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Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole
- lawn 6y agoApart from the amazingly crazy story, this is very well written and worth a read even if the title doesn't interest you. And the paint images go so well with the text.
- petercooper 6y agoQuite the rabbit hole and definitely worth the read :-) This seems a good place to bring up an odd experience of mine. I've had carpal tunnel for decades but no longer get many flare ups. After trying numerous keyboards, the solution turned out to be using Apple's Magic Keyboard and whatever their huge trackpad is called. The key for me seems to be low key travel, a smallish keyboard (to avoid any stretching), and avoiding mice (the only flare ups I get anymore are from prolonged use of the family PC). This seems to run counter to most experiences, though!
- bobbylarrybobby 6y agoMagic Trackpad, of course :)
- swader999 6y agoMy solution was a Theragun, trackball mouse and a Truly Ergonomic keyboard.
- petercooper 6y agoI keep getting advertised Theraguns and similar things almost non-stop on Instagram. Are they worth the expense? And how/where are you using it to improve carpal tunnel?
- nix23 6y agoNo do some boulders, best training for your hole body and you don't even feel it (mainly because you don't want to fall down), BUT start slow and easy for the first 3 month, your ligaments need much MUCH longer to grow strong than your muscles.
- bosie 6y agoSilly question but how do you start bouldering with CTS? I tried it (and weight training) but grabing any heavy weight seems very painful
- megameter 6y ago1. Supplementing helped me with grip. Specifically D3 and magnesium supplements. 2. Practice hanging from a pull-up bar. Calisthenics routines often include "passive and active hangs" and doing these for long holds is a good grip trainer.
- nix23 6y agoNot a silly question, you just make routes where your body-weight is 80% on your feet (but that's always the goal), warmup your hands before 5min under really warm water. If it still hurts too much stabilize your hands looks like that: https://frictionlabs.com/blog/taping-fingers-in-rock-climbing https://frictionlabs.com/blog/taping-fingers-in-rock-climbin... But ask your doctor how to stabilize your hand optimally. And again start slow no weight on the hands, it's about moving them, not overload them (at least in the first 3 month..or more) Oh and Gyroscopes are extremely good for warmup and for breaks at work. And no painkillers when you do climbing/boulders.
- bosie 6y agoThis is the first time i have heard about stabilising the hands. I can't make the connection, what would that do if you have CTS? if the muscle starts swelling it will compress the nerve and the nerve is already compressed due to the bone structure. Gyroscopes are just straight up torture devices for me, as in, 10 seconds and i am out ;)
- perardi 6y agoI get some wild forearm pain if I work too long on a laptop (coffee shop, on couch with dog), or if I hold my phone too long (Pokémon Go, there are literally dozens of us.) In particular, it really seems to be in my brachioradialis muscles. I tried out one of those generic massage guns at a friend’s place. I had scoffed at the infinite variations I saw advertised on Instagram, but I tried it on those small muscles and: wow. It helps me a lot. I can really massage out my forearms. There’s no way it's strong enough to work on knots in big muscles like quads, but for those little extensor muscles? Seems to help me. I’ve also been helped by what are called, broadly, “tennis elbow compression pads”. (Linked to Amazon below—not recommending this particular brand, it’s just what I have.). I wear theses at night if I’m having pain, and it seems to help. Now, the actual solution to my problem boils down to “use a full keyboard and mouse, and don’t bend your arms like a t-rex”, but, well, Pokémon. (https://www.amazon.com/Tomight-Elbow-Brace-Tennis-Compression/dp/B087B6YR9L https://www.amazon.com/Tomight-Elbow-Brace-Tennis-Compressio...)
- swader999 6y agoI think you would get a lot of benefit out of learning more about trigger points not only in your arms but all over your upper body that can help with carpal tunnel. The Theragun can do my quads well if I hit the trigger zones. I used to be a national ranked mogul skier so these aren't ordinary quads lol.
- swader999 6y agoYeah they are! With a bit of research you can find cheaper knock offs too. For carpal tunnel I hit the forearm, bicep, chest, neck. The scalenes in the neck seem to offer the most reward. A book on trigger points and a theragun are very good imo.
- questionfor 6y agoIs Theragun noticeably better than, say a plastic roller?
- swader999 6y agoYes. It's so much faster and easier to target. I've foam rolled for years and have every gizmo massage tool out there. I'd say foam rolling, active pressure release, deep tissue massage, dry needling, trigger point release, acupuncture, acupuncture with tens are all very similar. But percussive therapy with a theragun is easier and something you can do on yourself in ten minutes.
- nextos 6y agoSame thing here. I've tried tons of different keyboards. For me, the thing that makes the most difference is a low travel switch and a compact layout. Ideally, ANSI. I've found Apple Magic Keyboard to be good enough. Regarding mice, I also like their Magic Trackpad or a Logitech Trackman. It's a shame the latter is not as smooth as the 1990s model. Everything works great under Linux. Except for Logitech having issues with power saving via USB. But that's a given in all their devices. They should get their stuff together. It can be solved with a udev rule, though.
- kostarelo 6y agoThat's super interesting, thanks for sharing. Is the magic keyboard and trackpad considered to be ergonomic? I wonder what's the difference then in split keyboards and such.
