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I have pretty much given up on everybody at this point. I have already pulled my kid from school and will not send them back. I am in a single income family a

I have pretty much given up on everybody at this point. I have already pulled my kid from school and will not send them back. I am in a single income family and I am now working from home. All actions and purchases at this point are to help us to become more independant from the system. Society and government at large has shown itself to be unreliable and undependable. I am also making longer term plans to move out of my current state. So good luck everyone with the education system.

Florin_Andrei 6y ago
The real illness is on a different level - it's the way the main culture in the US sees and understands the world. It makes some spectacularly wrong assumptions there. But those assumptions were never seriously challenged (no enemies nearby, dominance after WW2), so then why change, right? Now those assumptions are being challenged. And of course a lot of people, rather than change and give up their cherished "identity", would plow ahead blindly, consequences be damned. Everyone who is protesting masks, I am looking at you and your beliefs. This has happened many times in history. Societies get their beliefs challenged by reality. Some adapt, fix their stuff, and go on. Some don't. There is still time to change. But not much.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Your only example here is 'masks'. The rest of your comment could equally be applied to the american left or right, depending on your perspective.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Masks were also protested in 1918, so this isn’t a post-WW2 phenomenon.
    - timmytokyo 6y ago
      There were pockets of resistance to mask wearing in the 1918 flu pandemic, but it was not widespread. https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-resistance https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-r... Also, they didn't have government leadership publicly questioning the wisdom of mask wearing.
cool_dude85 6y ago
Not sure where you're from, but in many places, "society and government" has not failed people the same way it has in the US. Even within the US there are some places where local and state government have performed much better than places like Florida or NYC. That is to say, the problem is not, conceptually, "society and government", but instead, the American society and American government we have today. Don't give up! Don't withdraw! Organize and fight to improve the systems that are exacerbating this crisis.
- antepodius 6y ago
  Withdrawing and becoming independent from state systems isn't giving up; it's probably a first step towards a more organic, liberated society.
  - clairity 6y ago
    the action can have a variety of impetuses, but @eaandkw literally stated they're giving up.
    - antepodius 6y ago
      Giving up on one approach vetsus another, because the incentive balance has shifted. From a consequentalist point of view, the impetus is secondary- if you think people would be better off being less reliant on the state, then any time they take actions towards that, it's good.
    - eaandkw 6y ago
      The context of what I mean by saying that I am giving up is that institutions, government, and corporations are unreliable. I can't make decisions based on conditions as they are today because as soon as I do the rug will be pulled out from under me and leave me on my butt. This means that if I had a great idea for a business I will decide not to start that business. That vacation that I was planning won't happen anymore. Certain cities I may have been inclined to visit I won't enter anymore. Heck I even have to self-censor myself now for any thoughts I have because who knows who is going to get offended and try to prevent me from having a job, credit card, or even an opinion. That is mostly what I mean.
dv_dt 6y ago
I am lucky enough that the local school district and university my kids go to are either outright online, or offering online options. But if that were not the case, I would be where you are, and I would also support teachers striking over the lack of fundamental workplace safety of in person teaching right now. From the rough impressions of my reading of research, indoor transmission in groups is the easiest way to pass an infection.
Oxx 6y ago
Good. The current state of the world is incredibly unnatural when you compare it to even 50 years ago. Everything is too connected. We are so much more efficient, but so much more fragile. The best thing you can do to save the world is save yourself and your family. Less fragility, more robustness at the personal / local level. I am mid twenties, and was homeschooled my entire childhood. My father owned a technology company, and brought me to work with him most days. People talk about homeschooling being damaging due to the lack of exposure to the "real world", but I have had more exposure to reality than most, due to the constant exposure to actual working life. Don't be afraid of "sheltering" your children by not having them be part of the system. There is so much more out there than the system. Your kids will turn out weird vs other kids raised in the standard environment, but its a good kind of weird. My family was very involved with the homeschooling movement in our state, so I am more exposed than most to the sub-culture. Feel free to ask me any more specific questions.
- nopinsight 6y ago
  How do parents help their kids learn once they reach middle school or high school level and the materials get more challenging? I understand that many good online courses exist but they are not full substitutes of in-person discussions and personalized feedback for essays, for example. It can take quite a bit of time to understand or even review materials. Some families might not have the necessary background as well.
  - nvahalik 6y ago
    You learn with them, basically. Or you find other people in your community that can help. I’m not sure about others but most people don’t homeschool in isolation.
    - cortesoft 6y ago
      > Or you find other people in your community that can help. But that is school.
      - 6y ago
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
