12 ms·

TikTok to pull out of Hong Kong

223 points by longdefeat 6y ago

fermienrico 6y ago
The US is also considering: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-china-pompeo/pompeo-says-u-s-looking-at-banning-chinese-social-media-apps-including-tiktok-fox-idUSKBN2480DF https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-china-pompeo/p...
- deleted 6y ago
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- hkmaxpro 6y ago
  And Australia too https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-australian-government-to-ban-tik-tok-app--c-1146435 https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-aus...
- gandutraveler 6y ago
  Highly possible that TikToks move to pull out of HK was related to countries banning the app. India and now US, Australia.
strogonoff 6y ago
> Observers have said the new law forces companies doing business in Hong Kong to provide user data to the Chinese government as well as to comply with censorship requests. This is striking, I have not heard of this interpretation of the new law before. If that’s actually true, any global company (Facebook, Google, Apple, etc.) that remains operating in HK can be assumed to be sharing private communication data/metadata with CCP, regardless of what its privacy policy says.
- gundmc 6y ago
  "Google, Facebook and Twitter Suspend Review of Hong Kong Requests for User Data" https://www.wsj.com/articles/whatsapp-to-suspend-processing-law-enforcement-requests-for-user-data-in-hong-kong-11594034580 https://www.wsj.com/articles/whatsapp-to-suspend-processing-...
  - takeda 6y ago
    it's behind a paywall
    - raghavgoyal14 6y ago
      http://archive.today/uyUl0 http://archive.today/uyUl0
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hker 6y ago
  Relevant reporting: Hong Kong security law: Police handed power to do warrantless searches, freeze assets, intercept comms, control internet https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/06/breaking-hong-kong-security-law-police-handed-power-to-do-warrantless-searches-freeze-assets-intercept-comms-control-internet/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/06/breaking-hong-kong-securit... Note that more details are just being released (and hence newer interpretation of the law, or at least part of it): “On Monday night, the government gazetted the details of Article 43 of the controverisal legislation”.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    Grim. Is infrastructure capable of enforcing internet restrictions to any useful degree already in place?
    - dmix 6y ago
      China will probably keep it mostly kosher on the surface level. But no doubt will be wide open in the background for surveillance. Assuming it wasn't already mostly accessible to them. I'd be surprised if anything like the firewall happens. More likely to be quiet intimidation or disappearances of people posting stuff online.
      - xwolfi 6y ago
        Don't forget, however, that for the exact same excuse, the NSA approached american companies who complied with voluntary backdoors for years, until someone betrayed and exiled to Russia. Not saying both are right, just that this is done from New Zealand to Finland, and it's not very easy to understand why we in Hong Kong are suddenly oppressed by that.
        patagurbon 6y ago
        Because the possibility that you are disappeared for your online activities is likely much much higher in HK now than it has ever been in those other countries.
- actuator 6y ago
  GCP and AWS both have regions in Hong Kong. If anyone was storing data for serving it to any place outside, I guess this might be a good time to shift it to some neighbouring region. Additionally many western companies have their offices in Hong Kong. Does this mean any privileged access that these offices/employees had with data is also now susceptible.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    The National Security Law is extraterritorial. Hosting outside of Hong Kong means nothing. https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592
    - actuator 6y ago
      Companies still serving to HK might be screwed anyway. I was saying that wrt companies who had infra in HK which was serving traffic outside HK. It might make sense to not keep that in HK anymore.
    - toast0 6y ago
      Hosting outside of Hong Kong is important. Hong Kong can't impound the servers if they're outside the territory, without the cooperation of the server owner/operator or the government where it resides. Of course, if the owner/operator has employees or assets in Hong Kong, those could be held to elicit cooperation.
      - hkmaxpro 6y ago
        It matters a bit, but not that much. Failure to comply comes with a maximum fine of HK$100,000 (US$ 12,500), plus six months imprisonment for service providers. [0] If HK police repeatedly fine a company, the company may have to stop serving HK or even China. [0] https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.h...
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  Apple operates its services inside the great firewall, where the CCP has complete access to its servers. The Hong Kong change is therefore relatively minor for Apple.
  - toxik 6y ago
    _for Chinese users _, is an important distinction.
    - politelemon 6y ago
      Chinese users are no less users than other users, and speaks volumes about the companies cooperating with the CCP.
      - toxik 6y ago
        So... punish the Chinese people for having an oppressive government by not providing them with the top of the line? It seems more unjust to me. There is no good choice here, only bad and worse — I think Apples presence in China is the lesser of two evils. Same with Google etc.
    - ipsum2 6y ago
      I don't know if this distinction is that important. If someone from the US imessages or emails someone holding an Apple account in China, then their data will also be revealed.
      - toxik 6y ago
        That’s not true — my iCloud data is not transferred to China because I email a Chinese iCloud user. That message will be revealed, but that is very different from “their data will also be revealed.”
    - fiblye 6y ago
      My worry is that the definition of "Chinese users" will be expanded. Right now the assumption is that it's for Chinese citizens, but of course, anyone who registered an account while in China is also thrown in that pile. I have to wonder if this will someday include Chinese citizens who've been living abroad and created accounts while outside of China, people with former Chinese citizenship who've taken another country's citizenship, their children, and so on. Wechat's surveillance is pushing the idea of what should be monitored by China. It's a real possibility that this will expand into foreign companies with operations in China.
- pankajdoharey 6y ago
  It could be true, because that's just the nature of an autocratic state. Former Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany also suspected their citizens conspiring against them. Which is why they need to tap phones and surveil internet.
- DeonPenny 6y ago
  Actually the law force any company in the world to comply with it regardless of whether or not its in HK or not. So if you say something in the US critical of china then go to HK you'd still be in trouble
