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Homeland Security Was Destined to Become a Secret Police Force

242 points by jbegley 6y ago

aswanson 6y ago
It's like Homelander from "The Boys". An unaccountable menace that had a public image as a defender, reporting to dark interests.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aww_dang 6y ago
Allegedly they used Markus Wolf (ex-Stasi chief) as a consultant in the formative days. Hard to track down a reliable source for this.
- dylan604 6y ago
  "Hard to track down a reliable source" sounds like a perfectly valid reason not to post an idea.
  - ColanR 6y ago
    That would make it difficult to discuss theories for which reliable sources don't yet exist. A lot of truth first exists as rumor; how would you suggest that rumors be discussed?
    - xxpor 6y ago
      There's also a rumor that elites are kidnapping 900,000 kids a year to rape them and extract adrenochrome from their pituitary glands while still alive. It's hard to find a reliable source for this, but ah, nevertheless.
    - glitcher 6y ago
      And the discussion of too many unsubstantiated rumors gets us to the place where a very significant portion of the population are basically full blown conspiracy theorists. Then we find ourselves in a place where facts and science are transformed into beliefs. I don't think discussing rumors is inherently bad in moderation, but I guess moderation is a tough problem for us in many parts of society today.
      - ColanR 6y ago
        Well, I'm not saying we should jump to the other extreme - though, suppression or denial of rumors doesn't really help them go away. Streisand effect, etc. Rather, I'm just reacting to the parent's claim that we shouldn't discuss anything that doesn't already have substantiative evidence behind it - if we applied that principle more generally, physics would come to a standstill.
  - fao_ 6y ago
    imagine if there was a place you could ask other people if they had heard this same thing. oh wait, there is!
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    "A BBC radio interview circa 2004 given by the former head of the KGB, General Yevgeni Primakov, as well as a former congressman confirmed that Homeland Security hired Markus Wolf, the architect of the STASI informant program, as a consultant for DHS." Just hard to find the original interview. You're welcome to search yourself, or perhaps discuss something else?
    - icebraining 6y ago
      What's the origin of that quote?
      - aww_dang 6y ago
        https://www.progress-index.com/article/20130708/NEWS/307089939?template=ampart https://www.progress-index.com/article/20130708/NEWS/3070899...
        NPMaxwell 6y ago
        Cool. HN timestamps show that took you no more than 5 minutes, maximum!
        aww_dang 6y ago
        Would have been happier with a transcript from the BBC.
    - pandaman 6y ago
      Probably it's hard to find because there has never been such a person at the head of KGB? There had been 8 chairmen (K in KGB stands for "committee" hence its head's title is "Chairman") in the whole history of this organization and none of them had this or similar name. The only KGB-related person with such name is Yevgeni Maksimovich Primakov, who had been a head of the KGB's 1st Department for a brief period of time in 1991, but he had been a civilian so not the same person as the "General Yevgeni Primakov".
  - leafboi 6y ago
    The inception of every novel idea begins without a source; to enforce such a restriction is to ban the creation of ideas.
    - krapp 6y ago
      There are no novel ideas without a source. Every human concept and invention is based on some prior idea or knowledge. More importantly, every "idea" that attempts to aspire to fact has to be proven to be considered valid. The claim "Allegedly they used Markus Wolf (ex-Stasi chief) as a consultant in the formative days" is not merely a "novel idea" but an allegation, in other words, an idea that aspires to fact. The likely validity of this statement depends on its source. To assert that the above claim requires no source in order to be valid as fact simply because it is an "idea" is to ban the distinction between truth and fiction.
      - aww_dang 6y ago
        When speaking of third hand information reported in the media absolute terms like 'proven', 'fact' and 'valid' seem overly broad. Throw in the contentious nature of a political discussion on the Internet and you have a real mess.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - leafboi 6y ago
        >There are no novel ideas without a source. All sources are ideas in itself and If all "ideas" under your definition have a source, this means every source also has a source because they are ideas themselves. By induction this leads to the existence of ideas with an infinite chain of sources... Which is impossible. By logic, the Chain must terminate at an idea without a source. Thus it can be said that: All ideas are built from an idea without a source. We call this an "axiom" in mathematics. The exception to this rule is the existence of a cycle in this chain: An initial idea that refers to another idea that refers to the initial idea as its source; A closed loop. However, we as humans tend to shun these cycles as we call them "paradoxes." What the poster means by "novel idea" as opposed to "idea" is the terminal idea at the end of these source chains. In short, the inception of all "novel ideas" begin without a source. Again, we call this "novel idea" The axiom or the assumption. The strange thing about the axiom itself is an entity that "bans the distinction between truth and fiction" and is ironically the foundation of all human logic. Another word for this is a "paradox" something we both shun and use as the foundation for all human logic.
cturner 6y ago
This is political content. Every other news aggregation site on the planet covers this stuff. It detracts from hacker news.
- Afforess 6y ago
  What part of "Hacker" in "Hacker News" did you not notice? Hackers have always been involved in politics. This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals. (From the Hacker's Manifesto, 1986)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- perfmode 6y ago
  hacking is a political act.
- johnyzee 6y ago
  Surveillance, information security, close enough, I'll allow it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
vz8 6y ago
Every so often, I look at a headline and think to myself before clicking: To VPN, or not VPN: that is the question.
- ColanR 6y ago
  I imagine that for such a threat model as you imply, a VPN would do rather little.
  - manquer 6y ago
    Depends on the country the VPN provider is based out of. While there are many soft power actions like blocking payments etc to outright hacking American LEA can do to extract data from other countries orgs but legally there are no tools like NSL and FISA courts to get it .
- nuker 6y ago
  > To VPN, or not VPN Why not have always-on VPN? Not a nice experience for Google users, but screw Google, iCloud never complains on 'new device'.
  - lima 6y ago
    > Not a nice experience for Google users, but screw Google, iCloud never complains on 'new device'. So you're saying Apple is worse at protecting you from suspicious logins?
    - nuker 6y ago
      Not worse, smarter.
webwielder2 6y ago
If Osama bin Laden “hated our freedom” as Bush said, then mission accomplished.
- nipponese 6y ago
  That one stings hard.
  - marvindanig 6y ago
    Also, that impeached lunatic and his enablers managed to kill more American civilians than Bin Laden ever could in twenty years.
    - pavs 6y ago
      Which lunatic? Be more specific, Usa seems to have quite a few of them as president.
      - wiredfool 6y ago
        To be fair, impeached limits it to two living presidents.
        vuln 6y ago
        There’s 3 presidents that have been impeached. Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.
        cameronbrown 6y ago
        The last impeachment failed though.
        dave5104 6y ago
        Trump's impeachment? No, he was impeached by the House of Representatives. He just wasn't convicted by the Senate and removed from office--perhaps that's what you consider a failure, though.
low_key 6y ago
Of course it was. I've even referred to it as the "Department of Motherland Security" since its inception.
