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India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a

India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results.

joshribakoff 6y ago
There is no guarantee any app is not doing this, should we ban all apps?
ianleeclark 6y ago
Are YouTube algorithms open? I don't really see a difference here. Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, but I don't see why. They're both going to react to material stimuli to increase their standings.
- azinman2 6y ago
  It’s about allies versus active enemies. There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently.
  - seamyb88 6y ago
    Ah right. Because the U.S. is never involved in war, it's a different story for youtube etc...
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    So it's just opportunism, then? Condemn the other; refuse reflection. Or am I misunderstanding you?
    - azinman2 6y ago
      I can’t say what India’s motivation is for sure. Maybe there’s a credible threat in a way that Facebook isn’t. Maybe it’s just anti-Chinese fervor. But saying anything outside of India should be treated the same is not taking into account geo-politics and individual country’s behaviors.
      - josephv 6y ago
        Coordination with the US means jobs and economic opportunity for both sides. Coordination with China means gunfights and border tension. It's pretty simple if you don't try to extrapolate everything to logical extrems. India and US is ally, India and China is rival. Full stop, it ends there. KISS
      - petre 6y ago
        We live in interesting times, ripe for manipulation and propaganda, both if which China and Russia have spread in the EU during the last months. India's ban is completely warranted. The fact that they also have a border dispute with China only makes things worse. I'd rather they ban a few apps than escalation and war.
    - bobthepanda 6y ago
      It's about harm and risk reduction. All other things held equal, you would expect your enemies to be doing more to undermine you than your allies would.
    - saiya-jin 6y ago
      Using opportunity to actually perform a good thing for privacy (tiktok at least was found snooping all it can from users phones, not sure about the rest but given how chinese run things that would be expected). No tear will be shed for those apps, regardless from which country they come from (I know this is very targeted due to recent tensions, but its still a step in the right direction re privacy)
  - ra7 6y ago
    > There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently. There are no "shootouts". There are standoffs sometimes (think once a year if you want to define regularity) due to the loosely demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China. It's usually a melee. Even the recent escalated incident wasn't a shootout. There are agreements between Indian and Chinese governments that prevent usage of firearms in standoffs like these.
    - stickfigure 6y ago
      I agree that "shootouts" is the wrong word, but "melee" doesn't quite capture the gruesomeness of human beings beating each other to death with spiked clubs.
    - azinman2 6y ago
      20 Indian soldiers died just two weeks ago: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/asia/china-india-border-clash-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/asia/china-india-border-clash...
      - ra7 6y ago
        Yes, I'm aware of the news. It still wasn't due to a "shootout". > What’s happening along the Himalayan border is an unusual kind of warfare. As in the brawls last month, Chinese and Indian soldiers fought fiercely without firing a shot — at least that’s what officials on both sides contend. They say the soldiers followed their de facto border code not to use firearms and went at each other with fists, rocks and wooden clubs, some possibly studded with nails or wrapped in barbed wire. From https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-border-clash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-b...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jankassens 6y ago
  If India (or any other country for that matter) would be in an armed conflict with the US, they would probably also consider banning various US controlled services.
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    I asked about the algorithm thing--that's what I'm curious about. Where specifically does that belief end.
    - systemvoltage 6y ago
      I'd guess that double-standards are inevitable and desired when there is an armed conflict between nations. If Indian government sees no harm in US apps whilst banning Chinese apps, this is the definition of diplomatic pressure. Asymmetry is the tool used to apply this pressure. Your point is valid - we have no way to know Facebook algorithms and it is a blackbox, but this isn't supposed to be a symmetric comparison for aforementioned reasons.
  - pvelagal 6y ago
    China is not in armed conflict with US , why does it ban every app that civilized world uses ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
    - dis-sys 6y ago
      protectionism.
- saltedonion 6y ago
  You have a good point. But TikTok is much more risky, and as as such requires much more scrutiny given existing body of knowledge between how chinese social media / chat companies such as WeChat enforce government censorship and aid in propagating misinformation. This might be a shock to most people in the western world, but if you go on almost ANY news website in china, the headline news is dedicated to government propaganda. The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately. Nearly all sizable firms have a party secretary that is involved in board level decisions, and steps in when things get political. You can ponder who has the final say.
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    > The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't point out a boogeyman pulling the strings.
    - pyuser583 6y ago
      The concern is the coordination between Chinese foreign affairs/security services and the commercial sector. For US-based firms, that’s simply not the case. Yes, YouTube needs to make sure Nike is happy. But Nike didn’t just kill two dozen Indian soldiers. Certainly there’s privacy related concerns with US companies - as with Chinese companies. But nobody had accused the DoD of manipulating YouTube search rankings. If the DoD wants to conduct a YouTube propaganda campaign, they can buy advertising like everybody else.
      - RobertoG 6y ago
        I don't know, I still remember how, in a poll before the invasion of Iraq, a majority of Americans though that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 11S attacks.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  Biggest difference is motives, as long as we are making the assumption you mean private corporations that aren’t proxies for their respective government(s) A private company will optimize profit, all things being equal. Sometimes this means it’s product/platform can be used to disseminate possibly dangerous information, but it also can be regulated in response. Another government? Not so easy Only way to really assert influence is through a much more narrow and limited scope like diplomacy, economic sanction, war, or otherwise influence the state/affairs of the country through target regulations like the ones mentioned in the article
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    > Sometimes this means it’s product/platform can be used to disseminate possibly dangerous information, but it also can be regulated in response. I don't think this is true specifically in the case of America. Who are you going to get to actually grapple that beast of a multi national? Yeah, lots of people talk about it, but politics ultimately requires a degree of consensus. When you have investors calling up their representatives saying they will donate to their opponent next election or they will move jobs out of the area, politicians are going to start falling off. Oh, these politicians are all probably invested in these companies to some degree, or maybe they rent apartments to their workers. There's also the gridlock issue that likely can't be resolved unless we start adding states, so legislation will be hard there. Companies like alphabet and Facebook are the culmination of the last 40 years of politics in America.
    - no_wizard 6y ago
      Never intended for this to mean it was easy or anything. As you noted already it isn’t always. However this also admits it can be done as I mentioned too. You can’t pass legislation that makes another government open itself up to transparency though. That’s the fundamental difference
      - ianleeclark 6y ago
        > However this also admits it can be done as I mentioned too. That wasn't the intention
- StreamBright 6y ago
  Not to mention state sponsored private firm, being private is just optics.
- dathinab 6y ago
  Good point. But YouTube is not controlled by an authoritarian fascist-like government which has a world view in direct opposition to what you could refer handwaveingly as "western" and is currently pushing to become the dominant power in the world. If you furthermore consider how bad the "western world" (mainly Britten and the East India Company) had treated it in the past, some aspects of the Chinese culture and the current Goverment direction western countries expecting any fair or reasonable treatment once china succeeded to become the worlds dominant power is kinda a sad joke.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    YouTube isn't controlled by an authoritarian fascist-like government - it is run by the fascist-lite corporate oligarchy which runs the US. The US may not be as bad as china in some ways but that doesn't absolve them from responsibility.
    - banachtarski 6y ago
      Trying to draw a parallel between Google and a country that literally tortures and murders its citizens for "unsanctioned beliefs" is disingenuous. Cut the bullshit.
      - colordrops 6y ago
        Ignorance of US history of endless human rights abuses (including torture) both domestic and foreign by the US is not an excuse for being condescending and overly confident on an internet forum.
        banachtarski 6y ago
        Let's talk about modern day since that's the topic at hand. Who was the last US citizen you know of to be arrested, detained, and killed for voicing opposition to the way the government is run. I'm not saying the US government is perfect (especially in this time, far from it), I'm just saying the comparison isn't remotely apropos. I would say I have the "correct" level of confidence in this regard.
- mtgp1000 6y ago
  You don't see a difference between an ideological party which interns millions of people by ethnicity (among other glaring issues), and a corporation seeking profits from a video platform?
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    On the question of black box algorithms, no because it's not relevant.
    - seemack 6y ago
      I would think that the reputation of the creator becomes even more critical when considering a black box algorithm.
- lala26in 6y ago
  3/5 board of directors of ByteDance that owns TikTok are western.
- hyko 6y ago
  Because YouTube doesn’t have nuclear weapons and a plan to invade western allies?
- Bayart 6y ago
  YT has a legal framework that gives it protection to an extent from government interference, especially where it touches upon freedom of speech. Whether they want to use it or not is another question. But the Party can just put officials in the Douyin (TikTok) offices and ask for any encryption key without having to divulge anything and without the company having any recourse. This in complete legality. Large corporations becoming the end point for debate is a real problem, but I don't think it really overlaps with public/private collusion (or the lack of true private in China's case).
- thuruv 6y ago
  Politics does. That's the difference. Acting on above is solely depends on political bias instead of a concrete notice. No official research conducted and released stating the harm about the apps, right?