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    So I’m assuming everybody who was defending the GDPR nonsense about the law applying to every company worldwide is rethinking that now?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dogcatbatrat 6y ago
      That would require the EU to be introspective so it'll never happen, it was probably intentional anyway. The Europeans know they're losing relevance by the day, if they can legislate away their impotence they can pretend the world doesn't just view them as a senile piggyback to trade with.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  could that law conflict with GDPR under any circumstance? If they can ask for user data about someone in the EU, I guess yes.
- deleted 6y ago
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  - deleted 6y ago
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- bmcn2020 6y ago
  Since HK now = China, I'd imagine that the security laws will be similar; ie, all your data now belongs to us (CCP)
  - dathinab 6y ago
    Some of the new HK laws are worse then the counterpart in China. (Through practically in long term it might not matter that much as law enforcement/interpretation are another matter altogether).
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  also if they stopped[1] sharing it indicates that they did so until now (including during the protests): > And another one. Twitter just confirmed that it stopped all data and info requests from Hong Kong authorities as soon as Hong Kong’s national security law went into effect. That leaves Apple and Google... What were they handing over last year when many protesters were relying on Facebook products for secure messaging? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/technology/tiktok-google-facebook-twitter-hong-kong.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/technology/tiktok-google-...
  - dathinab 6y ago
    There are valid data sharing requests, like e.g. in a murder investigation or similar. Sure, one problem is weather or not the investigation is just made up to get data for an less lawful investigation.
- sova 6y ago
  Is this not by default true of any company operating in China that has sufficient size to be deemed a state-asset?
reactchain 6y ago
> The company has said that TikTok has not shared data with the Chinese government nor would it, a position that would be difficult — if not impossible — to maintain under the new law. Are we expected to believe that it was pulled because they were uncomfortable sharing data with the CCP? There is approximately zero chance of this. So why did they do it?
- illustriousbear 6y ago
  Does TikTok have much of a userbase in HongKong? Maybe it is a strategy to deprive HongKong protesters of a platform to post content on?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - benliong78 6y ago
    Young children are obsessed about TikTok, even in Hong Kong, and parents are just too happy to let their kids melt in front of a mobile screen all day just to get some rest.
    - woutr_be 6y ago
      I’ve actually never really seen it taking off in HK, most people here are obsessed with Instagram and Facebook. Kids are mainly playing mobile games or watching Youtube.
- benliong78 6y ago
  But then there's also Zero chance that the CCP is telling them to leave Hong Kong. TikTok imho is a spying and influence tool for the CCP anyway. This move feels very very weird.
  - snapetom 6y ago
    With the ban in India and threat of US ban, this move may be a PR move to say to the US Feds, "No, we're not a CCP tool. We've pulled out of the HK market to avoid data sharing with the CCP!" Essentially sacrificing the already low HK market to keep the much bigger Rest of the World market. Of course, no one in tech believes them. We'll see if the public and governments believe them.
0xy 6y ago
Are they pretending they aren't a CCP spying apparatus with this move? Seems like simple marketing smoke-and-mirrors to me. Much like Zoom flailing with "privacy" initiatives while being a nation state spying program.
- benliong78 6y ago
  We in Hong Kong are all assuming that TikTok is CCP-owned at this point.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Any large company that has majority ownership in China or primarily employs software developers based in China is a spying apparatus, whether voluntarily or not. It's not even about intentions. You are subject to the whims of the CCP whether you want to be or not. No company operates from China without such influence. Some are more blatant than others (Huawei is more obviously a spying apparatus than Zoom). I wish you the best of luck and hope you are able to get out of HK if you wish.
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      Why are you downvoted for stating the facts? Chinese citizens and organizations are required by China’s National Intelligence Law to support, assist and cooperate with the state intelligence work. The law also protects any individual and organization that aids it. That’s partly why Huawei is a national security risk. [0] CCP also sent state officials to private companies. Private companies, including foreign entities, have to establish formal party organizations. [1] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-data-to-china-government-if-asked-experts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-da... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-china-party/china-to-send-state-officials-to-100-private-firms-including-alibaba-idUSKBN1W80DO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-china-party/china...
- imafish 6y ago
  I agree. This move is only made to create an illusion that they are not working with the gov-who-must-not-be-named.
chvid 6y ago
First; remember there are two "TikToks": The Chinese version which is mostly in Chinese and operates mostly in China and then the western version which we all know and love. The first one you can be sure operates under Chinese law and shares data with the Chinese authorities. The second; my bet is that ByteDance wants to sell it off probably through an IPO on an American exchange. That is why the have hired an American CEO. And that is why they make announcements similarly to Facebook and Google on Hong Kong. What will happen in Hong Kong? Will all these American social medias be banned because they refuse to follow what is now Hong Kong law? Essentially expanding the great firewall of China to include Hong Kong ... we will see but my guess is probably not.
- ComodoHacker 6y ago
  Hong Kong people are using Telegram excessively for quite some time.
  - goblin89 6y ago
    Given the reputation of Telegram[0][1], I hope its popularity wanes among Hong Kong people whose mindset is not aligned with furthering CCP goals. WhatsApp with its E2E-encrypted-by-default chat built on Signal protocol is the lesser evil among the popular messengers, since (1) you never risk forgetting to turn E2E on, and (2) once chat is E2E (read: always), there is no turning over of its contents to the government. Anecdotally, having lived in Hong Kong for two years, I still don’t have Telegram and am yet to meet a person who is not using WhatsApp. If WhatsApp does get banned, I hope by that time (improved) Signal and (improved and renamed) Riot offer viable alternatives. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-russia-ban-lift-messaging-app-encryption-download-a9573181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-rus... [1] https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-put-irans-journal/ https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-put...
