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I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van 3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote 4) A friend who moved home to Australia because of how the US is handling the virus. 5) A friend who is going month to month in different cities, staying in Airbnbs, and still paying less for housing then his one bedroom in the bay area 6) A friend who moved to Austin to live with her sister What I am seeing here is very clear also. The SIP order has removed many of the greatest parts of SF, the food, the bars, the culture, the density to be able to go anywhere and see your friends easily, and whats left are many of the problems that the city has, trash, homelessness, and exorbitant housing prices.

virginieAFP 6y ago
HI! I'm the correspondent for AFP a global news agency, and I'm looking for to speak with people leaving San Francisco because of pandemic/remote work. Can i talk to you?
ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
Your friends are how representative of SF people? 1. Going on a road trip right now is a very bad idea 2. Most normal people don't have the ability (I guess if you're a high performer in tech?) to move to another high income English speaking country. 3. Moving to Santa Cruz is a joke if you're worried about cost of living. 4. Same with Austin.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >Your friends are how representative of SF people? OP didn't say that. They said that their anecdotal experience matches the argument in the article. Somehow you decided not only to argue with OP on this point, but also to argue about the way OP's roommates and friends decided to handle remote work (from taking a road-trip to moving back home to Australia). What's your reasoning for that?
- willio58 6y ago
  Why is going on a road trip a bad idea? I mean bring a mask, only shop weekly and keep food refrigerated, and keep social distance.
  - yellow_postit 6y ago
    I can imagine the argument is that unless you're periodically getting tested to you have a likelihood of spreading if asymptomatic over a broader geographic area while traveling. That said, I personally think now is a great time to get out into nature and travel more locally pending the regulations in your area(s).
  - untog 6y ago
    All of those things reduce risk, they do not remove it. And given that you can be asymptomatic for two weeks there’s a very real danger of spreading the virus. And there isn’t really a good reason to be doing it right now other than “I want to” so it’s not difficult to see it as a selfish act. (the friend travelling from city to city and staying in Airbnbs sounds considerably worse to me, though)
    - babesh 6y ago
      Probably not that bad since, with the advent of masks and social distancing, supposedly ~95% of cases are NOT from community spread. Most of the spread is from dense living situations and meeting with friends and family without masks when you shouldn't.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      It’s no more selfish than those going to pickup takeout food from different restaurants multiple times a week. If you’re going to chide a van camper, chide every single person you see outside not having all of their groceries and supplies delivered to their doorstep.
  - roadtripwasfun 6y ago
    My van had a back-end that was size approprate to fit a YETI brand cooler (Tundra 45) between the raised platform in the back of the van and the seat backs so I could get in and out of it easily while having it to write on or use my laptop computer on (it doubled as a desk when I felt like sitting indian style on the floor of my van). This was essential and I could rely on fresh fruit all the time kept in the back of my van along with well various other fresh produce.
- onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
  I dunno about his friends, but my building is currently at close to 60% vacant. 300 units...
vecinu 6y ago
Accurate experience, I have some similar examples as well. I am still considering if I should be like your friend #4 and go back to eastern Canada to wait out this disastrous response in the US. If only winter wasn't coming, I would have probably already left but my lease is only ending at the end of September.
trhway 6y ago
>2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van similar on Peninsula - a neighbor couple, renters, he is at google, went back to their country for 6 month. Upon coming back they're planning to buy a house here.
justchilly 6y ago
I've seen the same. The misconception is that people are leaving because the housing is too expensive and its not worth it anymore. Almost everybody I know that moved out had no problem affording housing (high earners / home owners / rent controlled). People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. About half of the tech people I know have moved out. Of those about half have left permanently, the other half are on the fence depending on long term WFH ability / if the city is able to get the quality of life issues under control / plus a lot of complaints about taxes. -In my 6 unit building in Nob Hill (5 of which are owner occupied). 3 units including myself have moved out permanently. 1x to Austin. 1x to Palm Springs. 1x to East Bay. -5 of my 6 best friends in rent controlled units have moved out. Mostly to other cities in California. In 10 years living in SF I've never seen people willingly give up rent controlled units like this. -Other friends that were looking to move to SF that have cancelled those plans. In particular employees at large companies that were impacted by layoffs (Uber).
- virginieAFP 6y ago
  HI! I'm the correspondent for AFP a global news agency, and I'm looking for to speak with people leaving San Francisco because of pandemic/remote work. Did you already moved? Do you know other person in the process? Can I talk to you?
- rtlfe 6y ago
  > People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. What are these quality of life issues, and how have other cities avoided them?
  - CoolGuySteve 6y ago
    They haven’t, NYC is also boring now. With unemployment rising and poor benefits, civil unrest, and shitty containment policies; I’m thinking about riding the rest of this out back in Canada so we don’t get robbed/assaulted.
blincoln 6y ago
FWIW, it seems similar in the Seattle area. Lots of people moving out of the big cities. I assume it's a combination of being able to work from home and people no longer being able to afford their incredibly expensive in-city homes due to furloughs and layoffs.
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  Except home prices are rocketing up rather than down ATM. If people are moving out, you’d think more of them would be selling their houses.
  - jonahbenton 6y ago
    Mortgage interest rates at all-all-all time lows. It's a little ridiculous to say that given that mortgages are, say, a 50 year old product. All time not very long. But debt and interest have been with us for thousands of years and it is likely that there has never been such low cost liquidity for durable assets (houses) as there is now. When you think about why THAT is, it should make you worried to buy that house.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
      Why is it?
      - jonahbenton 6y ago
        To be blunt- the other side of the deal is REALLY INTERESTED in having a party committed to 30 years of payments on a valuation that, they realize, almost certainly has to drop. Mortgage interest could be 0.5% and lenders would...probably still make the deal.