rsynnott 6y ago
A particularly nasty case of nominative determinism; giving it such an obviously sinister name was never going to work out well.
Dwolb 6y ago
The key point this writer is making > we are watching the perfect and perhaps inevitable combination of a domestic-security superagency and a President who rejects all mechanisms of accountability, including the Senate confirmation process. Accountability appears to be broken with a two party system. Combined with a President who’s willing to push boundaries and a federal agency built to act more swiftly with broader powers, we could see a lot more civil strife before this term is up.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  I think the presidential system is also a factor; it makes it a little too obvious and immutable where the blame lies. In a parliamentary system, there’s much more scope for the ruling party to resolve this sort of thing by, say, quietly sacrificing the minister for justice, without much blame attaching to the PM (even if it’s their fault to begin with). In a presidential system it’s harder to do this without criticising dear leader. I can’t imagine many republican leaders are actually very happy about this whole mess, but very few of them are willing to publicly break ranks and they have limited ability to check the executive even if they do.
  - vsskanth 6y ago
    The equivalent here is asking for the resignation of the DHS secretary. Unfortunately, that has already happened when ICE separated children from their families. A second resignation would only make the president look bad.
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    >I can’t imagine many republican leaders are actually very happy about this whole mess, but very few of them are willing to publicly break ranks I think this is one of the most fundamental factors in the breakdown at higher levels of discourse. Most liberals I personally know used to put a strong emphasis on benefit of the doubt and pragmatism when it came to judging Republican leadership - there was always plenty of strong criticism, but there was also a lot of "well, in such-and-such case, they are just doing what they honestly think is best for the country". But that attitude is now utterly gone, because of the silence of such leaders on the incredibly overt hatred and unreasonableness of Trump and other proponents of spite-motivated authoritarianism. They still have plenty of good faith for Republicans, but what's changed is that they now have absolutely zero for Republican leaders. What's happening is awful.
clarkevans 6y ago
There is speculation [1] that the federal officers deployed to Portland include not only government employees, but also private security contractors. This seems reminiscent of "Pinkerton's National Detective Agency". If accurate, this undermines the legitimacy of the deployment, and perhaps explains why official identification for many of the officers is not provided. [1] https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0 https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-respondi...
- ideals 6y ago
  In such a case, shouldn't this be a good application for facial recognition software? These federal police should show up in databases confirming their identities, whether that's a federal db or a relatives FB page. Maybe we should be using ClearView AI to keep the police honest.
  - Kednicma 6y ago
    The police cover their faces, and make face coverings illegal. In the past, this has worked very well; the main change now is that we have a social expectation that law-abiding folks will wear face coverings, and in even more of an inversion, folks without face coverings are suspect. In neither situation would facial recognition systems make things better for the populace.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  There is no evidence of this and this speculation is false.
  - licyeus 6y ago
    The former secretary of DHS stated this week that DHS's Federal Protection Service (the forces deployed in Portland) are mostly private contractors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJPLAZNNkc&feature=youtu.be&t=63 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJPLAZNNkc&feature=youtu.be... Evidence enough?
- 6y ago
bfieidhbrjr 6y ago
There are really 2, 3 or 4 protests. There's the BLM daylight protestors... There's the "moms" in the evening... Then there's the anarchists/antifa at 2am. Before you judge what the DHS is doing, watch the videos from 2am. I think many people are watching the peaceful daytime videos and seeing DHS as overreacting. Which it would be. I don't think it's overreacting to people setting the court house on fire, hitting police in the head with hammers or destroying businesses. You can find videos of this easily even though the "protestors" tend to beat up and eject "unofficial" camera people. And they've been doing this for 2 MONTHS, way before DHS arrived with a mission to protect federal property, which we all pay for.
- thebooktocome 6y ago
  Truly crimes worthy of being wounded, maimed, and killed without either indictment or trial.
  - sky_lounge 6y ago
    No one picked up in Portland by an unmarked car was killed maimed etc..
    - klyrs 6y ago
      So if I were to grab you off of the street, question you, refuse to answer your questions and drop you off 30 minutes later without physically harming you... you'd be fine with that?
      - leereeves 6y ago
        That's actually happened to me (except out of my house, not off the street) when my house was misidentified as the location of a domestic violence call. It was disturbing and a little frightening, but yes, in hindsight I am fine with it. I hope they found the right house and found the person they were looking for.
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
As someone who has advocated for strong states rights (a position that’s traditionally not held by the progressive left over the last decade) I find these times to be interesting, and full of ideological dissonance. People are asking for a federal mandate on masks, but at the same time want no federal enforcement of these laws? How about neither? I hate seeing a world where “federal police” come in and squash local protests, and it bugs me that previously state rights advocates are calling for it.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  This is typical of today's divisive atmosphere. Do you remember the other BLM (Bureau of Land Management) protests in Oregon? I recall outraged partisans demanding federal intervention, while claiming that the ranchers were enjoying special privileges due to their race. I believe they called them "vanilla ISIS". Of course individuals within any movement will vary, but generally speaking, partisans want to use the power of the state against their ideological opponents. When it is used against them, they predictably cry foul.
  - NPMaxwell 6y ago
    I think maybe the issue here is that the press did not cover the unidentified federal agents arresting the BLM protesters. The result is that it looks like the treatment of the Portland protesters is different.
  - chowells 6y ago
    Do you actually believe that graffiti and a couple small fires rise to the same level of criminality as an armed takeover of federal land? It's fully possible to believe the federal government should put a stop to armed takeovers of federal land and not be involved in graffiti on non-federal property without it being a partisan thing. The problem is that people believe the protests in Portland are violent riots. They aren't. As long as people are manipulated so easily, I guess real policy discussions aren't going to happen.
    - aww_dang 6y ago
annoyingnoob 6y ago
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.
- rasz 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
  - jbay808 6y ago
    ... And? Did you post this in the wrong thread, or do you want to imply something about the French Revolution's relevance to the above quote but can't be bothered to explain your point? The French Revolution began as a bloodbath and ended in Napoleon rampaging across Europe, so it would seem like a case in point. Is that what you meant?
    - rasz 6y ago
      French Revolution is a perfect counter example nullifying MLK point. Yes, a lot of violence and chopped heads can in fact establish better future for all.
