12 ms·

Declining eyesight improved by looking at deep red light

270 points by alister 6y ago

alister 6y ago
Questions: (a) Does this study sound plausible? (b) Would staring at the correct red color on a monitor work? Or would that not work since monitor colors are generated by mixing R, G, and B pixels and therefore not a pure wavelength? (c) Would it be reasonable methodology to test one eye to see if it improves over the other eye?
- lsllc 6y ago
  I have one of those aviator LED flashlights that has the red LED for chart reading at night without destroying your night vision. I'm going to give this a try!
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    Please be careful, and stop as soon as you notice any discomfort.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - eecc 6y ago
      Might be a good idea to stare at the light reflected from a white sheet of paper. The wavelength won’t change but the intensity (and FOV coverage ) certainly will
      - GrayShade 6y ago
        How about putting a diffuser (like a sheet of paper) in front of it?
    - lsllc 6y ago
      Of course! The red LED is actually fairly dim, it's designed for pilots trying to read charts while flying at night! I got it for use with a telescope for looking operating a telescope without losing night vision.
- alister 6y ago
  Another question: (d) How much does the precise wavelength matter? The study used 670nm but also mentions the range 650-1000nm. Lots of red-light gadgets are available on Amazon but how do you verify the wavelength? I was thinking of an optical spectrum analyzer[1] but at $28,000 they are shockingly expensive. Even with raw LEDs bought from a reliable electronics distributor like Digi-Key, it would be nice to be able to measure it somehow. [1] https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=5276 https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=52...
  - cycomanic 6y ago
    I suspect you do not need to use 670nm exactly, however I suspect you need to be above 650nm. Note that many red LEDs are at a lower wavelength (~630nm). So you need to search for deep red or by wavelength. You can use a OSA, but yes they are expensive. Spectrometers are typically cheaper, but still expensive (you could go to a university optics group and ask them if they could measure it for you). That said if you buy from a reputable source you should get the right wavelength. If you are trying this out be careful with the brightness.
    - joezydeco 6y ago
      Instead of trying to emit 670nm, why not just use a wide spectrum source and a 670nm bandpass filter?
      - cleansingfire 6y ago
        Like the sun and your closed eyelids. Light transmission goes up with wavelength https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biomedical-optics/volume-16/issue-06/067011/Measuring-and-predicting-eyelid-spectral-transmittance/10.1117/1.3593151.full?SSO=1 https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biome... (see figure 5.) To speculate, perhaps we have evolved to benefit from closing our eyes in the sun.
        joezydeco 6y ago
- cycomanic 6y ago
  (a) not a medical person so can't answer this (b) unlikely, monitors work by essentially filtering out undesired colors from white light. I don't believe that >650nm light is within the color gammut of monitors. That's quite a long wavelength and close to infrared. To give you an indication, the Helium Neon lasers which used to be very common in schools etc for laser demonstrations have a wavelength of 632nm. Even if the monitor could display this, the brightness would likely not be strong enough. (c) Could be, but it might be quite annoying to do.
  - Retric 6y ago
    There are several different approaches to monitors, OLED RGB sub pixels individually emit light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED. That said, your wider point stands.
- Markoff 6y ago
  C is the correct question to see, if this actually works
- lsiebert 6y ago
  This is the hex value for 670 nanometre red. #ff0000 Per https://academo.org/demos/wavelength-to-colour-relationship/ https://academo.org/demos/wavelength-to-colour-relationship/
  - Etheryte 6y ago
    This only makes sense on a precisely calibrated display. On everything else, there's no way to tell what wavelength you actually end up with when you fill your screen with a color.
    - contravariant 6y ago
      A perfectly calibrated display might still not be able to display pure wavelengths. At the very least if it's calibrated properly it won't normally do so at #ff0000 as pure 670nm is well outside the sRGB colour space.
  - andy_ppp 6y ago
    I imagine the brightness of a monitor is not enough for there to be any effect but maybe I'm wrong?
  - liziwizi 6y ago
    yes but when i drag the slider i see that 645-700nm is also ff0000. i don't know how precise it should be..
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I would assume one needs a very good laser+DLP projection system to make this work.
- emn13 6y ago
  As to question (b): the wavelength is not the same. The red primaries in most color spaces, including wide-ish stuff like DCI-P3 is around 615. Even Rec 2020 is just 630. https://clarkvision.com/articles/color-spaces/ https://clarkvision.com/articles/color-spaces/ Note that it's fairly common to see chromaticity diagrams labelled with wavelengths around the edges, so you can check multiple sources if you want. I didn't read the original article in sufficient depth to tell you if the researchers even know what 615nm would do, but it's not 670nm anyhow ;-). Incidentally, the linked article also includes measured spectral responses for a few wide gamut screens, some of which have at least some response near 670nm. The most extreme on that page was the Del 3007WFP-HC LED, which peaked at 653, and has a wide peak hitting well over 700nm too (but below 650 too). A 2019 model Samsung Q80R qled TV (perhaps more common), had a peak at 632 nm, and at 670nm is about 20% as bright as at its peak.
giardini 6y ago
Since I returned to commuting, I've been watching far more red lights. Finally I know why my sight is improving!
dwheeler 6y ago
This seems dubious. What in world would be the mechanism? On the other hand, I don't see the harm in doing this and it seems easy to replicate. Hopefully others will quickly try to replicate it, and if they do, try to figure out why.
- jb775 6y ago
