33 ms·

My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

• ForHackernews 6y ago
  Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21788650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21788650
• programmarchy 6y ago
  This is a pretty good argument in favor of technical challenge styled interviews i.e. what can you do instead of what have you done.
  • staticassertion 6y ago
    Clearly a controversial point, but I actually sort of agree. I hate technical challenge interviews because I think they measure the wrong thing, but then we have a problem of only wanting to hire senior people with big portfolios, because someone else has essentially done the vetting - this makes it harder and harder for those without experience, for whatever reason, to get a job. Clearly we need some way to evaluate entry level employees who wouldn't have had time to build a portfolio, it just remains an open question as to what an effective method would be.
  • SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    While that works for entry level jobs where direct algorithmic knowledge is the most important, it's hard to test if someone can lead a team of 6 to finish a quarter of a million dollar project on time and on schedule through a 2 hour whiteboard conversation.
    • nicoburns 6y ago
      Algorithmic tests aren't great for any level. You want to ask someone to solve practical technical tasks that are relevant to the job they are applying for. For an entry level job this may be a programming task (build this one screen). For a more senior position you'd want to ask about things like architecture and practical trade-offs. You could use a whiteboard for this: I don't think it's whiteboards people object to. It's the irrelevant algorithmic questions.
      • SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
        Very true. I didn't use the right term there for what an entry level dev does. But I still think that, even if a senior tech can do a decent job elucidating a architecture, that's not proof they can lead, which is similarly important, and the only way to prove that you have the ability is to look at past accomplishments.
        • nicoburns 6y ago
          > the only way to prove that you have the ability is to look at past accomplishments I'd argue that past accomplishments don't prove anything either. Or rather, it's impossible to tell whether they were actually responsible for those accomplishments. It's not just architecture you want to ask about. It's the practicalities of choosing libraries, making engineering trade-offs, running a team (if that's part of the job they're applying for). The trick is to ask them questions that they'd only know the answer to if they've actually been there and done that ("What want wrong" and "what problems did you face" are good ones). And to follow up with asking them why they'd make that choice.
• _jal 6y ago
  That's awesome, and depressing, when you think of how rare that is. But kudos to Jessica for giving a shit and the person in question for keeping at it.
  • hluska 6y ago
    You definitely made me think with this comment. I came here ready to say “this is amazing” but read your comment and it dawned on me how incredibly depressing it is when you think how rare this sort of thing is. Great comment and thanks for sharing that perspective.
  • Igelau 6y ago
    It's a common thing that "uplifting news" has an undercurrent of something systemically wrong. More: https://fair.org/home/media-just-cant-stop-presenting-horrifying-stories-as-uplifting-perseverance-porn/ https://fair.org/home/media-just-cant-stop-presenting-horrif...
    • duderific 6y ago
      Thank you for sharing that link, I never looked at these stories through the lense of "what's actually wrong with this situation." I learned something today.
• vincentmarle 6y ago
  The way that ex-felons are treated in society is despicable, no wonder there's a 55% recidivism rate if you get blocked at every attempt to becoming a productive member of society. The Last Mile seems like a great program to share our tech skills and knowledge with people who really need a leg up. I will be signing up as a volunteer today.
  • JeremyBanks 6y ago
    Felon disenfranchisement is also disgustingly anti-democratic and further segregates them from society at large. If you have enough felons for them to affect the outcome, your problem isn't that they have the right to vote, it's that you're arresting too many people.
    • edbob 6y ago
      In Texas, voting rights are restored automatically upon completion of the sentence. It seems very fair to me. I don't consider it a hardship. I actually feel like it's a benefit to not have to worry about voting in this election.
    • hinkley 6y ago
      As someone with a civics background once explained to me, what you don't want are laws that inspire contempt. Contempt for one law tends to blur into contempt for The Law, and then you've got anarchy.
  • throwaway894345 6y ago
    I would be very interested in understanding how much of that recidivism rate is attributable to "ex-felon discrimination" or whatever we might call it as opposed to other variables.
    • lostlogin 6y ago
      It gets very philosophical fast. Prison is for punishment, rehabilitation, protection of society and is there to serve as a deterrent. Over emphasis on the need to punish seems to cause a lot of long term harm.
• ciarannolan 6y ago
  tldr: "I reached out to a friend who is Head of Engineering at a ~500 person fintech company."
  • frakt0x90 6y ago
    I mean yeah in this particular case, but the broader point still stands that prison needs to be less of a career death sentence and employers should open up to the idea of hiring former prisoners. And that there needs to be substantial reform for the prison system and that you should join a support group similar to hers to help these people out.
    • ciarannolan 6y ago
      That's true. I either misread the headline or it was changed from "_How_ my friend got a job at...". Probably the former.
  • content_sesh 6y ago
    Yes, this bolsters the author's point that it is essential to create more opportunities because what she had to do to help her friend was only possible because of her extraordinary connections. The author herself points out that most parolees will not be released to the Bay Area with a tech exec friend willing to spend many hours to stick their neck out for them.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • batt4good 6y ago
    Comes to show, you still need connections to make it. Connections are everything, skill and intellect is largely secondary when removed from how well you network and gain friends in the industry or otherwise.
  • rc-1140 6y ago
    I get why this is being downvoted but it's still a very good point: an ex-con needed a previously-established connection with someone who just so happens to be CTO of a reasonably successful startup who knows another engineering lead at a fintech company who took mercy on the ex-con's predicament to get a job. It's brazen, I admit, but the ex-con part can be substituted for other more fortunate people, like those with little experience, non-traditional backgrounds, those who never got advanced degrees (undergraduates mostly). The oh-so-different software industry isn't that different from any other industry these days in that it's more about who you know rather than what you know to find employment, but the added bonus for software types is that often enough it's both! Maybe I'll look back at this comment and feel it's overly pessimistic, but I hope that's because things changed for the better.
