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Internet mob justice can easily destroy innocent lives (2019)
- microcolonel 6y agoNow if only people could recognize that physical mob justice can REALLY easily destroy innocent lives...
- Tycho 6y agoJustice system is probably going down the pan anyway. Judges and jurors will be harassed by online mobs.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoHarassment is bad, but judges and jurors already face harassment from offline mobs, including many within living memory who actively wanted to murder them. The system's generally robust against that kind of thing.
- Tycho 6y agoI don’t think it’s necessarily robust against the increased visibility and coordination that social media brings.
- corty 6y agoThe internet mob doesn't need any help from the justice system beyond maybe a little swatting. The rest just works by threatening friends, family, employer and the rest of a victims social circle. That usually suffices to destroy a person's life thoroughly.
- LordFast 6y agoThere's no need to go to war with a country if you can plant the seeds of a toxic mindset, and then watch them tear themselves apart instead.
- vbezhenar 6y agoThat's how US destroyed USSR.
- ed25519FUUU 6y agoCan you help me understand how USSR collapses because of “toxic mindset”?
- corty 6y agoOne might interpret the yearning for prosperity, personal freedom and generally capitalist values as a toxic mindset. That then leads to unrest in the population, bringing down the government. But while all that might have been a factor in the downfall of the USSR, I think other factors have been far more important.
- vbezhenar 6y agoWestern propaganda infected minds of USSR citizens with western values. They thought that capitalism would fix their problems, they thought that Coca Cola and Mac Donalds are better than their national drinks and foods, they thought that jeans are superior to their pants. Also I think that US intelligence service funded national revolts in some republics which further undermined an Union and eventually led to its collapse and people were OK with that, because they thought that better future awaits. It was all lies. US bought Gorbachev as well, though that's a different matter, I guess.
- Voyiatzis 6y agoOr, vice versa.
- nordsieck 6y ago> That's how US destroyed USSR. Your arrow of causation is pointing in the wrong direction. At the time, intellectuals in the US believed (and many still believe) that Communism(or whatever you call the economic system that was practiced in the USSR) is the superior economic system. The USSR rotted from within due to fundamental economic problems like the principal agent problem[1] and the economic calculation problem[2]. The US didn't really have much to do with it, with the possible exception of "forcing" the USSR to spend a lot of resources it didn't have on weapons and space flight. ___ 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem
- nordsieck 6y agoIf people want to understand this phenomenon better, there is no better reference I could recommend than Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence[1] - specifically what he calls the "group monkey dance"[2]. The simplified explanation is this: the target of the attack by the group is no longer a person, but merely a target. Group members demonstrate their loyalty to the group by gradually escalating the violence they do to the target. ___ 1. http://amazon.com/dp/1594391181 http://amazon.com/dp/1594391181 2. https://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics https://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics
- malexw 6y agoI would say that Jon Ronson's book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" (mentioned in the article), is also excellent. I would especially recommend it for anyone building social media tech.
- EamonnMR 6y agoSee also: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/the-internet-of-beefs/
- diffrinse 6y agoThis is usually how gang initiations are executed.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 6y ago> With great power comes great responsibility. Words to live by while online. Most fail.
- bezmenov 6y ago> In general, the victim of a struggle session was forced to admit various crimes before a crowd of people who would verbally and physically abuse the victim until he or she confessed. Struggle sessions were often held at the workplace of the accused, but they were sometimes conducted in sports stadiums where large crowds would gather if the target was well-known. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session
- cryptonector 6y agoI like your username. Of course it must be an allusion to Yuri Bezmenov.
- frereubu 6y agoI think the dismissal here of the Jon Ronson piece is unwarranted, and if anyone here hasn't heard about it I'd definitely read that in preference to this post. I find it much more interesting when there are grey areas and nuance in the story rather than completely innocent people being blindsided. (And after hearing her story in full I'd argue that there the woman who told the stupid joke is effectively innocent too, if rather naive). There's a series of BBC podcasts with abridged versions of the stories in his book here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07hj31g https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07hj31g
- WalterBright 6y agoIt can destroy guilty lives, too. I.e. the punishment can far outweigh the crime.
- kergonath 6y agoIt’s the opposite of justice.
- AnthonyMouse 6y agoIt reminds one of the story of the Dazexiang uprising. There were army units ordered to report to another location. On the way there they were delayed by flooding. The penalty for being late was death. This was no different than the penalty for insurrection, so guess what they did then. Proportionality is important.