  I think it seems a little dubious as well just considering the study was done with only 24 ppl. If it works, I'd imagine the mechanism is something on the cellular level, similar to how blue light disturbs sleep by stirring up activity within a certain type of retinal cell.
  - SubiculumCode 6y ago
    While the sample is small, the article states "Researchers built on their previous findings in mice, bumblebees and fruit flies, which all found significant improvements in the function of the retina's photoreceptors when their eyes were exposed to 670 nanometre (long wavelength) deep red light." This might not be so out-of-the-blue implausible.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  Red light is established as a powerful trigger of cell repair mechanisms. Sunlight is a massive source of red light (and other colors) and if you stay indoors as much as the average person does, shining artificial red light on yourself may help make up for deficiencies.
  - klipt 6y ago
    Wow, it even decreases dementia? Crazy https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/red-light-therapy https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/red-light... I guess the new LED bulbs miss a lot of frequencies that were present in incandescent (black body radiation) bulbs. I wonder if we'll see a bunch of "light frequency deficiency" diseases arising as a result.
    - 6y ago
wincy 6y ago
I have Phillips Hue and turn them 100% red at night as we're going to bed, sometimes for a few hours, no idea if it's helping my eyesight though. Been doing it for a few years.
- danielbln 6y ago
  Why are you doing it?
  - kd5bjo 6y ago
    There have been persistent claims that cool color-temperature (bluish) light in the evenings disrupts sleep quality. I unfortunately can’t remember if that comes from rigorous studies or pop psychology.
    - DarthGhandi 6y ago
      The application flux has a lengthy list of studies on their site. I struggle for any period of nighttime on a screen without it now. https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html
    - visres 6y ago
      The reason why it may be useful to avoid blue light at night is that circadian rhythms and melatonin production can be disrupted due to ganglion cell stimulation. They are a class of photoreceptors that have peak sensitivity to blue light. They do not appear to contribute much in the way of spatial vision but are important to entrain day night cycles and for pupillary responses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_retinal_ganglion_cells#Violet-to-blue_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_r...
  - discordance 6y ago
    Not op, but I actually remember reading about a study where exposure to red light before waking up can help with addressing alertness after waking. Here it is: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6506010/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6506010/ I also know that astronomers use red light while ‘scoping as it doesn’t impact the eyes sensitivity
Der_Einzige 6y ago
Mechanism is by reducing the blue light hazard right? This is the same thing as why red light is used is the astronomy community to preserve night vision.
ars 6y ago
I wonder if our eyes need campfires when we are older, just like they need bright sunlight when children in order to properly develop and function. (Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child.) Campfires have a LOT of deep red light.
- tkahnoski 6y ago
  I can't wait for doctor prescribed sunsets and campfires.
- harry8 6y ago
  >Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child That seems like an /extremely/ dubious assertion. Maybe it's counter-intuitive and correct? Anything to back it?
  - mikkelam 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-sightedness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-sightedness It is described here in the top section
    - harry8 6y ago
      Tentative evidence indicates that the risk of near-sightedness can be decreased by having young children spend more time outside.[4][7] So that's a very, very much weaker claim "time outside may affect ..." and acknowledges the role of genetics and other factors. Of those 2 references I looked at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/ I declare I have no expertise in the field but also didn't find the meta-analysis paper convincing. This one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/ Looks the most promising. I couldn't find a replication. So there could be something in "time outside" as a beneficial preventative measure for some children w.r.t. myopia. There is nothing much like "Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child" as I understand that sentence. But maybe I've misunderstood?
s9w 6y ago
I'm not sure why the comments here seem so dismissive. The mechanism that eyes need red light for regenerative processes is known for a long time I think. I remember a friend working in optics telling me about that a decade ago. Eyes are adapted for sunlight, which is more than plausible. It's just not popular because it implies that screen use is bad and those unpopular scientific topics are often pushed under the rug.
- car 6y ago
  Source please.
  - s9w 6y ago
    Frankly my experience with posting sources on HN has almost never been good. It's often just taken as a reason to pick those apart and start a flamewar. My comment above has been downvoted at least 5 times which makes me confident that this is one those times. For what it's worth I have no stakes in anything and no sources at hand. I remember having read at least two different studies about this, but it has been years. I'm sure your google-fu is as good as mine so maybe you can find something.
    - car 6y ago
      Surely it’s not controversial to post a scientific publication supporting your claims. I suggest you Google-fu yourself.
      - s9w 6y ago
