24 ms·

Google to keep employees home until summer 2021

413 points by tysone 6y ago

welfare 6y ago
If everyone's moving to remote working. Do you believe this will push for dumping wages as well? I don't mean moving jobs to India, but rather recruit remote workers in relative low-income areas of the US? Not discrediting the amount of skills available on the US East coast but why wouldn't FAANG try to source new remote employees elsewhere in the US?
- save_ferris 6y ago
  Some employers will probably try, but since I've moved to a lower-income area of the US, I've noticed that there aren't a ton of other developers in my community, especially with 5+ yrs experience. I think location will factor more into salary discussions moving foward, but it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks.
  - Loughla 6y ago
    >it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks. Yet. That's the point. They're in places like SV, because they're required to be, right now. If remote work really takes hold, and folks can move to places like South Dakota, I bet that changes. That's the entire point. Right now there aren't folks out there, but there will be in the next 1-3 years, I imagine.
    - jakemal 6y ago
      Also, South Dakota is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from SV. Today, there is a sizeable population of talented developers living in the suburbs of major cities with a COL of a third or less than the Bay area.
    - neonate 6y ago
      If this became a big enough trend, I wonder if it could lead to a revitalization of rural America.
      - Loughla 6y ago
        I mean, the nearest town to me (pop.<600) has fiber internet. Many rural/small towns have local co-ops that no one talks about who are offering fiber. What else would you need?
        charwalker 6y ago
        Personally, a fairly liberal set of laws in place to maintain my current set of rights and options let alone those for my female partner. I won't be moving to a state that insists in conservative social policies like banning abortion and cutting education or basic infrastructure under the guise of lowering taxes. I like living in a functional democracy, at as a state, and happy to pay taxes for things like better schools and roads.
        Loughla 6y ago
        That's actually one thing I really like about living in a Northern Rural area. The rural attitude of 'live and let live' and 'leave me the fuck alone' carries over to relationships and home life. Nobody really cares about my relationship with my partner, as long as I'm willing to leave them the fuck alone. I say 'northern' rural area, just because I've never lived in a rural area in the south of the US.
        charwalker 6y ago
        I don't have anything against that or moving to a location that meets your values. It's more that I'd prefer to support schools and social programs, and have those open to me as best as possible, than get away from it all. I've been in a spot where if it wasn't for the ACA I'd be dead (specifically extension of parents insurance until child is 26) and if I didn't have strong local schools growing up I probably wouldn't have gone far. We do better when we work together and pool resources for all, including the next generation. It's hard for me to be a part of that by moving somewhere rural. And I can't bring myself to move to a red state unless it's flipping purple and willing to basically pull a Virginia. The social rights differences between colors is serious and unfortunate.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    >it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks. There are tons of software developers in Canada though.
- miguelmota 6y ago
  Wages typically match the market rate salaries of the employees location so it's expected that remote workers wages will be lower. Many employers are not offering promotions and bonuses now because of the coronavirus uncertainty. I do think companies will try to recruit employees from anywhere now instead of local or domestic since theres no office to go into now.
varbhat 6y ago
Good thing. I think that other major companies too will follow the same step Google has taken now(WFH). PS: Typing this wondering when the corona phases out.
- eclipxe 6y ago
  Once there is a vaccine in the US, readily available.
  - sb52191 6y ago
    I'm not even sure I believe this anymore. Seeing how many people out there believe masks are BAD for you makes me skeptical that most people will actually get the vaccine...
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    Keep in mind (from a pandemic perspective): - The current population density of urban and suburban areas, is prone to pandemic scale events. However, density is great for a lot of reasons and this trend will continue. - The latency and throughput of travel being so good, is prone to pandemic scale events. However, current travel is great for a lot of reasons and improving latency and throughput will continue. - Bio-engineering advancing quickly, will be prone to cause pandemic scale events. However, we need to advance this domain for better medical treatments. With these points above, the next large-scale, remote-work event is guaranteed, the only question is when. Keep in mind (from a for-profit corporation perspective): - They value stable productivity rather than productivity peaks and throughs. - Land, buildings and infrastructure are 15% of employee costs. - Pandemics are not the only form of churn requiring remote work, so are natural and unnatural disasters, etc. - Reacting to the event, will always lag the event. Creating a vaccine or cleaning up a fire / flood / earthquake will require a few months at the least, everytime. As a company making a decision today: - If the employees working remotely have less than 15% productivity loss (but the company pays 15% less for real-estate), then remote-work is viable today. Like with Google, et-al. - If the employees working remotely have a noticeable (i.e. 15% or more) productivity loss, then remote-work is not a viable option. However, maybe the increased stability is worthwhile for the company, and remote-work will be deemed viable. In either case, it seems like a no-brainier to start investing into tooling to support automation or remote-work with increased productivity (Slack, Oculus, remote controlled robots, etc). While the word "covid" will phase out, the mentality of remote-work and hyper-hygiene (e.g. masks and hand sanitizers) will only accelerate. This is similar to the change of era where "parents allowed the kids to play outdoors, unsupervised", these eras are sadly over.
aminozuur 6y ago
I'm pleased to see that WFH is becoming more normal.
- clvx 6y ago
  It isn't becoming normal, it's being forced due many factors: risk of getting sick with no proper treatment, possible schools not opening which forces to deal with your kids, no vaccine, etc.
  - aminozuur 6y ago
    "A Gallup poll found a majority of American adults working from home would prefer to continue doing so “as much as possible” after the pandemic."
    - techsupporter 6y ago
      The word "possible" is doing a lot of work in that quote. Notably, if enough people go back to the office because they prefer to do so--especially if they're managers or others who can influence things like good reviews and higher raises--there will certainly be a tipping point where more people see themselves as "needing" to return to the office in order to further their careers and money. And if even more people return, the habits like remembering to make meetings accessible to people who aren't physically present will fade. Not that meetings were particularly accessible, even in many tech industry companies, before. Conference room audio equipment is quite bad in a lot of places. Possible seems to me to mean if almost all people in a company, group, or department are working remotely, if working remotely isn't seen as a career impediment (or working in the office isn't viewed as more of a boost than working remotely would take away from), and if people can still participate in groups, then perhaps. What I figure we will see is a hybrid, where people are in the office a day or two per week and at home the rest of the time. That still means you have to be within commuting distance of an office and still have to make child care and other appointment arrangements.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    Many people have gotten a taste and are not going to go back. I know multiple people who are now making remote work (not just covid-predicated) a requirement for their new job search.
monkeydust 6y ago
Think this is a smart move - a LOT of other companies spending energy trying to figure out when and how to phase people coming back to the office, this approach shifts it down the road and says lets just focus on executing here and now. Reality is if people did start coming back to office that could easily get reversed in a few months. So again I like the idea of kicking the problem down the road given what we know today.
- mox1 6y ago
  A friends company is planning on bringing 50% back to the office in October. Which effectively means instead of 4-8 hours of Zoom meetings at his house, he can take them sitting at his desk in the building, while the other 50% sit at home. Not sure how well that is going to work out. This is an old school Financial company though, so it's not overly surprising.
  - Loughla 6y ago
    My (higher education) institution had a really nice gradual phase in plan. Small shifts of workers for a few months when the state opened back up, with more people coming in as we approached semester. An emphasis on in-person classes, but with options for folks who were uncomfortable with crowds. Then administration caught wind we were 14% off on students. Two days later - mandatory, everyone back in the office, no remote work to be allowed, for any reason. It's depressing, and I have no other reason to type this out, other than to complain, I guess. 99% of my, and the folks in my office's jobs can be done, effectively, remotely. But that's not an option. Just ridiculous.
    - andrewnicolalde 6y ago
      Name and shame I say
    - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