      - pjkundert 6y ago
        A future where utopia where “the last politician is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”? Let us know how that works out.
      - cloverich 6y ago
        ...the French revolution led to Napoleon though, and several more wars after. Did they cause the better future? Was the substantial violence and ethnic cleansing _following_ WW2 part of that future? I am far from an expert on the subject but I've yet to hear the argument you are presenting. Curious to hear a more substantive version of it.
sky_lounge 6y ago
The premise of the article has almost nothing to do with current events. One can dislike how/why DHS was created and also believe that order needs to be restored the area by the feds. As for the "unmarked cars" picking people up, what is actually happening to these people? Is it catch and release? It seems pretty tame to me. Should they just let the protesters/rioters burn down the courthouse? As to whether they are protesters or rioters, ask whether you think Peter Schiff could do what he did during occupy and stroll into the crowd attempting to debate and defend capitalism with the folk (which I think he failed to do at all, but more just the fact he was able to try it there is significant)? The answer is of course not; he'd probably be beaten or severely injured.
- annoyingnoob 6y ago
  >As for the "unmarked cars" picking people up, what is actually happening to these people? Is it catch and release? It seems pretty tame to me. Its illegal to detain people for no reason. How will you feel when it happens to you? > Should they just let the protesters/rioters burn down the courthouse? That is an interesting perspective. And its one that a lot of people currently hold toward the police. Does one (or even a few) bad apple spoil the bunch? Do you think that protesters like the Navy Vet, Naked Athena, the Wall of Moms, and even the Mayor of Portland really want to burn down a Federal building?
  - sky_lounge 6y ago
    > Its illegal to detain people for no reason. I agree and I find these events troubling. But I also want to put them in perspective. > Does one (or even a few) bad apple spoil the bunch? I don't understand the point you're making here. > Do you think that protesters like the Navy Vet, Naked Athena, the Wall of Moms, and even the Mayor of Portland really want to burn down a Federal building? As another commenter said, there are about 3 different groups with different adgendas operating in the area.
    - annoyingnoob 6y ago
      Who exactly is calling for the the courthouse to burn? That is my point, while there may be some troublemakers the vast majority are not. While some find calls to defund the police offensive, others find the call to stop people from exercising their rights offensive.
johnyzee 6y ago
Related to these mysterious federal agents in unmarked cars, I've often wondered how private citizens are supposed to protect themselves against someone impersonating law enforcement. In this case, the 'officers' were not even dressed as law enforcement, and either way, it is not very difficult to produce a reasonably convincing replica of a uniform. How can you make sure that you are dealing with actual law enforcement, when you submit yourself to them, they cuff you, take your stuff, drive you away, etc.? "Can I see your badge?" doesn't seem very effective, given that a badge can easily be faked, but more importantly you'd probably, for good reason, be too afraid to even ask. Is America really such a police state now that you are just supposed to submit to anyone in a uniform? And does this not seem ripe for abuse to everyone else?
- btmiller 6y ago
  I never thought I’d be advocating for the 2A, but...
  - kebman 6y ago
    It's what it's for.
    - KozmoNau7 6y ago
      Unfortunately a lot of 2A enthusiasts seem to be perfectly fine with the militarization of police and harassment of minorities and protestors, because to them it's the "right people" getting the short end of the stick.
      - 1123581321 6y ago
        This is just a frequently repeated meme. There is no evidence for it.
        orf 6y ago
        I’m looking for a statement by the NRA condemning what’s happening, reminding people that this kind of government oppression is what the 2A is all about and that regardless of your political views we should stand united in our willingness to bear arms against this incursion into our freedoms. I haven’t found it yet. Lots of stuff about demonic Democrats stripping freedoms though. Strange.
graycat 6y ago
For another view, can read the comments of Disqus user JLM at the blog https://continuations.com/post/624305968188145664/help-stop-fascism https://continuations.com/post/624305968188145664/help-stop-... There the relevant law is quoted and explained. So, in short, the DHS has the FPS (Federal Protective Service), and their job is > "... safeguarding Federal owned and leased facilities and has been since 1790. The FPS is part of the DHS. ... The Customs and Border Protection unit is legally supporting the Federal Protective Service because the particular unit -- the Border Patrol Tactical Unit -- BORTAC -- is highly trained in riot control operations." There are lots more details by JLM there including quotes of the relevant laws, e.g., 40 USC 1315. So, the FPS was in Portland to protect Federal property as in 40 USC 1315. In simplest terms, the Federal work there in Portland was protecting Federal property. Policing Portland in general was not part of the work. The article mentioned "secret police": To set that aside, just read the JLM quotes and explanations of the laws.
- defnotashton2 6y ago
  Except they are blocks away from the courthouse.
  - graycat 6y ago
    There's an explanation for that, good, bad, or otherwise. The claim is that they didn't want to dive into an angry, violent, dense mob to arrest people because that would be dangerous. For an arrest away from the action, all I saw was one video clip. For how general that was, I saw no information. I was concerned about that one video clip, but without more information I'm ready to set it aside as poor judgment, a mistake, a one time thing, or some such. I need more information. But, still, broadly, the "FPS" was not there, in either theory or practice, for the scary reason, Federal forces, not wanted in Portland, inserted to police the city, etc. Even given the one video clip, the FPS was clearly not policing the city. And for protecting the Federal courthouse, they were not over doing it since the courthouse was significantly damaged. Can read the reference I gave and conclude that the FPS, CBP, and DHS were just doing what the laws said they were supposed to do. For the laws, does anyone have any better ideas how the Feds can protect Fed property? Uh, supposedly that is actually not the job of the local police, that usually there is an agreement that the line is the center line on the street in front of the Fed building with the FPS on their side and local police on the other. IMHO the Portland case does not look like some start on Federal secret police. For the Chicago case, as best as I can see from the media, the Feds are there just to help local police with murder, etc. investigations and not on the street police work and were invited in by the mayor of Chicago.
fallingfrog 6y ago
Reminds me of this scene from the watchmen. An example of art anticipating reality. https://youtu.be/ShTVpGuzk1M https://youtu.be/ShTVpGuzk1M
- pengaru 6y ago
  A Scanner Darkly had a more apropos gestapo in unmarked van scurrying away a protester scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7591jlrL0&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7591jlrL0&t=1m10s
- fallingfrog 6y ago
  Come on guys the Comedian shoots a guy with a tear gas canister and then says “what happened to the American Dream? It came true!” That’s pretty on the nose.
smitty1e 6y ago
> The creation of the D.H.S. marked a shift in the way that Americans think and talk about the country, and about people. Oh, please. We went from being "these United States" to being "the United States" after the Civil War, and not without reason. A century back, under Wilson, we brought in 16A, 17A & the Federal Reserve. If there is substantial interest in redistributing power, not wealth, via Washington D.C., then we need https://conventionofstates.com/ https://conventionofstates.com/ Anything less is so much Mary Kay on the swine herd.
