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Trump suspends H1B, H4 visas till year end
- progers7 6y agoIf https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=WC https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Category.as... is accurate, the bay area was the top recipient of H1B recipients in 2019.
- 7d7n 6y agoWSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-suspend-new-h-1b-other-visas-11592853371 https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-s...
- coolspot 6y agoNo paywall: https://archive.is/AO6w9 https://archive.is/AO6w9
- davidw 6y agoVirtually all economists agree that this is a terrible idea. There is not a 'fixed lump of labor' to go around. A good follow on twitter for immigration issues is David Bier, of the CATO institute: https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier https://twitter.com/David_J_Bier . I'm not a libertarian, but he puts out a lot of research and well-informed articles.
- jmpman 6y agoDavid Bier needs to talk to American workers who have been displaced by Infosys or TCS. His ivory tower view sounds great in academia papers, but my experience says that the system isn’t considering US citizens like it’s supposed to.
- davidw 6y agoThe US has done just fine by itself by welcoming immigrants. How many Fortune 500 companies were founded by them or their children? You can't know ahead of time which ones will go on to be successful, or maybe have a kid who is. The solution to people in the US going through tough times is to help them directly, not encourage companies to open offices in Canada and the EU.
- linksnapzz 6y agoBy that logic, it is imperative to bring in all seven billion humans not currently inside the US. We don't know which of those seven billion might suddenly start a Fortune 500 company ex nihilo where we can't take advantage of it. I volunteer your neighborhood to host the first 500,000; do you have a pull-out bed or a few spare cots we can use?
- esoterica 6y agoYou know immigrants pay rent and buy houses just like everyone else right? The government doesn't force people to host them in their bedrooms.
- linksnapzz 6y agoA substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. Landlords will undoubtedly turn a blind eye to this, as the rent money is in their hands today, and the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc. not met by the increasing population is a bill due in the abstract future. As for the ones who can afford their own houses, I think the market for real estate has increased here at at least 3x the rate of inflation over the past twenty years, we certainly don't need more buyers.
- esoterica 6y ago> A substantial % of the maximum number of immigrants ppl. want to let in can't afford the median rent in my area, unless they are staying at 2-3x the occupancy of a listed apartment. The legal minimum H-1B salary is substantially higher than the median American salary, and of course, the average salary is in turn higher than the legal minimum. They are better equipped to afford the median rent than the average resident of your area. > the cost of schools, utilities, social services etc Are you under the impression that immigrants don't pay taxes or something? Skilled immigrants are higher income than average and pay far, far more into the system than they take out of it.
- bobdole12345 6y agoSo, make those folks who are good enough to work and pay taxes in the US into citizens? No longer a problem, unless the problem was really that they're not "american" enough all along?
- jmpman 6y agoMy view is that the system should be beneficial to American citizens. If that means that US companies are unable to hire US citizens because of a lack of capable applicants, then bring in people from outside the US to perform that work. But, notice that the premise is that the skills aren’t available in the US. That means that there should be more funding for US scholarships in whatever field is demanding these immigrants. I think there should be a tax on the immigrants, which is used to fund education for US citizens to perform this work. Once the US citizen graduates, their salary demands will be less than the immigrants salary + tax. In an efficient system, the company would replace the immigrant with the US citizen. It will result in free college for US citizens who want to pursue job fields in high demand, which is what we really want to happen. The problem is that they’re not “American”, and my politicians shouldn’t be making laws to put its citizens at a disadvantage when they could be making laws that help pull up lower socioeconomic Americans to participate in these higher paying jobs. Once these immigrants become citizens, they’re as “American” as me.
- bobdole12345 6y agoSo, you understand that there are hundreds of thousands of people who have good paying jobs, who wait decades to become citizens right? That whole time they're paying taxes like a citizen, but without most of the rights and benefits, and no representation. So, there's a whole pile of people that your government is effectively disenfranchising, and harassing with this kind of activity. And it's disproportionally towards folks who have brown skin. Oh wait, it's racism, and this is working as intended.
- jmpman 6y agoThey can choose to come here or not. They can stay in their current country, get paid, vote, build a life. Why does America owe them anything?
- shuckles 6y agoCan you tell me more about these American workers being displaced by IT consulting shops?
- jfim 6y agoIt was in the news a few years ago. Here's an example that was in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff...
- shuckles 6y agoThat article describes a violation of the terms of an H1-B visa which could be pursued by the executive without scrapping the program entirely. Why has the administration decided to proceed with the latter instead of the former?
- newfriend 6y agoBecause they want to? Why do they have to do what you want them to do? They are free to scrap the entire thing if they so choose. H1-B has been massively abused for decades. Any attempt to reign this in should be welcomed by American workers, who are the ones this abuse affects most.
- xxpor 6y agoYou're making the normative assumption that Americans are entitled to these jobs more than anyone else. You're also making the economic assumption that Americans are a perfect substitute and this is at worst a net 0 loss for the economy. I think neither is true.
