27 ms·

Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

224 points by ageitgey 6y ago

ageitgey 6y ago
N=43 (17 given vitamins vs 26 not) Highlights: "Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006)." "DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supports further larger randomized control trials to ascertain the full benefit of DMB in ameliorating COVID-19 severity." So while this is too small of a study to do anything but call for bigger studies, its additional evidence that vitamin deficiency may play a role in COVID-19 severity. Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that.
- Foivos 6y ago
  > Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway.... Could you elaborate on that? I thought that taking vitamin supplements without a recommendation from a doctor is just a way to have very expensive piss. Most of the things that get in, are removed from the body without being absorbed.
  - ses1984 6y ago
    If you're deficient in something, your body probably up-regulates absorption. You can get higher quality vitamins with forms that are more easily absorbed, for example chelated magnesium instead of magnesium oxide. That said, I thought the evidence actually pointed to higher all cause mortality in people who take vitamins.
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      > I thought the evidence actually pointed to higher all cause mortality in people who take vitamins. Citation absolutely needed The caveat is excessive consumption of Vitamin A (and maybe others), in some specific circumstances. Keyword: excessive
      - ses1984 6y ago
        See my other reply please.
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      If you have a study that shows higher all cause mortality please link it. My hypothesis would be that healthy people don't take vitamins because they never saw the need, putting already sick people in the second category. I doubt that taking vitamins can actually do much harm in low doses.
      - ses1984 6y ago
        I just Googled "vitamins lead to higher all cause mortality." First result: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111010173019.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111010173019.h... >After adjustment, use of multivitamins, vitamin B6, folic acid, iron, magnesium, zinc and copper, were all associated with increased risk of death in the study population. The top three links showed association between beta carotene supplementation and risk of death. A little further down, a study showing "higher plasma concentrations of vitamin B12 were associated with a 25% increased adjusted risk of all-cause mortality per 1-SD increase" https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2758742 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... >The use of multivitamins overall was associated with 2.4% increased absolute risk for death (hazard ratio [HR], 1.06; 95% confidence interval, 1.02 - 1.10). https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/751462#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20multivitamins%20overall,substantially%20between%201986%20and%202004 https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/751462#:~:text=The%20us.... The conclusion I personally draw from all this is: don't take a multi vitamin. Don't take any vitamins unless I have a good reason like a tested deficiency. If I think I could benefit from a supplement then I try to increase it in my diet instead.
        raverbashing 6y ago
        The risk of excessive iron is known and not new If you read that link you'll see the findings for iron and calcium were replicated. (Not to mention this article is basically referencing a different article which is somewhere else, so we're missing the context) The B12 issue, as the own article mentions, is not necessarily connected to a dietary excess consumption > Participants within the highest quartile of vitamin B12 plasma concentrations (>455.41 pg/mL) were more likely to be older and have higher BMI and blood pressure.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    An ICU is more expensive than expensive piss But sure, you could be extra sure that your Vit-D/Zinc/Mg (and other vitamins) levels are low by going to the doctor now, doing an exam and waiting for the results to come back. Or you could go through your diet and estimate your nutritional intake and see if anything is missing (a lot of apps do that calculation)
    - macintux 6y ago
      > ...and see if anything is missing With the caveat that (word of mouth, not researched) the FDA recommendations on vitamin D are substantially too low.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 6y ago
    I agree, you don’t need a supplement. I get regular checkups. I’ve never had a deficiency in any vitamin except D.
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      Vitamin D deficiency is very common especially in people who spend their daytime hours inside and also in dark skinned people living in northern latitudes. In the UK doctors recommend everyone takes a vitamin D supplement in the winter.
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        I've never heard this, where is it recommended?
        partyboat1586 6y ago
        My Doctor told me. Also see the NHS page https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-....
        pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        Very useful, thank you.
        nunb 6y ago
        This is simply a result of how vitamin D is manufactured, and the lack of sunlight in northern latitudes.
        pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        It was specifically the NHS advice I was questioning, I'm aware of the basic cause. Thanks.
        DanBC 6y ago
  - ChrisRR 6y ago
    I don't know what you count as very expensive. Here in the UK, daily multivitamins are like £3 for 100
  - MichaelApproved 6y ago
    One issue with vitamin is they don’t get absorbed well without certain foods. Worse yet, some foods could even block absorption. Calcium absorption is one of the trickier vitamins to get tight. If you’re taking vitamins specifically because you’re deficient, make sure you’re eating complimentary foods with them.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      Disease is also something that can block absorption which I feel a lot of people overlook. If you are vitamin D deficient, that may not be just because you don't get enough sun or need to take pills. This could be a sign of a kidney problem. If you are magnesium deficient, maybe it is a sign of a kidney problem. If you are B12 deficient, maybe it is a sign of a kidney problem. If you have a normal diet and you have deficiencies, don't just look to supplements.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Most people are deficient in one vitamin or another. Take magnesium as an example, 50% of people in the US are deficient[0]. Get your blood work done and get targeted supplements. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/
  - saiya-jin 6y ago
    > very expensive piss What I do after working out (say 4x/week) or after hard day in the mountains during weekends is to take 1/2 a tablet of multivitamin after big meal. So around 5-7x/week. That tablet has 100% of all the vitamins and 30% of the minerals. So I get 50% of vitamins, 15% of the minerals with a lot of fluids and fats, after proper effort on the body. This mix should be helping the body regenerate all the damage done by the workout. I can't get any overdose or even come close to it, unless I would be eating some very specific food like some seafood (and then overdose would come from it anyway, regardless of multivitamins). The multivitamins I buy (cheap Swiss ones) are cca 3.5$ per 20 tablets, giving the price per dosage/piss somewhere around 8 cents. I certainly have much more expensive pissing activities even from cheapest beers, sodas (which I don't generally drink) or basically any liquid apart from tap water.
