16 ms·

Facebook takes down Trump ads 'for violating our policy against organized hate'

178 points by thrusong 6y ago

lefrenchy 6y ago
I think this was absolutely the right move because it was so blatant and disgusting. I do however fear that this was a bait. The campaign posts something so blatant in order to get it taken down to be able to claim victimhood and enrage the base.
- andrew_ 6y ago
  Or bait to fuel the potential moves by the DOJ and Barr against Section 230 that's received recent coverage.
  - falcrist 6y ago
    I don't see how it would help the DOJ do anything against 47 U.S.C. 230. There's nothing there that stops Facebook from enforcing a code of conduct. A public website is allowed to be biased without losing any protections under that code. There is no distinction between publisher and platform. Hell, you could be a newspaper website with a comment section, and you'd still be legally protected from liability for what users posted. I strongly encourage people to actually read the law. Its not difficult to understand. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230
- taurath 6y ago
  Yup, and that it would work is because Facebook doesn't actually fight back, they just steadily move back their line in the sand because they're afraid of the backlash.
- duxup 6y ago
  Playing the victim is Trumps pattern, but I'm not sure it is the end goal. I think they'd be just as happy their hateful ads run too. Trump has proven that he doesn't need any truthful event to rally around. If it doesn't play out he'll just make it up too. I think this is just more the randomness of Trump and the folks around him / their shifting influences and etc.
- pacamara619 6y ago
  The German party AfD is known for this tactic. They say something outrageous, their post gets deleted or something similar happens, then they play into the victim role and call everyone else "Lügenpresse" (≈ Fake News). Internal documents from a few years ago have described this tactic.
- shiv86 6y ago
  Very interesting related twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273631800636702721 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273631800636702721
  - troughway 6y ago
    I can't tell if the examples in that twitter roll are validating or invalidating the message. These political threads are a dumpster fire. And these idiots bought right into it.
  - amyjess 6y ago
    And if you check out some of her other tweets on this, such as https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273645070709858305 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273645070709858305 And the replies: https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1273650404983631875 https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1273650404983631875 88 versions of the ad, and the first sentence of the ad contains 14 words. The numbers 14/88 have considerable significance here, especially when paired with the use of a concentration camp symbol..
    - robotron 6y ago
      I see how that could be the case but once we start delving into numerology we start to sound like conspiracy theorists.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        14/88 is hardly a conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
      - guerrilla 6y ago
        This is why they use it. It's the perfect dog whistle. Google 1488 tattoos to get an idea of just how serious and prevalent it is. [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics [2]. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=1488+tattoos&atb=v209-1&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=1488+tattoos&atb=v209-1&iax...
- dfxm12 6y ago
  to be able to claim victimhood and enrage the base That the most powerful man in the world tries to play victim and that his "base", people who call anyone speaking up just to try to get a fair shake out of life a "snowflake", can buy into it is fascinating. Any group of people that has this little self-awareness does need to be enraged. They are true believers, through and through.
- thih9 6y ago
  It seems an almost unprecedented level of immature trolling. I wonder if society will get bored of this at some point. The shock value of using taboo ideology does wear off.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    With Naziism, the shock value seems to have actually strengthened over the decades and years. Do you see any sign of it wearing off? I'd say it won't wear off until it becomes an acceptable ideology. Communist or satanist symbols no longer have as much shock value as they used to, for example.
    - thih9 6y ago
      I'm not talking about any particular ideology not being shocking anymore. I'm talking about society getting bored with people who rely on shocking and immature pranks.
      - lopmotr 6y ago
        Yea, it feeds on itself. If people get upset, that prompts more people to use it to shock them. When offended people finally get bored with it (ie they stop finding it offensive), I'm sure it'll die down. But some new thing will be used to wind up the new generation of prudes that replaces them.
  - bduerst 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  Placating the base is pointless, it thinks what it's told.
  - lefrenchy 6y ago
    That's a good point. I think it riles up the base, but serves to try to bring people to their side by nature of: "Look how crazy the left wing big tech companies are they censor red triangles" You're spot on that the base is already sold and doesn't need to be convinced.
- loopz 6y ago
  Do note this is exactly Trump's gaslit arguments (vile, digusting, untrue, etc.) for attacking the free media.
contemporary343 6y ago
Also impressive is the general incompetence shown by the Trump campaign here - some bozo alt-righter on their social media team probably decided to do this and no one in the chain of command noticed or cared. (Or, I suppose it's possible they assented too..)
- ars 6y ago
  Trump managed to go from guaranteed win, to most likely loosing. And he doesn't seem to care anymore. I don't mean he doesn't care about these symbols, I mean he doesn't seem to care if he wins anymore.
  - brokensegue 6y ago
    at what point was he "guaranteed [to] win"?
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      When the Dems picked Biden. (and I say this as a Dem) The pandemic shook everything up, but prior to that...
      - brokensegue 6y ago
        Biden has out polled Trump since at least February. At no point was Trump's victory assured. And his defeat is not assured either (donate to the campaign).
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        > Biden has out polled Trump since at least February. The same was true for Hillary.
        brokensegue 6y ago
        are you saying Trump was guaranteed win in 2016? Or are you saying you don't believe polls are indicative? Both positions are wrong.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bduerst 6y ago
- The ad in question: https://imgur.com/NQuGvDo https://imgur.com/NQuGvDo - Nazi concentration camp symbols explained: https://imgur.com/8xo1Bv2 https://imgur.com/8xo1Bv2 Associating leftist organizations with this fascist political symbol is almost guaranteed to be intentional. Edit: Some people seem to be trying to defend this by saying it's similar, though not the same, to a symbol used by a small group in Utrecht, Netherlands. Do you think the president's campaign was really trying to mimic (rather than just use) an unknown Netherlands based symbol on a U.S. based ad campaign? Just a day after a National Security Advisor said the president supported the Chinese Muslim concentration camps? Or the fact that they ran exactly 88 ads with the symbol? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_white_nationalism_and_supremacism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_white_nationali...
- _bxg1 6y ago
  Jesus Christ.
- saltedonion 6y ago
  Wow. Never knew. This is incredibly bold of the campaign.
- Aachen 6y ago
  Why was this downvoted, is it fake or otherwise misleading? I'm not using Facebook or from the USA so I'm out of the loop on the original and wouldn't be able to tell. I'd like to see the ad in question but this makes me wonder what's up with this (helpful seeming) comment.
  - pera 6y ago
    This entire comment section was grayed out a few minutes ago :/
    - krapp 6y ago
      The pro-Trump and right-wing contingent on this site tends to be very good with deflection, suppression and damage control.
taurath 6y ago