- jmeister 6y ago> Americans.. more than anyone else You must have missed what happened in 2016
- esoterica 6y agoAnd how many American workers work for companies founded by immigrants or the children of immigrants? Or work on projects and inventions that are the brainchild of immigrants? The job market is not a zero sum game. The US has 5% of the world population but is responsible for a very disproportionate amount of the world's technological output because it attracts a disproportionate fraction of inventors and engineers from all over the world. Why do you think the most immigrant rich cities in America like SF and NYC also have the highest incomes? If immigrants drove wages down and stole jobs from Americans, you would expect places like rural West Virginia to have higher incomes than SF. Spoiler: they don't. If you have 1 million jobs held by Americans and 1 million jobs held by immigrants, and you kick out the 1 million immigrants, you do not get 2 million jobs held by Americans. You get 500k jobs held by Americans and 1.5 million extra jobs in China, India, the EU, and other any other regions that are less keen on punching themselves in the face with self-destructive industrial policy.
- m0zg 6y agoHe's not going to: CATO is the Koch Brothers think tank. It used to be called the Koch Foundation. It's in their interest to have as cheap a labor force as possible. They're in favor of unlimited unskilled labor from Mexico as well, US working poor be damned. Why anyone would carry water for them on this site is a mystery to me.
- jedberg 6y agoThe people who are being displaced are victims of companies violating the rules of the H1-B. Instead of scraping the program, they should increase the funding so they can step up enforcement. Used property, the H1-B program brings in new talent and contributes positively to the American economy through both innovation and actual tax payments by the immigrants who can't even get all the benefits their taxes pay for (making them greater net contributors than US citizens).
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoThey're violating the intent of the rules of the H1-B, but it's not clear that they're violating the actual rules. If you're a software company who: * builds a bad work culture * hires all candidates who pass the coding interview * sets interview standards that require more than just local applicants to reach your staffing needs it can easily be true both that you've never rejected a qualified US citizen and that you're deliberately seeking to hire H1-Bs.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> They're violating the intent of the rules of the H1-B I think they are violating the public justification more than the actual intent.
- rmk 6y ago* hires all candidates who pass the coding interview I agree on this one in particular. It is quite transparently a process that has morphed into a way to reject older candidates. The older you are (relative to a fresh college graduate), the harder it becomes to jump through the various algorithmic hoops (even if you studied Computer Science in college). That's exactly what the majority of the large tech companies want --- hire large numbers of folks who have no life outside of work so that they can work them more / pay them less. You can always claim 'but he/she did not make the cut' and appear impartial, while selecting for young kids just out of school. It would have been interesting to see how this would have affected fall hiring, but for the confounding effect of the recession.
- readme 6y agothe orange man is out in november, don't worry about it privately I correctly predicted the last three presidential elections, including trump's election i am predicting he's out, because: - no one showed up for his dumb rally - bolton book - behind in polls - gambling sites betting on biden winning - black lives matter - covid ... there are too many reasons he will fail there is a small chance he'll pull something and try to refuse to leave though, in which case I would ask how do you feel about fighting in a civil war?
- metrokoi 6y agoIf he loses (I believe there's a good chance he will) he won't lose because of anything left wing people care about like Bolton's book. His base never cared about things that liberals think they should care about and never will. He'll lose because his base is upset that he's not doing anything about people tearing down statues of George Washington and Andrew Jackson and doing things like hiding in a bunker (supposedly) and tweeting while people set fire to a church right outside the Whitehouse. It makes him look weak.
- readme 6y agomaybe you're right but there's no way it's only liberals who care about bolton's book add to that mitt romney, colin powell, and mattis, and in a very short time there's a lot of conservatives saying that trump sucks
- mymythisisthis 6y agoI'm wondering if the EU will retaliate?
- elcomet 6y agoThis is extremely good for Europe (as people will go there instead of to the US). So they certainly won't
- nine_zeros 6y agoEU (and Canada and Australia) can capitalize by 1. Actively poaching US employers to quickly setup shop in EU 2. Give visas to tech workers Outcome? More business activity in the EU, more tech industry and instant boosting of GDP coming out of covid.
- pnako 6y agoWhy would the EU complain about Trump ending the brain drain? It's a good decision by Trump. It benefits American workers and non-American nations. Win/win. The losers are the Gates and Bezos who are already extremely wealthy. I will find have to find a source but I think there is a gap between the share of profits captured by IT workers vs banking workers in the US, and those are industries with equivalent levels of workforce education and capital intensity.
- erikig 6y agoThe freeze is pretty wide ranging and will apply to a number of other visas as well: - H1-B - Specialty occupations - H4 - Immediate family members of the H-1B visa holders - L - Intracompany transferees from oversees - J - Work-and study-based exchange - H2-B - Temporary non-agricultural workers
- gnulinux 6y agoThe ban on J is extremely weird and devastating. When I was in UC Berkeley a lot (all? most? idk) of non-citizen researchers and professors were on J. How will this work? Disclaimer: I'm currently on H1B in the US, so I'm not unbiased.