  - Nursie 6y ago
    Americans have the most expensive piss in the world. Yes, unless you have good reason to think you have a deficiency, supplements are a waste of time and money. And even if you do have reason to think you might have a deficiency there are often better (usually dietary) ways to address it.
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      Americans have expensive piss because of the expensive pharmacological drugs you take. Vitamins are very cheap.
      - Nursie 6y ago
        What's this "you" business? I'm not American. Vitamins absolutely contribute to this, and many/most you take will be excreted again.
  - yomly 6y ago
    This is a misnomer according to a recent guest on the Joe Rogan podcast. Granted that might not be the best source, I reflected on that and the chemistry makes sense. Vitamins primarily will leach out via osmosis. Osmosis works by gradients. This probably means an exponential decay of absorption relative to concentration and as you consume more, your body will waste progressively more and uptake will be less efficient per unit mass. But it's not boolean/binary - your body doesn't suddenly stop everything after an arbitrary cutoff. There's an elegance to this - it means there is a lot of leeway in consumption so it is hard to overdose. But it also means that if you "need" to increase bioavailability of a water soluble vitamin, you can simply consume more orally and it will increase. It just becomes progressively more wasteful to do via that means. (IV is more efficient in this manner) So I suppose wasteful is not the same as pointless/useless
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      Dr Rhonda Patrick was the guest if anyone is interested. Worth watching with paper and pen (or digital equivalent).
      - nradov 6y ago
        Show notes are here. https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/jre-1474 https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/jre-1474
        0-_-0 6y ago
        2 interesting references to vitamin D studies: 00:29:32 - In the Philippines, every standard deviation increase in serum vitamin D was associated with an 8 times more likely chance to have a mild rather than severe COVID-19 outcome and a 20 times more likely chance to have a mild rather than critical outcome. 00:30:37 - In Indonesia, 98.9% of patients with vitamin D deficiency died, 88% of patients with vitamin D insufficiency died but only 4% of patients with sufficient vitamin D died.
        nradov 6y ago
  - ageitgey 6y ago
    It depends on where you live. Some places in northern latitudes such as the UK recommend everyone take daily Vitamin D supplements due to low UV exposure in the late-fall/winter/early-spring. See https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-... As far as if that means you take that as a multi-vitamin pill vs D3 supplements alone I guess is up to the individual. But either option only costs a few dollars/pounds. Maybe I was a little loose with language saying multi-vitamin.
    - Foivos 6y ago
      This is a known / common deficiency. But does it make sense to blindly take Vitamin C for example?
- axegon_ 6y ago
  Despite my somewhat limited knowledge in biology, my intuition was telling me that the number of patients seems way too small to come to definitive conclusions. Mind you, if Vitamin-D, magnesium and B12 play a role, that's good news for me: I've been very strict about those 3 in the past 2 years(and coincidentally loaded up my magnesium stash yesterday).
  - rrmm 6y ago
    43 is a reasonable number to start with (it gives you some power wrt sample variance, but you have to pay attention to randomization). It might give you some information if the intervention were really, really bad for patients or really really good. (So it could be used to establish possible harms). But definitely not useful farther than that except to justify larger studies. I'm still hoping we catch a break one of these days.
  - drocer88 6y ago
    The authors address the issue of small sample size in the Discusson section: "This study was conducted under difficult dynamic circumstances and is thus limited by the small sample size, and the lack of systematic biologic measures to support its findings. It is however a proof-of-principle effort with very promising results. Our findings would need to be further validated in a well-designed randomized study."
  - snikeris 6y ago
    Magnesium is something I've recently been interested in as well. Surprisingly, you don't find it in many multivitamins, or if you do, it's in small quantities. My guess is that it would make the multivitamin too large if it were included. Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg, but most people don't eat enough of those.
    - axegon_ 6y ago
      Yep, but even with green vegetables, you'll struggle to get anywhere near the daily recommendation, around 400mg per adult. And that might be significantly more if you are active in some sports for muscle recovery. Personally I can feel the difference given that I exercise daily and I do a 20000 step walks every morning. But yeah, I rely on supplements, which is kind of the easy way out. And even the very good ones are pretty cheap(mine set me back around 20 euros and go for 3 months).
- rrmm 6y ago
  Yeah this seems like it'd be much easier to roll out on wide spread basis than HCQ. With an appropriate caution about dosage consulting a doc before making any changes, they're all water soluble. That there statement about the limits of the study should be taken to heart. People seem to get too fixated on the first results they hear and hold on to them more strongly than subsequent results which can often provide better data to make decisions on.
  - smilespray 6y ago
    Surely Vitamin D is fat soluble?
    - rrmm 6y ago
      Ahh you are right, thanks for the correction. D looks like upper tolerable dosage is around 4000IU/day for 9+ years old. Some studies apparently see overt toxicity after several months of 50000IU/day dosages.
- dwheeler 6y ago
  The number of people in the study is too small to really make much in the way of definitive conclusions. But it is certainly enough that a larger study should occur. In the meantime, since vitamins are cheap and not dangerous at these doses, it seems a reasonable measure to go ahead and take them. They might help, there's weak evidence to suggest that they might, and they shouldn't hurt. However, it's important not to overdose. I know that at least vitamin D is dangerous if overdosed. Most people as they get older are low in vitamin D anyway. In my mind this is something like masks were months ago. Maybe they help, maybe they don't, but the risk of wearing a mask or taking vitamins is pretty negligible, and there are common-sense reasons to believe they might be helpful. Until better experimental results are available, you should use common sense approaches to reduce your risks. They might not work, but the harm of doing them is negligible.
  - j-conn 6y ago
    One thing to keep in mind in the US is that dietary supplements aren’t regulated by the FDA. Consumers have to place a lot of trust in the manufacturer that their product is free from potentially harmful contaminants.
  - eloff 6y ago
    You're not going to overdose vitamin D at 1000 IU. Do your own research, but the RDA is too low for people living in the northern hemisphere. I'm a computer programmer living in Canada, I take 3000 IU a day. A good sun exposure can produce 50,000 IU, not all of which gets absorbed. If you have too much over a long period of time it can cause calcification. You're probably not going to experience that under 10000 IU a day. Again, do your own research. I'm not an expert in this field.
  - jerf 6y ago
