52 ms·

Ami, a tiny cube on wheels that French 14-year-olds can drive

• rahimnathwani 6y ago
  Similar to the cars mentioned in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738395 usrusr's comment in that thread: "And less obvious ones, like https://www.ellenator-gmbh.de/ https://www.ellenator-gmbh.de/ which exists solely to exploit a legal loophole to get something that is arguably more dangerous than a car into the hands of people who are not licensed to drive a car."
  • peterburkimsher 6y ago
    I'm 30 years old and don't have a driving licence. Many people learn to drive because their parents paid for lessons. Mine did not. In university and since, I lived in many different countries. I haven't had a long-term visa. Currently I'm in New Zealand. Here it takes 2 years to get a driving licence. If my residency visa is approved, I'll be able to start learning to drive. For now, I use an old rusty bicycle that I bought from a scrapyard for $20. It would be nice to have a vehicle like that in Paris, because it would cover my head when it rains. Legislation was intended to educate and protect people, and that is good. The problem is that the educators realised they had a captive market, ramped up prices, and now entire market segments (foreigners, young people) are excluded. Compared to the dangers of other mobility options (e.g. scooters), I think the Ami is much safer. It would be interesting to see how it is treated in other areas of law (parking fines, collisions) compared to bicycles.
    • searchableguy 6y ago
      I wish for good public transportation. Many Asian countries seem to get it right and it's way less risky statistically. My friend in HK love talking about the buses and trains. They are always on time. Right now, I would prefer to have this over my bike or a scooter because Indian roads are such a hell. Many people here don't even have driving license and jaywalking is common. A new emerging trend is people sticking to their phone while driving. I would feel much safer. Even my dad get into almost accidents a few times monthly. He has been driving for decades and always maintain a stable speed of under 45kmph.
      • peterburkimsher 6y ago
        I use public transport as well as a bicycle! In Auckland there's a busway with regular services to the city every 5-10 minutes. The connecting bus to the house goes once every 30 minutes. By bike it takes 10 minutes. To go from the house to the office would take 1.5 hours by bus. By bicycle it takes 20 minutes. Similar story in Kaohsiung: the MRT wasn't near my house, so I'd ride a bike to go to it. Other people there drive motor scooters (also dangerous) to and from the MRT. It was somewhat romantic to ride on the back of my girlfriend's scooter, hugging her from behind. I know we would've appreciated the privacy of an enclosed Ami though.
    • hnzix 6y ago
      > I'm 30 years old and don't have a driving licence. Many people learn to drive because their parents paid for lessons. Mine did not. I envy countries that have driving as part of the school curriculum. I was in the same boat as you, and it's an incredible PITA to make the required logbook hours unless you have a partner or very patient friend. I'd suggest looking into a 150cc motorcycle license, for some reason the regulations are less strict. Still won't keep the rain off your head.
    • Ono-Sendai 6y ago
      It's much less than 2 years. I think it's only 6 months if you're over 25. (you have to have had your restricted licence 6 months to get a full licence). If you do an advanced driving course it's 3 months
  • mastazi 6y ago
    > something that is arguably more dangerous than a car but possibly less dangerous than a moped/moto-scooter, which is what most 14 year olds drive in many European countries.
• dvh 6y ago
  2 Seats, 2.4m long, 1.4m wide, top speed of 45km/h, range of 70km, €6000, Recharges from standard 220V socket (3h recharge time, 5.5kWh lithium battery). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric) It doesn't seem to be for sale in EU :(
  • tda 6y ago
    Pretty impressive battery for the price. Speed-pedelec bikes (electric assisted bikes capable of 45km/h, with <1kWh batteries) cost about the same.
• hk__2 6y ago
  > or, with €100 down, €78 a month – roughly what most Parisians pay for an all-zone metro and suburban rail pass. Not exactly true: by law, employers must pay half of that amount, so most Parisian pay €38/mo for that "all-zone metro and suburban rail pass". If you don’t work, that’s free. Pretty much nobody pays the full amount.
  • mongol 6y ago
    An interesting law, that I never heard anyone suggest here (Sweden / Stockholm). But many argue that instead the commuter pass should be free. Considering it is subsidized about 50 percent with taxes already, I think we have a good system as it is. In Stockholm the price currently is about €90 / month.