- jhart99 6y agoIt is going to go extremely poorly. Guess we can't hire any non-US postdocs anymore with the exception of Canada/Mexico since they have a NAFTA visa that isn't on the list. I also suppose that if the ones we have leave the country and need their J-1 visa renewed, they will be stuck until 2021.
- klipt 6y agoTechnically NAFTA also ends this July, but it seems the replacement is mostly just NAFTA with a new name.
- huy-nguyen 6y agoJ1 has many different categories. Postdocs are usually on the research scholar/professor category of J1, which are not affected.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> How will this work? It will devastate US institutes of higher education if it is maintained over the long term, and merely cause massive damage over the short term. Which is part of the plan, no doubt; the political faction executing it isn't exactly know for it's fondness for the academy.
- ericwood 6y agoThis has been extremely disappointing news for our family. My sister's boyfriend is an Irish citizen and recently got a job at a large national lab in the same city as us, visa sponsorship and everything. They were supposed to be here in April, but covid delayed things. Now the won't be coming at all. I'm not sure what we're going to do. This was a huge opportunity for him, and it was going to reunite our family. I'm unbelievably sad right now. It's especially bullshit, given part of the H1B criteria is proving there's no US citizens that can do the job. I have a hard time seeing any good coming from this, and it feels like Trump is just pushing his xenophobic agenda further.
- davidw 6y agoThis looks like the work of white nationalist Stephen Miller. Very sorry to hear about your family situation.
- darkteflon 6y agoThat’s absolutely brutal, really sorry to hear that.
- armitron 6y agoIt's not at all bullshit. The H1B criteria mean nothing and are trivial to game. They've been abused continuously to bring in entry-level talent, avoid hiring Americans and lower wages across the board. This is a great decision and one of the few good things about this presidency. H1Bs as they now exist should be banned outright and only specific VISAs handed out based purely on merit.
- ericwood 6y agoWhatever. The dude’s a PHD in mechanical engineering with a very specific focus needed by this lab. It screws us over and it also screws over the lab. We should be so lucky to welcome an engineer like him into our country.
- esoterica 6y agoThe H-1B program is essentially the only way for most skilled immigrants to enter the US. Suspending the H-1B program is effectively a near-blanket ban on skilled immigration. Even if you think some companies abuse the program, the answer is not to go full North Korea and shut down the country to immigration. It's like banning food because some people eat unhealthily.
- m0zg 6y agoAnd also, there's a proposal to _finally_ require that H1-B's are paid no less than median pay for the jobs, when visa issuance is resumed. Companies are fighting it tooth and nail, obviously, but I think they'll lose this time.
- GenerocUsername 6y agoEqual work equal pay. Makes sense to me
- bagacrap 6y ago"no less than median" doesn't sound equal to me. Some some will be paid above median, the h1b median will be higher than the overall median.
- president 6y agoA lot of people are under the assumption that H1-B workers are all about saving on salary costs when this is actually not the full picture and actually leads to misguided arguments in the media and discussions that I have observed. As someone who has worked with many many H1-B workers in the past decade, I can tell you that H1-B workers are hired not because they are "low cost" but because they are willing to put in long hours and are very agreeable to tough working conditions. They are generally agreeable to managers and will not typically complain about or call out ethical/legal concerns when they arise. On top of all of this, companies understand that they can mistreat H1-B workers as much as they want because most of them cannot switch jobs for years due to their visa situation. Simply put, H1-B workers are highly sought after because they have little effective working rights compared to American workers. And after decades of H1-B reliance, companies have been able to transform the American working culture by making this the norm. Even American workers must now adhere to these types of working conditions as in many top companies, H1-B workers make up the majority of the workers.
- m0zg 6y agoYes and no. You get to hire PhDs and senior developers into entry level positions, with entry level pay, and then keep them there until they get a green card and show you the middle finger. Glorified indentured servitude. And I say this as a former H1-B myself (sponsored by Microsoft). Once I got a green card (which, BTW, took 7 years), my career took off like a rocket. Elsewhere.
- iask 6y agoIt’s a psychological play that is politically motivated. Nothing else.
- dragonwriter 6y agoIt's an election year move to split pro-labor-progressive Democrats and Democratic-leaners from neoliberal capitalist Democrats (and to force Biden to commit one way or the other, or to waffle indeterminately in the middle alienating both) while energizing right-wing xenophobes.
- WhiskeyTang 6y agoI think this is Trump's primary motivation too. Regardless of one's opinion on immigration however, suddenly creating an immediately invoked executive order with no warning, no grace period, and no plan for what comes next is reckless and will needlessly cause harm to many people who were just trying to do what's best for themselves while acting fully within the law and system as it exists (er, existed). It is a morally bereft and politically motivated action, which is to say, exactly what we should all expect from the narcissistic orange clown in the Oval Office.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Regardless of one's opinion on immigration however, suddenly creating an immediately invoked executive order with no warning, no grace period, and no plan for what comes next There's been warning that something like this was coming for a while, and it's been broadly expected since the April 22 immigration halt order, given the way Trump had previously railed against the existing H-1B system as worker-hostile and the entire justification for the April 22 immigration halt was the threat to US workers from immigrants in the present crisis.