        A quick search turned up the following. The list is non-exhaustive and wasn't vetted in detail. 2017: Aging Retinal Function Is Improved by Near Infrared Light (670 Nm) ... "Our data suggest, 670 nm light can significantly improve aged retinal function" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/ --------------------------------------------------- 2016: Red Light of the Visual Spectrum Attenuates Cell Death in Culture and Retinal Ganglion Cell Death in Situ " Low, non-toxic levels of red light focussed on the retina for a short period of time are sufficient to attenuate an insult of raised IOP to the rat retina" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/ --------------------------------------------------- 2015: Mitochondrial Decline Precedes Phenotype Development in the Complement Factor H Mouse Model of Retinal Degeneration but Can Be Corrected by Near Infrared Light "we provide evidence for a mitochondrial basis for this disease in mice and correct this with simple light exposure known to improve mitochondrial function" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: 670 nm light mitigates oxygen-induced degeneration in C57BL/6J mouse retina "These results suggest that pretreatment with 670 nm light may provide stability to photoreceptors" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: Low-Intensity Far-Red Light Inhibits Early Lesions That Contribute to Diabetic Retinopathy: In Vivo and In Vitro "Daily 670-nm PBM treatment resulted in significant inhibition in the diabetes-induced death of retinal ganglion cells" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: Paranode Abnormalities and Oxidative Stress in Optic Nerve Vulnerable to Secondary Degeneration: Modulation by 670 Nm Light Treatment "Light at a wavelength of 670 nm may serve as a therapeutic intervention for treatment of secondary degeneration following neurotrauma" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/ --------------------------------------------------- 2012: Age-related Retinal Inflammation Is Reduced by 670 Nm Light via Increased Mitochondrial Membrane Potential "670 nm light [...] significantly increased mitochondrial membrane polarization and significantly reduced macrophage numbers and tumor necrosis factor-alpha levels" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/
consultutah 6y ago
So I guess I can’t just make a red image on my phone and stare at it. Right?
msie 6y ago
Red light plus bloodletting? Health centres are going to look like dungeons at this rate.
neom 6y ago
A quick google search shows that 670nm lights are quite commonly made and easy to obtain, amazon has a plethora of them (although 660nm is considerably more common).
- neom 6y ago
  I emailed the professor who did the research and asked about 660 vs 670: "Yes I am aware that the 670nm LEDs are hard to come by, they are also rather variable between batches which has caused a lot of problems for us as we now have to test extensively. I think 660nm will work. Question is, will it work as well as the 670nm? I suspect not. But also I do not know if this can be compensated for by longer exposures etc etc… There are a lot of variables here that we do not know about"
  - theelous3 6y ago
    Nice. Good job reaching out to the horses mouth :)
mannanj 6y ago
There are whole companies dedicated to selling this, Google red light therapy and you'll find a few. Novothor is the gold standard for athletes at $100k/pop. I myself jerry-rigged my own comparable unit and bath in it everyday- I haven't noticed eyesight benefits but I'm convinced I feel healthier and stronger as a result.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- j3ff5esssions 6y ago
  I am not sure about eye sight, but oddly it was HN where I read abou LLLT previously, this was link shared: https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-therapy-photobiomodulation/ https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-therapy-photobiomodula... Not to spread conspiracies but who would continue to fund this type of research as its non invasive and can essentially weed out the day to day optometrist business complex?
aaron695 6y ago
If this is real it's a huge deal. But unless they did a pre study release this is P hacked to death. 24 people, then narrowed to only over 40, 20% difference in some frequencies. If science worked we'd immediately re-test this. The cost savings per year could be enormous if it's true.
- charlieflowers 6y ago
  If no corporation can make billions, it would likely go untested. There's nothing that drives altruistic development of things that improve peoples' lives. There's only greed-driven capitalism. As a result, many helpful things sit on the shelf.
- Markoff 6y ago
  SOME over 40, not even all over 40 and SOME of these up to 20%, I guess the others less or no difference, so in the end you end up with individuals you can count on one hand if they were serious why they didn't try this only on one eye to compare the effect on each person?
  - meddlepal 6y ago
    Doing it on one eye per person would leave people with very unbalanced vision if it works great. That creates a QoL issue. Not enough understanding of the mechanism to then correct the other eye to the same level other than trying a "state at it for the same time approach".
    - Markoff 6y ago
      maximum improvement was only 20%, for most none or less than 20% and only in dark enviroment, I don't think few weeks would really make any significant difference or discomfort which could not be reversed during next few weeks when you can exercise the other eye, so that's not really valid reason why not to do it this way
Uptrenda 6y ago
This makes me think of Bulletproof Executive's self-improvement blog. He was always talking about mitochondria and hacking cells with certain light wave-lengths and lasers. I thought it was very far-fetched at the time... but maybe he was onto something. Related links: https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-hacking-for-better-energy-mood-and-performance/ https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-hacking-... He talks about the red light idea there and the crazy laser idea I'm remembering I think was "low-level light therapy." Appears to be based on science: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nihms-646190.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nih...
- manmal 6y ago
  It’s not far fetched at all. There are thousands of studies on the benefits of red light and near infrared light. Here’s the most comprehensive collection I have seen yet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJCBes3VSCJjiVO4XI0tIR0rbMBj08/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJCBes3...
- 1MachineElf 6y ago
  Several years ago, Dave Asprey (Bulletproof Executive) was one of the most positive influences on my diet/wellness. It's too bad that his constant hustle, eccentricity, and "going against the mainstream" attitude rub a lot of people the wrong way.
