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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

111 points by clouddrover 6y ago

maeln 6y ago
It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.
- csunbird 6y ago
  Public transport is very good, so you usually do not need a car within the city, a small car is enough for most of the tasks.
- bipson 6y ago
  That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets. But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range. The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy either an ICE (looking for a family car), or BMW or Audi SUVs (looking for luxury & status) - unless they are idealists or in search of image polish (business cars bring larger tax benefits for electric cars). Then there are simply not much electric cars on the market that aren't in the Zoe-class in the first place (although several alternatives are bound to hit the market soon), besides very expensive SUVs and Teslas. And the regular e-Golf pricing is simply not competitive, for what you get. So most people buying a Zoe is put very simply a "cheapest price will attract the masses"-phenomenon - given what people are looking for (an electric car, maybe as replacement for the smaller second commuter car).
  - maeln 6y ago
    Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) . Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more. Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    I seriously can not consider putting 45k Euros myself to a car, when I can buy a mid size sedan or a hatchback for 20k Euros less (unused!).
- brnt 6y ago
  This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box. Here is NL.
  - guerby 6y ago
    In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-all-records-in-historic-month-year-in-the-netherlands/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.
    - codfrantic 6y ago
      This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.
    - koenvdb 6y ago
      Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)
      - mcv 6y ago
        Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.
      - 6y ago
- namdnay 6y ago
  One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)
  - bitexploder 6y ago
    Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?
    - em500 6y ago
      A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes. Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.
    - namdnay 6y ago
      I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars
      - xyzzyz 6y ago
        Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
- Markoff 6y ago
  It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.
- thatfrenchguy 6y ago
  Gas is expensive in the EU and cheap in the US, that’s why.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  The battery lease is what put me off, when I looked there didn't seem to be an option to buy it outright.
  - TLightful 6y ago
    That's old. I think since late 2019 you buy the car and battery outright. Good move. Who needs the complication of a battery lease
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > Who needs the complication of a battery lease Who needs the complication of owning a big battery?
      - michaelt 6y ago
        I can understand someone leasing the entire car, battery included. And I can understand someone buying a car outright. What I can't understand is why someone would want to buy a car outright, but still end up paying a lease on the battery. To me, that doesn't have the benefits of either option.
        mytailorisrich 6y ago
        People have been worried about EV's batteries in terms of lifespan, loss of charge, maintenance, etc. The option to lease the battery was a way to alleviate that worry, IMO.
noja 6y ago
and it's not a Leaf!
- tobyhinloopen 6y ago
  I totally expected the leaf
  - codeulike 6y ago
    Nissan have been too slow to get the Leaf to 200+ mile range. They've done it, after talking about it for years, but its expensive.
    - makapuf 6y ago
      Renault and Nissan are part of the same group. Pretty sure they share parts.
      - codeulike 6y ago
        But still.
      - jeffrallen 6y ago
        Unfortunately, not. The Zoe and Leaf platforms are different. Which is stupid. The Zoe drivetrain was codesigned by Renault and Continental and Continental makes it. There's a great teardown video of a Zoe's power electronics on YouTube.
- izacus 6y ago
  It's actually surprisingly hard to buy a leaf here - Nissan isn't a popular brand. Renaults are everywhere though - Clio is one of the most popular cars outside DACH region and Zoe being is its electric counterpart.
  - _Microft 6y ago
    DACH is Germany (D), Austria (A), Switzerland (CH) by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_German_speakers#DACH_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_G...
TLightful 6y ago
Not surprised - the Zoe is just a nice little everyday car ... not trying to be too much, just get the basics right of what a nomal driver needs. I'm in the market for an EV next year and, if the competitors haven't stepped up their game, I'll get one. No way will I buy a Tesla. Extremely bored of their brand and their online cult - very excited for alternatives. You can take your 0-60 and ... :)
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
  Would the Zoe be your only car? Do you plan to do cross-country trips? If not, what would you consider other than a Tesla for long range trips (ignoring branding/marketing for a second)?
  - TLightful 6y ago