    - CorgiHouse 6y ago
      WhatsApp is owned by Facebook, a company known for dark patterns and lying. Between them and Telegram, I'd be more comfortable to choose the latter.
zadokshi 6y ago
It matters where the servers are hosted. It’s not possible to even host a server in the Chinese region without Chinese government issued identity card. If they had servers in Hong Kong, then they Now fall under Chinese security regulations. (It might be that they had servers in Hong Kong, they are needing to turn them off to avoid their servers falling under the new laws)
aficiomaquinas 6y ago
Interesting turn of events. Amazon AWS recently opened a region (Apr 19) in Hong Kong. I wonder if it'll have any impact for them and that industry in general. Perhaps Hong Kong will be inside the great firewall in the near future, too.
- hkmaxpro 6y ago
  No impact to AWS (but not what you think). The National Security Law is extraterritorial https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    It doesn't work that way. I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming the good name of the Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't enforce it outside their borders, and neither can HK. That said, they can restrict access to externally hosted content for users in Hong Kong, and threaten seizure of assets in HK if the target doesn't comply.
    - cthalupa 6y ago
      > I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming the good name of the Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't enforce it outside their borders, and neither can HK. There's a lot more extradition treaties with HK and the PRC than there are with NK. Any country that China can exert significant pressure on could detain and extradite you if China decides you have broken the HK NSL.
      - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
        A basic principle of extradition is that the action has to be a crime in both countries, which is why nobody extradites Saudis convicted of witchcraft or homosexuality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality
    - 6y ago
hkmaxpro 6y ago
TikTok can just continue with their censorship of Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, Falun Gong [0], Uighur [1], and Hong Kong protests [2]. Even without this law, their moderators already banned contents “endangering national security” or deemed “uglification or distortion of local or other countries’ history” [3]. Business as usual. No need to pull out. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor-but-a-user-who-criticized-china-was-locked-out.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks-beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-audience/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks... [3] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-comes-under-scrutiny-over-extreme-moderation-and-censorsh/574243/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-come...
deleted 6y ago
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baylearn 6y ago
Meanwhile, Global Times (mouthpiece of CCP) just tweeted [1] that Hong Kongers are free to use Douyin, the mainland Chinese version of TikTok. [1] https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1280365054655791104 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12803650546557911...
- ur-whale 6y ago
  >Hong Kongers are free to use Douyin, For some definition of the word "free"
  - felipelemos 6y ago
    As in "allowed to".
- terenceng2010 6y ago
  Some speculates it's just the first wave to ban worldwide social networks like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube.
  - woutr_be 6y ago
    Where is this speculation coming from? Is there a reliable source? Or is it just people on Reddit making wild guesses again?
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Maybe the western countries and services should start shutting down these propaganda mouthpieces in retaliation (Including a certain two letter propaganda "news outlet" from an Eurasian country)
easytiger 6y ago
Side note, in my YouTube feed recommendations I got 3 videos lately that were all very clearly Chinese state propaganda. YT normally doesn't recommend anything outside the limited few topics I have subscriptions for. I shall don't follow anything political or "Asian" at all... the feed is tightly the same few things.
- disgu 6y ago
  > YT normally doesn't recommend anything outside the limited few topics I have subscriptions for. You might not have noticed this in the past, but they rotate through various topics that might be of interest to you and recommend them even if you've never searched for anything like it. They've always done this, there are talks on YouTube from them about it as well.
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  Got an example video? I'm curious.
  - easytiger 6y ago
    I just scrolled through my home feed for miles and they have disappeared. Indeed literally only seeing videos related to gaming, golf and gaming pcs. Nothing else AT ALL. But old videos like the below were in it a few days ago https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0 Oh and this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA
    - baddox 6y ago
      That looks nearly identical in content to a vast number of extremely common human-interest segments in American media.
      - easytiger 6y ago
        They (5 month old uploads) don't show up randomly in my almost entirely monotonous YouTube feed though.
blunderkid 6y ago
Desperate move to keep up the charade of not being a CCP shop. On a slightly separate note, given all the virtue signaling of companies like Apple in the context of BLM, its worth reiterating that any US tech company helping the imperial CCP spy and silence its citizens is unambiguously although quite duplicitously with the dark side. Any doubts the world had that the CCP is peace loving humans just like us, now stand well and truly shattered. They are communists and they are rich. They are more dangerous than the Soviets ever got to be.
amriksohata 6y ago
All a publicity stunt to make it look like they are not under Chinese control when in reality no one in HK trusts the app so they have nothing to lose as very few users there
Copenjin 6y ago
Are we supposed to believe that TikTok cares about the privacy of its users and protects them from any inquiry from the chinese officials, or that is even starting a privacy fight with the CCP?! Laughable, c'mon.
jimbob45 6y ago
I’ll never understand why Twitter killed Vine. It was everything TikTok became but years earlier. Everyone loved it and everyone would immediately start using it again if it came back. My only conclusion is that Twitter was heavily influenced by China so that the Chinese could push their product.
- evbpcapfxy 6y ago