- jen729w 6y agoTangential: I find using an actual (Mac) laptop, with the trackpad in front of the keyboard, to be very ergonomic. This is on a desk with a screen attached, so I’m not staring down at the laptop screen. Rather than the hand sweeping all the way over to the right to reach the mouse, it just twists a little towards the trackpad. The palms never really leave their rests. I don’t use it like this a lot, but when I do I enjoy it.
- jacobajit 6y agoI've always wished for an external trackpad and keyboard combo in this layout, basically a Macbook without the screen to use with your monitor setup. Reaching to the side for the trackpad frequently seems much slower and less ergonomic. Plus the fixed relative layout of the trackpad and keys helps orient myself.
- vladvasiliu 6y ago> I've always wished for an external trackpad and keyboard combo in this layout, basically a Macbook without the screen I'm pretty sure I saw something like that from lenovo. I can't find it anymore, all I got is this: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KBD-BO-TrackPoint-KBD-US-English/p/4Y40X49493 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboa...
- dodobirdlord 6y agoIn an interesting demonstration of how all ergonomics is personal, my use of a Mac laptop and the repeated wrist rotation from the trackpad to they keyboard and back led to RSI. That said, I love the Mac trackpad and it has great ergonomic potential, I just personally have to use it with a split keyboard with the halves on either side of the laptop. That way the motion of moving from trackpad to keyboard and back is a bend at the elbow, while the wrist stays straight.
- jsmith12673 6y agoSimilar experience here. The only setups I can use for >1month are the Kinesis Advantage and MX Ergo, or the butterfly keyboard and trackpad. I've chocked it up to the super low travel keys and not having to put any force on the trackpad. Besides that I've tried the MS Sculpt keyboards plus all sorts of mechanical and chiclet keyboards. None of them have been comfortable
- lowbloodsugar 6y agoI have two: one for each hand. I (used to) have to use my laptop a lot (meetings, traveling), so it didn't work for me to have a different keyboard at my desk. Then when I got stuck at home, I dug out my old kinesis but it was just too much effort to press those keys, and the cursor keys were just too far away. I could feel the muscles in my arms complaining. But the pronation and ulnar deviation was a pain, so I bought another one, so now I can angle them perfectly for each hand. If you want to try it you'll need karibiner [1] so that the cmd keys work across keyboards. I'm still using the magic mouse because I found click-drag with the trackpad to be shitty. Is there a trick to that? [1] https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org
- vladvasiliu 6y ago> I'm still using the magic mouse because I found click-drag with the trackpad to be shitty. Is there a trick to that? Not sure how the magic mouse works, but there's "drag hold" on the trackpad. You "double tap and hold". Tap once, and on the second tap you don't lift your finger off the trackpad, but start moving it around. Conveniently located outside the trackpad settings, in Settings -> Accessibility -> Pointer control -> Trackpad options -> Enable dragging. https://imgur.com/a/oSrPyDB https://imgur.com/a/oSrPyDB You may have to activate tapping (as opposed to pressing the trackpad). "Without drag lock" actually does lock, but only for a short time. "With" locks until you click again. "Three finger" is new to me, never tried it. edit: screenshot
- mattgibson 6y agoThree finger drag on the trackpad was a game changer for me. I was getting RSI before and that eliminated it entirely.
- gimboland 6y agoIf you're using karabiner, you might want to use goku to configure it: much nicer: https://github.com/yqrashawn/GokuRakuJoudo https://github.com/yqrashawn/GokuRakuJoudo
- m463 6y agoFor me what fixed it was a left-handed mouse. before that I overused my right hand - both for the mouse and things like the arrow keys, enter and backspace.
- jszymborski 6y agoI've been enjoying my ergodox, but have yet to venture out into the layout customization side of things. The default layout (mostly QWERTY, but split ortholinear) took a week or so to learn and has been totally fine. My only problem with it is that so many of the modifiers depend on my pinkies, which are my weakest finger. Luckily, the default layout maps control as "hold Z key" which means my pinky doesn't need to travel as much, but it still leaves me with a sore pinky. I'm thinking of mapping a key like "O" that gets hit with a stronger finger like my ring, but inertia is great when changing a habit you've developed daily. One thing I'll say about the ergodox is that you really notice it's value when you go back to your e.g. laptop's keyboard. Whenever I use my T495, I immediately notice that, while my typing speed is higher, it's putting a far greater strain on my hands and wrists (and back!)
- positr0n 6y agoI've experimented with putting some or all of my modifier keys under non-pinky keys like O on my ergodox. My problem with that is that it forces me to drastically slow down my typing. Otherwise typing a word like "word" will register as 'w ctrl-r d'. I have not found a timeout value that will always register "word" when I'm typing at 110wpm and also Ctrl-r when I'm just lazily hitting that single hotkey :/ It's either too fast or too slow for some use cases. I have read some posts from people that use layouts like that and it either seems they already type pretty slowly or they have RSI problems and it is worth it to them to slow down.
- jszymborski 6y agoYah, my typing speed is far slower on my ergodox just from lack of practice I suppose (maybe 1 year?), but that doesn't stop me from the occasional "zv" instead of "ctrl+v". I can't remember a time where I've held z too long accidentally, but yes, z is less commonly used than e.g. O.