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  Let's be honest here; if India's relations with USA had soured to the same degree as with PRC, Youtube would be the one getting banned.
  - suyash 6y ago
    USA and India are friends unlike CCP which can't be trusted by anyone.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      No one in the entire world with half a brain trusts the US, or any state for that matter. Too much backstabbing. Ask the Kurds.
- slowmovintarget 6y ago
  TikTok apps add a vector for arbitrary code download and execution. What "algorithm" you get would seem to depend on what they'd like to run on your device that day.
- seebetter 6y ago
  The Chinese State is based on Marxism-Leninism and wants to dominate the world. There is a difference in that and any other country that acknowledges natural rights. If you believe rights are innate, then you can’t openly tolerate a state that denies them. I often think what would California look like if it had the laws of Texas. Or what would China look like if it had the structure and motivations of Nevada? Both have Elon Musk and gambling.
- cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
  China is a special case because they are among the very few number of countries in the world where the government openly controls the media and the private companies. A U.S. company like Twitter even bans the U.S. president's posts on their platform, and so does Facebook. Something like that is impossible in China as whoever does that will instantly get shut down. Think about the implication of this. This means you have to assume that any Chinese tech company will have to comply when the government tells them to spread some propaganda through their media. This is what has been called in a science fiction as "information warfare", and it can be even more catastrophic than a real war, but I don't think most people realize this because they've never seen one before. What's even scarier is that even as this is happening, nobody knows this is happening, which is worse than a war because, unlike a physical war where everything is visible, one country can "attack" another country without anyone else realizing, causing a huge damage to their economy.
  - concordDance 6y ago
    Forget the economy. The damage to social infrastructure and trust is far more serious. Groups violently turning on eachother, families splitting over political divides, lynchings... these matter a lot more than whether people have nice cars.
- trekrich 6y ago
  hmm google or the ccp. Take your pick!
- everdrive 6y ago
  > Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, A nation state and a company are different in substance as well. I am sympathetic to the idea that companies (in America) can do more to curtail your freedoms. But, this is only true because of our system of government. In principle, a government can do much more than a company to curtail your freedoms. In practice, this is often less true. (although if you bump into eminent domain, or similar laws, then the government is much more threatening to you.) We don't have to look far for this theoretical: the Chinese government rounds up people and puts them in camps, and disappears people for having the wrong opinions.
- SllX 6y ago
  Nation states have military, intelligence, diplomacy and police corps. They reserve the power to stop, detain, arrest, jail, try, sentence, imprison, and kill. That’s why how we go about those things is a Big Deal, and why we have so many rules about who can go about it, how, under what circumstances, what the laws are that they’re enforcing, what the processes and procedures are for enforcement and how guilt is determined. Corporations as a rule, and there have been exceptions, but as a rule have none of those powers. Theoretically the worst crimes they’re going to commit are fraudulent in nature and crimes of negligence. They’re not just a separate org chart ultimately serving as a private arm of the State with its own private rules that it self-enforces; they’re different beasts entirely. The problem with PRC-based corporations is that they muddy the waters entirely between what is private and public. As far as the PRC is concerned, all private life is subject to the State and should serve the interests of the State. Google and Facebook and your favorite café or tea house can and do have interests that lie entirely outside of the State and are free to pursue them. That is the difference between a free society and an authoritarian State.
  - xwolfi 6y ago
    I think you forget a detail. Nation state, or any state, are sovereign. If the national community agrees on something, it's all that matter. We don't have to abide by other countries standards on everything especially if we dont like it. Im thinking as a French I had to fight a lot with free speech absolutists abroad, while at home we're quite okay with selective censorship... it sounds scary to an American sometimes, but hell we dont care :D
    - SllX 6y ago
      We can respect another nation’s sovereignty without respecting their authoritarianism. I very much believe we should be disrespecting the hell out of authoritarian States, much more than we do so now because authoritarianism doesn’t stop at the borders, it stops at the practical limit that a State can enforce its laws which is why when the NBA was quite literally kowtowing to the PRC, we had a problem with that. PRC corporations have a history of behaving in a mistrustful manner, combined with their obligations to the PRC State which treats its citizens as subjects, and sometimes not even its citizens, but anybody of Chinese descent, PRC corporations absolutely should be singled out and treated with mistrust. Our corporations have the obligation to turn a profit for their shareholders and sometimes that even means entering into a contract with the government, but theirs also have the obligation to advance the interests of the State. Dual mandates, even when not initially at odds with each other, often eventually come into conflict with each other, and State-owned or controlled corporations often don’t even have the profit incentive but are instead subject to politics. See also: the American corporations Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for examples of why they’re a bad idea, although their enterprises are domestic. This is off topic but since you brought it up, we’re not the free speech absolutists that we believe we are. What we took issue with specifically was the idea of a central government regulating speech, assembly, the press and the establishment of churches. We still had established churches for quite some time, but they were governed by the States, not the United States. Let me quote you the First Amendment: > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Everything you really need to know is in the first five words. It’s a prohibition on Congress, not a grant of rights, and this would later come to be incorporated against the States as well such that their legislatures have the same restrictions. The reason this amendment exists at all was 1. To quell dissent from the Anti-Federalists which campaigned against the Constitution in the ratification conventions and 2. Because then and now, we’re a nation of dissenters. Many of the people that migrated from Europe to the United States were religious dissenters or penal colonists living in exile. I don’t know to what degree you studied the Huguenots in French history, but they made a few attempts to establish themselves, each time French politics seeking their resupply attempts after the initial landing, before receiving a land grant in what is now Brooklyn, and then was part of the New Netherlands.
- rossjudson 6y ago
  I mean, they both are made of people, right? And those people have brains that they use, right? And brains are made of molecules, right? At the end of the day it's all just molecules reacting to stimuli, and basically there's no difference. Because they are molecules.
- zahreeley 6y ago
  because China is enemy and America is friend.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Xi is censoring protests on their platforms, but it's clear that Trump can't. That's a clear proof of difference.
- john4532452 6y ago
  On YouTube at least the user has the option to search and subscribe the videos, there by controlling what is shown, it is not the same with TikTok
- Nginx487 6y ago
  There are no private companies in China, all of the corporate entities directly or indirectly depend on CCP, which uses every opportunity to damage national security of its enemies.
zacharytelschow 6y ago
> As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that [insert platform here] isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mrlala 6y ago
I was skeptical about this, but I think they are surely are. I installed tiktok just maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.. it was kind of fun at first and was amused by some stuff on there. What it was showing me I thought was very relevant to prior stuff I had seen in some regard (just the type of humor) so I was kind of impressed. Then all the sudden it started showing me all this pro-Trump/pro-religion/antiBLM stuff. And look, a platform like this and the age demographic the amount of pro-trump & pro-religion stuff is TINY. The amount that was coming up was baffling. And it would just be inserted at the weirdest times, where it honestly felt like I was being targeted to see this stuff. I'm not one to be a conspiracy nut at all, but there were some flags hitting in my head that something weird was going on.. so I promptly uninstalled. Honestly it's too bad, I think tiktok is a very unique thing, and seemed to fill some type of space where people just want to create stupid little videos that either say a little message or are just funny. But there's something weird going on.
- stevens32 6y ago
  I don't think there's any mystery here, I also started seeing pro-Trump posts but that's because I'd watched other posts. If you start swiping immediately on those videos, they stop showing up. The algorithm doesn't care if you watched a video because you were enjoying it or were upset but couldn't turn away (or if you left a comment to support the content or argue with the creator). They tune it to glue your eyeball to the screen.
  - mrlala 6y ago
    I wouldn't watch them though, I was flipping away pretty quick. Hard to explain exactly, just saying that it really seemed unusual. Again it was also the amount that were coming up. I watched a descent amount of BLM related videos a few nights.. like, a lot. Then a few insane trump ones which maybe I watch a few moments but keep swiping away, only to be suggested more Trump and less BLM? Anyway- I understand it's conjecture and hard to say what I was seeing.. just seemed off, and it's pretty easy to jump to the conclusion that it was attempting to manipulate me.
- hnal943 6y ago
bigpumpkin 6y ago
You are going to use the government to audit black box algos?
numpad0 6y ago
Since this is HN, what’s the easiest way to roll your own brainwashing machine like Facebook or TikTok? I mean isn’t it going to be fun to plant your own ideas on people...
- huhnmonster 6y ago
  Going from what currently seems to be popular: huge botnets that carefully try to curate "real" users from random accounts. Rolling your own (Network that is, like FB or TikTok) seems pretty unlikely regarding initial investments, user base etc.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    I wonder what's stopping them. Initial investments is likely an issue for small, poor countries, but it can't be an issue for a country like India or Saudi Arabia, and the user base can be "convinced" to use the domestic thing by doing what India does: block foreign services. It seems more sustainable and much easier to work with if you have your own network, and you don't rely on US-services looking away / Twitter tolerating your stuff.
    - huhnmonster 6y ago