      Given that, you school must be pushing hard to have regular school in the fall with student's at the school in classroom seats and in dorms. What will happen when the extremely likey covid19 spread leads to a sudden closing of your in-person schooling?
vmchale 6y ago
So many non-government institutions can see what's obvious!
kyrra 6y ago
(Googler, opinions are my own). I'm also a WSJ subscriber, and saw this notification from WSJ before I checked my email this morning. I think there are 2 important things to take from this for those that didn't/can't read this. 1) From the article: "Mr. Pichai was swayed in part by sympathy for employees with families to plan for uncertain school years that may involve at-home instruction, depending on geography. It also frees staff to sign full-year leases elsewhere if they choose to move." 2) This does not mean offices will remained closed. If Google is able, they will open offices and allow people to return, if employees chose to. This is more about giving people more options.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  The school year thing is going to be a big deal for a lot of employers. Schools here are either doing full online or "hybrid", where half the time your kid is at home. In either case, working five days a week at the office isn't going to work for a lot of people this year, regardless of the safety of being at the office.
  - ryneandal 6y ago
    My wife and I have already opted in to the virtual option provided here in South Dakota. I'm diabetic and she's pregnant, thankfully we're in a position where we both work remotely and my employer is incredibly flexible for at-home needs, particularly right now. This whole pandemic situation has really opened up my wife's eyes re: my reasoning for insisting on working remotely.
    - tylermac1 6y ago
      Hey fellow South Dakotan. I've been working remotely here for over 5 years. If you want someone to chat with my twitter is tyler_mcentee
      - ryneandal 6y ago
        Oh awesome, another Dakotan. We'll have to grab a coffee or something if you're in the SF area.
jacquesm 6y ago
The cynic in me sees the cost savings. Suddenly you're at work 24/7; no office space or workplace overhead, no office perks or food.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  You should be paid well enough that free food isn't a factor. This is truly a FAANG world problem.
  - isatty 6y ago
    (I work for Google but opinions are my own) It’s more about convenience than the cost.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
      And the convenience is something that you simply cannot replicate with money right now. The only way to place gyms, makerspaces, and all the other fancy amenities right next to everyone's house would be to have very dense "techie towns" where the population (would have to he at the very least hundreds, better thousands) are all roughly like-minded, and even then you'd have issues with access control and trust (which requires a lot less friction inside a company, where too-far-out-of-bounds behavior is kept in check by the implied collateral of your high-paying job).
      - sneak 6y ago
        Or, just, you know, a city with modern density levels. This is entirely achievable even without some “techie town” if the density of an urban area is sufficient, as it is in many cities in the world.
        tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
        The city would have to be really dense to put all of this within 5-10 minutes door-to-door distance.
bluesquared 6y ago
As someone at a non-silicon valley non-FAANG company, how are those guys treating their hardware teams? As an embedded hardware engineer, I've been coming in to the office on an "as necessary" basis. Reading between the lines, I'm rolling my eyes. 99% of what I do can be done at home with the equipment I have, yet our business unit has been the one R&D group expected to have butts-in-seats the whole "shutdown" due to being an "essential" (i.e. medical devices) business. Hearing all of these tech companies taking the pandemic seriously is giving me some serious grass-is-always-greener feelings.
- jsolson 6y ago
  I have access to my (Google) building to allow me to get to the hardware lab there, but it's somewhat discouraged to do so. Equipment is not to leave the lab, but we are encouraged to set things up to allow as much to happen remotely as possible. So I've got remote power, remote debug probes, a brace of EM100 QSPI emulators, etc. The net result is that unless I need to physically change the cabling on something I can work from home. I work on data center hardware which makes this pretty practical. I don't know how folks on the consumer side of things are faring.
  - Rafuino 6y ago
    I have a Googler friend in the consumer hardware side, and I heard they're given more freedom to bring equipment home with them...
- iaw 6y ago
  Roommate works in hardware at a FAANG, they were the first "back" in the office but since he doesn't really need to do lab work (he coordinates with overseas vendors) he only goes in once a week. They are serious about not having people come in unless they need to be there for there work (e.g. actual design and testing).
- sulam 6y ago
  Silicon Valley non-FAANG hardware + software company here: If you need a lab, you are allowed to use it with approval from your VP. If you don't, you WFH.
sushshshsh 6y ago
If I was able to receive a definite answer from my employer about a real remote date, I would have purchased a house for under 100k in Montana months ago by now.
- tantalor 6y ago
  Do it if that's what you want!
- doopy-loopy2 6y ago
  I'm sure a small percentage of people would do the same! On the other hand, I think the large majority of people want to go back to the office (once it is safe to do so)
  - dannyw 6y ago
    Citation needed on the large majority of people wanting to go back to the office? Anecdotally, a significant number of my colleagues hope to be able to remote forever. Some are looking at finally realizing their dreams of buying a nice home; a third of the price as it'd cost in the city.
    - tdeck 6y ago
      Two of my teammates have literally moved out of state. When I do go back to the office it's still going to be a smaller circle.
  - burlesona 6y ago
    Have surveyed this at my (large) office and it’s about 50/50. I don’t know what the exact numbers would be aggregated across the entire population, but from comparing surveys across my own office and several other large companies I think there are two large minority positions (want to WFH forever / want back in office) and a third slice of undecideds.
    - axk 6y ago
lsllc 6y ago
Anyone know what the US tax implications are of long-term working from home, specifically for deducting "home costs" for the employee?
- cycrutchfield 6y ago
  I’m not a tax expert but my recollection is that the 2018 tax reform bill removed the ability to deduct home costs from your federal taxes. However, some states may still allow such deductions.
  - lsllc 6y ago
    Figures. What if I check the 1040 "Billionaire" box (the one that says "enter $0 on line 16")? /s
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  You can’t deduct home office costs. Working from another state has complexities too. But the money saved from not living in the bay more than pays for the CPA.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  you can't deduct home costs unless you want to get visited by the IRS. If you are running your own business it's fairly easy, if you're working for someone else as a direct employee DON'T DO IT. you will get audited and have to pay those taxes and penalties if you're lucky and don't get charged with tax fraud. It's not worth it. If you need to set up something expensive make your employer buy it (new computer you are borrowing, laptop, audio equipment, whatever) and give it back to them when you quit/get fired/done with it.
- deepakhj 6y ago
  https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2226/2020-05-08-refresher-california-reimbursement-requirements-covid-19 https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2226/2020-0...
duxup 6y ago
I worked from a company that was acquired and about 1/4the people in the building were left working in a building for about 4x the number of people there. All the layoff horror aside, it was glorious working there for a while before they started renting the unused space. The executive bathrooms were real treat. it was always quiet, every common space was sort of a private lounge. I wonder if folks in the office are having the same experience.
grazhero99 6y ago
I find it interesting how this situation is beginning to feel normal to me. I'm only 20, so I've never really consciously lived through a world event of anything even approaching this magnitude before. I'm finding that my whole outlook on life is being majorly altered by all this. As utterly horrible and tragic as everything is right now, I'm hopeful this will ultimately turn out to result in some positive lifestyle changes for me at a personal level, as long as I don't die.
- mikestew 6y ago
  I'm only 20, so I've never really consciously lived through a world event of anything even approaching this magnitude before. Those of us approaching 60 haven't, either. Arguably the Cold War, but unless I happened to watch The Day After recently, I never gave that much thought.
d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago
My how things change. Last year my manager and director at Google wouldn’t let me be away from the office to work from another location for 2 weeks without forcing me to take a family leave. To quote “remote doesn’t work, if you can’t be in the office you need to take a leave or vacation”. Apparently those two L7 geniuses weren’t consulted before this decision :)
- FreakyT 6y ago
  Honestly, I still think remote work doesn't work. The sole exception, however, that it can sort of work if everyone else is also remote.
  - wlll 6y ago
    I've been working remotely for ~12 years now, it's working just fine for me thanks. I'm incredibly productive and I am producing good work.
    - whateveracct 6y ago