POTUS campaign absolutely knows its history. They intentionally walk right up to the line of outright white supremacy, and go over it to test the boundaries like right now. When the response isn't that strong it emboldens them that they can go further. This is boiling the frog so they can get fascism into the mainstream. That Facebook policymakers still try to pretend a neutral both-sides-ism exists and that people aren't bad actors (just like reddit with /r/the_donald) makes me think they're either idiots or in league with them.
- vkou 6y ago
  Reddit did eventually clean house, though. r/the_donald is now a dead subreddit, and has been for quite sometime.
  - bduerst 6y ago
    Even though it was quarantined, the mods eventually killed it themselves by restricting who can post. It's likely they're trying to move the userbase to another subreddit.
    - totony 6y ago
      From what I've seen, reddit's policy is to quarantine a subreddit and warn the admin to moderate more heavily "or be banned". My guess is they did this to ensure reddit wouldn't ban the subreddit and wipe out its whole history (at least that's what I'd do if faced with such a situation).
- burkaman 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Kaplan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Kaplan https://www.linkedin.com/in/harbath/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/harbath/ https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1272920601477255170 https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1272920601477255170
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- 6y ago
ihumanable 6y ago
"Our policy prohibits using a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol," Andy Stone, a Facebook spokesperson, told CNN Business. The "banned hate group" here is Nazis. This symbol was used in concentration camps. Don't let the corporate speak whitewash that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge Edit: Not sure why I'm being downvoted. I'm merely pointing out that the Facebook spokesperson is clearly identifying the violation "a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners." Since the Facebook spokesperson was being vague, I brought context in case anyone was curious, "What banned hate group?" or "which political prisoners?"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cellularmitosis 6y ago
  This comment, as well as the other comment in this thread which points out that this was the nazi symbol for political prisoners, are both currently grey due to downvotes. I would be interested to hear an explanation of why these comments are being downvoted. Are the downvoters suggesting the information is inaccurate? That this wasn't the nazi symbol for political prisoners?
  - the-dude 6y ago
    I downvoted because they complain about downvoting. Initial downvoting happens all the time on every comment imaginable.
  - s9w 6y ago
    But the exact opposite is the case. As usual only the anti-trump posts are visible while the rest is -4'd within seconds. This story is entirely made up. No one even knew that symbol and it was obviously not meant in that constructed sense. And now we take MM as a source, suggesting that they said "heil h....?" This entire story is against the submissions anyways. This is so wrong.
throwawaymanbot 6y ago
Not sure how Trump can force Fackbook to output "conservative" (Read fake conservative views) content. If anything, it makes Facebook responsible for whats put out and so they might put less controversial Fascist stuff out online.
sinuhe69 6y ago
Interesting: - The symbol itself is not in the ADL hate symbol database (checked) - Jacob S. Eder, a historian of modern Germany at the Barenboim–Said Akademie in Berlin on the Post: “I think it’s a highly problematic use of a symbol that the Nazis used to identify their political enemies,” he said. “It’s hard to imagine it’s done on purpose, because I’m not sure if the vast majority of Americans know or understand the sign, but it’s very, very careless, to say the least.” Update: this comment also got upvoted and downvoted like crazy. Whatever is the your ideology war, i think you are doomed.
- klyrs 6y ago
  ADL isn't comprehensive. But there's plenty of historical evidence of this. Come to think of it, that's probably the badge my grandpa wore in Auschwitz. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badg...
mcintyre1994 6y ago
Has anybody made any suggestion what else the upside down red triangle could possibly be a reference to? It’s uncomfortable how well it fits his message.
- giarc 6y ago
  WH response was that it's a symbol used by antifa. "“The inverted red triangle is a symbol used by Antifa, so it was included in an ad about Antifa. We would note that Facebook still has an inverted red triangle emoji in use, which looks exactly the same, so it’s curious that they would target only this ad. The image is also not included in the Anti-Defamation League’s database of symbols of hate. But it is ironic that it took a Trump ad to force the media to implicitly concede that Antifa is a hate group.”
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    And as far as people can tell, that image has never existed on the internet before that tweet. Some antifascists do use symbols. They've never been red triangles.
    - colordrops 6y ago
      That's not true: https://afanl.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/english-3-2-2018-antifa-conference-amsterdam-program/ https://afanl.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/english-3-2-2018-anti... https://society6.com/product/ancap-flag1525938_wallpaper?sku=s6-9638570p69a216v762 https://society6.com/product/ancap-flag1525938_wallpaper?sku... https://www.cafepress.com/+red_triangle_antifascist_antifascism_antifa_,453598947 https://www.cafepress.com/+red_triangle_antifascist_antifasc... https://www.redbubble.com/i/canvas-print/Antifascist-Red-Triangles-antifa-left-symbol-by-reydefine/43631729.56DNM https://www.redbubble.com/i/canvas-print/Antifascist-Red-Tri... https://www.redbubble.com/i/postcard/Antifa-Triangle-by-Joest24/40441759.V7PMD https://www.redbubble.com/i/postcard/Antifa-Triangle-by-Joes... Mind you, I don't condone Trump using the logo as a mechanism to target a group.
      - 6y ago
koolba 6y ago
> The Anti-Defamation League said Thursday the triangle "is practically identical to that used by the Nazi regime to classify political prisoners in concentration camps." Better back up your files on Google Drive before that gets shut down too. That looks awfully triangular: https://www.google.com/drive/ https://www.google.com/drive/
ReptileMan 6y ago
You have to be very naive to allow free Streisand effect to Trump. So they would turn a stupid ad that few would see into something that will get huge audience for free. Played right into their hands.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
It is fascinating to watch. my first reaction was more of a surprise more than anything else. Given this administration track record, I would be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge. Personally, I could not care less what symbols are used and I have a family member I never got to meet as he died in one of the camps. That said, the more I think about it, the more it seems like a bait. And it seems to have worked. We all really need to take a step back. The move seems desperate.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  > Given this administration track record, I would be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge. What about the track record of this administration would lead you to be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge? If there's one thing the Trump administration has been extremely knowledgeable about, it's this. Their MO is to be racist through dogwhistles and increasingly bullhorns. Their track record should lead you to believe strongly that this is all intentional and intended to be racist and hateful. The Trump administration is one week after the next embroiling itself in unnecessary scandals where they are purveyors of hate speech, racism, and violence against minorities. It is not one week after the next of incompetence or 'lack of knowledge', it is years of building on targeted hate directed towards minorities.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
    Um. Red triangle is not the most complex logo ever created. It is within a realm of possibility that it happened as, um, quality control is somewhat lax in this administration. I honestly think you are doing your cause disservice by presenting it this way. edit: removed not ; added a clarification
    - cryptoz 6y ago