      I totally agree with you there, I was arguing from the view of a bad actor, not necessarily a government. For a bad actor, the cost-reward looks pretty low (if we assume a high initial investment like a couple hundred million dollars to approach our goal of data collection in a shorter timeframe), but for a government that is probably totally doable.
    - puranjay 6y ago
      Will never happen because Indian governments are stuck in an unceasing bureaucratic quagmire. A tech solution, especially one that has to be culturally relevant and edgy to appeal to young people is absolutely beyond the scope of the Indian government machinery.
    - est31 6y ago
mytailorisrich 6y ago
Covid-19 is biting extremely hard in India. Handling has been very poor so far. Stroking nationalism and pointing at foreign enemies in hard times is a tried and tested tactic.
- seshagiric 6y ago
  That's not true in this case. There is continued aggression by China, infringing into India borders. It would be stupid of Indian govt. not to react.
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Exactly what I'm saying. A tried and tested tactic that works well. And in fact I think China is playing a similar game, and the Chinese public buys it in the same way. But it is a dangerous game because it can get out of hands. I think both sides know it and they don't want things to escalate. We need to see how the pandemic develops and hits both countries and their economies. I'm more worried about the Indian side at the moment because the pandemic situation seems out of hands and deteriorating fast there.
    - rgrs 6y ago
      And your proposed solution is?
- decon2 6y ago
  I agree. Similar to using terrorist attacks to stoke nationalist feelings and distract from demonetization
  - thowme245 6y ago
    There is no Chinese aggression on the Indian border, they are not interning anyone, China is not a police state. It's all in people's dreams.
- hnal943 6y ago
akshaybhalotia 6y ago
Very interesting. I would like to know more about this thought. Is the problem, let's say, with: - the country of origin, so if this was the exact same app from US it would have been less harmful, or, - the amount of time people spend on it, so if people spent time on something like facebook it would have been less harmful?
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  The amount of data they harvest off the app is scary, but I wish we'd be just as strict with Google over it. It's like the industry is slowly moving towards limiting these things, or making this type of spying much more covert as new things become exposed like the clipboard thing that TikTok does on iOS I can only imagine it's just as bad on Android, to the point where it should be a permission on a per app basis.
- kevincox 6y ago
  I think it is the sum of the two. They don't want the Chinese government to have that much influence over their population. It is an extreme move, but I see the logic behind it.
gdubs 6y ago
Just from a more farcical standpoint, the idea of one country attacking another via dance trends feels like a page out of Zoolander.
- stevens32 6y ago
  This is a world I want to live in. Where do I sign up?
moscovium 6y ago
China bad
- JungleGymSam 6y ago
  Yes. That's a given.
  - puranjay 6y ago
    I think the poster was saying that sarcastically - a variation of the "Orange Man Bad" meme
edoo 6y ago
I also bet the Chinese version of TikTok, if it is even allowed in their country, has a completely different content moderation system. They are more than likely promoting degeneracy in our country while promoting their own ideals at home.
- bjourne 6y ago
  You are spreading baseless, racist speculation.
  - edoo 6y ago
    China is a shithole fascist country of oppression and slavery, not a race. That you associate a nation state directly with a race, is frankly racist. Maybe you should be canceled, Björn.
    - dang 6y ago
      We've banned this account for doing nationalistic and ideological flamewar and ignoring our requests to stop. Personal attacks aren't allowed either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - BobbyJo 6y ago
    Speculation? Yeah, sure. Baseless? Not really, considering the great firewall and all. Racism? Where?
    - kanox 6y ago
      > Racism? Where? Fascists famously accused foreigners of promoting "degeneracy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art. Parent poster used this term with the exact same meaning and intention.
      - edoo 6y ago
        100% wrong and quite an insulting accusation. I meant real degeneracy, promoted by fascist Marxists. Bad culture. Promoting self destructive behavior. Looking down on education, the sciences, logic, learning in general. Promoting hatred and division in society. Nice try.
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Yeah, when I saw my neece on TikTok I was feeling really bad. Most people don't see it, but I hate it to realize that she's being slowly influenced by hidden propaganda :(
- zelphirkalt 6y ago
  One problem is, that often you cannot easily tell people or explain to them how bad it is, because "all their friends do it too" and the network effect is particularly strong in environments like schools. You can try at least though, asking them, whether they want to know how it works.
- matsemann 6y ago
  Have you seen what people share on facebook? The toxicity on twitter? The conspiracies on youtube?
kalesh 6y ago
There is no such thing as ABSOLUTELY right. We don't even know what's actually going on at higher levels in the government. Why isn't Alibaba & AliExpress banned?
- swatkat 6y ago
  Are kids committing suicide while using Alibaba website? https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/bengaluru-wanting-to-get-a-feel-of-death-man-records-suicide-on-tiktok/articleshow/76274741.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/bengaluru... https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/people/story/tiktok-star-siya-kakkar-dies-by-suicide-at-16-in-delhi-1692636-2020-06-25 https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/people/story/tiktok-star...
  - kalesh 6y ago
    People have been committing suicides due to social media in General. It's nothing new. Nothing to do particularly with TikTok. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_suicide
  - econcon 6y ago
    Social media is polarising, if someone thinks their life is shitty - social media magnifies it several hundred times untill you've become very sure only your life suck and all people are having it easy other than you.
- shripadk 6y ago
  Alibaba and AliExpress aren't banned because Indians aren't involved as much in drop-shipping as the West is. And US has already banned ePacket. AliBaba and AliExpress will collapse on its own if the West doesn't lift ban on commercial shipping. There is a huge backlog right now with shipping time going through the roof. You need to have a reliable agent in China to get goods out of China. It is pretty terrible state of affairs. If you are part of any drop-shipping groups on Facebook you'll get to see how drop-shippers are having a hard time getting packages delivered to customers.
gtm1260 6y ago
I kind of agree, but 99% of the videos I see on FYP are just absolutely silly, hilarious content.
gazelleeatslion 6y ago
Is this regulated for US companies?
slim 6y ago
we, non americans, think facebook is doing everything you describe and even worse.
sniperjzp 6y ago
This is funny, can you elaborate how come a ranking algorithm is a national security threat? It reminds me of the time when Google/FB/Instagram/Twitter still worked in China, Chinese govt used the same excuse to ban big tech social platforms.
- kevincox 6y ago
  Propaganda is powerful. If China wanted to send a message to change public opinion around the world tweaking the recommendation algorithm to do that would be a very helpful tool.
- toxik 6y ago
  The CCP band western propaganda platforms, which Facebook etc could be said to be. Fine, I think any set of ideologies need propaganda, like every company needs advertisement. If you understand that, then surely you must see the symmetry in banning Tiktok etc?
- dingle_thunk 6y ago
  The great firewall should work both ways, otherwise it encourages more selective censorship.
StreamBright 6y ago
Same reason the EU should ban Facebook and Google right?
- suyash 6y ago
  It's like comparing Apples and Oranges.
- BobbyJo 6y ago
  I mean, if they feel like the US is a threat to their sovereignty, and may use the platforms to push public opinions that undermine their stability, yes. If not, then why bother? Governments may seem dumb and bureaucratic, but good ones tend to have some level of pragmatism.
mcs_ 6y ago
But, if a nation can be threatened by an application, a chat, or a social network, can the ban solve the problem?
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  The app is not the entire problem so banning it won't/doesn't have to solve the entire problem either.
jlmorton 6y ago
> there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. And who cares if they are? We live in an open society, and in the US, freedom of speech is a foundational principle. This is among the trade-offs you face when prioritizing absolute freedom of speech.
- rgrs 6y ago
  I care
- BobbyJo 6y ago
  Foreign propaganda broadcast and pushed by a hostile foreign government isn't protected speech. Not sure why anyone would need to say that out loud, but here we are. 2020, going hard.
  - kanox 6y ago
    This argument can be used to ban all foreign press. It's nonsense, but unfortunately common in 2020.
    - BobbyJo 6y ago
      Please tell me how that argument could be applied to the UK's press, or Canada's, or any country in the EU's, or Australia's...
      - guerrilla 6y ago
        What part are you missing? The hostile part? The EU and US are still in a trade war, a conflict over Nord Stream 2 as well as over Iranian sanctions in case you forgot. [1] [1] https://www.dw.com/en/trump-ouster-will-not-heal-us-ties-says-germanys-maas/a-53972932 https://www.dw.com/en/trump-ouster-will-not-heal-us-ties-say...
        BobbyJo 6y ago
        Those examples are stretching the meaning of hostile.
coliveira 6y ago
The same can be said of companies like FB and GOOG. They operate black boxes with little scrutiny from society.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  FB and GOOG don't have troops stationed on India's border.
  - pphysch 6y ago
    Neither does TikTok proper, and those two are in close & opaque cooperation with the US government.
    - kortilla 6y ago
      TikTok would be put out of business if it was critical of the head of communist party. Google/FB permit anti-Trump content and propagate articles against the administration without blowback. TikTok is bound to the CCP in a way that has no comparison in the west.
      - dade_ 6y ago
        They would have a new CEO at least: Cathay Pacific https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/business/cathay-pacific-ceo-rupert-hogg/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/business/cathay-pacific-ceo-r... HSBC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-hsbc-exclusive-idUSKCN1QF1IA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-hsbc-exclusive-idU...
      - pphysch 6y ago
        You're mistaking shallow Red/Blue political theatre for genuine (geo)political power struggles. If GOOG were to really challenge the supremacy of the US government, there would be swift consequences.
        kortilla 6y ago
learnstats2 6y ago
>As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box All platforms recommendation and ranking algos are ultimately a black box. Why is TikTok special here?
- mthoms 6y ago
  TikTok is controlled by an authoritarian dictatorship engaged in a war against Western/Democratic values and human rights.
  - mateus1 6y ago
    Many around of the world see the US also an authoritarian state with little regard for human rights.
    - verdverm 6y ago
      Many also ask the US for assistance and see it as a guiding light. A lot of people are upset about the visa changes, there's a reason for that, yes?
      - Tiltowait-- 6y ago