- jacobkania 6y agoI had this problem too, so I don’t have any of my normal letter keys as dual-function. The pointer-finger vertical-middle keys that they default to Hyper and Meh, I changed those to both be Cmd on MacOS (would make them Ctrl on Linux). I set the bottom row and pinky keys to also have lots of modifiers & layer toggles, and my pinky-fingers can hit those modifiers/toggles when needed. Then moved basically all symbols to another layer on easy-to-reach keys. This means I can type regular words as fast as I want, and can easily reach any symbol when I need it. Only downside is that it takes some adjusting and practice, but I personally think it was worthwhile
- hexbinencoded 6y agoI laugh when I read this because the DataHand was so much better but inefficiently manufactured and badly-priced. Five motions per finger well, macros, and mouse control 20-something years ago.
- bootlooped 6y agoHave you used one? I have always wondered how people find the side to side finger motions to be, in terms of strain and ergonomics. It feels like an unnatural movement. To be clear I've never used one myself.
- DavidVoid 6y agoIt's not a DataHand, but here's someone typing on a modern DIY version of one [1]. The side motions don't look too unnatural to me. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMhOIgrdeE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMhOIgrdeE0
- JesusFreke 6y agoYeah, most of the heavily used keys are mapped to north, south and down. There are a few letters mapped to side keys, but they're mostly on the first two fingers. The first finger can do either side direction fairly easily, while the middle finger can do the inward (toward the thumb) direction a bit more easily than the outer direction.
- jodrellblank 6y agoI used to own one and have probably written about it before; the side to side is not very natural, but no big problem because the fingertip is down in a well with buttons wrapped close around it, so it’s a small movement, and the way the key mechanism works is backwards to normal - instead of pushing all the way until a contact clicks, the keys are magnetically latched at rest and you push them away from that state, meaning it registers at the start of moving not the end so again small movements and you don’t push hard into a resistive surface with the side of your finger to make sure it registers, you flick a gently sprung thing. Look at the keyboard layout too, shown at the top[1] and the pinkies don’t have sideways movement for writing English letters, and the other fingers only go one way, the easier way, for letters. I didn’t get used to it to use it exclusively; it’s too tuned for prose, extracting your hand carefully to use a mouse, not having an easy way to type anything one handed while holding a mouse or phone (e.g. hold a device type the serial number), awkward arrow keys and less convenient numbers, see “NAS” (Number And Symbol) mode on the diagram entered by right-thumb-down. It’s been long enough now that I’d like to play with one again, for a bit of novelty. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/DataHand_overhead_view.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/DataHand...
- sdenton4 6y ago...And you will never be able to use a random keyboard it in the world again...
- auslegung 6y agoThat isn’t my experience. I have an ErgoDox EZ, and while it’s married to QWERTY, I’ve customized everything else and have 4 layers I regularly use. I also use my MacBook’s keyboard when not at my desk and I never have a problem context switching. I also recently got a windows laptop and put pop_os on it, and after a few days was able to context switch between OSes with different keyboard and different shortcuts without a problem. It takes time, and maybe diligent practice, and maybe my brain is a little weird, but I suspect most people can do this if they’re diligent.
- lostapathy 6y agoWhat are your 4 layers? I only really live in 2
- auslegung 6y agoQWERTY, keyboard shortcuts for window management via Rectangle, numbers and symbols, mouse control. Media keys are on one of those layers but that knowledge resides in my fingers not my head, and I’m not at my keyboard. I want to try a 40-key board so I’m trying to make more use of the layers.
- whoisburbansky 6y agoThis simply isn't true; it's funny how often this criticism pops up in response to unorthodox layouts. Learning a different layout has, in my experience, and in that of most folks I've talked to that have done it, been more like learning to do everyday tasks with your non-dominant hand than some irreversible magical transformation that completely robs you of that ability to use a "normal" keyboard.
- sdenton4 6y ago
- dkersten 6y agoI use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I've also found these beneficial: https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ https://www.mycarpaltunnel.com/ I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros "so you don't store passwords in them".. ehh, that's a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)
- bootlooped 6y agoSeems like the limit is 32 characters. That probably covers 99% of passwords ever made. Even if you use a password manager you can still benefit from storing your master password as a macro, that allows you to have a very long one (at least up to 32 characters) without suffering the negative effects of that (it being a pain in the ass to type all the time). It doesn't seem unsafe to me, although at first glance it's reasonable to be suspicious. Macro memory is lost if the keyboard is unplugged for a short amount of time, like if somebody swiped it off your desk. Nobody will know you store your password in your keyboard unless you tell them. It may be difficult to even figure out what key combinations trigger the macro; you can make it very complicated with multiple layers. As far as I know, there is no way to pull the layout back off the Ergodox and view it in the configuration tool, so you couldn't just easily look up what the macro combo is. You use 2 factor on everything important anyway right? If somebody had access to your keyboard to do this, it would be much easier to just plug a keylogger in between the keyboard and PC. EDIT: it seems likely I misinterpreted what they meant.
- StevenWaterman 6y agoI think the parent is talking about the limit in Oryx, their online configuration tool. In Oryx, they limit macros to 4 characters. It's not because storing passwords on the keyboard is unsafe, it's because storing passwords in Oryx is unsafe. They're stored in plaintext and publicly visible. In response to the parent, you can configure longer macros using QMK directly.