      It also doesn't matter if you would be more productive in-person or not. Maximizing productivity isn't some moral truth we must satisfy. Corporations for good reason try to get workers to think it is.
      - aeronaute 6y ago
        Glad to see you bring this up because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I get the feeling that many people are on board with the idea that productivity trumps all and are willing to be like rags to be squeezed by their employers until every last productivity drop comes out. I think this needs to be talked about more with an eye towards reducing the amount people must work.
      - brandmeyer 6y ago
        Its not a moral truth, its an economic one. If you want to charge a premium price for your labor, you had better be offering a premium product, or your customers won't buy it.
VikingCoder 6y ago
I'm ready for high-tech, work-from-home workers to build a trailer park in some remote location (as long as it has great internet), where you have to quarantine for two weeks on the way in, but once you're in your kid gets to go to school with other kids the same age, your infant gets to go to daycare. I mean, really, a lot of Bay Area people would probably end up with MORE living space in a mobile home. Either that, or maybe I should just be trying to move to New Zealand.
- sneak 6y ago
  Next year, thanks to Starlink, all remote locations in the continental US will have great internet. https://sneak.berlin/20200129/starlink/ https://sneak.berlin/20200129/starlink/
  - VikingCoder 6y ago
    I'm hopeful, but skeptical.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Eternal September is about to get turned to 11.
- nwsm 6y ago
  This is what Bay Area techies wish the Bay Area was
- ngngngng 6y ago
  I would love to move to New Zealand, but I don't want to renounce my US citizenship and I don't want to pay double income tax.
  - otoburb 6y ago
    Why would you need to renounce US citizenship, and why would you pay double income tax? The US has a tax treaty with New Zealand[1] to minimize (but not eliminate) these types of double-taxation issues. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/newzld.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/newzld.pdf
once-in-a-while 6y ago
What pandemic? Total mortal rate winter/spring 2019 higher than 2020 (for those not good at maths: winter/spring 2020 lower than 2019). So, let's repeat the basic question: WHAT PANDEMIC? If you trust maths (and you probably should...), then if you know the numbers and still talk of a "pandemic", you have a mental issue and should reach out for help ASAP.
eezurr 6y ago
There's a lot of celebrating about working from home and the convenience that brings, but there is no free lunch. A social trade off: now it is (the people who WFH) your responsibility to separate your work/family/life boundaries. I cant speak from experience (introvert, no family), but I think I understand people enough that many will be lulled by the convenience/comfort and not put enough effort into keeping those boundaries up. Expanding: your routine before the shutdown (gym, night classes, public talks, etc). Each of those now require two trips to participate (to and from), instead of hitting them up after (or during) work -> more effort to keep boundaries up. Additionally, staying in the same place all day cuts out hundreds/thousands of opportunities (over a year) to meet people. I disagree with people pushing for WFH to become the norm. As convenient as it is, I think it is a net negative to society/our social fabric. IMO, life is already too convenient. That being said, it may be possible for local (neighborhood/town) culture to bloom. It will be challenging in our hyper-political, 'can find people who agree with me anywhere in the world' environment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place There was an HN post with great discussion that I cannot find about the wiki article. Third place's were already in decline in the USA. Lastly: This has been posted many times, but many of the employers costs could be transferred to the employee in a WFH environment. EDIT: I should add, I've been working from home for > 5 years and live in a big city. I've watched my self discipline decline over the years (or maybe that's due to getting older, or being too comfortable). It's been very difficult to build a social network of friends.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > There's a lot of celebrating about working from home and the convenience that brings, but there is no free lunch. A social trade off: now it is (the people who WFH) your responsibility to separate your work/family/life boundaries. I cant speak from experience (introvert, no family), but I think I understand people enough that many will be lulled by the convenience/comfort and not put enough effort into keeping those boundaries up. Expanding: your routine before the shutdown (gym, night classes, public talks, etc). Each of those now require two trips to participate (to and from), instead of hitting them up after (or during) work -> more effort to keep boundaries up. I'm also an introvert and live alone, so I guess I don't have much to offer on this topic. all I can say is that setting these sorts of boundaries is something we already expect from college students, who conduct pretty much their entire life (work, sleep, socializing) on a fairly small patch of earth. in college, it's very tempting to let social time bleed into "work time" or (for some) to let work strangle their social life out of existence. but to graduate college at all proves that you have at least some ability to manage work/life balance without the aid of strong physical boundaries. as far as third places go, I would expect WFH to be a major boon if it weren't happening in the midst of social distancing. I feel like I have much more energy to go out and do stuff after a day of working from home than I normally would after my thirty minute commute.
vmception 6y ago
Extend and pretend!
paulpan 6y ago
While this was probably a necessary move due to ongoing covid19 impact on families as well as pressure from other companies (e.g. FB and Twitter having announced broader WFH policies), it's fascinating to see Google do this and how it'll impact their workforce in the longer term. Google arguably pioneered the model of "office will have everything you need" to incentive current employees to come to the office as well as lure new recruits. It's been a win-win for the company and the employees: Google gets focus/dedication and the synergies of colocation, whereas employees can enjoy the many onsite perks. One major irony is that for a company that sells products that facilitate and enable WFH, such as the GSuite, it's actually not very open to allowing its employees to WFH. Covid19 has seemingly forced the company to change, or at least adapt in the short term. But what happens in 2-3 years? As tech employees everywhere are used to WFH, Google probably needs to de-emphasize the onsite requirement aspect and consequently change their culture/workplace model.
- Panini_Jones 6y ago
  I am not a fan of WFH. One thing I do wonder though is, now that I've bought thousands of dollars worth of home office and gym equipment, why would I want to forfeit that? I suspect many employees who sprung for the HM chair and the standing desks won't want to leave those unused at home very easily.
  - esoterica 6y ago
    That's easy, just give up work-life balance and work another 40 hours a week at home on top of the 40 at the office.
- hinkley 6y ago
  > Google arguably pioneered the model of "office will have everything you need" No, that was company towns, which are frontier era. 'We provide everything you need' is also a good way to run a cult. The cost of leaving is that you lose everything, including friends and family. Right now Google can't get your whole family working at the company so they don't have quite the lock on people that they could.
akyu 6y ago
And this marks peak tech salary.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/8XT8c https://archive.is/8XT8c
lrnStats 6y ago
This is the first person/company that actually has a realistic (still optimistic) Coronavirus timeline. Prior to this, everyone had unrealistic "fall 2020", then pushed to "January 2021". This still assumes a vaccine and production of the vaccine will be finished in under a year. A more realistic estimate seems to be 2022. I don't understand why this is so hard, you can look at pandemic physics to know that Coronavirus is not going anywhere. And you can look at previous vaccine and medical production to understand how long it takes to make hundreds of millions or billions of vaccines. Are most people willfully ignorant?
- tmountain 6y ago
  I think it's such a hard pill to swallow that it's easier for a lot of people to incrementally move the goal posts from a psychological perspective. Nobody wants to suggest 2022--lest it become real from the mere suggestion that this is the case. Everyone keeps talking about a vaccine, but I don't see a lot of people facing the realities of what will be required for the vaccine to succeed (70% of the population inoculated). Nobody wants to talk about the potential for a less than desired durability in the vaccine (i.e., the scenario where you might need to be vaccinated 4x per year). All of this just seems to be too soul crushing and horrific to make it part of the regular dialogue, and I understand why--the reality is brutal.
  - lrnStats 6y ago
    But increments cause bad decisions to be made.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
In some ways it’s actually kind of annoying to get a medium-term commitment. My partner’s job at Google can be (and of course recently has been) done remotely. We would rather move somewhere cheaper and closer to family, rather than being chained to a particular office location. Now we have confirmation that remote work is basically all fine, except we can’t take real advantage of it because there‘s no reason to think it will continue to be possible in the future. I appreciate that companies are offering flexibility, but it would definitely be better if there was more thinking being done about the long-term restructuring of work.