• caseyscottmckay 6y ago
  We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.
  • nickff 6y ago
    People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?
    • clevergadget 6y ago
      pretty sure the people with criminal records have already been punished?
      • UnpossibleJim 6y ago
        I believe what the person above was referring to is the dichotomy of the people cheering for prisoners getting jobs while cancelling people for a fairly innocuous tweet, however tasteless. While the prisoners may have paid for their crime, there isn't always as clear a path out of the purgatory that is becoming the social pariah of upsetting "the mob" in the Twitterverse (though, past a few professions, I'm unsure how much sway they hold).
        • cycloptic 6y ago
          I wouldn't say that's a dichotomy. Internet popularity was fleeting before twitter and it probably still will be long afterwards. In general, the path out of unpopularity is to do research before you post something. If you don't want to do it yourself, you can hire a PR firm.
    • staticassertion 6y ago
      I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.
• jnwatson 6y ago
  Unfortunately, the worst offender of this is the federal government. Essentially any federal position, regardless of actual job position, requires a background check.
  • gtsteve 6y ago
    Most government jobs in the UK require this too. However, they don't require a spotless record but there would be some types of offences (serious fraud, affiliation with organised crime, etc) that would make it impossible. It's assessed based on the job, the offence, and how long ago it was. Does a background check in the US imply that they'd never consider anyone with any blemish on their record whatsoever? Surely it just means they have to make an informed decision.
    • ciarannolan 6y ago
      > Does a background check in the US imply that they'd never consider anyone with any blemish on their record whatsoever? No, but federal jobs usually get dozens or hundreds of applicants. Removing felons is usually one of the first filters they use to narrow the field.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • bityard 6y ago
    Which is a good thing. A background check looks for past, present, and future issues that could indicate a pattern of unethical or illegal behavior, or conflicts of interest. Every employee, regardless of actual job position, is given some level of inherent trust over the country's money, data, or physical assets. A background check is a minimal defense against misplacing that trust. (Insert snide remark about elected/appointed politicians here.)
• onion2k 6y ago
  70millionjobs is a YC (S17) company that helps people with criminal records get jobs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911467
  • ano88888 6y ago
    It is great that programming is helping people with criminal record. On the other hand, if you are a programmer , unless you are one of top ones in the world, anyone can compete with you. Someone can switch jobs and take a few months of code bootcamp and become your competitor. Your years of experience only make you less valuable. Anyone can spend a few months learning to code and replace you. The demand for programmers is strong right now but the supply is increasing so fast as even imamates can do it. It is sad on that perspective.
    • mikkelam 6y ago
      this user wrote this comment twice. Perhaps a bot?
• gotoeleven 6y ago
  How long until programming javascript becomes the new making license plates?
  • farseer 6y ago
    I rather think incarcerated people will write excellent JavaScript.
    • x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      At least there is no way of making the ecosystem any worse than it already is.
• thelean12 6y ago
  There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of their record? Edit: Just want to remind people, 13 years could very well mean that they murdered someone. Context around the charge is key, and no one seems to be acknowledging that.
  • clevergadget 6y ago
    If you think the people around you haven't done terrible things over the last 13 years they haven't been caught for I've got some bad news for you about humanity
    • thelean12 6y ago
      13 years for a "serious, violent crime" could very well be referring to second degree murder in many states. No, I don't think my coworkers or friends have committed second degree murder. Context is of course key, but a blanket statement of "hiring someone who spent 13 years in prison for a serious, violent crime is a good thing" seems wild to me, which is the vibe on this thread.
      • Apocryphon 6y ago
        So it becomes either a law enforcement issue- does our system properly rehabilitate offenders? or a psychological issue- is someone who commits a violent crime inevitably going to repeat it?- or maybe a moral philosophy question- are people inherently evil and dangerous? Because you’re asking a safety/comfort question, but it’s dependent on the answers to the above.
        • thelean12 6y ago
          I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.
• haunter 6y ago
  >13 years for a serious, violent crime That can be a manslaughter or second/first degree murder in some states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_punishments_for_murder_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_punishments_for_murder...
  • eplanit 6y ago
    I wonder how the victim(s) are doing now -- does he/she/they have great tech. jobs now?
  • tnorthcutt 6y ago
    What's your point? Do you feel that after serving a sentence for such a crime, the perpetrator should not have a chance at a "normal" life? Should they live the rest of their days continually punished by society for what they did? If so, should we instead increase the length of the sentence for such a crime? To how long?
    • sevenf0ur 6y ago
      We had someone who worked at my company that was convicted for second degree manslaughter for bludgeoning someone to death with a hammer. He was always chill around me but I think companies should have the right to decide whether or not they want to hire people with a record like that.
      • tnorthcutt 6y ago
        companies should have the right to decide whether or not they want to hire people with a record like that They do.
      • nexuist 6y ago
        How do you get manslaughter for that? You can't unintentionally bludgeon someone to death, can you? I will however say that there is opportunity for multiple interpretations with the little information provided; for example I think bludgeoning someone to death is perfectly acceptable if that person is trying to harm you or your family and a hammer is the nearest available weapon. Your coworker could have been in a similar situation in which self defense was warranted, and that may be why he did not get a murder charge instead. This sort of nuance is why this issue matters a lot; you could do the right thing and still end up with a charge that severely impacts your ability to get a job, even though you're not actually some kind of violent murderer.
• firmnoodle 6y ago
  That's hot.