- bigjimmyk3 6y agoI also fell down the rabbit hole earlier this year, and eventually I learned that keyboard layouts are like the pirate code: they're more like guidelines than rules, really. I don't know why I felt weird about modifying my personal layouts, but once I got past that I had a much better experience. I don't think it has negatively affected my ability to type on "normal" keyboard in any material way.
- larzang 6y agoI would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they're perfection, and I'd hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it's been well over a decade with the 4000 too. But nope, it's dead, and the replacement isn't nearly as good.
- theptip 6y agoThat keyboard with actually good switches would have been perfect. The squishy rubber comes on the ergo 4000 are really hard to come backs to after using a good keyboard. But the layout is excellent.
- mrsharpoblunto 6y agoI used the 4000 for a number of years, but found that it was causing problems in my right shoulder. The reason is the inclusion of a full numpad makes the keyboard so wide that your mouse hand has to sit really far to your right, causing your shoulder to be in a position of constant rotation and eventual strain. I eventually took a hacksaw to it to remove the numpad, which improved things - but it was the main reason I preferred the successor (sculpt) as the numpad is a separate detachable piece. These days I'm a split keyboard ergodox weirdo because it lets me put a trackpad in between the keyboard segments which means my shoulders can stay in a neutral position the whole time
- BeetleB 6y agoHave you ever tried switching to using your left hand for the mouse. It is generally recommended for ergonomic reasons even if you don't have a keyboard issue. It'll seem weird to your brain at first, but I got used to it pretty quickly, as did everyone I know who has tried. When I was in grad school (before I had any ergonomic pains), I had my mouse on the left side at work, and the right side at home - so I was using both configurations daily.
- ansible 6y agoI switched to mousing lefty a long time ago. If you want to get up to speed, just play a few games of solitaire or something like that. Unfortunately, gaming while mousing lefty is often inconvenient. Many games are set up assuming your left hand is on the keyboard. In most cases you can re-bind the keys though.
- meken 6y agoI, myself, went down a similar rabbit hole years ago. I could probably write a similarly long blog post, detailing all the twists and turns, highs and lows of that period. Reading this was kinda triggering some repressed PTSD from it lol. The highs and lows, thinking that you've found the perfect layout, only to encounter an edge case which there's no solution for and giving up. The continual wishful thinking that "one more modification" and THEN I would have the perfect layout, without ever knowing if that's true. And then when do you stop? I couldn't find a point where I would ever stop, it was maddening. I used a Japanese keyboard for a while [1] to leverage the extra keys on either side of space bar, but then I realized that I probably wouldn't be able to use a laptop normally ever again, which was enough to snap me back to QWERTY. In the end, I did end up going back to QWERTY, but with some modifications, which I really think improve the problems I have with the layout (sore pinkies) [2], most commonly from jupyter notebooks (hitting shift-enter). It also solves emacs pinky. [1] - https://www.amazon.com/SolidTek-Keyboard-Languages-JAPANESE-Bilingual/dp/B004RPQ8KU https://www.amazon.com/SolidTek-Keyboard-Languages-JAPANESE-... [2] - https://github.com/ebanner/dotfiles#keyboard-layout https://github.com/ebanner/dotfiles#keyboard-layout
- coryrc 6y agoHow do you type 2?
- meken 6y agoAh, good question. Alt + 2 gets you 2. If you press 2 by itself, then you get tab. A similar thing with 3. If you press 3 and release it, you get 3. If you hold 3 and press another key k, then you get Ctrl+k. This works by using the "to_if_alone" feature in karabiner. e.g. https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/docs/json/typical-complex-modifications-examples/#post-escape-if-left_control-is-pressed-alone https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/docs/json/typical-comple...
- Timpy 6y agoI experimented with putting replacing some of the number row, I replaced 9 with backspace. It never occurred to me to put the ctrl/alt/shift family up there though, that's really genius.
- wildpeaks 6y agoConsidering using multiple keyboards is what triggered this rabbit hole, note that the Logitech Craft can be used with 3 computers at the same time (there are keys to switch which one you're targeting), it's very convenient and the keyboard is silent. https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/craft.920-008484.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/craft.920-...
- schwartzworld 6y agoyou can also get a kvm switcher for a few bucks
- Aeolun 6y agoI need one that actually consistently works with my 4k screen (at 60hz)
- jedberg 6y agoWhen I worked in IT, I had a love/hate relationship with ergo keyboards. The worst thing in the world is when you sit down at someone's computer to fix their "quick problem" and it takes you forever because you have to figure out their weird keyboard first, or run back to the supply cabinet to get a regular keyboard and hook that up so you can type. But I myself have been using the Microsoft ergo keyboard for 20+ years. Any time I start a new job, the very first thing I do is request an ergo keyboard.
- maxekman 6y agoI love my Kinesis Advantage 2 and would never describe it as old fashioned! If anything it has a look that follows it’s function and happens to not look like the sleekest thing. But one should not look at the keyboard anyway. :P
- ZeroGravitas 6y agoI discovered revently that the Kinesis was featured in the background of the film Men in Black, as a futuristic keyboard. The prop department had painted it black and the wave of consumer demand was the reason for them introducing a black version, like the one I have.
- StevenWaterman 6y agoI think calling it old fashioned is just me post-rationalizing it. I was just jealous I couldn't get my hands on one at the time!
