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No!!! Of all the names in the world why this. "Hey bro, let's chat on Element" ,not quite a ring to it. The hardest problem in computer science strikes again!
by badrabbit 6y ago
No!!! Of all the names in the world why this. "Hey bro, let's chat on Element" ,not quite a ring to it.
The hardest problem in computer science strikes again!
Matrix,Riot and Libolm are epic projects, I wish them all the success but man, even Riot was a hard sell as a brand. I would seriously be dissapointed if it loses popularity over this. I don't think the project maintainers understand that their core users/fans are waiting for a product they can sell to friends,family and coworkers.
People who don't know tech rely on branding/brand reputation and word of mouth reputation to decide if they are intetested in even trying out a product to begin with.
Which of these is unlike the others?
1) Signal
2) Telegram
3) Element
4) Whatsapp
Hint: The theme is messaging and communication.
- teekert 6y agoTbh, I don't see any problems with the name? I like it.
- bartread 6y agoTry googling "element", and then try googling "whatsapp". See the difference? I get frustrated when brands, products, and even more so OSS software projects, choose names that have too many other meanings/brands associated with them because it can make it unnecessarily difficult to find relevant information using current search engine technology[0]. I've had situations where I've been clicking through pages and pages of results to find something relevant to what I'm looking for, even with more qualified searches. You can critique WhatsApp for any number of reasons, if you're so inclined, but it's hard to argue that they didn't pick a good name. It's eminently searchable and doesn't spam results pages for unrelated/tangentially related topics. [0] I find names like "Signal" irritating for the opposite reason. You're searching for information about the other meanings and yet much of what you get is brand "spam" results related to the messaging system. Great if that's what you're searching for, not if it isn't.
- IshKebab 6y ago> See the difference? Well obviously it doesn't come up because they only just changed the name! In general Google is pretty good at returning the correct result for ambiguous searches. E.g. try searching for "Signal". Every result is about the signal app for me.
- bartread 6y ago> Every result is about the signal app for me. Yeeeees. See my comment at the bottom of my original post. That's great if you're searching for the signal app, but rather annoying if you're not.
- squarefoot 6y agoGoogle is generally good at returning correct results because they analyzed all users habits and can infer what one is looking for; it's up to the user to choose if it's worth the price to pay wrt privacy. As for Signal, it's pretty normal for search engines, whether they spy on users or not, to return the app, since in their algorithms an explicit name (Signal) always wins over a generic name (a signal), which imo is how a search engine should work. In due time, most searches for Element will eventually return the chat app. I'm not sure I will like the name by then though.
- Macha 6y agoBut the difference between Signal returning results for the messaging client and Element not returning results is just one of popularity and the fact that Element as a name is brand new. When signal was a nerdy thing used by few people it was not coming up highly in results either. Arguably Riot has more users than Signal did when it was called TextSecure, so Element is better placed to pick up as a name than Signal was. Obviously Whatsapp had the advantage that its only competition in search results were typos and people mispelling whats up for comedic effect.
- untog 6y agoTry Googling Windows, Android, React, Java, Python, Ruby, Assembly, C(!)... it seems like things have worked out OK for all of them. IMO worries like this are overblown.
- badrabbit 6y agoMay I ask if you are a native english user and what country? Perhaps the branding works for EU markets? Element has nothing to do with messaging. In my example,signal has something to do with communication(signaling),telegram is obvious, whatsapp is what you say when you talk to someone like 'hello'(what is up?). Element sounds like something I hear about in a chemistry class. It also has to be catchy. At least Riot was catchy even if it made no sense. A brand name is not a mission stateme t, it's marketing material, full stop.
- TomMarius 6y agoMost EU languages have the word element too, with the chemistry/physics meaning.
- jelv 6y agoYou can also use https://dittochat.org https://dittochat.org or https://fluffychat.im https://fluffychat.im
- gregoriol 6y agoDoes "whatsapp" sound like messaging? or "Skype"? or "Slack"? or "IRC"?
- neutronicus 6y agoWhatsApp sounds like "what's up" - it definitely suggests conversation The other two are meaningless, but at least monosyllabic - "I'll Skype you," "I'll Slack you," "I'll ... Element you?"