    Ideally, yes. I live in London and 97% of my journeys would be there. An example, "normal" cross-country trip for me to, say, Bristol, is just over a 100 miles. Well within the Zoe's range. Anything crazy-further as a very one-off, and maybe I'd rent an ICE for the weekend. (edit: although someone just mentioned the 10%-80% charge time being just an hour ... fine by me!). As said, the Zoe would be on my radar if the competitors don't step up. But I've heard about quite a few alternative EV released in 2021. The Polestar 2 looks great. id.3 is fine. Hopefully Kia impress ... will be on the look out for others.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    Family of mine drove from northern Germany to Greece (don't know where exactly) in an E-Tron last year. It was a 2 day trip, but they said it was very chill. They could recharge in about 15 minutes (to 80%?), don't know the exact range between trips, but it was considerable. Would have taken 2 days with a conventional car as well, maybe just a little bit faster. Now, for business trips in rush hours it would probably be another story.
  - pi-rat 6y ago
    Either go for a fast charging car, fastest Tesla moves 1000 km in 10h (incl charging), newest E-tron manages the same in 10h20m (Teslabjørn’s tests). Or go for something super efficient, like the Kias (Kona/Ioniq). Kona does 560 km on a single charge (64 kWh) in real life tests here in Norway.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
Tesla Europe numbers are wildly variable. Tesla tends to build their European cars at the beginnning of the quarter so that they can be shipped across the ocean and into customer hands before the end of the quarter. The cars at the end of the quarter are shipped to Americans and the cars built in the last week are shipped to Californians. So because of the COVID shutdown, that means that the only month that Tesla made cars for Europe this year was January. (And July, but those cars haven't been counted yet). And, as mentioned the widely anticipated ID3 from VW isn't being delivered until September. So Europeans chose to buy a Zoe now rather than wait for a Tesla or an ID3. And the Zoe is a nice car, so why wait?
- Krasnol 6y ago
  I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla wasn't available. It's the price. I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost you two Zoes.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf diesel. I wonder what changed.
    - bryanlarsen 6y ago
      Did it change? That was for the base model which they won't be selling until next year, and including the German government incentive. https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-ice/ https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-...
      - Krasnol 6y ago
        It seems live that government incentive hit really good because the price I read beginning this year was around 40k€ in Germany while you get the Zoe for 21k (without incentive): https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-versionen.html https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-versionen...
codeulike 6y ago
The new 52kwh Zoe is pretty good, £25k for 200+ mile range. Probably the cheapest 200+ mile EV in Europe right now. The Tesla Model 3 is comparatively expensive due to importing. Cheapest Model 3 on the website is £40k. We're not even getting the Model Y until they build the german factory.
- samoa42 6y ago
  hate to break it to you but europeans generally express distance in kilometers and money in euros. so ~24ke and ~300km
- Markoff 6y ago
  Škody Citigo e iV should have 156 miles, but cost only 18.3K EUR
- dalys 6y ago
  And that Tesla Model 3 price is not even so bad. The cheapest Model 3 (Standard Range Plus) here in Sweden is £50k/€55k/$65k. The base Zoe, with the 52kWh battery, is £30k/€33/$39k. I recently bought my first car and would've loved to go electric, but nothing with decent battery size and boot size in my budget yet. I got a Passat GTE Sportswagon for now. All trips inside Stockholm I can drive on pure electric so I'm still quite happy.
pi-rat 6y ago
Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit of IT power nets, some places you'll need a heavy transformer (size of a bucket) to charge it. https://elbilstatistikk.no https://elbilstatistikk.no
- cerberusss 6y ago
  I think you guys are richer, to be honest. Edit: I replied too fast. I looked it up on Wikipedia and the "purchasing power parity" isn't all that different between, say, Netherlands and Norway. So I can't really explain it.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    “Purchasing power parity” doesn’t apply equally across all products. An equivalent salary in Denmark or Sweden will buy you more groceries than in Norway, but in Norway it will buy you a nicer electric car!
    - bipson 6y ago
      That's the point. Taking what you earn a and live with in Norway, and comparing it with other countries, due to massive subsidies (luxury-tax excemptions that usually apply to cars), a Tesla is an affordable option for an Norwegian looking for a nice car, while this is simply not the case for most other European countries. The same applies to Denmark and Netherlands to some degree, btw. They just have other subsidizing programs. E.g. VWs built in Germany are cheaper to import back from Netherlands to Germany, because Netherlands adds more tax to cars in general, VW thus reduces the price for this market, and you I individually don't pay the tax if you export.
      - buran77 6y ago
raxxorrax 6y ago