    If we're going to call out one of those three vitamins for overdose potential, it's the magnesium you should be calling out, not the vitamin D. Accidental vitamin D overdose seems to be a non-issue, almost (but not quite) entirely theoretical. Clinically-significant doses of magnesium can have real effects on the body, though, even in the "safe range"; it affects your heart fairly strongly, for instance, and needs to be in balance with some other nutrients. Even if you are in fact in need of magnesium supplementation, you can trigger some heart issues if you supplement magnesium without the other nutrients you need to go with it. This won't happen to most people, but I'd guess it's a 3-4 more orders of magnitude serious concern than vitamin D overdose.
- hannob 6y ago
  > Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. Depending on the composition of vitamins it can be harmful [1]. [1] https://www.cochrane.org/CD007176/LIVER_antioxidant-supplements-for-prevention-of-mortality-in-healthy-participants-and-patients-with-various-diseases https://www.cochrane.org/CD007176/LIVER_antioxidant-suppleme...
  - ageitgey 6y ago
    I should have been more specific on location and vitamin. The UK government recommends everyone in the UK take daily supplements of Vitamin D during half of the year due to low sun exposure. It was a typo to say "multi-vitamin".
  - MrStonedOne 6y ago
    > There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. I've heard this, before, i've even seen studies linked. The study you linked shows a 3-4% increase in morality rate, but with a error margin of 95%, that, uhh, doesn't add up to much. The studies commonly linked usually test healthy people without any vitamin deficiencies in order to see if giving somebody "extra" vitamins has any benefit. A worthless measure when, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, 40% of people have a vitamin deficiency of some kind.
    - scott_s 6y ago
      It's not a worthless measure, as the recommendation from the top comment, and a widespread belief is that a daily multivitamin is useful for everyone. The important takeaway from this study is not the potential harm - which very well may just be noise - but that there is no obvious benefit.
- Vysero 6y ago
  Some scientists were calling for these studies on YouTube but those videos were all banned sadly... I was lucky enough to catch one of them before they got banned though.
- alexbanks 6y ago
  > Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. I'm finding it kind of shocking how many people are disputing the value of basic multi-vitamins. It feels like we're being contrarian just for the sake of it. Take a multivitamin. Worst case, your health stays the same and you pee out what you don't need. Best case, maybe you're less susceptible to the harsher symptoms of covid. Seems like a win/win.
  - neuronic 6y ago
    No, the worst case is you throw money away but I guess the HN crowd doesn't really grasp that there are people who have to consider each dollar/euro/etc... At least take vitamin supplements with proven effect and decent uptake and not garbage filler pills designed to collect snake oil money.
    - alexbanks 6y ago
      That's a valid point that I've yet to see anyone in this thread make. The arguments against vitamin supplementation in this thread seem to be challenging the validity of supplementation, which was the point of my post.
- lostmsu 6y ago
  You can help to increase sample size by participating: https://home-trial.losttech.software/ https://home-trial.losttech.software/
- bagacrap 6y ago
  yeah, don't take a multi. The amounts of D and C they put in those things are far lower than what you need to get immunity benefits.
Spooky23 6y ago
Was this known early on about COVID? Early on in the lockdown I noticed that these vitamins were among the kind of weird items completely cleared out of stores. People were very selective... initially all FHD laptops and Chromebooks were gone, along with power strips, ibuprofen, hair clippers, etc.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  Vitamin D has been thrown around a lot from the get-go, probably because of its value against other forms of coronavirus including SARS and viral infection in general. My layman's understanding is that supplementation hasn't shown to be effective, meaning D deficiency may be a co-indicator. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7189189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7189189/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308600/#:~:text=Newer%20evidence%20suggests%20that%20it,influenza%20and%20respiratory%20tract%20infection https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308600/#:~:tex....
  - snikeris 6y ago
    Perhaps Vitamin D status is just an indicator of adequate sunshine on the skin. This would explain why people with low vitamin D are more susceptible, yet supplementation with Vitamin D is ineffective.
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      I've seen two theories floated: 1. Vitamin D as a side effect of sun exposure is not itself the important indicator. Instead, some other biological response increases immune response simultaneously. Hence, D supplementation is itself copying the wrong response. 2. Vitamin D deficiency is caused by illness, hence it actually doesn't affect mortality and the relationship is not casual.
      - snikeris 6y ago
        My money is on 1. Vitamin D deficiency is caused by lack of sunlight. I'm skeptical of doctors telling me to avoid the sun and take a pill instead.
barbegal 6y ago
The methodology mentions nothing about randomization so its unclear if there was any selection bias here. If you look a table 2, the control group was on average 6 years older and had more co-morbidities. This suggests that there was some selection bias and that other undocumented factors could have greatly affected this experiment. Doing multi-variate analysis with such a small sample size gives rise to huge uncertainties. In all, this study is only very weak evidence.
- arghzzz 6y ago
  However, taking 3 vitamins is almost entirely harmless.
  - RL_Quine 6y ago
    Many are toxic (vitamin D included) in unsuitable amounts, that’s probably too strong of a statement.
    - Femur 6y ago
      What amount of vitamin D is toxic?
    - cj 6y ago
      The study mentions 1,000 IU D3 dosage. A quick google turns up a rough figure of 60,000 IU "daily for multiple months" can become toxic. You're probably right, most things taken at 100x the normal dose for long period of time are toxic. (Water included)
      - caseysoftware 6y ago
        The largest dosage of D3 I can find on Amazon is 5000 IU in a 240 capsule bottle. To take 60000 IU, you'd have to take a dozen capsules daily, getting a new bottle every 20 days, probably multiple times. While possible, it does seem unlikely.
        6y ago
mikece 6y ago
I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to this treatment as well as their vitamin and mineral levels (however that is measured) I think it would be more interesting to see how such a vitamin boost affects those who are vitamin starved versus those who were taking a "decent amount" of vitamins but where given a boost because of an illness. It just seems the more we learn in this field the more it shows us what we don't know.
- Traubenfuchs 6y ago
  You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:text=B12%20deficiency%20is%20often%20perceived,are%20deficient%20in%20this%20nutrient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:.... - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/#:~:text=42%25%20Percent%20of%20Americans%20Are%20Vitamin%20D%20Deficient https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america.... - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20prevalence%20of%20iron%20deficiency,a%20gastrointestinal%20cancer%20when%20evaluated https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20p.... My unscientific conclusion is that the vast majority of people world-wide probably suffer from at least one and probably more significant nutrient deficiency. With that we are wasting our "performance potential" and, less capitalistic, our "well-being potential". The lack of any of just those nutrients I looked up can cause anything from debilitating brain fog, over physical and mental deterioration to numerous physical ailments... Yet for most of them, taking them in excess causes the exact same problem. If I was filthy rich I would get nutrient levels measured once a week. (-;
