36 ms·

Oatly: The New Coke?

456 points by dshipper 6y ago

treyfitty 6y ago
TL;DR: Oatly (oat milk) is primarily sugar and canola oil. Both are bad in large quantities.
- kranner 6y ago
  It also has oats, though only 10%.
  - 1propionyl 6y ago
    Careful. Oatly's ingredient listing is potentially deceptive. The ingredients are listed as: > Oat base (water, oats 10%), rapeseed oil, ... That is, the oats make up 10% of the oat base, which is the most prominent ingredient, not of the entire product. The other ingredients which I've elided are things like stabilizers, preservatives, and so on, so they likely don't account for more than 1% of the total product. Now let's assume the worst case: that Oatly is 50% "oat base", and 49% canola oil, and 1% additives. This would be consistent with their ingredient labeling. Then, Oatly would actually only contain 5% of oats.
    - ses1984 6y ago
      If you want your post to seem reasonable maybe estimate a level of canola oil lower than 49%, it can be calculated from the fat content in a serving.
- eptcyka 6y ago
  The same can be said about milk - it's just sugar and fat, suspended in water. All 3 are bad in large quantities.
  - lambdaba 6y ago
    Except one has an industrial polyunsaturated fat, the other actually suitable for a mammal saturated fat. That's a huge difference.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  Oatley has loads of different varieties. The sugar content in the barista one is low enough that I can drink 3 flat whites a day and stay in Ketosis.
  - crispyporkbites 6y ago
    Are you concerned about weight loss? Why not just switch to espresso?
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      Not concerned about weight loss. Body fat is already almost too low. Doing it to modulate my immune system.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    The sugar content in the “Barista” edition is exactly the same as their ordinary version. Total calorie content is 59kcal/100mL versus the regular version which is 46kcal/100mL. The difference is they add dipotassium phosphate to prevent separating when the milk hits the hot coffee. By talking about “Low enough to stay in Ketosis” you are practicing the techniques discussed in TFA perfectly. Almost makes it sound like this special edition is lower in sugar, when it’s in fact the same sugar and higher calorie.
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
      I don't buy the other ones so I never check the nutrients.
- thomasahle 6y ago
  I don't think that's quite what it says. > Oatly compares their sugar to the sugar in cow’s milk, but they’re not the same sugar. Lactose, the sugar in cow’s milk, has a GI of 46. Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars, the 7g of sugar in Oatly with its 100+ GI is actually potentially worse than the 12g of sugar in whole milk with a 46 GI. We can use something called the “glycemic load” to measure this, which gives us a GL for the sugar in 8oz of Oatly of 7.35, and a GL for the sugar in 8oz of whole milk of 5.52. Oatly’s glycemic load is about 33% higher than milk’s is! The article says the glycemic load is higher than of milk, but not anywhere near the glycemic load of 14 of Coke (or 16, depending on where you are in the world http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=516&ak=detail http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=516&ak=detai...) This makes me think the title is at best referring the the over-the-top marketing, and at worst being pretty misleading.
ecmascript 6y ago
> Little Oatly in the south of Sweden Oatly is owned by a Chinese company so it's not very Swedish anymore. They claim bullshit like cow milk is bad and spread a lot of vegan propaganda. It's a really crap company with crap interests.
- Numberwang 6y ago
  Cow's milk is horribly bad for you.
- cpach 6y ago
  I find it kinda hilarious that despite this Oatly is very popular in vegan/new age/alternative circles. If I was a vegan I would rather drink organic soy milk.
  - Robbsen 6y ago
    And lots of us do. I see Oatly more of a mainstream brand than a vegan brand tbh
  - evilsetg 6y ago
    I have similar feelings. The organic soymilk I buy has two ingredients: water and sugar. Reading the ingredient list on oat milks always makes me a bit uneasy in comparison. I do sometimes buy oat milk though since it does go better with tea.
    - evilsetg 6y ago
      I meant water and soybeans for the soymilk :)
  - ecmascript 6y ago
    Or almond milk, which actually tastes good compared to soy milk and oatly. If you look at men who are vegan, they are almost always weak and feminine. Maybe that's just the kind of individuals that get drawn into a vegan diet, but I think there might be something else in play.
krthkv 6y ago
Great write up on debunking oatly's "health benefits". But fails to mention the the moral reasons to choose oat milk over cow's milk. TBF lot of the meat replacements are plagued by similar problems. [1] [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-how-healthy-are-these-meatless-burgers-2019081517448 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-ho...
- puttycat 6y ago
  Exactly what I had in mind. The article does not mention cow milk's health implications, and only focuses on debunking Oatly's alleged health benefits. This creates the same "Obscure the Truth" effect the article opens with, giving the impression that there's nothing wrong with cow milk. If both options are equally unhealthy (which is at the minimum the biased impression the article gives by not discussing cow milk), at the minimum the moral one should be chosen.
  - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
    What actual proven health implications does cows milk have?
    - crispyporkbites 6y ago
      Most people have some level of lactose malabsorption. Also cows milk has pretty grave health implications for the cows
      - m3kw9 6y ago
        So does eating meat.
      - flyinglizard 6y ago
        I asked my vegan friends if they’d rather these animals would not exist at all rather than be used for milk production (because they are only bred into existence for that). I wonder how that logic applies to humans born into living in rough countries, would vegans rather they would not exist at all? It’s not like a dairy cow has a life of eternal suffering after all. It eats, grazes, rests and socializes. It does cow things.
CPLX 6y ago
Every time I read about products like this I can't help but think back to Michael Pollen's simple phrase on the cover of The NY Times Magazine: Eat Food. Mostly Plants. Not Too Much. The relevant paragraph: "Once, food was all you could eat, but today there are lots of other edible foodlike substances in the supermarket. These novel products of food science often come in packages festooned with health claims, which brings me to a related rule of thumb: if you’re concerned about your health, you should probably avoid food products that make health claims. Why? Because a health claim on a food product is a good indication that it’s not really food, and food is what you want to eat." https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t...
spodek 6y ago
The article mentioned Merchants of Doubt. I recommend following it up with Industrial Strength Denial https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Strength-Denial-Corporations-Defending-Indefensible/dp/0520296281 https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Strength-Denial-Corporatio..., which documents similar practices supporting industries like leaded gas, radium (promoted for health including injecting it and using it in suppositories), and slavery. As an alternative to Oatly, I bought a soy milk making machine (used from Craig's List for $15). Like a rice cooker, it's not necessary but it does the job easily. It can work with rice, oats, cashews, etc. I make new soy milk every few days. Ingredients: soy beans and water. The article doesn't mention the packaging, another similarity with Coke, but food packaging creates a lot of waste. Buying soy beans in bulk in reusable bags reduces a lot of that pollution. Another great alternative to Oatly is water -- for hundreds of thousands of years the only beverage humans drank after weaning.
- thepete2 6y ago
  > The article doesn't mention the packaging Every time I go to the grocery store I wonder why we haven't come up with standardized food boxes that you can just refill. Probably has to do with hygiene, but god I hate buying so much packaging...
- evilsetg 6y ago
  About making soymilk: I do like the idea of making the soymilk I consume myself. I have not yet though found a way to utilize the okara (soy pulp) that is produced in the process. Do you have any tips what to do with it?
  - spodek 6y ago
    I use it like yogurt -- usually I chop fruit and and nuts on it, or I thicken my breakfast oatmeal with it. I don't sweeten it beyond fruit, though you could. You might also check YouTube. Actually I just did and it returns a lot of ideas: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=okara&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=okara&oq=&gs_l= Speaking of yogurt, I plan to start making soy yogurt too.
  - 6y ago
kitbrennan 6y ago
> anyone who's tried a latte with oat milk can attest it is by far the best tasting, most milk-like alternative That's quite a bold & generalising statement. Personally I think cashew nut milk is the most milk-like alternative in terms of flavour and mouthfeel.
- robotmay 6y ago
  Mm I find oat milk has a really weird aftertaste that I don't find pleasant.
- agloeregrets 6y ago
  Oat Milk, even the very best, is syrupy and thick. I think most people looking for a latte without dairy are better off seeing the Milk Alternative’s flavors as their own thing rather than trying to replicate a dairy latte. There are a lot of upsides to be found if you stop chasing an impossible goal. Notably, I found that a Soy London Fog is actually single-handedly a better drink than a milk London Fog...but it is different and if you are chasing a milk product you won’t find it.
  - kitbrennan 6y ago
    Completely agree, I'd probably say my favourite latte is with almond milk, but I wouldn't call it a dairy latte alternative since it has a radically different flavour. I found the same thing with yoghurt. Instead of trying to chase after a dairy alternative (like Alpro - which is a close flavour but wrong texture), I switched to coconut yoghurt. It's not going to fool anyone into thinking it is dairy, but none-the-less I think it is a superior switch in.
  - daneel_w 6y ago
    I disagree. I have access to several different brands of oat milk, and some of them are sweet, some are not. The neutral ones declare less sugar than Oatly and they don't use any noteworthy amount of salt to balance things out. The brand I prefer declares sugar content at 3 grams per 100, which is a bit less than the nominal amount of lactose in cow milk. I of course understand that these two sugars' GI profiles are different, I'm just pointing out that there is such a thing as neutral non-viscous oat milk.
harel 6y ago
I don't drink dairy due to intolerance and I find it disgusting possibly for the same reason. I also don't like any milk substitute so I'm out of any target demographic anyway. However, as far as I know according to traditional Chinese medicine milk is considered a big no no.
- thepete2 6y ago
  Do you rely on traditional Chinese medicine? Why would you do that?
  - harel 6y ago
    I don't rely on it but I do get acupuncture from time to time. My wife is a tcm practitioner and I can vouch it works. I don't claim it substitute western medicine but it works very well along side it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Try eating shredded carrots with coconut oil, olive oil and salt on an empty stomach once a day. In a couple of weeks try drinking milk again. If your milk intolerance is due to a bacterial overgrowth you should be able to tolerate it after that.
  - balfirevic 6y ago
    > Try eating shredded carrots with coconut oil, olive oil and salt on an empty stomach once a day. What does that do?
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      Carrots are an indigestible fibre so they carry the coconut oil into your small and large intestine. Usually the coconut oil would be absorbed rapidly. The coconut oil then kills the bad bacteria lining your gut. The carrots on their own also absorb some of this bacteria and are excreted. You can do the same thing with bamboo shoots if you don't like carrots.
TristanDaCunha 6y ago
I was looking for a second opinion, and found the comment by Glenn in that article was a good counterpoint. I won't repeat it here, but another point that comes to mind is that one may use a very small amount of milk-substitute in your hot drink, compared to drinking a much larger amount of coke. So it's not perfectly comparable, even if they were equally bad.
- thepete2 6y ago
  I think "the new coke" just refers to the misleading marketing, no? But you're right of course.
  - 1f60c 6y ago
    I haven’t yet read the article, but from the title, I thought it referred to Coca Cola’s inventor, John Pemberton, claiming[0] the drink was a cure for “many diseases,” ”including morphine addiction, indigestion, nerve disorders, headaches, and impotence.” [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#History
  - wirrbel 6y ago
    Health claims surround milk substitutes, without the necessary evidence. Dr Jason Fung writes about an over emphasis on data gathered from experiments with mice that guide public health recommendations. I think that's an important point. A lot of effects in animal studies haven't been observable in humans.