    • Raed667 6y ago
      One could argue that the Stockholm public transportation system is MUCH better than the one in Paris though.
      • efrecon 6y ago
        What makes you say that? In Paris, all subway stations are always at walking distance, even for the elderly. And you never have to wait for a metro (unless strike). In Stockholm, all is punctual, but with much lower frequency.
        • Raed667 6y ago
          I prefer the punctuality, having more personal-space and overall state of cleanness of the Stockholm train/metro
  • gregoriol 6y ago
    The half paid by the employer is actually taken from your salary. But the target of younger people generally pay a reduced/student price anyway, which is low too.
• tom_mellior 6y ago
  Oh great. More cars. Just what Paris needs. Also, it's an alternative to a scooter, but much bigger and more massive. This is "safer" -- for the driver. Less so for the people they will hit.
  • atulatul 6y ago
    prefer Dutch "bicycle buses": https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1302845178206593026 https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1302845178206593026
  • marmaduke 6y ago
    That’s what I thought. Why not make a cheap usable cargo bike? I can carry both kids on mine (https://www.lepetitporteur.com https://www.lepetitporteur.com)
    • alexisread 6y ago
      For many 14yos the attraction is that a car helps you climb the social ladder- you're perceived as that much more attractive. Bikes don't quite cut it for that. You raise a great point though, cargo bikes are much more expensive than conventional ones. I don't see why either as I'm guessing there would be a big market at a lower price point (£500 vs £300 for a conventional rather than £2500), hence the scale to make them cheap. (Thanks for link BTW, not seen this bike before)
      • marmaduke 6y ago
        > helps you climb the social ladder- you're perceived As a parent of kids a bit younger, I aspire to help them avoid this sort of thing entirely Cargo bikes don’t have to be expensive (Yuba Komba is 999€) except that they are, in the long tail format, 50 to 100% more steel, and because of the weight, drivetrain and brakes have to be good as well. A 250€ cargo bike would be an injury waiting to happen As it happens, the bike I linked is a nice Chromoly frame, disc brakes, hub gears etc. If you look at other bikes with similar components you’d be hard pressed to beat the price.
      • 6y ago
• commonturtle 6y ago
  45 kmph (28 mph) is still pretty fast for Parisian streets. I'd feel nervous about letting 14-year olds without a license drive these cars.
  • Thorrez 6y ago
    Yep, the first automobile-pedestrian death in England was caused by a car traveling 4 mph. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Bridget_Driscoll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Bridget_Driscoll
  • ggm 6y ago
    Paris traffic means the long-term average street speed is 20kph. Read the article. These toy cars can't use the peripherique or the motorways like the one lady di crashed in. The kids will be fine.
  • mauvehaus 6y ago
    As the current top comment indicates, 14 year-olds have been driving mopeds for decades. And as a great many more comments indicate, souping them up for about that long less 10 minutes.
• helsinkiandrew 6y ago
  I can see how these sound very attractive (particularly to a 14 year old). But we really need to make cities and city transportation better so these kind of vehicles aren't needed.
  • erulabs 6y ago
    To me cities are fantastic due to their diversity - to that end large monolithic public works like a single unified rail system or other mass transit are almost anathema to what a city is. Probably not a common opinion on HN: but let a thousand flowers bloom!
    • 7952 6y ago
      I wonder if there is room for compromise? For example building dedicated routes for buses, coaches and trucks. You get the benefit of big infrastructure in terms of adding capacity. But you also allow a diversity of operators.
  • dvdkon 6y ago
    In my opinion, public transport in cities is already good enough (it could be better, sure, but it's good enough that most people won't want to buy this "car"). A small "sub-car" that can be driven by younger people would make much more sense in rural areas, where public transport might exist, but maybe only once every few hours with the stop a 30 minute walk from the village. Marketing it as a city vehicle, especially in dense Paris, seems strange to me. The only people who are going to be attracted to it in that setting are those who really hate public transport.
    • adimitrov 6y ago
      What with a pandemic going on, that demographic just increased in number. We don't own a car, and used to just get everything done by bike and public transport. But we've stopped using public transport. We do more by bike now, and use car sharing wherever that would be impossible.