        nemo44x 6y ago
        They’ve really been doing well selling refinancing for quite awhile now too. The interest rate is nearly immaterial to the closing costs, Selling points, PMI, etc.
john_moscow 6y ago
Interestingly this seems to only cover people who don't have kids. Do you think people with kids are stuck in SF, or have they moved out much earlier?
- serbrech 6y ago
  we have a kid, and are moving, for what it's worth. If you are in the bay just because of work, and you have a kid, that means your kid is not seeing family very much due to travel restrictions and the overall covid situation. So rather than it being a blocker, it's really an extra incentive to move.
- captaincole 6y ago
  Good question. The two considerations I would say here are 1) Rent vs own - everyone i know in the own category is staying for now, and actually exhibiting the opposite tendencies and digging in for the long haul 2) School is now officially going full remote. This was a unknown for many families and now we will see what they choose to do.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    The only thing keeping me in the Bay Area right now is my mortgage. I envy you renters who can just leave at the end of your leases! With work from home and school from home, there is no reason to physically stay in the Bay Area. We might as well move to an RV in the Nevada desert. $200/acre and I get as much benefit (nothing) from zero income tax there as I do in CA at 10%.
- analog31 6y ago
  Oddly enough a traditional risk of moving with kids is the "lost year" due to the disruption of changing school districts. But this year is going to be lost anyway, and a 100% certainty is no longer a risk. And if school is going to be online anyway, then they could stay plugged into the old district until they get fully plugged into the new one.
  - nsnick 6y ago
htormey 6y ago
I manage a team of 10 people in San Francisco and confirm a similar pattern. 8 of them have moved out of their SF apartments either to move somewhere else more spacious or in with their parents outside of the Bay Area. Other people I know at my company have renegotiated rents. Most but not all are open to the idea of moving back depending on how things play out over the next 6-12 months. I think their is still a big career advantage to being in the Bay Area due to the big tech companies having offices here and face time being important for career advancement. I would expect somewhat of a swing back away from remote work when we get a vaccine. That being said, I think the wild card is city/state taxes in the aftermath of all this.
- eastbayjake 6y ago
  > I would expect somewhat of a swing back away from remote work when we get a vaccine. I think a lot of people will move back to where offices are located, but I'm wondering if we'll see an increase in people who fly in for a few days every few weeks for meetings then jet back home to a cheaper part of the country. Relationships are hugely important -- and deep relationships are almost always only built in-person -- but we're overselling how much facetime you get in a full week vs. a very impactful 2-3 day trip with time for lunch/drinks etc.
  - htormey 6y ago
    Yeah I could totally see that. It’s a conversation me and my wife have been having a lot lately. I’m thinking about moving out of SF myself. Probably Oregon or Washington but we haven’t made any decisions yet. We want to see how the world looks after the elections in November.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I'm not sure why you're getting downvotes. That's basically what I do during normal times. I actually live near a big office but I mostly meet with people elsewhere.
  - qudat 6y ago
    These newly remote companies have no idea how difficult it is to be fully distributed. The company I work for have been doing it for years and we’re still dealing with growing pains. You lose a lot when all you do is Zoom with coworkers.
baron816 6y ago
Alternate experience: I just moved into SF a week ago from elsewhere in the Bay. I was able to get a large, modern, luxury 1BR in a decent location for under $3K + almost a 1 month concession and no deposit. Being a single, young(ish) guy, it still makes sense to be in a city. I have more space than I need now, and I can afford the rent. Maybe things aren’t that nice right now, but I’m hoping they’ll get back to semi-normality in a few months. Plus, I’m still banking on there being more opportunity to level up in my career much more here.
- DataWorker 6y ago
  What’s the decent location? Even without parking rent that seems extremely low for sf. Also luxury?
  - vmception 6y ago
    Rent is extremely low in SF compared to what it a year ago. 9-25% off. Yeah, wide range. Luxury buildings are the primary ones offering more 1-2 month concessions, which really means rent has dropped another 18% than what is listed. And this is without evictions on tenants, or foreclosures on homeowners. Both of which can't really get started until November or January due to local regulations and now backlog. This is with purely voluntary departures.
- fiblye 6y ago
  > I was able to get a large, modern, luxury 1BR in a decent location for under $3K This sounds like a joke about just how absurd SF rents are.
  - verst 6y ago
    Assuming the 1BR is 700+ sqft and the location is something like SOMA or Hayes Valley this would be a good deal. Yes SF rents are generally insane.
    - baron816 6y ago
paxys 6y ago
About half of the young-ish employees at my company left SF (temporarily) to move back in with family. The company has also offered to make people permanently remote, but very few (less than 10 out of many hundreds) have taken up that offer so far. IMO it is too early to judge the permanent impact of this to the city.
- ckdarby 6y ago
  There are probably more people but few want to discuss it out of fear about local market cost readjustment.
megaframe 6y ago
Similar observation, on my tiny stretch of street I've seen 7 moving trucks since SIP started, far more than I've ever seen. I get it, If you just moved or been here 1-2yr I'd leave too, the costs would make no sense. I'm right on the fence. I've been at my current place ~6 years, prices have just started to get to about what I'm paying (rent controlled). I'm hoping it drops some more so I can negotiate a reduction. ...with permanent WFH I too want to leave, head to Europe (I'm a citizen). With travel restrictions in place, and my employer saying they'd adjust my pay to reflect local cost of living I'm not sure what would be best.
- bhickey 6y ago
  > and my employer saying they'd adjust my pay to reflect local cost of living I'm not sure what would be best. This "local cost of living" and "regional market" argument is a farce. Remote workers are competing in a global market by definition. They might as well be honest and say, "we think we can get away with paying you less."
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    > Remote workers are competing in a global market by definition. Yeah, exactly. The prices on that global market are miles away of the prices local to Silicon Valley.
  - megaframe 6y ago
    I agree, and argued as much. Going so far as ask what their policy would be if I rent a cheep room, return every few months, and pay local taxes. My argument being that If I remain local but because of a long commute and choose to be full time remote, how would they really know the difference.