js2 6y ago
There's this quiz on the web where you're given a dozen names and have to guess if they are the names of My Little Ponies or porn stars. In that vein, here's another quiz: Story 1: In the late evening hours, the sound of sporadic gunfire was heard all over the city. There were many white vans driving around the streets searching for people. During one incident, plainclothes police jumped out of a sliding door, grabbed a civilian and then sped off. Story 2: They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them. "I see guys in camo. Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, 'Oh s*. I don't know who you are or what you want with us.'" Law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around and detain protesters since at least Tuesday. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation about why they are being arrested, and driving off. Now here's the quiz part: which of these describes Tiananmen Square and which describes Portland, OR? 1. http://www.jeffwidener.com/index.php?/stories/2016/09/tankman/ http://www.jeffwidener.com/index.php?/stories/2016/09/tankma... 2. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Tiananmen Square is the one where they massacred civilians with machine gun fire. That's the difference.
  - js2 6y ago
    Authoritarianism doesn’t happen all at once. Trump continues to test his limits. The DHS is currently being run by someone who was never approved by Congress and in violation of the law for how long an acting director is allowed to be in place. The DHS officers are now pushing our several blocks away from the Federal buildings. Compare Trump’s response to how the government responded to the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge where a federal building was occupied for 40 days and cost the Federal government millions of dollars. But the Feds didn’t escalate the situation like Trump and the DHS are attempting to do. This is a three block area of Portland. The city is not overrun. The protests are largely peaceful. I don’t condone the graffiti or anyone trying to damage the building but the Federal response is over the top and unjustified. Trump would like nothing more than a huge escalation in events. That there’s any similarity between the events in Tiananmen and in Portland by the authorities is not okay.
giardini 6y ago
There is no "secret police force". "Homeland Security" is a umbrella grouping of organizations that were independent pre-9/11 and who were combined after 9/11. Seemed like a good idea, at the time!8-)) When you're arrested you're arrested by someone from a particular agency: a Secret Service agent, a member of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the Federal Protective Service, the USDA, INS, etc. Creation of DHS "merely" brought 22 agencies under one umbrella for coordination. Of course, judgments and plans made in haste often age poorly. I'm not saying DHS is a good thing but there's a better explanation than the alarmist "HS was destined to become a secret police force." See "Break Up the Department of Homeland Security": https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/department-homeland-security-portland-border-patrol.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/department-homel... And remember Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
- anthony_romeo 6y ago
  I have a corollary to that: “Never dismiss evidence of malice by applying Hanlon’s Razor”
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Pithy statements should be a solid rhetorical technique for 6th grade debate class. They should also have no place intellectually mature discussion. That statements like Hanlan's Razor, Occam's Razor, should be regarded as "truths" is the kind of BS that propagandists use to elevate their position.
    - wbronitsky 6y ago
      I might add that insulting people might not provide a way to encourage “intellectually mature discussion” either.
      - Chris2048 6y ago
        Insulting bad arguments might encourage people who make those arguments to leave.
tlear 6y ago
Watch streams from the night time in Portland, then come back. Rioters try to stop anyone from filming but stuff still comes out.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  The people not protesting peacefully are confined to ~3 blocks, and there are not large numbers. The Portland police declare a riot each night (regardless of the state of the crowd) and start crowd control procedures, where they force people out of areas with noxious gas and other violent methods.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    They may be fewer people, and they may be confined area, but they are literally the reason federal officers are there. Peaceful protests are not a problem to anyone.
  - tlear 6y ago
    You do not need large numbers you need organization and will. They have both. The ONLY reason feds are there is because this Antifa “squad” been attacking the federal courthouse. Why they are doing that? Well to get feds to come so they can have their: “fight the gestapo” moment. Of course it is nothing like gestapo or nkvd(but Americans are ignorant of nkvd and antifas ideology is so close to Stalinism I guess calling feds nkvd would not work). But whatever you can turn against Trump right? And bring dictatorship of proletariat while you are at it
hintymad 6y ago
I'm confused. Did people attack federal buildings or not? If they did, is it expected that local police should intervene? If local police should but didn't, is it lawful that federal agents moved in? There are streams of videos that showed there were two groups: those who held peaceful protest before 1:00am or so, and those who rioted after 1:00am. Are those video telling the truth? Or are they edited out to mislead us? When did the federal agents move in? Did DHS director tell the truth in DHS' public debriefing? Did the video about riots played by Kayleigh McEnany tell the truth? Or all I saw are a bunch of alt-right propaganda? Or violence is the voice of unheard so by asking these questions I'm a disgusting evil person? And no, those are not rhetorical questions. I honestly don't have answers. For one, the so-called "arson" in front of the courthouse looked so small. It looks just a bunch of people burning cardboard for fun or for protesting. Probably still illegal, but I wouldn't call it violent or arson.
- parrellel 6y ago
  It certainly doesn't help that the right wing of the twitter-verse keeps posting videos and images of riots in other decades and countries and attributing them to Portland. It's such a bizarre mindfuck seeing repurposed videos from Ukraine or South America presented as the north west.
  - hintymad 6y ago
    Yeah, especially when trustworthy news and facts are all the more important now.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Yes, they did. There are explicit videos of people attempting to break into and set entrances on fire.
andrewalan 6y ago
I strongly recommend the service of a GREAT Hacker to you whose email is andrewalanhacks@gmail.com…I have used him quite a number of times and he has never disappointed me.He does all types of mobile hacks, fix school score or grades, clear DMV,get unrestricted and unnoticeable access to your Partner/Spouse, Skype, Facebook Account, Email(s), Whatsapp, Instagram, Text messages, In coming and Out going calls, Twitter, Snap Chats, Bank accounts, Viber, Deleted files, Emails and IPassword etc. Getting the job done is as simple as sending an email to andrewalanhacks@gmail.com or Whatsapp/Text 559-634-0249 stating what you want to do.......
andrewalan 6y ago
I strongly recommend the service of a GREAT Hacker to you whose email is andrewalanhacks@gmail.com…I have used him quite a number of times and he has never disappointed me.He does all types of mobile hacks, fix school score or grades, clear DMV,get unrestricted and unnoticeable access to your Partner/Spouse, Skype, Facebook Account, Email(s), Whatsapp, Instagram, Text messages, In coming and Out going calls, Twitter, Snap Chats, Bank accounts, Viber, Deleted files, Emails and IPassword etc. Getting the job done is as simple as sending an email to andrewalanhacks@gmail.com or Whatsapp/Text 559-634-0249 stating what you want to do.