• jerry1979 6y ago
  Glad this person had a computer program in their prison. I think most prisons have basically no real computer access except for a horrible "email" service called corrlinks. Very embarrassing for the US.
  • rwmurrayVT 6y ago
    Pay by the minute while a significant number can barely operate a keyboard...
• boogies 6y ago
  Unrolled: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1311349445787672578.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1311349445787672578.html
• Chernobog 6y ago
  I was convicted for drugs and firearms in Norway. The only time it has ever come up during my many years as a programmer, was when a consulting company I worked for had the police IT service as a candidate for my next project. Since it was for the police, a background check would be required. I politely told my department head that I would not pass that, and a short summary of my case. At that time I had worked for about 2 years and got a kind "we would never have guessed" and "you will get another project then". As a side note: In our country, an employer needs a legitimate reason to do a background check, and they won't see crimes that are not relevant, or for some crimes - too long ago.
  • AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    A part of that may be a legal requirement for the employers to provide a "safe working environment".
  • koiz 6y ago
    In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.
    • djsumdog 6y ago
      Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, but due to freedom of speech laws/1st amendment, typically background check companies are free to hold on to older records if they were at one time public. I know in the EU, many countries have right to be forgotten laws, but the EFF has historically stood against them due to the fact they've often been used by wealthy individuals to hide their crimes.
      • Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
        In the UK, it's changed recently because of a Supreme Court ruling, but AFAIK there are various levels of check depending on the specific job. In most cases a conviction for which the person was sentenced to less than 4 years in prison will eventually become 'spent' and won't show up on background checks apart from for specific jobs (such as working with children). Even for those jobs, some minor convictions are 'filtered' and removed from the record.
• anon55555 6y ago
  Hey, posting anonymously here since this hits close to home; as I'm also a felon. I learned to program _after_ all my legal troubles started, and my sentence wasn't _nearly_ as long as this (6 months, drug crime). I 100% honestly feel like tech saved my life. My first job immediately gave me hope that I'm not defined by my past. Went from working in a factory making $7/hr (about 10 yrs ago), to now grossing well over 6 figures (currently making west coast type wages). Run a small consultancy now and can even subcontract out work to a few friends. I know there's alot of talk on how to make the industry more inclusive (which I agree we need to do better at). But I can't think of any industry as meritocratic as tech.
  • weka 6y ago
    That is great to hear. I am happy for you. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of tech consulting do you do?
    • anon55555 6y ago
      Mostly web dev currently but I've worked in a few different domains.
      • weka 6y ago
        Dang. That sounds great. I hope to one day start my own consulting firm.
  • jph 6y ago
    Congratulations! I'm with a YC company that helps formerly-incarcerated people with jobs, and would love to talk with you about what you're doing. Like you, we believe that coding and tech can be a potential way to help rentry. Work email is joel@70millionjobs.com.
    • comprev 6y ago
      70M jobs was just the company I was thinking of. Fantastic positive outlook on life and gives people a second chance.
• paxys 6y ago
  I encourage everyone to check out https://thelastmile.org/ https://thelastmile.org/
• cletus 6y ago
  The American cultural penchant for cruelty and predilection for fear is something I find really off-putting about living here (as an expat). And make no mistake, the ubiquity of "are you a convicted felon?" on every application form is cruelty. Bear in mind that can (depending on the state) include, for example, possession of even small amounts of cannabis. Mark Wahlberg is a convicted felon for what seems to be a pretty vicious race-based assault 30 years ago. Even as someone who is famous and extremely rich this actually causes him a lot of problems, so much so that for awhile he petitioned the Massachusetts governor for a pardon. Personally I was (and am) against a pardon for him. There was enough of a backlash that the request was dropped. The problem with him getting a pardon is that's (yet another) exemption for the rich and famous. Kind of like how only people with 100K Twitter followers can be customer support on anything these days. What about all those people who are convicted felons for minor drug offenses including drugs that can now be legal for recreational use? They don't have the wealth and fame to bypass this scarlet letter. Even worse, this can be triggered by more cruel measures like three-strikes laws that disempower judges from making informed decisions. The problem here is the permanent scarlet letter and there shouldn't be exemptions for wealth, fame or power. The level of incarceration in the United States should be a huge source of shame. It's an institutional failure and yet more cruelty, especially given the prevalence of prison rape. It's good this woman learned a new skill and (even better) is allowed to use it. It's just sad that this is such an exception it's newsworthy.
• guenthert 6y ago
  This is the more noteworthy as it is currently not exactly easy to find a job as software engineer, even if you have one or two decades of experience in the field and no criminal record.
• batt4good 6y ago
  This is an interesting story, but if I had the choice to hire a felon (yes, once you commit a felony, even after serving time you are still a felon) or a scrappy coding bootcamp grad I'd take the bootcamp grad every time. Especially if I'm a founder with significant skin in the game, why would I risk my money, time and hard work on someone with a recorded record of making poor choices when there are hoards of others who haven't broken the law?
  • nexuist 6y ago
    > why would I risk my money, time and hard work on someone with a recorded record of making poor choices when there are hoards of others who haven't broken the law? This assumes that your scrappy bootcamp grad hasn't broken the law. In fact the more likely scenario is that they have broken the law multiple times, they just were never caught and charged for it. Unless we are suddenly going to believe that young adults and teenagers don't have an affinity for recreational marijuana or underage drinking or doing any of the various stupid things young people do. Your mentality applies to yourself as well: why would any investor or employee risk their money, time, and hard work on someone with no proven track record, when they could throw it at the hoards of other CEOs who have demonstrated the ability to profit? You wouldn't want someone to look over you just because you never got the chance to demonstrate your potential; it would be equally unfair to look over someone else who served their time and is now looking for opportunities to demonstrate themselves. > (yes, once you commit a felony, even after serving time you are still a felon) Then what is the point of imprisoning felons? Why don't we just kill them all? If there is no way to recover from being a felon, why let them live or let them out? Sounds harsh, of course. The answer should be that once you have gone to prison and gotten out, your crime is behind you, and unless you are actively committing crimes again you should be judged equally with someone with no record.