  - mindfulhack 6y ago
    Me too. These days, to me Dave Asprey's a mixed bag. He's the guy who's claimed for years that he's going to live past 180. But in reality, he has aged in a frightening way, much faster than the average person. He looks 20 years older than he did 6 years ago. Maybe it's because of too much biohacking? The body is just not built for so much modification for such long periods of time? But I don't take issue with his pursuit, and I wish him well. Perhaps he'll prove us wrong when something suddenly clicks when he's 80 and he actually starts decreasing in age again. I'm not being sarcastic. If he wants to keep trying, good on him.
Markoff 6y ago
I have my doubts about results of study with only 24 participants aged 28-72 years where they say SOME people over 40 have seen improvements, why don't tell how many of these SOME people were over 40? We will end up with what, 5-10 people who saw some improvement? That's anecdotic evidence.
nils-m-holm 6y ago
How about wearing laser goggles that block out, for instance, 200..550nm and 800..1000nm? Wouldn't that be like looking into a deep red light source?
mrrobotchicken 6y ago
My eyesight has been getting worse since I was addicted to reading Agatha Christine at age 14-16. After 14 years the decline has not stopped, this is definitely worth a shot.
- Terretta 6y ago
  > eyesight ... worse since ... reading Agatha Christie Like they say, an Agatha Christie a day keeps eyesight acuity away.
WhyNotHugo 6y ago
I wonder if people who aggressively use redshift and warmer lights at home could be positively affected by this over the years.
- mettamage 6y ago
  There's a confounding effect: I'm using Flux quite a bit and I'm noticing it reduces my eye strain by quite a bit.
Fred27 6y ago
This may improve colour sensitivity, but by far the biggest vision problem due to ageing is long-sightedness. This does nothing for that.
- ConsiderCrying 6y ago
  The paper also talks about improving retina sensitivity alongside color sensitivity, aren't these two different methods? How relevant is the former?
- mschaef 6y ago
  > This may improve colour sensitivity, It looks like it also improves low-light sensitivity, which is arguably more useful than colour sensitivity. "Rod sensitivity (the ability to see in low light) also improved significantly in those aged around 40 and over," > by far the biggest vision problem due to ageing is long-sightedness. I had cataracts at a young age, and had my natural lenses replaced with fixed-focus implants. There were lots of positives after the procedure, but the downside was an immediate loss of any ability to focus. (Progressive loss of ability to focus is why long-sightedness becomes an issue as you age, and this is a complete loss of that ability in fifteen minutes.) It may be that I have a 1.5D (intentional) delta in the two lenses, but loss of focusing ability hasn't been that bad so far. In fact, I can now write this on a laptop without any external correction at all. At least from my anecdotal experience, I'd characterize long-sightedness as potentially frustrating, but easily manageable. What scares me, though, are retinal issues (the ATP loss described in the paper, as well as others). Treatment options there are generally far less effective and far more intrusive.
thomk 6y ago
Do you stare deeply at a red light OR do you stare at a light that is the color deep red? If traffic lights count, I should be able to see through walls by now!
rbanffy 6y ago
Finally I found a medical reason to get myself an IBM 3290 terminal. https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_1160564850772588_8668337665210318848_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=12DB8kQzOgMAX_UOs15&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=e300c82a32814de9b31e9514490cf8be&oe=5F1F4AD6 https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_11605...
kgwxd 6y ago
What's the wavelength of the red you see when facing the sun with your eyes closed? I remember seeing some claim a few years ago (can't find it right now) that doing that every day would improve eyesight.
- robterrell 6y ago
  Not sure about the wavelength, but I believe the claim can be found in Aldous Huxley’s “The Art of Seeing” which is an account of vision therapies using the Bates method.
neves 6y ago
I have a multi colored smart lamp. Which configuration can be considered a "deep red light"?
- neves 6y ago
  This is the article specification: "...improvements in the function of the retina's photoreceptors when their eyes were exposed to 670 nanometre (long wavelength) deep red light." Can it be obtained with a normal led light?
masonic 6y ago
"Our devices cost about £12 to make, so the technology is highly accessible to members of the public." Can anybody tell me where to find a reasonably precise 670nm torch at that price point?
infogulch 6y ago
What about fire makes you want to look at it? Maybe this is one reason.
lrpublic 6y ago
Similar software with different usage models can be extremely useful and support mentoring and staff development. I’ve been using tools like manictime and more recently the open source activitywatch to help junior staff learn how to manage their own activities. I also use a paper based system similar to the emergent time tracker[3] for the same purpose. The key difference in approach is these are tools are for the individual to use to record their own activities, either to later record in other tools like JIRA or simply to remember and review their work. Time tracking and activity logging is really important for some businesses, but having a sensible approach from senior management is critical to avoid them becoming self defeating. When I ask my colleagues to log their time I set and expection that useful accuracy of more than 60% is unachievable. Whenever a senior manager suggests that developers need to log more time in JIRA I tell them they are focused on the wrong data points and will end up with every developer logging a flat 8 hours a day - probably with an automated script. Maybe useful for billing but nothing else. https://www.manictime.com/ https://www.manictime.com/ https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch [3] https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-timer/ https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-timer/
yahma 6y ago
The most important detail is missing from the articles. What intensity of light is reaching the eyes?