- zaroth 6y agoThere’s no need to energize “right-wing xenophobes” - if you think they are a meaningful voting bloc to begin with - they are already voting for Trump. I think much more likely it’s a strategy to provoke a legislative solution. There is basically no reform legislation that can occur in 2020 without a major forcing function.
- ayakura 6y agoApologies. I had to clip part of the EO's official title to fit the title requirement.
- 0xy 6y agoAm I correct that this only applies to new visas through those programs, and existing visa holders will be able to renew?
- jedberg 6y agoYou are correct: The order does not apply to those already in the United States, and it gives the Trump administration some leeway in making other exceptions. For example, immigrants applying for visas to provide labor "essential to the United States food supply chain" are exempt. Individuals "whose entry would be in the national interests" as determined by the federal government are exempt as well.
- hkmurakami 6y agoIt's implied that renewals fall under "the order does not apply to those already in the United States", but is frankly not direct or transparent enough to give comfort for those who have to leave the country temporarily to process their visa renewals. There were plenty of renewal snafus even before the current administration, and the vagueness of these EOs certainly don't make things better.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> It's implied that renewals fall under "the order does not apply to those already in the United States", but is frankly not direct or transparent enough to give comfort for those who have to leave the country temporarily to process their visa renewals. It specifically does not apply those in the US on the date of the proclamation or with a valid nonimmigrant visa or nonvisa entry document. So, no, there is no ambiguity on the face on this point. (That is, it expressly only applies to those outside the US on the date it becomes effective, who don't have a visa, and don't have a nonvisa travel document.)
- hkmurakami 6y agoI got this confirmed by an immigration attorney. Thank you for your information.
- filoleg 6y ago>The official said Trump has also directed aides to work on longer-term reforms to the immigration system. The president is pushing for a more merit-based system that would distribute H-1B visas based on which applicants received the highest wage offers, the official said. I found this part to be the most interesting. If this current proclamation is a prelude to the overhaul of H1B system in a way that would make it work like described above, then it is somewhat exciting for a couple of reasons. 1. It would get it closer to Canadian system for work visas, which works as a point system that (I think a lot of people here would agree) is more preferable to how H1B works now. 2. It solves the whole issue with consultancy companies flooding the H1B pool with extremely underpaid bodies, thus making it more difficult for other people to get their H1B visas. EDIT: after reading some replies, I feel the need to clarify what I meant. I am not saying "this H1B suspension is a good thing, because it means they will implement those other changes very soon" (because I don't believe this will happen). I simply meant that this H1B suspension aside, it would be great if that proposal for a giant H1B reform actually materialized, and I am glad it got mentioned. And no, I am not holding my breath that it will happen soon, but I am just glad that it seems to be getting some traction.
- octbash 6y ago>I found this part to be the most interesting. If this current proclamation is a prelude to the overhaul of H1B system in a way that would make it work like described above, then it is somewhat exciting for a couple of reasons. I think most people who've dealt with the immigration system would think that that is naive. This administration has proven time and time again with regards to immigration that they will pay lip service to making improvements while almost always simply making life harder for immigrants and people on visas. See: how they suspended H-1B premium processing for a while some time back, also claiming that it was in service of "overhauling" the H-1B system.
- newen 6y agoVery likely that there are people with different views who are pulling things to different directions.
- 6y ago
- empath75 6y agoDoes anyone know if au pairs are exempt?
- hkmurakami 6y agoAu-pairs are called out as affected in the WSJ article. "In addition to the H-1B visa, the temporary ban will apply to new H-2B visas for short-term seasonal workers in landscaping and other nonfarm jobs, J-1 visas for short-term workers including camp counselors and au pairs and L-1 visas for internal company transfers." https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-suspend-new-h-1b-other-visas-11592853371?mod=hp_lead_pos1 https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-order-would-temporarily-s...
- belltaco 6y agoWith companies getting very comfortable with WFH and remote work because of the pandemic, this is perfect timing for them to hire offshore in India or in Canada to keep the timezone the same. And open offices in Canada and/or India. Once offices are set up in Canada, preference will be to hire new teams there since anyone in the world can work easily there and salaries and costs are lower than in the US.
- marrone12 6y agoI'm an American citizen with a Canadian wife and would love for more companies to have offices in Canada. We would definitely move if the job market was better compared to California.
- mabbo 6y agoThe wages are improving at Canadian FAANG offices. Competition from others is increasing. That doesn't mean I'm making SF compensation levels, but I also don't have to pay 3/4 of it in rent. Maybe you could come visit and consider your options.
- niyazpk 6y agoI live in Vancouver and ~1/2 of my salary goes to rent. In Seattle, my rent was ~1/3 of my salary. I don't think Canada is even beginning to compete in terms of Salary.
- raydev 6y agoVancouver != Canada. Toronto salaries are much better at the big name US-based companies.