- dredmorbius 6y agoLeaving someone nothing to lose is dangerous.
- umvi 6y agoTechnically, any justice administered by a mob is targetting innocents. At least, it used to be that things like fair trials were a requirement to establish guilt. Now is just seems like internet bullies can just bypass democratic processes and do anything they want to shout down, browbeat, hound, or destroy the people/companies they don't like. And they can get away with it as long as it has a thin veneer of the current moral issue...
- dx87 6y agoPretty much. I've started seeing a lot of people saying "innocent until proven guilty only applies to courts" as an excuse for mob justice. It's mostly the same people who say "freedom of speech only applies to government censorship".
- monocasa 6y agoSo what, people don't get freedom of association unless they file for a court order?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoPeople should absolutely be free to stop associating with others for bad reasons. That doesn't mean we can't encourage people not to, or talk about the badness of the reasons.
- monocasa 6y agoBut there's tons of reasons why someone might find their behavior abhorrent that don't and shouldn't pass the bar for illegality, and want to inform their employer that the employee's behavior reflects negatively enough on the employer that they would stop doing business with them. There's all sorts of acts that are never going to be proven guilty, because they're not illegal in the first place. Generally because making it illegal would conflict with the first amendment.
- 6y ago
- dahfizz 6y agoI think the only solution here is strict enforcement of anti harrassment laws. Sending threats, harrassing someone's employer, doxxing someone, etc, should result in a permanent ban on the relevant platform and possibly jail time.
- pjc50 6y agoThis should also apply if the press and media do it, which they do routinely.
- dahfizz 6y agoI'd be completely happy with that.
- monocasa 6y agoWhy is informing someone's employer that their behavior is so abhorrent it makes you not want to associate with the employer anymore so bad as to be a bannable offence?
- oh_sigh 6y agoOP says "harassing someones employer". Presumably that's more than writing a message on a feedback form.
- monocasa 6y agoWhy should you limit yourself to a feedback form?
- axaxs 6y agoBecause this is rarely, if ever, the case. Going after employers has the single goal of getting someone fired. It's mob punishment, and nothing more. It sets a scary precedent when free speech is restricted for this reason. 'Think like us, or be unemployed' is the current state of the US. Sad.
- 6y ago
- jeffbee 6y agoInternet mob unleashed by Oklahoma police officer breaks into home, rapes wrong woman. https://kfor-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/kfor.com/news/norman-pd-investigates-after-city-councilwoman-claims-neighbors-rapist-had-wrong-woman-meant-to-rape-her/amp/?usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D&_js_v=0.1#aoh=15937252362199&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fkfor.com%2Fnews%2Fnorman-pd-investigates-after-city-councilwoman-claims-neighbors-rapist-had-wrong-woman-meant-to-rape-her%2F https://kfor-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/kfor.com/news/norman...
- 908087 6y agoIs there such a thing as raping the right woman?
- jeffbee 6y agoDoubtful. Point is they can dox the wrong person, they can dox the right person and then still assault someone else.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- laughinghan 6y agoThat article doesn't actually report an allegation that the incident was "unleashed by Oklahoma police officer", but this one does: https://www.news9.com/story/5efe6166c993e811aef887a0/norman-police-investigate-2-officers-accused-of-sharing-city-councilwomans-personal-information https://www.news9.com/story/5efe6166c993e811aef887a0/norman-...
- pjc50 6y agoAnother one for the "police out of control intimidating dissidents" file.
- maxheadrum 6y agoThis is very strange logic. You would think someone who is capable of rape would want less police so they would get away with it. Sounds like this guy just made up an excuse to rape someone. You don't just wake up one day and decide that rape is an option.
- lettergram 6y agoI wrote about this here: https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/ Social media is effectively amplifying the smallest segment of society. An extreme left and extreme right, neither of whom really represent the vast majority of people. Worse, I don’t think companies or representatives realize how few even a few thousand retweets really are... Further exasperating the issue is the fact we deplatform people with opposing opinions. Now Reddit is even removing people who upvote stories or comments differ from their ideology. It’s getting real scary. That’s why my post linked above is called “on committing suicide”. It’s a dual meaning, I think the country is murdering itself and I’m also risking my entire career to say so.