That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no parking spot so I would never buy a new car. Wouldn't take a month to get bumps in it. EVs need to do good on used car markets, otherwise they will remain a curiosity for the nearer future. But of course the cost for the battery life cycle could pose a significant problem. Renault offers battery leasing, which means people don't need to be afraid of it failing after a few years or very cold weather. For a Zoe, I would still have to pay 30,000€. Convince me to spend 28,000€ more on a car. It isn't a status symbol for me, times have changed, I need to go from A to B.
- oblio 6y ago
  Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.
  - cheerlessbog 6y ago
    In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.
    - PeterisP 6y ago
      Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.
      - 6y ago
mrweasel 6y ago
Sadly the Zoe is just a little to small. It may be an attempt to keep the weight down, but the interior of the Zoe is just a little shorter than that of the Clio, meaning that I can't physically fit my legs behind the wheel.
squarefoot 6y ago
They're building some good experience in the field. Renault made quite a revolution years ago when they introduced the Twizy, which to me was the perfect small car for commuting. Unfortunately it was ahead of its time, mainly due to the high costs of the car itself and the batteries, sold either as a product or as a service, so despite its minimalist appearance it was out of reach for normal office workers who would also need a bigger traditional car for their families. As a 100% motorcycle rider, if I had to buy a car today, I would choose the smallest possible one anyway; over here in the EU most modern cities are built on, or around, historical ancient ones where roads were made just for horses and carriages, and when a road is surrounded by buildings of historical importance, which is almost always the case in city centers, no way they're demolished to make a bigger road, so small cars are a must.
kozak 6y ago
Zoe is not a car where you would want to carry rear-seat passengers very often. I'd compare it more with a Fiat 500e that ID.3 or the Leaf.
- namdnay 6y ago
  Maybe not adult passengers every day, but it's more or less the same as the previous generation of Clio inside, which is the standard workhorse for damilies of 2 adults + 2 kids across europe
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    2 kids and one in a car seat fit in the back of mine.
xiphias2 6y ago
Model 3 is great in the US, but here people prefer BMWs because of more service locations and much better service (we can get new parts easily from Germany, don’t need to wait for parts from the U.S.), and pay extra costs from importing from outside E.U. The Berlin factory will help with all of these problems.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much better quality than Teslas.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    Yes, that's part of the ,,shipping price'' problem as well.
  - Mvandenbergh 6y ago
    In terms of quality of finish and materials, yes. But those are status differentiators rather than functional differences and the Tesla brand name has a status all of its own so they appeal to people with slightly different preferences around status signalling.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Quality is definitely not a status differentiator. The brand is. Usually higher price goes hand in hand with better quality, because that's what is expected of a more expensive car for quite obvious reasons.
      - Mvandenbergh 6y ago
        If the quality is functional, then it's not a status differentiator. If it's just about appearance, then it is. The interior materials in a BMW of a similar price are more expensive, more "premium", and the tolerances in the way the interior is assembled are tighter but none of those things affect how the car functions.
bowlingx 6y ago
I ordered one :D. I love the size of the car, it's small enough to navigate in a town and AC charging speed is high (22 kw, no one else, besides a SMART offers this in this price range). I can't charge at home (as I live in an appartment in the city) and I don't want to wait 6 hours for a full charge. Fast chargers ( >= 50kw) inside towns in Germany are (still) rare and there are more 22kw chargers available around me, also free ones at supermarkets. I occasionally drive more then 500 km, but maybe 3 times per year, and then I would propably take the train anyway.
guerby 6y ago
Yes the new Zoe is a good EV, can do some long distance but is limited by its 50 kW DC charger. Peugeot e-208 has 100 kW so a bit better for the same price range. Zoe is also a nice proof of battery price drop, Renault kept the price constant but battery capacity went from 22 kWh to 52 kWh https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-updated-renault-zoe-in-germany/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-u...
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nickik 6y ago
Tesla will only really start competing in Europe once their factory is up and running. It messes with their financials to have lots of vehicles being transported. That should give them some high volume but the cars are still not perfect for the European market, but at least they should make a good margin. It will probebly be 2 more years before they have a 'small' car for Europe and China in production. Only then they will really compete with the shorter range city cars.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Even worse, they have to pay 12% taxes on any imported Tesla (10% import duty + 20% VAT on the duty)