    • fredophile 6y ago
• jack_pp 6y ago
  I'm 28 without a licence and love electric scooters which I sometimes use on the street when I feel it's safe. I would be afraid to drive the Ami because I don't know the traffic rules and I don't think I could just go on the sidedwalk with this when I don't know what to do on the street like I can with a bike / scooter.
  • mywacaday 6y ago
    Bikes and scooters aren't allowed on pavements usually either.
    • adrianN 6y ago
      If you are unsure about the traffic situation you can always get off and push them, perfectly legally. It's a bit harder to do with a car.
• mastazi 6y ago
  For context, in many European countries (including Italy where I grew up) 14 year olds can drive mopeds or moto scooters up to 50cc and limited to a max speed of 45km/h, however most of the times[1] those have post-market modifications installed, either at home or by unscrupulous mechanics, in order to go much faster. A large portion of the public opinion in those countries see those mini-cars as a safer 4-wheel alternative. I'm not saying that those mini-cars are safe or that they are great for the environment, just putting things into perspective for people who are not familiar with the situation in Europe. [1] I don't have official statistics but anecdotally I can say that as a teenager, almost everyone I knew had modified their moped or scooter.
  • occamrazor 6y ago
    Modifications were extremely common with 2-strokes engines. Now (since about 10 years ago) mopeds must have 4-strokes engines and even with modifications they aren’t very fast or sprinting. Maybe for this reason I have seen many more electric mopeds in the last few years.
  • andretti1977 6y ago
    I live in Bergamo and can confirm that at least in the 90’s it was common habit to have a modified scooter :)
    • joking 6y ago
      It was so easy, you only had to modify the variator (the automatic transmisión of the scooter) because the limitation was just a low gear that didn’t let you go faster (think of driving always on first gear). You removed a stop on the variator that let you use the full range and the limit was gone. Anyway, 2 stroke motors were also easily tunable, and people used to change the escape, carburetor, even sometimes the cilinder was changed to have more power on those little machines.
      • eitland 6y ago
        Norwegian here: When I grew up (I was born in 1980) there was a thriving market for performance parts for "moped"s small motorcycles (max 2,5hp, 50ccm). You could get replacement cylinders and everything. According to what I heard if you upgraded everything you could get about 16hp out what used to be one of these underpowered machines.
• Someone 6y ago
  That would be good for the environment if it would replace larger cars, but seems to end up bad for it (globally. Locally, going electric likely is a plus), as it mostly replaces scooters for healthy teenage drivers, which should be replaced by human-powered bicycles.
  • Tade0 6y ago
    The environmental footprint is not that clear-cut here, because humans are generally bad at turning food into energy, so cycling has a footprint of anywhere between 22g/km (vegan diet) to ~80g/km(average US diet rich in beef) of CO2 per kilometer. Meanwhile a kilometer of driving this vehicle in France has a footprint of ~7g. The battery's manufacturing footprint sits at around 450kg of CO2 - and this is something that has to be "paid off", but it's entirely possible within the car's lifecycle. Basically unless you're vegan, it's likely more environmentally friendly in France to drive this.
    • Someone 6y ago
      Walking is less energy efficient per km than cycling, so by that logic, we should spend our lives in electric wheel chairs. I don’t want us to go there. Luckily, it may not be true that this is more environmentally friendly than cycling. I would think this 485 kg car uses more road space and causes more wear and tear on roads than a 25 kg bicycle. That must count for something. You also have to take the health benefits of cycling/the effect of more car driving on obesity into account.
• Raed667 6y ago
  I used to live next to a high-school in the south of France. A lot of teens with these "without-license" cars, mostly Twizy [1] and Chatenet [2], this is not a new phenomena. Personally, I didn't feel more in danger compared to other cars when they're around. [1] https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html [2] https://www.automobiles-chatenet.com/accueil.html https://www.automobiles-chatenet.com/accueil.html
• liquidify 6y ago
  Why would you want to put your young kids who barely know how to drive in a tiny car?
  • flower-giraffe 6y ago
    Because it’s safer than a scooter.
    • crote 6y ago
      Safer for who? The driver? What about the cyclists and pedestrians around?