I think one of the things that has been so disheartening to me about the pandemic is that it has shown how we just can't really do anything anymore in the US. I mean, just look at PPE. I understand being a little flat footed when the pandemic first started, but it's been nearly 6 months now. I would have expected mass mobilization to pump out N95 masks, gloves, gowns, face shields, etc. by the millions. I mean, look how many heavy military vehicles the US managed to build during WWII, and then consider we can't even build masks of sufficient quantity. And this just follows an ever growing set of problems that the US has just oddly accepted without the political will to do anything, things like our totally f'd healthcare system, mass shootings, climate change, etc. I disagree, though, with the sibling comment that says "Don't give up! Don't withdraw!" It's not like there aren't other functioning societies in the world that are way less broken than the US. Staying behind in some mythical "fight" is just misplaced patriotism IMO. There are other countries that live the ideals that I used to associate with America (real freedom, upward mobility, democracy, rule of law, etc.) much better than the US does these days.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Which countries are you thinking of?
- nickff 6y ago
  If you want an increase in mask supply, you have to either allow the pricing mechanism to do its job, or force people to make masks. Given the (very popular) laws against price gauging, it seems like the only viable option is to force some companies to manufacture more masks. Production capacity is available, but at a higher cost than is currently economical. All that being said, your second point seems correct to me, and I doubt anything will be done (as a result of the political quagmire).
  - not2b 6y ago
    That's why we have mechanisms like the Defense Production Act. Under normal circumstances the free market works well, but sometimes in a crisis it isn't enough. We are in a crisis.
kenned3 6y ago
"Society and government at large has shown itself to be unreliable and undependable." Take a look at the covid19 infection rates in the country a little north of you.. as others have posted, not all governments / society has failed. You need to ask why you have so many people who are proud not to wear a mask simply because it limits their "Freedoms"?? Maybe if they wore a mask, and excersized social distancing things wouldnt be this bad?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
redthrow 6y ago
Economist Bryan Caplan (who wrote the book The Case Against Education) has been homeschooling his kids for 5 years and shares his thoughts on the topic: https://www.econlib.org/emergency-homeschooling-a-how-to-guide/ https://www.econlib.org/emergency-homeschooling-a-how-to-gui... There's a video interview where he talks about social aspects as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_qg27UubM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_qg27UubM
jorblumesea 6y ago
This is completely intentional and the natural growth of right wing political ideologies that has been building since the 80s. There has been a concerted effort by some to make the government unreliable. There are vested interests in getting the government out of many things it does, and lots of profit to be made taking over what the government provides. The right has, for awhile, been ideologically opposed the government funded education, for example. If the government is unreliable, it's because the US has elected people that make it so. Government works fine in many countries around the world. Canada, Europe, Australia... all seem in far better shape. We're just intentionally crippling it for ideological and profit reasons. US voters who voted Trump into office are also largely to blame. No one to blame but ourselves. Projecting anger onto "the system" is missing the picture. To put it another way, if you want your government to work for the people, stop voting people into office who are very obviously breaking the government because they are zealots or greedy.
mayneack 6y ago
I think Matt Stoller makes some good points on this sort of topic. https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-handle-the-coronavirus https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-handle-t... https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-new-york-city-is-on-the-verge https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-new-york-city-is-on-t...
charwalker 6y ago
A uniquely American view of independence and rights has become a uniquely american problem with helping our neighbor, unfortunately. Nations with more collective oriented values appear to have done much better. Just sucks to not have a solution for people who spend their lives teaching (and babysitting, managing, mentoring, and more) our youth.
- gimmeThaBeet 6y ago
  While I do worry to myself if that's making monoliths, I think you're right. One way or another, this situation tests a country/culture's ability to implement collective behavior/protections where the benefits don't accrue to the person taking the actions. Social distancing has its obvious social costs, and my feeling (I couldn't definitively call it understanding) with masks is that it's more about protecting people from you, and not the other way around. I think no matter how you break it down, the USA has proven so far it's poorly suited to do carry that out for each other.
Press2forEN 6y ago
We're currently looking for a new home and this disaster has completely changed what we're looking for. Before it was clean suburbs with great schools close to the city. Now we're looking for more property much farther out and even considering states that didn't lock down so tightly. Good schools are no longer a consideration as we will home school as well. The social contract theory has failed, and we're preparing now for a future without it.
heimatau 6y ago
I've felt this way from the get go. Albeit, I'm not a single family (we have two parents) but...I'm an advocate for homeschooling. I have been for about a decade now. I've noticed a lot of different parenting styles growing up and education matters tremendously but not just book smarts, but emotional intelligence, dealing with various people, skills, and even high valued skills. As I've lived my life and looked into multiple system, I feel the American education has failed it's students for well over 30 years. The student that succeed? The ones that knows that school is more than 9am to 2pm (or whatever depending on the age). I feel it's best taught in the home. As the child ages and more skilled studies are required, yes they'll learn from teachers but parents can get very far with a child, if you encourage them to learn and foster their curiosity. Finally, I'll conclude with this. I feel very grateful for this covid19 because this will now help more resources to improve the quality/efficiency of homeschooling. I look forward to using these new resources that will rise up.