- HeWhoLurksLate 6y agoA comment on your blog post sums up quite well my opinion of your piece- >I cannot believe you wrote a web page that reads my mind and converts it into text! This is the most amazing technology I have ever seen. It literally scanned all my chaotic thoughts and emotions over the last couple of months and distilled them into a series of coherent, well written sentences that convey exactly what I wanted to say, but didn’t know how to say it. You are either the most amazing programmer in the world, or an excellent essayist. Either way, thank you. I agree. Thank you for that essay, I'll be sharing it with several of my friends.
- willcipriano 6y ago>Worse, I don’t think companies or representatives realize how few even a few thousand retweets really are... 1k retweets could mean as little as someone spent $30[0], think about that you could ruin someones life for $30 and you don't even have to get out of bed to do it. [0]https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/ https://www.redsocial.net/buy-twitter-retweets/
- Polylactic_acid 6y agoI don't think people realise how manipulated social media is. There are so many marketing services that scan every comment posted on every social media to alert the marketing team when their product is mentioned so they can jump in and start shilling. I used to use one to scan for my FOSS project name so I could answer questions and help people but the scope for abuse here is huge.
- Thorentis 6y agoHumans love mobs. It makes them feel empowered, and gives them greater "authority" than they would otherwise have. We have seen mobs throughout human history cause all sorts of horrible incidents. But the difference between a physical mob and an internet mob, is that in a physical mob you can be identified, you are still risking some of your own safety, and you can usually immediately see the consequences of your own actions. In an internet mob you can remain anonymous, you don't need to actually carry out any of the threats you make (others may do it for you, eg calling for somebody to be fired), and you aren't risk any of your own reputation. I absolutely loath seeing mainstream media write about what happens on twitter/social media. It magnifies the mob far beyond reason. "Twttier in an outrage", "Internet blows up" it's just insane. Not only does it give the impression that vast majority of users on a platform are on the same side (they're not), it gives them pseudo-credibility. And unfortunately, the next step is for corporations to take them seriously. The more I see these stories and see how social media has shaped and is shaping the 21st century, the more I wish it was never created. It was fun at first. But the dark side of humanity has been given a power it should never have had.
- pwdisswordfish2 6y ago"Humans love mobs." I am a human and I don't love mobs. This article is all about incorrect assumptions. If I am not mistaken, the parent comment just made another one. The part about the media amplifying what is on social media I absolutely agree with. I have always thought there is some strange irony in news outlets writing about something that is, at least in the case of newspapers, killing their own business. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/columbus-statue-in-baltimore-torn-down-and-thrown-in-harbor/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/columbus-statue-in-baltimore-to...
- Thorentis 6y agoI made a generalization which I still think is true, regardless of specific exceptions which will always exist for all generalizations. Humans love to feel like they belong and they like to feel validated in their opinions. This doesn't always play out in the form of a mob. Even just "ganging up" on a friend in a group conversation is a result of these traits. Mob mentality shows itself in many ways. Perhaps I should've been clearer about mob mentality vs. the classic "mob". What we see happening on social media is I think a result of the majority of humans being susceptible to some form and some degree of mob mentality (groupthink, if you will).
- njharman 6y agoThat's inherent in the definition of "mob [in]justice". The mob is driven by passion, not justice. At worst, at the instigation of charismatic or influential people with ulterior motive. At best, missguided by fear and other emotions. Never overflowing with rational thought.
- nikanj 6y agoThis happened recently to someone who had the misfortune of riding the wrong bike trail: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52978880 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52978880 He had posted a Strava ride of the trail on the 28th, 29th, and 1st. The incident happened on the 30th. To internet detectives, this clearly meant he committed the crime on the 30th, and then deleted that ride from Strava. It's scary to see how the mob was able to take exonerating evidence (him not riding on the 30th) and spin it to be a smoking gun: An innocent man would not have hidden the ride in question. Nobody even considered the possibility that he wasn't on the trail that day.
- merb 6y agowhy does a mob that tries to defame nazis, do nazi style tactics?!
- monocasa 6y agoWhat are "nazi style tactics"? I don't see these people out killing all their political rivals in a night of long knives.
- rdiddly 6y agoYeah you don't see them rounding people up in camps either. There are other Nazi-style tactics in the ol' Nazi toolbag. For example, taking a complex problem for which nobody is truly able to attribute a simple cause, and saying, But _I_ know why it's happening, I know who's responsible... AND THERE THEY ARE / THERE'S ONE OF 'EM NOW! That's a Nazi tactic.
