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Jack Ma's Ant Group set for record $34B market debut
- eunos 6y agoFrom what I read and watched about Alipay, seems very convenient. Too bad it won't be available to non-Chinese users anytime soon.
- Tepix 6y agoIf you pay on AliExpress today you are using AliPay.
- bufferoverflow 6y ago"using" only in the sense that your website visitors use Google Analytics.
- Tepix 6y agoNo, you actually have to get an AliPay account if my memory serves me correctly. It's been a few years since i created the account.
- gruez 6y agoBut it's still processed via the visa/mastercard network. It's "alipay" in the same sense that the recent magnetic accessories for the iPhone 12 is "magsafe". Totally different things, same branding.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoCloser analogy would be Paypal I think.
- ButWhatFor 6y agoI think I’ve seen someone pay with AliPay using their face... pretty far ahead of what we have...
- gruez 6y ago>pretty far ahead of what we have... call me a luddite but that's one innovation that I can do without.
- ButWhatFor 6y agoAgreed - but if you live in China, the government already has your face mapped and is tracking you wherever you go... so maybe it is a zero additional cost for their citizens to give their face away to another application.
- netsharc 6y agoI was in an airport in China. A screen said "Walk up to the camera and we'll tell you which way to your gate.". I did so, the screen highlighted my face on the camera feed, showed me my name and my gate. Geezus Christ, they don't hide the fact that they're tracking faces... When you first enter China, you have to let a machine scan your face (IIRC fingerprints too?), and locals have to scan their (RFID-enabled) IDs to enter airports or train stations; so they seem to really have total control.
- nogabebop23 6y agoI hear this and feel fear. "It's 1984 come to life", I shout. I suspect in China they look at this advance proudly and say "What a Brave New World!"
- dmurray 6y agoLondon Heathrow has face-tracking gates. Entering the US has required fingerprints for many years, at least for me. I can't imagine how an international traveller could in good faith single out China as having "total control" on these grounds in a way that is qualitatively different from Western countries.
- wenc 6y agoU.S. airports do this too, but you can opt-out. https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2019/08/16/biometric-airport-screening-facial-recognition-everything-you-need-know/1998749001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2019/08/1... Some flights from Europe to US do this at the gate -- there's no opt-out. I remember flying AA from AMS and everybody had to get scanned before boarding (CBP agents were present).
- woutr_be 6y agoI use it in Hong Kong, it's very convenient to pay utility bills with. Some merchants also accept it for online payments, and you can pay with it at convenient stores, although Octopus card is far easier there.
- FeloniousHam 6y agoAs an American ignorant of Alipay/WeChat, I don't understand why they are perceived to be more convenient/advanced than the credit card system here. I tap my phone/card to pay at the register, enter the card number once for utilities in a webpage, that pretty low friction.
- woutr_be 6y agoFor paying at stores, I also just use credit cars (Apple Pay), it’s indeed more convenient. For utilities, I open the app, check if I have a bill and click “pay”. It’s nice to be able to pay all utilities from one app, instead of having to log in to different sites and enter my details. But I think one of the main things is also that you can connect it to your bank account, so it essentially becomes what a debit card is.
- _-___________-_ 6y agoI'm not Chinese and I use Alipay all the time :)
- spcebar 6y agoDon't know if it's nationwide, but at CVSs in Boston you can now use alipay.
- _1tan 6y agoAliPay can be used at the German drug store chain "DM" as well.
- QuietZelda 6y agoYou can use Alipay Tour Pass in China
- arusahni 6y agoI always wondered what org was behind the Ant Design React UI framework.
- cfontes 6y agoI also did, Ant Design is pretty good, I was sure it was some major company but that explains it...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- radihuq 6y agoMy first thought as well
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoI started with it in a new project once, but wasn't allowed to use it because of its Chinese origins, :/
- bbaumgar 6y agoWe are in the process of transitioning off it because of those same Chinese origins... probably justified but it's a painful process.
- sojournerc 6y agoI'm curious why you feel it's justified? I use it and haven't had any reason to be suspicious. It's open source and MIT licensed.
- nogabebop23 6y agoAlso really good, even if you need to get past the default stylings and behaviours. They have continually moved upstream beyond basic components into more enterprise patterns that are as useful IMO if you need specialization but great for getting started (ex: login workflows, portals)
- abc-xyz 6y agoWhy? Do you really want to share such sensitive info with the CCP?
- eunos 6y agoI am already growing bored and numb with all of this CCP hysteria anyway.