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
rmelhem 6y ago
just a personal note, I had many many respiratory tract problems - tonsillitis, flu, cold, at least 3 times a year. I always thought it was something natural, given the seasonality of these diseases, especially in winter. but after a routine blood test, my doctor prescribed vitamin D because mine was way below recommended. since 2017, when i started taking vitamin D supplementation, only a mild flu is what I had in 3 years, so to me that article is no surprise, of course in a personal experience level.
- ageitgey 6y ago
  There were big studies in 2016/2017 that demonstrated the connection between Vitamin D and lowering the incidence of colds and other respiratory infections. This led to some governments (like the UK) recommending universal daily supplements for all citizens during the winter months. See https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170216110002.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170216110002.h...
  - rmelhem 6y ago
    cool, that's great. will check it, thanks!
stevespang 6y ago
only 17 patients received DMB and 26 patients did not. Not many patients, not a double blind, randomized study, cannot see much validity in this.
PudgePacket 6y ago
> Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD I've seen multiple sources say that 1000 IU of vit D is usually insufficient to boost levels, with suggestions of up to 5000 a day. My mothers doctor put her up to 2000 a day because 1000 did nothing to her levels, which were already low.
- carlosfvp 6y ago
  How did the doctor know her vitamin levels were low? I once asked a doctor if the vitamins in our body can be measured, and he said it can't be done, is not something you can measure.
  - scarlac 6y ago
    It can be measured with a blood test: > The most accurate way to measure how much vitamin D is in your body is the 25-hydroxy vitamin D blood test. https://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency
  - ryder9 6y ago
    Blood test, had it done myself and found low levels of B12 & D, for which I took initially large doses and now take over the counter supplements
  - gnulinux 6y ago
    I regularly blood-test my vitamin D and B levels since I live indoors a lot (not an outside person) and have a slight vit. B absorption problem (I don't absorb it as efficiently as normal people) so I need to take supplements even if I eat healthily.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    It depends on what vitamin or mineral you are testing.
- _ink_ 6y ago
  Could you link them? I got me tested. My vitamin D level is low, but my doctor told me 1.000 IU per day is too much and I should take 1.000 IU only every other day.
michaelterryio 6y ago
There is a ton of correlational evidence of low vitamin D and C19. And it would be easy to ignore that as having cause and effect weaknesses. But we also have dozens of RCTs showing that vitamin D supplementation suppresses respiratory infections! Folks always act like we just take this study in isolation. That’s not how it should work. The totality of the evidence is quite strong for vitamin D versus C19.
stefantalpalaru 6y ago
> Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD, magnesium 150mg OD and vitamin B12 500mcg OD (DMB) upon admission if they did not require oxygen therapy. [...] > Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006). Is this a joke? Patients not requiring oxygen upon admission were less likely to require it later on and they try to pin it on their snake oil?
_0ffh 6y ago
PSA: Before supplementing Vitamin D, do some research on calcification and Vitamin K2. Or you can trust a random person from the internet and supplement 40mcg K2 mk7 all-trans per every 1000IU of Vitamin D. That seems to be around the usual amount used in studies [1]. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate factor for high Vitamin D dosages of multiple tenths of thousands IU. Personally, I'd be wary of such dosages anyway. [1] https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Schuetzt-Vitamin-D-vor-Covid-19-4704193.html?seite=2 https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Schuetzt-Vitamin-D-vor-Covi...
- neuronic 6y ago
  Why would you be wary? 15min of full body sunexposure will net you ~20,000 IU. Supplementing 8-10,000 IU will not bring you into danger territory by a LONG shot.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Getting vitamin D from the sun is different than from supplements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D#Long-term_effects_of_supplementary_oral_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D#Long-term_e...
jungletime 6y ago
One more reason to go for a walk everyday outside for at least 60 minutes.
- vmurthy 6y ago
  From the article linked above [0], it appears that 20 minutes is good enough. My GP mentioned something similar to me a couple of weeks ago. The interesting point is _when_ to go out for 20 mins walk and for where I stay (Sydney,Australia), the timing seems to be this : Noon during winter Before 10 AM or after 3 PM during summer [0]https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php
robocat 6y ago
It looks like the preprint was published 6 weeks after the study finished (15 April 2020). It is a real shame we can’t get our science moving faster (maybe slow so we don’t break things?).
- vmurthy 6y ago
  Perhaps it's the fact that breaking things in science leads to really bad long term effects? Think what would happen if we rushed through a medicine for cancer and it had an effect after a few hundred thousand patients have started taking it.
kaycebasques 6y ago
FYI this site provides helpful "top 10" lists of foods that naturally contain a lot of vitamins and minerals (or are fortified). E.g. here's the Vitamin D list: https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php P.S. I learned a fascinating factoid from that Vitamin D list. You might be aware that standing out in the sun for 20 minutes is a good way to generate Vitamin D. Supposedly the same process happens by leaving crimini mushrooms out in the sun for 20 minutes before eating them.
gshotwell 6y ago
Here's a github with various vitamin D covid resources, to my knowledge this is all of the relevant preprints and publications. https://github.com/GShotwell/vitamin_d_covid https://github.com/GShotwell/vitamin_d_covid
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kpfleger 6y ago
Every time a new D & C19 item comes up, 75+% of the comments are already addressed in my review: http://agingbiotech.info/vitamindcovid19/ http://agingbiotech.info/vitamindcovid19/ This new study is already incorporated there with a couple paragraphs of good discussion in strengths, weaknesses, importance, etc. Broadly, it's consistent with prior evidence but significant for being the 1st controlled trial (even if not random, which would be unethical at this point and thus should be impossible now). It's too bad the control group had so much more comorbidity. Hopefully their multivariate model is trustable for taking baseline differences in the 2 arms into account. The effect size is huge (OR=0.15). Other common comment topics here (correlation vs causation, sun exposure, burden of proof for correcting deficiency, etc.) are all covered in the review already. If something important isn't covered, email me.

