14 ms·

Only 20% of the US population lives in rural areas[0]. Pre-pandemic, the national average one-way commute time was half an hour[1]. Given typical (pre-pandemic)

Only 20% of the US population lives in rural areas[0]. Pre-pandemic, the national average one-way commute time was half an hour[1]. Given typical (pre-pandemic) traffic in most cities, much of that commute time will be spent in traffic congestion and very little will be spent at high speeds. Rural areas, and locations with severe winter weather, have special needs for which higher speeds and more robust vehicles are appropriate, but smaller, lighter, and slower vehicles are a viable option for most Americans. It's laughably out of touch to believe the US is even half rural. That ship sailed a very long time ago. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-210.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2016/cb16-210... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/study-states-with-the-longest-and-shortest-commutes.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/study-states-with-the-longes...

pubby 6y ago
The parent comment was presumably talking about the suburbs and sprawl, of which 55% of Americans live. These areas were designed for cars.
- mushbino 6y ago
  We're talking about two types of car so we understand they were designed for cars. Is there something particularly interesting about electric cars with the suburban model?
  - nine_k 6y ago
    Of course. Suburban environment is not so dense so you could expect the nearest fast charger be pretty far away. Driving in a city traffic involves a lot of acceleration and slowing down, where the electric recuperative braking shines, unlike on a highway. OTOH in suburban setting you have a good chance to be able to put a fast charger into your garage (and you have a garage!), and maybe even charge the car from solar panels on your roof (and the roof is yours!). In a city, chances are you park in a multi-level parking or on a street, and charging your car from an electric outlet of your third-floor apartment is not realistic. The parking garage has a higher chance to provide charging, though.
bumby 6y ago
I see this stat come up from time to time in HN discussions but what is sometimes lost is that what the census considers “urban” is pretty far from common parlance usage of the term. According to the census, to not be “rural” you only need a population above 2,500.[1] Having lived in communities this small, long commutes can be a fairly regular part of life. I would venture to say most people would consider much of the “urban” dwellers by census standards live quite a “rural” life. [1] https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...
- alex_young 6y ago
  I found that intriguing, so I looked into it a bit. The census defines 3 population area groups, urban areas (+50k), urban clusters (2.5k-50k), and rural (-2.5k). If you combine urban clusters and rural that’s still only 28% of the population, and you’ll be including a lot of people who don’t consider life very rural. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/ua-facts.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/104wPPSJ_4CzutRK5Ypp_w0bXvooq0pY7tGDG1bhzRRE/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/104wPPSJ_4CzutRK5Ypp_...
  - wand3r 6y ago
    I don't fully know if this is the best way to approximate the original posit, which is basically people in the US have to drive super far. However, even in your approximation that is slightly over 92 Million people. Leaving aside the rest of the population that may have to travel in between urban areas and have no rail or reasonable public transit to supplement a car in most situations.
    - alex_young 6y ago
      Fair enough. I do know that much of Europe is something less than urban by this measure, and they seem to get by fine with a lot fewer cars, and the cars they have are almost always much smaller than ours. Perhaps this is one of those self perpetuating problems.
petre 6y ago
Good luck selling a golf cart to car users. I think the future is vehicles like those that we saw in Minority Report. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrxyr1CjiSM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrxyr1CjiSM
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Yup. It's hilariously naive to think that as GDP goes slowly up over time (with the occasional dip) people are gonna somehow accept lower standards of living, smaller cars. Society just doesn't go backwards in terms of living standards unless there's literally no other choice and forcing it backwards artificially is not something people will take kindly to. Given a sufficiently strong government you might be able to get people to suck it up for awhile but that "awhile" is gonna end with a lot of people getting shot.
  - Bayart 6y ago
    >lower standards of living, smaller cars. Associating smaller cars with « lower standards of living » isn't exactly universal.
    - TeeMassive 6y ago
      Not everyone lives in big cities without snow and without kids.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        Being bigger doesn't automatically make a car better at snow. A family with kids probably has more than one car, and probably only needs one big one.
        TeeMassive 6y ago
        > Being bigger doesn't automatically make a car better at snow. Huh yes it does. Especially 4x4 and higher to the ground which are two qualities SUVs and trucks tend to have compared to "normal" cars. > A family with kids probably has more than one car, and probably only needs one big one. First of all that's not true, it's pretty much 50/50 if there's only one car or not and it mostly depends on budget, work location and schedule. Also, people with families tend to bring with them more stuff than what can be put inside the trunk.
echelon 6y ago
Good luck living in the state of Georgia or Texas or North Carolina or Florida without a car. I'd imagine a smaller car would be problematic, too. Edit: I'm being downvoted, but I live / have lived in these places. What gives? Do you have direct knowledge to the contrary? The ideals of city living are rather myopic when you consider how large the continental US is and how much sprawl most metros have.
- zip1234 6y ago
  Georgia and much of the US has car-requiring zoning laws that should change to allow more intelligent use of land and not necessitate ridiculous commutes.