- ipqk 6y ago
  Having worked remotely in central Europe for an SF-based company, the hours really kind of suck.
  - ghaff 6y ago
fortran77 6y ago
And what does SF have for people who don't care about the "bars and culture?" Not much. I spend a half the year in my Sunnyvale, CA home. I never go to SF to see shows, concerts, etc. Several times a year, when I'm in the U.S., I'll put together a trip to NY, LA, etc, to see several events over a long weekend. And/or go to Tanglewood, Monterey Jazz, Cabrillo music festivals. People who visit me are shocked to learn that I live 40 miles from SF and never go there. (Especially because I'm a gay man.) SF really needs to build more housing, and get the homelessness and crime problem under control. Pre-pandemic, SF had 2.5x the violent crime rate of NYC. (That may be different now that crime has spiked in NY.)
- dmode 6y ago
  There is no way SF had 2.5x violent crime. SF is exceptionally safe when it comes to violent crime, with only ~40 homicides last year
  - annexrichmond 6y ago
    To be fair, he said crime rate
  - fortran77 6y ago
    https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+rate+San+Francisco+%2F+crime+rate+New+York+City https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+rate+San+Francis... The sources of the data is the FBI "UCR" rates. Why do you believe the FBI is not accurate? That's an odd claim. https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/ https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/
- robotburrito 6y ago
  If you are into the outdoors and being an active person it is pretty amazing to live here. The cycling here is quite possibly the best in the world and can be accessed without a car within minutes.
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
My friend lives in a nice apartment in Berkely and she decided to move to a different apartment in the building (to get a balcony and no neighbors above). The rent will be 25% cheaper than her current rent for essentially the same unit.
dongvsascript 6y ago
i have an honest question here. i haven't lived in sf -just visited. i have however been to most states and about 40 countries for comparison. food - most of what i saw was not good food. hipsterish overpriced food made by chefs trying to show off by putting a twist on dishes -not to be good, just to be different or weird. tiny portions, not tasting above average, on a huge plate. all presentation, not actual taste. culture: there is no culture. culture was when i lived in versailles. sf is all snooty people with no content, trying to show off. culture is down to earth, with class. bars -there are very few attractive girls at bars, or at offices, or even on the street, compared to just about anywhere in the world. and if that's not why you go to bars, i have to ask -you'd enjoy going to bars with mostly men? because that's cool too -once in a rare while. density is poor in sf. in good cities, you can walk where you want in a few minutes. sf is uber heaven. i've lived in cities with amicable density - without a car, and maybe grabbing a cab once a month. sf ain't it. the weather's not bad, a little windy. and the ocean is close by. housing prices are being kept artificially high by sf itself -not letting people build housing. so i can't see anything about sf that'd make people want to live there other than higher salaries. and the first chance they have to earn that salary elsewhere or remote, they jump on it. so i think that's what's happening now. nothing to do with covid directly -just people who would never live there in the 1st place if it wasn't for the job, leaving as soon as the job lets them. i think all this analysis of what people are doing and why weirdly avoids the very simple explanation -everyone's just doing what work lets them do. it's entirely dictated by employers.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mrgordon 6y ago
  If you think San Francisco has poor quality food, you clearly haven’t spent much time there (as you admit) or you don’t have very discerning taste. California grows the majority of the country’s produce and most everyone else is getting the same ingredients a few days later. Farm to table is the standard instead of something that starts at $25/plate like in most US cities The city could be more dense in some areas but it’s far more walkable than almost any US city outside of NY. Maybe go to the Mission next time and show me how LA, Miami, etc. are more walkable after
roadtripwasfun 6y ago
> 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van I tried it for 6 months. It was easy because I had a sister who lived in NYC for a time and essentially I could wash up there and not have to pay outrageous campground prices for temporary stays to seek a shower when needed. I stayed on the street there for 6 weeks mostly around Flatbush area and in Brooklyn elsewhere but also on the street in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. This was the most fun part of the trip. It was really a trip (I wasnt on drugs by the way). I saw a rocker getting into a cab with a woman hanging on him and he had to like push her away "no baby - it's over" right in front of me as he got into the cab. She was hot. It was a deeply personal thing that I shouldn't be reporting on but synchronicity somehow drew me to that event. I was there seeing it go down and I wished I could haved helped her. I couldn't buy her food because I lived in a van, and that story would have to come out in the first 5 minutes or I'd be a sleezebag who didn't explain to women what his deal was yet the deal wasn't completely unworkable. She could have had her own place and have been interested in me intellectually for long enough for it to be fun, and maybe a relationship could have blossumed out of that. Instead I got back in my van and lived a normal life as a vandweller who was afraid to hit on her. She deserved something. These kinds of antedotes came up throughout the van ride out west (to San Francisco) too and basically I had fun but was stuck too often in situations where I needed to fess up to being a van dweller around attractive women in a way that I couldn't cover myself for doing well back then due to societal norms not having van dwelling being real back then. In today's world it might be OK. I'd talk about tiny houses first and how Twitter helped make them become popular and how a van is almost the same thing underneigth. It's just better looking to be honest (once you have the inside paneled). You need a rising platform (in the back) up on stilts like made of wood with storage space underneath giving you just the right about of headroom with a futon installed above it. A real carpender helped me and it was easy relative to fancy stuff that people do with RVS. You need to really have a second battery with an alternator cut-off solenoid in it so that the second battery charges off of the first and automatically ensures it cannot drain the first if you forget about it. This enables you to run 4 or 5 fans in the back that are mounted above if you can and basically that's it. Enjoy your rig. Civic places I hung out: - Portland Oregon - Downtown Oakland - SF proper (Haight parking is possible) - Colorado (hotel stay needed - it was too cold sometimes) - Las Vegas (hotel stay needed - the other temperature extreme) - Chicago - and many other places along the way
tempsy 6y ago
Welp the nail in the coffin will be Uber and Lyft cutting services in CA now.
gravypod 6y ago