neuronic 6y ago
Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Always find parking within a few minutes with the privilege of getting the e-parking spots and the small size. Zoe is perfect for European city dwelling and short commutes. Not as expensive as BMW i3 or VW e-Golf. Same type of car as the e-Up! which I haven't tried yet.
- darksaints 6y ago
  It sounds like it could be great for a lot of US city dwellers as well. I have lived in Seattle for several years, and can count the number of >50mi trips I've taken with my personal car on zero hands.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    There have been a few times I've been tempted to try to petition a Nissan dealer to try to import a Zoe to the US. Nissan America's short-sighted truck focus belies so much more interesting work going on in their siblings in the larger Nissan Group. The Honda e at least has the excuse that the US has been the slowest to allow sideview cameras in its safety regulations, though Honda America similarly is short-sightedly focused almost solely on trucks in the US.
- Markoff 6y ago
  wouldn't electric bike/scooter without renting make more sense for you? unless you use it to do big grocery, though this could be resolved by ordering grocery online I'm living in the Prague without car, only missing car when doing the grocery, but there is no point to buy car just to do big grocery once a week, might as well rent a car or take taxi or order grocery online, if I would be that lazy.
  - holri 6y ago
dzhiurgis 6y ago
Let's hope Tesla builds a cyberbug. Stainless to last forever, tiny and cheap as chips.
bengale 6y ago
My wife has one of these and she absolutely loves it. I've only driven it a few times but seems like a great car. Price is really good too.
phtrivier 6y ago
The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.) Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to feel better about their carbon footprint, while also saving on gas ! (Which, don't get me wrong, is great !) As the saying goes, "it takes a lot of money to be poor." The situation will, hopefully, get better, when there is a second-hand market for EV, or much cheaper vehicles...
- dhosek 6y ago
  Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but if we did, this would be a likely candidate.
  - dencodev 6y ago
    I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.
    - bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
      Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs. The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. With the leaf, you're using every cell, every day. So it's compounding and much worse than people realize, forgetting all the other problems like no thermal control on the pack. I actually loved my leafs (leaves?) but they couldn't even get to the city and back very quickly (I mean after 6 months the battery loses a bar). The newer ones are betterish.
Markoff 6y ago
I would expect Toyota or Nissan to be in the top spot, though not sure if they count hybrids or only fully electric cars. As fore Renault, are we sure these numbers are not driven be some big purchases of some (French) car rental companies for their fleets? It would make perfect sense especially in France. I'd really like to see which countries contributed to this success of Renault and in what countries it holds the top place. EDIT: at least in Germany it's tight victory for electric Golf over Zoe - 7320 vs 7066 cars sold in first half 2020, third place far behind Tesla Model 3 with 4367 cars, in UK is winning Tesla, in France Zoe https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-best-selling-electric-car-brands-and-models/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-bes...
DubiousPusher 6y ago
IMO the real sleeper of the EV race has been Kia. They've been serving up reasonably priced, practical EVs with decent ranges for years now to very little fanfare.
random123876 6y ago
Citroën AMI might be a killer electric city car. It comes at 6k euros with 45km/h and 70km range. https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-electric-car-light-quadricycle-two-seater-rental-buy-online https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-elec...
DrinkWater 6y ago
I know about a dealership that sold 50 Zoes in a day last month. And they are located in a small city in Germany, almost rural. I can only imagine how much they are selling in bigger cities.
woodandsteel 6y ago
The Zoe has a short range in part because when it was first designed batteries were relatively low in power density and very high in prices. When batteries improved on both of these, the range was upgraded. Battery density and prices are going to continue to improve, and so we can expect the Zoe will be upgraded in the future. And the battery progress means that larger and longer-range cars will become affordable to a broader public in Europe and elsewhere.
markosaric 6y ago
This is a great car! We have the original version (same car but smaller battery) and it still runs so good after 4 years or so. Love driving it. It's a perfect car for day to day needs around the city/shopping/commute but I also love going on longer trips of 200+ KM. Always a new discovery of different places thanks to the need to charge. Runs about 150 KM on a single charge on eco mode so when we go on a longer trip we find a nice and interesting place to have a break and explore while it charges.