        Who??? Who sees the US as a "guiding light"? Nobody, that's who. I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news, but the US' reputation is in the toilet. Racism, murder, death. That's not a good model for the world. >A lot of people are upset about the visa changes, This is because the US exploited and ruined their countries, and they're desperate to get anywhere they can make some money to support their village. A single worker can support 40+ people on a single IT salary. Contrast this to selfish Americans who just blow the money on something stupid like a boat or a trip to Vegas.
      - dis-sys 6y ago
        puppet state is nothing new
    - mthoms 6y ago
pvelagal 6y ago
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce-legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduc...
john_ackerman 6y ago
I'm chinese and I'm glad the indian government is taking action before the US/Europe, which still haven't rstricted the spread of Chinese spyware. 1. Tiktok and wechat are bigger threats than huawei as they taken user generated data and biometric data to build a large surveillance network of not only chinese, but also folks living outside of the great fire wall. 2. The chinese government essentially bans the top 20 websites outside of china. Not seeking reciprocal treatment is the extension of clinton era illusion that somehow china will open up as they get richer. I unfortunately can't disclose details on zoom's infringement but hope yall can figure out what going on behind the scene
coopsmgoops 6y ago
The ranking algorithm is the least of anyone's worries in my opinion.
kanox 6y ago
> India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. This is just a lame attempt at economic warfare and "misinformation campaigns" is a very weak excuse. What concerns me the most is that in 2020 people are overwhelmingly in favor of governments and corporations controlling what their people watch and read and think.
- Zeebrommer 6y ago
  This is a consequence of Brexit and the election of Trump, democratic decisions that caught many people in power by surprise. Sophisticated use of social media platforms turned out to have a significant influence on public opinion. Although I agree that in principle everyone should be enabled to seek out their own information sources and form their own independent opinions, this is not what happens in the age of polarized sensationalist identity politics.
tjpnz 6y ago
What I fear is whether this data could be incorporated into the state facial recognition systems already well deployed throughout China. You're potentially helping the CCP in training a tool to aid in the violent suppression of ethnic minorities.
suyash 6y ago
US should follow suit.
ex3ndr 6y ago
I bet this is just a corrupted ban for promoting local app of friends of friends of some minister.
justicezyx 6y ago
Chinese immigrant in US here: I don't think it's a stretch to state the risk of tiktok being mass propaganda machine, from India's perspective. Additionally, I don't take this as a particular politically charged statement against China, as quite a few replies stated. The reason is that China and India are on a very delicate geopolitical environment. The history is long and ambiguous. The current rivalry is subtle and dangerous. You just cannot give any chance in this situation. After all, China do not have any foreign social network services anyway. There is no reason to gift the opponent an potential upper hand. The Pandora's box was formally opened in the Arab spring already. It was a well intended start, followed with an ugly development and messy prospect left for generations to suffer and struggle. Now the whole idea of social networking services as an actual helper of connecting people with different cultural background roughly reduces to nil. That really was a buffer. Lastly, I don't think it makes sense for any sovereign government to force their country's corporation to serve them directly. That would immediately destroy any chance of those organizations to expand beyond their home country. Someone might argue Chinese firms are OK to that because they had a big market already. That's a totally unreasonable imagination on Chinese business men's brain structure. I never encountered any such Chinese business man who believe loyalty to CCP is higher than their profit. Other argument is that Chinese law can coerce, but all the laws are saying the company ought to corporate when necessary for the security of the country. I cannot imagine any sane political personnel can convince anyone else that offensive propaganda in peace time is necessary for national security. At least I did not see any such behavior or even minor behavior with hint of such reasoning from past history.
ccktlmazeltov 6y ago
> it is a significant national securities threat come on...
29athrowaway 6y ago
A reddit user reverse engineered Tiktok and listed some of the information they collect and the extent to which they go to obfuscate their data exfiltration. https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news... See the top comment as the video has now been removed from YouTube.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  ^ Someone just posted this link and got 100 points. I got downvoted. Feels bad man.
Reason077 6y ago
> "India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat." I'm surprised, actually, that Trump hasn't expressed a desire ban TikTok. Especially after they trolled him so badly at that Tulsa rally! He's managed to ban Huawei over (unproven and strenuously denied) security issues. Yet TikTok has direct influence over something much more important than 5G radio equipment: the hearts and minds of a generation of American children!
est 6y ago
Well technically China did it first. China banned tons of foreign apps or websites because "significant national securities threat"
- moreorless 6y ago
  In the case of Facebook being banned, there is precedence for that. https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/23/facebook-banned-in-china-how-it-makes-money-there.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/23/facebook-banned-in...
- dis-sys 6y ago
  foreign apps or websites? 99.9% of them are US apps and websites. you don't need to ban india apps in China as I've never heard any of them, you don't need to ban india website as the india infrastructure won't be able to serve requests from a country like China anyway.
  - blocked_again 6y ago
    Serving large number of requests is not an unsolved problem which only China has monopoly on. You just spin up more servers in the cloud as you get more and more users. Cloud platforms like AWS, Google Cloud and technologies like Kubernetes, Docker etc has made the job way too easy. Anyway, India's hotstar holds the world record of maximum number of consecutive users watching a live stream. https://gadgets.ndtv.com/entertainment/news/hotstar-world-record-25-3-million-viewers-icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-india-new-zealand-semi-final-ma-2069996 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/entertainment/news/hotstar-world-re... https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/12/hotstar-disneys-indian-streaming-service-sets-new-global-record-for-live-viewership/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/12/hotstar-disneys-indian-str...
ascotan 6y ago
I doubt they can audit close source software.
billfruit 6y ago
But I doubt any due process was done before the ban, if any and concrete proof of wrongdoing is established before doing such things. Most of the bigger app developers will surely goto court. If any this sounds like a propaganda move aimed at giving the people a feeling that the government has done something about it. Some of these may relaunched as a web service, some may relaunch under a different branding, there are any number of things the app makers can legitimately do to skirt around this. Using summary executive powers to do such is a rather undemocratic move, and which time and again this Indian Government has indicated it has no qualms of using. This is a politically motivated move, where as it should not be. If there was established wrongdoing then ban the apps, not because it is politically convenient to do it.
Razengan 6y ago
> India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As opposed to Skype, Facebook, WhatsApp, Snapchat and all the others?
- z9e 6y ago
  The difference being TikTok is operated by India’s adversary.
KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
Honestly, I don't see the difference between TikTok and other social media apps and the old media. Why not ban Hollywood, the Beatles, and McDonald's then? Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth?
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Yes.
- GuiA 6y ago
  > Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth? Many countries have broadcast laws around a maximum amount of foreign programming (for one example amongst many, private French radios have to play French music for at least 40% of their programming).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- grecy 6y ago
  The difference is that China = bad and America = good.
zkid18 6y ago
All RS algorithms follows non-trivial logic based on the user’s feedback. They constantly adapt and upgraded. You can add some fuzzy-rules based on your moderation principles — remove porn, videos about flat earth, abusive content, and etc. But the core algorithm hard for interpreting. Letting government step into this space creates an alternative form of censorship. I would rather ask all content platforms for transparent open-sourced moderation rules. At the meantime, TikTok has a remarkable traction that put in a row of the greatest product of the decade. Previously ByteDance tried to move HQ away from China, but I now I guess they might even consider selling their product. I guess it is more political decision rather than Indian government really cares about data security. Seems that US and specifically Facebook become the absolute winner in India.
gbraad 6y ago
> At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results. Can we do the same for YouTube ?!
mlang23 6y ago
Well, the same applies to FaceBook, just to name one prominent example. Or Google, for that matter.
ekianjo 6y ago
Wasn't TikTok also caught intercepting the clipboard contents of the phones on which it was installed? Not sure about malware, but it could certainly be qualified as spyware if it actually does that.
esafwan 6y ago
This looks mostly like gimmick PR stunt to cover the recent setback India had with China in the border. For example see this news from a channel that supports govt. shorturl.at/acjoM This is not a comedy show, its a real prime time new show. If India was serious about taking action it would have done something about the Chinese branded phone and Chinese infra project. All the largest phone brands in India are chinese. Same is true for Tv's. All unicorn startups in the country has considerable chinese interest. This ban carefully stays away from all apps, businesses and things that could really invite a response from China. And it worked. As in the link above, Modi's followed have taken the bait. They are happy and all over social media celebrating this as a fitting reply for the soldiers life lost in the border.
jkingsbery 6y ago
My reading of the article is that it has a lot more to do with the border clash with China that killed 20 Indian soldiers with more believed to be captured (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-border-clash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-b...) and a subsequent desire to distance themselves from Chinese goods and services than it has to do with algorithmic transparency.
Nginx487 6y ago
I hope other countries follow this absolutely wise decision. China will not hesitate to use any measures for weakening national security of countries it believes to be its enemies
happppy 6y ago
like fb, youtube, twitter, linkedIn algos are audited. Just because tiktok is Chinese app, audit it?? what kind of hypocrisy is this.