> What I am seeing here is very clear also. The SIP order has removed many of the greatest parts of SF, the food, the bars, the culture, the density to be able to go anywhere and see your friends easily, and whats left are many of the problems that the city has, trash, homelessness, and exorbitant housing prices. For an introvert who hates these sorts of things, and wants to own a house, I'm hoping companies stay this way and people become more open to remote work. I feel no benifit from living in NYC or SF but I need to be close to these places for work. I hope that if things continue o can buy a house in and just work from home. Never needing to worry about commuting again.
diogenescynic 6y ago
Also, all the H-1B and L-1 visa recipients who are not here since the Trump admin has been actively working against them.
- hiram112 6y ago
  Promises made, promises kept.
mathattack 6y ago
Once upon a time SF was expensive, but affordable enough for a bunch of non-tech folks right out of college to room together. Most of tech was down South so you had to want to be in the city. If the city reverts to a quirky countercultural moderately overpriced spot, minus some of the tech workers, it’s not the end of the world. And the rest of the US will benefit from more dispersed tech brainpower.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
burlesona 6y ago
My family and I are in group 5. We had a neat, but very small, apartment in SF. It was great when I was going to the office daily and my kids were in school or at the parks / Cal Academy / etc. With all of us at home and me trying to work... not so much. It was sad leaving, but my productivity is massively up. Right now we’re enjoying seeing other parts of the west coast, while playing the waiting game. I want to know how much of a pay cut I’d face if I moved permanently (company hasn’t said yet), and I’m also nervous about the winter coming up and how different regions will handle what I’m afraid will be an inevitable super-surge.
ookblah 6y ago
exact same thing i am seeing in nyc. also moved away for a few months and am still paying less staying in hotels and what not lol.
williesleg 6y ago
The good news is the shit hole flee crew will bring their voting habits with them and turn the next place into a shit hole too! w00t!
racl101 6y ago
Don't forget the poop on the streets.
cactus2093 6y ago
I am going to go out on a limb and guess - are you in your early to mid twenties? Just guessing based on some of your examples. I'm not at all trying to dismiss the perspective of young people, but I think these behaviors are very strongly correlated with age and/or life stage. I'm a bit older than that in my thirties, and I haven't really observed this effect yet among my peer group. A lot of people are leaving temporarily, one person moved to Marin (but that's where their family is and I think they may have done that anyway), another friend was already planning a cross-country move and just did it a little earlier due to covid. On the other hand, looking at a lot of my younger friends and coworkers over the past few years, it feels like maybe a third to half of them always ended up leaving the city after a few years, and this was before covid. I saw someone tweet this about NY, and it's my best guess about the present situation too - that it's likely most of the people leaving permanently due to the pandemic were going to leave the city in the next 3-5 years anyway. People have been moving to New York and then leaving after a few years for decades if not centuries (and writing nostalgic essays about doing so so often it has become a whole genre). And now that SF is such a hub for tech opportunities, in the same way that NY has always been for many different industries, I think this is just as true here as well.
- abakker 6y ago
  In my early 30s here. All my friends have left, and now we are doing so, too. You are right, IMO. Most of those friends are in tech and plan to move back eventually, but are hoping to score better deals on rent then. For now they live in the mountains and can do some fun solo activities for the next year. For us, we have wanted to leave for several years, but the ability to WFH for my wife actually makes it possible now. More space, owning vs renting, and more local friends elsewhere all are big drivers.
  - dajohnson89 6y ago
    How are you able to make more local friends in a less dense location?
    - abakker 6y ago
geebee 6y ago
3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote Yeah? I've lived in SF and Santa Cruz. The quality of surf in Santa Cruz is vastly better, but the crowds are intense and at times pretty angry. I found it was less about localism, more about the anger of a large number of often very talented surfers competing for a scarce resource. I got longer, better rides in SC than I typically did in SF (by a 20-1 margin), but I'd have to maneuver for an hour to get priority for a few rides. They were glorious waves, though. Up here in SF, I tend to spread out on the beach break and find an uncrowded corner. Every thing has to line up just right to get a long, open, peeling wave out of a sand bar at OB or nearby beaches - whereas SC beaches (steamer lane, the point) generate this stuff pretty routinely. But that's why it gets so edgy in SC. Everyone's in there, you finally get into position, it's your moment, you get maybe two of these every hour, and... someone paddles through the peak. Someone drops in. Even worse, that a someone is you, and you'll get barked at, at best (and while maybe the guy's being a dick about it, you really did fuck up). It's just too edgy, just boils over too much for my tastes. I know people say "well, don't do those things", but you'd be surprised how difficult that is. How do you know if you're deepest on a wave that breaks both directions? Did you drop in, or did someone snake? If you sit too far out, you'll miss the wave, and if you make it, there will be a sea of people you have to dodge. If you sit too far in, you may be staring down the barrel of a dozen surfers all taking off on the peak - and they'll either run you over, buzz you, or kick out of the wave and be really pissed that you ruined the ride that they spent the last 30 minutes getting ready for. Or, if someone does that to you, you kick out (better that than run the guy over), and now you're now caught inside and pissing off the next guy. I surf regularly, and I'd much rather be in SF or Pacifica than in Santa Cruz. It's a trade off, though. If you want consistently high quality waves, SC does have more to offer.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Sounds like a "tragedy of the commons" scenario.
- sershe 6y ago
  Unrelated but it cracked me up... I do a bunch of outdoor stuff but really couldn't get into surfing (and downhill skiing) because you have to wait/jostle with people/paddle forever/wait some more until you finally get 1 minute of enjoyment (or more like 10 seconds when you are starting out with surfing). I thought it was the beginner problem because the places where I can be are so few, and I suck at catching waves... so if I only practiced it would all be long rides with minimal downtime. I figured I'd never get around to actually do it, and it turns out I didn't make a mistake :) The worst you have to deal with in climbing is getting up super early so you could be the first on some popular route :)
kgin 6y ago
Sounds like NYC now as well. All the hard parts without the positive things that made living there worth it.