  Was Vine profitable though?
- what_ever 6y ago
  Vine was 6 second long video clips. Comparing Vine to TikTok is somewhat like comparing TikTok to YouTube videos. They are different. Lot of TikTok popularity has come from offering songs/lip syncing functionality (done better by their acquisition of musica.ly). That wouldn't have worked on 6 second Vines.
- deleted 6y ago
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- Theodores 6y ago
  Vine wasn't that long ago - eight years ago we were at the beginning of the hype cycle. Nobody heard of it until Twitter bought it and then it was only people that care for Twitter that knew what Vine was. Only a minority of these people saw the point of Vine and only a minority of them thought to record a 'vine' for novelty value. This minority may have appeared to be 'everyone' for the teenagers of the time. But Twitter was not for the teenage demographic. Think of the most famous user of Twitter - Donald Trump - and how old he is and how skilled he is with technology. Okay, he is an outlier, most Twitter users are younger but not that young. When Vine was getting started the wider web industry were encouraging clients to get a social media presence. Adding Vine videos was never seriously proposed whereas hosting actual video on Youtube, Vimeo or even Instagram was very much part of a social media strategy. The money just was not there for Vine with the silly six second limitation. Those that had made a name for themselves making content were able to move elsewhere and to 'grow up' into longer length video that did bring them income. Vine was a failed product once the novelty wore off and the other social media applications had offered their own ways of hosting files that needed a video CODEC to play. Twitter had the good sense to close it down, moving with the times to have video work just fine in the main Twitter product. There was absolutely nothing to do with China in any of this story. The Chinese Communist Party did not have a fight with Twitter about six second videos so that their all conquering Tik Tok could take over the world. That is an absurd idea. The only conclusion as to why Vine had to go was because it was not profitable.
yurlungur 6y ago
Most likely a futile move. I think ByteDance will learn very soon that when the political will is ample, no amount of technical or legal maneuvering can avoid a state crackdown, in the US or elsewhere.
PlasticTank 6y ago
Judging by some of the posts on HN in recent China related threads it seems we may have the attention of the infamous 50 cent armies.
balola 6y ago
I think ByteDance is in an unresolvable situation, on one hand they absolutely can't afford losing the China market, that means they have to stay Chinese and loyal to the party; but on the other hand, if they don't sever with China completely, a global ban looks inevitable. As for the public opinion in China, the majority thinks this is unfair, coz FB, YT and Twitter "wasn't banned, they themselves pulled out coz they don't want to respect Chinese laws".
yorwba 6y ago
I wonder what that means in practice. Are they going to block HK IPs, take down their app from the local app store, close accounts of HK users or will they simply dissolve whatever business presence they have there and claim that means they're no longer operating there?
honksillet 6y ago
I think there needs to be more reporting in this article about how TikTok is structured. India just banned tiktok because of its links to China and there is a news report today that the US is considering the same. Who owns TikTok and what are its links to the Chinese government?
bovermyer 6y ago
At some point, someone is going to have to do something more direct about China's government. This steady erosion of human rights needs to stop.
- adventured 6y ago
  Only the Chinese people can do that. The erosion of human rights will accelerate. Essentially all dictatorships get worse with time, rather than liberalizing. It becomes ever more difficult to retain that position of absolute power, the people grow increasingly weary of it as inevitably broken promises add up over a long period of time. Their next target now that Hong Kong is done, is obviously the annexation of Taiwan. Xi will make his move on Taiwan this decade certainly. He'll want to bring about a reunion with the mainland during his time in power, to try to ensure a consequential legacy of accomplishment (something he entirely lacks now). China will also continue to solidify its hold on the annexed territory in the South China Sea. I would expect further hostility and conflict with most of its neighbors, as China's territorial and military ambitions expand by the year. After Trump likely loses the election, there will be a big decision as to whether Biden & his new administration will lay down for Beijing (reduce the confrontation) or continue to ramp the challenge to their geopolitical sprawling. If the new administration chooses to continue to challenge China, the way to do that will be to orchestrate an anti-China group with as many US allies as possible that coordinates against every detail of China's global hegemony quest. Right now the coordination is mediocre. The countries standing off against China are too far out on their own and not in a great position of strength vis-a-vis China (Australia for example); the US should immediately come to the aid of any nation that China tries to intimidate. If India and China conflict militarily, the US should immediately offer military gear that would be helpful. If China threatens Australia's economy, the US should offer to assist economically (we run a trade surplus with them, we can do a lot with that to their benefit). Even better would be if the US organizes a group of three dozen or so nations that work together to do that sort of thing on short notice. The China response & containment bloc of nations. The US + EU + Japan + UK + Canada + South Korea + India + Australia + New Zealand = $50+ trillion in economy, more than enough to restrain China as necessary, and that's a group that can easily work together.
  - 6y ago
stevespang 6y ago
TikTok already proven to be a spy app for the CCP gov't. . .
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Since China wants their own internet, what’s stopping the world from cutting all the fiber going into China and just letting them do their own thing? Would it be a net loss for the world? It seems it would add enough pressure to be somewhat useful.
- reeeeee 6y ago
  I would lose my ability to buy cheap chinese products. And the chinese economy would lose the advantage of easy web plaftorms like Aliexpress to export to consumers outside of China.
- ridewinter 6y ago
  Isolating China like NK seems to be the direction we're heading, and not sure that I disagree. The lack of error correction in the ability to replace bad leaders and freedom of speech isn't just a cultural preference: https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/01/31/from-the-archives-the-open-society-and-its-enemies-revisited https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/01/31/fr...
- boring_twenties 6y ago
  Imagine all the saved space in ssh server log files everywhere!
whydoyoucare 6y ago
The pot calling the kettle black?