- jonstewart 6y agoOnce you go Kinesis, you don’t go back.
- avitous 6y agoI used Kinesis keyboards for years, and preferred them over all others I tried... but for the price, the build quality was just atrocious. Went through several of them. Have they improved at all? For $300+ I expect something that feels rock solid and lasts for years, not the plasticky stuff that eventually broke (out of warranty, of course).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- narrationbox 6y agoYour audio narration widget that plays in sync with the paragraph is really cool. I am going to borrow the idea and add it to Narration Box :)
- IshKebab 6y agoThe problem with learning an alternative keyboard layout is that it makes you suck at QWERTY. I didn't realise how much I type on other people's keyboard until I tried to learn Dvorak.
- cweagans 6y agoWhile you're learning, you'll probably suck at both layouts. Once you've mastered the new layout, switching is really not so bad (at least for me).
- kylepdm 6y agoI used to have consistent but relatively mild wrist pain from using a standard keyboard all day, but I was able to alleviate that once I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard which I made. For anyone who also wants to get their feet wet in the world of custom keyboards it certainly isn't as daunting as you might think. You don't have to necessarily go ortholinear, and you certainly don't have to stray from QWERTY. In fact, just learning to properly touch type and making sure the "right" fingers are hitting the right keys goes a long way with a split keyboard. I found a lot of my own wrist pain was from the unnatural position that your arms and wrists are in to support a non split keyboard + the unnecessary hand/wrist movement to hit keys with the "wrong" fingers. An ortholinear (or at least column linear) keyboard can go a long way in teaching you where your fingers are supposed to go as long as you are willing to spend a weekend or two learning how to type again. If you are thinking of diving into making your own, I would recommend the following vendors for kits: https://keyhive.xyz/shop https://keyhive.xyz/shop https://keeb.io/ https://keeb.io/ https://www.littlekeyboards.com/ https://www.littlekeyboards.com/
- shaicoleman 6y agoWhen people learn Colemak, sometimes they unconsciously try to "ground" their fingers on the home position, and that makes typing very strainful indeed when typing on the middle columns. When typing on the middle column, make sure that your fingers float freely, and the middle and ring fingers should move along with your index finger, e.g. when pressing the 'H' key, the middle finger should be hovering approximately between the 'J' and 'K' QWERTY position.
- bsimpson 6y agoThe author's narration is delightful. Really nice to hear the voice of the author, the meta commentary on his own writing, and the proud glee he takes in captioning his doodles.
- StevenWaterman 6y agoI'm really glad you enjoyed it! I've never done that before, but it just felt like the perfect opportunity.
- bsimpson 6y ago> Defeated, I just accepted there was no way to do it. I would just have to live with it like this forever. I accepted that, and I could move on. I did not believe you. > I did what anyone else would do in my position. I wrote a driver. Seriously, this is fantastic.
- vbernat 6y agoI have also enjoyed it. This is really good for accessibility. I suppose you use the "timeupdate" event and "scrollIntoView()" to sync text and audio but I would be interested to read more on how you have achieved this.
- StevenWaterman 6y agoYep, you're exactly right. The SL blog uses Jekyll, so I'm limited to just using a markdown document with some ugly hacks. Essentially, there's a div before each paragraph specifying the timestamp in its id - all done manually. I use `querySelectorAll` to get a list of those divs, extract the timestamps from the IDs, and store them in an array. In the audio's `timeUpdate`, I check which paragraph we're on, and if it has changed then scroll to the next sibling of the timestamp div. No magic bullet sadly!
- spicybright 6y agoI very much enjoyed it, keep doing this style!
- SimonPStevens 6y agoI have a ergodox, and while I love it for writing prose in English, I struggle with it a bit for coding. It feels like it needs an extra column or two on the right hand side to have enough space for the symbols and special keys (arrows, home/end/pgup/pgdown, etc). I've tried all kinds of different placements or multi layer layouts to try and make everything comfortable to reach but whatever I try I can't quite get it right. I'm going to try a separate numpad next I think so I can map some things on to that and have it just to the right to gain the extra key space.
- samatman 6y agoI stopped using the configuration tool awhile back, so I can't share a convenient graphic, but here's my layout: https://github.com/mnemnion/ergodox/blob/master/readme.md https://github.com/mnemnion/ergodox/blob/master/readme.md The keymap is at least laid out visually in a way that corresponds to where the keys are. Much of this would be useless if you don't use a Mac, but perhaps the layout of glyph keys and navigation keys will prove useful to you.
- SimonPStevens 6y agoThanks. I'll definitely take a look to see if you've done anything differently to me.
- top_kekeroni_m8 6y agoHere is mine, might help you out a bit: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/QaRmD/latest/0 https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/QaRmD/la... I use it on Windows for .NET development mostly - I also tried to optimize it for the Slovenian language (to support čšžđć).
- bsimpson 6y agoIt's amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities. Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that would make learning/teaching and sharing really difficult.
- tmoravec 6y agoIt's a surprisingly complex problem. As you point out, more personalised UI, buttons, etc. can be more ergonomic and presumably productive. But then the problem with learning, teaching, and sharing arises. I also see another problem: lock-in and loss of productivity in other environments. For this reason I prefer to stick to everything as vanilla as possible: so that I can use another computer or keyboard and it "just works" because that's what I'm used to anyway.