224 points by ageitgey 6y ago

N=43 (17 given vitamins vs 26 not) Highlights: "Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006)." "DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supports further larger randomized control trials to ascertain the full benefit of DMB in ameliorating COVID-19 severity." So while this is too small of a study to do anything but call for bigger studies, its additional evidence that vitamin deficiency may play a role in COVID-19 severity. Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that.

Foivos 6y ago
> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway.... Could you elaborate on that? I thought that taking vitamin supplements without a recommendation from a doctor is just a way to have very expensive piss. Most of the things that get in, are removed from the body without being absorbed.
- ses1984 6y ago
  If you're deficient in something, your body probably up-regulates absorption. You can get higher quality vitamins with forms that are more easily absorbed, for example chelated magnesium instead of magnesium oxide. That said, I thought the evidence actually pointed to higher all cause mortality in people who take vitamins.
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    > I thought the evidence actually pointed to higher all cause mortality in people who take vitamins. Citation absolutely needed The caveat is excessive consumption of Vitamin A (and maybe others), in some specific circumstances. Keyword: excessive
    - ses1984 6y ago
      See my other reply please.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    If you have a study that shows higher all cause mortality please link it. My hypothesis would be that healthy people don't take vitamins because they never saw the need, putting already sick people in the second category. I doubt that taking vitamins can actually do much harm in low doses.
    - ses1984 6y ago
      I just Googled "vitamins lead to higher all cause mortality." First result: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111010173019.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111010173019.h... >After adjustment, use of multivitamins, vitamin B6, folic acid, iron, magnesium, zinc and copper, were all associated with increased risk of death in the study population. The top three links showed association between beta carotene supplementation and risk of death. A little further down, a study showing "higher plasma concentrations of vitamin B12 were associated with a 25% increased adjusted risk of all-cause mortality per 1-SD increase" https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2758742 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... >The use of multivitamins overall was associated with 2.4% increased absolute risk for death (hazard ratio [HR], 1.06; 95% confidence interval, 1.02 - 1.10). https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/751462#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20multivitamins%20overall,substantially%20between%201986%20and%202004 https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/751462#:~:text=The%20us.... The conclusion I personally draw from all this is: don't take a multi vitamin. Don't take any vitamins unless I have a good reason like a tested deficiency. If I think I could benefit from a supplement then I try to increase it in my diet instead.
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        The risk of excessive iron is known and not new If you read that link you'll see the findings for iron and calcium were replicated. (Not to mention this article is basically referencing a different article which is somewhere else, so we're missing the context) The B12 issue, as the own article mentions, is not necessarily connected to a dietary excess consumption > Participants within the highest quartile of vitamin B12 plasma concentrations (>455.41 pg/mL) were more likely to be older and have higher BMI and blood pressure.
- raverbashing 6y ago
  An ICU is more expensive than expensive piss But sure, you could be extra sure that your Vit-D/Zinc/Mg (and other vitamins) levels are low by going to the doctor now, doing an exam and waiting for the results to come back. Or you could go through your diet and estimate your nutritional intake and see if anything is missing (a lot of apps do that calculation)
  - macintux 6y ago
    > ...and see if anything is missing With the caveat that (word of mouth, not researched) the FDA recommendations on vitamin D are substantially too low.
- 2muchcoffeeman 6y ago
  I agree, you don’t need a supplement. I get regular checkups. I’ve never had a deficiency in any vitamin except D.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Vitamin D deficiency is very common especially in people who spend their daytime hours inside and also in dark skinned people living in northern latitudes. In the UK doctors recommend everyone takes a vitamin D supplement in the winter.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      I've never heard this, where is it recommended?
      - partyboat1586 6y ago
        My Doctor told me. Also see the NHS page https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-....
        pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        Very useful, thank you.
      - nunb 6y ago
        This is simply a result of how vitamin D is manufactured, and the lack of sunlight in northern latitudes.
        pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        It was specifically the NHS advice I was questioning, I'm aware of the basic cause. Thanks.
      - DanBC 6y ago
- ChrisRR 6y ago
  I don't know what you count as very expensive. Here in the UK, daily multivitamins are like £3 for 100
- MichaelApproved 6y ago