      You are ignoring the context of the situation. The context matters. When a group of people who espouse hate against minorities on a daily basis use identical symbols as other groups in history who also espoused hate on a daily basis towards the same minority groups, it is not a coincidence. Analyzing every move by Trump or his administration or campaign individually, without context of the surrounding mood of the nation or recent history, will lead you to the wrong conclusions. There is a lot more subtle hate in the world than most people were expecting to exist. But it's there, and when you see time after time the same sneaky tricks used to spread hate, they no longer look like coincidences at all. The 'simplicity' of the symbol is irrelevant. It is simple by design, to give the racists who use it a 'cover' for their racism ("see it's just a triangle you're crazy for seeing things"). The pattern fits, it's racism and hate directed at minorities. This is a pattern, and pretending each action in the pattern is unrelated to each other or likely all coincidences, is effectively disinformation. These racist and hateful remarks and statements are not all just accidents.
dominotw 6y ago
> the red triangle was "a symbol widely used by Antifa." I am not from US but is this kind of symbols actually used in secret? I remember prominent democrats( i think maybe even Hilary clinton) and media claiming ok hand and pepe frog were secret symbols of white supremacists.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  > ok hand and pepe frog were secret symbols of white supremacists. They are dog whistles, together with "kekistan" and few other hand gestures. You can find various pictures of known white supremacists groups prominently showing the gestures.
  - s9w 6y ago
    praise kek
- orwin 6y ago
  The red inverted triangle is used in europe by communists and sometime unions to "remember" those who dies in the camps for the liberty. Some trotskist antifa group do wore them but those are not the "black blocs" kind.
tathougies 6y ago
Um... it's an arrow...
- _bxg1 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566279
  - tathougies 6y ago
    I mean, it's also the shape of a 'yield' sign in American driving directions. It's a triangle.. The Nazi triangle is borderless. This one has a black border. That makes it as distinguished from that as a yield sign, unless the claim is that the yield symbol also is a sign of secret nazis. This is absolutely ridiculous. Meanwhile, Biden is telling actual colored people whether or not they have been approved by white people to be black or whatever. Disgusting. Here is a french wikipedia article discussing the triangle rouge: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_rouge https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_rouge. It notes that it is used against the far right (presumably by antifa-types). Also used by leftist groups like Ras l'front. Here is the symbol used on the antifa utrecht homepage: https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Do political campaigns randomly illustrate their ads with random large shapes as a matter of course?
dorkwood 6y ago
Something that's always bothered me about articles like this is that they go into great detail to describe the ad, but don't actually show the ad itself.
- Kye 6y ago
  It's hard to walk the line of not showing Nazi imagery while also needing to talk about it. For example: the people who made The Man in the High Castle destroyed all the Nazi imagery they made out of concern actual Nazis would get their hands on their high quality Nazi imagery. No one wants to be responsible for helping a movement that should have ended at the Nuremberg trials.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  That's intentional, to avoid giving it a yet broader platform.
notRobot 6y ago
> The Anti-Defamation League said Thursday the triangle "is practically identical to that used by the Nazi regime to classify political prisoners in concentration camps." Wow.
root_axis 6y ago
Is it a coincidence that this comes the day after the justice department declared that they intend to push legislation that will diminish section 230 protection? They're coming for Facebook either way so maybe they don't feel the need to feign total neutrality any longer.
s9w 6y ago
"The Anti-Defamation League said" This story is entirely made up. They explained and even proved where that symbol came from. MM even claimed that they ran 88 of them - meaning "you know what". Yes that's actually what people are supposed to believe.
lopmotr 6y ago
The red triangle was used by the Nazis to identify political prisoners (eg communists), not Jews or blacks or anything "hateful" like that. It's completely normal for countries at war to have political prisoners and even in peacetime too. America still has it's own political prisoners in prison right now for crimes like spying and leaking classified information. Other western countries are even worse, having people locked up for expressing banned political ideas. Ironically, that includes Nazis themselves in Europe, but it's also illegal to display the ISIS flag in the UK, for instance. People obviously love having political prisoners.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  You're saying that if a person chooses to use a symbol that Nazis used to identify their political enemies in their prisons, that person can't be expressing anything hateful because other countries also use symbols to categorize prisoners. I almost can't believe that you actually think that.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    Yes. Just because the Nazis did it, doesn't make it "hateful" (racist, etc.). People are going off the rails worrying about any kind of symbols or hints related to Nazis because they've somehow become a popular bogeyman.
hypewatch 6y ago
Facebook is in a difficult spot right now. They’re in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. Granted, Zuckerberg and his team in many ways got themselves into this situation, but at this point it’s hard to see how Facebook moves forward without regulators, either on the left or the right, calling for antitrust or privacy laws to be enforced against them. I’m not sure if you could break up Facebook in the same way that Standard Oil was, but there is certainly appetite for regulatory action against FB on the left and the right.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  > They’re in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. No, leaving up Nazi propaganda in place is not that kind of situation. There is only one right answer. Delete the offending content and call out the posters of the content for what they are: posters of racist and hateful content. Any other action from Facebook is unacceptable. It's not a "damned if you do damned if you don’t". Caving to racists and hate groups to run their awful messages isn't something that you need to seriously consider doing. It's just a ..... No.
  - hypewatch 6y ago
    I’m sorry I think you misinterpreted what I meant by “damned if you do...”. I meant that either the democrats or the republicans will damn them no matter what they do. I agree with your negative sentiments regarding the disturbing advertisements coming from Trump. I also agree that these ads should not be allowed on any media platform. I was simply commenting on Facebook’s precarious political position. Despite how much we all dislike Trump on HN, he is the president and he will almost certainly retaliate against censorship from FB.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  > Facebook is in a difficult spot right now. Nonsense. Banning all political advertising is the most impartial option. They just prefer money to even the vaguest approximation of doing the right thing.
  - 6y ago
orthecreedence 6y ago
Whether the symbol is used by Antifa or not doesn't really matter. What matters is if people in general associate the symbol with antifa. I almost always think of two flags (a red and black flag) when I think of Antifa, or just the regular anarchist flag. Look here: https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+logo&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj1_qbljIzqAhXTATQIHUPqA-AQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=antifa+logo&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAA6BQgAELEDOgUIABCDAVC-EVisHGDMHWgAcAB4AIABeIgB1gOSAQM0LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img&ei=q8DrXrX9IdOD0PEPw9SPgA4&bih=729&biw=1536 https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+logo&tbm=isch&ved=2ah... The google image search for "Antifa logo" does not show the inverted triangle, except in a post explaining the ad we're all talking about. Nobody thinks of an inverted triangle when thinking about Antifa. Some people in the antifa movement may have used the symbol, but it's not associated with them enough for an ad calling them out to use it. Why run an anti-antifa ad and use a symbol that people don't associate with antifa?