joshribakoff 6y ago

There is no guarantee any app is not doing this, should we ban all apps?

ianleeclark 6y ago

Are YouTube algorithms open? I don't really see a difference here. Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, but I don't see why. They're both going to react to material stimuli to increase their standings.

azinman2 6y ago
It’s about allies versus active enemies. There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently.
- seamyb88 6y ago
  Ah right. Because the U.S. is never involved in war, it's a different story for youtube etc...
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  So it's just opportunism, then? Condemn the other; refuse reflection. Or am I misunderstanding you?
  - azinman2 6y ago
    I can’t say what India’s motivation is for sure. Maybe there’s a credible threat in a way that Facebook isn’t. Maybe it’s just anti-Chinese fervor. But saying anything outside of India should be treated the same is not taking into account geo-politics and individual country’s behaviors.
    - josephv 6y ago
      Coordination with the US means jobs and economic opportunity for both sides. Coordination with China means gunfights and border tension. It's pretty simple if you don't try to extrapolate everything to logical extrems. India and US is ally, India and China is rival. Full stop, it ends there. KISS
    - petre 6y ago
      We live in interesting times, ripe for manipulation and propaganda, both if which China and Russia have spread in the EU during the last months. India's ban is completely warranted. The fact that they also have a border dispute with China only makes things worse. I'd rather they ban a few apps than escalation and war.
  - bobthepanda 6y ago
    It's about harm and risk reduction. All other things held equal, you would expect your enemies to be doing more to undermine you than your allies would.
  - saiya-jin 6y ago
    Using opportunity to actually perform a good thing for privacy (tiktok at least was found snooping all it can from users phones, not sure about the rest but given how chinese run things that would be expected). No tear will be shed for those apps, regardless from which country they come from (I know this is very targeted due to recent tensions, but its still a step in the right direction re privacy)
- ra7 6y ago
  > There are shootouts on a regular basis between India and China, and they’ve intensified recently. There are no "shootouts". There are standoffs sometimes (think once a year if you want to define regularity) due to the loosely demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC) between India and China. It's usually a melee. Even the recent escalated incident wasn't a shootout. There are agreements between Indian and Chinese governments that prevent usage of firearms in standoffs like these.
  - stickfigure 6y ago
    I agree that "shootouts" is the wrong word, but "melee" doesn't quite capture the gruesomeness of human beings beating each other to death with spiked clubs.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    20 Indian soldiers died just two weeks ago: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/asia/china-india-border-clash-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/16/asia/china-india-border-clash...
    - ra7 6y ago
      Yes, I'm aware of the news. It still wasn't due to a "shootout". > What’s happening along the Himalayan border is an unusual kind of warfare. As in the brawls last month, Chinese and Indian soldiers fought fiercely without firing a shot — at least that’s what officials on both sides contend. They say the soldiers followed their de facto border code not to use firearms and went at each other with fists, rocks and wooden clubs, some possibly studded with nails or wrapped in barbed wire. From https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-border-clash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-b...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jankassens 6y ago
If India (or any other country for that matter) would be in an armed conflict with the US, they would probably also consider banning various US controlled services.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  I asked about the algorithm thing--that's what I'm curious about. Where specifically does that belief end.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    I'd guess that double-standards are inevitable and desired when there is an armed conflict between nations. If Indian government sees no harm in US apps whilst banning Chinese apps, this is the definition of diplomatic pressure. Asymmetry is the tool used to apply this pressure. Your point is valid - we have no way to know Facebook algorithms and it is a blackbox, but this isn't supposed to be a symmetric comparison for aforementioned reasons.
- pvelagal 6y ago
  China is not in armed conflict with US , why does it ban every app that civilized world uses ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
  - dis-sys 6y ago
    protectionism.
saltedonion 6y ago
You have a good point. But TikTok is much more risky, and as as such requires much more scrutiny given existing body of knowledge between how chinese social media / chat companies such as WeChat enforce government censorship and aid in propagating misinformation. This might be a shock to most people in the western world, but if you go on almost ANY news website in china, the headline news is dedicated to government propaganda. The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately. Nearly all sizable firms have a party secretary that is involved in board level decisions, and steps in when things get political. You can ponder who has the final say.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > The reality is that Chinese firms and government operates together intimately No, I get this, but here's the thing: YouTube and, more specifically, it's advertisers do everything that you're accusing China of. There are material consequences if YouTube doesn't keep in line. What this means is that a status quo that pleases advertisers will be maintained. It's every bit propaganda as dropping leaflets, but you can't point out a boogeyman pulling the strings.
  - pyuser583 6y ago
    The concern is the coordination between Chinese foreign affairs/security services and the commercial sector. For US-based firms, that’s simply not the case. Yes, YouTube needs to make sure Nike is happy. But Nike didn’t just kill two dozen Indian soldiers. Certainly there’s privacy related concerns with US companies - as with Chinese companies. But nobody had accused the DoD of manipulating YouTube search rankings. If the DoD wants to conduct a YouTube propaganda campaign, they can buy advertising like everybody else.
    - RobertoG 6y ago
      I don't know, I still remember how, in a poll before the invasion of Iraq, a majority of Americans though that Saddam Hussein was connected to the 11S attacks.
no_wizard 6y ago
Biggest difference is motives, as long as we are making the assumption you mean private corporations that aren’t proxies for their respective government(s) A private company will optimize profit, all things being equal. Sometimes this means it’s product/platform can be used to disseminate possibly dangerous information, but it also can be regulated in response. Another government? Not so easy Only way to really assert influence is through a much more narrow and limited scope like diplomacy, economic sanction, war, or otherwise influence the state/affairs of the country through target regulations like the ones mentioned in the article
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > Sometimes this means it’s product/platform can be used to disseminate possibly dangerous information, but it also can be regulated in response. I don't think this is true specifically in the case of America. Who are you going to get to actually grapple that beast of a multi national? Yeah, lots of people talk about it, but politics ultimately requires a degree of consensus. When you have investors calling up their representatives saying they will donate to their opponent next election or they will move jobs out of the area, politicians are going to start falling off. Oh, these politicians are all probably invested in these companies to some degree, or maybe they rent apartments to their workers. There's also the gridlock issue that likely can't be resolved unless we start adding states, so legislation will be hard there. Companies like alphabet and Facebook are the culmination of the last 40 years of politics in America.
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    Never intended for this to mean it was easy or anything. As you noted already it isn’t always. However this also admits it can be done as I mentioned too. You can’t pass legislation that makes another government open itself up to transparency though. That’s the fundamental difference
    - ianleeclark 6y ago
      > However this also admits it can be done as I mentioned too. That wasn't the intention
StreamBright 6y ago
Not to mention state sponsored private firm, being private is just optics.
dathinab 6y ago
Good point. But YouTube is not controlled by an authoritarian fascist-like government which has a world view in direct opposition to what you could refer handwaveingly as "western" and is currently pushing to become the dominant power in the world. If you furthermore consider how bad the "western world" (mainly Britten and the East India Company) had treated it in the past, some aspects of the Chinese culture and the current Goverment direction western countries expecting any fair or reasonable treatment once china succeeded to become the worlds dominant power is kinda a sad joke.
- colordrops 6y ago
  YouTube isn't controlled by an authoritarian fascist-like government - it is run by the fascist-lite corporate oligarchy which runs the US. The US may not be as bad as china in some ways but that doesn't absolve them from responsibility.
  - banachtarski 6y ago
    Trying to draw a parallel between Google and a country that literally tortures and murders its citizens for "unsanctioned beliefs" is disingenuous. Cut the bullshit.
    - colordrops 6y ago
      Ignorance of US history of endless human rights abuses (including torture) both domestic and foreign by the US is not an excuse for being condescending and overly confident on an internet forum.
      - banachtarski 6y ago
        Let's talk about modern day since that's the topic at hand. Who was the last US citizen you know of to be arrested, detained, and killed for voicing opposition to the way the government is run. I'm not saying the US government is perfect (especially in this time, far from it), I'm just saying the comparison isn't remotely apropos. I would say I have the "correct" level of confidence in this regard.
mtgp1000 6y ago
You don't see a difference between an ideological party which interns millions of people by ethnicity (among other glaring issues), and a corporation seeking profits from a video platform?
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  On the question of black box algorithms, no because it's not relevant.
  - seemack 6y ago
    I would think that the reputation of the creator becomes even more critical when considering a black box algorithm.
lala26in 6y ago
3/5 board of directors of ByteDance that owns TikTok are western.
hyko 6y ago
Because YouTube doesn’t have nuclear weapons and a plan to invade western allies?
Bayart 6y ago
YT has a legal framework that gives it protection to an extent from government interference, especially where it touches upon freedom of speech. Whether they want to use it or not is another question. But the Party can just put officials in the Douyin (TikTok) offices and ask for any encryption key without having to divulge anything and without the company having any recourse. This in complete legality. Large corporations becoming the end point for debate is a real problem, but I don't think it really overlaps with public/private collusion (or the lack of true private in China's case).
thuruv 6y ago
Politics does. That's the difference. Acting on above is solely depends on political bias instead of a concrete notice. No official research conducted and released stating the harm about the apps, right?
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
Let's be honest here; if India's relations with USA had soured to the same degree as with PRC, Youtube would be the one getting banned.
- suyash 6y ago
  USA and India are friends unlike CCP which can't be trusted by anyone.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    No one in the entire world with half a brain trusts the US, or any state for that matter. Too much backstabbing. Ask the Kurds.
slowmovintarget 6y ago
TikTok apps add a vector for arbitrary code download and execution. What "algorithm" you get would seem to depend on what they'd like to run on your device that day.
seebetter 6y ago
The Chinese State is based on Marxism-Leninism and wants to dominate the world. There is a difference in that and any other country that acknowledges natural rights. If you believe rights are innate, then you can’t openly tolerate a state that denies them. I often think what would California look like if it had the laws of Texas. Or what would China look like if it had the structure and motivations of Nevada? Both have Elon Musk and gambling.
cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
China is a special case because they are among the very few number of countries in the world where the government openly controls the media and the private companies. A U.S. company like Twitter even bans the U.S. president's posts on their platform, and so does Facebook. Something like that is impossible in China as whoever does that will instantly get shut down. Think about the implication of this. This means you have to assume that any Chinese tech company will have to comply when the government tells them to spread some propaganda through their media. This is what has been called in a science fiction as "information warfare", and it can be even more catastrophic than a real war, but I don't think most people realize this because they've never seen one before. What's even scarier is that even as this is happening, nobody knows this is happening, which is worse than a war because, unlike a physical war where everything is visible, one country can "attack" another country without anyone else realizing, causing a huge damage to their economy.
- concordDance 6y ago
  Forget the economy. The damage to social infrastructure and trust is far more serious. Groups violently turning on eachother, families splitting over political divides, lynchings... these matter a lot more than whether people have nice cars.
trekrich 6y ago
hmm google or the ccp. Take your pick!
everdrive 6y ago
> Nation state vs. private corporation is different on paper, A nation state and a company are different in substance as well. I am sympathetic to the idea that companies (in America) can do more to curtail your freedoms. But, this is only true because of our system of government. In principle, a government can do much more than a company to curtail your freedoms. In practice, this is often less true. (although if you bump into eminent domain, or similar laws, then the government is much more threatening to you.) We don't have to look far for this theoretical: the Chinese government rounds up people and puts them in camps, and disappears people for having the wrong opinions.
SllX 6y ago
Nation states have military, intelligence, diplomacy and police corps. They reserve the power to stop, detain, arrest, jail, try, sentence, imprison, and kill. That’s why how we go about those things is a Big Deal, and why we have so many rules about who can go about it, how, under what circumstances, what the laws are that they’re enforcing, what the processes and procedures are for enforcement and how guilt is determined. Corporations as a rule, and there have been exceptions, but as a rule have none of those powers. Theoretically the worst crimes they’re going to commit are fraudulent in nature and crimes of negligence. They’re not just a separate org chart ultimately serving as a private arm of the State with its own private rules that it self-enforces; they’re different beasts entirely. The problem with PRC-based corporations is that they muddy the waters entirely between what is private and public. As far as the PRC is concerned, all private life is subject to the State and should serve the interests of the State. Google and Facebook and your favorite café or tea house can and do have interests that lie entirely outside of the State and are free to pursue them. That is the difference between a free society and an authoritarian State.
- xwolfi 6y ago
  I think you forget a detail. Nation state, or any state, are sovereign. If the national community agrees on something, it's all that matter. We don't have to abide by other countries standards on everything especially if we dont like it. Im thinking as a French I had to fight a lot with free speech absolutists abroad, while at home we're quite okay with selective censorship... it sounds scary to an American sometimes, but hell we dont care :D
  - SllX 6y ago
    We can respect another nation’s sovereignty without respecting their authoritarianism. I very much believe we should be disrespecting the hell out of authoritarian States, much more than we do so now because authoritarianism doesn’t stop at the borders, it stops at the practical limit that a State can enforce its laws which is why when the NBA was quite literally kowtowing to the PRC, we had a problem with that. PRC corporations have a history of behaving in a mistrustful manner, combined with their obligations to the PRC State which treats its citizens as subjects, and sometimes not even its citizens, but anybody of Chinese descent, PRC corporations absolutely should be singled out and treated with mistrust. Our corporations have the obligation to turn a profit for their shareholders and sometimes that even means entering into a contract with the government, but theirs also have the obligation to advance the interests of the State. Dual mandates, even when not initially at odds with each other, often eventually come into conflict with each other, and State-owned or controlled corporations often don’t even have the profit incentive but are instead subject to politics. See also: the American corporations Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for examples of why they’re a bad idea, although their enterprises are domestic. This is off topic but since you brought it up, we’re not the free speech absolutists that we believe we are. What we took issue with specifically was the idea of a central government regulating speech, assembly, the press and the establishment of churches. We still had established churches for quite some time, but they were governed by the States, not the United States. Let me quote you the First Amendment: > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Everything you really need to know is in the first five words. It’s a prohibition on Congress, not a grant of rights, and this would later come to be incorporated against the States as well such that their legislatures have the same restrictions. The reason this amendment exists at all was 1. To quell dissent from the Anti-Federalists which campaigned against the Constitution in the ratification conventions and 2. Because then and now, we’re a nation of dissenters. Many of the people that migrated from Europe to the United States were religious dissenters or penal colonists living in exile. I don’t know to what degree you studied the Huguenots in French history, but they made a few attempts to establish themselves, each time French politics seeking their resupply attempts after the initial landing, before receiving a land grant in what is now Brooklyn, and then was part of the New Netherlands.
rossjudson 6y ago
I mean, they both are made of people, right? And those people have brains that they use, right? And brains are made of molecules, right? At the end of the day it's all just molecules reacting to stimuli, and basically there's no difference. Because they are molecules.
zahreeley 6y ago
because China is enemy and America is friend.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
NicoJuicy 6y ago
Xi is censoring protests on their platforms, but it's clear that Trump can't. That's a clear proof of difference.
john4532452 6y ago
On YouTube at least the user has the option to search and subscribe the videos, there by controlling what is shown, it is not the same with TikTok
Nginx487 6y ago
There are no private companies in China, all of the corporate entities directly or indirectly depend on CCP, which uses every opportunity to damage national security of its enemies.