  One issue with vitamin is they don’t get absorbed well without certain foods. Worse yet, some foods could even block absorption. Calcium absorption is one of the trickier vitamins to get tight. If you’re taking vitamins specifically because you’re deficient, make sure you’re eating complimentary foods with them.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    Disease is also something that can block absorption which I feel a lot of people overlook. If you are vitamin D deficient, that may not be just because you don't get enough sun or need to take pills. This could be a sign of a kidney problem. If you are magnesium deficient, maybe it is a sign of a kidney problem. If you are B12 deficient, maybe it is a sign of a kidney problem. If you have a normal diet and you have deficiencies, don't just look to supplements.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Most people are deficient in one vitamin or another. Take magnesium as an example, 50% of people in the US are deficient[0]. Get your blood work done and get targeted supplements. [0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  > very expensive piss What I do after working out (say 4x/week) or after hard day in the mountains during weekends is to take 1/2 a tablet of multivitamin after big meal. So around 5-7x/week. That tablet has 100% of all the vitamins and 30% of the minerals. So I get 50% of vitamins, 15% of the minerals with a lot of fluids and fats, after proper effort on the body. This mix should be helping the body regenerate all the damage done by the workout. I can't get any overdose or even come close to it, unless I would be eating some very specific food like some seafood (and then overdose would come from it anyway, regardless of multivitamins). The multivitamins I buy (cheap Swiss ones) are cca 3.5$ per 20 tablets, giving the price per dosage/piss somewhere around 8 cents. I certainly have much more expensive pissing activities even from cheapest beers, sodas (which I don't generally drink) or basically any liquid apart from tap water.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Americans have the most expensive piss in the world. Yes, unless you have good reason to think you have a deficiency, supplements are a waste of time and money. And even if you do have reason to think you might have a deficiency there are often better (usually dietary) ways to address it.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Americans have expensive piss because of the expensive pharmacological drugs you take. Vitamins are very cheap.
    - Nursie 6y ago
      What's this "you" business? I'm not American. Vitamins absolutely contribute to this, and many/most you take will be excreted again.
- yomly 6y ago
  This is a misnomer according to a recent guest on the Joe Rogan podcast. Granted that might not be the best source, I reflected on that and the chemistry makes sense. Vitamins primarily will leach out via osmosis. Osmosis works by gradients. This probably means an exponential decay of absorption relative to concentration and as you consume more, your body will waste progressively more and uptake will be less efficient per unit mass. But it's not boolean/binary - your body doesn't suddenly stop everything after an arbitrary cutoff. There's an elegance to this - it means there is a lot of leeway in consumption so it is hard to overdose. But it also means that if you "need" to increase bioavailability of a water soluble vitamin, you can simply consume more orally and it will increase. It just becomes progressively more wasteful to do via that means. (IV is more efficient in this manner) So I suppose wasteful is not the same as pointless/useless
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Dr Rhonda Patrick was the guest if anyone is interested. Worth watching with paper and pen (or digital equivalent).
    - nradov 6y ago
      Show notes are here. https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/jre-1474 https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/jre-1474
      - 0-_-0 6y ago
        2 interesting references to vitamin D studies: 00:29:32 - In the Philippines, every standard deviation increase in serum vitamin D was associated with an 8 times more likely chance to have a mild rather than severe COVID-19 outcome and a 20 times more likely chance to have a mild rather than critical outcome. 00:30:37 - In Indonesia, 98.9% of patients with vitamin D deficiency died, 88% of patients with vitamin D insufficiency died but only 4% of patients with sufficient vitamin D died.
        nradov 6y ago
- ageitgey 6y ago
  It depends on where you live. Some places in northern latitudes such as the UK recommend everyone take daily Vitamin D supplements due to low UV exposure in the late-fall/winter/early-spring. See https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-... As far as if that means you take that as a multi-vitamin pill vs D3 supplements alone I guess is up to the individual. But either option only costs a few dollars/pounds. Maybe I was a little loose with language saying multi-vitamin.
  - Foivos 6y ago
    This is a known / common deficiency. But does it make sense to blindly take Vitamin C for example?
axegon_ 6y ago
Despite my somewhat limited knowledge in biology, my intuition was telling me that the number of patients seems way too small to come to definitive conclusions. Mind you, if Vitamin-D, magnesium and B12 play a role, that's good news for me: I've been very strict about those 3 in the past 2 years(and coincidentally loaded up my magnesium stash yesterday).
- rrmm 6y ago
  43 is a reasonable number to start with (it gives you some power wrt sample variance, but you have to pay attention to randomization). It might give you some information if the intervention were really, really bad for patients or really really good. (So it could be used to establish possible harms). But definitely not useful farther than that except to justify larger studies. I'm still hoping we catch a break one of these days.
- drocer88 6y ago
  The authors address the issue of small sample size in the Discusson section: "This study was conducted under difficult dynamic circumstances and is thus limited by the small sample size, and the lack of systematic biologic measures to support its findings. It is however a proof-of-principle effort with very promising results. Our findings would need to be further validated in a well-designed randomized study."
- snikeris 6y ago
  Magnesium is something I've recently been interested in as well. Surprisingly, you don't find it in many multivitamins, or if you do, it's in small quantities. My guess is that it would make the multivitamin too large if it were included. Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg, but most people don't eat enough of those.
  - axegon_ 6y ago
    Yep, but even with green vegetables, you'll struggle to get anywhere near the daily recommendation, around 400mg per adult. And that might be significantly more if you are active in some sports for muscle recovery. Personally I can feel the difference given that I exercise daily and I do a 20000 step walks every morning. But yeah, I rely on supplements, which is kind of the easy way out. And even the very good ones are pretty cheap(mine set me back around 20 euros and go for 3 months).