- mollusk 6y ago
  It's not just for coffee though. You could use it as one would use milk e.g. add it to your bowl of cereal, hot chocolate, milkshake etc. and consume a larger amount in total.
mft_ 6y ago
Any recommendations for a different good-tasting, ‘healthy’ milk alternative, then? Porridge or cereal with water is inedible...
- stevewodil 6y ago
  Almond Breeze almond milk, original flavor (don't get the unsweetened version).
  - chrisweekly 6y ago
    That's way too sweet for my liking; for me, nothing comes close to Califia brand unsweetened original flavor.
- wiiittttt 6y ago
  Make your own oat milk. There are many recipes available online and the process is simple.
- sgt 6y ago
  Same with hot chocolate drink made with water instead of milk. I had that served once and couldn't believe my eyes.
- francescopnpn 6y ago
  what about just drinking water and eating berries? I kid you not, you will feel so much better.
  - thepete2 6y ago
    Why berries? Any coffee-like effects that they have? Or just because they're unprocessed fruit?
  - mft_ 6y ago
    Maybe I should try a serious comparison with berries specifically, but my personal experience is that I don’t get the same sustained slow energy release from fruit that I’d get from porridge or low GI cereal - I get hungry faster.
lawlorino 6y ago
Still doesn't seem as "bad" nutritionally as regular milk. Oat milk is quite popular here in Finland, it's my understanding people choose it because of the environmental, moral and taste aspects, which the article doesn't mention at all.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TheChaplain 6y ago
Errors in the article. Oatley is no longer Swedish, it's owned by China Resources Verlinvest Health Investment Ltd, which is a partnership between an Belgian investor (Verlinvest) and the government of China (China Resources). Due to history Oatly do have considerable market in Sweden, but swedish social media are starting to question the company due to it's ties with China and the Uyghur situation.
- mpartel 6y ago
  https://www.oatly.com/int/about-oatly https://www.oatly.com/int/about-oatly lists other owners as well, but I couldn't find who owns what percentage.
NotOscarWilde 6y ago
A tangent on Canola and rapeseed oil: I have recently watched a Chinese Cooking Demystified video (I believe it was [1]) about the Chinese rapeseed oil and its comparison in taste and erucic acid contents to Canola oil, which is its only available variant in Western countries. The video stated a thesis echoed on Wikipedia's page on Erucic acid [2]: > Studies done on laboratory animals in the early 1970s show that erucic acid appears to have toxic effects on the heart at high enough doses. However, more recent research has cast doubt on the relevance of rat studies to the human health of erucic acid. Rats are unusual in their inability to process erucic acid, and the symptoms in rats caused by a diet with high levels of erucic acid has not been observed in pigs, primates, or any other animals. From what I understand, all the references in the Oatly article focus on Canola oil, which is supposed to be low on erucic acid. However, the few (~3) research sources in the Oatly article that I clicked on all do rat/mouse studies. Isn't that kind of strange, considering the erucic acid rat research controversy? The Wikipedia page on Canola oil [3] does not mention the health risks aside from the erucic acid controversy. Still, since Canola oil is such an important product, I can imagine any negative studies or claims could be contested. (Disclaimer: I have not checked the edit history of that page myself.) To sum up, I currently have no idea if Canola oil or rapeseed oils in general are risky, healthy in reasonable doses, or something else completely. If anyone with any expertise comes around, please educate me. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDP9t65PVsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDP9t65PVsY [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erucic_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erucic_acid [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola_oil
- fancyfredbot 6y ago
  This comment is the long form equivalent of the excellent https://mobile.twitter.com/justsaysinmice https://mobile.twitter.com/justsaysinmice (and just as great, thanks)
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Good shout on the studies maybe not being obviously relevant. I checked them, and the score is: Rat, Rat, actually about cooking in canola oil, any vegetable oil versus less olive oil, Rat, actually about a different oil with quite different content of the active acid being trialled, Rat, Rat. After this review, it is clear to me they cheated with what could have been the most quantitative part of the argument: a bad sign indeed. And yeah, turns out this is written by SEO marketer.
fancyfredbot 6y ago
TLDR; the sugars in Oatly have an extremely high GI and it contains Canola oil which has been linked to a variety of health issues. Their marketing cleverly dismisses or minimises these concerns in a similar way to the fizzy drinks or tobacco industry. I was surprised that the article didn't mention the comparative lack of protein in Oatly when compared to milk, and as others have mentioned, it also ignores the ethical considerations.
- kilroy123 6y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I really don't get the "fad" behind oat milk. I think it's just a lot of good marketing. Personally, I prefer no added sugar almond, coconut, and hazelnut milk.
jacobedawson 6y ago
Not to appear petty, or to give the impression that I care about internet points (full disclosure: I am and I do), but I posted this on HN with the exact same title and link 3 hours ago. Wondering how this didn't get flagged as a dupe?
- hownottowrite 6y ago
  Probably because OP posted it twice, the first time was 19 hrs ago.
  - jacobedawson 6y ago
    I guess that kind of makes sense, thanks :) solemnly looks out window contemplating points that could have been
    - hownottowrite 6y ago
      I’m only guessing but I know that look. :)
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
Reminds me of this story: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29373/tobacco-and-stress/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29373/tobacco-an...
m3kw9 6y ago
Would compare them to Mountain Dew, but the headline wouldn’t look as good.
twanvl 6y ago
> The evidence for the harms of canola oil is still in its early days, but continues to grow. Research has linked it to: Memory impairment [1], Alzheimer’s risk [1], Cardiovascular disease [2], [5], [6], [8], Diabetes [2], Increased all-cause mortality [2], [6], [7], Metabolic syndrome [3], Decreased brain function [4], and Oxidative stress [5], [7]. Most of these references talk about how there is no clear benefit of vegetable oils over animal oils or how "chronic canola oil consumption" results in obesity in transgenic mice. That is not really the same thing as "growing evidence for the harms of canola oil".
- lambdaba 6y ago
  I'm curious of your actual hunch, are you actually skeptical that canola (and other industrial seed oils) are not harmful?), or just pointing something out about the evidence?
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    I read it as twanvl pointing out that there is a lack of evidence to support the article's claims.
- vanilla-almond 6y ago
  I would be interested to know if these studies refer to low quality vegetable oils using a chemical process to extract oil. For example, in the UK, supermarkets sell cold-pressed rapeseed oil (canola oil in the US). The cold-press process is sold as making rapeseed oil as relatively healthy cooking oil. Does cold-pressing rapeseed/canola seed turn it into a relatively healthy cooking oil (vs the expeller-pressed or chemical extraction process)?
  - lambdaba 6y ago
    The problem is the fats in those oils are very susceptible to oxidation and have low smoke points, they are never safe as cooking oils for this reason. For cooking the best options outside of animal fats are olive oil and coconut oil, but of course olive oil is most versatile and better tasting imo.
doublesCs 6y ago
What's wrong with sugar though? I also don't buy the cartoonishly simplistic claim that "coca-cola is unhealthy". Does it cause obsesity? It doesn't "cause obsesity" in the same sense that ingesting more calories than you spend causes obsesity: It's not the coca-cola or the sugar by themselves.
- yourkin 6y ago
  The only thing wrong with sugar is overeating it to the point of ruining one's macro proportions and going into caloric surplus. Just saying that "sugar is unhealthy" is not true from a dietary perspective. A better statement would be "too much sugar is unhealthy".
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Sugar also causes teeth caries.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    True and the biggest cause of that is bread, pasta and other complex carbs. You can't drink enough orange juice to get the same amount of sugar as a bowl of pasta without feeling sick.
    - nojvek 6y ago
      Wait is bread and pasta, bad or good? I love bread and pasta.
      - partyboat1586 6y ago
        How do you feel after eating lots of bread and pasta?
        nojvek 6y ago
        I seldom eat too much of anything, but bread makes me glee with happiness. I don’t think I’d like to live in a world without bread. I love how it smells, I love how it tastes, I love how satisfied I feel after eating freshly baked bread. Probably not the answer you’re expecting but damn I love avocado toast, pizza, naan, french toast, burger, croissants and any form of bread. I don’t care if I die a few years early, I love bread.
daneel_w 6y ago
I'm on-board with the moral aspect of minimizing support for the dairy industry (though this topic is oddly never brought up), however, I just don't like the taste of Oatly's products. They are indeed too sweet. There are better-tasting oat beverage brands out there which declare less sugar (and without salt for balance). Soy milk works great, too.
- uxcolumbo 6y ago
  Which other brands would you recommend? I like the creaminess of Oatly - works well in coffee. Other brands I tried (Alpro) were a bit watery and some use guam, which is an OK thickener ingredient, but doesn't go with milk alternatives in my view. Maybe I'll look into making Oat milk - seems like a quick and easy thing to do.
  - daneel_w 6y ago
    The Swedish producer Trensums Food makes great oat drink varieties that I know are sold under different brands across Europe. I'm unfortunately only familiar with one of the Swedish brands, Coop.
seanwilson 6y ago
"Made for humans" also draws attention to the fact that the milk you're drinking from a cow is not being drank by the offspring of that cow like it normally would and many people don't realise you have to keep making diary cows give birth to get more milk. Newly born male cows are usually turned into veal in a few weeks and female cows are separated from their mothers so they don't drink the valuable milk. Milk giving cows are then slaughtered for meat when they stop yielding enough milk after several births. This reality isn't obvious from milk ads. I'll admit I only learned the above in the last few years because nobody talks about it and when you try people will instinctively defend these uncomfortable facts.
- mcculley 6y ago
  I hosted a meetup on “dairy tech”. Before the presentation, I think I had an implicit assumption that cattle raised for beef were treated poorly. I came away realizing that cattle used for milk production suffer more. In the most efficient dairies, they never leave their enclosure, are kept pregnant continuously via artificial insemination, and are injected with hormones.
  - seanwilson 6y ago
    > I came away realizing that cattle used for milk production suffer more. I think you could certainly argue that. Beef cows are slaughtered at around 3 years and diary cows are slaughtered at around 5 years but after giving birth with their offspring taken away several times (both have about a 20 year life span). Personally, I don't understand how vegetarians justify it as being much different in terms of animal cruelty. You're still paying into a system that's killing animals for your benefit.
    - williamdclt 6y ago
      > You're still paying into a system that's killing animals for your benefit Still a net improvement over buying milk and meat isn't it? Also, people are vegetarian for all sorts of reasons. For some it's about eating meat, for some it's about animal cruelty, for some it's about environmental impact, and probably there's plenty of other reasons
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
When I used to go to Japan, they had some kind of artificial creamer that was awesome. I actually preferred it to milk. I used to look forward to guzzling cup after cup of coffee in the hotel breakfast restaurant. It was probably 100% artificial, but it was great. I normally can't stand non-dairy creamers, of any kind, in the US. They seem to have an industry that makes artificial food, and it's quite advanced. I remember these artificial strawberries that were made of something like white chocolate. They were better than the "real thing." I'm probably gonna drop dead, because I consumed these things, but I did like them.
specialist 6y ago