• NiceWayToDoIT 6y ago
  It is interesting indeed, €6000 (~$7100 ) for 45km/h and 70km range is very affordable price and very good for many EU cities where people daily do not drive more than 70km daily. https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_patterns_of_European_car_drivers-a_mobility_survey.pdf https://setis.ec.europa.eu/system/files/Driving_and_parking_... Price can be a significant step toward transport electrification.
  • Zealotux 6y ago
    6000€ is the price of a driving license plus a very nice first car in France, I don't really see who's the target for this product.
    • searchableguy 6y ago
      Same people as Tesla owners but for their kids or grandparents this time.
    • noir_lord 6y ago
      or a full motorcycle license and a really nice sports bike which would be my way of spending it (and will be once I can reliably book training and a test again).
    • hrktb 6y ago
      driving license nets you 1000€ at least and a 5000 for a car will only work for a mildly beaten up low end manual transmission gasoline car. That doesn’t seem like a good comparison, perhaps the tweezy would be closer (smaller/easier to park while a tad less comfortable, still electric and “two-wheel” category)
      • user5994461 6y ago
        Insurance for a car is 1000 a year, possibly 2000 a year for a young driver. I bet the insurance for that car is much cheaper.
  • _ZeD_ 6y ago
• gregoriol 6y ago
  It is not clear to me why they need to make them so ugly: Citroën is pretty good with design, and then they try to sell these. It is almost as if they don't want people to buy them.
  • globular-toast 6y ago
    Brand loyalty is a huge thing with cars. It's actually really bizarre to see it. Some people won't even consider another brand of car for any reason. So these are to hook people on to the brand but make sure they want the more expensive models.
  • orthoxerox 6y ago
    The boxy shape is to minimize parking space. The weird design is to cut down on costs: as mentioned in the article, the doors are identical, the front and back panels are as well. A sleek carlet wouldn't have cost 6000€.
  • jaclaz 6y ago
    Yep, they don't need to be "ugly". But I don't think there is much to do with design, I guess all shapes have been already designed for these cars, and they all invariably end up being a sort of caricature of a "real size" car, more or less the inside needs to be big enough to house the driver and passenger (that do not and cannot shrink) whilst the outside is reduced in size as much as possible leading to things that are "stubby". The only two exceptions I know are (like it or hate it) the already mentioned Renault Twizy that has a somewhat unconventional design and the Microlino which is a sort of (good ol') Isetta replica: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745339 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20745339 https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino
  • GoToRO 6y ago
    Because they don’t. They still have petrol cars to sell and no real plans for electric full cars. The only companies that make nice electric cars are those that only sell electric cars.
• globular-toast 6y ago
  A step in the wrong direction. Children should be riding bicycles. Adults should be too. But if you get them in cars at 14 it's never going to happen. Another enemy of other road users is born.
  • ekianjo 6y ago
    > Children should be riding bicycles. Adults should be too. Not everyone is fit to ride a bicycle, and riding a bicycle where there's cars on the road is a lot more dangerous than being in a car. And let's stop using the word "should" for every problem out there, people are free to make their own choices.
    • Uhhrrr 6y ago
      Sure they're free to make their own choices, but most people are fit enough to ride bicycles, and exercise is good for you, so they should ride bicycles.
      • Broken_Hippo 6y ago
        Sure, many people are fit enough to ride a bicycle for a bit on flat land when it is dry out. I'm not sure "most" people are, though, and I'm guessing this gets less the older folks get. I do not live on flat land and I live in a place with winters. I, in fact, live in a mountainous area. Riding a bike is not an easy feat here - I've been testing this summer. Short slight inclines aren't too bad: The occasional steep hill isn't so bad. 15-30 minutes uphill, however, is too much for me. All uphill one way isn't easy. I'm not the only person that struggles with this: Biking forums are full of folks that struggle with uphill, and it takes time to get fit enough for this.
        • bserge 6y ago
          I'm not getting into the "fit or not" debate, just pointing out you don't have to ride on the bike uphill. I found it's easier to just walk (with the bike acting as support) :D
• legulere 6y ago
  I don’t understand why they put the speed limit of it at 45 km/h instead of 50 km/h. What makes traffic dangerous is people driving at different speeds which leads to overtaking. The same issue exists with pedelecs that are allowed to go 25km/h when 30 is a common speed limit.