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  This is the clearest explanation as to why the lengthy argument in this thread is pointless. Common sense makes it obvious that this symbol was not chosen purely to represent antifa.
- tathougies 6y ago
  Nobody thinks of a nazi concentration camp symbol to label liberals, social democrats, and any party dissenter (this was not the one used to mark jews) either.
  - happytoexplain 6y ago
    Which is why it was chosen. It's not obvious. It's just a red triangle.
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      It's not just "not obvious" - it's not used at all. ...and hasn't been since 1945. ...and even then it wasn't known except to the people in a few camps. ...so what's your hypothesis here? That he told them to use a near-nonexistent symbol as a secret message to the, maybe 5 people in the world that remembered that symbol? Does that sound like a credible theory to you? ...or isn't it more likely that some stupid intern just fucked up?
augustt 6y ago
Of course trying to declare antifa as a terrorist organization is just about as useful as charging all of anonymous with cybercrime. Creating a common enemy out of a nebulous group of people that share a political leaning... come on people this is fascism 101.
tathougies 6y ago
For context, here is the symbol used on the Antifa Utrecht homepage on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ I'm not sure how anyone can claim it's not related to Antifa.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  This is a good explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566826#23566911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566826#23566911
jokoon 6y ago
I guess that's a good first step for facebook. I hope they are going to ramp up those efforts before the election. If twitter and facebook are able to contains those ads it may be the first sign of Trump not being reelected. I can only hope to see reddit also take some steps in the nexts months. I really hope they do.
itchyjunk 6y ago
Comment section in HN is generally the most valuable part of reading an article for me. I hope those people who put out well thought out comments also bless some of these types of article with their well thought out responses. As for this article, is the triangle strictly the issue? If the same ad is run with a different symbol, would it be fine? If that is the case, what are the list of symbols that are not to be used in ad campaigns? As someone else commented, I googled antifa symbol and most of the results seem to be a double flag of some sort. So I am not sure what exactly the motivation is behind a red triangle (I saw the comment about "nazi concentration camp symbols"). Lastly, facebook probably removes ads all the time for all sort of minor reasons. Is there a good reason to believe this was somehow malicious?
- burkaman 6y ago
  Happy to help, but all of these questions have already been answered in this comment section. > If the same ad is run with a different symbol, would it be fine? They did run it with other symbols, and those were not taken down. https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273636769704091654 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273636769704091654 > What are the list of symbols that are not to be used in ad campaigns? This is like asking for a list of sentences that can't be used. It's obviously impossible. You can't enumerate every bad thing in the world, especially when the whole point of being human is that we can invent brand new things. It's just not a reasonable thing to ask for. It's like a kid in school getting detention for bullying a classmate and saying "Well this isn't fair, how was I supposed to know? Give me a list of everything I'm not allowed to say!" > So I am not sure what exactly the motivation is behind a red triangle (I saw the comment about "nazi concentration camp symbols"). Yes, that was it. > Lastly, facebook probably removes ads all the time for all sort of minor reasons. Is there a good reason to believe this was somehow malicious? Because they said so. > A Facebook spokesperson told Media Matters in a statement that “We removed these posts and ads for violating our policy against organized hate. Our policy prohibits using a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol.” - https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/facebook-let-trump-campaign-run-ads-inverted-red-triangle-infamous-nazi-symbol https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/facebook-let-trump-cam...
- 6y ago
zucker42 6y ago
How antifacist became a dirty word in the minds of many Americans is baffling to me. Also, the fact that people are taking the antifa stuff seriously and Republicans are just parroting Trump on the matter is ridiculous. I just skimmed through all the articles here: https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/crime/antifa https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/crime/antifa and the only one that is even specific about an alleged instance of organized violence is an incident in Texas[1][2] and is decidedly bereft of actual evidence. It's pretty clear that people are looking to blame the "other side" for any and all violence. [1] https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-investigating-links-between-antifa-and-looting https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-investigating-links-between... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Antifa-arrests-protest-george-floyd-cops-3-arrests-15334331.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Anti...
- rascul 6y ago
  > How antifacist became a dirty word in the minds of many Americans is baffling to me. Also, the fact that people are taking the antifa stuff seriously and Republicans are just parroting Trump on the matter is ridiculous. There seems to be a history of Antifa inciting violence in recent years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable...
cpr 6y ago
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273704510808965120 https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273704510808965...
jeffdavis 6y ago
Strategically, this allows Trump to get his ad taken down by facebook, which has previously not done so. That means he now can claim some kind of conspiracy against him. If the story does not grow big, that's the end of it, and a small win for Trump. If the story grows, then it will become less about the symbol (which is at least somewhat obscure) and more about antifa. The more the conversation is about antifa, and the less about unnecessary police violence, the better for Trump. Honestly, I don't think FB should have taken down the ad. I don't see what it really accomplishes. The fact is that Trump has his own audience. The more media companies fight for control, the more they just make a silo of themselves and prevent any real trust or dialogue between voters in opposite parties.
loopz 6y ago
So why the ads. Is it because he's facist? Why rally for hate at all. What's the end game? More violence?
- asdff 6y ago
  To rally the base and win the election in November. His most rabid and prolifically viral political base lives off of the loaded tweets and ads posted using the platform of the President of the United States. This isn't the first time something like this happened with Trump, nor will it be the last.
tal8d 6y ago
Well I'm not seeing any mention of it here, so let me fill you in on a little secret: this symbol is commonly used in cartography to indicate a confirmed hazard. Anyone with any time in the military or emergency management (and maybe hazmat) should immediately recognize the symbol. Fact check it yourself: search "NATO landmine symbol". You'll find the symbol in use by the UN and NATO, you'll also find standards that dictate orientation, fill style, and scaling factors. It has absolutely nothing to do with Nazi concentration camps, and the amount of hyperventilating over secret Nazi symbols is really disturbing. I don't know which is worse, that this may largely be performative outrage, or if it is genuine derangement. Ask yourself: why haven't you been told this already? Why is the media winding people up instead of fact checking? Why is facebook outsourcing this disgusting task to the ADL? Also: I predicted this just yesterday :)