I've started making oat milk. It's pretty good. Base for my smoothies. Substitute for yoghurt. Mostly because COVID-19 has reduced my dairy and fresh leafy greens consumption. (Fiber from oats isn't the same, I know.) For the enzyme, I use either honey or overripe banana. I generally let the oats soak in the blender for 30-60 minutes, hitting the button a few times if I remember. For fats, I use either olive oil or coconut cream. FWIW, this article's tone is a big turn off. It's good to point out high glycemic response, canola oil, and maltose. And I have no constructive comments about Coca Cola. But comparing oat milk to HFCS drinks is silly.
Jabbles 6y ago
Is Glycemic Index important for healthy people or is it mainly of concern to people with diabetes? The NHS suggests the latter, but it doesn't seem to have a very strong position - unlike the article, which seems very sure that high GI is bad for you. However, using the glycaemic index to decide whether foods or combinations of foods are healthy can be misleading. https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/what-is-the-glycaemic-index-gi/ https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/wha...
- jniedrauer 6y ago
  Glycemic index is a somewhat deceptive measurement. A snickers bar has a lower glycemic index than a slice of whole wheat bread[0][1]. That doesn't make it better for you. What glycemic index is actually showing you is the ratio of fat to carbs. And carbs are not inherently unhealthy. As a distance runner, I consume a lot more carbs than the average person, and I'm in the best shape of my life. [0] https://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?id=1061 https://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php... [1] http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?id=198 http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?...
- GordonS 6y ago
  I think it's only really relevant if you have diabetes or other disorders that affect blood glucose (e.g. reactive hypoglycemia), as long as people know that in general sugars (and potatoes!) will cause spikes in blood sugar, and so should be consumed in moderation. Although, even if you do have diabetes or the like, IMO just using the number of grams of carbohydrate and sugar in something is usually enough information, as you know that, in general, carbohydrates will cause your blood sugar to rise, and sugars will cause it to rise rapidly. I have reactive hypoglycemia, and knowing the GI of a few foods is useful, only because you wouldn't think they were that bad (potatoes!) - but after learning it, just the macros are enough make a decision.
tomohawk 6y ago
One thing to think about with any oat based product is whether or not the oats are organic or not. In North America, it is common practice to spray roundup on the oats just before harvest. This prepares the oats for harvest at a pre-determined time, and so is less risky to the farmer. However, the amount of roundup in the resulting product is quite high. The organic oats are traditionally farmed and do not have this problem. EDIT: The Oatly FAQ has a lot of interesting info related to this discussion. https://us.oatly.com/pages/faqs https://us.oatly.com/pages/faqs
ajkdhcb2 6y ago
You can criticize the health of anything like this. There isn't a comparison; how healthy is it compared to cow milk? The comparison to coke is ridiculous. Some sugar and canola oil doesn't even seem bad to me, seems perfectly fine. Especially given that I think it tastes way way better than other alternatives, without making me feel sick and having ethical/moral issues.
- rattray 6y ago
  Agreed; this felt like an unfair hit piece - if anything, I feel more comfortable drinking oatly (though perhaps not in large quantities). It was disappointing that the author didn't discuss how much fiber is in oatly, and how that can affect health and glycemic impact. The coke comparison felt particularly hypocritical - what's the glycemic load of 8oz of coke vs 8oz of oatly? If the takeaway is supposed to be, "the glycemic load of oatly is a little higher than milk", well, that doesn't exactly convince me this is going to be the new cause if a major diabetes epidemic (which drinks like coke do have a hand in).
ratelimited 6y ago
This reads as pro milk anti alternative marketing
SiempreViernes 6y ago
Man, what is it about SEO marketers and writing about things far out their competency?
- bartvk 6y ago
  That feels like a shallow dismissal.
  - SiempreViernes 6y ago
    The above is just a expression of sentiment, the actual dismissal is found in other parts of the comments.
bambax 6y ago
> Oatly compares their sugar to the sugar in cow’s milk, but they’re not the same sugar. Lactose, the sugar in cow’s milk, has a GI of 46. Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars, the 7g of sugar in Oatly with its 100+ GI is actually potentially worse than the 12g of sugar in whole milk with a 46 GI. We can use something called the “glycemic load” to measure this, which gives us a GL for the sugar in 8oz of Oatly of 7.35, and a GL for the sugar in 8oz of whole milk of 5.52. The "glycemic load" is just the result of the multiplication of the sugar mass by the glycemic index: 7x1.05=7.35 and 12x0.46=5.52; it would be more clear to simply state that.
- rattray 6y ago
  The article was also cleverly worded in a way that I find a little hypocritical – they're only comparing the _sugars_ of the two beverages. Oatly also has more complex carbohydrates, including 0.8g of fiber, per serving. A GL of 7 doesn't seem that high; a serving of almost any grain, including whole wheat kernels (11), are higher. Quinoa is 13. A ripe banana is 16. Source: https://dlife.com/glycemic-index-chart-and-effects-of-low-and-high-gi-foods/ https://dlife.com/glycemic-index-chart-and-effects-of-low-an...
cribbles 6y ago
I'm sympathetic to marketing counterfactuals, so I wanted to like this article, but its claims did not sway me. - The appalling environmental footprint of the dairy industry was never addressed. - The canola oil claims cited were nowhere near conclusive (see twanvl and NotOscarWilde's comments below). - The nutritional comparison seemed to me to be more or less trivial. Okay, it's got a higher glycemic index and similar sugar content compared to cow milk. If you share the author's concern about tacitly "health-adjacent" marketing, this is problematic, but not an outright lie. At worst the product has a pretty comparable nutritional portfolio to cow milk. Seems appropriate for a "milk substitute," no? The author engages in a little deceptive rhetoric himself by setting a 12oz serving as the baseline. It's true that a portion that size is bad for you. Lattes are bad for you. Like many people, though, I only rarely use milk substitutes to add a dash of not-coffee to coffee that would otherwise be too hot or too burnt. Guess I shouldn't be concerned? - Most glaringly, the moral dimension of dairy consumption is never addressed. I won't harp on about this too much as many other commenters have already, but this seemed like a glaring omission: who cares about sugar content if the alternative is needless suffering? I guess you could have the best of both worlds by not drinking a milk substitute in the first place, but that's not Oatly's market segment, so... Overall, this article came away as basically validating Oatly's marketing claims to me. Which is frustrating, since as I stated above, I'm biased toward marketing scrutiny!
- ysavir 6y ago
  > The author engages in a little deceptive rhetoric himself by setting a 12oz serving as the baseline. It's true that a portion that size is bad for you. Lattes are bad for you. Like many people, though, I only rarely use milk substitutes to add a dash of not-coffee to coffee that would otherwise be too hot or too burnt. Guess I shouldn't be concerned? Maybe you shouldn't be, but others might. I was regularly using ~1 cup of Oatly (8 ounces) in my weekend pancakes. It's still only 2/3 of their baseline portion, but it's significant enough. I've already moved from Oatly to Califia Farms Oat Barista Blend, which only has 3 grams of sugar per cup to Oatly's 7. And I'm keeping my eyes open for alternatives with even less sugar.
  - ianai 6y ago
vanilla-almond 6y ago
I drink milk, but I think the strongest case against drinking cows milk is industrial-scale dairy farming. We (consumers) are to blame because we want milk as cheap as possible. We've seen protests across Europe in the past by farmers who say they can't provide milk at such cheap prices and maintain welfare standards. Unfortunately, we consumers seem unwilling to pay for high welfare. Sure we say otherwise when asked, but our actions at the supermarket tell a different story. Also, most consumers don't even know what conditions are like for dairy animals. In Europe, consumers smugly assume we have high welfare standards (maybe we do relative to other countries), but I was shocked to learned that some farms still tie and tether cows in small cramped indoor spaces [1]. In fact, most dairy cows will spend the majority of their life indoors rather than outside grazing on pasture. This is the price of cheap, industrial-scale agriculture. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/08/its-medieval-why-some-cows-are-still-living-most-of-their-lives-tied-up https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/08/its-medi...
- Asooka 6y ago
  > We (consumers) are to blame No, the farmers are to blame. This is the kind of thing regulations solve. If we force the use of sustainable and ethical farming methods through regulation, like how we force producers to obey all other aspects of food safety and production, then the market will adjust to the new prices, whatever they may be.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    Actually I think the fault mostly lies with discounters leveraging the fuck out of farmers to compete against other discounters. There's a EU directive being implemented currently that would prohibit discounters from selling below cost, and it's very necessary.
    - realityking 6y ago
      I would say the fault is with EU and its subsidies: https://m.dw.com/en/are-subsidies-driving-dairy-farmers-into-bankruptcy/a-19289812 https://m.dw.com/en/are-subsidies-driving-dairy-farmers-into... Agriculture is a surprisingly difficult market. Part of that is an understandable desire of governments to maintain local production. Nobody wants to risk being cut-off their food supply.
seamyb88 6y ago
The new coke? No. Until Oatly are complicit in the murders of organizing employees in countries they thought would save them billions [1], they do not deserve such a damaging comparison. [1] https://prospect.org/features/coca-cola-killings/ https://prospect.org/features/coca-cola-killings/
xfiz 6y ago
The author should write a similar article about himself, because the whole article is filled with dubious claims and misguided evidence. The two main claims are "Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars" and "research showing harms from canola oil". Neither can be ascertained. A big problem with nutritional science is that it's complex, therefore it is neigh impossible to discover the truth how specific foods really impact the body. I'm also of the opinion that the term "healthy" shouldn't be really used. Here I go with Paracelsus: "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison." The author invites us to his newsletter "on getting healthy, wealthy, and wise." Yeah, it's all a baseless marketing ploy by, and for, the author. I want to note, I'm making no argument that Oatly should be considered healthy though.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  I suspect the article is mostly about getting seo juice for the newsletter so it boosts his clients more when he links to them. Though I’m not in seo myself, so I don’t know how these things work really.
- rguzman 6y ago
  i agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your comment, but saying "nutritional science is complex" or "the dosage alone makes it so that a thing is not a poison" does not help people figure out what foods to choose or how much to consume. looking at the glycemic index is a useful heuristic and some of the research on canola oil makes me skeptical of it, and i think it is good for the author to point that out, as it suggests that oat milk might not be as safe as it is marketed to be. another heuristic is biasing in favor of food that is processed less eg eating a bowl of oats is probably a better idea than drinking the analogous amount of oatly. similarly, it is a good idea to eat foods that people like you have been eating for long times, which in the oats vs oatly example favors the oats. the precautionary principle suggests that the onus is to verify the safety of a given new food, not to prove that it is unsafe.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
phonypc 6y ago
Comparing the glycemic index of pure lactose and maltose as proxies for dairy milk and oat milk is misleading. There are values for the whole products out there. The comparison still isn't favourable to oat milk, but implying it has a GI of 105 is absurd. Characterizing GI as a scale of how bad a food is for you is also kinda simplistic.
the8472 6y ago
Note that the organic variety has no added oil, then again, it also has no added vitamins. https://www.oatly.com/int/products/oat-drink-organic https://www.oatly.com/int/products/oat-drink-organic
dna_polymerase 6y ago
dang, this article is written by an SEO guy, and submitted twice over the past 20 hours, just by adding a hashbang. The history of the domain on HN shows this pattern a lot. Maybe you could look into it, but I guess this low quality hit piece is just another SEO fad and should be banned from HN.
- detaro 6y ago
  email him with such concerns, random comments aren't necessarily seen
zcw100 6y ago
I got to “ maltose has the highest glycemic index, with a rating of 105 out of 100” and stopped reading there.
