad for the environment. Apple's current solution (no charging brick, lightning-to-USB-C cable) - people can use existing iPhone chargers, plug it into their mac or USB-C accessories. Some people need to buy a new brick or wireless charger. Still pretty bad for the environment, but arguably better than the above ideas. Make a user-serviceable phone with replaceable battery, etc, so it lasts longer and they can slow down the phone release cycle - iPhone prices go up, Apple's stock goes down. A bad move for Apple, but probably better for the environment.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
1. Optional brick 2. Connector adapter. 3. Battery is replaceable. Just take/send it in to the shop or sell it to a refurbisher. This isn't rocket science.

jerome-jh 6y ago

If that's real, the guy should not conclude he still likes Apple: he should definitely hate it for being so deceptive, first of all. Some say free market will solve the environment crisis because customers will turn away from polluting companies to virtuous ones. They just won't.