- lanternfish 6y agoWithout expressing support or condemnation for the CCP, I think being 'bored and numb' is a poor justification for disregarding concerns about potential bad actors. Sets bad precedent for engaging with sources who can intentionally pollute information streams.
- FooBarWidget 6y agoThe problem isn't so much overlooking CCP's problems, it's that the CCP boogeyman becomes an excuse for overreactions. Everything remotely related to Chinese becomes under attack "because CCP bad". Imagine a world in which every article that mentions any American company, receives a torrent of comments calling for the banning of that company, because "US government bad". And then, when one says that the company in question isn't a state company, commenters simply say "but they pay US taxes/have to follow US national security law/are monitored by PRISM, so they're effectively a mouthpiece of the US govt". If the above scenario happens, I can very well imagine many Americans getting pissed off at the unfair treatment, and becoming more nationalist in response. Actually, that is already happening in China: since COVID-19 many Chinese are absolutely dismayed at the international response, which they view as unfair and biased. Nationalism and support for the CCP is at an all-time high in China. To people who hate CCP it sure feels good to criticize and oppose everything remotely CCP-related (even private Chinese companies) at every turn. But my point is: you can't solve actual problems with this sort of attitude. Do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? I think more dialog and cooperation with China will do more to improve China, than by attacking CCP and Chinese companies at every turn, because the latter alienates Chinese people (already happening) and paradoxically make them more supportive of the CCP. If China and the west come together, the whole world wins. If they attack each other, everybody loses.
- wombatmobile 6y agoIn this interview with Stephen A. Orlins, Kai-Fu Lee explains the value proposition of Alipay https://www.ncuscr.org/media/podcast/uschinainsights/kai-fu-lee-future-ai-united-states-china https://www.ncuscr.org/media/podcast/uschinainsights/kai-fu-... Orlins: You focus a lot on, kind of Alipay or WeChat Pay. How does that change the landscape for AI in China versus the United States, where we still are heavily reliant on a credit card system that seems quite old and outdated when you're in China? Lee: It's a very unique opportunity for China to leapfrog. The U.S. had the world's most leading transaction tool, which was the credit card, but it became outdated. It charges too much, it's inconvenient, it's only customer to merchant. In China, with WeChat and Alipay, anybody can pay anybody. We can do micro payments and there are no fees, almost no fees, so the 2% extra charge is almost like a tax on the American economy charged by the credit cards. But with respect to AI, now everybody, including WeChat and Alibaba, but also, if you build an app, you know who your customers are, and what they paid and why. And if you're a retail shop and people scanned you, you know who pays you and why. There are even beggars in the street holding up a sign, "Scan me and give me money," and they know who paid them and why. So I think this is creating a huge amount of data that will help AI.
- gruez 6y ago>It charges too much, [...] so the 2% extra charge is almost like a tax on the American economy charged by the credit cards. they seem to have forgotten about europe where they have the same credit card networks, but capped interchange fees to around 0.3%. >[...] So I think this is creating a huge amount of data that will help AI. This already happens to an extent in the US. Your credit card transactions are sold to data brokers for analytics/market research purposes.
- wombatmobile 6y ago> This already happens to an extent in the US. Your credit card transactions are sold to data brokers for analytics/market research purposes. To an extent. US cc transaction data are batched. Alipay provides more agile context by integrating location data real time.
- sjg007 6y agoIt does raise the question of why don’t we have QR payments. And why not have a line of credit behind it.
- gruez 6y agoBecause compared to swipe/NFC payments, it's a downgrade or a sidegrade. Advantages: * cheap, no need for a dedicated terminal Disadvantages: * requires internet connection for both parties (credit cards only require the merchant to be connected) * cellphone is a single failure point (eg. losing it, battery running out, dropping it), whereas you can carry spare credit cards * scanning is worse ux than tapping
- _-___________-_ 6y ago> requires internet connection for both parties (credit cards only require the merchant to be connected) In China it's quite common for the merchant to have a static printed-out QR code for receiving payment. This requires a connection only for the payer (and merchants will often have WiFi available, so you're likely to be able to connect one way or another). These merchants tend to just trust you when you pay and then show them the "paid" screen on your phone. You could fake it, but I guess in general people don't, and the "paid" screen does include the merchant's chosen profile image, so you would have to have done your homework to fake it. > scanning is worse ux than tapping This is really true. When I lived in Shanghai it was pretty common to be stuck behind someone at the metro turnstile who was trying to use the stupid QR scanning thing to get in. Contactless is much smoother, but at one time QR code was the only way to use your mobile device to get into Shanghai's metro. Now Apple Pay supports the Shanghai transit card.