adverbly 6y ago
I can't help but feel pity for the author here. They've correctly been able to see through all of these tactics and psychological hacks employed by the marketing industry, but then they've gone on and tried to better themselves and made a big ol fool of themselves trying to do it. The fact of the matter is that proving things and making a strong point in an argument is HARD. To really convince people about complex issues, you can't just make claims and then cite references. Complex issues will often have aspects where both sides can make well referenced scientific arguments in favour of their side. Hell, if tobacco could do it, why the author expects to do so much better when they try the exact same thing a few paragraphs later is beyond me. I certainly don't have a great solution either here, but I can say that the things in my life which have nudged my thinking have not been better someone who cited a better reference, or who argues harder for one side. It's been someone who explains as much as possible about the underlying mechanisms involved, and why something is BOTH good and bad which is almost always the case. This usually takes around an hour or 2 of presentation, and is presented by someone who has done years of research in a field. That's what did it for me and sugar at least: https://robertlustig.com/sugar-the-bitter-truth/ https://robertlustig.com/sugar-the-bitter-truth/
aszantu 6y ago
Wouldn't touch nut milks/seed milk unless I made it myself and got rid of all the lectins beforehand...
formerly_proven 6y ago
Oatly is kinda weird, because it contains more sugar than most other oat milks, yet somehow manages to taste dull, I imagine the sweat on the walls of a damp cellar has a similar note.
mark_l_watson 6y ago
I liked the article but it could have been much simpler and shorter. I believe that non-dairy "milk" can be healthy, but I look for a few things on the label: the package should contain almost no carbohydrates and no added oil. I just checked out our pantry, and indeed, the oat "milk" we have has more carbohydrates than I want, so that is off our shopping list. Other milk substitutes that I just checked met my criteria (various nut "milks", and hemp seed "milk"). Goodbye oat milk!
- dandanqu82 6y ago
  The low fat version of Oat-ly has no oil added. It’s not like the company is giving you no choice but to buy a product with “controversial” ingredients.
  - mark_l_watson 6y ago
    It turns out that oat "milk", even without oil added, has a lot of carbohydrates, some in the form of natural sugar.
    - azinman2 6y ago
      Oats have a lot of carbs
erik_landerholm 6y ago
12 ozs in your coffee...ohhhkay. What a dumb article.
marricks 6y ago
Oatley is replacing half and half and the like for a lot of coffee drinks. It’s not like that dairy is good for you anyways... There’s such an expectation that plant based substitutes should be amazingly healthy when often the things they’re replacing and pretty bad for you anyways. Those products often replaced also have massive lobbying groups and ad campaigns they go up against just because they exist. Take “got milk” or “beef, it’s what’s for dinner” big expensive campaigns backed by big lobbies spouting dubious claims.
INTPenis 6y ago
I'm from the home of Oatly, southern Sweden, Malmö. Most of my friends are vegan and even I buy Oatly just to avoid milk protein because I'm getting older. BUT a lot of my vegan friends are shying away from Oatly now apparently because they're partially funded by a large Chinese state owned company. And we actually have more locally produced alternatives to Oatly coming out here in Sweden, one is now launched in Stockholm but still waiting to spread down here.
- 1337shadow 6y ago
  I don't know Oatly, but it seems to be pretty much like an Horchata, which originated at least as far back as 13th-century Valencia, Spain.
  - INTPenis 6y ago
    I don't know about that but it's very simple. It's just oat based milk alternatives. Oat based drink, cream and stuff like that. It doesn't taste like milk. It tastes like oats soaked in water. But it works for cooking, coffee and blending as a replacement to milk.
kernoble 6y ago
Canola oil causes intestinal distress in more people than you know, similar but more severe than lactose intolerance, but it is often considered an allergy. My partner and her mother are unable to digest / have a violent intestinal response to it. It's extremely unpleasant for them, and in the long run could probably cause significant health issues related to nutrition absorption and increased inflammation. Anyway. I'm convinced that many people have this issue and don't know about it. Information about this problem is not very widespread, and I'm unaware of any studies that attempt to explain its mechanism.
aliswe 6y ago
I'd just like a comforting confirmation that "big milk" (sorry) hasn't had anything to do with this article. Apologies, got a bit traumatized by documentaries "Bananas" and "big boys gone bananas".
jmartrican 6y ago
This article convinced me to give Parly a try. Been looking for a milk substitute that is closer to Coe milk than nut milks.
deleted 6y ago
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nkingsy 6y ago
So much hate for cow milk. I think grain-fed dairy needs to stop, but a quick look at the latest studies shows all cause mortality is lower for people that drink milk.
emcq 6y ago
I was surprised to see no discussion about environmental impacts. One nasty consequence of non organic canola oil is that the industry largely uses glycophosate for pest control. The organic version of Oatly does not use canola oil, and Califa uses sunflower oil (and has less sugar!). And yes, industrial cattle practices suck. But the cattle themselves aren't the inherent problem. In 1800 there were approximately 60 million wild Buffalo in North America. Today there are about 90 million cows, of them about 30 million used for milk. The environment has the capacity to support a similar order of magnitude of bovines sustainably. Sustainable cattle farming in some cases is even carbon negative [0]. Bovines historically played a big role in the grassland ecosystem but what industrial scale farms are doing look nothing like nature. It's easy to vilify industrial scale cattle farming but it's not truthful to say that there are no ways to have environmentally friendly cattle farms. [0] https://www.whiteoakpastures.com/meet-us/environmental-sustainability/ https://www.whiteoakpastures.com/meet-us/environmental-susta...
tlow 6y ago
The article makes great points. The most important one is that the carbohydrate content of Oatly is significantly greater than milk with a much higher GI sugar. It has a different sugar formulation which has double the impact (GI) on blood sugar as compared to Lactose (milk sugar). This alone makes it an extremely unhealthy choice as drinking 12 oz is certainly enough to spike blood insulin levels and cause a subsequent roller coaster effect on blood sugar. People are blindly flocking it to it because sugar tastes good and clever but misleading marketing. We really need better nutrition education in society and better marketing controls on sugar.
- airstrike 6y ago
  > The most important one is that the sugar content of Oatly is not only significantly greater than milk, it has a different sugar formulation which has double the impact (GI) on blood sugar as compared to Lactose (milk sugar). Let's see... * 7g of sugar in a cup of a low-fat oatly https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/oatly/low-fat-oat-milk https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/oatly/low-fat-o... vs. * 12.5g of sugar in cup of 2% milk https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/milk-(2%25-lowfat-with-added-vitamin-a) https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/milk-(2%25... So you're factually incorrect. You're also disregarding the fact that even 12.5g of sugar isn't terrible if the rest of your diet is generally sugar free, that some people are lactose intolerant, and finally that oat milk doesn't come with the same terrible externalities associated with the dairy industry.
predictmktegirl 6y ago
I'm not convinced that Oatly is so tremendously bad, all things considered, and I forgive a little marketing-speak so long as they are being honest and forthcoming when engaged. That being said, I find the amount of "good for you" literature and products out there to simply be overwhelming. Do I want to know about what I put in my body? Sure. Do I want a PhD in nutrition? Umm... There is a simple rule I follow which I, probably erroneously, call the Law of Nature. If you want to trust what goes in, make it yourself and make it with whole foods that you can see and touch. Why is a food refined? To make it easier to preserve, store, and transport or to modify it's consistency, taste, or nutritional characteristics. 99% of these refinements lead to a product which is less nutritious for you and likely bad for you in some way. Indulge occasionally but realize that most forms of modern food refinement is not natural, and our bodies have evolved over tens of thousands of years to efficiently consume what occurs in nature. If you need a lab or the bacteria doesn't seem to manifest magically, it doesn't meet my definition of natural. I know this basically sounds like a Paleo plug, but my purpose isn't to define a practice you should follow. My main problem is information and deception. I don't have time to vet an entire grocery store of products, so I trust my evolution as a default. I want to feel comfortable and confident about what I consume rather than building an ideology out of it.
- enkid 6y ago
  I think for the most part your philosophy is a good one, if you can afford it (in money and time). The problem is that for many people, healthy foods aren't as accessible. It takes more time to cook your own food, or places that sell fresh foods are not close by. Or you don't have time to make grocery trips more than once every two weeks. If you are a single parent working a full time job, it's going to be very difficult to find time to cook from scratch every night. That's why we have to move toward making food more healthful by default.
  - berkes 6y ago
    I only partly agree. After 10+ years of baking my own bread, for example, it takes under 5 mins to drop my selfmade premix, or mix it there and then, in the bread machine. Preparing a sourdough and baking it off in the morning, takes a few times a few minutes, spread out. Point is, baking bread, takes me less time than going to the bakers. And is cheaper. Same for making my own jams, tomato sauce, pizza, syrup, honey, veggie garden, veggy burgers, wine, beer. It all takes time, but mostly planning. Saves money if done right. I realize that I'm priviledged with having space and opportunity to try and learn it all, but that is also because I pursued precisely that freedom and opportunity.
bmsd_0923 6y ago
Author fails to mention that Coca-Cola (and most other soft drinks) have like 35 grams of sugar per serving, so even with maltose's higher GI, it's still nowhere near the blood sugar bomb that a Coke is. Comparing that to 7 grams of sugar per serving (of which "quite a bit" is maltose) is just completely unreasonable. Whole piece similarly strikes me as dishonest and agenda-driven.
- sc4les 6y ago
  Yeah, a lot of claims with 0 sources doesn’t inspire confidence. So milk was never shown to be unhealthy, fat+cholesterol isn’t harmful but oat milk is terrible for you. Gotcha
keenmaster 6y ago
1 cup of Oatly, which is a massive amount to put in your coffee, is 120 calories. That's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I put Oatly in my coffee every day and it's basically my breakfast.
zabardasth 6y ago
I'm reminded of the scene in the "Last Emperor" when the young Emperor Puyi is weaned at a much later age from breast milk. Have there been any studies on long term consumption of breast milk, well into adulthood? If you think about it, breast milk has many minerals and important nutrients, including endocannabinoids like 2-AG.
sizzle 6y ago
"So now we have to ask ourselves: What’re the odds that we’ve learned our lesson and this will never happen again? Or could there be a new class of products running the same playbook, building billion dollar brands with clever marketing and deceptive health claims while secretly ruining our health?" I straight up thought they were describing tech companies or the advent of social media/ad tech e.g. Facebook, Twitter, etc. and health claims being it makes you feel more connected with people, but it actually affects your mental health and creates addiction in negative ways we are just starting to comprehend.
deleted 6y ago
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nojvek 6y ago
I can’t say much about Oatly but milk has a huge impact on the environment that isn’t put in $ value. Cows are farmed in somewhat inhuman environments where their value is mostly for milk, meat and leather. If we did this to dogs and cats, people would never accept it but we’ve been desensitized that’s it’s okay to farm pigs, chicken and cows for human consumption as long as we don’t see how it’s made. Then there’s the methane produced by cows which is 20x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
alz 6y ago
If you compare 100ml oatly to 100ml normal semi skimmed milk, it’s lower in calories, sugar, fat, has about 5 x less saturated fat, definitely doesn’t contain any hormones, antibiotics, casein, and probably doesn’t raise your igf1 either
srachamim 6y ago
This whole article is full of wrong statements about healthy and unhealthy food. And I'm not taking only about the advertisements.