- Multicomp 6y agoI plan to use a phrase like 'lets connect on Element'. Element is a much better name than Riot. Lot less of a hard sell to convert normies.
- neutronicus 6y ago
- unixhero 6y agoI like it. +1 Riot has a political connotation. It's good not to have to try and sell to other people that you're on "riot".
- tomp 6y agoIf I randomly see the URL "element.io" I'd think it's like a Bootstrap alternative or something.
- rglullis 6y agoHey, you again! I wanted to reach you after the discussion about how you were willing to pay a premium for a service if using crypto was an option. Now, giving that you also have issues with the name, May I interest you in Matrix/XMPP hosting provider that you can pay with crypto and invite your friends, called communick? https://communick.com https://communick.com
- badrabbit 6y agoHey, I remember seeing your reply, I didn't want to provide contact info on a public forum, and I have developed a severe allergy to email. I am very intetested in paying for the product you linked, so long as I don't need email. I will support your product, even with imperfections so long as you remain attentive to your user's needs (hopefully being a paid product helps in that area) And for anyone else reading, I became an instant fan of matrix/riot/element because the only thing I needed to sign up to the matrix.org home server was username,password and pass a captcha! No email! Same with HN(minus captcha). If this wasn't but a petty annoyance compared to all the real problems of the world, I would be protesting and holding flag burnings with RFC2822 on the flag! (We all have pet peeves :) )
- LunaSea 6y agoIn places like the European Union, it is illegal for example to provide subscription payments without notifying customers before payment renewal (which requires an email address).
- rglullis 6y agoGiven that is a very complicated ordeal to do subscription payments with crypto (impossible with Bitcoin, requires transaction with custom contracts if you want to do with Ethereum), my initial implementation uses a basic pay-as-you-go account system. If you "subscribe" to my service, you need to ensure that you keep the balance positive otherwise your account gets disconnected on a failed charge.
- 6y ago
- rplnt 6y agoSignal and Telegram are more obvious, yes, but it's not like unrelated or unique names couldn't work. Slack comes to mind. Or, I seek you?
- badrabbit 6y agoICQ has a quirky meaning to it,once you get it,it's like what you use when you seek someone (not really but the mental association is there). Slack? Not sure, it's popular in tech but I've only used it when I have no other choice but I associated it with slacking off (as in when you want to talk informally relax and talk non-work) or having slack (break or headroom),so when someone says let's chat on Slack, I think of a fun interaction that is more akin to taking a break. But to your point, the only good thing about Skype for example is few syllables and messaging related graphics/logo for me.
- rvnx 6y agoSlack is an absolutely horrible name, especially for work-related purposes; it doesn't reflect messaging but laziness and productivity waste.
- simias 6y agoI actually don't like "Signal" either, because it's such a common word that it makes it hard to search for it online. "Telegram" is marginally better, since original telegrams are not very relevant today. But yeah Element is arguably even worse, it's a super common noun and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with communication. But in the end these naming discussions are always going to end up as bikeshedding. If the tech is good it'll probably manage to be successful despite its mediocre name.
- partyboat1586 6y agoThis name is not mediocre, it's sub par. It's not searchable, memorable on its own or memorable in relation to what it's for. You need at least one of those.
- feteru 6y agoIn the post they described searchability as one of the strenghts, as the top hits were dictionary link. They also said they're currently #4 for Riot, proving the viability of "dictionary names." As far as memorability, the whole Element in Matrix network is a little corny/convoluted to me, but oh well.
- mycall 6y agoWait until they start adding to it. Element Prime Element Whisper
- rocha 6y agoIt is not great, but it is also not a disaster. See Go, React, Rust, Processing, Atom, Windows, etc...
- ethelward 6y agoI agree that these names are kind of meh, but they stand for things that will mostly be chosen on their technical merit, and that you don't have to sell to your friends/mom/gf/brother/etc; so it does not really matter.