Florin_Andrei 6y ago

The real illness is on a different level - it's the way the main culture in the US sees and understands the world. It makes some spectacularly wrong assumptions there. But those assumptions were never seriously challenged (no enemies nearby, dominance after WW2), so then why change, right? Now those assumptions are being challenged. And of course a lot of people, rather than change and give up their cherished "identity", would plow ahead blindly, consequences be damned. Everyone who is protesting masks, I am looking at you and your beliefs. This has happened many times in history. Societies get their beliefs challenged by reality. Some adapt, fix their stuff, and go on. Some don't. There is still time to change. But not much.

antepodius 6y ago
Your only example here is 'masks'. The rest of your comment could equally be applied to the american left or right, depending on your perspective.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Masks were also protested in 1918, so this isn’t a post-WW2 phenomenon.
  - timmytokyo 6y ago
    There were pockets of resistance to mask wearing in the 1918 flu pandemic, but it was not widespread. https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-resistance https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-r... Also, they didn't have government leadership publicly questioning the wisdom of mask wearing.

cool_dude85 6y ago

Not sure where you're from, but in many places, "society and government" has not failed people the same way it has in the US. Even within the US there are some places where local and state government have performed much better than places like Florida or NYC. That is to say, the problem is not, conceptually, "society and government", but instead, the American society and American government we have today. Don't give up! Don't withdraw! Organize and fight to improve the systems that are exacerbating this crisis.

antepodius 6y ago
Withdrawing and becoming independent from state systems isn't giving up; it's probably a first step towards a more organic, liberated society.
- clairity 6y ago
  the action can have a variety of impetuses, but @eaandkw literally stated they're giving up.
  - antepodius 6y ago
    Giving up on one approach vetsus another, because the incentive balance has shifted. From a consequentalist point of view, the impetus is secondary- if you think people would be better off being less reliant on the state, then any time they take actions towards that, it's good.
  - eaandkw 6y ago
    The context of what I mean by saying that I am giving up is that institutions, government, and corporations are unreliable. I can't make decisions based on conditions as they are today because as soon as I do the rug will be pulled out from under me and leave me on my butt. This means that if I had a great idea for a business I will decide not to start that business. That vacation that I was planning won't happen anymore. Certain cities I may have been inclined to visit I won't enter anymore. Heck I even have to self-censor myself now for any thoughts I have because who knows who is going to get offended and try to prevent me from having a job, credit card, or even an opinion. That is mostly what I mean.

dv_dt 6y ago

I am lucky enough that the local school district and university my kids go to are either outright online, or offering online options. But if that were not the case, I would be where you are, and I would also support teachers striking over the lack of fundamental workplace safety of in person teaching right now. From the rough impressions of my reading of research, indoor transmission in groups is the easiest way to pass an infection.

Oxx 6y ago

Good. The current state of the world is incredibly unnatural when you compare it to even 50 years ago. Everything is too connected. We are so much more efficient, but so much more fragile. The best thing you can do to save the world is save yourself and your family. Less fragility, more robustness at the personal / local level. I am mid twenties, and was homeschooled my entire childhood. My father owned a technology company, and brought me to work with him most days. People talk about homeschooling being damaging due to the lack of exposure to the "real world", but I have had more exposure to reality than most, due to the constant exposure to actual working life. Don't be afraid of "sheltering" your children by not having them be part of the system. There is so much more out there than the system. Your kids will turn out weird vs other kids raised in the standard environment, but its a good kind of weird. My family was very involved with the homeschooling movement in our state, so I am more exposed than most to the sub-culture. Feel free to ask me any more specific questions.

nopinsight 6y ago
How do parents help their kids learn once they reach middle school or high school level and the materials get more challenging? I understand that many good online courses exist but they are not full substitutes of in-person discussions and personalized feedback for essays, for example. It can take quite a bit of time to understand or even review materials. Some families might not have the necessary background as well.
- nvahalik 6y ago
  You learn with them, basically. Or you find other people in your community that can help. I’m not sure about others but most people don’t homeschool in isolation.
  - cortesoft 6y ago
    > Or you find other people in your community that can help. But that is school.
    - 6y ago