223 points by longdefeat 6y ago

The US is also considering: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-china-pompeo/pompeo-says-u-s-looking-at-banning-chinese-social-media-apps-including-tiktok-fox-idUSKBN2480DF https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tiktok-china-pompeo/p...

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hkmaxpro 6y ago
And Australia too https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-australian-government-to-ban-tik-tok-app--c-1146435 https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/fresh-calls-for-aus...
gandutraveler 6y ago
Highly possible that TikToks move to pull out of HK was related to countries banning the app. India and now US, Australia.

strogonoff 6y ago

> Observers have said the new law forces companies doing business in Hong Kong to provide user data to the Chinese government as well as to comply with censorship requests. This is striking, I have not heard of this interpretation of the new law before. If that’s actually true, any global company (Facebook, Google, Apple, etc.) that remains operating in HK can be assumed to be sharing private communication data/metadata with CCP, regardless of what its privacy policy says.

gundmc 6y ago
"Google, Facebook and Twitter Suspend Review of Hong Kong Requests for User Data" https://www.wsj.com/articles/whatsapp-to-suspend-processing-law-enforcement-requests-for-user-data-in-hong-kong-11594034580 https://www.wsj.com/articles/whatsapp-to-suspend-processing-...
- takeda 6y ago
  it's behind a paywall
  - raghavgoyal14 6y ago
    http://archive.today/uyUl0 http://archive.today/uyUl0
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hker 6y ago
Relevant reporting: Hong Kong security law: Police handed power to do warrantless searches, freeze assets, intercept comms, control internet https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/06/breaking-hong-kong-security-law-police-handed-power-to-do-warrantless-searches-freeze-assets-intercept-comms-control-internet/ https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/06/breaking-hong-kong-securit... Note that more details are just being released (and hence newer interpretation of the law, or at least part of it): “On Monday night, the government gazetted the details of Article 43 of the controverisal legislation”.
- strogonoff 6y ago
  Grim. Is infrastructure capable of enforcing internet restrictions to any useful degree already in place?
  - dmix 6y ago
    China will probably keep it mostly kosher on the surface level. But no doubt will be wide open in the background for surveillance. Assuming it wasn't already mostly accessible to them. I'd be surprised if anything like the firewall happens. More likely to be quiet intimidation or disappearances of people posting stuff online.
    - xwolfi 6y ago
      Don't forget, however, that for the exact same excuse, the NSA approached american companies who complied with voluntary backdoors for years, until someone betrayed and exiled to Russia. Not saying both are right, just that this is done from New Zealand to Finland, and it's not very easy to understand why we in Hong Kong are suddenly oppressed by that.
      - patagurbon 6y ago
        Because the possibility that you are disappeared for your online activities is likely much much higher in HK now than it has ever been in those other countries.
actuator 6y ago
GCP and AWS both have regions in Hong Kong. If anyone was storing data for serving it to any place outside, I guess this might be a good time to shift it to some neighbouring region. Additionally many western companies have their offices in Hong Kong. Does this mean any privileged access that these offices/employees had with data is also now susceptible.
- deleted 6y ago
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- hkmaxpro 6y ago
  The National Security Law is extraterritorial. Hosting outside of Hong Kong means nothing. https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592
  - actuator 6y ago
    Companies still serving to HK might be screwed anyway. I was saying that wrt companies who had infra in HK which was serving traffic outside HK. It might make sense to not keep that in HK anymore.
  - toast0 6y ago
    Hosting outside of Hong Kong is important. Hong Kong can't impound the servers if they're outside the territory, without the cooperation of the server owner/operator or the government where it resides. Of course, if the owner/operator has employees or assets in Hong Kong, those could be held to elicit cooperation.
    - hkmaxpro 6y ago
      It matters a bit, but not that much. Failure to comply comes with a maximum fine of HK$100,000 (US$ 12,500), plus six months imprisonment for service providers. [0] If HK police repeatedly fine a company, the company may have to stop serving HK or even China. [0] https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1536151-20200706.h...
lern_too_spel 6y ago
Apple operates its services inside the great firewall, where the CCP has complete access to its servers. The Hong Kong change is therefore relatively minor for Apple.
- toxik 6y ago
  _for Chinese users _, is an important distinction.
  - politelemon 6y ago
    Chinese users are no less users than other users, and speaks volumes about the companies cooperating with the CCP.
    - toxik 6y ago
      So... punish the Chinese people for having an oppressive government by not providing them with the top of the line? It seems more unjust to me. There is no good choice here, only bad and worse — I think Apples presence in China is the lesser of two evils. Same with Google etc.
  - ipsum2 6y ago
    I don't know if this distinction is that important. If someone from the US imessages or emails someone holding an Apple account in China, then their data will also be revealed.
    - toxik 6y ago
      That’s not true — my iCloud data is not transferred to China because I email a Chinese iCloud user. That message will be revealed, but that is very different from “their data will also be revealed.”
  - fiblye 6y ago
    My worry is that the definition of "Chinese users" will be expanded. Right now the assumption is that it's for Chinese citizens, but of course, anyone who registered an account while in China is also thrown in that pile. I have to wonder if this will someday include Chinese citizens who've been living abroad and created accounts while outside of China, people with former Chinese citizenship who've taken another country's citizenship, their children, and so on. Wechat's surveillance is pushing the idea of what should be monitored by China. It's a real possibility that this will expand into foreign companies with operations in China.
pankajdoharey 6y ago
It could be true, because that's just the nature of an autocratic state. Former Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany also suspected their citizens conspiring against them. Which is why they need to tap phones and surveil internet.
DeonPenny 6y ago
Actually the law force any company in the world to comply with it regardless of whether or not its in HK or not. So if you say something in the US critical of china then go to HK you'd still be in trouble
- jtbayly 6y ago
  So I’m assuming everybody who was defending the GDPR nonsense about the law applying to every company worldwide is rethinking that now?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogcatbatrat 6y ago
    That would require the EU to be introspective so it'll never happen, it was probably intentional anyway. The Europeans know they're losing relevance by the day, if they can legislate away their impotence they can pretend the world doesn't just view them as a senile piggyback to trade with.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
could that law conflict with GDPR under any circumstance? If they can ask for user data about someone in the EU, I guess yes.
deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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bmcn2020 6y ago
Since HK now = China, I'd imagine that the security laws will be similar; ie, all your data now belongs to us (CCP)
- dathinab 6y ago
  Some of the new HK laws are worse then the counterpart in China. (Through practically in long term it might not matter that much as law enforcement/interpretation are another matter altogether).
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
also if they stopped[1] sharing it indicates that they did so until now (including during the protests): > And another one. Twitter just confirmed that it stopped all data and info requests from Hong Kong authorities as soon as Hong Kong’s national security law went into effect. That leaves Apple and Google... What were they handing over last year when many protesters were relying on Facebook products for secure messaging? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/technology/tiktok-google-facebook-twitter-hong-kong.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/06/technology/tiktok-google-...
- dathinab 6y ago
  There are valid data sharing requests, like e.g. in a murder investigation or similar. Sure, one problem is weather or not the investigation is just made up to get data for an less lawful investigation.
sova 6y ago
Is this not by default true of any company operating in China that has sufficient size to be deemed a state-asset?