111 points by clouddrover 6y ago

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

csunbird 6y ago
Public transport is very good, so you usually do not need a car within the city, a small car is enough for most of the tasks.
bipson 6y ago
That's one explanation that focuses on the differences between European an American markets. But also, the Zoe is is in the affordable range for people looking for an electric car in non-massively-subsidized markets (Norway, Denmark), while VWs and Teslas are rather in the luxury range. The amount of car (utility & status & luxury) I get for Tesla or VW money in e.g. Germany, makes most prospective customers buy either an ICE (looking for a family car), or BMW or Audi SUVs (looking for luxury & status) - unless they are idealists or in search of image polish (business cars bring larger tax benefits for electric cars). Then there are simply not much electric cars on the market that aren't in the Zoe-class in the first place (although several alternatives are bound to hit the market soon), besides very expensive SUVs and Teslas. And the regular e-Golf pricing is simply not competitive, for what you get. So most people buying a Zoe is put very simply a "cheapest price will attract the masses"-phenomenon - given what people are looking for (an electric car, maybe as replacement for the smaller second commuter car).
- maeln 6y ago
  Yes absolutely ! That is why I was also talking about the Tesla has a "status symbol" :) . Tesla are doubly expensive also because they usually fall into the sports cars category and insurance will make you pay way more. Also, you probably need a safe place to park it. It is not true everywhere but I know that where I live, there is places where it would get vandalized pretty quickly.
- csunbird 6y ago
  I seriously can not consider putting 45k Euros myself to a car, when I can buy a mid size sedan or a hatchback for 20k Euros less (unused!).
brnt 6y ago
This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of their commute box. Here is NL.
- guerby 6y ago
  In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-all-records-in-historic-month-year-in-the-netherlands/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrained not much information about customer preferences from sales numbers.
  - codfrantic 6y ago
    This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.
  - koenvdb 6y ago
    Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)
    - mcv 6y ago
      Back in the 1980s I considered the VW Golf a small car, but not anymore. Not sure if it's gotten larger since then, or my view of a small car has shrunk. But I don't think the Tesla 3 is that much larger than a Golf.
    - 6y ago
namdnay 6y ago
One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)
- bitexploder 6y ago
  Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?
  - em500 6y ago
    A new Toyota Corolla in the Netherlands costs around €25k, of which around 11k are taxes (5k sales tax plus 6k vehicle tax). Gas price at the pump are €1.67/L (= €6.32/gallon), of which almost half are (sales+excise) taxes. Our vaunted public services don't come cheap.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars
    - xyzzyz 6y ago
      Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
Markoff 6y ago
It's not surprise to me it's small car, but that is Renault. I would expect Nissan, Hyundai or Toyota taking the top spots, though by my anecdotal experience I see most often BMW i3.
thatfrenchguy 6y ago
Gas is expensive in the EU and cheap in the US, that’s why.

mytailorisrich 6y ago

In the UK a Renault Zoe is about 30% cheaper than a Tesla Model 3 and is smaller and more urban. I.e. more in line with most cars you see everywhere in Europe. It is also possible to lease the battery instead of buying it along with the car, which seems to be a popular option (although it seems they've removed the option, apparently).

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
The battery lease is what put me off, when I looked there didn't seem to be an option to buy it outright.
- TLightful 6y ago
  That's old. I think since late 2019 you buy the car and battery outright. Good move. Who needs the complication of a battery lease
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Who needs the complication of a battery lease Who needs the complication of owning a big battery?
    - michaelt 6y ago
      I can understand someone leasing the entire car, battery included. And I can understand someone buying a car outright. What I can't understand is why someone would want to buy a car outright, but still end up paying a lease on the battery. To me, that doesn't have the benefits of either option.
      - mytailorisrich 6y ago
        People have been worried about EV's batteries in terms of lifespan, loss of charge, maintenance, etc. The option to lease the battery was a way to alleviate that worry, IMO.

noja 6y ago

and it's not a Leaf!

tobyhinloopen 6y ago
I totally expected the leaf
- codeulike 6y ago
  Nissan have been too slow to get the Leaf to 200+ mile range. They've done it, after talking about it for years, but its expensive.
  - makapuf 6y ago
    Renault and Nissan are part of the same group. Pretty sure they share parts.
    - codeulike 6y ago
      But still.
    - jeffrallen 6y ago
      Unfortunately, not. The Zoe and Leaf platforms are different. Which is stupid. The Zoe drivetrain was codesigned by Renault and Continental and Continental makes it. There's a great teardown video of a Zoe's power electronics on YouTube.
izacus 6y ago
It's actually surprisingly hard to buy a leaf here - Nissan isn't a popular brand. Renaults are everywhere though - Clio is one of the most popular cars outside DACH region and Zoe being is its electric counterpart.
- _Microft 6y ago
  DACH is Germany (D), Austria (A), Switzerland (CH) by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_German_speakers#DACH_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_G...