rrmm 6y ago
Yeah this seems like it'd be much easier to roll out on wide spread basis than HCQ. With an appropriate caution about dosage consulting a doc before making any changes, they're all water soluble. That there statement about the limits of the study should be taken to heart. People seem to get too fixated on the first results they hear and hold on to them more strongly than subsequent results which can often provide better data to make decisions on.
- smilespray 6y ago
  Surely Vitamin D is fat soluble?
  - rrmm 6y ago
    Ahh you are right, thanks for the correction. D looks like upper tolerable dosage is around 4000IU/day for 9+ years old. Some studies apparently see overt toxicity after several months of 50000IU/day dosages.
dwheeler 6y ago
The number of people in the study is too small to really make much in the way of definitive conclusions. But it is certainly enough that a larger study should occur. In the meantime, since vitamins are cheap and not dangerous at these doses, it seems a reasonable measure to go ahead and take them. They might help, there's weak evidence to suggest that they might, and they shouldn't hurt. However, it's important not to overdose. I know that at least vitamin D is dangerous if overdosed. Most people as they get older are low in vitamin D anyway. In my mind this is something like masks were months ago. Maybe they help, maybe they don't, but the risk of wearing a mask or taking vitamins is pretty negligible, and there are common-sense reasons to believe they might be helpful. Until better experimental results are available, you should use common sense approaches to reduce your risks. They might not work, but the harm of doing them is negligible.
- j-conn 6y ago
  One thing to keep in mind in the US is that dietary supplements aren’t regulated by the FDA. Consumers have to place a lot of trust in the manufacturer that their product is free from potentially harmful contaminants.
- eloff 6y ago
  You're not going to overdose vitamin D at 1000 IU. Do your own research, but the RDA is too low for people living in the northern hemisphere. I'm a computer programmer living in Canada, I take 3000 IU a day. A good sun exposure can produce 50,000 IU, not all of which gets absorbed. If you have too much over a long period of time it can cause calcification. You're probably not going to experience that under 10000 IU a day. Again, do your own research. I'm not an expert in this field.
- jerf 6y ago
  If we're going to call out one of those three vitamins for overdose potential, it's the magnesium you should be calling out, not the vitamin D. Accidental vitamin D overdose seems to be a non-issue, almost (but not quite) entirely theoretical. Clinically-significant doses of magnesium can have real effects on the body, though, even in the "safe range"; it affects your heart fairly strongly, for instance, and needs to be in balance with some other nutrients. Even if you are in fact in need of magnesium supplementation, you can trigger some heart issues if you supplement magnesium without the other nutrients you need to go with it. This won't happen to most people, but I'd guess it's a 3-4 more orders of magnitude serious concern than vitamin D overdose.
hannob 6y ago
> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. Depending on the composition of vitamins it can be harmful [1]. [1] https://www.cochrane.org/CD007176/LIVER_antioxidant-supplements-for-prevention-of-mortality-in-healthy-participants-and-patients-with-various-diseases https://www.cochrane.org/CD007176/LIVER_antioxidant-suppleme...
- ageitgey 6y ago
  I should have been more specific on location and vitamin. The UK government recommends everyone in the UK take daily supplements of Vitamin D during half of the year due to low sun exposure. It was a typo to say "multi-vitamin".
- MrStonedOne 6y ago
  > There is no evidence that taking a basic mulit-vitamin has any benefit for average people. I've heard this, before, i've even seen studies linked. The study you linked shows a 3-4% increase in morality rate, but with a error margin of 95%, that, uhh, doesn't add up to much. The studies commonly linked usually test healthy people without any vitamin deficiencies in order to see if giving somebody "extra" vitamins has any benefit. A worthless measure when, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, 40% of people have a vitamin deficiency of some kind.
  - scott_s 6y ago
    It's not a worthless measure, as the recommendation from the top comment, and a widespread belief is that a daily multivitamin is useful for everyone. The important takeaway from this study is not the potential harm - which very well may just be noise - but that there is no obvious benefit.
Vysero 6y ago
Some scientists were calling for these studies on YouTube but those videos were all banned sadly... I was lucky enough to catch one of them before they got banned though.
alexbanks 6y ago
> Since taking a basic multi-vitamin is good anyway, it seems wise to do that. I'm finding it kind of shocking how many people are disputing the value of basic multi-vitamins. It feels like we're being contrarian just for the sake of it. Take a multivitamin. Worst case, your health stays the same and you pee out what you don't need. Best case, maybe you're less susceptible to the harsher symptoms of covid. Seems like a win/win.
- neuronic 6y ago
  No, the worst case is you throw money away but I guess the HN crowd doesn't really grasp that there are people who have to consider each dollar/euro/etc... At least take vitamin supplements with proven effect and decent uptake and not garbage filler pills designed to collect snake oil money.
  - alexbanks 6y ago
    That's a valid point that I've yet to see anyone in this thread make. The arguments against vitamin supplementation in this thread seem to be challenging the validity of supplementation, which was the point of my post.
lostmsu 6y ago
You can help to increase sample size by participating: https://home-trial.losttech.software/ https://home-trial.losttech.software/
bagacrap 6y ago
yeah, don't take a multi. The amounts of D and C they put in those things are far lower than what you need to get immunity benefits.