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

I think one of the things that has been so disheartening to me about the pandemic is that it has shown how we just can't really do anything anymore in the US. I mean, just look at PPE. I understand being a little flat footed when the pandemic first started, but it's been nearly 6 months now. I would have expected mass mobilization to pump out N95 masks, gloves, gowns, face shields, etc. by the millions. I mean, look how many heavy military vehicles the US managed to build during WWII, and then consider we can't even build masks of sufficient quantity. And this just follows an ever growing set of problems that the US has just oddly accepted without the political will to do anything, things like our totally f'd healthcare system, mass shootings, climate change, etc. I disagree, though, with the sibling comment that says "Don't give up! Don't withdraw!" It's not like there aren't other functioning societies in the world that are way less broken than the US. Staying behind in some mythical "fight" is just misplaced patriotism IMO. There are other countries that live the ideals that I used to associate with America (real freedom, upward mobility, democracy, rule of law, etc.) much better than the US does these days.

partyboat1586 6y ago
Which countries are you thinking of?
nickff 6y ago
If you want an increase in mask supply, you have to either allow the pricing mechanism to do its job, or force people to make masks. Given the (very popular) laws against price gauging, it seems like the only viable option is to force some companies to manufacture more masks. Production capacity is available, but at a higher cost than is currently economical. All that being said, your second point seems correct to me, and I doubt anything will be done (as a result of the political quagmire).
- not2b 6y ago
  That's why we have mechanisms like the Defense Production Act. Under normal circumstances the free market works well, but sometimes in a crisis it isn't enough. We are in a crisis.

kenned3 6y ago

"Society and government at large has shown itself to be unreliable and undependable." Take a look at the covid19 infection rates in the country a little north of you.. as others have posted, not all governments / society has failed. You need to ask why you have so many people who are proud not to wear a mask simply because it limits their "Freedoms"?? Maybe if they wore a mask, and excersized social distancing things wouldnt be this bad?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

redthrow 6y ago

Economist Bryan Caplan (who wrote the book The Case Against Education) has been homeschooling his kids for 5 years and shares his thoughts on the topic: https://www.econlib.org/emergency-homeschooling-a-how-to-guide/ https://www.econlib.org/emergency-homeschooling-a-how-to-gui... There's a video interview where he talks about social aspects as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_qg27UubM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_qg27UubM

jorblumesea 6y ago

This is completely intentional and the natural growth of right wing political ideologies that has been building since the 80s. There has been a concerted effort by some to make the government unreliable. There are vested interests in getting the government out of many things it does, and lots of profit to be made taking over what the government provides. The right has, for awhile, been ideologically opposed the government funded education, for example. If the government is unreliable, it's because the US has elected people that make it so. Government works fine in many countries around the world. Canada, Europe, Australia... all seem in far better shape. We're just intentionally crippling it for ideological and profit reasons. US voters who voted Trump into office are also largely to blame. No one to blame but ourselves. Projecting anger onto "the system" is missing the picture. To put it another way, if you want your government to work for the people, stop voting people into office who are very obviously breaking the government because they are zealots or greedy.

mayneack 6y ago

I think Matt Stoller makes some good points on this sort of topic. https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-handle-the-coronavirus https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-handle-t... https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-new-york-city-is-on-the-verge https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/why-new-york-city-is-on-t...

charwalker 6y ago

A uniquely American view of independence and rights has become a uniquely american problem with helping our neighbor, unfortunately. Nations with more collective oriented values appear to have done much better. Just sucks to not have a solution for people who spend their lives teaching (and babysitting, managing, mentoring, and more) our youth.

gimmeThaBeet 6y ago
While I do worry to myself if that's making monoliths, I think you're right. One way or another, this situation tests a country/culture's ability to implement collective behavior/protections where the benefits don't accrue to the person taking the actions. Social distancing has its obvious social costs, and my feeling (I couldn't definitively call it understanding) with masks is that it's more about protecting people from you, and not the other way around. I think no matter how you break it down, the USA has proven so far it's poorly suited to do carry that out for each other.

Press2forEN 6y ago

We're currently looking for a new home and this disaster has completely changed what we're looking for. Before it was clean suburbs with great schools close to the city. Now we're looking for more property much farther out and even considering states that didn't lock down so tightly. Good schools are no longer a consideration as we will home school as well. The social contract theory has failed, and we're preparing now for a future without it.

heimatau 6y ago

I've felt this way from the get go. Albeit, I'm not a single family (we have two parents) but...I'm an advocate for homeschooling. I have been for about a decade now. I've noticed a lot of different parenting styles growing up and education matters tremendously but not just book smarts, but emotional intelligence, dealing with various people, skills, and even high valued skills. As I've lived my life and looked into multiple system, I feel the American education has failed it's students for well over 30 years. The student that succeed? The ones that knows that school is more than 9am to 2pm (or whatever depending on the age). I feel it's best taught in the home. As the child ages and more skilled studies are required, yes they'll learn from teachers but parents can get very far with a child, if you encourage them to learn and foster their curiosity. Finally, I'll conclude with this. I feel very grateful for this covid19 because this will now help more resources to improve the quality/efficiency of homeschooling. I look forward to using these new resources that will rise up.