virginieAFP 6y ago

HI! I'm the correspondent for AFP a global news agency, and I'm looking for to speak with people leaving San Francisco because of pandemic/remote work. Can i talk to you?

ZanyProgrammer 6y ago

Your friends are how representative of SF people? 1. Going on a road trip right now is a very bad idea 2. Most normal people don't have the ability (I guess if you're a high performer in tech?) to move to another high income English speaking country. 3. Moving to Santa Cruz is a joke if you're worried about cost of living. 4. Same with Austin.

macspoofing 6y ago
>Your friends are how representative of SF people? OP didn't say that. They said that their anecdotal experience matches the argument in the article. Somehow you decided not only to argue with OP on this point, but also to argue about the way OP's roommates and friends decided to handle remote work (from taking a road-trip to moving back home to Australia). What's your reasoning for that?
willio58 6y ago
Why is going on a road trip a bad idea? I mean bring a mask, only shop weekly and keep food refrigerated, and keep social distance.
- yellow_postit 6y ago
  I can imagine the argument is that unless you're periodically getting tested to you have a likelihood of spreading if asymptomatic over a broader geographic area while traveling. That said, I personally think now is a great time to get out into nature and travel more locally pending the regulations in your area(s).
- untog 6y ago
  All of those things reduce risk, they do not remove it. And given that you can be asymptomatic for two weeks there’s a very real danger of spreading the virus. And there isn’t really a good reason to be doing it right now other than “I want to” so it’s not difficult to see it as a selfish act. (the friend travelling from city to city and staying in Airbnbs sounds considerably worse to me, though)
  - babesh 6y ago
    Probably not that bad since, with the advent of masks and social distancing, supposedly ~95% of cases are NOT from community spread. Most of the spread is from dense living situations and meeting with friends and family without masks when you shouldn't.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    It’s no more selfish than those going to pickup takeout food from different restaurants multiple times a week. If you’re going to chide a van camper, chide every single person you see outside not having all of their groceries and supplies delivered to their doorstep.
- roadtripwasfun 6y ago
  My van had a back-end that was size approprate to fit a YETI brand cooler (Tundra 45) between the raised platform in the back of the van and the seat backs so I could get in and out of it easily while having it to write on or use my laptop computer on (it doubled as a desk when I felt like sitting indian style on the floor of my van). This was essential and I could rely on fresh fruit all the time kept in the back of my van along with well various other fresh produce.
onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
I dunno about his friends, but my building is currently at close to 60% vacant. 300 units...

vecinu 6y ago

Accurate experience, I have some similar examples as well. I am still considering if I should be like your friend #4 and go back to eastern Canada to wait out this disastrous response in the US. If only winter wasn't coming, I would have probably already left but my lease is only ending at the end of September.

trhway 6y ago

>2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van similar on Peninsula - a neighbor couple, renters, he is at google, went back to their country for 6 month. Upon coming back they're planning to buy a house here.

justchilly 6y ago

I've seen the same. The misconception is that people are leaving because the housing is too expensive and its not worth it anymore. Almost everybody I know that moved out had no problem affording housing (high earners / home owners / rent controlled). People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. About half of the tech people I know have moved out. Of those about half have left permanently, the other half are on the fence depending on long term WFH ability / if the city is able to get the quality of life issues under control / plus a lot of complaints about taxes. -In my 6 unit building in Nob Hill (5 of which are owner occupied). 3 units including myself have moved out permanently. 1x to Austin. 1x to Palm Springs. 1x to East Bay. -5 of my 6 best friends in rent controlled units have moved out. Mostly to other cities in California. In 10 years living in SF I've never seen people willingly give up rent controlled units like this. -Other friends that were looking to move to SF that have cancelled those plans. In particular employees at large companies that were impacted by layoffs (Uber).

virginieAFP 6y ago
HI! I'm the correspondent for AFP a global news agency, and I'm looking for to speak with people leaving San Francisco because of pandemic/remote work. Did you already moved? Do you know other person in the process? Can I talk to you?
rtlfe 6y ago
> People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. What are these quality of life issues, and how have other cities avoided them?
- CoolGuySteve 6y ago
  They haven’t, NYC is also boring now. With unemployment rising and poor benefits, civil unrest, and shitty containment policies; I’m thinking about riding the rest of this out back in Canada so we don’t get robbed/assaulted.

blincoln 6y ago

FWIW, it seems similar in the Seattle area. Lots of people moving out of the big cities. I assume it's a combination of being able to work from home and people no longer being able to afford their incredibly expensive in-city homes due to furloughs and layoffs.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago
Except home prices are rocketing up rather than down ATM. If people are moving out, you’d think more of them would be selling their houses.
- jonahbenton 6y ago
  Mortgage interest rates at all-all-all time lows. It's a little ridiculous to say that given that mortgages are, say, a 50 year old product. All time not very long. But debt and interest have been with us for thousands of years and it is likely that there has never been such low cost liquidity for durable assets (houses) as there is now. When you think about why THAT is, it should make you worried to buy that house.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 6y ago
    Why is it?
    - jonahbenton 6y ago
      To be blunt- the other side of the deal is REALLY INTERESTED in having a party committed to 30 years of payments on a valuation that, they realize, almost certainly has to drop. Mortgage interest could be 0.5% and lenders would...probably still make the deal.
      - nemo44x 6y ago
        They’ve really been doing well selling refinancing for quite awhile now too. The interest rate is nearly immaterial to the closing costs, Selling points, PMI, etc.

john_moscow 6y ago

Interestingly this seems to only cover people who don't have kids. Do you think people with kids are stuck in SF, or have they moved out much earlier?