- mrgordon 6y ago
  I live in Florida without a car. Where there is a will there is a way. The truth is the lack of proper urban planning due to over reliance on the automobile is why European cities always feel so much nicer than cities in the states you mention. If we continue to embrace sprawl then we will continue to have long commutes, worse health, and be isolated in our homes without anything to walk to.
  - non-entity 6y ago
    I do it as well. I've done it in other states down here as well. Like you said its possible, but theres definitely a hit on my QoL.
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    > Where there is a will there is a way. I get it that you don't have a family or maybe you just don't have the money. Here in Canada there was this provincial deputy from a very left leaning and pro public transport party that got elected. You know the first thing she did with her salary? She bought a SUV (https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/11/19/la-deputee-catherine-dorion-possede-un-vus https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/11/19/la-deputee-catherine-...) > The truth is the lack of proper urban planning due to over reliance on the automobile is why European cities always feel so much nicer than cities in the states you mention. And we saw how that was great during the pandemic, and that's not even mentioning other calamities that could happen. And that's not even taking snow into account. Not everyone lives in California. > If we continue to embrace sprawl then we will continue to have long commutes, worse health, and be isolated in our homes without anything to walk to. Or organize planning so that everything is more distributed. There are no reasons for mega cities to exist in the Internet Age.
tomc1985 6y ago
Semi-rural areas need big, fast vehicles as well. Have you ever been to a medium-size, out-of-the-way town outside of a popular urban space? They're everywhere, and they're super spread out.
yyyuutt 6y ago
Not sure what you mean about you need big cars in winter. Scandanavia, Russia, Ukraine, Japan etc do just fine with regular size cars.
- bluejellybean 6y ago
  I grew up in Northern Michigan, 6+ foot snow piles from drifts were the norm. Growing up, all we could ever afford were tiny sedans. Can you do it, sure, absolutely. The problem is a sedan not capable for all winter tasks, even minor inclines on ice create a major impediment to getting to work. My mother recently chose to spend a little extra on here quality of life and purchased her first SUV. The effect is that you forget ice even exists, it's incredible! To me, this entire problem can be solved by having a market with varying options for varying situations in life. If you don't want to spend the extra money on a big SUV, you don't have to, and one can use their own reasoning to decide what's right for them. If some person in Russia is happy with driving a crappy little car, all the more power to them. If they want to spend more on a vehicle that more adequately handles the conditions, I would be happy to sell them a big SUV! I've lived in both rural areas in secluded towns of less than 3000 people in the wintery north and in cities with 1 million+ metros that hardly get a few inches of rain, let alone snow. Different situations call for different tools and if one doesn't like their current mode of transport, they are always free to either move somewhere that fits with their lifestyle more adequately or simply change modes of transportation. I'm all about the right tool for the job for your life. Personally, I hate snow and love walking so I choose a city that is both walkable has relatively short winter months (Ann Arbor, MI). I'm able to walk or bike to work for most of the year, but I choose to own a vehicle to handle snowy days and Costco visits. Could I get rid of my car? Absolutely. Uber, Lyft, and good neighbors to the rescue... but the cost of ownership is so low compared to the value I get in return. By keeping my car and paying a small amount for gas, maintenance, insurance, etc.., I get to travel anywhere in the continental united states whenever I damn well please without talking to another person, why would I want to get rid of that? If my neighbor hates to travel, hates driving, and is fine with walking a few blocks or waiting on the bus/train to get groceries every few days, all the more power to them. Been there, done that, I'll take my car.
  - 6y ago
austincheney 6y ago
> Given typical (pre-pandemic) traffic in most cities, much of that commute time will be spent in traffic congestion and very little will be spent at high speeds. That is not factually accurate given your prior statement. In my personal case I have to sometimes wait 30-40 mins in traffic to get to the freeway about 5 miles away but once there the remaining 40 miles of commute takes about 30 minutes. This about average in the super giant US urban area where I live.
hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
Driving between towns?
aiisjustanif 6y ago
Most of Texas is not considered to be rural by this basis and still most commutes of 30 minutes in places like Houston, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Lubbock, Amarillo, Beaumont, and San Antonio are considered “short drives”.
marcinzm 6y ago
Even parts of the US that are "urban" are sprawling highway dependent beasts. Go to Houston or even the SF Bay Area. That's not even counting the sprawling suburbs that can go for 50+ miles around the city. They're technically urban but not dense enough to get anywhere without a highway. San Francisco to South Bay is like 45 minutes on the highway without traffic. I did that trip every few weeks when I lived there to see one friend or another. My daily commute was 15 minutes on the highway at highway speeds and I avoided traffic by starting and leaving later.
ianai 6y ago
I wish it was standard practice for cities to move away from the highways connecting them to other regions. Have a loop circling the city. Then have park and rent or ride areas for people visiting. Or go the other way and take the ~20% real estate tax of increasing parking lot and road widths. I don’t see either as viable. Another idea would be to build out bullet trains and infrastructure. Make a societal decision to reconnect all rural areas so living there and working in any of a number of cities is readily accessible.