- monocasa 6y agoThere are absolutely individuals responsible for contributing to societal woes. Deplatforming them is not "a nazi thing", but an everyone thing.
- kmnc 6y agoWhy can’t Twitter and Facebook auto moderate the most basic harassment comments? They have defined terms of service but rely on user reports where the damage is already done. Why am I even able to make such comments? Maybe it is a hard problem but even at a basic level there should be no reason certain phrases are even possible to post.
- Polylactic_acid 6y agoThey do. And every 2 seconds people make an outrage post about how google bots locked them out by mistake or how facebook deleted their post about breast cancer. And if you are just banning certain words then these people invent new words for the old meanings.
- sandworm101 6y agoWhat about all the "mob justice" that the internet has prevented? People have been forming ad hoc possies to dish out street justice for thousands of years. In the past, local authorities controlled all the information. Any civil or religious leader could leverage this control to whip up a local mob and do some real damage. Book burnings, witch trials, lynchings, pogroms... they all involve low-information people being enticed by a higher-information leader with a bone to pick. Sure, some internet-based conspiracies have lead to mob violence (5G, pizzagate etc). But how many crazy theories have been put down now that we can all check basic facts on our phones? Mayan end of the word? An asteroid on its way? Satanic cults murdering children in daycares. Orson Wells would have a much more difficult time convincing people that aliens have landed now that radio isn't the only form of real time information. At lease it is now possible to fact check the radio. While conspiracies are now more national in scope and more easily witnessed thanks to the internet, the net result imho is that fewer people are coming to actual physical harm.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoI think you're observing the pattern backwards. False rumors like the Orson Welles alien thing didn't go away - they're just so common that they're no longer worthy of note. If you made a full-time job of it, I bet you could find a false rumor with >10k tweets about it every day.
- krapp 6y ago>But how many crazy theories have been put down now that we can all check basic facts on our phones? Probably close to none. >Mayan end of the word? Plenty of people believed in that. Hell, one of the conspiracy theories around the Mandela Effect is that 2012 happened and everyone got pushed into the current universe when it did. Oh yeah, and the Mandela Effect itself. The only reason that blew up is because of an internet meme, and the internet's ability to create reality bubbles around people is the only reason it's as big as it is. The internet is the reason millions of people literally believe their false memories are the result of interdimensional leakage. >An asteroid on its way? We never even notice those until it's too late, so the ones we know about get reported on in the news, but speaking of that, plenty of people still think Oumuamua was a spaceship. >Orsen Wells would have a much more difficult time convincing people that aliens have landed now that radio isn't the only form of real time information. Far, far more people believe aliens have landed, now, than did in Wells' time. They believe reptoids wearing human skinsuits control the world. They believe the universe is a computer simulation and that most of the people around them are NPCs. They believe grey fetus-monsters suck people up into spaceships with orange beams and mess with their genitals. They believe the world is flat and all of the airlines secretly know about it, and they project holograms outside of the windows to fool passengers. They believe we never went to the moon, because obviously we'd hit the crystal spheres if we tried. They believe COVID-19 is a globalist population-control experiment, and that Madonna spilled the beans on the plan last year in Illuminati code. You think it's hard to convince people of stupid things nowadays? Calls to poison control centers spiked after the President of the United States suggested (jokingly, allegedly) that injecting disinfectants might be a cure for coronavirus. People heard that and immediately started drinking bleach. >While conspiracies are now more national in scope and more easily witnessed thanks to the internet, the net result imho is that fewer people are coming to actual physical harm. Give it time. That guy who stormed the pizza parlor armed to free the nonexistent child sex slaves in the nonexistent basement comes to mind. True, no one came to physical harm in that case, but that was only by luck. Reddit and /pol/ are inspiring mass shooters. COVID denialists are threatening people in the streets at gunpoint. If anything, conspiracy-inspired violence seems on a slow upward curve.
- mindfulplay 6y agoThese industries are spurned by growth-hacking companies that receive a lot of VC funding to do just that: prove out "user value" which is code for "get as many users as possible". Twitter, Reddit, FB, Instagram all thrive on mediocrity amplified by the loudest voices. And then these investors and founders brag about user engagement, customer acquisition, retention and such meaningless numbers. None of it maps to user value. Because this drives advertisements to their sites. Unless there companies actively reduce this nonsense, things will never change.