    • batt4good 6y ago
      Even if you've "reformed your past ways of crime" after serving jail time and "learned your lessons": non-felon > felon Especially in terms of potential risks to my staff or property. Basically, would you hire a babysitter with a criminal record or one without a criminal record and good references? Maybe my employees break the law when they're not at work, but that's none of my business. If one of my employees is indicted or cited for rioting / DUI, welp I'll fire them on the spot. Also, re "all crimes are behind you once you leave prison" - how would you explain repeat offenders? At this point I'm trusting my business against statistics of a felon committing a crime again lmao.
• hash872 6y ago
  Using the logic of some people in this thread, the day after a convinced child molester gets out of prison, he should be able to start working at a day care. Why not? He served his time- you don't want to punish him indefinitely, right? Also a convicted fraudster can start working again immediately in a bank, or as a financial advisor for your parents- after all, he served his time, right? And a convicted Mafioso or gang member can become a cop. Etc. etc. I agree society should help reintegrate prisoners, and find them work. That work might just be as in construction or retail sadly. Unfortunately, if you did something absolutely horrific, the consequences of that may last your entire life. As an employer I am not 'society'- I'm not obligated to hire a violent felon because society in general owes him or her something. As an employer I'm free to make my own decisions, and I personally wouldn't hire someone who did 13 years in prison, likely for homicide. If you disagree, that's fine- it's a free country, you can hire them or even let them into your home, up to you. If you really disagree, tell me how about how daycares should hire pedophiles after they get out of prison. They did their time, right?
  • karpierz 6y ago
    I don't think that someone who commits homicide should be allowed into a job that enables the employee to be violent, like policing. The same way I don't think a pedophile should work at a day care, and someone convicted of insider trading shouldn't be working at an investment firm. But that doesn't mean they should be excluded from professions that don't put them in an escalated position to recommit.
  • intortus 6y ago
    Much of crime is driven by poverty. If the consequence of poverty-driven crime is more poverty, then this negative feedback loop turns society into an incarceral state. This is the US in a nutshell.
    • hash872 6y ago
      Being a pedophile is driven by poverty? Anyways, most social science research has not found a poverty-crime correlation. Would you mind answering some of my specific examples, rather than trafficking in generalities? Should a daycare hire a convicted pedophile? Should a bank hire a fraudster? Law enforcement, an ex-gang member?
• dj_mc_merlin 6y ago
  In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my criminal record, nor could they legally. An employer can only ask questions that are reasonably necessary for them to make a fair consideration about me as an applicant. You could ask an accountant about embezzlement convictions, a pharmacist about drug convictions etc., but that is not applicable to software engineers. This is the only sane way to do things.
  • nexuist 6y ago
    What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell. Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?
    • jedimastert 6y ago
      I could assume hacking, fraud, corporate espionage, etc. along with info relevant to the software (i.e. if you make banking software I'd assume fiscal crime would be at least somewhat relevant)
      • monksy 6y ago
        Hacking would probably be a plus for a software enginer. They know how to debug systems. Espionage, theft, and violent crimes... That's a different situation (I don't want someone coming after me after I liter their PR with comments)
        • deleted 6y ago
          [deleted]
        • 6y ago
• kazinator 6y ago
  I'm sorry; if I'm aware of a violent crime history, I'm tossing that application into the recycle bin. Do you want to be exposing co-workers to someone like that? Isn't an organization exposing themselves to liability? Suppose you knowingly hire someone with a violent history and they cause a violent incident.
• atraktor 6y ago
  I guarantee that if you give every prisoner or delinquent to do what he likes or a normal job, he will be like the rest of us, a completely normal person. Bad government and lack of smart strategy and vision makes criminals, nothing more.
  • dahfizz 6y ago
    > I guarantee that if you give every prisoner or delinquent to do what he likes or a normal job, he will be like the rest of us, a completely normal person. Bad government and lack of smart strategy and vision makes criminals, nothing more. That's a very strong statement. Certainly there are a lot of people that fall into gangs, etc because they have no other alternatives. But rapists don't rape because their day job is boring. Serial killers aren't in it for the money, either. Don't be naive.
    • atraktor 6y ago
      Of course, I think every disease should be treated at the root. Maybe the father of the serial killer had a boring or inhumane job or they didn’t have enough money to send him to fancy college and projected all his frustrations on the children and the family and that child has the potential to become very dangerous to society. I agree not everyone would recover but a good percentage.
  • hnracer 6y ago
    In some cases yes, in many cases no. As someone who grew up with a small handful of delinquents (in and out of prison etc), they are not the types to be able to hold a regular job like a normal person. Often there is a personality disorder (borderline disorder, antisocial disorder, often a few disorders together) which doesn't magically go away with maturity and opportunity. If they can find a way to treat the underlying disorder (many don't) then maybe...
• alexashka 6y ago
  > The way that ex-felons are treated in society is despicable, no wonder there's a 55% recidivism rate if you get blocked at every attempt to becoming a productive member of society. What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'? It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. There'll always be unlucky exceptions and if your goal is to ease the suffering of the unlucky - I'd suggest volunteering at a children's hospital.