456 points by dshipper 6y ago

treyfitty 6y ago

TL;DR: Oatly (oat milk) is primarily sugar and canola oil. Both are bad in large quantities.

kranner 6y ago
It also has oats, though only 10%.
- 1propionyl 6y ago
  Careful. Oatly's ingredient listing is potentially deceptive. The ingredients are listed as: > Oat base (water, oats 10%), rapeseed oil, ... That is, the oats make up 10% of the oat base, which is the most prominent ingredient, not of the entire product. The other ingredients which I've elided are things like stabilizers, preservatives, and so on, so they likely don't account for more than 1% of the total product. Now let's assume the worst case: that Oatly is 50% "oat base", and 49% canola oil, and 1% additives. This would be consistent with their ingredient labeling. Then, Oatly would actually only contain 5% of oats.
  - ses1984 6y ago
    If you want your post to seem reasonable maybe estimate a level of canola oil lower than 49%, it can be calculated from the fat content in a serving.
eptcyka 6y ago
The same can be said about milk - it's just sugar and fat, suspended in water. All 3 are bad in large quantities.
- lambdaba 6y ago
  Except one has an industrial polyunsaturated fat, the other actually suitable for a mammal saturated fat. That's a huge difference.
rorykoehler 6y ago
Oatley has loads of different varieties. The sugar content in the barista one is low enough that I can drink 3 flat whites a day and stay in Ketosis.
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  Are you concerned about weight loss? Why not just switch to espresso?
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    Not concerned about weight loss. Body fat is already almost too low. Doing it to modulate my immune system.
- zaroth 6y ago
  The sugar content in the “Barista” edition is exactly the same as their ordinary version. Total calorie content is 59kcal/100mL versus the regular version which is 46kcal/100mL. The difference is they add dipotassium phosphate to prevent separating when the milk hits the hot coffee. By talking about “Low enough to stay in Ketosis” you are practicing the techniques discussed in TFA perfectly. Almost makes it sound like this special edition is lower in sugar, when it’s in fact the same sugar and higher calorie.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    I don't buy the other ones so I never check the nutrients.
thomasahle 6y ago
I don't think that's quite what it says. > Oatly compares their sugar to the sugar in cow’s milk, but they’re not the same sugar. Lactose, the sugar in cow’s milk, has a GI of 46. Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars, the 7g of sugar in Oatly with its 100+ GI is actually potentially worse than the 12g of sugar in whole milk with a 46 GI. We can use something called the “glycemic load” to measure this, which gives us a GL for the sugar in 8oz of Oatly of 7.35, and a GL for the sugar in 8oz of whole milk of 5.52. Oatly’s glycemic load is about 33% higher than milk’s is! The article says the glycemic load is higher than of milk, but not anywhere near the glycemic load of 14 of Coke (or 16, depending on where you are in the world http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=516&ak=detail http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=516&ak=detai...) This makes me think the title is at best referring the the over-the-top marketing, and at worst being pretty misleading.

ecmascript 6y ago

> Little Oatly in the south of Sweden Oatly is owned by a Chinese company so it's not very Swedish anymore. They claim bullshit like cow milk is bad and spread a lot of vegan propaganda. It's a really crap company with crap interests.

Numberwang 6y ago
Cow's milk is horribly bad for you.
cpach 6y ago
I find it kinda hilarious that despite this Oatly is very popular in vegan/new age/alternative circles. If I was a vegan I would rather drink organic soy milk.
- Robbsen 6y ago
  And lots of us do. I see Oatly more of a mainstream brand than a vegan brand tbh
- evilsetg 6y ago
  I have similar feelings. The organic soymilk I buy has two ingredients: water and sugar. Reading the ingredient list on oat milks always makes me a bit uneasy in comparison. I do sometimes buy oat milk though since it does go better with tea.
  - evilsetg 6y ago
    I meant water and soybeans for the soymilk :)
- ecmascript 6y ago
  Or almond milk, which actually tastes good compared to soy milk and oatly. If you look at men who are vegan, they are almost always weak and feminine. Maybe that's just the kind of individuals that get drawn into a vegan diet, but I think there might be something else in play.

krthkv 6y ago

Great write up on debunking oatly's "health benefits". But fails to mention the the moral reasons to choose oat milk over cow's milk. TBF lot of the meat replacements are plagued by similar problems. [1] [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-how-healthy-are-these-meatless-burgers-2019081517448 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-ho...

puttycat 6y ago
Exactly what I had in mind. The article does not mention cow milk's health implications, and only focuses on debunking Oatly's alleged health benefits. This creates the same "Obscure the Truth" effect the article opens with, giving the impression that there's nothing wrong with cow milk. If both options are equally unhealthy (which is at the minimum the biased impression the article gives by not discussing cow milk), at the minimum the moral one should be chosen.
- gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
  What actual proven health implications does cows milk have?
  - crispyporkbites 6y ago
    Most people have some level of lactose malabsorption. Also cows milk has pretty grave health implications for the cows
    - m3kw9 6y ago
      So does eating meat.
    - flyinglizard 6y ago
      I asked my vegan friends if they’d rather these animals would not exist at all rather than be used for milk production (because they are only bred into existence for that). I wonder how that logic applies to humans born into living in rough countries, would vegans rather they would not exist at all? It’s not like a dairy cow has a life of eternal suffering after all. It eats, grazes, rests and socializes. It does cow things.

CPLX 6y ago

Every time I read about products like this I can't help but think back to Michael Pollen's simple phrase on the cover of The NY Times Magazine: Eat Food. Mostly Plants. Not Too Much. The relevant paragraph: "Once, food was all you could eat, but today there are lots of other edible foodlike substances in the supermarket. These novel products of food science often come in packages festooned with health claims, which brings me to a related rule of thumb: if you’re concerned about your health, you should probably avoid food products that make health claims. Why? Because a health claim on a food product is a good indication that it’s not really food, and food is what you want to eat." https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t...

spodek 6y ago

The article mentioned Merchants of Doubt. I recommend following it up with Industrial Strength Denial https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Strength-Denial-Corporations-Defending-Indefensible/dp/0520296281 https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Strength-Denial-Corporatio..., which documents similar practices supporting industries like leaded gas, radium (promoted for health including injecting it and using it in suppositories), and slavery. As an alternative to Oatly, I bought a soy milk making machine (used from Craig's List for $15). Like a rice cooker, it's not necessary but it does the job easily. It can work with rice, oats, cashews, etc. I make new soy milk every few days. Ingredients: soy beans and water. The article doesn't mention the packaging, another similarity with Coke, but food packaging creates a lot of waste. Buying soy beans in bulk in reusable bags reduces a lot of that pollution. Another great alternative to Oatly is water -- for hundreds of thousands of years the only beverage humans drank after weaning.

thepete2 6y ago
> The article doesn't mention the packaging Every time I go to the grocery store I wonder why we haven't come up with standardized food boxes that you can just refill. Probably has to do with hygiene, but god I hate buying so much packaging...
evilsetg 6y ago
About making soymilk: I do like the idea of making the soymilk I consume myself. I have not yet though found a way to utilize the okara (soy pulp) that is produced in the process. Do you have any tips what to do with it?
- spodek 6y ago
  I use it like yogurt -- usually I chop fruit and and nuts on it, or I thicken my breakfast oatmeal with it. I don't sweeten it beyond fruit, though you could. You might also check YouTube. Actually I just did and it returns a lot of ideas: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=okara&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=okara&oq=&gs_l= Speaking of yogurt, I plan to start making soy yogurt too.
- 6y ago

kitbrennan 6y ago

> anyone who's tried a latte with oat milk can attest it is by far the best tasting, most milk-like alternative That's quite a bold & generalising statement. Personally I think cashew nut milk is the most milk-like alternative in terms of flavour and mouthfeel.

robotmay 6y ago
Mm I find oat milk has a really weird aftertaste that I don't find pleasant.
agloeregrets 6y ago
Oat Milk, even the very best, is syrupy and thick. I think most people looking for a latte without dairy are better off seeing the Milk Alternative’s flavors as their own thing rather than trying to replicate a dairy latte. There are a lot of upsides to be found if you stop chasing an impossible goal. Notably, I found that a Soy London Fog is actually single-handedly a better drink than a milk London Fog...but it is different and if you are chasing a milk product you won’t find it.
- kitbrennan 6y ago
  Completely agree, I'd probably say my favourite latte is with almond milk, but I wouldn't call it a dairy latte alternative since it has a radically different flavour. I found the same thing with yoghurt. Instead of trying to chase after a dairy alternative (like Alpro - which is a close flavour but wrong texture), I switched to coconut yoghurt. It's not going to fool anyone into thinking it is dairy, but none-the-less I think it is a superior switch in.
- daneel_w 6y ago
  I disagree. I have access to several different brands of oat milk, and some of them are sweet, some are not. The neutral ones declare less sugar than Oatly and they don't use any noteworthy amount of salt to balance things out. The brand I prefer declares sugar content at 3 grams per 100, which is a bit less than the nominal amount of lactose in cow milk. I of course understand that these two sugars' GI profiles are different, I'm just pointing out that there is such a thing as neutral non-viscous oat milk.

harel 6y ago

I don't drink dairy due to intolerance and I find it disgusting possibly for the same reason. I also don't like any milk substitute so I'm out of any target demographic anyway. However, as far as I know according to traditional Chinese medicine milk is considered a big no no.

thepete2 6y ago
Do you rely on traditional Chinese medicine? Why would you do that?
- harel 6y ago
  I don't rely on it but I do get acupuncture from time to time. My wife is a tcm practitioner and I can vouch it works. I don't claim it substitute western medicine but it works very well along side it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
partyboat1586 6y ago
Try eating shredded carrots with coconut oil, olive oil and salt on an empty stomach once a day. In a couple of weeks try drinking milk again. If your milk intolerance is due to a bacterial overgrowth you should be able to tolerate it after that.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > Try eating shredded carrots with coconut oil, olive oil and salt on an empty stomach once a day. What does that do?
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Carrots are an indigestible fibre so they carry the coconut oil into your small and large intestine. Usually the coconut oil would be absorbed rapidly. The coconut oil then kills the bad bacteria lining your gut. The carrots on their own also absorb some of this bacteria and are excreted. You can do the same thing with bamboo shoots if you don't like carrots.