- Baeocystin 6y agoRight there with you. The ability to use any system you happen to be in front of without issue is a huge boon in and of itself. I have friends who spend hours customizing every little keybind, using uncommon peripherals, etc. Does it make them more productive? I honestly have my doubts. The number of times I've had to wait during a group project because a software update broke their keybinds, they're at another desk and are now slow because they don't have the muscle memory for 'standard' layouts, etc is not even close to zero. Even on their own systems, they spend significant time every week tweaking things. For many, I think it is a form of bikeshedding as much as anything.
- samatman 6y agoBig fan of the first, I make small tweaks to my keyboard layout in QMK and they've really added up to a fluid experience. Strong disagree on the second: Photoshop should absolutely not move controls around on some kind of magic guesswork basis. That would destroy visual/muscle memory and undermine the users sense of control and mastery. Bad news. It would be pretty great if programs with tool palettes came with a configurator so that the user could deliberately move things around, remove and add tools, and otherwise customize. As long as it was saved in a plain-text config that they could move around, this would be a win, just like it is in text editors.
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- jgilias 6y agoI have a kinesis freestyle. Really like how I can move the parts around depending on what feels more comfortable at the moment. However, I haven't gone down the layout rabbit hole yet. Are dvorak, colemak, etc also useful when writing in languages other than English? EDIT: ok, found the answer to my question - depends on the language, but generally not so much. So, a question to multilingual layout geeks - do you learn the best layout for each language? Or do you just optimize the most used one and stick to whatever is the default for other languages?
- sixstringtheory 6y agoAlso a happy freestyle user here, I have the version for mac. Anyone tried both the freestyle and advantage that could give some points of comparison? Is the advantage 3x as good, same as the price ratio?
- samatman 6y agoWhen I purchased my Ergodox, I also discovered that I cross-type the letter Y, and my muscle memory would lead me to hit a layer key instead, in the default layout, which would cause a bunch of the letter keys to do different things. My solution was to reprogram the layer key to be a null key that doesn't do anything, so instead of "Y equals your keyboard is now broken" it was "Y means nothing happens". I kept it that way for a couple weeks, until my nervous system was rewired, and turned it back into a layer key. These days, the remaining problem is that I've moved a few 'glyph' keys, so when I'm on the laptop my fingers go to the wrong place when I try to type e.g. "-". It's like I have two modes with substantial overlap, and sometimes it takes awhile to switch to the laptop mode. Not the end of the world, and more than made up for by the convenience and ergonomics of the Ergodox. Edit to add: from this and other reports, it's clear that for some people, the ortholinear layout requires substantial adjustment. I wasn't one of those people, it was a rapid accommodation and I don't consciously notice switching between ortholinear and staggered. It would be nice if there were a way for people to guess which category they're in, before shelling out $300 and change on a keyboard!
- mdpye 6y agoI found the exact opposite for ortholinears. It took zero time to adjust, and within a day I was actually touchtyping using the properly assigned keys for every letter, something I'd tried many times over the years, but always found super awkward on a normal keyboard. I realised that I'd always subconsciously known there was something wrong with the weird fingers-curling-under-each-other you're supposed to do and it felt like a weight had been lifted! Of course, that was for prose. It took a month or so to arrive at a satisfactory layout for all the symbols, having suddenly dropped to 48 keys. Though thumbs are so useful! Using them only for spaces is criminal. Still use a laptop on the couch at home for casual stuff. Still can't type properly on it. Not much point to this comment, I guess, other than that I highly recommend anyone to borrow someone's plank/preonic/ergodox for a day or two if they'll let you, and bang out some prose. You might be very pleasantly surprised!
- jen729w 6y agoYeah I got the Ergodox and just couldn’t get used to it. I think the ortholinear was a big part of that. Especially painful as I’m in Australia. I think shipped it was about AU$500. Very not cheap indeed. I sold it on eBay and didn’t take too much of a haircut. My other concern with the mega-custom layout is the fact that I often use ‘normal’ keyboards. I didn’t want to get used to some special situation and then not be able to use it. (Same reason I’m not putting time in to Colemak.) Now I just use the Microsoft thing. It does the job.
- jerezzprime 6y agoWhy is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.
- HeadsUpHigh 6y agoCheck the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. It has a trackball module.
- kzemek 6y agoIt will have a trackball module (if everything goes to plan). The modules are still undergoing the manufacture process, the last newsletter said they are delayed and expected "closer to end of November".
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- questionfor 6y agoI am seriously considering putting together a tiny trackpad to have it located someplace between the two halves of my Sinc. It does seem there are some tiny trackpads for sale, but in the end they all seem a bit too big. I really just want to be able to scroll up / down left right and drag things. Maybe trackpoint could help idk
- nine_k 6y agoI had the same thought. I also love the trackpoint on Lenovo (previously IBM) laptops. But once I tries a split keyboard with a layout that really allows you to keep your hands in one position, I realized that moving my hand to a trackpoint or a trackball, and moving it to a mouse is an equal amount of disruption. At that, a mouse is a much more precise device. You can also check the "J joystick" idea implemented on some really old laptops, where a regular key is turned into a joystick.