  • mrweasel 6y ago
    50 km/h is also to low. 90 km/h is pretty much the minimum for a car. Most major cities will have a good number of people coming in on highways. 45km/h is the lowest legal speed for a Danish highways, but that’s still pretty dangerous and you’d be a hassel to the other drivers, which is also illegal. I can get work either via a highway, or by driving through the center of town. Besided adding to trafic in the city center, I’m also looking at an additional 30 minute drive. In my mind by only designing these tiny city cars to urban driving, manufactures are limiting them to the extend that they are bound to fail. Instead, with minor tweaks, they could remove full size cars and help lower pollution levels.
    • Symbiote 6y ago
      This is the car version of a "knallert" (motor scooter / moped). There are other vehicles for driving on the highway, but in Europe they need crash protection and so on.
  • MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    > What makes traffic dangerous is people driving at different speeds which leads to overtaking. I wished more people would understand this.
• krtkush 6y ago
  > There’s a rudimentary heater, and if the idea of letting a 14-year-old loose on it seems unnerving, Krygier points out that unlike with a scooter – the most likely alternative for many of the Ami’s younger potential customers – you get the stability of four wheels on a proper chassis, and are safely enclosed in a solid tubular steel frame. But it's not only about the passenger, is it? It is also about the pedestrian. A cube might be safer for a kid but the same cube going 45 kmph driven by an unlicensed person can be lethal to others.
  • adimitrov 6y ago
    The car industry has forever not given a fuck about people who aren't their direct customers, mostly because they don't have to. Nobody's buying a car on the merit that it will protect victims of a crash that aren't in the car itself. I think that's mostly due to the cognitive dissonance that people have where they think that they're not going to be the one to cause a wreck somebody else dies in. Because if you were aware of that possibility, you'd have to be aware of your responsibility to drive safely. But driving should be cool, fun, and maybe even practical, at least that's how car companies sell their product. Safety is only ever marketed to the consumer as something that protects them.
    • wazoox 6y ago
      Case in point: see the worldwide exploding sales of SUVs, which are arguably a scandal on all and every aspect.
  • qayxc 6y ago
    > the same cube going 45 kmph driven by an unlicensed person can be lethal to other You are required to have a class-AM driving licence to operate these. Unlicensed driving is a criminal offence in many countries anyway so it wouldn't matter if the person drove a little cube or a fully loaded lorry.
• wayanon 6y ago
  These could be lethal for cyclists especially if driven by youngsters.
• brianweet 6y ago
  In Amsterdam,NL we've had these for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle) And the more recent, fancier Biro: https://biro.nl https://biro.nl You're allowed to drive them with a moped licence, available for 16 y/o. Don't think they cause many accidents though, I'd say safer than a moped. They're causing issues as you are allowed to park them on the sidewalk (which is already crowded by bikes).
  • dgellow 6y ago
    Ah, that's exactly what I wanted to say. I was in Amsterdam ~2 months ago and it fascinating to see those small cars around.
• jaclaz 6y ago
  Previous thread discussing similar vehicles: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897
• echopom 6y ago
  Really surprised with the the comments here. Ami has never been created for teenagers , it was created by Peugeot to compete in the 'Licence Free EV' space. Most owners of those vehicles are adult living in Urban Areas, not '14 years old'. It's sad people keep focusing on 'Headlines' these days instead of taking a step back and actually reading the article...
  • searchableguy 6y ago
    > According to the company’s data, about half of all Ami buyers have one car and at least two children. More than 40% of those driving Amis are under 18. A majority of users say they like it because it is green, while for more than 30% of users, not taking public transport – in a time of Covid – was an important factor.
    • tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      I always understood a substantial number had lost their license after a drink driving offence.
      • tga 6y ago
        In Europe (at least) you need an AM license to drive a 50cc scooter, so also an Ami. If your license is suspended, you cannot legally operate _any_ motor vehicle.
        • jeromenerf 6y ago
          Last time I checked, in France, you need to pass a exam to demonstrate you know the laws and codes, then get a permit for the vehicle class you need. The first one is rarely voided.
          • gsnedders 6y ago
            What normally happens in most of Europe is _all_ vehicle classes are voided following an offence (including, therefore, the AM class the Ami falls in).
• antongribok 6y ago
  Everyone here is talking about licensing requirements, but I'm very curious about something else... What would insurance requirements look like for this?