- bassman9000 6y agoIn addition to that, they delegated moderation to users, and some platforms even actively sought certain ideas while suppressing others, thus compounding on the mob effect. Twitter is notoriously guilty of this (although not the only one): wrongthink is actively patrolled, and reputations/jobs, (sometimes even worse), are routinely destroyed.
- glial 6y agoOr -- we institute much stronger limits on advertising. We blame tech companies for being complicit, but they are following advertising dollars. Without advertising dollars, the whole thing dries up.
- catalogia 6y ago> He eventually got an apology from the woman, who wrote a retraction post (though the retraction post only got 1/50th of the views of the original post). Social media websites should be able to do better than this. They have a record of everybody who saw the original post; they should be able to ensure everybody who saw the original also sees the retraction. I'm sure they don't care though. Making people feel ashamed for participating in a mob is probably bad for "engagement."
- mholt 6y agoThis happened locally just a few days ago. Protesters were blocking the street at an intersection where a vehicle came to make a legal right turn. Viral cell phone footage showed protestors surrounding the vehicle before the driver sped through the crowd, running over several (but not killing any) individuals. Everyone on social media condemned the driver, a gentleman in his 60's who was just going home after running errands, for plowing through protesters (ironically in a "white Excursion"). Turns out the driver was shot at the intersection -- twice -- and was injured and was trying to escape with his life. When the police released the factual statement, it received almost no social media attention compared to the original (and false) accusations.
- jeffbee 6y agoThat's an interpretation, sure. Watch the video to see if this sequence of events makes sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1EBFcalY3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1EBFcalY3Q My interpretation is driver attacks crowd with giant kampfwagen, someone shoots him, he runs over some people and flees. None of this behavior seems great.
- mythrwy 6y agoThat's not attacking a crowd. Perhaps trying to intimidate a crowd blocking the road and push his way through. After which he was shot. From the side. I seriously can't believe someone would hint at justifying this or imply "everyone did about equally wrong".
- dmurray 6y agoThis is the first I've heard of the incident but it sounds terrible. Even the original post on this matter, which sounds sympathetic to the motorist, says he "sped through the crowd, running over several individuals" - as I understand it, well before any shots were fired. How is that not really bad? Depending on intent that could be way worse than shooting him.
- 6y ago
- 29athrowaway 6y agoEveryone is innocent until proven guilty, but sometimes the evidence is just overwhelming. If you are doing something wrong on camera, and it is very easy to positively identify you and what you are doing, you are very likely to be guilty. However: 1) Mobs are not perfect at positively identifying people. And once an identification mistake happens, it propagates quickly. 2) Mobs jump to conclusions very fast. If you see a bruised person claiming to have been beaten, people take for granted that it happened, and that is the wrong mindset. I am not a MAGA person but a clear example of this was the January 2019 Lincoln Memorial Confrontation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2019_Lincoln_Memorial_confrontation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2019_Lincoln_Memorial_...) where things were taken out of context to a ridiculous extent, and there were mobs on every social network trying to dox the kid that was literally doing nothing.
- david422 6y agoThis is one of the many events that show that you literally cannot trust the media. And another reason that mob justice is not justice.
- curation 6y agoYes. The first 20 years of internet was a mob that kept me from ever commenting and the misogyny I encountered - art videos stolen and shared on boards, attacks on my work - shaped my behavior forever. I do not believe in the concept "innocent lives" - but without placing this discussion about cancel culture in context we just reproduce unequal relationships of power. A better framework would be to do what I had to do to cope - do the inner work.
- neonate 6y agoI'd be interested to hear more about the inner work you had to do, if you'd care to share.
- curation 6y agoSure. It's reading. (happy to send you a reading list if you let me know your own aptitudes and interests as a point of entry ). It's learning that Western culture structures the normal as a white monyed male and any perspective that interrogates that is too 'political.' This space right here _is_ political, even when you disavow it as so. In this space my experience of working in tech as a woman - which shares many perhaps most of what you experience - but then there are the things you cannot imagine. Ask specific questions. When I post an article about a woman's experience on this site, a user flags it right away. ( see my last post here ). The good news is, all of this is becoming more and more normal. Otherwise I would not even bother here, as I have lurked for over a decade getting what I needed here and trying not to be to demoralized by the shape of content and the common fantasy that one can construct choose where, how and when the political intervenes.