- Arathorn 6y agoI think "let's chat on Element" has an awesome ring to it, personally :D
- Multicomp 6y agoNot to ape your message but this, exactly. Element is much better than riot. Now if only I could find it in fdroid or GP. Joke: I think I'm starting to see the hacker news version of the gell-mann amnesia effect, when you read something you have no opinion of, the hacker news people sound so smart, but when you read something, form your own opinion first, and then arrive at the HN comments to see everyone melting down, you wonder "where did all the smart people go?" 5 minutes later, you are back to being part of the concern mob. :)
- twelvechairs 6y ago"I know I have Adobe Elements installed somewhere but I never knew it was a chat app"
- dade_ 6y ago"Hey bro, let's chat on (the) Matrix." Use your favourite client. People need to be able to find the Element app with a search of Matrix. So the Element Matrix client should work nicely. Working with a company that used Element as part of it's brand name, it was remembered, but no one ever said the Element part. I've seen first hand that people aren't crazy about installing an app on their phone called Riot. Hopefully the new name works.
- DavidVoid 6y agoSomehow I hadn't made the connection that WhatsApp sounds like "What's up" until now.
- neogodless 6y agoI've worked for or had Element as a client a couple different times in my career. Each time, it was a different company. The name is rather elementary.
- paulie_a 6y agoDozens of users will be effected by this
- Arathorn 6y agomeanwhile, elsewhere on HN... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23842137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23842137
- Markoff 6y agoelement and whatsapp have clearly nothing to do with communication, element must be some chemistry app and whatsapp some social network I guess
- patmorgan23 6y agoWhatsapp sounds lile what's up
- Al-Khwarizmi 6y agoWhatsapp can be an extremely confusing name for non-native English speakers. I'm from Spain and I think 90% of the time I see it written in Spain, it's written wrong (wassap, whasapp, wuatsapp, whatsap, watsap, wuassap, wuassapp, whatsup, watsup, etc.). Sometimes a phonetically "transliterated" version is used instead, like "guasap", which I find more tolerable because at least then it becomes a genuine Spanish word, rather than a botched attempt at writing an English word. Also, many people don't get the meaning/pun in the name at all (which probably is one of the reasons for writing it wrong). Even to me, with a good English level, it wasn't immediate because "what's up" is a very idiomatic greeting and not one that non-natives (or at least, Spanish people) tend to use in a natural way. It took some time to click in my mind. That said, Whatsapp absolutely dominates chat apps in Spain... so I guess these issues are not that important after all. Or at least, not if you are at the right place at the right time.
- christopoulos 6y agoThis is so true. I remember this when I had a conversation with a Spanish developer and he said Java mid-sentence...
- myicgygc843467 6y ago“haba”?
- torstenvl 6y agoTangential, but I would recommend considering "What's up?" to be the standard informal/low-register idiomatic greeting in American English. It's like "Ce faci?" in Romanian - indeed you'll sometimes get even native English speakers responding with "Good, and you?"
- umanwizard 6y agoI second this, as an American. “What’s up”, “hey”, or “yo” (or some combination of the above like “yo, what’s up?”) are all extremely ubiquitous and way more common than more standard greetings like “hi” or “hello”, I in my experience.
- bovermyer 6y agoYou're allowed to dislike the name. I like the new name. If you're pissed about Element, you must be absolutely livid about Apple.
- rvz 6y ago> If you're pissed about Element, you must be absolutely livid about Apple. Nope. 'Apple Computer Inc.' already marketed themselves specifically first in 'computers' and that association was built over the years. After they had success in products that weren't attached to only 'desktop/laptop computers' it made sense to remove 'Computer' from the name. The same was done for Tesla Motors Inc. to Tesla Inc. This is more like a full blown renaming of Riot, New Vector, Modular -> Element. You need to rebuild that SEO and previous associations from scratch again.
- bovermyer 6y agoSorry, you missed the point of my comment. I was addressing the original commenter's dislike of the specific name Element because of its generic nature.