- gruez 6y ago>In China it's quite common for the merchant to have a static printed-out QR code for receiving payment "for the same amount of security" should be implied. If we're talking about what's possible, credit cards can also be processed fully offline by using an imprinter (eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Credit_card_imprinter.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Credit_card_imprinter.JPG).
- wcerfgba 6y agoA reminder that Jack Ma is a supporter of the 996 working schedule, which is hazardous to one's wellbeing and illegal under PRC labour laws. https://996.icu/#/en_US https://996.icu/#/en_US https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU
- cmdshiftf4 6y agoAre people being forced to work for him?
- lakecresva 6y agoHe's a person with influence who is endorsing a labor practice. I'm pretty sure no one was ever forced to work for Karl Marx or Adam Smith, yet somehow their opinions on labor managed to affect peoples' working conditions.
- booleandilemma 6y agoHave you not seen how companies (especially tech companies) bandwagon on each other? The company I work for follows several practices Google and Spotify follow, even though they don't make sense for us.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago>The company I work for follows several practices Google and Spotify follow, even though they don't make sense for us. So your company is cargo culting "thought leadership" from Google, you can see it's a poor fit and you're still there because...? Let me guess, the money? As with the 996 stuff, if you're not happy to work in those conditions then don't.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoAre children and poor people forced to work in sweatshops?
- valuearb 6y ago
- kleton 6y agoThey really ripped off the Alibaba shareholders when they just split it off in 2011 with no compensation.
- gruez 6y agoSo who were the owners after the 2011 split? Did alibaba essentially sell off one of their divisions to jack ma for $0?
- ryanar 6y agoIf you want to learn more about Jack Ma's story I highly recommend Alibaba: The House That Jack Ma Built [1]. Chinese tech is this separate bubble that has grown independently from the rest of the world and it is fascinating to me. [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25817524-alibaba https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25817524-alibaba
- eunos 6y agoAn excellent exposition describing what ant group is. https://emerging.substack.com/p/chasing-ant https://emerging.substack.com/p/chasing-ant
- bofadeez 6y agoThis is not an IPO by a private company. This a wholly owned subsidiary of a government, just like Saudi Aramco. Jack Ma is a high ranking CCP member with government money, not a private businessman: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
- peacefulhat 6y agoYou've fallen for propaganda
- bofadeez 6y agoYou've fallen for propaganda. Read and learn: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
- peacefulhat 6y agoOk, I read it. At no point does it say Alibaba is owned by the Chinese government. Jack Ma's not even the CEO anymore so dunno what you think this proves.
- bofadeez 6y agoOkay, I guess you need a reading list to understand the implications: 1. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese-firms-work-for-the-party/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/07/we-cant-tell-if-chinese... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business... 3. https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20-deals-show-how-china-gobbling-us-assets https://justthenews.com/world/asia/made-china-owned-china-20... 4. https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-the-role-of-chinese-communist-party-committees/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/12/politics-in-the-boardroom-th... This took me 1 minute to assemble. There's a lot more...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- lemax 6y agoThe Economist recently had some great analysis on Ant Group's evolution and how it does internal credit scoring https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/10/10/what-ant-groups-ipo-says-about-the-future-of-finance https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/10/10/what-ant-group...
- SpaceRaccoon 6y agoAny non-paywalled links?
- partingshots 6y agoIt was very frustrating to see, as a former Alibaba shareholder, Ant Financial get spun off with zero compensation or new share distribution. My primary reason for buying Alibaba in the first place was for Alipay. It was a good learning experience though to be honest. Since then, I stay away from Chinese stocks on principle. I was lucky enough to be able to sell off my shares without losing anything this time, but who knows what could have happened.
- blahblahblogger 6y agoDoes the US have protections that prohibit companies from doing that? Or is it just that there's more faith in our legal system if a company does what isn't in the shareholders' best interest?
- rokobobo 6y agoI believe that the managers of the company that sells/spins off a subsidiary have a fiduciary duty to get the best price for shareholders in such a transaction. This is even more so the case when a major stakeholder gets to benefit from such a transaction.
- bassman9000 6y agoMany US investors are going to receive a rude awakening a few years from now, if not before. https://www.uscc.gov/research/chinese-companies-listed-major-us-stock-exchanges https://www.uscc.gov/research/chinese-companies-listed-major... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/nasdaq-to-tighten-listing-rules-restricting-chinese-ipos-sources-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/nasdaq-to-tighten-listing-ru... And sadly, as usual, fund managers will face zero consequences.
- batt4good 6y agoI wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole. This reeks of fake inflated / manipulated Chinese currency / gov't backed debt.