TristanDaCunha 6y ago

I was looking for a second opinion, and found the comment by Glenn in that article was a good counterpoint. I won't repeat it here, but another point that comes to mind is that one may use a very small amount of milk-substitute in your hot drink, compared to drinking a much larger amount of coke. So it's not perfectly comparable, even if they were equally bad.

thepete2 6y ago
I think "the new coke" just refers to the misleading marketing, no? But you're right of course.
- 1f60c 6y ago
  I haven’t yet read the article, but from the title, I thought it referred to Coca Cola’s inventor, John Pemberton, claiming[0] the drink was a cure for “many diseases,” ”including morphine addiction, indigestion, nerve disorders, headaches, and impotence.” [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#History
- wirrbel 6y ago
  Health claims surround milk substitutes, without the necessary evidence. Dr Jason Fung writes about an over emphasis on data gathered from experiments with mice that guide public health recommendations. I think that's an important point. A lot of effects in animal studies haven't been observable in humans.
mollusk 6y ago
It's not just for coffee though. You could use it as one would use milk e.g. add it to your bowl of cereal, hot chocolate, milkshake etc. and consume a larger amount in total.

mft_ 6y ago

Any recommendations for a different good-tasting, ‘healthy’ milk alternative, then? Porridge or cereal with water is inedible...

stevewodil 6y ago
Almond Breeze almond milk, original flavor (don't get the unsweetened version).
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  That's way too sweet for my liking; for me, nothing comes close to Califia brand unsweetened original flavor.
wiiittttt 6y ago
Make your own oat milk. There are many recipes available online and the process is simple.
sgt 6y ago
Same with hot chocolate drink made with water instead of milk. I had that served once and couldn't believe my eyes.
francescopnpn 6y ago
what about just drinking water and eating berries? I kid you not, you will feel so much better.
- thepete2 6y ago
  Why berries? Any coffee-like effects that they have? Or just because they're unprocessed fruit?
- mft_ 6y ago
  Maybe I should try a serious comparison with berries specifically, but my personal experience is that I don’t get the same sustained slow energy release from fruit that I’d get from porridge or low GI cereal - I get hungry faster.

lawlorino 6y ago

Still doesn't seem as "bad" nutritionally as regular milk. Oat milk is quite popular here in Finland, it's my understanding people choose it because of the environmental, moral and taste aspects, which the article doesn't mention at all.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

TheChaplain 6y ago

Errors in the article. Oatley is no longer Swedish, it's owned by China Resources Verlinvest Health Investment Ltd, which is a partnership between an Belgian investor (Verlinvest) and the government of China (China Resources). Due to history Oatly do have considerable market in Sweden, but swedish social media are starting to question the company due to it's ties with China and the Uyghur situation.

mpartel 6y ago
https://www.oatly.com/int/about-oatly https://www.oatly.com/int/about-oatly lists other owners as well, but I couldn't find who owns what percentage.

NotOscarWilde 6y ago

A tangent on Canola and rapeseed oil: I have recently watched a Chinese Cooking Demystified video (I believe it was [1]) about the Chinese rapeseed oil and its comparison in taste and erucic acid contents to Canola oil, which is its only available variant in Western countries. The video stated a thesis echoed on Wikipedia's page on Erucic acid [2]: > Studies done on laboratory animals in the early 1970s show that erucic acid appears to have toxic effects on the heart at high enough doses. However, more recent research has cast doubt on the relevance of rat studies to the human health of erucic acid. Rats are unusual in their inability to process erucic acid, and the symptoms in rats caused by a diet with high levels of erucic acid has not been observed in pigs, primates, or any other animals. From what I understand, all the references in the Oatly article focus on Canola oil, which is supposed to be low on erucic acid. However, the few (~3) research sources in the Oatly article that I clicked on all do rat/mouse studies. Isn't that kind of strange, considering the erucic acid rat research controversy? The Wikipedia page on Canola oil [3] does not mention the health risks aside from the erucic acid controversy. Still, since Canola oil is such an important product, I can imagine any negative studies or claims could be contested. (Disclaimer: I have not checked the edit history of that page myself.) To sum up, I currently have no idea if Canola oil or rapeseed oils in general are risky, healthy in reasonable doses, or something else completely. If anyone with any expertise comes around, please educate me. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDP9t65PVsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDP9t65PVsY [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erucic_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erucic_acid [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola_oil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola_oil

fancyfredbot 6y ago
This comment is the long form equivalent of the excellent https://mobile.twitter.com/justsaysinmice https://mobile.twitter.com/justsaysinmice (and just as great, thanks)
SiempreViernes 6y ago
Good shout on the studies maybe not being obviously relevant. I checked them, and the score is: Rat, Rat, actually about cooking in canola oil, any vegetable oil versus less olive oil, Rat, actually about a different oil with quite different content of the active acid being trialled, Rat, Rat. After this review, it is clear to me they cheated with what could have been the most quantitative part of the argument: a bad sign indeed. And yeah, turns out this is written by SEO marketer.

fancyfredbot 6y ago

TLDR; the sugars in Oatly have an extremely high GI and it contains Canola oil which has been linked to a variety of health issues. Their marketing cleverly dismisses or minimises these concerns in a similar way to the fizzy drinks or tobacco industry. I was surprised that the article didn't mention the comparative lack of protein in Oatly when compared to milk, and as others have mentioned, it also ignores the ethical considerations.

kilroy123 6y ago
Couldn't agree more. I really don't get the "fad" behind oat milk. I think it's just a lot of good marketing. Personally, I prefer no added sugar almond, coconut, and hazelnut milk.

jacobedawson 6y ago

Not to appear petty, or to give the impression that I care about internet points (full disclosure: I am and I do), but I posted this on HN with the exact same title and link 3 hours ago. Wondering how this didn't get flagged as a dupe?

hownottowrite 6y ago
Probably because OP posted it twice, the first time was 19 hrs ago.
- jacobedawson 6y ago
  I guess that kind of makes sense, thanks :) solemnly looks out window contemplating points that could have been
  - hownottowrite 6y ago
    I’m only guessing but I know that look. :)

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

Reminds me of this story: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29373/tobacco-and-stress/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a29373/tobacco-an...

m3kw9 6y ago

Would compare them to Mountain Dew, but the headline wouldn’t look as good.

twanvl 6y ago

> The evidence for the harms of canola oil is still in its early days, but continues to grow. Research has linked it to: Memory impairment [1], Alzheimer’s risk [1], Cardiovascular disease [2], [5], [6], [8], Diabetes [2], Increased all-cause mortality [2], [6], [7], Metabolic syndrome [3], Decreased brain function [4], and Oxidative stress [5], [7]. Most of these references talk about how there is no clear benefit of vegetable oils over animal oils or how "chronic canola oil consumption" results in obesity in transgenic mice. That is not really the same thing as "growing evidence for the harms of canola oil".

lambdaba 6y ago
I'm curious of your actual hunch, are you actually skeptical that canola (and other industrial seed oils) are not harmful?), or just pointing something out about the evidence?
- cinntaile 6y ago
  I read it as twanvl pointing out that there is a lack of evidence to support the article's claims.
vanilla-almond 6y ago
I would be interested to know if these studies refer to low quality vegetable oils using a chemical process to extract oil. For example, in the UK, supermarkets sell cold-pressed rapeseed oil (canola oil in the US). The cold-press process is sold as making rapeseed oil as relatively healthy cooking oil. Does cold-pressing rapeseed/canola seed turn it into a relatively healthy cooking oil (vs the expeller-pressed or chemical extraction process)?
- lambdaba 6y ago
  The problem is the fats in those oils are very susceptible to oxidation and have low smoke points, they are never safe as cooking oils for this reason. For cooking the best options outside of animal fats are olive oil and coconut oil, but of course olive oil is most versatile and better tasting imo.

doublesCs 6y ago

What's wrong with sugar though? I also don't buy the cartoonishly simplistic claim that "coca-cola is unhealthy". Does it cause obsesity? It doesn't "cause obsesity" in the same sense that ingesting more calories than you spend causes obsesity: It's not the coca-cola or the sugar by themselves.

yourkin 6y ago
The only thing wrong with sugar is overeating it to the point of ruining one's macro proportions and going into caloric surplus. Just saying that "sugar is unhealthy" is not true from a dietary perspective. A better statement would be "too much sugar is unhealthy".
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Sugar also causes teeth caries.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  True and the biggest cause of that is bread, pasta and other complex carbs. You can't drink enough orange juice to get the same amount of sugar as a bowl of pasta without feeling sick.
  - nojvek 6y ago
    Wait is bread and pasta, bad or good? I love bread and pasta.
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      How do you feel after eating lots of bread and pasta?
      - nojvek 6y ago
        I seldom eat too much of anything, but bread makes me glee with happiness. I don’t think I’d like to live in a world without bread. I love how it smells, I love how it tastes, I love how satisfied I feel after eating freshly baked bread. Probably not the answer you’re expecting but damn I love avocado toast, pizza, naan, french toast, burger, croissants and any form of bread. I don’t care if I die a few years early, I love bread.

daneel_w 6y ago

I'm on-board with the moral aspect of minimizing support for the dairy industry (though this topic is oddly never brought up), however, I just don't like the taste of Oatly's products. They are indeed too sweet. There are better-tasting oat beverage brands out there which declare less sugar (and without salt for balance). Soy milk works great, too.

uxcolumbo 6y ago
Which other brands would you recommend? I like the creaminess of Oatly - works well in coffee. Other brands I tried (Alpro) were a bit watery and some use guam, which is an OK thickener ingredient, but doesn't go with milk alternatives in my view. Maybe I'll look into making Oat milk - seems like a quick and easy thing to do.
- daneel_w 6y ago
  The Swedish producer Trensums Food makes great oat drink varieties that I know are sold under different brands across Europe. I'm unfortunately only familiar with one of the Swedish brands, Coop.

seanwilson 6y ago

"Made for humans" also draws attention to the fact that the milk you're drinking from a cow is not being drank by the offspring of that cow like it normally would and many people don't realise you have to keep making diary cows give birth to get more milk. Newly born male cows are usually turned into veal in a few weeks and female cows are separated from their mothers so they don't drink the valuable milk. Milk giving cows are then slaughtered for meat when they stop yielding enough milk after several births. This reality isn't obvious from milk ads. I'll admit I only learned the above in the last few years because nobody talks about it and when you try people will instinctively defend these uncomfortable facts.

mcculley 6y ago
I hosted a meetup on “dairy tech”. Before the presentation, I think I had an implicit assumption that cattle raised for beef were treated poorly. I came away realizing that cattle used for milk production suffer more. In the most efficient dairies, they never leave their enclosure, are kept pregnant continuously via artificial insemination, and are injected with hormones.
- seanwilson 6y ago
  > I came away realizing that cattle used for milk production suffer more. I think you could certainly argue that. Beef cows are slaughtered at around 3 years and diary cows are slaughtered at around 5 years but after giving birth with their offspring taken away several times (both have about a 20 year life span). Personally, I don't understand how vegetarians justify it as being much different in terms of animal cruelty. You're still paying into a system that's killing animals for your benefit.
  - williamdclt 6y ago
    > You're still paying into a system that's killing animals for your benefit Still a net improvement over buying milk and meat isn't it? Also, people are vegetarian for all sorts of reasons. For some it's about eating meat, for some it's about animal cruelty, for some it's about environmental impact, and probably there's plenty of other reasons

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

When I used to go to Japan, they had some kind of artificial creamer that was awesome. I actually preferred it to milk. I used to look forward to guzzling cup after cup of coffee in the hotel breakfast restaurant. It was probably 100% artificial, but it was great. I normally can't stand non-dairy creamers, of any kind, in the US. They seem to have an industry that makes artificial food, and it's quite advanced. I remember these artificial strawberries that were made of something like white chocolate. They were better than the "real thing." I'm probably gonna drop dead, because I consumed these things, but I did like them.

specialist 6y ago

I've started making oat milk. It's pretty good. Base for my smoothies. Substitute for yoghurt. Mostly because COVID-19 has reduced my dairy and fresh leafy greens consumption. (Fiber from oats isn't the same, I know.) For the enzyme, I use either honey or overripe banana. I generally let the oats soak in the blender for 30-60 minutes, hitting the button a few times if I remember. For fats, I use either olive oil or coconut cream. FWIW, this article's tone is a big turn off. It's good to point out high glycemic response, canola oil, and maltose. And I have no constructive comments about Coca Cola. But comparing oat milk to HFCS drinks is silly.