reactchain 6y ago

> The company has said that TikTok has not shared data with the Chinese government nor would it, a position that would be difficult — if not impossible — to maintain under the new law. Are we expected to believe that it was pulled because they were uncomfortable sharing data with the CCP? There is approximately zero chance of this. So why did they do it?

illustriousbear 6y ago
Does TikTok have much of a userbase in HongKong? Maybe it is a strategy to deprive HongKong protesters of a platform to post content on?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- benliong78 6y ago
  Young children are obsessed about TikTok, even in Hong Kong, and parents are just too happy to let their kids melt in front of a mobile screen all day just to get some rest.
  - woutr_be 6y ago
    I’ve actually never really seen it taking off in HK, most people here are obsessed with Instagram and Facebook. Kids are mainly playing mobile games or watching Youtube.
benliong78 6y ago
But then there's also Zero chance that the CCP is telling them to leave Hong Kong. TikTok imho is a spying and influence tool for the CCP anyway. This move feels very very weird.
- snapetom 6y ago
  With the ban in India and threat of US ban, this move may be a PR move to say to the US Feds, "No, we're not a CCP tool. We've pulled out of the HK market to avoid data sharing with the CCP!" Essentially sacrificing the already low HK market to keep the much bigger Rest of the World market. Of course, no one in tech believes them. We'll see if the public and governments believe them.

0xy 6y ago

Are they pretending they aren't a CCP spying apparatus with this move? Seems like simple marketing smoke-and-mirrors to me. Much like Zoom flailing with "privacy" initiatives while being a nation state spying program.

benliong78 6y ago
We in Hong Kong are all assuming that TikTok is CCP-owned at this point.
- 0xy 6y ago
  Any large company that has majority ownership in China or primarily employs software developers based in China is a spying apparatus, whether voluntarily or not. It's not even about intentions. You are subject to the whims of the CCP whether you want to be or not. No company operates from China without such influence. Some are more blatant than others (Huawei is more obviously a spying apparatus than Zoom). I wish you the best of luck and hope you are able to get out of HK if you wish.
  - hkmaxpro 6y ago
    Why are you downvoted for stating the facts? Chinese citizens and organizations are required by China’s National Intelligence Law to support, assist and cooperate with the state intelligence work. The law also protects any individual and organization that aids it. That’s partly why Huawei is a national security risk. [0] CCP also sent state officials to private companies. Private companies, including foreign entities, have to establish formal party organizations. [1] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-data-to-china-government-if-asked-experts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/05/huawei-would-have-to-give-da... [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-china-party/china-to-send-state-officials-to-100-private-firms-including-alibaba-idUSKBN1W80DO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-china-party/china...
imafish 6y ago
I agree. This move is only made to create an illusion that they are not working with the gov-who-must-not-be-named.

chvid 6y ago

First; remember there are two "TikToks": The Chinese version which is mostly in Chinese and operates mostly in China and then the western version which we all know and love. The first one you can be sure operates under Chinese law and shares data with the Chinese authorities. The second; my bet is that ByteDance wants to sell it off probably through an IPO on an American exchange. That is why the have hired an American CEO. And that is why they make announcements similarly to Facebook and Google on Hong Kong. What will happen in Hong Kong? Will all these American social medias be banned because they refuse to follow what is now Hong Kong law? Essentially expanding the great firewall of China to include Hong Kong ... we will see but my guess is probably not.