- pb7 6y ago
  >I appreciate that companies are offering flexibility, but it would definitely be better if there was more thinking being done about the long-term restructuring of work. There is. Your partner has information on that internally. It's a big decision for a company of 120,000+ full time employees across 150 countries so it will take time to figure out a permanent plan going forward.
  - matthewmacleod 6y ago
    That’s a fair point. I was a little annoyed to hear a kind of vague medium-term plan today rather than something more firm or adventurous, but it’s fair to say that it’s understandable given the scope of the change.
    - pb7 6y ago
      Very fair but I think even announcing a 1 year plan is incredibly fair given that many similar companies (e.g. Apple) are still WFH on an ongoing basis, ready to come back as soon as the COVID rates hit a certain threshold. Now that would suck.
- qmarchi 6y ago
  (Googler, opinions are my own) Personally, I think it's because of Google's focus on collaboration at all costs internally, which just isn't possible if everyone is working remote. IMs and Meets can only get you so far, but there's no substitute for overhearing a co-worker chatting about something or popping over next to them for a moment to see what they're working on.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
danans 6y ago
Google employee, but opinions are my own. As a parent I'm grateful for the flexibility to choose where I work until next summer, however it has become very clear to me that a large number of lower-income essential workers who are parents are currently facing a major childcare crisis because they have to return to work despite schools being closed. This is really revealing underlying disparities in childcare access and the inequities in our education system. Given the immediacy and severity of this crisis, people in my community are trying to figure out if they can repurpose existing social service foundations, like school PTAs, to raise funds from more well off community members to support others who are in this sort of childcare bind. But it's very hard going, not at the least because everyone is in their own personal logistical crisis and it's hard to think about others' childcare needs when you are trying to figure out your own.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  My child goes to a small-ish catholic school and coming up with plans for childcare and other services have been a big focus, at least on a contingency basis as everyone expects that school will not remain open in-person for long. Utilizing PTOs and such have been a big part of that. It's tough that school districts and municipal gov are all on their own to plan things, and the lack of consistency makes it impossible to collaborate.
  - aeternum 6y ago
    I see the lack of consistency (diversity) to be a good thing. This is a unique situation, doesn't it make sense to try many things and then converge on what works? Education has been mostly unchanged over the last 100+ years, it's probably time to try some new ideas.
    - danans 6y ago
      There will be 2 separate subgroups of "diverse" approaches. One group of approaches will be used by people with money who spend it on innovative small group supplemental learning/childcare pods via hired tutors. The other group of approaches will those used by those with very limited means scraping together whatever childcare they can afford with little ability to tend to academics or social development. Which group of approaches would you want your child in?
jonp888 6y ago
Everybody seems to be celebrating the opportunity spend more time at home, but I have the opposite view. I live alone(it seemed like a good idea at the time[pre-corona]). My family lives hundreds of miles away on a different land mass. At the weekends I can meet up with people and do activities, but everything I used to do midweek(e.g. swim training) is now shutdown indefinitely due to Coronavirus. I am utterly miserable in Home Office. It means from weekend to weekend I have no human contact with anyone except my reflection in the mirror. I have no idea what to do. If I demand to work from the office just so they I get the chance to occasionally chat to someone, it takes away valuable capacity from people that actually need it.
- ericye16 6y ago
  Could you work at home where your family is? I'm in a similar spot and seriously considering it.
- noman-land 6y ago
  Considering the way you explained your situation, it doesn't sound like you'd be taking away anything from anyone more deserving. You sound like you need that valuable capacity as well.
- nouveau0 6y ago
  I feel you. I'm going through the same thing. I'm an introvert who recently became extrovert and I can't do 90% of the activities that made me an extrovert. Here's how I'm coping: 1. Reactivated my introvert side with a) Reading more books b) Learning to play music c) Online singing lessons d) Exercising at home: i) Strength ii) Following through Supple Leopard (book) 2. Going outside once a day for a walk. No exceptions. 3. Chill at the emptiest park on the weekend. 4. Going on a hike during on some weekends. 5. Small talk and saying Hi to random people on the street. 6. Cleaning the house
  - zepearl 6y ago
    (same profile & problems here) I started two weeks ago with #2 (a ~10 minutes walk in the morning) and it does seem to have a positive impact (more relaxed while working, less feeling of being "stuck at home"). Concerning #1a I started reading again some books that I already read in the past, but in a different language. Additionally: cooking. I previouly used to cook just some veeery basic stuff but now I tend to experiment more and raise a little bit the difficulty level (e.g. Tom Kha Gai soup, fish cooked in the owen, etc...) => interesting, and it changes a bit your usual day, and it provides something about which you can talk to other people => nice (but dangerous - always have a plan B available, hehe)
aaroninsf 6y ago
Absent from most coverage: This and the related issue of school closure, are necessitated only because in this country we were incapable of embracing, or even in any meaningful way, articulating, the necessary and obvious solution to this pandemic: • support individuals and businesses 100%, while • developing effective test, trace, treat, and control There is no mystery here. The examples of successful variants are everywhere: literally, everywhere else in the first and some of the second world. The arguments for UBI, single payer, and not least, the eradication of right-wing indoctrination networks which cultivate a meaningful subset of the populace to be uninformed, uninformable tribal victimhood-rage-junkies divorced from consensus reality and hostile to science, have never been more stark. Yet nowhere are these self-evident truths being articulated, debated, trumpeted, defended, forced. Every vehicle which the right habitually paints as "left" liberal or biases that I follow, is so laughably mealy-mouthed, equivocating, both-siding, and self-constrained in its framing, let alone advocacy, as to provoke nihlistic despair. The question is not why Google is resigning itself to WFH. The question is not why employees must now form micro-schooling pods out of pocket. The question is why there are not pitchforks and torches forcing the obvious basic systemic change in this country necessary to bring us in-line with every other functional variant of 21st c. intelligent capitalism. We have been committed by short-sighted billionaires who backed social tribalism as a tactic to wealth consolidation, to a path of total cultural and political self-destruction. So f--king tiresome and so, so, so unnecessary.
acituan 6y ago
As other comments mention protracted WFH reveals and expands many inequities; - A good chunk of the FAANG workers are young immigrants, which means they cannot move back to their parents’. Whereas most of their American counterparts can do this if they choose to and enjoy multiple benefits from rent savings to moral support of having a community. - A good majority of the workers are single young adults. Multiyear shutdowns including the office space will make couplings suffer. It is already harder for immigrants to find partners (e.g. large intercultural gaps) but this not only amplifies the current isolation but also delays people’s life goals significantly. - A good portion of the workforce don’t have enough savings for a downpayment and usually live in HCOL locations, which means they are renting smallish apartments. When the primary locale is home, it makes a huge difference what that home is like. Be it sufficient noise isolation from neighbors, to having space for exercise / hobbies (even more important where gyms and other entertainment venues are closed), a dedicated office, a yard to get some sunshine and fresh air. I forsee mental health of these demographics taking an extra hit that will ripple for the next several years, even decades.
siculars 6y ago
What really hasn't gotten the same level of attention is the fact that Googlers will be able to work from anywhere in the country their main office is located in. I predict there will be some exodus of Googlers from places like NYC, SF/Bay, LA and Seattle for places like Austin, Colorado and Florida. Edit. I have two small kids and child care has been the bane of my existence since March. This (and flex time) has definitely helped my families situation. I'm grateful for the luxury and I'm deeply concerned for everyone who is in this situation without this flexibility (friends and family included). /Googler living in a middle state, thoughts my own.
finnjohnsen2 6y ago
Feel bad for people in the US, which seems to effectively to be back to March/April.
kshacker 6y ago
So a mischievous question : if everyone can work from home, which means they can work from anywhere and not really needed in USA, will Google reduce H-1B applications for the next year?
ryanSrich 6y ago
Why not work from home forever? If it works now it’ll work in a year.
sushshshsh 6y ago
The government wouldn't let Google create housing at the site of its office, so it created Google offices at the sites of its employees :)