242 points by jbegley 6y ago

It's like Homelander from "The Boys". An unaccountable menace that had a public image as a defender, reporting to dark interests.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

aww_dang 6y ago

Allegedly they used Markus Wolf (ex-Stasi chief) as a consultant in the formative days. Hard to track down a reliable source for this.

dylan604 6y ago
"Hard to track down a reliable source" sounds like a perfectly valid reason not to post an idea.
- ColanR 6y ago
  That would make it difficult to discuss theories for which reliable sources don't yet exist. A lot of truth first exists as rumor; how would you suggest that rumors be discussed?
  - xxpor 6y ago
    There's also a rumor that elites are kidnapping 900,000 kids a year to rape them and extract adrenochrome from their pituitary glands while still alive. It's hard to find a reliable source for this, but ah, nevertheless.
  - glitcher 6y ago
    And the discussion of too many unsubstantiated rumors gets us to the place where a very significant portion of the population are basically full blown conspiracy theorists. Then we find ourselves in a place where facts and science are transformed into beliefs. I don't think discussing rumors is inherently bad in moderation, but I guess moderation is a tough problem for us in many parts of society today.
    - ColanR 6y ago
      Well, I'm not saying we should jump to the other extreme - though, suppression or denial of rumors doesn't really help them go away. Streisand effect, etc. Rather, I'm just reacting to the parent's claim that we shouldn't discuss anything that doesn't already have substantiative evidence behind it - if we applied that principle more generally, physics would come to a standstill.
- fao_ 6y ago
  imagine if there was a place you could ask other people if they had heard this same thing. oh wait, there is!
- aww_dang 6y ago
  "A BBC radio interview circa 2004 given by the former head of the KGB, General Yevgeni Primakov, as well as a former congressman confirmed that Homeland Security hired Markus Wolf, the architect of the STASI informant program, as a consultant for DHS." Just hard to find the original interview. You're welcome to search yourself, or perhaps discuss something else?
  - icebraining 6y ago
    What's the origin of that quote?
    - aww_dang 6y ago
      https://www.progress-index.com/article/20130708/NEWS/307089939?template=ampart https://www.progress-index.com/article/20130708/NEWS/3070899...
      - NPMaxwell 6y ago
        Cool. HN timestamps show that took you no more than 5 minutes, maximum!
        aww_dang 6y ago
        Would have been happier with a transcript from the BBC.
  - pandaman 6y ago
    Probably it's hard to find because there has never been such a person at the head of KGB? There had been 8 chairmen (K in KGB stands for "committee" hence its head's title is "Chairman") in the whole history of this organization and none of them had this or similar name. The only KGB-related person with such name is Yevgeni Maksimovich Primakov, who had been a head of the KGB's 1st Department for a brief period of time in 1991, but he had been a civilian so not the same person as the "General Yevgeni Primakov".
- leafboi 6y ago
  The inception of every novel idea begins without a source; to enforce such a restriction is to ban the creation of ideas.
  - krapp 6y ago
    There are no novel ideas without a source. Every human concept and invention is based on some prior idea or knowledge. More importantly, every "idea" that attempts to aspire to fact has to be proven to be considered valid. The claim "Allegedly they used Markus Wolf (ex-Stasi chief) as a consultant in the formative days" is not merely a "novel idea" but an allegation, in other words, an idea that aspires to fact. The likely validity of this statement depends on its source. To assert that the above claim requires no source in order to be valid as fact simply because it is an "idea" is to ban the distinction between truth and fiction.
    - aww_dang 6y ago
      When speaking of third hand information reported in the media absolute terms like 'proven', 'fact' and 'valid' seem overly broad. Throw in the contentious nature of a political discussion on the Internet and you have a real mess.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - leafboi 6y ago
      >There are no novel ideas without a source. All sources are ideas in itself and If all "ideas" under your definition have a source, this means every source also has a source because they are ideas themselves. By induction this leads to the existence of ideas with an infinite chain of sources... Which is impossible. By logic, the Chain must terminate at an idea without a source. Thus it can be said that: All ideas are built from an idea without a source. We call this an "axiom" in mathematics. The exception to this rule is the existence of a cycle in this chain: An initial idea that refers to another idea that refers to the initial idea as its source; A closed loop. However, we as humans tend to shun these cycles as we call them "paradoxes." What the poster means by "novel idea" as opposed to "idea" is the terminal idea at the end of these source chains. In short, the inception of all "novel ideas" begin without a source. Again, we call this "novel idea" The axiom or the assumption. The strange thing about the axiom itself is an entity that "bans the distinction between truth and fiction" and is ironically the foundation of all human logic. Another word for this is a "paradox" something we both shun and use as the foundation for all human logic.

cturner 6y ago

This is political content. Every other news aggregation site on the planet covers this stuff. It detracts from hacker news.

Afforess 6y ago
What part of "Hacker" in "Hacker News" did you not notice? Hackers have always been involved in politics. This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service already existing without paying for what could be dirt-cheap if it wasn't run by profiteering gluttons, and you call us criminals. We explore... and you call us criminals. We seek after knowledge... and you call us criminals. We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals. You build atomic bombs, you wage wars, you murder, cheat, and lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals. (From the Hacker's Manifesto, 1986)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
perfmode 6y ago
hacking is a political act.
johnyzee 6y ago
Surveillance, information security, close enough, I'll allow it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

vz8 6y ago

Every so often, I look at a headline and think to myself before clicking: To VPN, or not VPN: that is the question.