- digianarchist 6y agoRent is half of your salary in Toronto too.
- throw345hn 6y agoDoes this apply to H1B ‘transfers’? I know that it’s not officially called a transfer so was wondering if that be counted as a new application and so will be rejected.
- pronoyc 6y agoIt doesn't apply to transfers since the visa has already been issued.
- throw345hn 6y agoThanks. With the way it’s phrased as ‘case by case‘ basis - I think even if it’s technically allowed, they may end up rejecting on broad terms. Anyways I am already packing my bags and will be out of the country in a few days when I am able to find a flight.
- arugulum 6y agoI will repost my quick immigration quiz, for Americans/others who may be unfamiliar with what the typical visa process is for an immigrant: 1. An international student graduates at the top of their class in Stanford in CS, and goes to work for a tech company. What visa do they use? The correct answer is F1 (OPT) for one year, with OPT STEM extension for 2 extra years, while they apply for H-1B. If they weren't a STEM major, regardless of their actual role, they have a single year to apply for H-1B, with a ~30% chance of success by lottery, before being asked to leave the country. Regardless of their qualifications. 2. Instead of staying in tech for their career, they work for a year in a tech firm, then go to MIT for CS grad school. They perform excellently, having many publications under their name, doing several industry internships at Microsoft/Google labs. They then get accepted to a tenure track Assistant Professor position at Columbia. What visa do they apply for? Still H-1B. My understanding is that the latest executive order includes several exemptions, but I still want to emphasize how widely used and important H-1B is as an channel for introducing talent into the US.
- throw345hn 6y agoIf they have a number or publications as you say, they may be eligible to apply for O-1 visa. I know a couple of people who received it and (in my opinion) got it for less than what you may think of as good technical merit
- arugulum 6y agoMy understanding is that O-1 visas require very specifically tailored applications to qualify. (I too have heard stories of how moderate achievements are twisted/massaged to be pitched for the O-1 application, and worked.) I know several brilliant new/junior professors who are nevertheless on the H-1B track. My point is that H-1B is far and beyond the default and most common visa for introducing foreign working talent, and others like O-1 and EB-1 are the rare, rare exceptions.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> My point is that H-1B is far and beyond the default and most common visa for introducing foreign working talent, and others like O-1 and EB-1 are the rare, rare exceptions. EB-1 is an immigrant visa and, aside from being smaller in number than H-1B, was already halted along with immigration generally on April 22, and this order extends the immigration halt through December as well as adding a few nobimmigrant visa categories to the halt.
- ylyn 6y agoDoes this apply to the H-1B1-Singapore?
- zaptheimpaler 6y agoThis announcement means anyone who planned on beginning work under an H1B soon after perhaps months of job seeking and waiting for H1B approvals is suddenly shit out of luck. Anyone about to be granted a green card after years on the wait list is shit out of luck. Another HN'ers comment about their sisters Irish boyfriend who now can't move and leaves their family living in different continents is already one example of all the life plans this kind of change disrupts. They have been making these sorts of life changing policy decisions at the drop of the hat for years now - no notice, no coherent long term plan whatsoever, only a year old tweet from Trump promising reforms. Even if you have spent 5 or 10 years in the country studying, working, paying taxes, building friends & family in the US, you have no more stability or value to the government than a fresh immigrant. The constant instability of your entire life as an immigrant is not worth putting up with. Might as well go somewhere else - in most places you get points based immigration and a STABLE visa & path to citizenship that won't fall out from under you.
- amznthrowaway5 6y ago> The constant instability of your entire life as an immigrant is not worth putting up with. Might as well go somewhere else Even with all the hassle, it is still worth it working for big tech. People won't make nearly as much elsewhere.
- sg47 6y agoWell, these big companies are willing to hire these people outside US which means the job in the US goes away.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rusticpenn 6y agoMoney is not comparable to peace of mind. With a stable government ( like under Obama or even Bush), you can assume that your visa is safe and will be handles in a logical way. Now its just gambling.
- huy-nguyen 6y agoPlease replace this article with the official order: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspending-entry-aliens-present-risk-u-s-labor-market-following-coronavirus-outbreak/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...
- nine_zeros 6y agoAs I posted somewhere else, this is THE time for EU to jumpstart their tech industry. It's a simple process: - Actively court American companies to set up shop in EU - The global market is filled with tech workers who would otherwise be sucked in by the US. Give them visas. This is a great boost to GDP and bounce back from covid recession. Canada has capitalized on this for the past 4 years and the wages in Canada have only gone up and up. EU can have the pie too while the US shoots itself in the foot.