413 points by tysone 6y ago

If everyone's moving to remote working. Do you believe this will push for dumping wages as well? I don't mean moving jobs to India, but rather recruit remote workers in relative low-income areas of the US? Not discrediting the amount of skills available on the US East coast but why wouldn't FAANG try to source new remote employees elsewhere in the US?

save_ferris 6y ago
Some employers will probably try, but since I've moved to a lower-income area of the US, I've noticed that there aren't a ton of other developers in my community, especially with 5+ yrs experience. I think location will factor more into salary discussions moving foward, but it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks.
- Loughla 6y ago
  >it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks. Yet. That's the point. They're in places like SV, because they're required to be, right now. If remote work really takes hold, and folks can move to places like South Dakota, I bet that changes. That's the entire point. Right now there aren't folks out there, but there will be in the next 1-3 years, I imagine.
  - jakemal 6y ago
    Also, South Dakota is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from SV. Today, there is a sizeable population of talented developers living in the suburbs of major cities with a COL of a third or less than the Bay area.
  - neonate 6y ago
    If this became a big enough trend, I wonder if it could lead to a revitalization of rural America.
    - Loughla 6y ago
      I mean, the nearest town to me (pop.<600) has fiber internet. Many rural/small towns have local co-ops that no one talks about who are offering fiber. What else would you need?
      - charwalker 6y ago
        Personally, a fairly liberal set of laws in place to maintain my current set of rights and options let alone those for my female partner. I won't be moving to a state that insists in conservative social policies like banning abortion and cutting education or basic infrastructure under the guise of lowering taxes. I like living in a functional democracy, at as a state, and happy to pay taxes for things like better schools and roads.
        Loughla 6y ago
        That's actually one thing I really like about living in a Northern Rural area. The rural attitude of 'live and let live' and 'leave me the fuck alone' carries over to relationships and home life. Nobody really cares about my relationship with my partner, as long as I'm willing to leave them the fuck alone. I say 'northern' rural area, just because I've never lived in a rural area in the south of the US.
        charwalker 6y ago
        I don't have anything against that or moving to a location that meets your values. It's more that I'd prefer to support schools and social programs, and have those open to me as best as possible, than get away from it all. I've been in a spot where if it wasn't for the ACA I'd be dead (specifically extension of parents insurance until child is 26) and if I didn't have strong local schools growing up I probably wouldn't have gone far. We do better when we work together and pool resources for all, including the next generation. It's hard for me to be a part of that by moving somewhere rural. And I can't bring myself to move to a red state unless it's flipping purple and willing to basically pull a Virginia. The social rights differences between colors is serious and unfortunate.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  >it's not like there are a ton of software devs in South Dakota ready to take the jobs of the SV folks. There are tons of software developers in Canada though.
miguelmota 6y ago
Wages typically match the market rate salaries of the employees location so it's expected that remote workers wages will be lower. Many employers are not offering promotions and bonuses now because of the coronavirus uncertainty. I do think companies will try to recruit employees from anywhere now instead of local or domestic since theres no office to go into now.

varbhat 6y ago

Good thing. I think that other major companies too will follow the same step Google has taken now(WFH). PS: Typing this wondering when the corona phases out.

eclipxe 6y ago
Once there is a vaccine in the US, readily available.
- sb52191 6y ago
  I'm not even sure I believe this anymore. Seeing how many people out there believe masks are BAD for you makes me skeptical that most people will actually get the vaccine...
- yazaddaruvala 6y ago
  Keep in mind (from a pandemic perspective): - The current population density of urban and suburban areas, is prone to pandemic scale events. However, density is great for a lot of reasons and this trend will continue. - The latency and throughput of travel being so good, is prone to pandemic scale events. However, current travel is great for a lot of reasons and improving latency and throughput will continue. - Bio-engineering advancing quickly, will be prone to cause pandemic scale events. However, we need to advance this domain for better medical treatments. With these points above, the next large-scale, remote-work event is guaranteed, the only question is when. Keep in mind (from a for-profit corporation perspective): - They value stable productivity rather than productivity peaks and throughs. - Land, buildings and infrastructure are 15% of employee costs. - Pandemics are not the only form of churn requiring remote work, so are natural and unnatural disasters, etc. - Reacting to the event, will always lag the event. Creating a vaccine or cleaning up a fire / flood / earthquake will require a few months at the least, everytime. As a company making a decision today: - If the employees working remotely have less than 15% productivity loss (but the company pays 15% less for real-estate), then remote-work is viable today. Like with Google, et-al. - If the employees working remotely have a noticeable (i.e. 15% or more) productivity loss, then remote-work is not a viable option. However, maybe the increased stability is worthwhile for the company, and remote-work will be deemed viable. In either case, it seems like a no-brainier to start investing into tooling to support automation or remote-work with increased productivity (Slack, Oculus, remote controlled robots, etc). While the word "covid" will phase out, the mentality of remote-work and hyper-hygiene (e.g. masks and hand sanitizers) will only accelerate. This is similar to the change of era where "parents allowed the kids to play outdoors, unsupervised", these eras are sadly over.

aminozuur 6y ago

I'm pleased to see that WFH is becoming more normal.

clvx 6y ago
It isn't becoming normal, it's being forced due many factors: risk of getting sick with no proper treatment, possible schools not opening which forces to deal with your kids, no vaccine, etc.
- aminozuur 6y ago
  "A Gallup poll found a majority of American adults working from home would prefer to continue doing so “as much as possible” after the pandemic."
  - techsupporter 6y ago
    The word "possible" is doing a lot of work in that quote. Notably, if enough people go back to the office because they prefer to do so--especially if they're managers or others who can influence things like good reviews and higher raises--there will certainly be a tipping point where more people see themselves as "needing" to return to the office in order to further their careers and money. And if even more people return, the habits like remembering to make meetings accessible to people who aren't physically present will fade. Not that meetings were particularly accessible, even in many tech industry companies, before. Conference room audio equipment is quite bad in a lot of places. Possible seems to me to mean if almost all people in a company, group, or department are working remotely, if working remotely isn't seen as a career impediment (or working in the office isn't viewed as more of a boost than working remotely would take away from), and if people can still participate in groups, then perhaps. What I figure we will see is a hybrid, where people are in the office a day or two per week and at home the rest of the time. That still means you have to be within commuting distance of an office and still have to make child care and other appointment arrangements.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  Many people have gotten a taste and are not going to go back. I know multiple people who are now making remote work (not just covid-predicated) a requirement for their new job search.

monkeydust 6y ago

Think this is a smart move - a LOT of other companies spending energy trying to figure out when and how to phase people coming back to the office, this approach shifts it down the road and says lets just focus on executing here and now. Reality is if people did start coming back to office that could easily get reversed in a few months. So again I like the idea of kicking the problem down the road given what we know today.

mox1 6y ago
A friends company is planning on bringing 50% back to the office in October. Which effectively means instead of 4-8 hours of Zoom meetings at his house, he can take them sitting at his desk in the building, while the other 50% sit at home. Not sure how well that is going to work out. This is an old school Financial company though, so it's not overly surprising.
- Loughla 6y ago
  My (higher education) institution had a really nice gradual phase in plan. Small shifts of workers for a few months when the state opened back up, with more people coming in as we approached semester. An emphasis on in-person classes, but with options for folks who were uncomfortable with crowds. Then administration caught wind we were 14% off on students. Two days later - mandatory, everyone back in the office, no remote work to be allowed, for any reason. It's depressing, and I have no other reason to type this out, other than to complain, I guess. 99% of my, and the folks in my office's jobs can be done, effectively, remotely. But that's not an option. Just ridiculous.
  - andrewnicolalde 6y ago
    Name and shame I say
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    Given that, you school must be pushing hard to have regular school in the fall with student's at the school in classroom seats and in dorms. What will happen when the extremely likey covid19 spread leads to a sudden closing of your in-person schooling?