178 points by thrusong 6y ago

I think this was absolutely the right move because it was so blatant and disgusting. I do however fear that this was a bait. The campaign posts something so blatant in order to get it taken down to be able to claim victimhood and enrage the base.

andrew_ 6y ago
Or bait to fuel the potential moves by the DOJ and Barr against Section 230 that's received recent coverage.
- falcrist 6y ago
  I don't see how it would help the DOJ do anything against 47 U.S.C. 230. There's nothing there that stops Facebook from enforcing a code of conduct. A public website is allowed to be biased without losing any protections under that code. There is no distinction between publisher and platform. Hell, you could be a newspaper website with a comment section, and you'd still be legally protected from liability for what users posted. I strongly encourage people to actually read the law. Its not difficult to understand. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230
taurath 6y ago
Yup, and that it would work is because Facebook doesn't actually fight back, they just steadily move back their line in the sand because they're afraid of the backlash.
duxup 6y ago
Playing the victim is Trumps pattern, but I'm not sure it is the end goal. I think they'd be just as happy their hateful ads run too. Trump has proven that he doesn't need any truthful event to rally around. If it doesn't play out he'll just make it up too. I think this is just more the randomness of Trump and the folks around him / their shifting influences and etc.
pacamara619 6y ago
The German party AfD is known for this tactic. They say something outrageous, their post gets deleted or something similar happens, then they play into the victim role and call everyone else "Lügenpresse" (≈ Fake News). Internal documents from a few years ago have described this tactic.
shiv86 6y ago
Very interesting related twitter thread: https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273631800636702721 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273631800636702721
- troughway 6y ago
  I can't tell if the examples in that twitter roll are validating or invalidating the message. These political threads are a dumpster fire. And these idiots bought right into it.
- amyjess 6y ago
  And if you check out some of her other tweets on this, such as https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273645070709858305 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273645070709858305 And the replies: https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1273650404983631875 https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1273650404983631875 88 versions of the ad, and the first sentence of the ad contains 14 words. The numbers 14/88 have considerable significance here, especially when paired with the use of a concentration camp symbol..
  - robotron 6y ago
    I see how that could be the case but once we start delving into numerology we start to sound like conspiracy theorists.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      14/88 is hardly a conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      This is why they use it. It's the perfect dog whistle. Google 1488 tattoos to get an idea of just how serious and prevalent it is. [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics [2]. https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=1488+tattoos&atb=v209-1&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=1488+tattoos&atb=v209-1&iax...
dfxm12 6y ago
to be able to claim victimhood and enrage the base That the most powerful man in the world tries to play victim and that his "base", people who call anyone speaking up just to try to get a fair shake out of life a "snowflake", can buy into it is fascinating. Any group of people that has this little self-awareness does need to be enraged. They are true believers, through and through.
thih9 6y ago
It seems an almost unprecedented level of immature trolling. I wonder if society will get bored of this at some point. The shock value of using taboo ideology does wear off.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  With Naziism, the shock value seems to have actually strengthened over the decades and years. Do you see any sign of it wearing off? I'd say it won't wear off until it becomes an acceptable ideology. Communist or satanist symbols no longer have as much shock value as they used to, for example.
  - thih9 6y ago
    I'm not talking about any particular ideology not being shocking anymore. I'm talking about society getting bored with people who rely on shocking and immature pranks.
    - lopmotr 6y ago
      Yea, it feeds on itself. If people get upset, that prompts more people to use it to shock them. When offended people finally get bored with it (ie they stop finding it offensive), I'm sure it'll die down. But some new thing will be used to wind up the new generation of prudes that replaces them.
- bduerst 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
jacques_chester 6y ago
Placating the base is pointless, it thinks what it's told.
- lefrenchy 6y ago
  That's a good point. I think it riles up the base, but serves to try to bring people to their side by nature of: "Look how crazy the left wing big tech companies are they censor red triangles" You're spot on that the base is already sold and doesn't need to be convinced.
loopz 6y ago
Do note this is exactly Trump's gaslit arguments (vile, digusting, untrue, etc.) for attacking the free media.

contemporary343 6y ago

Also impressive is the general incompetence shown by the Trump campaign here - some bozo alt-righter on their social media team probably decided to do this and no one in the chain of command noticed or cared. (Or, I suppose it's possible they assented too..)

ars 6y ago
Trump managed to go from guaranteed win, to most likely loosing. And he doesn't seem to care anymore. I don't mean he doesn't care about these symbols, I mean he doesn't seem to care if he wins anymore.
- brokensegue 6y ago
  at what point was he "guaranteed [to] win"?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    When the Dems picked Biden. (and I say this as a Dem) The pandemic shook everything up, but prior to that...
    - brokensegue 6y ago
      Biden has out polled Trump since at least February. At no point was Trump's victory assured. And his defeat is not assured either (donate to the campaign).
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > Biden has out polled Trump since at least February. The same was true for Hillary.
        brokensegue 6y ago
        are you saying Trump was guaranteed win in 2016? Or are you saying you don't believe polls are indicative? Both positions are wrong.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bduerst 6y ago

- The ad in question: https://imgur.com/NQuGvDo https://imgur.com/NQuGvDo - Nazi concentration camp symbols explained: https://imgur.com/8xo1Bv2 https://imgur.com/8xo1Bv2 Associating leftist organizations with this fascist political symbol is almost guaranteed to be intentional. Edit: Some people seem to be trying to defend this by saying it's similar, though not the same, to a symbol used by a small group in Utrecht, Netherlands. Do you think the president's campaign was really trying to mimic (rather than just use) an unknown Netherlands based symbol on a U.S. based ad campaign? Just a day after a National Security Advisor said the president supported the Chinese Muslim concentration camps? Or the fact that they ran exactly 88 ads with the symbol? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_white_nationalism_and_supremacism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)#In_white_nationali...