270 points by alister 6y ago

Questions: (a) Does this study sound plausible? (b) Would staring at the correct red color on a monitor work? Or would that not work since monitor colors are generated by mixing R, G, and B pixels and therefore not a pure wavelength? (c) Would it be reasonable methodology to test one eye to see if it improves over the other eye?

lsllc 6y ago
I have one of those aviator LED flashlights that has the red LED for chart reading at night without destroying your night vision. I'm going to give this a try!
- briefcomment 6y ago
  Please be careful, and stop as soon as you notice any discomfort.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - eecc 6y ago
    Might be a good idea to stare at the light reflected from a white sheet of paper. The wavelength won’t change but the intensity (and FOV coverage ) certainly will
    - GrayShade 6y ago
      How about putting a diffuser (like a sheet of paper) in front of it?
  - lsllc 6y ago
    Of course! The red LED is actually fairly dim, it's designed for pilots trying to read charts while flying at night! I got it for use with a telescope for looking operating a telescope without losing night vision.
alister 6y ago
Another question: (d) How much does the precise wavelength matter? The study used 670nm but also mentions the range 650-1000nm. Lots of red-light gadgets are available on Amazon but how do you verify the wavelength? I was thinking of an optical spectrum analyzer[1] but at $28,000 they are shockingly expensive. Even with raw LEDs bought from a reliable electronics distributor like Digi-Key, it would be nice to be able to measure it somehow. [1] https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=5276 https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=52...
- cycomanic 6y ago
  I suspect you do not need to use 670nm exactly, however I suspect you need to be above 650nm. Note that many red LEDs are at a lower wavelength (~630nm). So you need to search for deep red or by wavelength. You can use a OSA, but yes they are expensive. Spectrometers are typically cheaper, but still expensive (you could go to a university optics group and ask them if they could measure it for you). That said if you buy from a reputable source you should get the right wavelength. If you are trying this out be careful with the brightness.
  - joezydeco 6y ago
    Instead of trying to emit 670nm, why not just use a wide spectrum source and a 670nm bandpass filter?
    - cleansingfire 6y ago
      Like the sun and your closed eyelids. Light transmission goes up with wavelength https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biomedical-optics/volume-16/issue-06/067011/Measuring-and-predicting-eyelid-spectral-transmittance/10.1117/1.3593151.full?SSO=1 https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biome... (see figure 5.) To speculate, perhaps we have evolved to benefit from closing our eyes in the sun.
      - joezydeco 6y ago
cycomanic 6y ago
(a) not a medical person so can't answer this (b) unlikely, monitors work by essentially filtering out undesired colors from white light. I don't believe that >650nm light is within the color gammut of monitors. That's quite a long wavelength and close to infrared. To give you an indication, the Helium Neon lasers which used to be very common in schools etc for laser demonstrations have a wavelength of 632nm. Even if the monitor could display this, the brightness would likely not be strong enough. (c) Could be, but it might be quite annoying to do.
- Retric 6y ago
  There are several different approaches to monitors, OLED RGB sub pixels individually emit light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED. That said, your wider point stands.
Markoff 6y ago
C is the correct question to see, if this actually works
lsiebert 6y ago
This is the hex value for 670 nanometre red. #ff0000 Per https://academo.org/demos/wavelength-to-colour-relationship/ https://academo.org/demos/wavelength-to-colour-relationship/
- Etheryte 6y ago
  This only makes sense on a precisely calibrated display. On everything else, there's no way to tell what wavelength you actually end up with when you fill your screen with a color.
  - contravariant 6y ago
    A perfectly calibrated display might still not be able to display pure wavelengths. At the very least if it's calibrated properly it won't normally do so at #ff0000 as pure 670nm is well outside the sRGB colour space.
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  I imagine the brightness of a monitor is not enough for there to be any effect but maybe I'm wrong?
- liziwizi 6y ago
  yes but when i drag the slider i see that 645-700nm is also ff0000. i don't know how precise it should be..
- rbanffy 6y ago
  I would assume one needs a very good laser+DLP projection system to make this work.
emn13 6y ago
As to question (b): the wavelength is not the same. The red primaries in most color spaces, including wide-ish stuff like DCI-P3 is around 615. Even Rec 2020 is just 630. https://clarkvision.com/articles/color-spaces/ https://clarkvision.com/articles/color-spaces/ Note that it's fairly common to see chromaticity diagrams labelled with wavelengths around the edges, so you can check multiple sources if you want. I didn't read the original article in sufficient depth to tell you if the researchers even know what 615nm would do, but it's not 670nm anyhow ;-). Incidentally, the linked article also includes measured spectral responses for a few wide gamut screens, some of which have at least some response near 670nm. The most extreme on that page was the Del 3007WFP-HC LED, which peaked at 653, and has a wide peak hitting well over 700nm too (but below 650 too). A 2019 model Samsung Q80R qled TV (perhaps more common), had a peak at 632 nm, and at 670nm is about 20% as bright as at its peak.

giardini 6y ago

Since I returned to commuting, I've been watching far more red lights. Finally I know why my sight is improving!