• aasasd 6y ago
  > It can be recharged from a standard home socket in three hours I keep wondering how you are supposed to charge a car in an (un-specially-prepared) city if you can't afford a place in an indoors lot. Do you just throw an extension cord out your window? Do you book lamppost electricity from the local authority? Though I guess Paris is not a place with this problem.
• Misteur-Z 6y ago
  Disclaimer: lived in Paris for 20 years, specifically got my motorcycle license to avoid traffic jams and parking tickets 5 years ago. Quick facts about Paris: - there is motorcycles and scooters everywhere - most people make trips way superior to 5km to go to work or even to go out - no one can really afford parking his car outside of it's own neighborhood, because you don't have discounts then => 35 to 50€ a day! You can buy an 125cc scooter with heated grips and a nice warm rain cover for around 3000-4000€ (new) / 1500€ (old) with a 200-300km range and you don't need to pay parking anywhere (yet). IMO French automakers are lost and this car has almost market. They know they can't compete with Tesla in the near feature on real electric cars. It's way too expensive, for sure it's not targeted at 14-18yo in Paris "intra-muros". Its only features are you don't have to wear a helmet / protects you from rain. It has almost the size of a gas Smart ForTwo without the speed and range to go on a weekend trip.
• GordonS 6y ago
  > There is a nice nod to the 2CV in the Ami’s flip-up windows, while other simple, money-saving ideas include identical doors (meaning one opens backwards and the other frontwards) and similarly interchangeable front and rear panels. The windows are a nice touch, and the identical doors and interchangeable panels are, frankly, ingenious! Something I didn't see mentioned in the article was the range - as a city car, I guess it's not that important, but does anyone know what it is?
  • mauvehaus 6y ago
    The original Ford Bronco has identical door skins left and right to save money. It's one die to stamp them instead of two. I love that they're taking it to another level on the Ami.
• revax 6y ago
  Ami is small car, much like a cart, only 20000 are produced per year. It's hard to make a profit with a such low volume. Only 250 parts are used compared to 30 000 for a standard car. Source (in French) https://www.caradisiac.com/la-citroen-ami-la-meilleure-amie-des-comptables-185235.htm https://www.caradisiac.com/la-citroen-ami-la-meilleure-amie-...
  • Rexxar 6y ago
    > only 20000 are produced per year. They start selling it this year. How such a number could bring anything to the discussion ? We don't know if it will be 0 next year (if it's failure) or 200000 (if it's a success).
• 11235813213455 6y ago
  To me, there are more benefits in using a bike: maintenance, cost, health benefits, it's probably also more secure I've taken the bus for years at that age (10-18 years old) to go to school, I regret so much not using a bike, I could have woken up later and have more freedom (not have to wait for buses)
  • tgv 6y ago
    From the article: > ..., two young women stared open-mouthed. “How did you manage to get hold of it?” asked one. “ ... it’s environment-friendly" Part of its appeal is to the lazy and stupid. OTOH, riding a bicycle in Paris is not ideal, although the safety of this thing doesn't convince me either.
• Bayart 6y ago
  I find it surprisingly, and interestingly, similar to the first wave of electric cars, over a hundred years ago, such as the Baker [1]. They were small, didn't require much mechanical insight (as EVs do) and particularly suited for small drives to the grocery store. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc
• yholio 6y ago
  I believe driver-less cities will eventually converge to networks of microvehicles like this, as opposed to large, inefficient vehicles designed to handle highway speeds and risks. You can fit two such pods side by side in one of the tunnels of the Boring Company. If they run at 2 second intervals, one after the other, with an average occupancy of 1.5 people, a single tunnel can provide a peak throughput of 90 people per minute or 5400 per hour. That's about half of what a subway can handle. You could also create "formations" of pods even more tightly packed for longer cross-city links. Full computer control requires much less safety devices such as airbags - like in a subway, the crash is ruled out by proper management of trafic. Outside the tunnels, they can blend in easily and provide a sane mass transport alternative, as opposed to congesting the city with more full sized cars. An existing row of paralel parking spots is all of a sudden a mass transport station where pods dock perpendicularly and await commuters; no need for fancy elevators, just an steep slope to the tunnels below.