  • padseeker 6y ago
    how many ex-felons do you know?
  • laughinghan 6y ago
    It's apparent that you've found in your life that it's been "not that hard" to not break the law. Have you considered that not every person in the world has had the exact same life experiences as you?
  • mrlala 6y ago
    >It's not that hard to be a member of free society instead of prison society - don't break the law, repeatedly. Wow. It's THAT SIMPLE! Would you like to report this to the media or should I? Most "criminals" are people who are from severely disadvantaged socioeconomic and/or family backgrounds. Gee, what a coincidence. You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? Shocking I tell you. >What makes you think they want to be a 'productive member of society'? What a pompous ass statement. What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity?
    • alexashka 6y ago
      > You mean the people who grew up without an opportunity in the world resort to crime to try to stay afloat? What opportunities do people who end up criminals lack that immigrants or refugees have? Let's narrow it down to countries without slavery in their past to simplify matters. > What makes you think they DO NOT want to be a productive member of society given the proper opportunity? I didn't make the claim that they do or do not. If you claim there is a teapot in outer space, the onus is you to prove it, not on me to disprove that there isn't.
• kabdib 6y ago
  I believe that PCI compliance in the US requires that background checks be run on employees with access to the protected environment. I also believe that that is the only requirement: Run a background check. They don't say you have to do anything with it, or even read the thing when it comes back. A old cow-orker of mine had a bullshit felony for "computer hacking" from quite a while ago. Trust was never an issue with this person.
• Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  A relevant need gap was posted on my problem validation platform recently for "Offline programming course for prisoners"[1]. The OP was trying to find materials to teach programming to a friend in prison and couldn't find satisfactory results. [1]https://needgap.com/problems/152-offline-programming-course-for-prisoners-education-prison https://needgap.com/problems/152-offline-programming-course-...
• miguelmota 6y ago
  In the US even if you get _accused_ of a felony and aren't guilty, it will still haunt you for life because it's in your permanent record forever and if employers had to choose between two equal candidates they'll most likely choose the one with the "clean" record.
• b20000 6y ago
  "everyone who gets out needs a job" - I totally agree. So why a job in tech, or specifically, a software engineering job, and not a job in a different field?
  • b20000 6y ago
    I guess this is a controversial question.
• tinyhouse 6y ago
  In the US every job I had required a criminal background check. Also when I volunteered to coach my kids team and also for other volunteering I did in their school. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. For example, you don't want let a sex offender coach a kids team. And I don't care if that person already paid their dues. But you cannot ruin the life of someone who has a minor offense from years ago. People should be able to rehabilitate and improve their life. I don't know what employers do when a background check is not clean. If they actually consider the severity of it or immediately reject the candidate.
  • caymanjim 6y ago
    It's impossible to know for sure what employers actually check for when you're hired, but anecdotally I've only been given a background check consent form at three of about a dozen jobs over the past three decades, and two of those also required DoD security clearances. I suspect larger employers do it as a matter of course, and smaller ones don't.
    • Meph504 6y ago
      How many of your applications had a box requesting if you were ever convicted in those 30 years? Until fairly recently that was standard practice on any application. With the ban the box gaining traction, most companies now just farm it out, you don't have the check the box, they will do the background check. And here is the kicker, you don't have to give your consent in most cases as they are having a third party do the check on publicly available information. companies like goodhire, and many like it make the whole process cheap and easy.
• hnracer 6y ago
  This is a tough problem because I believe many (not all) criminals can't be fully rehabilitated, in the sense that they can be made into normal, functioning adults. Often there is an underlying personality disorder which combines with personal circumstance that leads to the crime. The most common ones I've seen from criminals are borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. "Though psychopaths make up roughly 1% of the general male adult population, they make up between 15% and 25% of the males incarcerated in North American prison systems" - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059069 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059069 These disorders don't go away on their own, and these disorders can be difficult to pick up in an interview, often because the person is motivated to thoroughly hide it and present the best possible image to the interviewer. Put simply, if you are hiring a criminal that just came out of prison, you are far, far, far more likely to be hiring a psychopath or someone with a severe personality disorder than you would be if you hired from the non-criminal population.
• tmsh 6y ago
  On this subject, I was blown away by this a week ago: https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/ https://mkorostoff.github.io/incarceration-in-real-numbers/
  • jlokier 6y ago
    Great site. Wow: - "The United States holds more people in jails and prisons than any other country by far, both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of population." The numbers are stunning. Around a quarter of all Americans have a criminal record. - "Almost no one gets a trial" - "The blue icons are the portion of incarcerated people who got trials, around 2%" My mind boggles at this. Conviction is without trial in 98% of cases? People avoid trial when they don't think they'll get a fair one or they can't afford a decent lawyer? No wonder it's a hotbed of racism. No, wait, I was assuming conviction: - "Unconvicted Americans are the 4th largest incarcerated population in the world" Now my mind boggles even more. There are more unconvicted Americans incarcerated than convicted people incarcerated in almost all other countries. - "What if you've spent your whole life believing that you live in the freest country on earth, when the reality is precisely the opposite?" Good question...
    • lopmotr 6y ago
      Careful with the trick statistics. If you're ranking the size of groups, the result heavily depends on how you define the groups. That "4th largest" makes no sense because the 3 above it aren't broken down the same way and should really be split into 5 groups for consistency. Then there's the fact that the USA is the 3rd largest country by population so it should be weighted by population. It's a complete fail of a statistic obviously designed to shock without informing.