Jabbles 6y ago

Is Glycemic Index important for healthy people or is it mainly of concern to people with diabetes? The NHS suggests the latter, but it doesn't seem to have a very strong position - unlike the article, which seems very sure that high GI is bad for you. However, using the glycaemic index to decide whether foods or combinations of foods are healthy can be misleading. https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/what-is-the-glycaemic-index-gi/ https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/wha...

jniedrauer 6y ago
Glycemic index is a somewhat deceptive measurement. A snickers bar has a lower glycemic index than a slice of whole wheat bread[0][1]. That doesn't make it better for you. What glycemic index is actually showing you is the ratio of fat to carbs. And carbs are not inherently unhealthy. As a distance runner, I consume a lot more carbs than the average person, and I'm in the best shape of my life. [0] https://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?id=1061 https://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php... [1] http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?id=198 http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/glycemicIndexDetails.php?...
GordonS 6y ago
I think it's only really relevant if you have diabetes or other disorders that affect blood glucose (e.g. reactive hypoglycemia), as long as people know that in general sugars (and potatoes!) will cause spikes in blood sugar, and so should be consumed in moderation. Although, even if you do have diabetes or the like, IMO just using the number of grams of carbohydrate and sugar in something is usually enough information, as you know that, in general, carbohydrates will cause your blood sugar to rise, and sugars will cause it to rise rapidly. I have reactive hypoglycemia, and knowing the GI of a few foods is useful, only because you wouldn't think they were that bad (potatoes!) - but after learning it, just the macros are enough make a decision.

tomohawk 6y ago

One thing to think about with any oat based product is whether or not the oats are organic or not. In North America, it is common practice to spray roundup on the oats just before harvest. This prepares the oats for harvest at a pre-determined time, and so is less risky to the farmer. However, the amount of roundup in the resulting product is quite high. The organic oats are traditionally farmed and do not have this problem. EDIT: The Oatly FAQ has a lot of interesting info related to this discussion. https://us.oatly.com/pages/faqs https://us.oatly.com/pages/faqs

ajkdhcb2 6y ago

You can criticize the health of anything like this. There isn't a comparison; how healthy is it compared to cow milk? The comparison to coke is ridiculous. Some sugar and canola oil doesn't even seem bad to me, seems perfectly fine. Especially given that I think it tastes way way better than other alternatives, without making me feel sick and having ethical/moral issues.

rattray 6y ago
Agreed; this felt like an unfair hit piece - if anything, I feel more comfortable drinking oatly (though perhaps not in large quantities). It was disappointing that the author didn't discuss how much fiber is in oatly, and how that can affect health and glycemic impact. The coke comparison felt particularly hypocritical - what's the glycemic load of 8oz of coke vs 8oz of oatly? If the takeaway is supposed to be, "the glycemic load of oatly is a little higher than milk", well, that doesn't exactly convince me this is going to be the new cause if a major diabetes epidemic (which drinks like coke do have a hand in).

ratelimited 6y ago

This reads as pro milk anti alternative marketing

SiempreViernes 6y ago

Man, what is it about SEO marketers and writing about things far out their competency?

bartvk 6y ago
That feels like a shallow dismissal.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  The above is just a expression of sentiment, the actual dismissal is found in other parts of the comments.

bambax 6y ago

> Oatly compares their sugar to the sugar in cow’s milk, but they’re not the same sugar. Lactose, the sugar in cow’s milk, has a GI of 46. Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars, the 7g of sugar in Oatly with its 100+ GI is actually potentially worse than the 12g of sugar in whole milk with a 46 GI. We can use something called the “glycemic load” to measure this, which gives us a GL for the sugar in 8oz of Oatly of 7.35, and a GL for the sugar in 8oz of whole milk of 5.52. The "glycemic load" is just the result of the multiplication of the sugar mass by the glycemic index: 7x1.05=7.35 and 12x0.46=5.52; it would be more clear to simply state that.

rattray 6y ago
The article was also cleverly worded in a way that I find a little hypocritical – they're only comparing the _sugars_ of the two beverages. Oatly also has more complex carbohydrates, including 0.8g of fiber, per serving. A GL of 7 doesn't seem that high; a serving of almost any grain, including whole wheat kernels (11), are higher. Quinoa is 13. A ripe banana is 16. Source: https://dlife.com/glycemic-index-chart-and-effects-of-low-and-high-gi-foods/ https://dlife.com/glycemic-index-chart-and-effects-of-low-an...

cribbles 6y ago

I'm sympathetic to marketing counterfactuals, so I wanted to like this article, but its claims did not sway me. - The appalling environmental footprint of the dairy industry was never addressed. - The canola oil claims cited were nowhere near conclusive (see twanvl and NotOscarWilde's comments below). - The nutritional comparison seemed to me to be more or less trivial. Okay, it's got a higher glycemic index and similar sugar content compared to cow milk. If you share the author's concern about tacitly "health-adjacent" marketing, this is problematic, but not an outright lie. At worst the product has a pretty comparable nutritional portfolio to cow milk. Seems appropriate for a "milk substitute," no? The author engages in a little deceptive rhetoric himself by setting a 12oz serving as the baseline. It's true that a portion that size is bad for you. Lattes are bad for you. Like many people, though, I only rarely use milk substitutes to add a dash of not-coffee to coffee that would otherwise be too hot or too burnt. Guess I shouldn't be concerned? - Most glaringly, the moral dimension of dairy consumption is never addressed. I won't harp on about this too much as many other commenters have already, but this seemed like a glaring omission: who cares about sugar content if the alternative is needless suffering? I guess you could have the best of both worlds by not drinking a milk substitute in the first place, but that's not Oatly's market segment, so... Overall, this article came away as basically validating Oatly's marketing claims to me. Which is frustrating, since as I stated above, I'm biased toward marketing scrutiny!

ysavir 6y ago
> The author engages in a little deceptive rhetoric himself by setting a 12oz serving as the baseline. It's true that a portion that size is bad for you. Lattes are bad for you. Like many people, though, I only rarely use milk substitutes to add a dash of not-coffee to coffee that would otherwise be too hot or too burnt. Guess I shouldn't be concerned? Maybe you shouldn't be, but others might. I was regularly using ~1 cup of Oatly (8 ounces) in my weekend pancakes. It's still only 2/3 of their baseline portion, but it's significant enough. I've already moved from Oatly to Califia Farms Oat Barista Blend, which only has 3 grams of sugar per cup to Oatly's 7. And I'm keeping my eyes open for alternatives with even less sugar.
- ianai 6y ago

vanilla-almond 6y ago

I drink milk, but I think the strongest case against drinking cows milk is industrial-scale dairy farming. We (consumers) are to blame because we want milk as cheap as possible. We've seen protests across Europe in the past by farmers who say they can't provide milk at such cheap prices and maintain welfare standards. Unfortunately, we consumers seem unwilling to pay for high welfare. Sure we say otherwise when asked, but our actions at the supermarket tell a different story. Also, most consumers don't even know what conditions are like for dairy animals. In Europe, consumers smugly assume we have high welfare standards (maybe we do relative to other countries), but I was shocked to learned that some farms still tie and tether cows in small cramped indoor spaces [1]. In fact, most dairy cows will spend the majority of their life indoors rather than outside grazing on pasture. This is the price of cheap, industrial-scale agriculture. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/08/its-medieval-why-some-cows-are-still-living-most-of-their-lives-tied-up https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/08/its-medi...

Asooka 6y ago
> We (consumers) are to blame No, the farmers are to blame. This is the kind of thing regulations solve. If we force the use of sustainable and ethical farming methods through regulation, like how we force producers to obey all other aspects of food safety and production, then the market will adjust to the new prices, whatever they may be.
- formerly_proven 6y ago
  Actually I think the fault mostly lies with discounters leveraging the fuck out of farmers to compete against other discounters. There's a EU directive being implemented currently that would prohibit discounters from selling below cost, and it's very necessary.
  - realityking 6y ago
    I would say the fault is with EU and its subsidies: https://m.dw.com/en/are-subsidies-driving-dairy-farmers-into-bankruptcy/a-19289812 https://m.dw.com/en/are-subsidies-driving-dairy-farmers-into... Agriculture is a surprisingly difficult market. Part of that is an understandable desire of governments to maintain local production. Nobody wants to risk being cut-off their food supply.

seamyb88 6y ago

The new coke? No. Until Oatly are complicit in the murders of organizing employees in countries they thought would save them billions [1], they do not deserve such a damaging comparison. [1] https://prospect.org/features/coca-cola-killings/ https://prospect.org/features/coca-cola-killings/

xfiz 6y ago

The author should write a similar article about himself, because the whole article is filled with dubious claims and misguided evidence. The two main claims are "Since the GI is a measure of how much of a negative response your body has to certain sugars" and "research showing harms from canola oil". Neither can be ascertained. A big problem with nutritional science is that it's complex, therefore it is neigh impossible to discover the truth how specific foods really impact the body. I'm also of the opinion that the term "healthy" shouldn't be really used. Here I go with Paracelsus: "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison." The author invites us to his newsletter "on getting healthy, wealthy, and wise." Yeah, it's all a baseless marketing ploy by, and for, the author. I want to note, I'm making no argument that Oatly should be considered healthy though.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
I suspect the article is mostly about getting seo juice for the newsletter so it boosts his clients more when he links to them. Though I’m not in seo myself, so I don’t know how these things work really.
rguzman 6y ago
i agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your comment, but saying "nutritional science is complex" or "the dosage alone makes it so that a thing is not a poison" does not help people figure out what foods to choose or how much to consume. looking at the glycemic index is a useful heuristic and some of the research on canola oil makes me skeptical of it, and i think it is good for the author to point that out, as it suggests that oat milk might not be as safe as it is marketed to be. another heuristic is biasing in favor of food that is processed less eg eating a bowl of oats is probably a better idea than drinking the analogous amount of oatly. similarly, it is a good idea to eat foods that people like you have been eating for long times, which in the oats vs oatly example favors the oats. the precautionary principle suggests that the onus is to verify the safety of a given new food, not to prove that it is unsafe.
- mumblemumble 6y ago

phonypc 6y ago

Comparing the glycemic index of pure lactose and maltose as proxies for dairy milk and oat milk is misleading. There are values for the whole products out there. The comparison still isn't favourable to oat milk, but implying it has a GI of 105 is absurd. Characterizing GI as a scale of how bad a food is for you is also kinda simplistic.

the8472 6y ago

Note that the organic variety has no added oil, then again, it also has no added vitamins. https://www.oatly.com/int/products/oat-drink-organic https://www.oatly.com/int/products/oat-drink-organic

dna_polymerase 6y ago

dang, this article is written by an SEO guy, and submitted twice over the past 20 hours, just by adding a hashbang. The history of the domain on HN shows this pattern a lot. Maybe you could look into it, but I guess this low quality hit piece is just another SEO fad and should be banned from HN.

detaro 6y ago
email him with such concerns, random comments aren't necessarily seen

zcw100 6y ago

I got to “ maltose has the highest glycemic index, with a rating of 105 out of 100” and stopped reading there.