zacharytelschow 6y ago

> As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box, there is no guarantee that [insert platform here] isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mrlala 6y ago

I was skeptical about this, but I think they are surely are. I installed tiktok just maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.. it was kind of fun at first and was amused by some stuff on there. What it was showing me I thought was very relevant to prior stuff I had seen in some regard (just the type of humor) so I was kind of impressed. Then all the sudden it started showing me all this pro-Trump/pro-religion/antiBLM stuff. And look, a platform like this and the age demographic the amount of pro-trump & pro-religion stuff is TINY. The amount that was coming up was baffling. And it would just be inserted at the weirdest times, where it honestly felt like I was being targeted to see this stuff. I'm not one to be a conspiracy nut at all, but there were some flags hitting in my head that something weird was going on.. so I promptly uninstalled. Honestly it's too bad, I think tiktok is a very unique thing, and seemed to fill some type of space where people just want to create stupid little videos that either say a little message or are just funny. But there's something weird going on.

stevens32 6y ago
I don't think there's any mystery here, I also started seeing pro-Trump posts but that's because I'd watched other posts. If you start swiping immediately on those videos, they stop showing up. The algorithm doesn't care if you watched a video because you were enjoying it or were upset but couldn't turn away (or if you left a comment to support the content or argue with the creator). They tune it to glue your eyeball to the screen.
- mrlala 6y ago
  I wouldn't watch them though, I was flipping away pretty quick. Hard to explain exactly, just saying that it really seemed unusual. Again it was also the amount that were coming up. I watched a descent amount of BLM related videos a few nights.. like, a lot. Then a few insane trump ones which maybe I watch a few moments but keep swiping away, only to be suggested more Trump and less BLM? Anyway- I understand it's conjecture and hard to say what I was seeing.. just seemed off, and it's pretty easy to jump to the conclusion that it was attempting to manipulate me.
hnal943 6y ago

bigpumpkin 6y ago

You are going to use the government to audit black box algos?

numpad0 6y ago

Since this is HN, what’s the easiest way to roll your own brainwashing machine like Facebook or TikTok? I mean isn’t it going to be fun to plant your own ideas on people...

huhnmonster 6y ago
Going from what currently seems to be popular: huge botnets that carefully try to curate "real" users from random accounts. Rolling your own (Network that is, like FB or TikTok) seems pretty unlikely regarding initial investments, user base etc.
- luckylion 6y ago
  I wonder what's stopping them. Initial investments is likely an issue for small, poor countries, but it can't be an issue for a country like India or Saudi Arabia, and the user base can be "convinced" to use the domestic thing by doing what India does: block foreign services. It seems more sustainable and much easier to work with if you have your own network, and you don't rely on US-services looking away / Twitter tolerating your stuff.
  - huhnmonster 6y ago
    I totally agree with you there, I was arguing from the view of a bad actor, not necessarily a government. For a bad actor, the cost-reward looks pretty low (if we assume a high initial investment like a couple hundred million dollars to approach our goal of data collection in a shorter timeframe), but for a government that is probably totally doable.
  - puranjay 6y ago
    Will never happen because Indian governments are stuck in an unceasing bureaucratic quagmire. A tech solution, especially one that has to be culturally relevant and edgy to appeal to young people is absolutely beyond the scope of the Indian government machinery.
  - est31 6y ago

mytailorisrich 6y ago

Covid-19 is biting extremely hard in India. Handling has been very poor so far. Stroking nationalism and pointing at foreign enemies in hard times is a tried and tested tactic.