      • jlokier 6y ago
        > Then there's the fact that the USA is the 3rd largest country by population so it should be weighted by population Most of the statistics I cited are already weighted by population; they are per-capita and percentages: "as a percentage of the population"; "a quarter of all Americans"; "almost no one gets a trial"; "2%". Those population-weighted values are astonishing. I agree the 4th largest thing is not weighted, but the astonishing part of that is that USA unconvicted incarcerations rank significantly at all, when compared with convicted in other countries. USA population size is not sufficient to explain this. It's the opposite of what I'd hope and expect, for a country where people talk of "land of the free" and "rule of law".
• ransford 6y ago
  If you're in Seattle, consider supporting Unloop, https://www.un-loop.org/ https://www.un-loop.org/, with donations of time or money. [EDIT to add detail:] They help people re-entering society establish tech skills and find work. I've been volunteering with Unloop for a few months, as both a guest speaker and 1:1 coach. I feel myself becoming less cynical about tech with every interaction.
• AliCollins 6y ago
  Having read this today, went home and watched https://skidrowmarathon.com/ https://skidrowmarathon.com/ tonight. Each of these are a way of showing the power of giving people dignity.
• NewOrderNow 6y ago
  Meanwhile, I can't get a job because I don't have the typical cult mentality
• ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  I don't have a record, but, through the extracurricular volunteer work I've done for the last 40 years, I've had a lot of interaction with people who have spent some quality time, getting free room and board; from Minimum Security Federal pens, to supermax and 23-hour solitary. One thing that I can tell you, is that there's no way to apply "one size fits all" templates to them all. Some will shine like you wouldn't believe, if given the chance, and some would, at best, be crappy employees. I doubt there would be a problem with workplace violence, with most, but it's entirely possible that you could end up with a "dud." In short, each case needs to be handled on an individual basis, with careful, extensive human interaction. Lots of "tell me a story" interviews. Coding tests are likely to be useless. Since that kind of employee search seems to be a thing of the past, in our industry, it can be tough for these folks to get in the door. This woman went to bat for her friend. There's not a whole lot of folks willing to do that. BTW: The US is horrible for that kind of thing. Even a small misdemeanor can be a scarlet letter for life. I knew a guy that was busted in [an Ivy-League] college for pot (a misdemeanor), and pursued a career in banking. Even a quarter-century later, that bust followed him, and stunted his chances (he was real good). One of the most intelligent people I ever met (and I have met a lot of really smart people) was a violent felon that went away at 17, and was profoundly twisted by the experience. He was never able to readjust properly. That marvelous intellect was never able to benefit us.
  • 737maxtw 6y ago
    I'm kinda surprised your guy got in trouble. Many banking places don't even drug test..
    • ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
      It was a school thing. I never heard the story. He was uncomfortable talking about it, so I never pressed. Once it's on the record, though, HR will always find it. I've known folks from the finance industry for thirty years. They are...interesting characters. The Wolf of Wall Street kinda made them look like choirboys.
• animanoir 6y ago
  Jumping from one prison to another, huh?
• l0k3ndr 6y ago
  Thank you. You are an awesome person. It's a distant dream to have a society where one can restart anytime.
• didibus 6y ago
  Anyone has the right to feel uneasy by the thought of a an ex-con working with them and all that. But you need to ask yourself what the alternatives are? I remember seeing some general statistics, most crime are committed by men of a certain age range, and rarely after 30 do people commit more crimes. Some of it can be explained by hormones and life pressures. Now there's exceptions, but you need to trust the prison system (I know that sounds hard) to figure out who is still a likely deranged individual needing to be kept locked up some more, and who is rehabilitated. A rehabilitated person that has served its time, if not given a chance to equal opportunity afterwards, is more likely to again be put under life pressures that doesn't set them up to be law abiding. Even if they're law abiding, we still lose on good work they could do, by not giving them opportunities. This is the things I try and remind myself of when I feel the unease. But rationally speaking, I don't see any better alternatives. The problem doesn't go away by just ignoring it so...
  • base698 6y ago
    I had a roommate just after college that was a civil engineer and had a decent job. Upon getting to know him and his other friends I found out he'd done time for robbery and trafficking. He had come from a really poor back lground. His first year in college he saw all these kids with BMWs with rich parents. He decided he wanted one too so he made it happen. Being given a second chance worked for him.
• cbuchanan 6y ago
  Everyone deserves a chance to be better. I hope more people convicted of crimes are able to get the opportunity to build a better life for themselves. And I hope more employers are inclined to give those opportunities.
• TheLastMile 6y ago
  In the US, more than 60% of people released from prison return, and our program alumni continue to prove that the way to stop the cycle is through career opportunities. Many TLM grads have returned home after decades in prison and gotten good jobs in tech. The key is making useful resources like coding classes available to those inside seeking opportunity. By the way - TLM is hiring a Dev Ops & IT Manager, if you want to help us grow our in-prison tech program: https://thelastmile.org/work-with-us/#2321 https://thelastmile.org/work-with-us/#2321
  • ano88888 6y ago
    It is great that programming is helping people with criminal record. On the other hand, if you are a programmer , unless you are one of top ones in the world, anyone can compete with you. Someone can switch jobs and take a few months of code bootcamp and become your competitor. Your years of experience only make you less valuable. Anyone can spend a few months learning to code and replace you. The demand for programmers is strong right now but the supply is increasing so fast as even imamates can do it. It is sad on that perspective.
    • red_trumpet 6y ago
      > Your years of experience only make you less valuable. Can you elaborate on that?
      • ano88888 6y ago
        age discrimination prevalent in the tech industry (unless you're the world top expert)
        • xiphias2 6y ago
          In my experience the only way to fight age discrimination is to reach out to ex-colleagues. I sent my otherwise great resume to many companies without any callback, but I didn't want to ask my friends for help as I wanted to do it alone. After talking to my colleague, who said ,,Oh sure, just tell me which companies you want to interview to, my wife works at Facebook anyways'', I was hired instantly.