- filoleg 6y ago>Actively court American companies to set up shop in EU They have already been doing that pretty actively for quite a while. Doesn't seem to help much, if at all. Have you seen how much those American companies are paying to their employees in the EU? It is a joke compared to how much they pay in the US, and even with that in mind, their pay is still well above local equivalent companies. And it isn't due to differences in cost of living, just take a look at how much FB London pays (yes, I am aware that UK is not a part of EU, but the point still stands; I just simply picked one of the biggest "hub" cities in the are with very high COL). >The global market is filled with tech workers who would otherwise be sucked in by the US. Give them visas. EU doesn't suffer from a lack of talented individuals who have a desire and skills to start their own tech company. There have been countless discussions on this topic on HN, and the hard truth is that the governments in EU are simply not providing a conductive environment for those tech startups to flourish into internationally known giants. And the whole EU fragmentation due to wildly different legislations and language/culture barriers on a per-country basis isn't helping the matter either.
- Archit3ch 6y agoAnother issue in the EU is that they try to generalise the term "startup" to non-tech ventures... and then try to apply the advice meant for 80% margin B2B SaaS companies.
- mFixman 6y agoAnecdotal data, but you are wrong. If you count total comp FB London pays waaaay more than British tech companies and pretty much anything outside of high finance. The salaries aren't that much lower from what you'll get in Silicon Valley.
- dragonwriter 6y agoAlso, extends the complete immigration freeze that started April 22 till the end of the year. Those nomimmigrant visas (H-1B, H-4, J, L) are added to the existing and now extended halt to all immigration, not a standalone thing.
- alvatech 6y agoIs a H-1B holder already in USA allowed to travel out side the country and comeback?
- mgsk 6y agoYeah. Sec. 3. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry. (a) The suspension and limitation on entry pursuant to section 2 of this proclamation shall apply only to any alien who: (i) is outside the United States on the effective date of this proclamation; (ii) does not have a nonimmigrant visa that is valid on the effective date of this proclamation; and (iii) does not have an official travel document other than a visa (such as a transportation letter, an appropriate boarding foil, or an advance parole document) that is valid on the effective date of this proclamation or issued on any date thereafter that permits him or her to travel to the United States and seek entry or admission.
- cylinder 6y agoYes this appears to be a loophole, wherein anyone in the US on June 24 who has a valid nonimmigrant visa (could be a tourist or student visa) is able to obtain a visa label in a banned category at a US Consulate. That said whether DOS interprets it that way is another story.
- zamalek 6y agoMy immigration HR told me to stop travelling when all of this nonsense started, it is a really unreasonable risk. Despite the fact that you legally can (according to a sibling comment), it's practically unwise.
- bmitc 6y agoI would highly, highly recommend not traveling. My fiancee already has an H-1B, and we were traveling together when all this broke out. She has not been allowed back in the country, and it unlikely she is able to be let back in anytime soon. I have not seen her in over five months, and there is no rainbow in sight as to when she can return.
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- phenkdo 6y agoThe "no-shortage-if-you-pay-enough" dog has caught up to the car, and now the proponents need to show the US citizens can indeed fill many of these positions. I think it will be a unfortunate denouement for both industry and research.
- sega_sai 6y agoAs a scientist in the US (on H1B visa), I really worry about other scientists postdocs/professors that were planning to come to the States and won't be able to (and will be out of the job, as very often your previous postdoc ends at the time when the new one is about to start). This capricious government is uprooting lives of people without any advance notice or concern. Essentially people are dealt with like cattle. Today you can go, next day you can't. (personally this is one of the reasons I'm moving back to the UK, where at least I don't have to deal with idiotic immigration laws).
- huy-nguyen 6y agoUsually post docs can either be on H1B or J1 research scholar/professor visas. The former is blocked but the latter is not so it’s not all hopeless.
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- chebureki 6y agoThe US has either suspended or slowed down visa processing due to COVID-19. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-news/suspension-of-routine-visa-services.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/News/visas-news/s...
- sharkfinsoupmix 6y agoSo I happen to know this attorney for some years who handles complex US immigration issues. His office is in Cupertino. rajat@kuver.com
- totalZero 6y agoAs with many thing this administration has done, this move may have some nefarious and xenophobic motivations. I don't want to speculate about those things. However, I have heard the notion that, with unemployment numbers soaring, the American job market ought to prioritize the re-employment of Americans before serving the employment interests of foreign nationals. I don't know what the numbers are, but anecdotally I know a few people in my social circle who are highly skilled/educated and have been jobless due to the pandemic. Will this work visa suspension be a positive development for those people?
- Daishiman 6y agoIt's just going to continue pushing forward the hiring of qualified remote talent and satellite offices elsewhere. In my circle nobody's been seriously thinking about emigrating to the US if they have the option to go to Germany, Switzerland, Spain or the UK instead.
- digianarchist 6y agoThe US will always be the outlier when it comes to both opportunities and salaries. I personally still plan on moving to the US but my employer changing their transfer policy the day after Trump's inauguration certainly didn't help.
- empath75 6y agoI can’t afford an American au pair. My wife will have to quit her job if those visas are permanently suspended.
- usaar333 6y agoThat's the goal of a nontrivial number of social conservatives.