- 6y ago
- questionfor 6y agoGuys if you are in the market for split keyboards and can operate a soldering iron, the endgame is Quefrency 2 (60%, you actually don’t need more) or Sinc (TKL I think - without the numpad but with macro row) from keeb.io with Zilent switches. It’s programmable through QMK (so you can use layers). You can print out decent cases for it (although I prefer aluminum plates) and the switch quality you get with Zilents is far beyond anything offered by pre-built vendors. It’s about 1-2 hours to put together, you only need to solder switches which is super easy and kinda fun. Also you can customize the layout, meaning the size of keys used (1u backspace etc etc). Once you put it together any of these keyboards work OOB now programming is required and there is even a really nice new app (Via) that allows to do all the mapping (even lighting if that’s your thing) via GUI. They use standard layout so you don’t have to relearn (I have Ergodox and I used it once - whatever the benefit it may offer over split keyboard is negligible compared to the downside of having to adjust to new keyboard and then possibly mess up decades worth of typing habits, so using regular keyboard which happens often still would suddenly feel awkward. I have both (Quefrency 1 not 2 though) and not affiliated with Keeb people at all, just a happy customer. Also I run both with blank keycaps so I guess I am a touch typist? Other keyboard I have are Ergodox, Kinesis Edge and Microsoft Sculpt. Quefrency / Sinc are simply leagues ahead of any of those, I can’t imagine using anything else. I saw the split Ultimate Hacking keyboard and it looks nice and idea to have a custom thumb cluster or trackpoint it enticing, but the bottom row on Quefrency / Sinc covers maybe 80% of possible use cases I could come up with for thumb cluster and QMK layers + Karabiner Elements or similar easily handles the rest of the 20%. Losing the Zilent switches in favor of Kalih that the UHK uses is not worth any of the added customization options. AMA if you’re curious, again, this may read like an ad, but i am in no way affiliated EDIT: also I did go down the split keyboard path because I started to get serious elbow pain (tennis elbow) which was in part related to climbing but got really aggravated by the regular keyboard. Then I started to feel numbness in my pinkies and that was actually scary. It is beyond me how people who spend 6-8 hours typing can use regular keyboards after they turn 30
- mdpye 6y agoI'll raise you the houndstooth, which ironically, being 40% ortho linear doesn't have jagged edges in spite of the name. Sadly it doesn't look like they're currently available, but it was pretty good value too. +100 on the zilents. Best things ever.
- nine_k 6y agoMy 2¢. I used a traditional keyboard, and could not stop peeking at it. I of course remember where each key is, but aligning my hands to it was periodically required, so that I could keep hitting the right keys. Then I used a traditional-layout split keyboard. It was easier on my arms, but not much on my hands, and I still needed to peek at the keyboard(s) to readjust my fingers. The fact that traditional keyboards shift rows of keys half-width side to side every row, like bricks in a wall, was an obvious obstacle. Now I got an Ergodox EZ. Its keys are in straight columns, and this helps me a lot. Many keys went to the thumb cluster, lowering the load on pinkies. Then modifier keys went to the home row, and stuff like Ctrl+shift, next to the home row, which helps immensely when using Emacs or VSCode. My problem with Ergodox is that its pinky columns are uncomfortably positioned for my hand, I still have to move the hand a lot to hit P or Q. Also, a number of keys are hard to reach without moving the hand a lot, which sort of makes little sense when you have layers. Mechanical switches are also a tough issue. Stuff like MX blue or Gateton green give good tactile feedback, but are loud and take effort to press. MX browns are not quiet enough to count as quiet, and give too little feedback in exchange. Gateron clears are my current choice: not ideal, but at least quiet and soft. So my next idea is a Kyria with Kailh choc blue (25g) switches. In particular, it should make typing a P easy, and there are no extra keys to force your hand off the home row position. BTW I wish "normal" keyboards, especially in laptops, took some ideas from the QMK firmware, or adopted it as is. Particularly home row modifiers and the idea of layers are very useful. Layers are currently implemented in a crude way with Fn keys on many laptop keyboards, so customers already are acquainted with the idea.
- kryptn 6y ago> BTW I wish "normal" keyboards, especially in laptops, took some ideas from the QMK firmware, or adopted it as is. I completely agree! I believe that System76 laptops allow complete customization of the firmware, including the keyboard. https://github.com/system76/firmware-open https://github.com/system76/firmware-open
- fdsfawfds 6y agoSilent reds are good. Tactile feedback is overrated, silent low force push is great.
- samtuke 6y agoGreat article. No mention there, or in these comments, about using split boards vertically- I adopted this two years ago and won't go back. It's trivial to strap a split board to a box of approximately shoulder width. The result suits me best - forearms and hands stay vertical in the handshake position. I don't understand why more people don't try it.
- Symbiote 6y agoI'm keeping a gallery (just for a quick overview) of ergonomic keyboards. It might be useful for others interested in this thread. There's a lot of options, from something you can order from a large retailer, to a kit to solder yourself, to just plans to download. https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
- rbanffy 6y agoI was surprised not to see the Tron ones, but then I assumed nobody is making them. Such a shame.
- cjbprime 6y agoThanks for the gallery! I'm surprised there aren't more integrated pointing devices (like TrackPoints).
- gumby 6y agoIs there any science on what ergonomic risks exist and what kinds of mediations improve things? I have only seen articles sponsored via various keyboard companies.