  • ant6n 6y ago
    We need mass transport, not utopian „mass transport alternatives“. Also, active transportation in general. Btw, using the same optimistic math, mass transit can do 90,000 pphd (2k ppl every 90s), in reality the max is around 40K.
    • yholio 6y ago
      Well, you cannot pack trains of 2K people at 90 seconds, because you reach a limit with people getting in and off in the stations, the whole system slows down with trains waiting their turn to enter the station, so real throughput decreases drastically. Additionally, infrastructure costs are much higher for similar peak rates since subway tunnels remove 3x more dirt volume, and require proportional structural materials (7.3 m bore holes vs the current Borring prototypes of 4.2m) Also, there is a more fundamental problem with reaching high thoughtputs with mass transit: you need to force people out of optimal routes from their distributed destinations and origins, into enforced stations. This makes sense for point to point links like LA to SF, but it's very inefficient when trying to cover a 2D city: the more routes and stations you add, the less you are likely to reach peak capacity of any one link. If you are going for city-wide subway, you will pay much, much more to build large, expensive tunnels that will stay mostly idle at the perifery of the system.
• teleforce 6y ago
  For a price of two Brompton electric folding bikes you can get an Ami, really nice engineering there to get to the price point. This can be a game changer in urban set up especially in my part of the world where it can protect the occupants from the weather that is either rain or hot. I'm involved in an IoT project where we have a few Toyota EV COMS cars (2nd generation) that is similar in size and purpose to Ami [1]. It's a joy to drive and convenient to use if you want to travel from A to B in urban environment. [1]https://www.newlaunches.com/archives/toyota-releases-ultra-compact-single-seater-coms-ev-with-top-speed-of-60kmh.php https://www.newlaunches.com/archives/toyota-releases-ultra-c...
• perlgeek 6y ago
  Btw French "ami" is "friend" in English.
• agumonkey 6y ago
  I'm just back from biking in a dense urban area, 45km/h for inner city is top. Few years ago some company tried the leased per hour model, sadly people degraded cars at high rate, too much money lost, service was cut. Still there's a spot here.
  • speedgoose 6y ago
    These Boloré Bluecars cars had a shit battery technology that needed to be at least 60°C (140°F) warm, all the time. Even when the car was parked and not used for hours / days. What a waste of energy.
    • agumonkey 6y ago
      Oh well, another blunder. If batteries improvements aren't just rumors a v2 could work.
• spodek 6y ago
  Just before this article went up, I had posted to my blog: "Prediction: cars will become disposable" https://joshuaspodek.com/prediction-cars-will-become-disposable https://joshuaspodek.com/prediction-cars-will-become-disposa... Then I saw this article and followed it up: "More disposable cars: Ignoring unintended side-effects" https://joshuaspodek.com/more-disposable-cars-ignoring-unintended-side-effects https://joshuaspodek.com/more-disposable-cars-ignoring-unint... I started by saying: > Walking around Manhattan, with many people moving out, sidewalks are overflowing with what they don’t value enough to keep. What are they disposing? Sofas, mattresses, shelves, chairs, books, televisions, printers, scanners, lamps, mirrors, plates, toasters, silverware, . . . I could go on. > Notice anything about them? All those things used to be once-in-a-lifetime purchases. Some were high-tech wonders when introduced—now disposable. We don’t value them as much as the effort to maintain them. We turn them into pollution. > Our market system has shifted from creating value to creating craving. People like novelty, I guess, so marketing engineers figure out how to generate craving so they can temporarily satisfy it. > Meanwhile, markets motivate people to figure out how to deliver with lower cost. The result? Everything becomes disposable—food, plates, furniture, silverware (now plasticware), clothing, everything. . . . and ended with > We don’t lack comfort and convenience. We’re choking on waste. > We like comfort and convenience, but our world doesn’t lack it. On the contrary, we’re drowning in it. Our lack of physical activity and feeling entitled is making us depressed, obese, and sick, lacking resilience, discipline, or initiative to respond. > History implies people will buy this product in droves, competitors will match it, the market will keep driving down cost and durability, increasing landfill waste. We will increase total waste and lower quality of life, meaning, and purpose.