- esoterica 6y agoThe job market is not zero sum. Immigrants do not take jobs from locals or drive wages down. Why do you think immigrant-rich cities like NYC and SF have higher incomes and more robust job markets than places like rural WV with few immigrants? Millions of Americans work for companies founded by immigrants, or on projects started by immigrants. Millions of Americans work in offices that were only set up because companies wanted to take advantage of the concentration of talent in places like NY or SF that only exists because of immigration. These Americans wouldn't have their jobs without immigration.
- dangus 6y agoThere are a lot of valid criticisms of skilled labor visas in the United States. But you also can’t ignore the population growth problems that would exist in this country without immigration. We would be Japan. And the entire suburban growth Ponzi scheme that every post-1890s American city suffers from will be exacerbated by shutting off not just immigration but immigration of skilled labor. How many countries would dream of educated people flocking to live in their country? Unfortunately the whole discussion seems like one big digression. No matter which angle you approach this at, it’s just bad policies all around. You’d think that a policy built on training the vast US citizen population with better, more equitable education would be better than importing foreigners. You’d think that lowering the cost of education would help, that companies would prefer a large supply of educated citizens. The problem is, all that thinking naively assumes our policymakers and the donor class don’t hold active disdain for their own constituents: because an H1B worker is a worker with no leverage and worse ability to quit. If you read this whole comment and are confused at what position I’m trying to take, you’re not alone. I don’t even know anymore.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> But you also can’t ignore the population growth problems that would exist in this country without immigration. We would be Japan. No, we wouldn’t; Japan has negative natural population growth, the US has positive natural population growth (and it's the greatest contributor to overall populayion growth, more than net immigration.)
- diehunde 6y agoIsn't immigration contributing to that natural population growth across generations?
- 0xFFC 6y agoYeap. He/she did miss the point current population does include immigrants. With those fertility rate I would expect be around 1.2,1.3 for us which far far below replacement rate (let alone population growth).
- baby 6y agoIf you want to have a fun read: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1406862602901657/permalink/2571584449762794/?__cft__[0]=AZU4poB_g3FXZ2e8qr_8EOn1z1IytVnzg-237c17DOLRhvm0X0_roO_sngy5B0D-V-sLNAR1VJSny1w63L_3DD1frFI4WhPt-tU2nI6488iyoonW8eXFI1Y7nKs-KiGM9_eE7TpqA0UOaIPI6tZLoiBRxSiIaLrcDKyhc4dZSo27mw&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R https://www.facebook.com/groups/1406862602901657/permalink/2... a "French in the US" facebook community with 200 comments of people panicking.
- Traster 6y agoI'm not very informed on this topic, but doesn't this seem exactly like DACA? Where they issued a stupid executive order, and then the supreme court over-ruled them because they weren't competent enough at justifying their decision? Would that be likely to happen here as well?
- fsociety 6y agoNo as bad as this is the EO against DACA was more nefarious and targeting a more vulnerable group. This does have reason rooted in the unemployment rate, the issue is that it is done in a way to fuck over a lot of people. They should’ve not let companies abuse H1B over the past X years, instead of fucking over a bunch of people.
- AnAnonyCowherd 6y agoA lot of people are bemoaning this move from the viewpoint in the Valley. I work for an old-school Fortune 250 which is a top-30 H-1B holder. They strategically employ thousands of visa holders for jobs that hardly require a high school education. It seems to be a calculated move to get over-qualified workers at a discount, who have very limited mobility in the job market. From my view here, it's a system that's working against the long-term interests of the country, denying those jobs to local people for whom they would be a huge leg up.
- manuelabeledo 6y agoThen your company is cheating the system. H1-B visas are for highly skilled workers, either holding higher education diplomas or similar qualifications. They also come with a minimum salary requirement, which for most tech companies would start at $150,000. Any company paying their visa holders less than the required minimum salary cap, is indeed committing a crime. Also, this move is obviously directed against tech companies. It does not make any distinction between large IT providers such as TATA, well known for their dumping tactics, and Microsoft, Google, or Apple. I would even go further to say that, given the lack of interest in banning the entry of seasonal workers, who focus mostly on blue collar jobs, and given that the highest contribution to the rising unemployment numbers come from lower paid service and manual jobs, this is just another move to appeal to the rural, hard right wing Trump base. As it will not impact them in any significant manner, yet it would create more uncertainty in wealthier, highly educated, urban areas.
- AnAnonyCowherd 6y ago> They also come with a minimum salary requirement, which for most tech companies would start at $150,000. While I understand that my company is cheating the system, this particular requirement is news to me. I personally work with dozens who are probably taking home something in the $70-80K range. I'm guessing this particular cheat is that most are working through Tata and Infosys (and others, but they're local, and would give away who I work for). The company is probably paying the placement firm that kind of money, and the visa holders are getting shafted. The direct H-1B's are higher-level, and, given what I know of the company's salary schedules, may well be getting paid at the bottom of the requirement.
- plg 6y agoReading the declaration it seems it does not apply to people who have existing visas and are (re)entering the US. Is this correct? (How border agents choose to enforce, however, is anyone’s guess)
- jhowell 6y agoThere will be lawsuits. This is not settled.