vmchale 6y ago

So many non-government institutions can see what's obvious!

kyrra 6y ago

(Googler, opinions are my own). I'm also a WSJ subscriber, and saw this notification from WSJ before I checked my email this morning. I think there are 2 important things to take from this for those that didn't/can't read this. 1) From the article: "Mr. Pichai was swayed in part by sympathy for employees with families to plan for uncertain school years that may involve at-home instruction, depending on geography. It also frees staff to sign full-year leases elsewhere if they choose to move." 2) This does not mean offices will remained closed. If Google is able, they will open offices and allow people to return, if employees chose to. This is more about giving people more options.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
The school year thing is going to be a big deal for a lot of employers. Schools here are either doing full online or "hybrid", where half the time your kid is at home. In either case, working five days a week at the office isn't going to work for a lot of people this year, regardless of the safety of being at the office.
- ryneandal 6y ago
  My wife and I have already opted in to the virtual option provided here in South Dakota. I'm diabetic and she's pregnant, thankfully we're in a position where we both work remotely and my employer is incredibly flexible for at-home needs, particularly right now. This whole pandemic situation has really opened up my wife's eyes re: my reasoning for insisting on working remotely.
  - tylermac1 6y ago
    Hey fellow South Dakotan. I've been working remotely here for over 5 years. If you want someone to chat with my twitter is tyler_mcentee
    - ryneandal 6y ago
      Oh awesome, another Dakotan. We'll have to grab a coffee or something if you're in the SF area.

jacquesm 6y ago

The cynic in me sees the cost savings. Suddenly you're at work 24/7; no office space or workplace overhead, no office perks or food.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
You should be paid well enough that free food isn't a factor. This is truly a FAANG world problem.
- isatty 6y ago
  (I work for Google but opinions are my own) It’s more about convenience than the cost.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
    And the convenience is something that you simply cannot replicate with money right now. The only way to place gyms, makerspaces, and all the other fancy amenities right next to everyone's house would be to have very dense "techie towns" where the population (would have to he at the very least hundreds, better thousands) are all roughly like-minded, and even then you'd have issues with access control and trust (which requires a lot less friction inside a company, where too-far-out-of-bounds behavior is kept in check by the implied collateral of your high-paying job).
    - sneak 6y ago
      Or, just, you know, a city with modern density levels. This is entirely achievable even without some “techie town” if the density of an urban area is sufficient, as it is in many cities in the world.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
        The city would have to be really dense to put all of this within 5-10 minutes door-to-door distance.

bluesquared 6y ago

As someone at a non-silicon valley non-FAANG company, how are those guys treating their hardware teams? As an embedded hardware engineer, I've been coming in to the office on an "as necessary" basis. Reading between the lines, I'm rolling my eyes. 99% of what I do can be done at home with the equipment I have, yet our business unit has been the one R&D group expected to have butts-in-seats the whole "shutdown" due to being an "essential" (i.e. medical devices) business. Hearing all of these tech companies taking the pandemic seriously is giving me some serious grass-is-always-greener feelings.

jsolson 6y ago
I have access to my (Google) building to allow me to get to the hardware lab there, but it's somewhat discouraged to do so. Equipment is not to leave the lab, but we are encouraged to set things up to allow as much to happen remotely as possible. So I've got remote power, remote debug probes, a brace of EM100 QSPI emulators, etc. The net result is that unless I need to physically change the cabling on something I can work from home. I work on data center hardware which makes this pretty practical. I don't know how folks on the consumer side of things are faring.
- Rafuino 6y ago
  I have a Googler friend in the consumer hardware side, and I heard they're given more freedom to bring equipment home with them...
iaw 6y ago
Roommate works in hardware at a FAANG, they were the first "back" in the office but since he doesn't really need to do lab work (he coordinates with overseas vendors) he only goes in once a week. They are serious about not having people come in unless they need to be there for there work (e.g. actual design and testing).
sulam 6y ago
Silicon Valley non-FAANG hardware + software company here: If you need a lab, you are allowed to use it with approval from your VP. If you don't, you WFH.

sushshshsh 6y ago

If I was able to receive a definite answer from my employer about a real remote date, I would have purchased a house for under 100k in Montana months ago by now.

tantalor 6y ago
Do it if that's what you want!
doopy-loopy2 6y ago
I'm sure a small percentage of people would do the same! On the other hand, I think the large majority of people want to go back to the office (once it is safe to do so)
- dannyw 6y ago
  Citation needed on the large majority of people wanting to go back to the office? Anecdotally, a significant number of my colleagues hope to be able to remote forever. Some are looking at finally realizing their dreams of buying a nice home; a third of the price as it'd cost in the city.
  - tdeck 6y ago
    Two of my teammates have literally moved out of state. When I do go back to the office it's still going to be a smaller circle.
- burlesona 6y ago
  Have surveyed this at my (large) office and it’s about 50/50. I don’t know what the exact numbers would be aggregated across the entire population, but from comparing surveys across my own office and several other large companies I think there are two large minority positions (want to WFH forever / want back in office) and a third slice of undecideds.
  - axk 6y ago

lsllc 6y ago

Anyone know what the US tax implications are of long-term working from home, specifically for deducting "home costs" for the employee?

cycrutchfield 6y ago
I’m not a tax expert but my recollection is that the 2018 tax reform bill removed the ability to deduct home costs from your federal taxes. However, some states may still allow such deductions.
- lsllc 6y ago
  Figures. What if I check the 1040 "Billionaire" box (the one that says "enter $0 on line 16")? /s
UncleMeat 6y ago
You can’t deduct home office costs. Working from another state has complexities too. But the money saved from not living in the bay more than pays for the CPA.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
you can't deduct home costs unless you want to get visited by the IRS. If you are running your own business it's fairly easy, if you're working for someone else as a direct employee DON'T DO IT. you will get audited and have to pay those taxes and penalties if you're lucky and don't get charged with tax fraud. It's not worth it. If you need to set up something expensive make your employer buy it (new computer you are borrowing, laptop, audio equipment, whatever) and give it back to them when you quit/get fired/done with it.
deepakhj 6y ago
https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2226/2020-05-08-refresher-california-reimbursement-requirements-covid-19 https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2226/2020-0...

duxup 6y ago

I worked from a company that was acquired and about 1/4the people in the building were left working in a building for about 4x the number of people there. All the layoff horror aside, it was glorious working there for a while before they started renting the unused space. The executive bathrooms were real treat. it was always quiet, every common space was sort of a private lounge. I wonder if folks in the office are having the same experience.

grazhero99 6y ago

I find it interesting how this situation is beginning to feel normal to me. I'm only 20, so I've never really consciously lived through a world event of anything even approaching this magnitude before. I'm finding that my whole outlook on life is being majorly altered by all this. As utterly horrible and tragic as everything is right now, I'm hopeful this will ultimately turn out to result in some positive lifestyle changes for me at a personal level, as long as I don't die.

mikestew 6y ago
I'm only 20, so I've never really consciously lived through a world event of anything even approaching this magnitude before. Those of us approaching 60 haven't, either. Arguably the Cold War, but unless I happened to watch The Day After recently, I never gave that much thought.

d3ntb3ev1l 6y ago

My how things change. Last year my manager and director at Google wouldn’t let me be away from the office to work from another location for 2 weeks without forcing me to take a family leave. To quote “remote doesn’t work, if you can’t be in the office you need to take a leave or vacation”. Apparently those two L7 geniuses weren’t consulted before this decision :)

FreakyT 6y ago
Honestly, I still think remote work doesn't work. The sole exception, however, that it can sort of work if everyone else is also remote.
- wlll 6y ago
  I've been working remotely for ~12 years now, it's working just fine for me thanks. I'm incredibly productive and I am producing good work.
  - whateveracct 6y ago
    It also doesn't matter if you would be more productive in-person or not. Maximizing productivity isn't some moral truth we must satisfy. Corporations for good reason try to get workers to think it is.
    - aeronaute 6y ago
      Glad to see you bring this up because I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I get the feeling that many people are on board with the idea that productivity trumps all and are willing to be like rags to be squeezed by their employers until every last productivity drop comes out. I think this needs to be talked about more with an eye towards reducing the amount people must work.
    - brandmeyer 6y ago
      Its not a moral truth, its an economic one. If you want to charge a premium price for your labor, you had better be offering a premium product, or your customers won't buy it.