• romanoderoma 6y ago
  Rome is already full of such vehicles and has been for at least a decade. We call them mini car or micro car. A popular brand is Ligier. The solution for traffic jams have always been mopeds here, but given their higher safety, and the price tag that was very close to a modern scooter, parents have started buying them for their children. But they have soon become a status symbol for rich kids, the prices went up considerably (between 10k and 15k but up to 30k) and now they usually rally in some of the popular high end neighborhoods (such as Parioli) and act like gangs. They fight for territory with those coming from other neighborhoods, spice up the engines and make a lot of noise. To the point that they have become a nightmare for the residents and for the police.
  • itronitron 6y ago
    Interesting, that reminds me of the classic film "The Cars That Are Paris" >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cars_That_Ate_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cars_That_Ate_Paris
    • romanoderoma 6y ago
      I've never heard of that the movie before, thanks for the the tip! If you are interested there are is a news video reportage about the "rich babies" generation in Rome, it's in Italian but auto generated English subtitles are not bad Around minute 23 they talk about the mini cars https://youtu.be/uYPKqiPY9d4 https://youtu.be/uYPKqiPY9d4
• dotcoma 6y ago
  Do people really feel safer, or more comfortable, in this tiny tin can than on a bicycle? If so, something must be really wrong with traffic and our cities.
  • Shivetya 6y ago
    Sure they do. Works with pets as well as people, give security from the sides and a roof and suddenly you have an air of safety. plus I know there is big kick here on HN for bicycles but it is wholly unrealistic to rely on a mode of transport that is not useful in all weather conditions. Hell the number of people who fall into the trap that a motorcycle will save them money and then don't ride it for the same reasons is legion. They are fun, your chance of injury is magnitudes greater though, and they are not suited for all people. This can be based on needs to carry stuff, to being secure from the weather, or being handicapped.
    • dotcoma 6y ago
      Have you checkout the numbers for places like the Netherlands, or Copenhagen? Sure, if you're in Dallas or Phoenix or Atlanta, it's not going to work, unfortunately.
  • teknopaul 6y ago
    You can't fall off a car. Big issue if you are 70
• Putintseva 6y ago
  Dominos use electro cars for delivery. practicaly the same) https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15149179/dominos-electrifies-pizza-delivery-car-news/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15149179/dominos-electrif...
• finphil 6y ago
  I find the design really cool, and it's a two-seater. ＼(◎o◎)／
• hrktb 6y ago
  > More than 40% of those driving Amis are under 18 On this quote, it should be noted this is for the Ami specifically, and not for the market it is targeting. There are other vehicles already existing in this “less than a car, more than a scooter” niche, notably Renault’s Twizy, but also makers like Aixam who build “license less” cars mostly for elderlies, people who never bothered passing the driving license or lost it at some point etc. Perhaps the Ami is just not competitive enough to take significant market share from those, and is pigeonholed in 18- market, but the whole targetable market is larger.
• beervirus 6y ago
  It’s a $7000 golf cart.
• every 6y ago
  Everything old is new again... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta
• coverband 6y ago
  I really like the concept, but isn’t €6K a bit expensive for this? If seen as a substitute for e-mopeds, it’s 4-6 times more expensive.
• angry_octet 6y ago
  If these are like most electric cars, the batteries are in a flat compartment at the bottom of the chassis in a box design, giving incredible torsional rigidity and a very low centre of mass, so great cornering. They could be pretty safe for the occupants, even fanging it down a narrow European street. However, not so safe for pedestrians. I'm guessing these won't come with ABS or mm wave collision detection emergency brakes; it's one of those items that is cheap to manufacture and install, but the IP and testing is expensive.
• ashtonkem 6y ago
  France has had a long tradition of these "Voiture sans permis" (car without permit), which usually had a limit on weight and power. They were popular among teenagers learning to drive, poorer residents who couldn't afford larger cars, and unfortunately occasionally drunks who couldn't qualify for a regular license. In fact, most of Europe for a long time had multiple tiers of licenses for "regular" cars. It's my understanding that part of the popularity of the three wheeled Reliant Robin was caused by the fact that until 2001 you could drive it with a Motorcycle license, which I presume is much easier to get than a full car license. Also, I believe it was cheap.
• sarashawqy1 6y ago
  https://www.sexsex1.com/2020/09/blog-post_20.html https://www.sexsex1.com/2020/09/blog-post_20.html