serbrech 6y ago
we have a kid, and are moving, for what it's worth. If you are in the bay just because of work, and you have a kid, that means your kid is not seeing family very much due to travel restrictions and the overall covid situation. So rather than it being a blocker, it's really an extra incentive to move.
captaincole 6y ago
Good question. The two considerations I would say here are 1) Rent vs own - everyone i know in the own category is staying for now, and actually exhibiting the opposite tendencies and digging in for the long haul 2) School is now officially going full remote. This was a unknown for many families and now we will see what they choose to do.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  The only thing keeping me in the Bay Area right now is my mortgage. I envy you renters who can just leave at the end of your leases! With work from home and school from home, there is no reason to physically stay in the Bay Area. We might as well move to an RV in the Nevada desert. $200/acre and I get as much benefit (nothing) from zero income tax there as I do in CA at 10%.
analog31 6y ago
Oddly enough a traditional risk of moving with kids is the "lost year" due to the disruption of changing school districts. But this year is going to be lost anyway, and a 100% certainty is no longer a risk. And if school is going to be online anyway, then they could stay plugged into the old district until they get fully plugged into the new one.
- nsnick 6y ago

htormey 6y ago

I manage a team of 10 people in San Francisco and confirm a similar pattern. 8 of them have moved out of their SF apartments either to move somewhere else more spacious or in with their parents outside of the Bay Area. Other people I know at my company have renegotiated rents. Most but not all are open to the idea of moving back depending on how things play out over the next 6-12 months. I think their is still a big career advantage to being in the Bay Area due to the big tech companies having offices here and face time being important for career advancement. I would expect somewhat of a swing back away from remote work when we get a vaccine. That being said, I think the wild card is city/state taxes in the aftermath of all this.

eastbayjake 6y ago
> I would expect somewhat of a swing back away from remote work when we get a vaccine. I think a lot of people will move back to where offices are located, but I'm wondering if we'll see an increase in people who fly in for a few days every few weeks for meetings then jet back home to a cheaper part of the country. Relationships are hugely important -- and deep relationships are almost always only built in-person -- but we're overselling how much facetime you get in a full week vs. a very impactful 2-3 day trip with time for lunch/drinks etc.
- htormey 6y ago
  Yeah I could totally see that. It’s a conversation me and my wife have been having a lot lately. I’m thinking about moving out of SF myself. Probably Oregon or Washington but we haven’t made any decisions yet. We want to see how the world looks after the elections in November.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you're getting downvotes. That's basically what I do during normal times. I actually live near a big office but I mostly meet with people elsewhere.
- qudat 6y ago
  These newly remote companies have no idea how difficult it is to be fully distributed. The company I work for have been doing it for years and we’re still dealing with growing pains. You lose a lot when all you do is Zoom with coworkers.

baron816 6y ago

Alternate experience: I just moved into SF a week ago from elsewhere in the Bay. I was able to get a large, modern, luxury 1BR in a decent location for under $3K + almost a 1 month concession and no deposit. Being a single, young(ish) guy, it still makes sense to be in a city. I have more space than I need now, and I can afford the rent. Maybe things aren’t that nice right now, but I’m hoping they’ll get back to semi-normality in a few months. Plus, I’m still banking on there being more opportunity to level up in my career much more here.

DataWorker 6y ago
What’s the decent location? Even without parking rent that seems extremely low for sf. Also luxury?
- vmception 6y ago
  Rent is extremely low in SF compared to what it a year ago. 9-25% off. Yeah, wide range. Luxury buildings are the primary ones offering more 1-2 month concessions, which really means rent has dropped another 18% than what is listed. And this is without evictions on tenants, or foreclosures on homeowners. Both of which can't really get started until November or January due to local regulations and now backlog. This is with purely voluntary departures.
fiblye 6y ago
> I was able to get a large, modern, luxury 1BR in a decent location for under $3K This sounds like a joke about just how absurd SF rents are.
- verst 6y ago
  Assuming the 1BR is 700+ sqft and the location is something like SOMA or Hayes Valley this would be a good deal. Yes SF rents are generally insane.
  - baron816 6y ago

paxys 6y ago

About half of the young-ish employees at my company left SF (temporarily) to move back in with family. The company has also offered to make people permanently remote, but very few (less than 10 out of many hundreds) have taken up that offer so far. IMO it is too early to judge the permanent impact of this to the city.

ckdarby 6y ago
There are probably more people but few want to discuss it out of fear about local market cost readjustment.

megaframe 6y ago

Similar observation, on my tiny stretch of street I've seen 7 moving trucks since SIP started, far more than I've ever seen. I get it, If you just moved or been here 1-2yr I'd leave too, the costs would make no sense. I'm right on the fence. I've been at my current place ~6 years, prices have just started to get to about what I'm paying (rent controlled). I'm hoping it drops some more so I can negotiate a reduction. ...with permanent WFH I too want to leave, head to Europe (I'm a citizen). With travel restrictions in place, and my employer saying they'd adjust my pay to reflect local cost of living I'm not sure what would be best.

bhickey 6y ago
> and my employer saying they'd adjust my pay to reflect local cost of living I'm not sure what would be best. This "local cost of living" and "regional market" argument is a farce. Remote workers are competing in a global market by definition. They might as well be honest and say, "we think we can get away with paying you less."
- dahfizz 6y ago
  > Remote workers are competing in a global market by definition. Yeah, exactly. The prices on that global market are miles away of the prices local to Silicon Valley.
- megaframe 6y ago
  I agree, and argued as much. Going so far as ask what their policy would be if I rent a cheep room, return every few months, and pay local taxes. My argument being that If I remain local but because of a long commute and choose to be full time remote, how would they really know the difference.
ipqk 6y ago
Having worked remotely in central Europe for an SF-based company, the hours really kind of suck.
- ghaff 6y ago

fortran77 6y ago

And what does SF have for people who don't care about the "bars and culture?" Not much. I spend a half the year in my Sunnyvale, CA home. I never go to SF to see shows, concerts, etc. Several times a year, when I'm in the U.S., I'll put together a trip to NY, LA, etc, to see several events over a long weekend. And/or go to Tanglewood, Monterey Jazz, Cabrillo music festivals. People who visit me are shocked to learn that I live 40 miles from SF and never go there. (Especially because I'm a gay man.) SF really needs to build more housing, and get the homelessness and crime problem under control. Pre-pandemic, SF had 2.5x the violent crime rate of NYC. (That may be different now that crime has spiked in NY.)