VikingCoder 6y ago

I'm ready for high-tech, work-from-home workers to build a trailer park in some remote location (as long as it has great internet), where you have to quarantine for two weeks on the way in, but once you're in your kid gets to go to school with other kids the same age, your infant gets to go to daycare. I mean, really, a lot of Bay Area people would probably end up with MORE living space in a mobile home. Either that, or maybe I should just be trying to move to New Zealand.

sneak 6y ago
Next year, thanks to Starlink, all remote locations in the continental US will have great internet. https://sneak.berlin/20200129/starlink/ https://sneak.berlin/20200129/starlink/
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  I'm hopeful, but skeptical.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Eternal September is about to get turned to 11.
nwsm 6y ago
This is what Bay Area techies wish the Bay Area was
ngngngng 6y ago
I would love to move to New Zealand, but I don't want to renounce my US citizenship and I don't want to pay double income tax.
- otoburb 6y ago
  Why would you need to renounce US citizenship, and why would you pay double income tax? The US has a tax treaty with New Zealand[1] to minimize (but not eliminate) these types of double-taxation issues. [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/newzld.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/newzld.pdf

once-in-a-while 6y ago

What pandemic? Total mortal rate winter/spring 2019 higher than 2020 (for those not good at maths: winter/spring 2020 lower than 2019). So, let's repeat the basic question: WHAT PANDEMIC? If you trust maths (and you probably should...), then if you know the numbers and still talk of a "pandemic", you have a mental issue and should reach out for help ASAP.

eezurr 6y ago

There's a lot of celebrating about working from home and the convenience that brings, but there is no free lunch. A social trade off: now it is (the people who WFH) your responsibility to separate your work/family/life boundaries. I cant speak from experience (introvert, no family), but I think I understand people enough that many will be lulled by the convenience/comfort and not put enough effort into keeping those boundaries up. Expanding: your routine before the shutdown (gym, night classes, public talks, etc). Each of those now require two trips to participate (to and from), instead of hitting them up after (or during) work -> more effort to keep boundaries up. Additionally, staying in the same place all day cuts out hundreds/thousands of opportunities (over a year) to meet people. I disagree with people pushing for WFH to become the norm. As convenient as it is, I think it is a net negative to society/our social fabric. IMO, life is already too convenient. That being said, it may be possible for local (neighborhood/town) culture to bloom. It will be challenging in our hyper-political, 'can find people who agree with me anywhere in the world' environment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place There was an HN post with great discussion that I cannot find about the wiki article. Third place's were already in decline in the USA. Lastly: This has been posted many times, but many of the employers costs could be transferred to the employee in a WFH environment. EDIT: I should add, I've been working from home for > 5 years and live in a big city. I've watched my self discipline decline over the years (or maybe that's due to getting older, or being too comfortable). It's been very difficult to build a social network of friends.

leetcrew 6y ago
> There's a lot of celebrating about working from home and the convenience that brings, but there is no free lunch. A social trade off: now it is (the people who WFH) your responsibility to separate your work/family/life boundaries. I cant speak from experience (introvert, no family), but I think I understand people enough that many will be lulled by the convenience/comfort and not put enough effort into keeping those boundaries up. Expanding: your routine before the shutdown (gym, night classes, public talks, etc). Each of those now require two trips to participate (to and from), instead of hitting them up after (or during) work -> more effort to keep boundaries up. I'm also an introvert and live alone, so I guess I don't have much to offer on this topic. all I can say is that setting these sorts of boundaries is something we already expect from college students, who conduct pretty much their entire life (work, sleep, socializing) on a fairly small patch of earth. in college, it's very tempting to let social time bleed into "work time" or (for some) to let work strangle their social life out of existence. but to graduate college at all proves that you have at least some ability to manage work/life balance without the aid of strong physical boundaries. as far as third places go, I would expect WFH to be a major boon if it weren't happening in the midst of social distancing. I feel like I have much more energy to go out and do stuff after a day of working from home than I normally would after my thirty minute commute.

vmception 6y ago

Extend and pretend!

paulpan 6y ago

While this was probably a necessary move due to ongoing covid19 impact on families as well as pressure from other companies (e.g. FB and Twitter having announced broader WFH policies), it's fascinating to see Google do this and how it'll impact their workforce in the longer term. Google arguably pioneered the model of "office will have everything you need" to incentive current employees to come to the office as well as lure new recruits. It's been a win-win for the company and the employees: Google gets focus/dedication and the synergies of colocation, whereas employees can enjoy the many onsite perks. One major irony is that for a company that sells products that facilitate and enable WFH, such as the GSuite, it's actually not very open to allowing its employees to WFH. Covid19 has seemingly forced the company to change, or at least adapt in the short term. But what happens in 2-3 years? As tech employees everywhere are used to WFH, Google probably needs to de-emphasize the onsite requirement aspect and consequently change their culture/workplace model.

Panini_Jones 6y ago
I am not a fan of WFH. One thing I do wonder though is, now that I've bought thousands of dollars worth of home office and gym equipment, why would I want to forfeit that? I suspect many employees who sprung for the HM chair and the standing desks won't want to leave those unused at home very easily.
- esoterica 6y ago
  That's easy, just give up work-life balance and work another 40 hours a week at home on top of the 40 at the office.
hinkley 6y ago
> Google arguably pioneered the model of "office will have everything you need" No, that was company towns, which are frontier era. 'We provide everything you need' is also a good way to run a cult. The cost of leaving is that you lose everything, including friends and family. Right now Google can't get your whole family working at the company so they don't have quite the lock on people that they could.

akyu 6y ago

And this marks peak tech salary.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/8XT8c https://archive.is/8XT8c

lrnStats 6y ago

This is the first person/company that actually has a realistic (still optimistic) Coronavirus timeline. Prior to this, everyone had unrealistic "fall 2020", then pushed to "January 2021". This still assumes a vaccine and production of the vaccine will be finished in under a year. A more realistic estimate seems to be 2022. I don't understand why this is so hard, you can look at pandemic physics to know that Coronavirus is not going anywhere. And you can look at previous vaccine and medical production to understand how long it takes to make hundreds of millions or billions of vaccines. Are most people willfully ignorant?

tmountain 6y ago
I think it's such a hard pill to swallow that it's easier for a lot of people to incrementally move the goal posts from a psychological perspective. Nobody wants to suggest 2022--lest it become real from the mere suggestion that this is the case. Everyone keeps talking about a vaccine, but I don't see a lot of people facing the realities of what will be required for the vaccine to succeed (70% of the population inoculated). Nobody wants to talk about the potential for a less than desired durability in the vaccine (i.e., the scenario where you might need to be vaccinated 4x per year). All of this just seems to be too soul crushing and horrific to make it part of the regular dialogue, and I understand why--the reality is brutal.
- lrnStats 6y ago
  But increments cause bad decisions to be made.

matthewmacleod 6y ago

In some ways it’s actually kind of annoying to get a medium-term commitment. My partner’s job at Google can be (and of course recently has been) done remotely. We would rather move somewhere cheaper and closer to family, rather than being chained to a particular office location. Now we have confirmation that remote work is basically all fine, except we can’t take real advantage of it because there‘s no reason to think it will continue to be possible in the future. I appreciate that companies are offering flexibility, but it would definitely be better if there was more thinking being done about the long-term restructuring of work.