dwheeler 6y ago

This seems dubious. What in world would be the mechanism? On the other hand, I don't see the harm in doing this and it seems easy to replicate. Hopefully others will quickly try to replicate it, and if they do, try to figure out why.

jb775 6y ago
I think it seems a little dubious as well just considering the study was done with only 24 ppl. If it works, I'd imagine the mechanism is something on the cellular level, similar to how blue light disturbs sleep by stirring up activity within a certain type of retinal cell.
- SubiculumCode 6y ago
  While the sample is small, the article states "Researchers built on their previous findings in mice, bumblebees and fruit flies, which all found significant improvements in the function of the retina's photoreceptors when their eyes were exposed to 670 nanometre (long wavelength) deep red light." This might not be so out-of-the-blue implausible.
briefcomment 6y ago
Red light is established as a powerful trigger of cell repair mechanisms. Sunlight is a massive source of red light (and other colors) and if you stay indoors as much as the average person does, shining artificial red light on yourself may help make up for deficiencies.
- klipt 6y ago
  Wow, it even decreases dementia? Crazy https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/red-light-therapy https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/red-light... I guess the new LED bulbs miss a lot of frequencies that were present in incandescent (black body radiation) bulbs. I wonder if we'll see a bunch of "light frequency deficiency" diseases arising as a result.
  - 6y ago

wincy 6y ago

I have Phillips Hue and turn them 100% red at night as we're going to bed, sometimes for a few hours, no idea if it's helping my eyesight though. Been doing it for a few years.

danielbln 6y ago
Why are you doing it?
- kd5bjo 6y ago
  There have been persistent claims that cool color-temperature (bluish) light in the evenings disrupts sleep quality. I unfortunately can’t remember if that comes from rigorous studies or pop psychology.
  - DarthGhandi 6y ago
    The application flux has a lengthy list of studies on their site. I struggle for any period of nighttime on a screen without it now. https://justgetflux.com/research.html https://justgetflux.com/research.html
  - visres 6y ago
    The reason why it may be useful to avoid blue light at night is that circadian rhythms and melatonin production can be disrupted due to ganglion cell stimulation. They are a class of photoreceptors that have peak sensitivity to blue light. They do not appear to contribute much in the way of spatial vision but are important to entrain day night cycles and for pupillary responses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_retinal_ganglion_cells#Violet-to-blue_light https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsically_photosensitive_r...
- discordance 6y ago
  Not op, but I actually remember reading about a study where exposure to red light before waking up can help with addressing alertness after waking. Here it is: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6506010/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6506010/ I also know that astronomers use red light while ‘scoping as it doesn’t impact the eyes sensitivity

Der_Einzige 6y ago

Mechanism is by reducing the blue light hazard right? This is the same thing as why red light is used is the astronomy community to preserve night vision.

ars 6y ago

I wonder if our eyes need campfires when we are older, just like they need bright sunlight when children in order to properly develop and function. (Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child.) Campfires have a LOT of deep red light.

tkahnoski 6y ago
I can't wait for doctor prescribed sunsets and campfires.
harry8 6y ago
>Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child That seems like an /extremely/ dubious assertion. Maybe it's counter-intuitive and correct? Anything to back it?
- mikkelam 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-sightedness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-sightedness It is described here in the top section
  - harry8 6y ago
    Tentative evidence indicates that the risk of near-sightedness can be decreased by having young children spend more time outside.[4][7] So that's a very, very much weaker claim "time outside may affect ..." and acknowledges the role of genetics and other factors. Of those 2 references I looked at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/ I declare I have no expertise in the field but also didn't find the meta-analysis paper convincing. This one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/ Looks the most promising. I couldn't find a replication. So there could be something in "time outside" as a beneficial preventative measure for some children w.r.t. myopia. There is nothing much like "Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child" as I understand that sentence. But maybe I've misunderstood?

s9w 6y ago

I'm not sure why the comments here seem so dismissive. The mechanism that eyes need red light for regenerative processes is known for a long time I think. I remember a friend working in optics telling me about that a decade ago. Eyes are adapted for sunlight, which is more than plausible. It's just not popular because it implies that screen use is bad and those unpopular scientific topics are often pushed under the rug.