_bxg1 6y ago
Jesus Christ.
saltedonion 6y ago
Wow. Never knew. This is incredibly bold of the campaign.
Aachen 6y ago
Why was this downvoted, is it fake or otherwise misleading? I'm not using Facebook or from the USA so I'm out of the loop on the original and wouldn't be able to tell. I'd like to see the ad in question but this makes me wonder what's up with this (helpful seeming) comment.
- pera 6y ago
  This entire comment section was grayed out a few minutes ago :/
  - krapp 6y ago
    The pro-Trump and right-wing contingent on this site tends to be very good with deflection, suppression and damage control.

taurath 6y ago

POTUS campaign absolutely knows its history. They intentionally walk right up to the line of outright white supremacy, and go over it to test the boundaries like right now. When the response isn't that strong it emboldens them that they can go further. This is boiling the frog so they can get fascism into the mainstream. That Facebook policymakers still try to pretend a neutral both-sides-ism exists and that people aren't bad actors (just like reddit with /r/the_donald) makes me think they're either idiots or in league with them.

vkou 6y ago
Reddit did eventually clean house, though. r/the_donald is now a dead subreddit, and has been for quite sometime.
- bduerst 6y ago
  Even though it was quarantined, the mods eventually killed it themselves by restricting who can post. It's likely they're trying to move the userbase to another subreddit.
  - totony 6y ago
    From what I've seen, reddit's policy is to quarantine a subreddit and warn the admin to moderate more heavily "or be banned". My guess is they did this to ensure reddit wouldn't ban the subreddit and wipe out its whole history (at least that's what I'd do if faced with such a situation).
burkaman 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Kaplan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Kaplan https://www.linkedin.com/in/harbath/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/harbath/ https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1272920601477255170 https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1272920601477255170
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
6y ago

ihumanable 6y ago

"Our policy prohibits using a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol," Andy Stone, a Facebook spokesperson, told CNN Business. The "banned hate group" here is Nazis. This symbol was used in concentration camps. Don't let the corporate speak whitewash that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge Edit: Not sure why I'm being downvoted. I'm merely pointing out that the Facebook spokesperson is clearly identifying the violation "a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners." Since the Facebook spokesperson was being vague, I brought context in case anyone was curious, "What banned hate group?" or "which political prisoners?"

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cellularmitosis 6y ago
This comment, as well as the other comment in this thread which points out that this was the nazi symbol for political prisoners, are both currently grey due to downvotes. I would be interested to hear an explanation of why these comments are being downvoted. Are the downvoters suggesting the information is inaccurate? That this wasn't the nazi symbol for political prisoners?
- the-dude 6y ago
  I downvoted because they complain about downvoting. Initial downvoting happens all the time on every comment imaginable.
- s9w 6y ago
  But the exact opposite is the case. As usual only the anti-trump posts are visible while the rest is -4'd within seconds. This story is entirely made up. No one even knew that symbol and it was obviously not meant in that constructed sense. And now we take MM as a source, suggesting that they said "heil h....?" This entire story is against the submissions anyways. This is so wrong.

throwawaymanbot 6y ago

Not sure how Trump can force Fackbook to output "conservative" (Read fake conservative views) content. If anything, it makes Facebook responsible for whats put out and so they might put less controversial Fascist stuff out online.

sinuhe69 6y ago

Interesting: - The symbol itself is not in the ADL hate symbol database (checked) - Jacob S. Eder, a historian of modern Germany at the Barenboim–Said Akademie in Berlin on the Post: “I think it’s a highly problematic use of a symbol that the Nazis used to identify their political enemies,” he said. “It’s hard to imagine it’s done on purpose, because I’m not sure if the vast majority of Americans know or understand the sign, but it’s very, very careless, to say the least.” Update: this comment also got upvoted and downvoted like crazy. Whatever is the your ideology war, i think you are doomed.

klyrs 6y ago
ADL isn't comprehensive. But there's plenty of historical evidence of this. Come to think of it, that's probably the badge my grandpa wore in Auschwitz. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badg...

mcintyre1994 6y ago

Has anybody made any suggestion what else the upside down red triangle could possibly be a reference to? It’s uncomfortable how well it fits his message.

giarc 6y ago
WH response was that it's a symbol used by antifa. "“The inverted red triangle is a symbol used by Antifa, so it was included in an ad about Antifa. We would note that Facebook still has an inverted red triangle emoji in use, which looks exactly the same, so it’s curious that they would target only this ad. The image is also not included in the Anti-Defamation League’s database of symbols of hate. But it is ironic that it took a Trump ad to force the media to implicitly concede that Antifa is a hate group.”
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  And as far as people can tell, that image has never existed on the internet before that tweet. Some antifascists do use symbols. They've never been red triangles.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    That's not true: https://afanl.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/english-3-2-2018-antifa-conference-amsterdam-program/ https://afanl.wordpress.com/2018/01/30/english-3-2-2018-anti... https://society6.com/product/ancap-flag1525938_wallpaper?sku=s6-9638570p69a216v762 https://society6.com/product/ancap-flag1525938_wallpaper?sku... https://www.cafepress.com/+red_triangle_antifascist_antifascism_antifa_,453598947 https://www.cafepress.com/+red_triangle_antifascist_antifasc... https://www.redbubble.com/i/canvas-print/Antifascist-Red-Triangles-antifa-left-symbol-by-reydefine/43631729.56DNM https://www.redbubble.com/i/canvas-print/Antifascist-Red-Tri... https://www.redbubble.com/i/postcard/Antifa-Triangle-by-Joest24/40441759.V7PMD https://www.redbubble.com/i/postcard/Antifa-Triangle-by-Joes... Mind you, I don't condone Trump using the logo as a mechanism to target a group.
    - 6y ago

koolba 6y ago

> The Anti-Defamation League said Thursday the triangle "is practically identical to that used by the Nazi regime to classify political prisoners in concentration camps." Better back up your files on Google Drive before that gets shut down too. That looks awfully triangular: https://www.google.com/drive/ https://www.google.com/drive/

ReptileMan 6y ago

You have to be very naive to allow free Streisand effect to Trump. So they would turn a stupid ad that few would see into something that will get huge audience for free. Played right into their hands.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

It is fascinating to watch. my first reaction was more of a surprise more than anything else. Given this administration track record, I would be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge. Personally, I could not care less what symbols are used and I have a family member I never got to meet as he died in one of the camps. That said, the more I think about it, the more it seems like a bait. And it seems to have worked. We all really need to take a step back. The move seems desperate.

cryptoz 6y ago
> Given this administration track record, I would be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge. What about the track record of this administration would lead you to be willing to explain it by lack of knowledge? If there's one thing the Trump administration has been extremely knowledgeable about, it's this. Their MO is to be racist through dogwhistles and increasingly bullhorns. Their track record should lead you to believe strongly that this is all intentional and intended to be racist and hateful. The Trump administration is one week after the next embroiling itself in unnecessary scandals where they are purveyors of hate speech, racism, and violence against minorities. It is not one week after the next of incompetence or 'lack of knowledge', it is years of building on targeted hate directed towards minorities.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  Um. Red triangle is not the most complex logo ever created. It is within a realm of possibility that it happened as, um, quality control is somewhat lax in this administration. I honestly think you are doing your cause disservice by presenting it this way. edit: removed not ; added a clarification
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    You are ignoring the context of the situation. The context matters. When a group of people who espouse hate against minorities on a daily basis use identical symbols as other groups in history who also espoused hate on a daily basis towards the same minority groups, it is not a coincidence. Analyzing every move by Trump or his administration or campaign individually, without context of the surrounding mood of the nation or recent history, will lead you to the wrong conclusions. There is a lot more subtle hate in the world than most people were expecting to exist. But it's there, and when you see time after time the same sneaky tricks used to spread hate, they no longer look like coincidences at all. The 'simplicity' of the symbol is irrelevant. It is simple by design, to give the racists who use it a 'cover' for their racism ("see it's just a triangle you're crazy for seeing things"). The pattern fits, it's racism and hate directed at minorities. This is a pattern, and pretending each action in the pattern is unrelated to each other or likely all coincidences, is effectively disinformation. These racist and hateful remarks and statements are not all just accidents.