TLightful 6y ago

Not surprised - the Zoe is just a nice little everyday car ... not trying to be too much, just get the basics right of what a nomal driver needs. I'm in the market for an EV next year and, if the competitors haven't stepped up their game, I'll get one. No way will I buy a Tesla. Extremely bored of their brand and their online cult - very excited for alternatives. You can take your 0-60 and ... :)

rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
Would the Zoe be your only car? Do you plan to do cross-country trips? If not, what would you consider other than a Tesla for long range trips (ignoring branding/marketing for a second)?
- TLightful 6y ago
  Ideally, yes. I live in London and 97% of my journeys would be there. An example, "normal" cross-country trip for me to, say, Bristol, is just over a 100 miles. Well within the Zoe's range. Anything crazy-further as a very one-off, and maybe I'd rent an ICE for the weekend. (edit: although someone just mentioned the 10%-80% charge time being just an hour ... fine by me!). As said, the Zoe would be on my radar if the competitors don't step up. But I've heard about quite a few alternative EV released in 2021. The Polestar 2 looks great. id.3 is fine. Hopefully Kia impress ... will be on the look out for others.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Family of mine drove from northern Germany to Greece (don't know where exactly) in an E-Tron last year. It was a 2 day trip, but they said it was very chill. They could recharge in about 15 minutes (to 80%?), don't know the exact range between trips, but it was considerable. Would have taken 2 days with a conventional car as well, maybe just a little bit faster. Now, for business trips in rush hours it would probably be another story.
- pi-rat 6y ago
  Either go for a fast charging car, fastest Tesla moves 1000 km in 10h (incl charging), newest E-tron manages the same in 10h20m (Teslabjørn’s tests). Or go for something super efficient, like the Kias (Kona/Ioniq). Kona does 560 km on a single charge (64 kWh) in real life tests here in Norway.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

Tesla Europe numbers are wildly variable. Tesla tends to build their European cars at the beginnning of the quarter so that they can be shipped across the ocean and into customer hands before the end of the quarter. The cars at the end of the quarter are shipped to Americans and the cars built in the last week are shipped to Californians. So because of the COVID shutdown, that means that the only month that Tesla made cars for Europe this year was January. (And July, but those cars haven't been counted yet). And, as mentioned the widely anticipated ID3 from VW isn't being delivered until September. So Europeans chose to buy a Zoe now rather than wait for a Tesla or an ID3. And the Zoe is a nice car, so why wait?

Krasnol 6y ago
I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla wasn't available. It's the price. I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost you two Zoes.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf diesel. I wonder what changed.
  - bryanlarsen 6y ago
    Did it change? That was for the base model which they won't be selling until next year, and including the German government incentive. https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-ice/ https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-...
    - Krasnol 6y ago
      It seems live that government incentive hit really good because the price I read beginning this year was around 40k€ in Germany while you get the Zoe for 21k (without incentive): https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-versionen.html https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-versionen...

codeulike 6y ago

The new 52kwh Zoe is pretty good, £25k for 200+ mile range. Probably the cheapest 200+ mile EV in Europe right now. The Tesla Model 3 is comparatively expensive due to importing. Cheapest Model 3 on the website is £40k. We're not even getting the Model Y until they build the german factory.

samoa42 6y ago
hate to break it to you but europeans generally express distance in kilometers and money in euros. so ~24ke and ~300km
Markoff 6y ago
Škody Citigo e iV should have 156 miles, but cost only 18.3K EUR
dalys 6y ago
And that Tesla Model 3 price is not even so bad. The cheapest Model 3 (Standard Range Plus) here in Sweden is £50k/€55k/$65k. The base Zoe, with the 52kWh battery, is £30k/€33/$39k. I recently bought my first car and would've loved to go electric, but nothing with decent battery size and boot size in my budget yet. I got a Passat GTE Sportswagon for now. All trips inside Stockholm I can drive on pure electric so I'm still quite happy.

pi-rat 6y ago

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit of IT power nets, some places you'll need a heavy transformer (size of a bucket) to charge it. https://elbilstatistikk.no https://elbilstatistikk.no

cerberusss 6y ago
I think you guys are richer, to be honest. Edit: I replied too fast. I looked it up on Wikipedia and the "purchasing power parity" isn't all that different between, say, Netherlands and Norway. So I can't really explain it.
- Reason077 6y ago
  “Purchasing power parity” doesn’t apply equally across all products. An equivalent salary in Denmark or Sweden will buy you more groceries than in Norway, but in Norway it will buy you a nicer electric car!
  - bipson 6y ago
    That's the point. Taking what you earn a and live with in Norway, and comparing it with other countries, due to massive subsidies (luxury-tax excemptions that usually apply to cars), a Tesla is an affordable option for an Norwegian looking for a nice car, while this is simply not the case for most other European countries. The same applies to Denmark and Netherlands to some degree, btw. They just have other subsidizing programs. E.g. VWs built in Germany are cheaper to import back from Netherlands to Germany, because Netherlands adds more tax to cars in general, VW thus reduces the price for this market, and you I individually don't pay the tax if you export.
    - buran77 6y ago

raxxorrax 6y ago

That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no parking spot so I would never buy a new car. Wouldn't take a month to get bumps in it. EVs need to do good on used car markets, otherwise they will remain a curiosity for the nearer future. But of course the cost for the battery life cycle could pose a significant problem. Renault offers battery leasing, which means people don't need to be afraid of it failing after a few years or very cold weather. For a Zoe, I would still have to pay 30,000€. Convince me to spend 28,000€ more on a car. It isn't a status symbol for me, times have changed, I need to go from A to B.