- cinntaile 6y agoI feel like most ergonomic keyboards work better for regular typing. A lot of the ergonomic (split) keyboards still force your hands in awkward positions if you're coding because of all the weird parentheses and symbols you don't normally use. What I haven't tried yet are ortholinear keyboards or tiny keyboards like the Atreus. Judging by the layout I'm guessing ortholinear keyboards would still force your hands into awkward positions at the (pinky) edges, so avoiding that by using a tiny keyboard might be an option?
- Ataraxy 6y agoOn the very small boards you use chording to access different layers for symbols and numbers. Like for me I hold down my right thumb key (which is also space if i were to just tap it) and that changes the layer allowing me type symbols like (){}[]<>. In practice it's as if you were using shift to capitalize something and it becomes second nature very quickly. Getting used to chording and layers is what allows you to eventually use less and less keys like the split 36 key board I use these days: https://kagizaraya.booth.pm/items/1235510 https://kagizaraya.booth.pm/items/1235510
- pdfttgz 6y agoI also slipped into the rabbit hole. Result: https://github.com/herpiko/unk https://github.com/herpiko/unk
- fdsfawfds 6y agoThe biggest problem I find with traditional mechanical keyboards are they are too tall, you need wrist support ideally. Newer low profile keys are coming out which are much more comfortable, (I just can't afford yet).
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoI have that exact trackball mouse and haven't had a single issue with Manjaro 20+. The nice thing about the usage of it with linux is it natively knows LMB & RMB is MMB. In windows you need logitechs software to get it to work. I've since become an ambidextrous mouse user. Rollerball for left, traditional for right.
- sethammons 6y agoI use the CloudNine split ergo mechanical keyboard. It is nearly identical to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I lost no typing speed, unlike when I tried the ergodox ez.
- autocorr 6y agoThanks for the great write-up! It's interesting to see how much room there is for personalizing and optimization once you lift the lid on the first change. I started the journey with an ErgoDox and now am typing this on a fully custom hand-wired beast. The great thing about the ErgoDox though is that (a) you can just buy it and (b) it runs QMK and can be programmed through their simple web interface. For anyone reading this and seeing all the craziness in the post and the linked comments, it's entirely do-able to learn multiple layouts/keyboards and keep them mentally separate. The key thing is to use them both regularly. It doesn't have to be an either-or proposition between "use the standard keyboard of the Earth" and "use this hyper-personalized one". You can in fact use both as long as you don't go cold-turkey and stop using a standard keyboard for six months.
- galkk 6y agoI own ergodox and it has the same issue as the most of the "enthusiast" keyboards (dactyl/manuform, ergodox, plank) - it hates non-english layouts. Typing in Russian is a struggle. The common answer is to remap the keys to double function etc - but this is a bad workaround. I want something with more columns. I get the "limited finger movement" idea, but sometimes it is necessary. I don't want to do crazy customizations of layout, I just want split (ortholinear, not required to solder) keyboard to replace my Microsoft Sculpt
- BossingAround 6y agooh? They added full support to non-english characters some time ago. Maybe take a look in the flashing website tool? For me, it took a laptop with a full non-english keyboard that enabled me to program it to whatever I wanted to (e.g. "this key is _press laptop localized key here_ that non-english char") but once programmed, it works as expected. Granted, my non-english characters are still in latin characters though.
- expjpi 6y agoI just want to say that I loved the audio, thanks Scott
- selud 6y agoDoes the article say which website or tool was used to relearn to type, did I miss it? I've got this journey (hopefully not all of it) ahead of me and am looking for ways to aid the transition.
- StevenWaterman 6y agoI didn't mention in the article, but used https://www.keybr.com/ https://www.keybr.com/ Good luck!
- m463 6y agoI guess I didn't fully understand how deep rabbit holes can go.
- castillar76 6y agoSo here's my thing, and I'm wondering if this is true for anyone else. I have a huge keyboard switch tester, and I've heard excellent things about the Ergodox and Moonlander keyboards. But that's a lot of money to invest in an unknown, particularly an unknown where I don't know if the keyboard layout will work and then I'd like the ability to try out some different switches to find something that will really work. Seems like there's a market here (not huge, but maybe growing?) for either a rent-with-option-to-own thing, or an exchange system wherein people can trade around to try them out.
- BrandoElFollito 6y agoI work in IT for 25+ years and had all kinds of keyboards. Some were fine, other less fine but all of them did the work. I think that these (btw interesing) articles on keyboards are particularly relevant to pepole who constantly type (or hobbyists). I work with a keyboard all day long and also afterward for fun but I type only a fraction of the time. I also look at the keyboard when doing so, so I am slow. But I do not need to be faster (it would be great, though) and my hands are not in the same position. I am not sure a special keyboard would help pepole in my case.
- yc-kraln 6y agoI am a fairly competent (110+ wpm) typist, across a few different layouts (mostly qwerty/qwertz). I don't do this kind of deep customization for the same reason I don't use many plugins in vim or a browser: It would render me completely useless on 99.999999999% of the other terminals out there. I have a few different laptops, a desktop, and even with total control of those devices, I still end up on other people's hardware. If you have medical reasons, I mean, I guess it's better than nothing, but this reads to me like the computing equivalent of moving into the woods and becoming a hermit.