dominotw 6y ago

> the red triangle was "a symbol widely used by Antifa." I am not from US but is this kind of symbols actually used in secret? I remember prominent democrats( i think maybe even Hilary clinton) and media claiming ok hand and pepe frog were secret symbols of white supremacists.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
> ok hand and pepe frog were secret symbols of white supremacists. They are dog whistles, together with "kekistan" and few other hand gestures. You can find various pictures of known white supremacists groups prominently showing the gestures.
- s9w 6y ago
  praise kek
orwin 6y ago
The red inverted triangle is used in europe by communists and sometime unions to "remember" those who dies in the camps for the liberty. Some trotskist antifa group do wore them but those are not the "black blocs" kind.

tathougies 6y ago

Um... it's an arrow...

_bxg1 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566279
- tathougies 6y ago
  I mean, it's also the shape of a 'yield' sign in American driving directions. It's a triangle.. The Nazi triangle is borderless. This one has a black border. That makes it as distinguished from that as a yield sign, unless the claim is that the yield symbol also is a sign of secret nazis. This is absolutely ridiculous. Meanwhile, Biden is telling actual colored people whether or not they have been approved by white people to be black or whatever. Disgusting. Here is a french wikipedia article discussing the triangle rouge: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_rouge https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_rouge. It notes that it is used against the far right (presumably by antifa-types). Also used by leftist groups like Ras l'front. Here is the symbol used on the antifa utrecht homepage: https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/
ceejayoz 6y ago
Do political campaigns randomly illustrate their ads with random large shapes as a matter of course?

dorkwood 6y ago

Something that's always bothered me about articles like this is that they go into great detail to describe the ad, but don't actually show the ad itself.

Kye 6y ago
It's hard to walk the line of not showing Nazi imagery while also needing to talk about it. For example: the people who made The Man in the High Castle destroyed all the Nazi imagery they made out of concern actual Nazis would get their hands on their high quality Nazi imagery. No one wants to be responsible for helping a movement that should have ended at the Nuremberg trials.
arcticbull 6y ago
That's intentional, to avoid giving it a yet broader platform.

notRobot 6y ago

> The Anti-Defamation League said Thursday the triangle "is practically identical to that used by the Nazi regime to classify political prisoners in concentration camps." Wow.

root_axis 6y ago

Is it a coincidence that this comes the day after the justice department declared that they intend to push legislation that will diminish section 230 protection? They're coming for Facebook either way so maybe they don't feel the need to feign total neutrality any longer.

s9w 6y ago

"The Anti-Defamation League said" This story is entirely made up. They explained and even proved where that symbol came from. MM even claimed that they ran 88 of them - meaning "you know what". Yes that's actually what people are supposed to believe.

lopmotr 6y ago

The red triangle was used by the Nazis to identify political prisoners (eg communists), not Jews or blacks or anything "hateful" like that. It's completely normal for countries at war to have political prisoners and even in peacetime too. America still has it's own political prisoners in prison right now for crimes like spying and leaking classified information. Other western countries are even worse, having people locked up for expressing banned political ideas. Ironically, that includes Nazis themselves in Europe, but it's also illegal to display the ISIS flag in the UK, for instance. People obviously love having political prisoners.

happytoexplain 6y ago
You're saying that if a person chooses to use a symbol that Nazis used to identify their political enemies in their prisons, that person can't be expressing anything hateful because other countries also use symbols to categorize prisoners. I almost can't believe that you actually think that.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  Yes. Just because the Nazis did it, doesn't make it "hateful" (racist, etc.). People are going off the rails worrying about any kind of symbols or hints related to Nazis because they've somehow become a popular bogeyman.

hypewatch 6y ago

Facebook is in a difficult spot right now. They’re in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. Granted, Zuckerberg and his team in many ways got themselves into this situation, but at this point it’s hard to see how Facebook moves forward without regulators, either on the left or the right, calling for antitrust or privacy laws to be enforced against them. I’m not sure if you could break up Facebook in the same way that Standard Oil was, but there is certainly appetite for regulatory action against FB on the left and the right.

cryptoz 6y ago
> They’re in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation. No, leaving up Nazi propaganda in place is not that kind of situation. There is only one right answer. Delete the offending content and call out the posters of the content for what they are: posters of racist and hateful content. Any other action from Facebook is unacceptable. It's not a "damned if you do damned if you don’t". Caving to racists and hate groups to run their awful messages isn't something that you need to seriously consider doing. It's just a ..... No.
- hypewatch 6y ago
  I’m sorry I think you misinterpreted what I meant by “damned if you do...”. I meant that either the democrats or the republicans will damn them no matter what they do. I agree with your negative sentiments regarding the disturbing advertisements coming from Trump. I also agree that these ads should not be allowed on any media platform. I was simply commenting on Facebook’s precarious political position. Despite how much we all dislike Trump on HN, he is the president and he will almost certainly retaliate against censorship from FB.
jacques_chester 6y ago
> Facebook is in a difficult spot right now. Nonsense. Banning all political advertising is the most impartial option. They just prefer money to even the vaguest approximation of doing the right thing.
- 6y ago

orthecreedence 6y ago

Whether the symbol is used by Antifa or not doesn't really matter. What matters is if people in general associate the symbol with antifa. I almost always think of two flags (a red and black flag) when I think of Antifa, or just the regular anarchist flag. Look here: https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+logo&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj1_qbljIzqAhXTATQIHUPqA-AQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=antifa+logo&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAA6BQgAELEDOgUIABCDAVC-EVisHGDMHWgAcAB4AIABeIgB1gOSAQM0LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZw&sclient=img&ei=q8DrXrX9IdOD0PEPw9SPgA4&bih=729&biw=1536 https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+logo&tbm=isch&ved=2ah... The google image search for "Antifa logo" does not show the inverted triangle, except in a post explaining the ad we're all talking about. Nobody thinks of an inverted triangle when thinking about Antifa. Some people in the antifa movement may have used the symbol, but it's not associated with them enough for an ad calling them out to use it. Why run an anti-antifa ad and use a symbol that people don't associate with antifa?