oblio 6y ago
Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.
- cheerlessbog 6y ago
  In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.
  - PeterisP 6y ago
    Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.
    - 6y ago

mrweasel 6y ago

Sadly the Zoe is just a little to small. It may be an attempt to keep the weight down, but the interior of the Zoe is just a little shorter than that of the Clio, meaning that I can't physically fit my legs behind the wheel.

squarefoot 6y ago

They're building some good experience in the field. Renault made quite a revolution years ago when they introduced the Twizy, which to me was the perfect small car for commuting. Unfortunately it was ahead of its time, mainly due to the high costs of the car itself and the batteries, sold either as a product or as a service, so despite its minimalist appearance it was out of reach for normal office workers who would also need a bigger traditional car for their families. As a 100% motorcycle rider, if I had to buy a car today, I would choose the smallest possible one anyway; over here in the EU most modern cities are built on, or around, historical ancient ones where roads were made just for horses and carriages, and when a road is surrounded by buildings of historical importance, which is almost always the case in city centers, no way they're demolished to make a bigger road, so small cars are a must.

kozak 6y ago

Zoe is not a car where you would want to carry rear-seat passengers very often. I'd compare it more with a Fiat 500e that ID.3 or the Leaf.

namdnay 6y ago
Maybe not adult passengers every day, but it's more or less the same as the previous generation of Clio inside, which is the standard workhorse for damilies of 2 adults + 2 kids across europe
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  2 kids and one in a car seat fit in the back of mine.

xiphias2 6y ago

Model 3 is great in the US, but here people prefer BMWs because of more service locations and much better service (we can get new parts easily from Germany, don’t need to wait for parts from the U.S.), and pay extra costs from importing from outside E.U. The Berlin factory will help with all of these problems.

mytailorisrich 6y ago
From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much better quality than Teslas.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Yes, that's part of the ,,shipping price'' problem as well.
- Mvandenbergh 6y ago
  In terms of quality of finish and materials, yes. But those are status differentiators rather than functional differences and the Tesla brand name has a status all of its own so they appeal to people with slightly different preferences around status signalling.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Quality is definitely not a status differentiator. The brand is. Usually higher price goes hand in hand with better quality, because that's what is expected of a more expensive car for quite obvious reasons.
    - Mvandenbergh 6y ago
      If the quality is functional, then it's not a status differentiator. If it's just about appearance, then it is. The interior materials in a BMW of a similar price are more expensive, more "premium", and the tolerances in the way the interior is assembled are tighter but none of those things affect how the car functions.

bowlingx 6y ago

I ordered one :D. I love the size of the car, it's small enough to navigate in a town and AC charging speed is high (22 kw, no one else, besides a SMART offers this in this price range). I can't charge at home (as I live in an appartment in the city) and I don't want to wait 6 hours for a full charge. Fast chargers ( >= 50kw) inside towns in Germany are (still) rare and there are more 22kw chargers available around me, also free ones at supermarkets. I occasionally drive more then 500 km, but maybe 3 times per year, and then I would propably take the train anyway.

guerby 6y ago

Yes the new Zoe is a good EV, can do some long distance but is limited by its 50 kW DC charger. Peugeot e-208 has 100 kW so a bit better for the same price range. Zoe is also a nice proof of battery price drop, Renault kept the price constant but battery capacity went from 22 kWh to 52 kWh https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-updated-renault-zoe-in-germany/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/07/01/new-battery-old-price-u...

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nickik 6y ago

Tesla will only really start competing in Europe once their factory is up and running. It messes with their financials to have lots of vehicles being transported. That should give them some high volume but the cars are still not perfect for the European market, but at least they should make a good margin. It will probebly be 2 more years before they have a 'small' car for Europe and China in production. Only then they will really compete with the shorter range city cars.