car 6y ago
Source please.
- s9w 6y ago
  Frankly my experience with posting sources on HN has almost never been good. It's often just taken as a reason to pick those apart and start a flamewar. My comment above has been downvoted at least 5 times which makes me confident that this is one those times. For what it's worth I have no stakes in anything and no sources at hand. I remember having read at least two different studies about this, but it has been years. I'm sure your google-fu is as good as mine so maybe you can find something.
  - car 6y ago
    Surely it’s not controversial to post a scientific publication supporting your claims. I suggest you Google-fu yourself.
    - s9w 6y ago
      A quick search turned up the following. The list is non-exhaustive and wasn't vetted in detail. 2017: Aging Retinal Function Is Improved by Near Infrared Light (670 Nm) ... "Our data suggest, 670 nm light can significantly improve aged retinal function" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/ --------------------------------------------------- 2016: Red Light of the Visual Spectrum Attenuates Cell Death in Culture and Retinal Ganglion Cell Death in Situ " Low, non-toxic levels of red light focussed on the retina for a short period of time are sufficient to attenuate an insult of raised IOP to the rat retina" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/ --------------------------------------------------- 2015: Mitochondrial Decline Precedes Phenotype Development in the Complement Factor H Mouse Model of Retinal Degeneration but Can Be Corrected by Near Infrared Light "we provide evidence for a mitochondrial basis for this disease in mice and correct this with simple light exposure known to improve mitochondrial function" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: 670 nm light mitigates oxygen-induced degeneration in C57BL/6J mouse retina "These results suggest that pretreatment with 670 nm light may provide stability to photoreceptors" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: Low-Intensity Far-Red Light Inhibits Early Lesions That Contribute to Diabetic Retinopathy: In Vivo and In Vitro "Daily 670-nm PBM treatment resulted in significant inhibition in the diabetes-induced death of retinal ganglion cells" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/ --------------------------------------------------- 2013: Paranode Abnormalities and Oxidative Stress in Optic Nerve Vulnerable to Secondary Degeneration: Modulation by 670 Nm Light Treatment "Light at a wavelength of 670 nm may serve as a therapeutic intervention for treatment of secondary degeneration following neurotrauma" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/ --------------------------------------------------- 2012: Age-related Retinal Inflammation Is Reduced by 670 Nm Light via Increased Mitochondrial Membrane Potential "670 nm light [...] significantly increased mitochondrial membrane polarization and significantly reduced macrophage numbers and tumor necrosis factor-alpha levels" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/

consultutah 6y ago

So I guess I can’t just make a red image on my phone and stare at it. Right?

msie 6y ago

Red light plus bloodletting? Health centres are going to look like dungeons at this rate.

neom 6y ago

A quick google search shows that 670nm lights are quite commonly made and easy to obtain, amazon has a plethora of them (although 660nm is considerably more common).

neom 6y ago
I emailed the professor who did the research and asked about 660 vs 670: "Yes I am aware that the 670nm LEDs are hard to come by, they are also rather variable between batches which has caused a lot of problems for us as we now have to test extensively. I think 660nm will work. Question is, will it work as well as the 670nm? I suspect not. But also I do not know if this can be compensated for by longer exposures etc etc… There are a lot of variables here that we do not know about"
- theelous3 6y ago
  Nice. Good job reaching out to the horses mouth :)

mannanj 6y ago

There are whole companies dedicated to selling this, Google red light therapy and you'll find a few. Novothor is the gold standard for athletes at $100k/pop. I myself jerry-rigged my own comparable unit and bath in it everyday- I haven't noticed eyesight benefits but I'm convinced I feel healthier and stronger as a result.

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j3ff5esssions 6y ago
I am not sure about eye sight, but oddly it was HN where I read abou LLLT previously, this was link shared: https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-therapy-photobiomodulation/ https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-therapy-photobiomodula... Not to spread conspiracies but who would continue to fund this type of research as its non invasive and can essentially weed out the day to day optometrist business complex?

aaron695 6y ago

If this is real it's a huge deal. But unless they did a pre study release this is P hacked to death. 24 people, then narrowed to only over 40, 20% difference in some frequencies. If science worked we'd immediately re-test this. The cost savings per year could be enormous if it's true.

charlieflowers 6y ago
If no corporation can make billions, it would likely go untested. There's nothing that drives altruistic development of things that improve peoples' lives. There's only greed-driven capitalism. As a result, many helpful things sit on the shelf.
Markoff 6y ago
SOME over 40, not even all over 40 and SOME of these up to 20%, I guess the others less or no difference, so in the end you end up with individuals you can count on one hand if they were serious why they didn't try this only on one eye to compare the effect on each person?
- meddlepal 6y ago
  Doing it on one eye per person would leave people with very unbalanced vision if it works great. That creates a QoL issue. Not enough understanding of the mechanism to then correct the other eye to the same level other than trying a "state at it for the same time approach".
  - Markoff 6y ago
    maximum improvement was only 20%, for most none or less than 20% and only in dark enviroment, I don't think few weeks would really make any significant difference or discomfort which could not be reversed during next few weeks when you can exercise the other eye, so that's not really valid reason why not to do it this way

Uptrenda 6y ago

This makes me think of Bulletproof Executive's self-improvement blog. He was always talking about mitochondria and hacking cells with certain light wave-lengths and lasers. I thought it was very far-fetched at the time... but maybe he was onto something. Related links: https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-hacking-for-better-energy-mood-and-performance/ https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-hacking-... He talks about the red light idea there and the crazy laser idea I'm remembering I think was "low-level light therapy." Appears to be based on science: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nihms-646190.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nih...

manmal 6y ago
It’s not far fetched at all. There are thousands of studies on the benefits of red light and near infrared light. Here’s the most comprehensive collection I have seen yet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJCBes3VSCJjiVO4XI0tIR0rbMBj08/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJCBes3...
1MachineElf 6y ago
Several years ago, Dave Asprey (Bulletproof Executive) was one of the most positive influences on my diet/wellness. It's too bad that his constant hustle, eccentricity, and "going against the mainstream" attitude rub a lot of people the wrong way.
- mindfulhack 6y ago
  Me too. These days, to me Dave Asprey's a mixed bag. He's the guy who's claimed for years that he's going to live past 180. But in reality, he has aged in a frightening way, much faster than the average person. He looks 20 years older than he did 6 years ago. Maybe it's because of too much biohacking? The body is just not built for so much modification for such long periods of time? But I don't take issue with his pursuit, and I wish him well. Perhaps he'll prove us wrong when something suddenly clicks when he's 80 and he actually starts decreasing in age again. I'm not being sarcastic. If he wants to keep trying, good on him.