ComodoHacker 6y ago
Hong Kong people are using Telegram excessively for quite some time.
- goblin89 6y ago
  Given the reputation of Telegram[0][1], I hope its popularity wanes among Hong Kong people whose mindset is not aligned with furthering CCP goals. WhatsApp with its E2E-encrypted-by-default chat built on Signal protocol is the lesser evil among the popular messengers, since (1) you never risk forgetting to turn E2E on, and (2) once chat is E2E (read: always), there is no turning over of its contents to the government. Anecdotally, having lived in Hong Kong for two years, I still don’t have Telegram and am yet to meet a person who is not using WhatsApp. If WhatsApp does get banned, I hope by that time (improved) Signal and (improved and renamed) Riot offer viable alternatives. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-russia-ban-lift-messaging-app-encryption-download-a9573181.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/telegram-rus... [1] https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-put-irans-journal/ https://cpj.org/2016/05/why-telegrams-security-flaws-may-put...
  - CorgiHouse 6y ago
    WhatsApp is owned by Facebook, a company known for dark patterns and lying. Between them and Telegram, I'd be more comfortable to choose the latter.

zadokshi 6y ago

It matters where the servers are hosted. It’s not possible to even host a server in the Chinese region without Chinese government issued identity card. If they had servers in Hong Kong, then they Now fall under Chinese security regulations. (It might be that they had servers in Hong Kong, they are needing to turn them off to avoid their servers falling under the new laws)

aficiomaquinas 6y ago

Interesting turn of events. Amazon AWS recently opened a region (Apr 19) in Hong Kong. I wonder if it'll have any impact for them and that industry in general. Perhaps Hong Kong will be inside the great firewall in the near future, too.

hkmaxpro 6y ago
No impact to AWS (but not what you think). The National Security Law is extraterritorial https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592 https://twitter.com/alvinllum/status/1280184488857710592
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  It doesn't work that way. I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming the good name of the Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't enforce it outside their borders, and neither can HK. That said, they can restrict access to externally hosted content for users in Hong Kong, and threaten seizure of assets in HK if the target doesn't comply.
  - cthalupa 6y ago
    > I'm sure North Korea has laws criminalizing defaming the good name of the Supreme Leader anywhere in the world, but they can't enforce it outside their borders, and neither can HK. There's a lot more extradition treaties with HK and the PRC than there are with NK. Any country that China can exert significant pressure on could detain and extradite you if China decides you have broken the HK NSL.
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
      A basic principle of extradition is that the action has to be a crime in both countries, which is why nobody extradites Saudis convicted of witchcraft or homosexuality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_criminality
  - 6y ago

hkmaxpro 6y ago

TikTok can just continue with their censorship of Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, Falun Gong [0], Uighur [1], and Hong Kong protests [2]. Even without this law, their moderators already banned contents “endangering national security” or deemed “uglification or distortion of local or other countries’ history” [3]. Business as usual. No need to pull out. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-how-tiktok-censors-videos-that-do-not-please-beijing https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/25/revealed-... [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor-but-a-user-who-criticized-china-was-locked-out.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/tiktok-says-it-doesnt-censor... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks-beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-audience/?noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/15/tiktoks... [3] https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-comes-under-scrutiny-over-extreme-moderation-and-censorsh/574243/ https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/tiktok-once-again-come...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

baylearn 6y ago

Meanwhile, Global Times (mouthpiece of CCP) just tweeted [1] that Hong Kongers are free to use Douyin, the mainland Chinese version of TikTok. [1] https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1280365054655791104 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12803650546557911...

ur-whale 6y ago
>Hong Kongers are free to use Douyin, For some definition of the word "free"
- felipelemos 6y ago
  As in "allowed to".
terenceng2010 6y ago
Some speculates it's just the first wave to ban worldwide social networks like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube.
- woutr_be 6y ago
  Where is this speculation coming from? Is there a reliable source? Or is it just people on Reddit making wild guesses again?
raverbashing 6y ago
Maybe the western countries and services should start shutting down these propaganda mouthpieces in retaliation (Including a certain two letter propaganda "news outlet" from an Eurasian country)

easytiger 6y ago

Side note, in my YouTube feed recommendations I got 3 videos lately that were all very clearly Chinese state propaganda. YT normally doesn't recommend anything outside the limited few topics I have subscriptions for. I shall don't follow anything political or "Asian" at all... the feed is tightly the same few things.

disgu 6y ago
> YT normally doesn't recommend anything outside the limited few topics I have subscriptions for. You might not have noticed this in the past, but they rotate through various topics that might be of interest to you and recommend them even if you've never searched for anything like it. They've always done this, there are talks on YouTube from them about it as well.
libraryatnight 6y ago
Got an example video? I'm curious.
- easytiger 6y ago
  I just scrolled through my home feed for miles and they have disappeared. Indeed literally only seeing videos related to gaming, golf and gaming pcs. Nothing else AT ALL. But old videos like the below were in it a few days ago https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V14W8A73XW0 Oh and this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vpLxGktPoA
  - baddox 6y ago
    That looks nearly identical in content to a vast number of extremely common human-interest segments in American media.
    - easytiger 6y ago
      They (5 month old uploads) don't show up randomly in my almost entirely monotonous YouTube feed though.

blunderkid 6y ago

Desperate move to keep up the charade of not being a CCP shop. On a slightly separate note, given all the virtue signaling of companies like Apple in the context of BLM, its worth reiterating that any US tech company helping the imperial CCP spy and silence its citizens is unambiguously although quite duplicitously with the dark side. Any doubts the world had that the CCP is peace loving humans just like us, now stand well and truly shattered. They are communists and they are rich. They are more dangerous than the Soviets ever got to be.

amriksohata 6y ago

All a publicity stunt to make it look like they are not under Chinese control when in reality no one in HK trusts the app so they have nothing to lose as very few users there

Copenjin 6y ago

Are we supposed to believe that TikTok cares about the privacy of its users and protects them from any inquiry from the chinese officials, or that is even starting a privacy fight with the CCP?! Laughable, c'mon.

jimbob45 6y ago

I’ll never understand why Twitter killed Vine. It was everything TikTok became but years earlier. Everyone loved it and everyone would immediately start using it again if it came back. My only conclusion is that Twitter was heavily influenced by China so that the Chinese could push their product.