ColanR 6y ago
I imagine that for such a threat model as you imply, a VPN would do rather little.
- manquer 6y ago
  Depends on the country the VPN provider is based out of. While there are many soft power actions like blocking payments etc to outright hacking American LEA can do to extract data from other countries orgs but legally there are no tools like NSL and FISA courts to get it .
nuker 6y ago
> To VPN, or not VPN Why not have always-on VPN? Not a nice experience for Google users, but screw Google, iCloud never complains on 'new device'.
- lima 6y ago
  > Not a nice experience for Google users, but screw Google, iCloud never complains on 'new device'. So you're saying Apple is worse at protecting you from suspicious logins?
  - nuker 6y ago
    Not worse, smarter.

webwielder2 6y ago

If Osama bin Laden “hated our freedom” as Bush said, then mission accomplished.

nipponese 6y ago
That one stings hard.
- marvindanig 6y ago
  Also, that impeached lunatic and his enablers managed to kill more American civilians than Bin Laden ever could in twenty years.
  - pavs 6y ago
    Which lunatic? Be more specific, Usa seems to have quite a few of them as president.
    - wiredfool 6y ago
      To be fair, impeached limits it to two living presidents.
      - vuln 6y ago
        There’s 3 presidents that have been impeached. Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.
        cameronbrown 6y ago
        The last impeachment failed though.
        dave5104 6y ago
        Trump's impeachment? No, he was impeached by the House of Representatives. He just wasn't convicted by the Senate and removed from office--perhaps that's what you consider a failure, though.

low_key 6y ago

Of course it was. I've even referred to it as the "Department of Motherland Security" since its inception.

rsynnott 6y ago

A particularly nasty case of nominative determinism; giving it such an obviously sinister name was never going to work out well.

Dwolb 6y ago

The key point this writer is making > we are watching the perfect and perhaps inevitable combination of a domestic-security superagency and a President who rejects all mechanisms of accountability, including the Senate confirmation process. Accountability appears to be broken with a two party system. Combined with a President who’s willing to push boundaries and a federal agency built to act more swiftly with broader powers, we could see a lot more civil strife before this term is up.

rsynnott 6y ago
I think the presidential system is also a factor; it makes it a little too obvious and immutable where the blame lies. In a parliamentary system, there’s much more scope for the ruling party to resolve this sort of thing by, say, quietly sacrificing the minister for justice, without much blame attaching to the PM (even if it’s their fault to begin with). In a presidential system it’s harder to do this without criticising dear leader. I can’t imagine many republican leaders are actually very happy about this whole mess, but very few of them are willing to publicly break ranks and they have limited ability to check the executive even if they do.
- vsskanth 6y ago
  The equivalent here is asking for the resignation of the DHS secretary. Unfortunately, that has already happened when ICE separated children from their families. A second resignation would only make the president look bad.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  >I can’t imagine many republican leaders are actually very happy about this whole mess, but very few of them are willing to publicly break ranks I think this is one of the most fundamental factors in the breakdown at higher levels of discourse. Most liberals I personally know used to put a strong emphasis on benefit of the doubt and pragmatism when it came to judging Republican leadership - there was always plenty of strong criticism, but there was also a lot of "well, in such-and-such case, they are just doing what they honestly think is best for the country". But that attitude is now utterly gone, because of the silence of such leaders on the incredibly overt hatred and unreasonableness of Trump and other proponents of spite-motivated authoritarianism. They still have plenty of good faith for Republicans, but what's changed is that they now have absolutely zero for Republican leaders. What's happening is awful.

clarkevans 6y ago

There is speculation [1] that the federal officers deployed to Portland include not only government employees, but also private security contractors. This seems reminiscent of "Pinkerton's National Detective Agency". If accurate, this undermines the legitimacy of the deployment, and perhaps explains why official identification for many of the officers is not provided. [1] https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0 https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-respondi...

ideals 6y ago
In such a case, shouldn't this be a good application for facial recognition software? These federal police should show up in databases confirming their identities, whether that's a federal db or a relatives FB page. Maybe we should be using ClearView AI to keep the police honest.
- Kednicma 6y ago
  The police cover their faces, and make face coverings illegal. In the past, this has worked very well; the main change now is that we have a social expectation that law-abiding folks will wear face coverings, and in even more of an inversion, folks without face coverings are suspect. In neither situation would facial recognition systems make things better for the populace.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
There is no evidence of this and this speculation is false.
- licyeus 6y ago
  The former secretary of DHS stated this week that DHS's Federal Protection Service (the forces deployed in Portland) are mostly private contractors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJPLAZNNkc&feature=youtu.be&t=63 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfJPLAZNNkc&feature=youtu.be... Evidence enough?
6y ago

bfieidhbrjr 6y ago

There are really 2, 3 or 4 protests. There's the BLM daylight protestors... There's the "moms" in the evening... Then there's the anarchists/antifa at 2am. Before you judge what the DHS is doing, watch the videos from 2am. I think many people are watching the peaceful daytime videos and seeing DHS as overreacting. Which it would be. I don't think it's overreacting to people setting the court house on fire, hitting police in the head with hammers or destroying businesses. You can find videos of this easily even though the "protestors" tend to beat up and eject "unofficial" camera people. And they've been doing this for 2 MONTHS, way before DHS arrived with a mission to protect federal property, which we all pay for.

thebooktocome 6y ago
Truly crimes worthy of being wounded, maimed, and killed without either indictment or trial.
- sky_lounge 6y ago
  No one picked up in Portland by an unmarked car was killed maimed etc..
  - klyrs 6y ago
    So if I were to grab you off of the street, question you, refuse to answer your questions and drop you off 30 minutes later without physically harming you... you'd be fine with that?
    - leereeves 6y ago
      That's actually happened to me (except out of my house, not off the street) when my house was misidentified as the location of a domestic violence call. It was disturbing and a little frightening, but yes, in hindsight I am fine with it. I hope they found the right house and found the person they were looking for.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

As someone who has advocated for strong states rights (a position that’s traditionally not held by the progressive left over the last decade) I find these times to be interesting, and full of ideological dissonance. People are asking for a federal mandate on masks, but at the same time want no federal enforcement of these laws? How about neither? I hate seeing a world where “federal police” come in and squash local protests, and it bugs me that previously state rights advocates are calling for it.

aww_dang 6y ago
This is typical of today's divisive atmosphere. Do you remember the other BLM (Bureau of Land Management) protests in Oregon? I recall outraged partisans demanding federal intervention, while claiming that the ranchers were enjoying special privileges due to their race. I believe they called them "vanilla ISIS". Of course individuals within any movement will vary, but generally speaking, partisans want to use the power of the state against their ideological opponents. When it is used against them, they predictably cry foul.
- NPMaxwell 6y ago
  I think maybe the issue here is that the press did not cover the unidentified federal agents arresting the BLM protesters. The result is that it looks like the treatment of the Portland protesters is different.
- chowells 6y ago
  Do you actually believe that graffiti and a couple small fires rise to the same level of criminality as an armed takeover of federal land? It's fully possible to believe the federal government should put a stop to armed takeovers of federal land and not be involved in graffiti on non-federal property without it being a partisan thing. The problem is that people believe the protests in Portland are violent riots. They aren't. As long as people are manipulated so easily, I guess real policy discussions aren't going to happen.
  - aww_dang 6y ago

annoyingnoob 6y ago

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.