Markoff 6y ago

I have my doubts about results of study with only 24 participants aged 28-72 years where they say SOME people over 40 have seen improvements, why don't tell how many of these SOME people were over 40? We will end up with what, 5-10 people who saw some improvement? That's anecdotic evidence.

nils-m-holm 6y ago

How about wearing laser goggles that block out, for instance, 200..550nm and 800..1000nm? Wouldn't that be like looking into a deep red light source?

mrrobotchicken 6y ago

My eyesight has been getting worse since I was addicted to reading Agatha Christine at age 14-16. After 14 years the decline has not stopped, this is definitely worth a shot.

Terretta 6y ago
> eyesight ... worse since ... reading Agatha Christie Like they say, an Agatha Christie a day keeps eyesight acuity away.

WhyNotHugo 6y ago

I wonder if people who aggressively use redshift and warmer lights at home could be positively affected by this over the years.

mettamage 6y ago
There's a confounding effect: I'm using Flux quite a bit and I'm noticing it reduces my eye strain by quite a bit.

Fred27 6y ago

This may improve colour sensitivity, but by far the biggest vision problem due to ageing is long-sightedness. This does nothing for that.

ConsiderCrying 6y ago
The paper also talks about improving retina sensitivity alongside color sensitivity, aren't these two different methods? How relevant is the former?
mschaef 6y ago
> This may improve colour sensitivity, It looks like it also improves low-light sensitivity, which is arguably more useful than colour sensitivity. "Rod sensitivity (the ability to see in low light) also improved significantly in those aged around 40 and over," > by far the biggest vision problem due to ageing is long-sightedness. I had cataracts at a young age, and had my natural lenses replaced with fixed-focus implants. There were lots of positives after the procedure, but the downside was an immediate loss of any ability to focus. (Progressive loss of ability to focus is why long-sightedness becomes an issue as you age, and this is a complete loss of that ability in fifteen minutes.) It may be that I have a 1.5D (intentional) delta in the two lenses, but loss of focusing ability hasn't been that bad so far. In fact, I can now write this on a laptop without any external correction at all. At least from my anecdotal experience, I'd characterize long-sightedness as potentially frustrating, but easily manageable. What scares me, though, are retinal issues (the ATP loss described in the paper, as well as others). Treatment options there are generally far less effective and far more intrusive.

thomk 6y ago

Do you stare deeply at a red light OR do you stare at a light that is the color deep red? If traffic lights count, I should be able to see through walls by now!

rbanffy 6y ago

Finally I found a medical reason to get myself an IBM 3290 terminal. https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_1160564850772588_8668337665210318848_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=12DB8kQzOgMAX_UOs15&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=e300c82a32814de9b31e9514490cf8be&oe=5F1F4AD6 https://scontent-dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_11605...

kgwxd 6y ago

What's the wavelength of the red you see when facing the sun with your eyes closed? I remember seeing some claim a few years ago (can't find it right now) that doing that every day would improve eyesight.

robterrell 6y ago
Not sure about the wavelength, but I believe the claim can be found in Aldous Huxley’s “The Art of Seeing” which is an account of vision therapies using the Bates method.

neves 6y ago

I have a multi colored smart lamp. Which configuration can be considered a "deep red light"?

neves 6y ago
This is the article specification: "...improvements in the function of the retina's photoreceptors when their eyes were exposed to 670 nanometre (long wavelength) deep red light." Can it be obtained with a normal led light?

masonic 6y ago

"Our devices cost about £12 to make, so the technology is highly accessible to members of the public." Can anybody tell me where to find a reasonably precise 670nm torch at that price point?

infogulch 6y ago

What about fire makes you want to look at it? Maybe this is one reason.

lrpublic 6y ago

Similar software with different usage models can be extremely useful and support mentoring and staff development. I’ve been using tools like manictime and more recently the open source activitywatch to help junior staff learn how to manage their own activities. I also use a paper based system similar to the emergent time tracker[3] for the same purpose. The key difference in approach is these are tools are for the individual to use to record their own activities, either to later record in other tools like JIRA or simply to remember and review their work. Time tracking and activity logging is really important for some businesses, but having a sensible approach from senior management is critical to avoid them becoming self defeating. When I ask my colleagues to log their time I set and expection that useful accuracy of more than 60% is unachievable. Whenever a senior manager suggests that developers need to log more time in JIRA I tell them they are focused on the wrong data points and will end up with every developer logging a flat 8 hours a day - probably with an automated script. Maybe useful for billing but nothing else. https://www.manictime.com/ https://www.manictime.com/ https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch [3] https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-timer/ https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-timer/

yahma 6y ago

The most important detail is missing from the articles. What intensity of light is reaching the eyes?