adverbly 6y ago

I can't help but feel pity for the author here. They've correctly been able to see through all of these tactics and psychological hacks employed by the marketing industry, but then they've gone on and tried to better themselves and made a big ol fool of themselves trying to do it. The fact of the matter is that proving things and making a strong point in an argument is HARD. To really convince people about complex issues, you can't just make claims and then cite references. Complex issues will often have aspects where both sides can make well referenced scientific arguments in favour of their side. Hell, if tobacco could do it, why the author expects to do so much better when they try the exact same thing a few paragraphs later is beyond me. I certainly don't have a great solution either here, but I can say that the things in my life which have nudged my thinking have not been better someone who cited a better reference, or who argues harder for one side. It's been someone who explains as much as possible about the underlying mechanisms involved, and why something is BOTH good and bad which is almost always the case. This usually takes around an hour or 2 of presentation, and is presented by someone who has done years of research in a field. That's what did it for me and sugar at least: https://robertlustig.com/sugar-the-bitter-truth/ https://robertlustig.com/sugar-the-bitter-truth/

aszantu 6y ago

Wouldn't touch nut milks/seed milk unless I made it myself and got rid of all the lectins beforehand...

formerly_proven 6y ago

Oatly is kinda weird, because it contains more sugar than most other oat milks, yet somehow manages to taste dull, I imagine the sweat on the walls of a damp cellar has a similar note.

mark_l_watson 6y ago

I liked the article but it could have been much simpler and shorter. I believe that non-dairy "milk" can be healthy, but I look for a few things on the label: the package should contain almost no carbohydrates and no added oil. I just checked out our pantry, and indeed, the oat "milk" we have has more carbohydrates than I want, so that is off our shopping list. Other milk substitutes that I just checked met my criteria (various nut "milks", and hemp seed "milk"). Goodbye oat milk!

dandanqu82 6y ago
The low fat version of Oat-ly has no oil added. It’s not like the company is giving you no choice but to buy a product with “controversial” ingredients.
- mark_l_watson 6y ago
  It turns out that oat "milk", even without oil added, has a lot of carbohydrates, some in the form of natural sugar.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    Oats have a lot of carbs

erik_landerholm 6y ago

12 ozs in your coffee...ohhhkay. What a dumb article.

marricks 6y ago

Oatley is replacing half and half and the like for a lot of coffee drinks. It’s not like that dairy is good for you anyways... There’s such an expectation that plant based substitutes should be amazingly healthy when often the things they’re replacing and pretty bad for you anyways. Those products often replaced also have massive lobbying groups and ad campaigns they go up against just because they exist. Take “got milk” or “beef, it’s what’s for dinner” big expensive campaigns backed by big lobbies spouting dubious claims.

INTPenis 6y ago

I'm from the home of Oatly, southern Sweden, Malmö. Most of my friends are vegan and even I buy Oatly just to avoid milk protein because I'm getting older. BUT a lot of my vegan friends are shying away from Oatly now apparently because they're partially funded by a large Chinese state owned company. And we actually have more locally produced alternatives to Oatly coming out here in Sweden, one is now launched in Stockholm but still waiting to spread down here.

1337shadow 6y ago
I don't know Oatly, but it seems to be pretty much like an Horchata, which originated at least as far back as 13th-century Valencia, Spain.
- INTPenis 6y ago
  I don't know about that but it's very simple. It's just oat based milk alternatives. Oat based drink, cream and stuff like that. It doesn't taste like milk. It tastes like oats soaked in water. But it works for cooking, coffee and blending as a replacement to milk.

kernoble 6y ago

Canola oil causes intestinal distress in more people than you know, similar but more severe than lactose intolerance, but it is often considered an allergy. My partner and her mother are unable to digest / have a violent intestinal response to it. It's extremely unpleasant for them, and in the long run could probably cause significant health issues related to nutrition absorption and increased inflammation. Anyway. I'm convinced that many people have this issue and don't know about it. Information about this problem is not very widespread, and I'm unaware of any studies that attempt to explain its mechanism.

aliswe 6y ago

I'd just like a comforting confirmation that "big milk" (sorry) hasn't had anything to do with this article. Apologies, got a bit traumatized by documentaries "Bananas" and "big boys gone bananas".

jmartrican 6y ago

This article convinced me to give Parly a try. Been looking for a milk substitute that is closer to Coe milk than nut milks.

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nkingsy 6y ago

So much hate for cow milk. I think grain-fed dairy needs to stop, but a quick look at the latest studies shows all cause mortality is lower for people that drink milk.

emcq 6y ago

I was surprised to see no discussion about environmental impacts. One nasty consequence of non organic canola oil is that the industry largely uses glycophosate for pest control. The organic version of Oatly does not use canola oil, and Califa uses sunflower oil (and has less sugar!). And yes, industrial cattle practices suck. But the cattle themselves aren't the inherent problem. In 1800 there were approximately 60 million wild Buffalo in North America. Today there are about 90 million cows, of them about 30 million used for milk. The environment has the capacity to support a similar order of magnitude of bovines sustainably. Sustainable cattle farming in some cases is even carbon negative [0]. Bovines historically played a big role in the grassland ecosystem but what industrial scale farms are doing look nothing like nature. It's easy to vilify industrial scale cattle farming but it's not truthful to say that there are no ways to have environmentally friendly cattle farms. [0] https://www.whiteoakpastures.com/meet-us/environmental-sustainability/ https://www.whiteoakpastures.com/meet-us/environmental-susta...

tlow 6y ago

The article makes great points. The most important one is that the carbohydrate content of Oatly is significantly greater than milk with a much higher GI sugar. It has a different sugar formulation which has double the impact (GI) on blood sugar as compared to Lactose (milk sugar). This alone makes it an extremely unhealthy choice as drinking 12 oz is certainly enough to spike blood insulin levels and cause a subsequent roller coaster effect on blood sugar. People are blindly flocking it to it because sugar tastes good and clever but misleading marketing. We really need better nutrition education in society and better marketing controls on sugar.

airstrike 6y ago
> The most important one is that the sugar content of Oatly is not only significantly greater than milk, it has a different sugar formulation which has double the impact (GI) on blood sugar as compared to Lactose (milk sugar). Let's see... * 7g of sugar in a cup of a low-fat oatly https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/oatly/low-fat-oat-milk https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/oatly/low-fat-o... vs. * 12.5g of sugar in cup of 2% milk https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/milk-(2%25-lowfat-with-added-vitamin-a) https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/milk-(2%25... So you're factually incorrect. You're also disregarding the fact that even 12.5g of sugar isn't terrible if the rest of your diet is generally sugar free, that some people are lactose intolerant, and finally that oat milk doesn't come with the same terrible externalities associated with the dairy industry.

predictmktegirl 6y ago

I'm not convinced that Oatly is so tremendously bad, all things considered, and I forgive a little marketing-speak so long as they are being honest and forthcoming when engaged. That being said, I find the amount of "good for you" literature and products out there to simply be overwhelming. Do I want to know about what I put in my body? Sure. Do I want a PhD in nutrition? Umm... There is a simple rule I follow which I, probably erroneously, call the Law of Nature. If you want to trust what goes in, make it yourself and make it with whole foods that you can see and touch. Why is a food refined? To make it easier to preserve, store, and transport or to modify it's consistency, taste, or nutritional characteristics. 99% of these refinements lead to a product which is less nutritious for you and likely bad for you in some way. Indulge occasionally but realize that most forms of modern food refinement is not natural, and our bodies have evolved over tens of thousands of years to efficiently consume what occurs in nature. If you need a lab or the bacteria doesn't seem to manifest magically, it doesn't meet my definition of natural. I know this basically sounds like a Paleo plug, but my purpose isn't to define a practice you should follow. My main problem is information and deception. I don't have time to vet an entire grocery store of products, so I trust my evolution as a default. I want to feel comfortable and confident about what I consume rather than building an ideology out of it.

enkid 6y ago
I think for the most part your philosophy is a good one, if you can afford it (in money and time). The problem is that for many people, healthy foods aren't as accessible. It takes more time to cook your own food, or places that sell fresh foods are not close by. Or you don't have time to make grocery trips more than once every two weeks. If you are a single parent working a full time job, it's going to be very difficult to find time to cook from scratch every night. That's why we have to move toward making food more healthful by default.
- berkes 6y ago
  I only partly agree. After 10+ years of baking my own bread, for example, it takes under 5 mins to drop my selfmade premix, or mix it there and then, in the bread machine. Preparing a sourdough and baking it off in the morning, takes a few times a few minutes, spread out. Point is, baking bread, takes me less time than going to the bakers. And is cheaper. Same for making my own jams, tomato sauce, pizza, syrup, honey, veggie garden, veggy burgers, wine, beer. It all takes time, but mostly planning. Saves money if done right. I realize that I'm priviledged with having space and opportunity to try and learn it all, but that is also because I pursued precisely that freedom and opportunity.

bmsd_0923 6y ago

Author fails to mention that Coca-Cola (and most other soft drinks) have like 35 grams of sugar per serving, so even with maltose's higher GI, it's still nowhere near the blood sugar bomb that a Coke is. Comparing that to 7 grams of sugar per serving (of which "quite a bit" is maltose) is just completely unreasonable. Whole piece similarly strikes me as dishonest and agenda-driven.

sc4les 6y ago
Yeah, a lot of claims with 0 sources doesn’t inspire confidence. So milk was never shown to be unhealthy, fat+cholesterol isn’t harmful but oat milk is terrible for you. Gotcha

keenmaster 6y ago

1 cup of Oatly, which is a massive amount to put in your coffee, is 120 calories. That's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I put Oatly in my coffee every day and it's basically my breakfast.

zabardasth 6y ago

I'm reminded of the scene in the "Last Emperor" when the young Emperor Puyi is weaned at a much later age from breast milk. Have there been any studies on long term consumption of breast milk, well into adulthood? If you think about it, breast milk has many minerals and important nutrients, including endocannabinoids like 2-AG.

sizzle 6y ago

"So now we have to ask ourselves: What’re the odds that we’ve learned our lesson and this will never happen again? Or could there be a new class of products running the same playbook, building billion dollar brands with clever marketing and deceptive health claims while secretly ruining our health?" I straight up thought they were describing tech companies or the advent of social media/ad tech e.g. Facebook, Twitter, etc. and health claims being it makes you feel more connected with people, but it actually affects your mental health and creates addiction in negative ways we are just starting to comprehend.

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nojvek 6y ago

I can’t say much about Oatly but milk has a huge impact on the environment that isn’t put in $ value. Cows are farmed in somewhat inhuman environments where their value is mostly for milk, meat and leather. If we did this to dogs and cats, people would never accept it but we’ve been desensitized that’s it’s okay to farm pigs, chicken and cows for human consumption as long as we don’t see how it’s made. Then there’s the methane produced by cows which is 20x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.

alz 6y ago

If you compare 100ml oatly to 100ml normal semi skimmed milk, it’s lower in calories, sugar, fat, has about 5 x less saturated fat, definitely doesn’t contain any hormones, antibiotics, casein, and probably doesn’t raise your igf1 either

srachamim 6y ago

This whole article is full of wrong statements about healthy and unhealthy food. And I'm not taking only about the advertisements.