- domnickcobb 6y agoThe Problem is TRADE not H1B . ... every Enterprise level company has IT department in US. the CTO or the VP of the company wants to save money by going to offshore business model ... so how does this work, let say an infrastructure IT support in company consists of ( storage, database, network , System admins etc say about 150 employees) then a new CTO or VP of IT comes in and he decides to go for offshore model then enters the cheap low tech incompetent service companies from Asia bids these projects here .. let say 200 Million dollars for 5 years 24/7 support .. so these Body shopping company decides to have about 60 employees offshore and 10 employees onshore here in USA using H1b visa ... now the CTO of the company feels happy for saving money and starts firing ..sorry (Let go) of those 150 citizens..... this happens in every company across this country i know because I've seen it All.. now those employees who given their flesh and blood to those projects over years gets emotionally raged...at the time of KT( knowledge transfer) to those H1B onshore slaves.. saying you guys are taking our jobs away. and all that BS. BUT they forget One big Logic/common sense..that they lost their jobs because satanic .. crooked CTO's or VP of IT of their own company and due to the company it self .... not because immigrant came over H1B visa.. Let say for the argument of emotional mob .. that the H1b is completely removed by some revolution...do you really think the jobs will come back hahaha... those body-shopping companies will be more happy because that will give them a chance to make more money.. they will make 100% offshore and then they wont even keep those 10 h1b resources onshore.. they will make a deal with those crooked CTOs to operate everything from offshore ...so the emotional mob will be still unemployed even after H1B is removed .. the solution is the current administration should bring up the trade barriers a Bill to stop offshore business model completely which they wont do since this country is built and run by Rich CEOs.......
- bustin 6y agoThe various reasons this is wild to do aside, it looks like 2020 is kneecapping the bay area rental market even more. According to [1], the Bay Area has around 12,435 people living and working here on H1B visas, no doubt mostly in Tech. [1] https://insights.dice.com/2020/01/14/h-1b-salaries-filings-highest-12-cities/ https://insights.dice.com/2020/01/14/h-1b-salaries-filings-h...
- lumberingjack 6y agoWhen the left looks crazy and everything they do is basically vendetta against the nation's leader everything they fight for is scrutinized questioned and now reversed because the silent majority is tired of paying for Asian Indians to become doctors only to leave and go back to their own country they're stealing from us Non-Stop we're just dishing out money in the form of educational aide. Who cares if we gain one more overpaid doctor that's not recruitment of talent. that's replacement of talent. Invest here in your own citizens instead of cherry picking the best minds from out of the country and importing them how about educating ones here. My family immigrated here from Mexico a generation ago my grandma taught us nothing of Mexican culture because it's a s* hole and she was ashamed of her origins rightfully so the murderer like crazy in her hometown. Yet many from places like that are getting abused by holding H-1 working jobs in the states that are basically slave labor.
- oatmeal_croc 6y agoLet me share my H1B experience. I did Masters in CS at a top 30 University in the US, graduated in Feb 2017, got into a major US tech company on OPT, at a higher-than-median income as a software engineer, unsuccessfully tried 3 times to crack the H1b lottery from 2017 to 2019. In 2020, I received a Canadian PR, and moved to Canada (we have an office here in Vancouver, although I took up a remote position in Toronto). I'm working on the same job here in Canada, although I had to take a bit of a pay cut. I'm happy to be here, and its great. It was a bit of a circus to get my Social number in Canada in the beginning due to COVID, but it's been smooth sailing since then. I miss my girlfriend who's in the US and is on OPT. So I got my company to apply for my H1B again in 2020, and finally got through lottery on the fourth attempt (consular processing), and was going to be back by October 1st. Due to the H1B travel ban, I now cannot travel to the US before Jan 1st 2021 as I don't have a visa stamp yet. I'm now considering not going back, as I don't see the point. My girlfriend is quite capable of moving her job to Canada as well, and her company is more than willing to do so via a work permit. I know for a fact that I'm not the only person who moved an American job overseas due to visa policy. The fact that my company's HR and immigration consultant company (Fragomen) worked on this like clockwork suggests that this is something they're used to doing, as they reached out to me before my OPT work permit was expiring. When a company has an employee for three years, it's a lot easier to hire them overseas than hire someone else, American or not, even if the former option costs the company a lot more. I unfortunately know several people who had visas they couldn't renew follow the route I took, and it worked out for them in the end. I want to start my own start-up eventually, and that's probably not possible on an H1B anyway (or so exceedingly difficult that I wouldn't try). I'm going to miss US National Parks though.
- dk8996 6y agoJust to add something to the conversation. I'm sure you guys see these recruiting emails as well but here an example of why H1B is broken. This salary is below market rate, clearly targeting H1B visas. Also below 150k mark. I like the idea and the spirit of the H1B and other visas but I think it's being abused. "W2 Role: Scala Developer, Loc : NYC, NY, Salary : $114k per annum, H1 TRANSFERS, H4 EAD, L2 EAD, USC, GC."