seshagiric 6y ago
That's not true in this case. There is continued aggression by China, infringing into India borders. It would be stupid of Indian govt. not to react.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Exactly what I'm saying. A tried and tested tactic that works well. And in fact I think China is playing a similar game, and the Chinese public buys it in the same way. But it is a dangerous game because it can get out of hands. I think both sides know it and they don't want things to escalate. We need to see how the pandemic develops and hits both countries and their economies. I'm more worried about the Indian side at the moment because the pandemic situation seems out of hands and deteriorating fast there.
  - rgrs 6y ago
    And your proposed solution is?
decon2 6y ago
I agree. Similar to using terrorist attacks to stoke nationalist feelings and distract from demonetization
- thowme245 6y ago
  There is no Chinese aggression on the Indian border, they are not interning anyone, China is not a police state. It's all in people's dreams.
hnal943 6y ago

akshaybhalotia 6y ago

Very interesting. I would like to know more about this thought. Is the problem, let's say, with: - the country of origin, so if this was the exact same app from US it would have been less harmful, or, - the amount of time people spend on it, so if people spent time on something like facebook it would have been less harmful?

giancarlostoro 6y ago
The amount of data they harvest off the app is scary, but I wish we'd be just as strict with Google over it. It's like the industry is slowly moving towards limiting these things, or making this type of spying much more covert as new things become exposed like the clipboard thing that TikTok does on iOS I can only imagine it's just as bad on Android, to the point where it should be a permission on a per app basis.
kevincox 6y ago
I think it is the sum of the two. They don't want the Chinese government to have that much influence over their population. It is an extreme move, but I see the logic behind it.

gdubs 6y ago

Just from a more farcical standpoint, the idea of one country attacking another via dance trends feels like a page out of Zoolander.

stevens32 6y ago
This is a world I want to live in. Where do I sign up?

moscovium 6y ago

China bad

JungleGymSam 6y ago
Yes. That's a given.
- puranjay 6y ago
  I think the poster was saying that sarcastically - a variation of the "Orange Man Bad" meme

edoo 6y ago

I also bet the Chinese version of TikTok, if it is even allowed in their country, has a completely different content moderation system. They are more than likely promoting degeneracy in our country while promoting their own ideals at home.

bjourne 6y ago
You are spreading baseless, racist speculation.
- edoo 6y ago
  China is a shithole fascist country of oppression and slavery, not a race. That you associate a nation state directly with a race, is frankly racist. Maybe you should be canceled, Björn.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for doing nationalistic and ideological flamewar and ignoring our requests to stop. Personal attacks aren't allowed either. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- BobbyJo 6y ago
  Speculation? Yeah, sure. Baseless? Not really, considering the great firewall and all. Racism? Where?
  - kanox 6y ago
    > Racism? Where? Fascists famously accused foreigners of promoting "degeneracy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art. Parent poster used this term with the exact same meaning and intention.
    - edoo 6y ago
      100% wrong and quite an insulting accusation. I meant real degeneracy, promoted by fascist Marxists. Bad culture. Promoting self destructive behavior. Looking down on education, the sciences, logic, learning in general. Promoting hatred and division in society. Nice try.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Yeah, when I saw my neece on TikTok I was feeling really bad. Most people don't see it, but I hate it to realize that she's being slowly influenced by hidden propaganda :(

zelphirkalt 6y ago
One problem is, that often you cannot easily tell people or explain to them how bad it is, because "all their friends do it too" and the network effect is particularly strong in environments like schools. You can try at least though, asking them, whether they want to know how it works.
matsemann 6y ago
Have you seen what people share on facebook? The toxicity on twitter? The conspiracies on youtube?

kalesh 6y ago

There is no such thing as ABSOLUTELY right. We don't even know what's actually going on at higher levels in the government. Why isn't Alibaba & AliExpress banned?

swatkat 6y ago
Are kids committing suicide while using Alibaba website? https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/bengaluru-wanting-to-get-a-feel-of-death-man-records-suicide-on-tiktok/articleshow/76274741.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/bengaluru... https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/people/story/tiktok-star-siya-kakkar-dies-by-suicide-at-16-in-delhi-1692636-2020-06-25 https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/people/story/tiktok-star...
- kalesh 6y ago
  People have been committing suicides due to social media in General. It's nothing new. Nothing to do particularly with TikTok. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media_and_suicide
- econcon 6y ago
  Social media is polarising, if someone thinks their life is shitty - social media magnifies it several hundred times untill you've become very sure only your life suck and all people are having it easy other than you.
shripadk 6y ago
Alibaba and AliExpress aren't banned because Indians aren't involved as much in drop-shipping as the West is. And US has already banned ePacket. AliBaba and AliExpress will collapse on its own if the West doesn't lift ban on commercial shipping. There is a huge backlog right now with shipping time going through the roof. You need to have a reliable agent in China to get goods out of China. It is pretty terrible state of affairs. If you are part of any drop-shipping groups on Facebook you'll get to see how drop-shippers are having a hard time getting packages delivered to customers.

gtm1260 6y ago

I kind of agree, but 99% of the videos I see on FYP are just absolutely silly, hilarious content.

gazelleeatslion 6y ago

Is this regulated for US companies?

slim 6y ago

we, non americans, think facebook is doing everything you describe and even worse.

sniperjzp 6y ago

This is funny, can you elaborate how come a ranking algorithm is a national security threat? It reminds me of the time when Google/FB/Instagram/Twitter still worked in China, Chinese govt used the same excuse to ban big tech social platforms.

kevincox 6y ago
Propaganda is powerful. If China wanted to send a message to change public opinion around the world tweaking the recommendation algorithm to do that would be a very helpful tool.
toxik 6y ago
The CCP band western propaganda platforms, which Facebook etc could be said to be. Fine, I think any set of ideologies need propaganda, like every company needs advertisement. If you understand that, then surely you must see the symmetry in banning Tiktok etc?
dingle_thunk 6y ago
The great firewall should work both ways, otherwise it encourages more selective censorship.

StreamBright 6y ago

Same reason the EU should ban Facebook and Google right?

suyash 6y ago
It's like comparing Apples and Oranges.
BobbyJo 6y ago
I mean, if they feel like the US is a threat to their sovereignty, and may use the platforms to push public opinions that undermine their stability, yes. If not, then why bother? Governments may seem dumb and bureaucratic, but good ones tend to have some level of pragmatism.

mcs_ 6y ago

But, if a nation can be threatened by an application, a chat, or a social network, can the ban solve the problem?

noisy_boy 6y ago
The app is not the entire problem so banning it won't/doesn't have to solve the entire problem either.

jlmorton 6y ago

> there is no guarantee that China isn’t conducting misinformation campaigns via the platform. And who cares if they are? We live in an open society, and in the US, freedom of speech is a foundational principle. This is among the trade-offs you face when prioritizing absolute freedom of speech.

rgrs 6y ago
I care
BobbyJo 6y ago
Foreign propaganda broadcast and pushed by a hostile foreign government isn't protected speech. Not sure why anyone would need to say that out loud, but here we are. 2020, going hard.
- kanox 6y ago
  This argument can be used to ban all foreign press. It's nonsense, but unfortunately common in 2020.
  - BobbyJo 6y ago
    Please tell me how that argument could be applied to the UK's press, or Canada's, or any country in the EU's, or Australia's...
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      What part are you missing? The hostile part? The EU and US are still in a trade war, a conflict over Nord Stream 2 as well as over Iranian sanctions in case you forgot. [1] [1] https://www.dw.com/en/trump-ouster-will-not-heal-us-ties-says-germanys-maas/a-53972932 https://www.dw.com/en/trump-ouster-will-not-heal-us-ties-say...
      - BobbyJo 6y ago
        Those examples are stretching the meaning of hostile.

coliveira 6y ago

The same can be said of companies like FB and GOOG. They operate black boxes with little scrutiny from society.

reaperducer 6y ago
FB and GOOG don't have troops stationed on India's border.
- pphysch 6y ago
  Neither does TikTok proper, and those two are in close & opaque cooperation with the US government.
  - kortilla 6y ago
    TikTok would be put out of business if it was critical of the head of communist party. Google/FB permit anti-Trump content and propagate articles against the administration without blowback. TikTok is bound to the CCP in a way that has no comparison in the west.
    - dade_ 6y ago
      They would have a new CEO at least: Cathay Pacific https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/business/cathay-pacific-ceo-rupert-hogg/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/business/cathay-pacific-ceo-r... HSBC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-hsbc-exclusive-idUSKCN1QF1IA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-hsbc-exclusive-idU...
    - pphysch 6y ago
      You're mistaking shallow Red/Blue political theatre for genuine (geo)political power struggles. If GOOG were to really challenge the supremacy of the US government, there would be swift consequences.
      - kortilla 6y ago

learnstats2 6y ago

>As long as the platforms recommendation and ranking algos are a black box All platforms recommendation and ranking algos are ultimately a black box. Why is TikTok special here?