dmode 6y ago
There is no way SF had 2.5x violent crime. SF is exceptionally safe when it comes to violent crime, with only ~40 homicides last year
- annexrichmond 6y ago
  To be fair, he said crime rate
- fortran77 6y ago
  https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+rate+San+Francisco+%2F+crime+rate+New+York+City https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=crime+rate+San+Francis... The sources of the data is the FBI "UCR" rates. Why do you believe the FBI is not accurate? That's an odd claim. https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/ https://crime-data-explorer.fr.cloud.gov/
robotburrito 6y ago
If you are into the outdoors and being an active person it is pretty amazing to live here. The cycling here is quite possibly the best in the world and can be accessed without a car within minutes.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

My friend lives in a nice apartment in Berkely and she decided to move to a different apartment in the building (to get a balcony and no neighbors above). The rent will be 25% cheaper than her current rent for essentially the same unit.

dongvsascript 6y ago

i have an honest question here. i haven't lived in sf -just visited. i have however been to most states and about 40 countries for comparison. food - most of what i saw was not good food. hipsterish overpriced food made by chefs trying to show off by putting a twist on dishes -not to be good, just to be different or weird. tiny portions, not tasting above average, on a huge plate. all presentation, not actual taste. culture: there is no culture. culture was when i lived in versailles. sf is all snooty people with no content, trying to show off. culture is down to earth, with class. bars -there are very few attractive girls at bars, or at offices, or even on the street, compared to just about anywhere in the world. and if that's not why you go to bars, i have to ask -you'd enjoy going to bars with mostly men? because that's cool too -once in a rare while. density is poor in sf. in good cities, you can walk where you want in a few minutes. sf is uber heaven. i've lived in cities with amicable density - without a car, and maybe grabbing a cab once a month. sf ain't it. the weather's not bad, a little windy. and the ocean is close by. housing prices are being kept artificially high by sf itself -not letting people build housing. so i can't see anything about sf that'd make people want to live there other than higher salaries. and the first chance they have to earn that salary elsewhere or remote, they jump on it. so i think that's what's happening now. nothing to do with covid directly -just people who would never live there in the 1st place if it wasn't for the job, leaving as soon as the job lets them. i think all this analysis of what people are doing and why weirdly avoids the very simple explanation -everyone's just doing what work lets them do. it's entirely dictated by employers.

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mrgordon 6y ago
If you think San Francisco has poor quality food, you clearly haven’t spent much time there (as you admit) or you don’t have very discerning taste. California grows the majority of the country’s produce and most everyone else is getting the same ingredients a few days later. Farm to table is the standard instead of something that starts at $25/plate like in most US cities The city could be more dense in some areas but it’s far more walkable than almost any US city outside of NY. Maybe go to the Mission next time and show me how LA, Miami, etc. are more walkable after

roadtripwasfun 6y ago

> 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a 6 month road trip in a camper van I tried it for 6 months. It was easy because I had a sister who lived in NYC for a time and essentially I could wash up there and not have to pay outrageous campground prices for temporary stays to seek a shower when needed. I stayed on the street there for 6 weeks mostly around Flatbush area and in Brooklyn elsewhere but also on the street in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. This was the most fun part of the trip. It was really a trip (I wasnt on drugs by the way). I saw a rocker getting into a cab with a woman hanging on him and he had to like push her away "no baby - it's over" right in front of me as he got into the cab. She was hot. It was a deeply personal thing that I shouldn't be reporting on but synchronicity somehow drew me to that event. I was there seeing it go down and I wished I could haved helped her. I couldn't buy her food because I lived in a van, and that story would have to come out in the first 5 minutes or I'd be a sleezebag who didn't explain to women what his deal was yet the deal wasn't completely unworkable. She could have had her own place and have been interested in me intellectually for long enough for it to be fun, and maybe a relationship could have blossumed out of that. Instead I got back in my van and lived a normal life as a vandweller who was afraid to hit on her. She deserved something. These kinds of antedotes came up throughout the van ride out west (to San Francisco) too and basically I had fun but was stuck too often in situations where I needed to fess up to being a van dweller around attractive women in a way that I couldn't cover myself for doing well back then due to societal norms not having van dwelling being real back then. In today's world it might be OK. I'd talk about tiny houses first and how Twitter helped make them become popular and how a van is almost the same thing underneigth. It's just better looking to be honest (once you have the inside paneled). You need a rising platform (in the back) up on stilts like made of wood with storage space underneath giving you just the right about of headroom with a futon installed above it. A real carpender helped me and it was easy relative to fancy stuff that people do with RVS. You need to really have a second battery with an alternator cut-off solenoid in it so that the second battery charges off of the first and automatically ensures it cannot drain the first if you forget about it. This enables you to run 4 or 5 fans in the back that are mounted above if you can and basically that's it. Enjoy your rig. Civic places I hung out: - Portland Oregon - Downtown Oakland - SF proper (Haight parking is possible) - Colorado (hotel stay needed - it was too cold sometimes) - Las Vegas (hotel stay needed - the other temperature extreme) - Chicago - and many other places along the way

tempsy 6y ago

Welp the nail in the coffin will be Uber and Lyft cutting services in CA now.