• RBBronson123 6y ago
  I'm very heartened by the quantity--and quality of responses addressing the original post. When I launched my new company, 70 Million Jobs, on Hacker News, it emerged as one of the platform's most commented-upon posts. In the intervening three years since, my team and I have served on the front lines of the efforts to help the 70 million Americans--1 in 3 adults--with a record land a job. First, the facts: there's a ~75% chance that after release from jail or prison, an individual will be rearrested. Nearly all of these people will be unemployed at time of arrest. Contrariwise, those that do manage to land a job almost never recidivate, and in fact, go on to lead satisfying, productive lives. Perhaps counter-intuitively, these folks do incredibly well on the job: a SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) report found that 80% of hiring managers believe that when hiring someone with a record, "the quality of hire is as good as if not better than when hiring someone with no record." While many companies hang on to age-old myths relating to on-the-job behavior of this population (they'll be trouble makers, they'll commit crimes on the job, they'll be violent, they'll disrupt our workforce), the data suggest the very opposite. In fact, because they generally have so few opportunities, they tend to work harder with a better attitude than co-workers, because they know another job is not necessarily available. I continue to find it shocking that companies that pride themselves on making data-driven decisions have in place hiring matrices that hearken back to another time when attitudes--and crimes--were very different. Most HR professionals have no idea why existing parameters are what they are. It behooves us as a society to rethink our approach to criminal justice in general and reentry, specifically: 1. Almost everyone incarcerated will be released eventually. If they can't find a reasonable job, they can't buy food, care for their families and put a roof over their heads. What would you do under such circumstances. 2. The economic cost of reincarceration is estimated at more that $100 billion annually. 3. The social cost of recidivism is inestimable: lives are ruined, families are torn apart, communities are decimated, new victims are created, cops are shot, etc. 4. An intelligent plan to get folks working would directly correlate to reduced recidivism. The net cost would drop dramatically enough so as to fund the homeless crisis. People with sophisticated skills--live programmers--have it much easier than the rank-in-file incarcerated population, who often have little education and less job experience. Rarely are important social issues so cut and dry: Get people jobs and things get much better. Rarer still are issues that Republicans and Democrats can agree upon. This is an imminently fixable problem.
• Romanulus 6y ago
  How cool would it be if she got hired to work on another update for Prison Architect?
• Jackypot 6y ago
  I do wonder why people are so motivated to help the perpetrators of violent crimes. You could take that same energy and help the victims instead. I doubt whoever suffered whatever violence it was that merited 13 years has forgotten the whole thing by now. I doubt they're stoked to see their attacker off to start a cushy new job. You don't get 13 years for something trivial.* If after that time you find it to get a job, well, you kinda have to wear that. *for non-violent stuff, like drugs, obviously you can. I'm referring to this specific example, which is described as violent. Non-violence shouldn't impact your future in the same way.
  • bastawhiz 6y ago
    There's no shortage of jobs for both groups. It's never been one-or-the-other. We can either admit that prison sentences aren't actually meant to rehabilitate criminals and they exist solely as a way of inflicting punishment (as you imply), or we can take the folks coming out the back end of that system and give them opportunities to rejoin society as a productive citizen. The attitude of "you made a bad choice, therefore you're no longer worthy of opportunity" is exactly why the United States has the highest imprisonment rates in the world: when folks come out of prison and have every door to rebuilding their life shut, what do you expect is going to happen? That they move away to become a monk in a cave somewhere? It's funny to me to see HN comments so strongly opposed to "cancel culture" but then as soon as someone talks about folks being released from prison, it's "If after that time you find it to get a job, well, you kinda have to wear that."
  • chickenpotpie 6y ago
    We Americans are bad at forgiving. If someone commits a crime we think they should get whatever comes their way, but people make mistakes and I want to live in a society where someone can screw up, but work hard to improve themselves and become a productive member of society. If you have two children and one is constantly bullying the other, you dont take the bullied child out for icecream everytime because that doesn’t improve the situation in the long term. You put the time and energy into the misbehaving one to correct the situation forever.
  • themacguffinman 6y ago
• yelling_cat 6y ago
  In college I worked as a phone dispatcher for a company that had a slick homegrown system for managing accounts, billing and dispatching. It was faster, fuller-featured and more intuitive than the commercial systems I'd seen at the time. When the dev swung by the office one day I chatted with him and was surprised to learnt that he'd gotten his start coding in prison as well. He hadn't used computers at all before being incarcerated, but got hooked in his first class when he typed something at the command line and got an error in response. He muttered something like "I'll show you, stupid machine" and committed then and there to getting the device to do what he wanted it to. Ten years later he had a successful business building and maintaining systems like the one I was using for small businesses all over the area.
• carrolldunham 6y ago
  >here's how she got the job....I reached out to a friend ok. close tab
  • dang 6y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly, and we're hoping for a different sort of conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• metadatabad 6y ago
  That is wonderful news to read. In America, the legal systems convictions really carry no valid meaning. The common person gets punished with a felony for taking a crap, while the "elite" get away with literal murder.