pubby 6y ago

The parent comment was presumably talking about the suburbs and sprawl, of which 55% of Americans live. These areas were designed for cars.

mushbino 6y ago
We're talking about two types of car so we understand they were designed for cars. Is there something particularly interesting about electric cars with the suburban model?
- nine_k 6y ago
  Of course. Suburban environment is not so dense so you could expect the nearest fast charger be pretty far away. Driving in a city traffic involves a lot of acceleration and slowing down, where the electric recuperative braking shines, unlike on a highway. OTOH in suburban setting you have a good chance to be able to put a fast charger into your garage (and you have a garage!), and maybe even charge the car from solar panels on your roof (and the roof is yours!). In a city, chances are you park in a multi-level parking or on a street, and charging your car from an electric outlet of your third-floor apartment is not realistic. The parking garage has a higher chance to provide charging, though.

bumby 6y ago

I see this stat come up from time to time in HN discussions but what is sometimes lost is that what the census considers “urban” is pretty far from common parlance usage of the term. According to the census, to not be “rural” you only need a population above 2,500.[1] Having lived in communities this small, long commutes can be a fairly regular part of life. I would venture to say most people would consider much of the “urban” dwellers by census standards live quite a “rural” life. [1] https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...

alex_young 6y ago
I found that intriguing, so I looked into it a bit. The census defines 3 population area groups, urban areas (+50k), urban clusters (2.5k-50k), and rural (-2.5k). If you combine urban clusters and rural that’s still only 28% of the population, and you’ll be including a lot of people who don’t consider life very rural. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/ua-facts.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/104wPPSJ_4CzutRK5Ypp_w0bXvooq0pY7tGDG1bhzRRE/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/104wPPSJ_4CzutRK5Ypp_...
- wand3r 6y ago
  I don't fully know if this is the best way to approximate the original posit, which is basically people in the US have to drive super far. However, even in your approximation that is slightly over 92 Million people. Leaving aside the rest of the population that may have to travel in between urban areas and have no rail or reasonable public transit to supplement a car in most situations.
  - alex_young 6y ago
    Fair enough. I do know that much of Europe is something less than urban by this measure, and they seem to get by fine with a lot fewer cars, and the cars they have are almost always much smaller than ours. Perhaps this is one of those self perpetuating problems.

petre 6y ago

Good luck selling a golf cart to car users. I think the future is vehicles like those that we saw in Minority Report. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrxyr1CjiSM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrxyr1CjiSM

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Yup. It's hilariously naive to think that as GDP goes slowly up over time (with the occasional dip) people are gonna somehow accept lower standards of living, smaller cars. Society just doesn't go backwards in terms of living standards unless there's literally no other choice and forcing it backwards artificially is not something people will take kindly to. Given a sufficiently strong government you might be able to get people to suck it up for awhile but that "awhile" is gonna end with a lot of people getting shot.
- Bayart 6y ago
  >lower standards of living, smaller cars. Associating smaller cars with « lower standards of living » isn't exactly universal.
  - TeeMassive 6y ago
    Not everyone lives in big cities without snow and without kids.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Being bigger doesn't automatically make a car better at snow. A family with kids probably has more than one car, and probably only needs one big one.
      - TeeMassive 6y ago
        > Being bigger doesn't automatically make a car better at snow. Huh yes it does. Especially 4x4 and higher to the ground which are two qualities SUVs and trucks tend to have compared to "normal" cars. > A family with kids probably has more than one car, and probably only needs one big one. First of all that's not true, it's pretty much 50/50 if there's only one car or not and it mostly depends on budget, work location and schedule. Also, people with families tend to bring with them more stuff than what can be put inside the trunk.

echelon 6y ago

Good luck living in the state of Georgia or Texas or North Carolina or Florida without a car. I'd imagine a smaller car would be problematic, too. Edit: I'm being downvoted, but I live / have lived in these places. What gives? Do you have direct knowledge to the contrary? The ideals of city living are rather myopic when you consider how large the continental US is and how much sprawl most metros have.