pb7 6y ago
>I appreciate that companies are offering flexibility, but it would definitely be better if there was more thinking being done about the long-term restructuring of work. There is. Your partner has information on that internally. It's a big decision for a company of 120,000+ full time employees across 150 countries so it will take time to figure out a permanent plan going forward.
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  That’s a fair point. I was a little annoyed to hear a kind of vague medium-term plan today rather than something more firm or adventurous, but it’s fair to say that it’s understandable given the scope of the change.
  - pb7 6y ago
    Very fair but I think even announcing a 1 year plan is incredibly fair given that many similar companies (e.g. Apple) are still WFH on an ongoing basis, ready to come back as soon as the COVID rates hit a certain threshold. Now that would suck.
qmarchi 6y ago
(Googler, opinions are my own) Personally, I think it's because of Google's focus on collaboration at all costs internally, which just isn't possible if everyone is working remote. IMs and Meets can only get you so far, but there's no substitute for overhearing a co-worker chatting about something or popping over next to them for a moment to see what they're working on.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

danans 6y ago

Google employee, but opinions are my own. As a parent I'm grateful for the flexibility to choose where I work until next summer, however it has become very clear to me that a large number of lower-income essential workers who are parents are currently facing a major childcare crisis because they have to return to work despite schools being closed. This is really revealing underlying disparities in childcare access and the inequities in our education system. Given the immediacy and severity of this crisis, people in my community are trying to figure out if they can repurpose existing social service foundations, like school PTAs, to raise funds from more well off community members to support others who are in this sort of childcare bind. But it's very hard going, not at the least because everyone is in their own personal logistical crisis and it's hard to think about others' childcare needs when you are trying to figure out your own.

Spooky23 6y ago
My child goes to a small-ish catholic school and coming up with plans for childcare and other services have been a big focus, at least on a contingency basis as everyone expects that school will not remain open in-person for long. Utilizing PTOs and such have been a big part of that. It's tough that school districts and municipal gov are all on their own to plan things, and the lack of consistency makes it impossible to collaborate.
- aeternum 6y ago
  I see the lack of consistency (diversity) to be a good thing. This is a unique situation, doesn't it make sense to try many things and then converge on what works? Education has been mostly unchanged over the last 100+ years, it's probably time to try some new ideas.
  - danans 6y ago
    There will be 2 separate subgroups of "diverse" approaches. One group of approaches will be used by people with money who spend it on innovative small group supplemental learning/childcare pods via hired tutors. The other group of approaches will those used by those with very limited means scraping together whatever childcare they can afford with little ability to tend to academics or social development. Which group of approaches would you want your child in?

jonp888 6y ago

Everybody seems to be celebrating the opportunity spend more time at home, but I have the opposite view. I live alone(it seemed like a good idea at the time[pre-corona]). My family lives hundreds of miles away on a different land mass. At the weekends I can meet up with people and do activities, but everything I used to do midweek(e.g. swim training) is now shutdown indefinitely due to Coronavirus. I am utterly miserable in Home Office. It means from weekend to weekend I have no human contact with anyone except my reflection in the mirror. I have no idea what to do. If I demand to work from the office just so they I get the chance to occasionally chat to someone, it takes away valuable capacity from people that actually need it.

ericye16 6y ago
Could you work at home where your family is? I'm in a similar spot and seriously considering it.
noman-land 6y ago
Considering the way you explained your situation, it doesn't sound like you'd be taking away anything from anyone more deserving. You sound like you need that valuable capacity as well.
nouveau0 6y ago
I feel you. I'm going through the same thing. I'm an introvert who recently became extrovert and I can't do 90% of the activities that made me an extrovert. Here's how I'm coping: 1. Reactivated my introvert side with a) Reading more books b) Learning to play music c) Online singing lessons d) Exercising at home: i) Strength ii) Following through Supple Leopard (book) 2. Going outside once a day for a walk. No exceptions. 3. Chill at the emptiest park on the weekend. 4. Going on a hike during on some weekends. 5. Small talk and saying Hi to random people on the street. 6. Cleaning the house
- zepearl 6y ago
  (same profile & problems here) I started two weeks ago with #2 (a ~10 minutes walk in the morning) and it does seem to have a positive impact (more relaxed while working, less feeling of being "stuck at home"). Concerning #1a I started reading again some books that I already read in the past, but in a different language. Additionally: cooking. I previouly used to cook just some veeery basic stuff but now I tend to experiment more and raise a little bit the difficulty level (e.g. Tom Kha Gai soup, fish cooked in the owen, etc...) => interesting, and it changes a bit your usual day, and it provides something about which you can talk to other people => nice (but dangerous - always have a plan B available, hehe)

aaroninsf 6y ago

Absent from most coverage: This and the related issue of school closure, are necessitated only because in this country we were incapable of embracing, or even in any meaningful way, articulating, the necessary and obvious solution to this pandemic: • support individuals and businesses 100%, while • developing effective test, trace, treat, and control There is no mystery here. The examples of successful variants are everywhere: literally, everywhere else in the first and some of the second world. The arguments for UBI, single payer, and not least, the eradication of right-wing indoctrination networks which cultivate a meaningful subset of the populace to be uninformed, uninformable tribal victimhood-rage-junkies divorced from consensus reality and hostile to science, have never been more stark. Yet nowhere are these self-evident truths being articulated, debated, trumpeted, defended, forced. Every vehicle which the right habitually paints as "left" liberal or biases that I follow, is so laughably mealy-mouthed, equivocating, both-siding, and self-constrained in its framing, let alone advocacy, as to provoke nihlistic despair. The question is not why Google is resigning itself to WFH. The question is not why employees must now form micro-schooling pods out of pocket. The question is why there are not pitchforks and torches forcing the obvious basic systemic change in this country necessary to bring us in-line with every other functional variant of 21st c. intelligent capitalism. We have been committed by short-sighted billionaires who backed social tribalism as a tactic to wealth consolidation, to a path of total cultural and political self-destruction. So f--king tiresome and so, so, so unnecessary.

acituan 6y ago

As other comments mention protracted WFH reveals and expands many inequities; - A good chunk of the FAANG workers are young immigrants, which means they cannot move back to their parents’. Whereas most of their American counterparts can do this if they choose to and enjoy multiple benefits from rent savings to moral support of having a community. - A good majority of the workers are single young adults. Multiyear shutdowns including the office space will make couplings suffer. It is already harder for immigrants to find partners (e.g. large intercultural gaps) but this not only amplifies the current isolation but also delays people’s life goals significantly. - A good portion of the workforce don’t have enough savings for a downpayment and usually live in HCOL locations, which means they are renting smallish apartments. When the primary locale is home, it makes a huge difference what that home is like. Be it sufficient noise isolation from neighbors, to having space for exercise / hobbies (even more important where gyms and other entertainment venues are closed), a dedicated office, a yard to get some sunshine and fresh air. I forsee mental health of these demographics taking an extra hit that will ripple for the next several years, even decades.

siculars 6y ago

What really hasn't gotten the same level of attention is the fact that Googlers will be able to work from anywhere in the country their main office is located in. I predict there will be some exodus of Googlers from places like NYC, SF/Bay, LA and Seattle for places like Austin, Colorado and Florida. Edit. I have two small kids and child care has been the bane of my existence since March. This (and flex time) has definitely helped my families situation. I'm grateful for the luxury and I'm deeply concerned for everyone who is in this situation without this flexibility (friends and family included). /Googler living in a middle state, thoughts my own.

finnjohnsen2 6y ago

Feel bad for people in the US, which seems to effectively to be back to March/April.

kshacker 6y ago

So a mischievous question : if everyone can work from home, which means they can work from anywhere and not really needed in USA, will Google reduce H-1B applications for the next year?

ryanSrich 6y ago

Why not work from home forever? If it works now it’ll work in a year.

sushshshsh 6y ago

The government wouldn't let Google create housing at the site of its office, so it created Google offices at the sites of its employees :)