gravypod 6y ago

> What I am seeing here is very clear also. The SIP order has removed many of the greatest parts of SF, the food, the bars, the culture, the density to be able to go anywhere and see your friends easily, and whats left are many of the problems that the city has, trash, homelessness, and exorbitant housing prices. For an introvert who hates these sorts of things, and wants to own a house, I'm hoping companies stay this way and people become more open to remote work. I feel no benifit from living in NYC or SF but I need to be close to these places for work. I hope that if things continue o can buy a house in and just work from home. Never needing to worry about commuting again.

diogenescynic 6y ago

Also, all the H-1B and L-1 visa recipients who are not here since the Trump admin has been actively working against them.

hiram112 6y ago
Promises made, promises kept.

mathattack 6y ago

Once upon a time SF was expensive, but affordable enough for a bunch of non-tech folks right out of college to room together. Most of tech was down South so you had to want to be in the city. If the city reverts to a quirky countercultural moderately overpriced spot, minus some of the tech workers, it’s not the end of the world. And the rest of the US will benefit from more dispersed tech brainpower.

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burlesona 6y ago

My family and I are in group 5. We had a neat, but very small, apartment in SF. It was great when I was going to the office daily and my kids were in school or at the parks / Cal Academy / etc. With all of us at home and me trying to work... not so much. It was sad leaving, but my productivity is massively up. Right now we’re enjoying seeing other parts of the west coast, while playing the waiting game. I want to know how much of a pay cut I’d face if I moved permanently (company hasn’t said yet), and I’m also nervous about the winter coming up and how different regions will handle what I’m afraid will be an inevitable super-surge.

ookblah 6y ago

exact same thing i am seeing in nyc. also moved away for a few months and am still paying less staying in hotels and what not lol.

williesleg 6y ago

The good news is the shit hole flee crew will bring their voting habits with them and turn the next place into a shit hole too! w00t!

racl101 6y ago

Don't forget the poop on the streets.

cactus2093 6y ago

I am going to go out on a limb and guess - are you in your early to mid twenties? Just guessing based on some of your examples. I'm not at all trying to dismiss the perspective of young people, but I think these behaviors are very strongly correlated with age and/or life stage. I'm a bit older than that in my thirties, and I haven't really observed this effect yet among my peer group. A lot of people are leaving temporarily, one person moved to Marin (but that's where their family is and I think they may have done that anyway), another friend was already planning a cross-country move and just did it a little earlier due to covid. On the other hand, looking at a lot of my younger friends and coworkers over the past few years, it feels like maybe a third to half of them always ended up leaving the city after a few years, and this was before covid. I saw someone tweet this about NY, and it's my best guess about the present situation too - that it's likely most of the people leaving permanently due to the pandemic were going to leave the city in the next 3-5 years anyway. People have been moving to New York and then leaving after a few years for decades if not centuries (and writing nostalgic essays about doing so so often it has become a whole genre). And now that SF is such a hub for tech opportunities, in the same way that NY has always been for many different industries, I think this is just as true here as well.

abakker 6y ago
In my early 30s here. All my friends have left, and now we are doing so, too. You are right, IMO. Most of those friends are in tech and plan to move back eventually, but are hoping to score better deals on rent then. For now they live in the mountains and can do some fun solo activities for the next year. For us, we have wanted to leave for several years, but the ability to WFH for my wife actually makes it possible now. More space, owning vs renting, and more local friends elsewhere all are big drivers.
- dajohnson89 6y ago
  How are you able to make more local friends in a less dense location?
  - abakker 6y ago

geebee 6y ago

3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote Yeah? I've lived in SF and Santa Cruz. The quality of surf in Santa Cruz is vastly better, but the crowds are intense and at times pretty angry. I found it was less about localism, more about the anger of a large number of often very talented surfers competing for a scarce resource. I got longer, better rides in SC than I typically did in SF (by a 20-1 margin), but I'd have to maneuver for an hour to get priority for a few rides. They were glorious waves, though. Up here in SF, I tend to spread out on the beach break and find an uncrowded corner. Every thing has to line up just right to get a long, open, peeling wave out of a sand bar at OB or nearby beaches - whereas SC beaches (steamer lane, the point) generate this stuff pretty routinely. But that's why it gets so edgy in SC. Everyone's in there, you finally get into position, it's your moment, you get maybe two of these every hour, and... someone paddles through the peak. Someone drops in. Even worse, that a someone is you, and you'll get barked at, at best (and while maybe the guy's being a dick about it, you really did fuck up). It's just too edgy, just boils over too much for my tastes. I know people say "well, don't do those things", but you'd be surprised how difficult that is. How do you know if you're deepest on a wave that breaks both directions? Did you drop in, or did someone snake? If you sit too far out, you'll miss the wave, and if you make it, there will be a sea of people you have to dodge. If you sit too far in, you may be staring down the barrel of a dozen surfers all taking off on the peak - and they'll either run you over, buzz you, or kick out of the wave and be really pissed that you ruined the ride that they spent the last 30 minutes getting ready for. Or, if someone does that to you, you kick out (better that than run the guy over), and now you're now caught inside and pissing off the next guy. I surf regularly, and I'd much rather be in SF or Pacifica than in Santa Cruz. It's a trade off, though. If you want consistently high quality waves, SC does have more to offer.

jimbokun 6y ago
Sounds like a "tragedy of the commons" scenario.
sershe 6y ago
Unrelated but it cracked me up... I do a bunch of outdoor stuff but really couldn't get into surfing (and downhill skiing) because you have to wait/jostle with people/paddle forever/wait some more until you finally get 1 minute of enjoyment (or more like 10 seconds when you are starting out with surfing). I thought it was the beginner problem because the places where I can be are so few, and I suck at catching waves... so if I only practiced it would all be long rides with minimal downtime. I figured I'd never get around to actually do it, and it turns out I didn't make a mistake :) The worst you have to deal with in climbing is getting up super early so you could be the first on some popular route :)

kgin 6y ago

Sounds like NYC now as well. All the hard parts without the positive things that made living there worth it.