• xorfish 6y ago
  The real tragedy is, that this story isn't the norm. Here is a comparison to a maximum security prison in Norway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNpehw-Yjvs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNpehw-Yjvs
• poorman 6y ago
  I've heard of similar situations and I'm glad people with the power to help lift others up are taking the initiative. George Taylor (previously President of Untappd) has been working with active gang members to start a brewery called TruColors. Turns out a lot of gang violence can be attributed to the economic situation of a community and providing employment opportunities to people who have been previously incarcerated can improve the economic situation of these communities. https://trucolors.co/ https://trucolors.co/ "In Your Shoes" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GdT_4gFuuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GdT_4gFuuw
  • dhosek 6y ago
    Indeed. In Los Angeles, there's Homeboy Industries, started by Jesuit priest Greg Boyle. https://homeboyindustries.org https://homeboyindustries.org If I were to win the lottery I would spend a month with Greg to understand how things work and can be replicated then build something similar on the west side of Chicago.
• ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
  krrkrkrk prisoners :D It's not a clever turn to end in prison... more like stupid... Be conservativ with your ascencion... it's not a glory for everybody :Ð
• HeavyStorm 6y ago
  Congratulations. The world need such examples.
• thrownaway954 6y ago
  Any public or government job will require a background check, most private jobs don't. That doesn't mean you can't get a government job. I will say that the doors are there, you just have to have the courage to knock.
  • Meph504 6y ago
    I don't think it's fair or wise to tell people this, do you any data to support this claim? I don't know any career track companies that don't do background checks, there are too many services now that make them insanely easy to do, that it's basically uploading a resume and/or filling out the form and you can get results back the same day.
    • thrownaway954 6y ago
      yes i do cause i've worked in both the government and private sectors. all government jobs required a background check and some even security clearance. quite a few private did also, but most of them don't cause they don't want to spend the money on them or down right don't care about your past cause they have a past themselves. i will say that just because you have a criminal record doesn't mean that you are automatically disqualified. you just have to be upfront and tell before they do the background check. the whole thing is that everyone hates wasting their time. if you tell them up front that you have a history most will thank you and tell you not to worry about it. that is why i'm saying that you have to courage to knock on the door. lots of people see that the job requires a background check and immediately move on disqualifying themselves.
      • Meph504 6y ago
        Firstly, I'm not saying not to try, certainly you should, hard to get a job without applying. But I do not think its a fair expectation to say "most of them don't cause they don't want to spend the money on them or down right don't care about your past." I've never seen anything that what would lead me to believe that "most" is accurate, and at best "some" would be closer to accurate. Basic background checks aren't expensive, and take almost no time to complete, goodhire is an example where even small companies can get a background check done for $30-$50 per applicant. Again, I'm not saying don't apply, but I don't think its a good idea to tell people "most don't care" because they are going to likely face an uphill battle, and that many people are going to hold a criminal history against them. I do agree that being upfront about it, is the best choice, and if I was to make a recommendation, it would be to seek expungement where possible, and stack your training, certifications, and references as much as possible to attempt to overcome the issue.
• g5becks 6y ago
  I went through the same situation, except I chose to work for myself instead of going into the job market. I shared a small part of my story for the first time on reddit [1] , which led to me being interviewed on the stackoverflow podcast [2] . All I can say is that from my experience, knowing how to code is a skill that has proven to be indispensable. I don’t know what I would be doing if it wasn’t for the fact that I can create things I can sell, with no funding, and nothing but ideas. In the past, my options were few, now they seem limitless. Much respect for your friend, and congrats on her success! It’s not easy at all to actually self rehabilitate behind those walls. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ht5krp/prisons_are_banning_books_that_teach_prisoners/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ht5krp/prisons... https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/what-its-like-learning-to-program-in-prison-TgaFwPjC https://the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/w...
  • steve76 6y ago
    In order to get a paycheck today, you have to: 1. Connect with ownership on a personal level. Relate shared life experiences. Stabbed someone to death? Beat someone half dead resulting in life long paralysis? What great break room conversation. 2. Waste a decade studying to an interview. Who cares for such childish pursuits such as humanitarianism and contributing to the expansion of our shared collective knowledge. This is a job interview we're talking about. For reference please see the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show or the rehab demo scene from A Clockwork Orange. Bullying. Violence. Churning people for money like some slow motion organ vampire. yeah. That's about right. Don't like the work don't take the money.
• theoneanon42 6y ago
  Reading these stories always stirs emotions. It's great that she landed a job. At the same time, it's hard to not think about how many other folks won't have the same happy chance of circumstances. When I was 19 I went to federal prison for computer-related crimes. After I was released I tried getting "normal" jobs - Dominos, McDonalds, etc, but had less than stellar luck on that front. I started my own thing doing affiliate marketing and made enough to pay bill. Thankfully this was before I had a family. Now I've been in the consulting and contracting space for years, worked with/at Fortune 10 companies, HIPAA and PCI regulated shops too. Recently, after a failed start up, I needed to get a "real" job. After the first two offers were pulled back, I changed my interview tactics. Now, on the very first phone call with a human, I bring up my nearly 20 year old conviction. It's never come up on a background check due to how the vast majority of commercial background checks work. My name, however, is quite unique and news articles are still some top ranking sites about me. One of my pie-in-the-sky goals is to try my hand at another start up, and in the process build out a program to train other felons with how to program. With all the folks I've been around throughout my career, some of the smartest of them were people I met in prison. There's so much wasted talent there.
• react_burger38 6y ago
  I think it's really cool that we're teaching people in prison how to code, sincerely. I hope soon we can start teaching kids in Idaho where I grew up how to code as well....
• jgaa 6y ago
  Well, Java programming can definitely be felt like punishment. I hope they don't torture prisoners with /that/.
• zahma 6y ago
  Credit goes to this woman and the companies who give felons a second chance. This kind of news makes me a little less cynical.
• known 6y ago
  "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism" --Hubert Horatio Humphrey Jr. (b. 1911)
• deleted 6y ago
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