happytoexplain 6y ago
This is the clearest explanation as to why the lengthy argument in this thread is pointless. Common sense makes it obvious that this symbol was not chosen purely to represent antifa.
tathougies 6y ago
Nobody thinks of a nazi concentration camp symbol to label liberals, social democrats, and any party dissenter (this was not the one used to mark jews) either.
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  Which is why it was chosen. It's not obvious. It's just a red triangle.
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    It's not just "not obvious" - it's not used at all. ...and hasn't been since 1945. ...and even then it wasn't known except to the people in a few camps. ...so what's your hypothesis here? That he told them to use a near-nonexistent symbol as a secret message to the, maybe 5 people in the world that remembered that symbol? Does that sound like a credible theory to you? ...or isn't it more likely that some stupid intern just fucked up?

augustt 6y ago

Of course trying to declare antifa as a terrorist organization is just about as useful as charging all of anonymous with cybercrime. Creating a common enemy out of a nebulous group of people that share a political leaning... come on people this is fascism 101.

tathougies 6y ago

For context, here is the symbol used on the Antifa Utrecht homepage on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ https://www.facebook.com/antifautrecht/ I'm not sure how anyone can claim it's not related to Antifa.

happytoexplain 6y ago
This is a good explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566826#23566911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23566826#23566911

jokoon 6y ago

I guess that's a good first step for facebook. I hope they are going to ramp up those efforts before the election. If twitter and facebook are able to contains those ads it may be the first sign of Trump not being reelected. I can only hope to see reddit also take some steps in the nexts months. I really hope they do.

itchyjunk 6y ago

Comment section in HN is generally the most valuable part of reading an article for me. I hope those people who put out well thought out comments also bless some of these types of article with their well thought out responses. As for this article, is the triangle strictly the issue? If the same ad is run with a different symbol, would it be fine? If that is the case, what are the list of symbols that are not to be used in ad campaigns? As someone else commented, I googled antifa symbol and most of the results seem to be a double flag of some sort. So I am not sure what exactly the motivation is behind a red triangle (I saw the comment about "nazi concentration camp symbols"). Lastly, facebook probably removes ads all the time for all sort of minor reasons. Is there a good reason to believe this was somehow malicious?

burkaman 6y ago
Happy to help, but all of these questions have already been answered in this comment section. > If the same ad is run with a different symbol, would it be fine? They did run it with other symbols, and those were not taken down. https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273636769704091654 https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1273636769704091654 > What are the list of symbols that are not to be used in ad campaigns? This is like asking for a list of sentences that can't be used. It's obviously impossible. You can't enumerate every bad thing in the world, especially when the whole point of being human is that we can invent brand new things. It's just not a reasonable thing to ask for. It's like a kid in school getting detention for bullying a classmate and saying "Well this isn't fair, how was I supposed to know? Give me a list of everything I'm not allowed to say!" > So I am not sure what exactly the motivation is behind a red triangle (I saw the comment about "nazi concentration camp symbols"). Yes, that was it. > Lastly, facebook probably removes ads all the time for all sort of minor reasons. Is there a good reason to believe this was somehow malicious? Because they said so. > A Facebook spokesperson told Media Matters in a statement that “We removed these posts and ads for violating our policy against organized hate. Our policy prohibits using a banned hate group's symbol to identify political prisoners without the context that condemns or discusses the symbol.” - https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/facebook-let-trump-campaign-run-ads-inverted-red-triangle-infamous-nazi-symbol https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/facebook-let-trump-cam...
6y ago

zucker42 6y ago

How antifacist became a dirty word in the minds of many Americans is baffling to me. Also, the fact that people are taking the antifa stuff seriously and Republicans are just parroting Trump on the matter is ridiculous. I just skimmed through all the articles here: https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/crime/antifa https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/crime/antifa and the only one that is even specific about an alleged instance of organized violence is an incident in Texas[1][2] and is decidedly bereft of actual evidence. It's pretty clear that people are looking to blame the "other side" for any and all violence. [1] https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-investigating-links-between-antifa-and-looting https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-investigating-links-between... [2] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Antifa-arrests-protest-george-floyd-cops-3-arrests-15334331.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/politics/texas/article/Anti...

rascul 6y ago
> How antifacist became a dirty word in the minds of many Americans is baffling to me. Also, the fact that people are taking the antifa stuff seriously and Republicans are just parroting Trump on the matter is ridiculous. There seems to be a history of Antifa inciting violence in recent years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Notable...

cpr 6y ago

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273704510808965120 https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1273704510808965...

jeffdavis 6y ago

Strategically, this allows Trump to get his ad taken down by facebook, which has previously not done so. That means he now can claim some kind of conspiracy against him. If the story does not grow big, that's the end of it, and a small win for Trump. If the story grows, then it will become less about the symbol (which is at least somewhat obscure) and more about antifa. The more the conversation is about antifa, and the less about unnecessary police violence, the better for Trump. Honestly, I don't think FB should have taken down the ad. I don't see what it really accomplishes. The fact is that Trump has his own audience. The more media companies fight for control, the more they just make a silo of themselves and prevent any real trust or dialogue between voters in opposite parties.

loopz 6y ago

So why the ads. Is it because he's facist? Why rally for hate at all. What's the end game? More violence?

asdff 6y ago
To rally the base and win the election in November. His most rabid and prolifically viral political base lives off of the loaded tweets and ads posted using the platform of the President of the United States. This isn't the first time something like this happened with Trump, nor will it be the last.

tal8d 6y ago

Well I'm not seeing any mention of it here, so let me fill you in on a little secret: this symbol is commonly used in cartography to indicate a confirmed hazard. Anyone with any time in the military or emergency management (and maybe hazmat) should immediately recognize the symbol. Fact check it yourself: search "NATO landmine symbol". You'll find the symbol in use by the UN and NATO, you'll also find standards that dictate orientation, fill style, and scaling factors. It has absolutely nothing to do with Nazi concentration camps, and the amount of hyperventilating over secret Nazi symbols is really disturbing. I don't know which is worse, that this may largely be performative outrage, or if it is genuine derangement. Ask yourself: why haven't you been told this already? Why is the media winding people up instead of fact checking? Why is facebook outsourcing this disgusting task to the ADL? Also: I predicted this just yesterday :)