rasz 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution
- jbay808 6y ago
  ... And? Did you post this in the wrong thread, or do you want to imply something about the French Revolution's relevance to the above quote but can't be bothered to explain your point? The French Revolution began as a bloodbath and ended in Napoleon rampaging across Europe, so it would seem like a case in point. Is that what you meant?
  - rasz 6y ago
    French Revolution is a perfect counter example nullifying MLK point. Yes, a lot of violence and chopped heads can in fact establish better future for all.
    - pjkundert 6y ago
      A future where utopia where “the last politician is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”? Let us know how that works out.
    - cloverich 6y ago
      ...the French revolution led to Napoleon though, and several more wars after. Did they cause the better future? Was the substantial violence and ethnic cleansing _following_ WW2 part of that future? I am far from an expert on the subject but I've yet to hear the argument you are presenting. Curious to hear a more substantive version of it.

sky_lounge 6y ago

The premise of the article has almost nothing to do with current events. One can dislike how/why DHS was created and also believe that order needs to be restored the area by the feds. As for the "unmarked cars" picking people up, what is actually happening to these people? Is it catch and release? It seems pretty tame to me. Should they just let the protesters/rioters burn down the courthouse? As to whether they are protesters or rioters, ask whether you think Peter Schiff could do what he did during occupy and stroll into the crowd attempting to debate and defend capitalism with the folk (which I think he failed to do at all, but more just the fact he was able to try it there is significant)? The answer is of course not; he'd probably be beaten or severely injured.

annoyingnoob 6y ago
>As for the "unmarked cars" picking people up, what is actually happening to these people? Is it catch and release? It seems pretty tame to me. Its illegal to detain people for no reason. How will you feel when it happens to you? > Should they just let the protesters/rioters burn down the courthouse? That is an interesting perspective. And its one that a lot of people currently hold toward the police. Does one (or even a few) bad apple spoil the bunch? Do you think that protesters like the Navy Vet, Naked Athena, the Wall of Moms, and even the Mayor of Portland really want to burn down a Federal building?
- sky_lounge 6y ago
  > Its illegal to detain people for no reason. I agree and I find these events troubling. But I also want to put them in perspective. > Does one (or even a few) bad apple spoil the bunch? I don't understand the point you're making here. > Do you think that protesters like the Navy Vet, Naked Athena, the Wall of Moms, and even the Mayor of Portland really want to burn down a Federal building? As another commenter said, there are about 3 different groups with different adgendas operating in the area.
  - annoyingnoob 6y ago
    Who exactly is calling for the the courthouse to burn? That is my point, while there may be some troublemakers the vast majority are not. While some find calls to defund the police offensive, others find the call to stop people from exercising their rights offensive.

johnyzee 6y ago

Related to these mysterious federal agents in unmarked cars, I've often wondered how private citizens are supposed to protect themselves against someone impersonating law enforcement. In this case, the 'officers' were not even dressed as law enforcement, and either way, it is not very difficult to produce a reasonably convincing replica of a uniform. How can you make sure that you are dealing with actual law enforcement, when you submit yourself to them, they cuff you, take your stuff, drive you away, etc.? "Can I see your badge?" doesn't seem very effective, given that a badge can easily be faked, but more importantly you'd probably, for good reason, be too afraid to even ask. Is America really such a police state now that you are just supposed to submit to anyone in a uniform? And does this not seem ripe for abuse to everyone else?

btmiller 6y ago
I never thought I’d be advocating for the 2A, but...
- kebman 6y ago
  It's what it's for.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    Unfortunately a lot of 2A enthusiasts seem to be perfectly fine with the militarization of police and harassment of minorities and protestors, because to them it's the "right people" getting the short end of the stick.
    - 1123581321 6y ago
      This is just a frequently repeated meme. There is no evidence for it.
      - orf 6y ago
        I’m looking for a statement by the NRA condemning what’s happening, reminding people that this kind of government oppression is what the 2A is all about and that regardless of your political views we should stand united in our willingness to bear arms against this incursion into our freedoms. I haven’t found it yet. Lots of stuff about demonic Democrats stripping freedoms though. Strange.

graycat 6y ago

For another view, can read the comments of Disqus user JLM at the blog https://continuations.com/post/624305968188145664/help-stop-fascism https://continuations.com/post/624305968188145664/help-stop-... There the relevant law is quoted and explained. So, in short, the DHS has the FPS (Federal Protective Service), and their job is > "... safeguarding Federal owned and leased facilities and has been since 1790. The FPS is part of the DHS. ... The Customs and Border Protection unit is legally supporting the Federal Protective Service because the particular unit -- the Border Patrol Tactical Unit -- BORTAC -- is highly trained in riot control operations." There are lots more details by JLM there including quotes of the relevant laws, e.g., 40 USC 1315. So, the FPS was in Portland to protect Federal property as in 40 USC 1315. In simplest terms, the Federal work there in Portland was protecting Federal property. Policing Portland in general was not part of the work. The article mentioned "secret police": To set that aside, just read the JLM quotes and explanations of the laws.

defnotashton2 6y ago
Except they are blocks away from the courthouse.
- graycat 6y ago
  There's an explanation for that, good, bad, or otherwise. The claim is that they didn't want to dive into an angry, violent, dense mob to arrest people because that would be dangerous. For an arrest away from the action, all I saw was one video clip. For how general that was, I saw no information. I was concerned about that one video clip, but without more information I'm ready to set it aside as poor judgment, a mistake, a one time thing, or some such. I need more information. But, still, broadly, the "FPS" was not there, in either theory or practice, for the scary reason, Federal forces, not wanted in Portland, inserted to police the city, etc. Even given the one video clip, the FPS was clearly not policing the city. And for protecting the Federal courthouse, they were not over doing it since the courthouse was significantly damaged. Can read the reference I gave and conclude that the FPS, CBP, and DHS were just doing what the laws said they were supposed to do. For the laws, does anyone have any better ideas how the Feds can protect Fed property? Uh, supposedly that is actually not the job of the local police, that usually there is an agreement that the line is the center line on the street in front of the Fed building with the FPS on their side and local police on the other. IMHO the Portland case does not look like some start on Federal secret police. For the Chicago case, as best as I can see from the media, the Feds are there just to help local police with murder, etc. investigations and not on the street police work and were invited in by the mayor of Chicago.