zip1234 6y ago
Georgia and much of the US has car-requiring zoning laws that should change to allow more intelligent use of land and not necessitate ridiculous commutes.
mrgordon 6y ago
I live in Florida without a car. Where there is a will there is a way. The truth is the lack of proper urban planning due to over reliance on the automobile is why European cities always feel so much nicer than cities in the states you mention. If we continue to embrace sprawl then we will continue to have long commutes, worse health, and be isolated in our homes without anything to walk to.
- non-entity 6y ago
  I do it as well. I've done it in other states down here as well. Like you said its possible, but theres definitely a hit on my QoL.
- TeeMassive 6y ago
  > Where there is a will there is a way. I get it that you don't have a family or maybe you just don't have the money. Here in Canada there was this provincial deputy from a very left leaning and pro public transport party that got elected. You know the first thing she did with her salary? She bought a SUV (https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/11/19/la-deputee-catherine-dorion-possede-un-vus https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/11/19/la-deputee-catherine-...) > The truth is the lack of proper urban planning due to over reliance on the automobile is why European cities always feel so much nicer than cities in the states you mention. And we saw how that was great during the pandemic, and that's not even mentioning other calamities that could happen. And that's not even taking snow into account. Not everyone lives in California. > If we continue to embrace sprawl then we will continue to have long commutes, worse health, and be isolated in our homes without anything to walk to. Or organize planning so that everything is more distributed. There are no reasons for mega cities to exist in the Internet Age.

tomc1985 6y ago

Semi-rural areas need big, fast vehicles as well. Have you ever been to a medium-size, out-of-the-way town outside of a popular urban space? They're everywhere, and they're super spread out.

yyyuutt 6y ago

Not sure what you mean about you need big cars in winter. Scandanavia, Russia, Ukraine, Japan etc do just fine with regular size cars.

bluejellybean 6y ago
I grew up in Northern Michigan, 6+ foot snow piles from drifts were the norm. Growing up, all we could ever afford were tiny sedans. Can you do it, sure, absolutely. The problem is a sedan not capable for all winter tasks, even minor inclines on ice create a major impediment to getting to work. My mother recently chose to spend a little extra on here quality of life and purchased her first SUV. The effect is that you forget ice even exists, it's incredible! To me, this entire problem can be solved by having a market with varying options for varying situations in life. If you don't want to spend the extra money on a big SUV, you don't have to, and one can use their own reasoning to decide what's right for them. If some person in Russia is happy with driving a crappy little car, all the more power to them. If they want to spend more on a vehicle that more adequately handles the conditions, I would be happy to sell them a big SUV! I've lived in both rural areas in secluded towns of less than 3000 people in the wintery north and in cities with 1 million+ metros that hardly get a few inches of rain, let alone snow. Different situations call for different tools and if one doesn't like their current mode of transport, they are always free to either move somewhere that fits with their lifestyle more adequately or simply change modes of transportation. I'm all about the right tool for the job for your life. Personally, I hate snow and love walking so I choose a city that is both walkable has relatively short winter months (Ann Arbor, MI). I'm able to walk or bike to work for most of the year, but I choose to own a vehicle to handle snowy days and Costco visits. Could I get rid of my car? Absolutely. Uber, Lyft, and good neighbors to the rescue... but the cost of ownership is so low compared to the value I get in return. By keeping my car and paying a small amount for gas, maintenance, insurance, etc.., I get to travel anywhere in the continental united states whenever I damn well please without talking to another person, why would I want to get rid of that? If my neighbor hates to travel, hates driving, and is fine with walking a few blocks or waiting on the bus/train to get groceries every few days, all the more power to them. Been there, done that, I'll take my car.
- 6y ago

austincheney 6y ago

> Given typical (pre-pandemic) traffic in most cities, much of that commute time will be spent in traffic congestion and very little will be spent at high speeds. That is not factually accurate given your prior statement. In my personal case I have to sometimes wait 30-40 mins in traffic to get to the freeway about 5 miles away but once there the remaining 40 miles of commute takes about 30 minutes. This about average in the super giant US urban area where I live.

hobby-coder-guy 6y ago

Driving between towns?

aiisjustanif 6y ago

Most of Texas is not considered to be rural by this basis and still most commutes of 30 minutes in places like Houston, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Lubbock, Amarillo, Beaumont, and San Antonio are considered “short drives”.

marcinzm 6y ago

Even parts of the US that are "urban" are sprawling highway dependent beasts. Go to Houston or even the SF Bay Area. That's not even counting the sprawling suburbs that can go for 50+ miles around the city. They're technically urban but not dense enough to get anywhere without a highway. San Francisco to South Bay is like 45 minutes on the highway without traffic. I did that trip every few weeks when I lived there to see one friend or another. My daily commute was 15 minutes on the highway at highway speeds and I avoided traffic by starting and leaving later.

ianai 6y ago

I wish it was standard practice for cities to move away from the highways connecting them to other regions. Have a loop circling the city. Then have park and rent or ride areas for people visiting. Or go the other way and take the ~20% real estate tax of increasing parking lot and road widths. I don’t see either as viable. Another idea would be to build out bullet trains and infrastructure. Make a societal decision to reconnect all rural areas so living there and working in any of a number of cities is readily accessible.