mthoms 6y ago
TikTok is controlled by an authoritarian dictatorship engaged in a war against Western/Democratic values and human rights.
- mateus1 6y ago
  Many around of the world see the US also an authoritarian state with little regard for human rights.
  - verdverm 6y ago
    Many also ask the US for assistance and see it as a guiding light. A lot of people are upset about the visa changes, there's a reason for that, yes?
    - Tiltowait-- 6y ago
      Who??? Who sees the US as a "guiding light"? Nobody, that's who. I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news, but the US' reputation is in the toilet. Racism, murder, death. That's not a good model for the world. >A lot of people are upset about the visa changes, This is because the US exploited and ruined their countries, and they're desperate to get anywhere they can make some money to support their village. A single worker can support 40+ people on a single IT salary. Contrast this to selfish Americans who just blow the money on something stupid like a boat or a trip to Vegas.
    - dis-sys 6y ago
      puppet state is nothing new
  - mthoms 6y ago

pvelagal 6y ago

https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduce-legislation-ban-tiktok-government-devices https://www.hawley.senate.gov/senators-hawley-scott-introduc...

john_ackerman 6y ago

I'm chinese and I'm glad the indian government is taking action before the US/Europe, which still haven't rstricted the spread of Chinese spyware. 1. Tiktok and wechat are bigger threats than huawei as they taken user generated data and biometric data to build a large surveillance network of not only chinese, but also folks living outside of the great fire wall. 2. The chinese government essentially bans the top 20 websites outside of china. Not seeking reciprocal treatment is the extension of clinton era illusion that somehow china will open up as they get richer. I unfortunately can't disclose details on zoom's infringement but hope yall can figure out what going on behind the scene

coopsmgoops 6y ago

The ranking algorithm is the least of anyone's worries in my opinion.

kanox 6y ago

> India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. This is just a lame attempt at economic warfare and "misinformation campaigns" is a very weak excuse. What concerns me the most is that in 2020 people are overwhelmingly in favor of governments and corporations controlling what their people watch and read and think.

Zeebrommer 6y ago
This is a consequence of Brexit and the election of Trump, democratic decisions that caught many people in power by surprise. Sophisticated use of social media platforms turned out to have a significant influence on public opinion. Although I agree that in principle everyone should be enabled to seek out their own information sources and form their own independent opinions, this is not what happens in the age of polarized sensationalist identity politics.

tjpnz 6y ago

What I fear is whether this data could be incorporated into the state facial recognition systems already well deployed throughout China. You're potentially helping the CCP in training a tool to aid in the violent suppression of ethnic minorities.

suyash 6y ago

US should follow suit.

ex3ndr 6y ago

I bet this is just a corrupted ban for promoting local app of friends of friends of some minister.

justicezyx 6y ago

Chinese immigrant in US here: I don't think it's a stretch to state the risk of tiktok being mass propaganda machine, from India's perspective. Additionally, I don't take this as a particular politically charged statement against China, as quite a few replies stated. The reason is that China and India are on a very delicate geopolitical environment. The history is long and ambiguous. The current rivalry is subtle and dangerous. You just cannot give any chance in this situation. After all, China do not have any foreign social network services anyway. There is no reason to gift the opponent an potential upper hand. The Pandora's box was formally opened in the Arab spring already. It was a well intended start, followed with an ugly development and messy prospect left for generations to suffer and struggle. Now the whole idea of social networking services as an actual helper of connecting people with different cultural background roughly reduces to nil. That really was a buffer. Lastly, I don't think it makes sense for any sovereign government to force their country's corporation to serve them directly. That would immediately destroy any chance of those organizations to expand beyond their home country. Someone might argue Chinese firms are OK to that because they had a big market already. That's a totally unreasonable imagination on Chinese business men's brain structure. I never encountered any such Chinese business man who believe loyalty to CCP is higher than their profit. Other argument is that Chinese law can coerce, but all the laws are saying the company ought to corporate when necessary for the security of the country. I cannot imagine any sane political personnel can convince anyone else that offensive propaganda in peace time is necessary for national security. At least I did not see any such behavior or even minor behavior with hint of such reasoning from past history.

ccktlmazeltov 6y ago

> it is a significant national securities threat come on...

29athrowaway 6y ago

A reddit user reverse engineered Tiktok and listed some of the information they collect and the extent to which they go to obfuscate their data exfiltration. https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news... See the top comment as the video has now been removed from YouTube.

29athrowaway 6y ago
^ Someone just posted this link and got 100 points. I got downvoted. Feels bad man.

Reason077 6y ago

> "India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat." I'm surprised, actually, that Trump hasn't expressed a desire ban TikTok. Especially after they trolled him so badly at that Tulsa rally! He's managed to ban Huawei over (unproven and strenuously denied) security issues. Yet TikTok has direct influence over something much more important than 5G radio equipment: the hearts and minds of a generation of American children!

est 6y ago

Well technically China did it first. China banned tons of foreign apps or websites because "significant national securities threat"

moreorless 6y ago
In the case of Facebook being banned, there is precedence for that. https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/23/facebook-banned-in-china-how-it-makes-money-there.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/23/facebook-banned-in...
dis-sys 6y ago
foreign apps or websites? 99.9% of them are US apps and websites. you don't need to ban india apps in China as I've never heard any of them, you don't need to ban india website as the india infrastructure won't be able to serve requests from a country like China anyway.
- blocked_again 6y ago
  Serving large number of requests is not an unsolved problem which only China has monopoly on. You just spin up more servers in the cloud as you get more and more users. Cloud platforms like AWS, Google Cloud and technologies like Kubernetes, Docker etc has made the job way too easy. Anyway, India's hotstar holds the world record of maximum number of consecutive users watching a live stream. https://gadgets.ndtv.com/entertainment/news/hotstar-world-record-25-3-million-viewers-icc-cricket-world-cup-2019-india-new-zealand-semi-final-ma-2069996 https://gadgets.ndtv.com/entertainment/news/hotstar-world-re... https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/12/hotstar-disneys-indian-streaming-service-sets-new-global-record-for-live-viewership/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/12/hotstar-disneys-indian-str...

ascotan 6y ago

I doubt they can audit close source software.

billfruit 6y ago

But I doubt any due process was done before the ban, if any and concrete proof of wrongdoing is established before doing such things. Most of the bigger app developers will surely goto court. If any this sounds like a propaganda move aimed at giving the people a feeling that the government has done something about it. Some of these may relaunched as a web service, some may relaunch under a different branding, there are any number of things the app makers can legitimately do to skirt around this. Using summary executive powers to do such is a rather undemocratic move, and which time and again this Indian Government has indicated it has no qualms of using. This is a politically motivated move, where as it should not be. If there was established wrongdoing then ban the apps, not because it is politically convenient to do it.

Razengan 6y ago

> India is absolutely right in banning TikTok as it is a significant national securities threat. As opposed to Skype, Facebook, WhatsApp, Snapchat and all the others?

z9e 6y ago
The difference being TikTok is operated by India’s adversary.

KKKKkkkk1 6y ago

Honestly, I don't see the difference between TikTok and other social media apps and the old media. Why not ban Hollywood, the Beatles, and McDonald's then? Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth?

ta17711771 6y ago
Yes.
GuiA 6y ago
> Aren't they a source of pernicious American influence on this generation's youth? Many countries have broadcast laws around a maximum amount of foreign programming (for one example amongst many, private French radios have to play French music for at least 40% of their programming).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
grecy 6y ago
The difference is that China = bad and America = good.

zkid18 6y ago

All RS algorithms follows non-trivial logic based on the user’s feedback. They constantly adapt and upgraded. You can add some fuzzy-rules based on your moderation principles — remove porn, videos about flat earth, abusive content, and etc. But the core algorithm hard for interpreting. Letting government step into this space creates an alternative form of censorship. I would rather ask all content platforms for transparent open-sourced moderation rules. At the meantime, TikTok has a remarkable traction that put in a row of the greatest product of the decade. Previously ByteDance tried to move HQ away from China, but I now I guess they might even consider selling their product. I guess it is more political decision rather than Indian government really cares about data security. Seems that US and specifically Facebook become the absolute winner in India.

gbraad 6y ago

> At the very least, the government should audit the algos and make sure China can’t arbitrarily alter ranking results. Can we do the same for YouTube ?!

mlang23 6y ago

Well, the same applies to FaceBook, just to name one prominent example. Or Google, for that matter.

ekianjo 6y ago

Wasn't TikTok also caught intercepting the clipboard contents of the phones on which it was installed? Not sure about malware, but it could certainly be qualified as spyware if it actually does that.

esafwan 6y ago

This looks mostly like gimmick PR stunt to cover the recent setback India had with China in the border. For example see this news from a channel that supports govt. shorturl.at/acjoM This is not a comedy show, its a real prime time new show. If India was serious about taking action it would have done something about the Chinese branded phone and Chinese infra project. All the largest phone brands in India are chinese. Same is true for Tv's. All unicorn startups in the country has considerable chinese interest. This ban carefully stays away from all apps, businesses and things that could really invite a response from China. And it worked. As in the link above, Modi's followed have taken the bait. They are happy and all over social media celebrating this as a fitting reply for the soldiers life lost in the border.

jkingsbery 6y ago

My reading of the article is that it has a lot more to do with the border clash with China that killed 20 Indian soldiers with more believed to be captured (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-border-clash.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/16/world/asia/indian-china-b...) and a subsequent desire to distance themselves from Chinese goods and services than it has to do with algorithmic transparency.

Nginx487 6y ago

I hope other countries follow this absolutely wise decision. China will not hesitate to use any measures for weakening national security of countries it believes to be its enemies

happppy 6y ago

like fb, youtube, twitter, linkedIn algos are audited. Just because tiktok is Chinese app, audit it?? what kind of hypocrisy is this.