- squarefoot 6y agoThat's the reason why we should never ever ever ever give "power to the people", but rather to enlightened few who would do their best to understand common people needs and take decisions accordingly. Giving today power to the people plain and simple means we'll have light poles holding hanged people at every street by next week. There's a wonderful quote by Henry Ford regarding innovation which says "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have replied faster horses". I find it very appropriate in this context too. People would definitely know there's something wrong somewhere, but only knowledgeable ones would find how to act, where to act and how to do that without producing collateral damages.
- pixl97 6y agoHenry Ford, interesting person to quote. Why not expound on his wisdom written in the International Jew? Just a point about how a person that is intelligent about one thing can show profound ignorance about another.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- kilroy_jones 6y agoAnd how does one determine this enlightened few and how do they get out into power? It seems like you're advocating for what would quickly become an aristocracy, People can work together, but an effective system of organization needs to be in place which allows for check and balances. The internet has bypassed many of our former checks and balances, so it's time to rework things.
- dcow 6y agoI don't think it's actually that hard to choose a set of benevolent caretakers willing to understand the needs to the common folk especially if you divide the aristocracy up into a few different branches and put checks and balances on the power the aristocracy has between each branch and preserve a core set of individual liberties upon which the aristocracy shall not tread. But we've seen that fall apart so at this point I'm more interested in a Neo-monarchist experiment myself.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jamesjyu 6y agoI wrote a story about this a while back, where the premise is that a judge is assigned to adjudicate and execute the mob's wishes: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbyy58/river-rising https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mbyy58/river-rising
- lukev 6y agoOk, so the HN consensus is that mob justice is bad. Great, excellent affirmation of a nearly tautological statement. Mob justice can never actually be just, except by accident. What's more interesting to me, and a problem more befitting the intellectual horsepower of folks here, is: what are the sociological causes of this behavior? And what realistic mechanisms or release valves could we put in place so people either didn't feel the need to do this, or when they did, the ways in which we could ensure justice apart and aside from online bandwagoning? This is a broad and complex topic. I don't claim to have any answers. But I think there are some interesting questions: 1. To what extent does this dynamic align with the political spectrum? If it doesn't align with the obvious left/right dynamic, is another way we can identify those who think it's acceptable vs. those who don't, so we can pursue appropriate policies? 2. To what extent is online outrage driven by systemic factors that prevent injustice from being addressed by other means? Arguably, the impetus behind the #metoo or #blacklivesmatter movements is the fact that the status quo systems are inherently weighted in favor of bad actors. The online bandwagon angle would likely not exist if victims felt they had any other meaningful recourse. Indeed, that's the whole point. 3. Free association is also A Thing. Shouldn't we be free to disassociate ourselves from those whose views we find distasteful, and (due to freedom of speech) encourage others to do the same? And how is this different (or the same) than an internet bandwagon? 4. Is there a difference between bandwagon driven by a (misguided or not) desire for justice, and pure spiteful trolling? Undoubtedly, both exist. But can we make a distinction without making a value judgement between various sociopolitical positions? 5. Where does online behavior "cross the line"? Is near-universal criticism and reprobation itself problematic? Or does it only become a problem when it becomes targeted harassment? Or when the harassment begins to extend from the internet to the real world (doxxing) or involve actual crimes (swatting)? What happens when a concerned entity (e.g) an employer take entirely legitimate action (firing a racist employee), but which they would not have otherwise taken? It's not enough to rail against the dynamic. We need to seriously grapple with all the individual factors that go into it. Because (hopefully) the internet and freedom of speech on the internet is here to stay. Reductive approaches only serve you to shove you into one camp or the other. How can we try and figure out how to make this very new informational landscape both sustainable and just?
- mirimir 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- suthakamal 6y agoOne set of anecdotes after another. Easy to understand why PG acolytes might enjoy this piece.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mythrwy 6y agoMedia have also been doing similar for a long time in search of sensationalist stories that drum up outrage. For example, the story a few days ago about the white couple in Lake Orion who pointed guns at a black family. The couple were vilified in the press and implications of racism were made. The couple has been charged and in my opinion (and presumably of the law) they were too quick to pull their (legally carried) guns out, and they will have to answer for this and the man was fired from his job. However watching the full video tells a very different story then the headlines implied. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhdMcrBuDU&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhdMcrBuDU&feature=emb_...