- CydeWeys 6y agoAnd you're missing the point that "Apple" is a decades-old brand that everyone knows. It doesn't need to be explained to anyone now. Element is a new chat app that people won't have heard of and thus does need to be explained, and the "Element" name isn't helping in that regard because it's extremely generic and has nothing to do with messaging. Even worse, it has bad name collision problems; I just Googled "element app" and all the results are other apps named Element, including one hosted at elementapp.com (which will seem like a more legitimate domain name to many casual users than element.io).
- bovermyer 6y agoI was talking about when Apple originally came about, not Apple today.
- eddytrex_ 6y agoSecrets could have been a good ( and hilarious) name... 'let's chat in Secrets'
- snarfy 6y agoIt fails the two syllable rule. All the best companies/bands/groups have two syllable names. If by chance a company succeeds without the two syllable name, a two syllable pseudonym will materialize.
- derwiki 6y agoAm a zon? Mic ro soft?
- Majestic121 6y agoMicrosoft Amazon Facebook Instagram ?
- CameronNemo 6y agoFacebook is two syllables.
- supportlocal4h 6y agoLike Toyota
- worble 6y ago>a two syllable pseudonym will materialize Hmm, which sounds better? "Let's chat on the 'ment" "Let's chat on Ele" I'm trying to guess which will get used. I'm thinking the second one. Or maybe just drop the 'e' and say "Let's talk on el'ment"? That might confuse some Europeans though, maybe just "e'ment" is better.
- programmarchy 6y agoEle sounds pretty good to me, pronounced like Elly.
- TuringTest 6y ago"I'll meet you in the Matrix". How cooler than that can it be? I wouldn't be surprised if matrix-based apps get popular at first by using the protocol name, and only them using the app name as a differentiator. "My niece installed me this app for chatting in the Matrix, what was it called? Ah yes, Element Matrix."
- wodenokoto 6y agoI feel like you want us to answer the name of the most popular of the four messaging apps in the list, but telegram is the one named after a way of communicating. So what is your point?
- api 6y agoAgreed. This is an absolutely horrible name that I'm sure was chosen by poll or committee. What was wrong with Riot anyway? It wasn't the best name but it was known. Most name changes are mistakes.
- cptroot 6y agoBecause Riot means Riot Games to a substantial portion of the internet.
- dyingkneepad 6y agoEvery time I see news about Riot I immediately think about Riot Games and League of Legends. I guess most people who don't know Element will assume Riot in the context of a messaging app is some client they have done to work alongside LoL. Riot Games is too big for anything else computer-related to manage to succeed, especially if males between 15 and 35 years are a significant part of their target customer base.
- mywittyname 6y agoI don't even play LoL and I still think of Riot = Riot Games. I'm willing to bet that was also a factor in their name change. In fact, a quick Google search for Riot brings up Riot games as the first result and the wikipedia entry for them appears on the side bar. So I'm guessing this was the case for the vast majority of Americans.
- tyrust 6y agoFrom the article: >This name change has been a long time in the making. As we explained when we announced the rebrand a few weeks ago, we’ve had major issues with a certain gigantic games company which has blocked us from being able to trademark Riot or even Riot.im - a huge issue when it comes to defending users against abusive forks of the app.
- fomine3 6y agoI thought that they renamed due to BLM movement or something until read the sentence.
- Allower 6y agoWhatsApp is the stupidest name of the bunch, your argument is weak.
- surround 6y agoOn the other hand, “Do you have Element?” is less confusing than “Do you have Signal?”
- glglwty 6y agoReminder: you can fork and rename the software into whatever you want
- tssva 6y agoDoes any statement starting with "Hey bro" have a ring to it?
- efreak 6y agoHow does the name WhatsApp convey a theme of messaging and communication? Signal and Telegram are obvious. It's worth noting that other services have equally nonsensical names. Skype, Slack. Others, like Line, have only a vague connection that take thinking about to see. See the list of services mentioned in Wikipedia's IM template; only half of them mention chat, talk, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Instant_messaging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Instant_messaging I should note that I'm not saying I agree it's a good name (I don't have an opinion on that, personally), just that it's not unusual.
- loco5niner 6y agoAs someone who uses none of the above, "Hey bro, let's chat on Element" and "Hey bro, let's chat on Riot" have the same ring.