fallingfrog 6y ago

Reminds me of this scene from the watchmen. An example of art anticipating reality. https://youtu.be/ShTVpGuzk1M https://youtu.be/ShTVpGuzk1M

pengaru 6y ago
A Scanner Darkly had a more apropos gestapo in unmarked van scurrying away a protester scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7591jlrL0&t=1m10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7591jlrL0&t=1m10s
fallingfrog 6y ago
Come on guys the Comedian shoots a guy with a tear gas canister and then says “what happened to the American Dream? It came true!” That’s pretty on the nose.

smitty1e 6y ago

> The creation of the D.H.S. marked a shift in the way that Americans think and talk about the country, and about people. Oh, please. We went from being "these United States" to being "the United States" after the Civil War, and not without reason. A century back, under Wilson, we brought in 16A, 17A & the Federal Reserve. If there is substantial interest in redistributing power, not wealth, via Washington D.C., then we need https://conventionofstates.com/ https://conventionofstates.com/ Anything less is so much Mary Kay on the swine herd.

js2 6y ago

There's this quiz on the web where you're given a dozen names and have to guess if they are the names of My Little Ponies or porn stars. In that vein, here's another quiz: Story 1: In the late evening hours, the sound of sporadic gunfire was heard all over the city. There were many white vans driving around the streets searching for people. During one incident, plainclothes police jumped out of a sliding door, grabbed a civilian and then sped off. Story 2: They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them. "I see guys in camo. Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, 'Oh s*. I don't know who you are or what you want with us.'" Law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around and detain protesters since at least Tuesday. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation about why they are being arrested, and driving off. Now here's the quiz part: which of these describes Tiananmen Square and which describes Portland, OR? 1. http://www.jeffwidener.com/index.php?/stories/2016/09/tankman/ http://www.jeffwidener.com/index.php?/stories/2016/09/tankma... 2. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-to-grab-protesters-in-portland https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...

koheripbal 6y ago
Tiananmen Square is the one where they massacred civilians with machine gun fire. That's the difference.
- js2 6y ago
  Authoritarianism doesn’t happen all at once. Trump continues to test his limits. The DHS is currently being run by someone who was never approved by Congress and in violation of the law for how long an acting director is allowed to be in place. The DHS officers are now pushing our several blocks away from the Federal buildings. Compare Trump’s response to how the government responded to the Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge where a federal building was occupied for 40 days and cost the Federal government millions of dollars. But the Feds didn’t escalate the situation like Trump and the DHS are attempting to do. This is a three block area of Portland. The city is not overrun. The protests are largely peaceful. I don’t condone the graffiti or anyone trying to damage the building but the Federal response is over the top and unjustified. Trump would like nothing more than a huge escalation in events. That there’s any similarity between the events in Tiananmen and in Portland by the authorities is not okay.

giardini 6y ago

There is no "secret police force". "Homeland Security" is a umbrella grouping of organizations that were independent pre-9/11 and who were combined after 9/11. Seemed like a good idea, at the time!8-)) When you're arrested you're arrested by someone from a particular agency: a Secret Service agent, a member of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the Federal Protective Service, the USDA, INS, etc. Creation of DHS "merely" brought 22 agencies under one umbrella for coordination. Of course, judgments and plans made in haste often age poorly. I'm not saying DHS is a good thing but there's a better explanation than the alarmist "HS was destined to become a secret police force." See "Break Up the Department of Homeland Security": https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/department-homeland-security-portland-border-patrol.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/department-homel... And remember Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

anthony_romeo 6y ago
I have a corollary to that: “Never dismiss evidence of malice by applying Hanlon’s Razor”
- sitkack 6y ago
  Pithy statements should be a solid rhetorical technique for 6th grade debate class. They should also have no place intellectually mature discussion. That statements like Hanlan's Razor, Occam's Razor, should be regarded as "truths" is the kind of BS that propagandists use to elevate their position.
  - wbronitsky 6y ago
    I might add that insulting people might not provide a way to encourage “intellectually mature discussion” either.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      Insulting bad arguments might encourage people who make those arguments to leave.

tlear 6y ago

Watch streams from the night time in Portland, then come back. Rioters try to stop anyone from filming but stuff still comes out.

maxerickson 6y ago
The people not protesting peacefully are confined to ~3 blocks, and there are not large numbers. The Portland police declare a riot each night (regardless of the state of the crowd) and start crowd control procedures, where they force people out of areas with noxious gas and other violent methods.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  They may be fewer people, and they may be confined area, but they are literally the reason federal officers are there. Peaceful protests are not a problem to anyone.
- tlear 6y ago
  You do not need large numbers you need organization and will. They have both. The ONLY reason feds are there is because this Antifa “squad” been attacking the federal courthouse. Why they are doing that? Well to get feds to come so they can have their: “fight the gestapo” moment. Of course it is nothing like gestapo or nkvd(but Americans are ignorant of nkvd and antifas ideology is so close to Stalinism I guess calling feds nkvd would not work). But whatever you can turn against Trump right? And bring dictatorship of proletariat while you are at it

hintymad 6y ago

I'm confused. Did people attack federal buildings or not? If they did, is it expected that local police should intervene? If local police should but didn't, is it lawful that federal agents moved in? There are streams of videos that showed there were two groups: those who held peaceful protest before 1:00am or so, and those who rioted after 1:00am. Are those video telling the truth? Or are they edited out to mislead us? When did the federal agents move in? Did DHS director tell the truth in DHS' public debriefing? Did the video about riots played by Kayleigh McEnany tell the truth? Or all I saw are a bunch of alt-right propaganda? Or violence is the voice of unheard so by asking these questions I'm a disgusting evil person? And no, those are not rhetorical questions. I honestly don't have answers. For one, the so-called "arson" in front of the courthouse looked so small. It looks just a bunch of people burning cardboard for fun or for protesting. Probably still illegal, but I wouldn't call it violent or arson.

parrellel 6y ago
It certainly doesn't help that the right wing of the twitter-verse keeps posting videos and images of riots in other decades and countries and attributing them to Portland. It's such a bizarre mindfuck seeing repurposed videos from Ukraine or South America presented as the north west.
- hintymad 6y ago
  Yeah, especially when trustworthy news and facts are all the more important now.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
koheripbal 6y ago
Yes, they did. There are explicit videos of people attempting to break into and set entrances on fire.

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