_ph_ 6y ago
Even worse, they have to pay 12% taxes on any imported Tesla (10% import duty + 20% VAT on the duty)

neuronic 6y ago

Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Always find parking within a few minutes with the privilege of getting the e-parking spots and the small size. Zoe is perfect for European city dwelling and short commutes. Not as expensive as BMW i3 or VW e-Golf. Same type of car as the e-Up! which I haven't tried yet.

darksaints 6y ago
It sounds like it could be great for a lot of US city dwellers as well. I have lived in Seattle for several years, and can count the number of >50mi trips I've taken with my personal car on zero hands.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  There have been a few times I've been tempted to try to petition a Nissan dealer to try to import a Zoe to the US. Nissan America's short-sighted truck focus belies so much more interesting work going on in their siblings in the larger Nissan Group. The Honda e at least has the excuse that the US has been the slowest to allow sideview cameras in its safety regulations, though Honda America similarly is short-sightedly focused almost solely on trucks in the US.
Markoff 6y ago
wouldn't electric bike/scooter without renting make more sense for you? unless you use it to do big grocery, though this could be resolved by ordering grocery online I'm living in the Prague without car, only missing car when doing the grocery, but there is no point to buy car just to do big grocery once a week, might as well rent a car or take taxi or order grocery online, if I would be that lazy.
- holri 6y ago

dzhiurgis 6y ago

Let's hope Tesla builds a cyberbug. Stainless to last forever, tiny and cheap as chips.

bengale 6y ago

My wife has one of these and she absolutely loves it. I've only driven it a few times but seems like a great car. Price is really good too.

phtrivier 6y ago

The Zoe is, sadly, at the moment, the perfect anti-yellow-jacket car: no matter how much rebates the government will give you, you need to put so much cash on the table that it's completely unaffordable to those who might benefit from it the most (daily short-medium commutes between peripheral towns.) Instead, it's bought by already-affluent upper middle-class, who then get to feel better about their carbon footprint, while also saving on gas ! (Which, don't get me wrong, is great !) As the saying goes, "it takes a lot of money to be poor." The situation will, hopefully, get better, when there is a second-hand market for EV, or much cheaper vehicles...

dhosek 6y ago
Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but if we did, this would be a likely candidate.
- dencodev 6y ago
  I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.
  - bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
    Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs. The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. With the leaf, you're using every cell, every day. So it's compounding and much worse than people realize, forgetting all the other problems like no thermal control on the pack. I actually loved my leafs (leaves?) but they couldn't even get to the city and back very quickly (I mean after 6 months the battery loses a bar). The newer ones are betterish.

Markoff 6y ago

I would expect Toyota or Nissan to be in the top spot, though not sure if they count hybrids or only fully electric cars. As fore Renault, are we sure these numbers are not driven be some big purchases of some (French) car rental companies for their fleets? It would make perfect sense especially in France. I'd really like to see which countries contributed to this success of Renault and in what countries it holds the top place. EDIT: at least in Germany it's tight victory for electric Golf over Zoe - 7320 vs 7066 cars sold in first half 2020, third place far behind Tesla Model 3 with 4367 cars, in UK is winning Tesla, in France Zoe https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-best-selling-electric-car-brands-and-models/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/latest-germany-bes...

DubiousPusher 6y ago

IMO the real sleeper of the EV race has been Kia. They've been serving up reasonably priced, practical EVs with decent ranges for years now to very little fanfare.

random123876 6y ago

Citroën AMI might be a killer electric city car. It comes at 6k euros with 45km/h and 70km range. https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-electric-car-light-quadricycle-two-seater-rental-buy-online https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/28/21157346/citroen-ami-elec...

DrinkWater 6y ago

I know about a dealership that sold 50 Zoes in a day last month. And they are located in a small city in Germany, almost rural. I can only imagine how much they are selling in bigger cities.

woodandsteel 6y ago

The Zoe has a short range in part because when it was first designed batteries were relatively low in power density and very high in prices. When batteries improved on both of these, the range was upgraded. Battery density and prices are going to continue to improve, and so we can expect the Zoe will be upgraded in the future. And the battery progress means that larger and longer-range cars will become affordable to a broader public in Europe and elsewhere.

markosaric 6y ago

This is a great car! We have the original version (same car but smaller battery) and it still runs so good after 4 years or so. Love driving it. It's a perfect car for day to day needs around the city/shopping/commute but I also love going on longer trips of 200+ KM. Always a new discovery of different places thanks to the need to charge. Runs about 150 KM on a single charge on eco mode so when we go on a longer trip we find a nice and interesting place to have a break and explore while it charges.