- 0x00000000 6y agoThe husband getting fired is extremely disturbing and the most fucked up thing about the entire situation. There was another one recently where a middle eastern grocery store in the US had their lease pulled because of tweets by the owner’s teenage daughter. Mob justice is bad, but mob justice against people simply for association is terrifying. Ask HN: Will you allow your children to have social media associated with their real name?
- tamaharbor 6y agoAnd it’s easy when you are anonymous.
- aaron695 6y agoSorry, but no. If you think 'innocence' matters you are part of the problem. All internet mob's need to be stopped. I think this author is part of the problem. It's possible they are trying a tactic of gradually disarming the internet mobs, but it doesn't feel that way.
- Threeve303 6y agoSomething similar happened to me based on false accusations. Lately I've started thinking about the current mob justice compared to the protests against police brutality. Logically they are no different. Both are situations with a skewed power dynamic where innocent people can be harmed. Often both camps are comprised of the same people who act as judge, jury, and executioner. That kind of justice goes against what I believe western justice should be about. For some, the judgement phase lasts much longer than 8 minutes and 46 seconds too...
- ryandrake 6y agoThe thing about “the internet mob” is that it doesn’t affect you if you aren’t paying attention to it. I’m not on twitter or facebook or reddit or any of these social media places. Consequently, nobody there has any influence over me. There could be someone flaming me on Twitter right now and I’d have no idea and it would have no effect on my day tomorrow. I wonder how much of these Social Media generated problems we have brought onto ourselves merely by participating?
- baumy 6y agoI see where you're coming from but I don't really agree. Consider a couple of scenarios, both of which are equivalent to things that have actually happened: - Despite you not being on social media, someone who very actively is can decide to take offense to something you said or did in meatspace and sic the social media mob on you, resulting in you and your family being harassed, as well as your employer to the point that they decide firing you is the path of least resistance. Example: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/08/17/543980653/kyle-quinn-hid-at-a-friend-s-house-after-being-misidentified-on-twitter-as-a-rac https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/08/17/54... - Social media mob decides to take issue with something your employer/hometown local government/etc did, and the relevant entity enacts policy changes as a result to placate the outrage; these policy changes have a negative impact on your life You can remove yourself from the day to day outrage cycle by not participating as you say, and I've done that as well. But that doesn't mean it can't negatively impact your life, sometimes in extreme ways.
- HeadsUpHigh 6y agoIf you can't control yourself to stay in strictly technical subjects or not comment at all don't use twitter. It does nothing to you, it doesn't improve your communication with people and participating in discussions doesn't improve your knowledge either. Speak with private DMs or anonymously. You can never be sure which tweet you made will be targeted. I just use it as another RSS feed replacement but for actual people instead of sites. Reddit and HN are aggregators for sites. Never comment on anything non-technical. There's just no reason to.
- mindfulhack 6y agoI love the first paragraph of this article. It reveals exactly what's going on. The emotions and actions of mob mentality come from evolutionary social psychology - to protect the tribe from disease and death - to protect from bacteria, mould, and viruses entering and killing the whole group. Unfortunately, because of how human emotions developed out of the survival biology - and this probably happens in other species too - anyone who is 'sick', not just a physical way but a social or psychological way - like a pedophile or a racist, etc - and/or anyone who is weak, and/or anyone who is simply different - can trigger this mob mentality in most people's brains. Kids do it at an early age at school. Kids are not inherently innocent. We 'other' the individual carrier of the virus to protect the mob from being infected. At its most extreme, we call for the person's death or swiftly kill them. It's disheartening. It's really difficult to live with. I increasingly understand that my mission in life is to fight for diversity. (I run a non-profit which contributes to that.) It's not fun, or easy, but it must be done. --- It's also really important that you 'know thyself'. Since birth I have been an 'outsider' in my brain - not a member of the 'tribe'. I constantly buck up against tribal thinking and mob mentality, and I probably always will, at least, deep inside of me. But I'm increasingly accepting both my individualism and 'the group', even if 'the group' might not return the same respect. I want to help the 'group', after all. I don't desire to be alone. Just to be accepted, and others who also are different. People like me and other 'outsiders' are important for the healthy development of our species or other intelligent life. That gives me relief from the loneliness that I often feel, by being so 'different'.
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