evbpcapfxy 6y ago
Was Vine profitable though?
what_ever 6y ago
Vine was 6 second long video clips. Comparing Vine to TikTok is somewhat like comparing TikTok to YouTube videos. They are different. Lot of TikTok popularity has come from offering songs/lip syncing functionality (done better by their acquisition of musica.ly). That wouldn't have worked on 6 second Vines.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Theodores 6y ago
Vine wasn't that long ago - eight years ago we were at the beginning of the hype cycle. Nobody heard of it until Twitter bought it and then it was only people that care for Twitter that knew what Vine was. Only a minority of these people saw the point of Vine and only a minority of them thought to record a 'vine' for novelty value. This minority may have appeared to be 'everyone' for the teenagers of the time. But Twitter was not for the teenage demographic. Think of the most famous user of Twitter - Donald Trump - and how old he is and how skilled he is with technology. Okay, he is an outlier, most Twitter users are younger but not that young. When Vine was getting started the wider web industry were encouraging clients to get a social media presence. Adding Vine videos was never seriously proposed whereas hosting actual video on Youtube, Vimeo or even Instagram was very much part of a social media strategy. The money just was not there for Vine with the silly six second limitation. Those that had made a name for themselves making content were able to move elsewhere and to 'grow up' into longer length video that did bring them income. Vine was a failed product once the novelty wore off and the other social media applications had offered their own ways of hosting files that needed a video CODEC to play. Twitter had the good sense to close it down, moving with the times to have video work just fine in the main Twitter product. There was absolutely nothing to do with China in any of this story. The Chinese Communist Party did not have a fight with Twitter about six second videos so that their all conquering Tik Tok could take over the world. That is an absurd idea. The only conclusion as to why Vine had to go was because it was not profitable.

yurlungur 6y ago

Most likely a futile move. I think ByteDance will learn very soon that when the political will is ample, no amount of technical or legal maneuvering can avoid a state crackdown, in the US or elsewhere.

PlasticTank 6y ago

Judging by some of the posts on HN in recent China related threads it seems we may have the attention of the infamous 50 cent armies.

balola 6y ago

I think ByteDance is in an unresolvable situation, on one hand they absolutely can't afford losing the China market, that means they have to stay Chinese and loyal to the party; but on the other hand, if they don't sever with China completely, a global ban looks inevitable. As for the public opinion in China, the majority thinks this is unfair, coz FB, YT and Twitter "wasn't banned, they themselves pulled out coz they don't want to respect Chinese laws".

yorwba 6y ago

I wonder what that means in practice. Are they going to block HK IPs, take down their app from the local app store, close accounts of HK users or will they simply dissolve whatever business presence they have there and claim that means they're no longer operating there?

honksillet 6y ago

I think there needs to be more reporting in this article about how TikTok is structured. India just banned tiktok because of its links to China and there is a news report today that the US is considering the same. Who owns TikTok and what are its links to the Chinese government?

bovermyer 6y ago

At some point, someone is going to have to do something more direct about China's government. This steady erosion of human rights needs to stop.

adventured 6y ago
Only the Chinese people can do that. The erosion of human rights will accelerate. Essentially all dictatorships get worse with time, rather than liberalizing. It becomes ever more difficult to retain that position of absolute power, the people grow increasingly weary of it as inevitably broken promises add up over a long period of time. Their next target now that Hong Kong is done, is obviously the annexation of Taiwan. Xi will make his move on Taiwan this decade certainly. He'll want to bring about a reunion with the mainland during his time in power, to try to ensure a consequential legacy of accomplishment (something he entirely lacks now). China will also continue to solidify its hold on the annexed territory in the South China Sea. I would expect further hostility and conflict with most of its neighbors, as China's territorial and military ambitions expand by the year. After Trump likely loses the election, there will be a big decision as to whether Biden & his new administration will lay down for Beijing (reduce the confrontation) or continue to ramp the challenge to their geopolitical sprawling. If the new administration chooses to continue to challenge China, the way to do that will be to orchestrate an anti-China group with as many US allies as possible that coordinates against every detail of China's global hegemony quest. Right now the coordination is mediocre. The countries standing off against China are too far out on their own and not in a great position of strength vis-a-vis China (Australia for example); the US should immediately come to the aid of any nation that China tries to intimidate. If India and China conflict militarily, the US should immediately offer military gear that would be helpful. If China threatens Australia's economy, the US should offer to assist economically (we run a trade surplus with them, we can do a lot with that to their benefit). Even better would be if the US organizes a group of three dozen or so nations that work together to do that sort of thing on short notice. The China response & containment bloc of nations. The US + EU + Japan + UK + Canada + South Korea + India + Australia + New Zealand = $50+ trillion in economy, more than enough to restrain China as necessary, and that's a group that can easily work together.
- 6y ago

stevespang 6y ago

TikTok already proven to be a spy app for the CCP gov't. . .

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Since China wants their own internet, what’s stopping the world from cutting all the fiber going into China and just letting them do their own thing? Would it be a net loss for the world? It seems it would add enough pressure to be somewhat useful.

reeeeee 6y ago
I would lose my ability to buy cheap chinese products. And the chinese economy would lose the advantage of easy web plaftorms like Aliexpress to export to consumers outside of China.
ridewinter 6y ago
Isolating China like NK seems to be the direction we're heading, and not sure that I disagree. The lack of error correction in the ability to replace bad leaders and freedom of speech isn't just a cultural preference: https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/01/31/from-the-archives-the-open-society-and-its-enemies-revisited https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2016/01/31/fr...
boring_twenties 6y ago
Imagine all the saved space in ssh server log files everywhere!

whydoyoucare 6y ago

The pot calling the kettle black?