Spooky23 6y ago

Was this known early on about COVID? Early on in the lockdown I noticed that these vitamins were among the kind of weird items completely cleared out of stores. People were very selective... initially all FHD laptops and Chromebooks were gone, along with power strips, ibuprofen, hair clippers, etc.

nkozyra 6y ago
Vitamin D has been thrown around a lot from the get-go, probably because of its value against other forms of coronavirus including SARS and viral infection in general. My layman's understanding is that supplementation hasn't shown to be effective, meaning D deficiency may be a co-indicator. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7189189/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7189189/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308600/#:~:text=Newer%20evidence%20suggests%20that%20it,influenza%20and%20respiratory%20tract%20infection https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308600/#:~:tex....
- snikeris 6y ago
  Perhaps Vitamin D status is just an indicator of adequate sunshine on the skin. This would explain why people with low vitamin D are more susceptible, yet supplementation with Vitamin D is ineffective.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    I've seen two theories floated: 1. Vitamin D as a side effect of sun exposure is not itself the important indicator. Instead, some other biological response increases immune response simultaneously. Hence, D supplementation is itself copying the wrong response. 2. Vitamin D deficiency is caused by illness, hence it actually doesn't affect mortality and the relationship is not casual.
    - snikeris 6y ago
      My money is on 1. Vitamin D deficiency is caused by lack of sunlight. I'm skeptical of doctors telling me to avoid the sun and take a pill instead.

barbegal 6y ago

The methodology mentions nothing about randomization so its unclear if there was any selection bias here. If you look a table 2, the control group was on average 6 years older and had more co-morbidities. This suggests that there was some selection bias and that other undocumented factors could have greatly affected this experiment. Doing multi-variate analysis with such a small sample size gives rise to huge uncertainties. In all, this study is only very weak evidence.

arghzzz 6y ago
However, taking 3 vitamins is almost entirely harmless.
- RL_Quine 6y ago
  Many are toxic (vitamin D included) in unsuitable amounts, that’s probably too strong of a statement.
  - Femur 6y ago
    What amount of vitamin D is toxic?
  - cj 6y ago
    The study mentions 1,000 IU D3 dosage. A quick google turns up a rough figure of 60,000 IU "daily for multiple months" can become toxic. You're probably right, most things taken at 100x the normal dose for long period of time are toxic. (Water included)
    - caseysoftware 6y ago
      The largest dosage of D3 I can find on Amazon is 5000 IU in a 240 capsule bottle. To take 60000 IU, you'd have to take a dozen capsules daily, getting a new bottle every 20 days, probably multiple times. While possible, it does seem unlikely.
      - 6y ago

mikece 6y ago

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to this treatment as well as their vitamin and mineral levels (however that is measured) I think it would be more interesting to see how such a vitamin boost affects those who are vitamin starved versus those who were taking a "decent amount" of vitamins but where given a boost because of an illness. It just seems the more we learn in this field the more it shows us what we don't know.

Traubenfuchs 6y ago
You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:text=B12%20deficiency%20is%20often%20perceived,are%20deficient%20in%20this%20nutrient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:.... - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-americans-are-vitamin-d-deficient/#:~:text=42%25%20Percent%20of%20Americans%20Are%20Vitamin%20D%20Deficient https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america.... - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20prevalence%20of%20iron%20deficiency,a%20gastrointestinal%20cancer%20when%20evaluated https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.html#:~:text=The%20p.... My unscientific conclusion is that the vast majority of people world-wide probably suffer from at least one and probably more significant nutrient deficiency. With that we are wasting our "performance potential" and, less capitalistic, our "well-being potential". The lack of any of just those nutrients I looked up can cause anything from debilitating brain fog, over physical and mental deterioration to numerous physical ailments... Yet for most of them, taking them in excess causes the exact same problem. If I was filthy rich I would get nutrient levels measured once a week. (-;
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago

rmelhem 6y ago

just a personal note, I had many many respiratory tract problems - tonsillitis, flu, cold, at least 3 times a year. I always thought it was something natural, given the seasonality of these diseases, especially in winter. but after a routine blood test, my doctor prescribed vitamin D because mine was way below recommended. since 2017, when i started taking vitamin D supplementation, only a mild flu is what I had in 3 years, so to me that article is no surprise, of course in a personal experience level.

ageitgey 6y ago
There were big studies in 2016/2017 that demonstrated the connection between Vitamin D and lowering the incidence of colds and other respiratory infections. This led to some governments (like the UK) recommending universal daily supplements for all citizens during the winter months. See https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170216110002.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170216110002.h...
- rmelhem 6y ago
  cool, that's great. will check it, thanks!

stevespang 6y ago

only 17 patients received DMB and 26 patients did not. Not many patients, not a double blind, randomized study, cannot see much validity in this.

PudgePacket 6y ago

> Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD I've seen multiple sources say that 1000 IU of vit D is usually insufficient to boost levels, with suggestions of up to 5000 a day. My mothers doctor put her up to 2000 a day because 1000 did nothing to her levels, which were already low.

carlosfvp 6y ago
How did the doctor know her vitamin levels were low? I once asked a doctor if the vitamins in our body can be measured, and he said it can't be done, is not something you can measure.
- scarlac 6y ago
  It can be measured with a blood test: > The most accurate way to measure how much vitamin D is in your body is the 25-hydroxy vitamin D blood test. https://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency https://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency
- ryder9 6y ago
  Blood test, had it done myself and found low levels of B12 & D, for which I took initially large doses and now take over the counter supplements
- gnulinux 6y ago
  I regularly blood-test my vitamin D and B levels since I live indoors a lot (not an outside person) and have a slight vit. B absorption problem (I don't absorb it as efficiently as normal people) so I need to take supplements even if I eat healthily.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  It depends on what vitamin or mineral you are testing.
_ink_ 6y ago
Could you link them? I got me tested. My vitamin D level is low, but my doctor told me 1.000 IU per day is too much and I should take 1.000 IU only every other day.

michaelterryio 6y ago

There is a ton of correlational evidence of low vitamin D and C19. And it would be easy to ignore that as having cause and effect weaknesses. But we also have dozens of RCTs showing that vitamin D supplementation suppresses respiratory infections! Folks always act like we just take this study in isolation. That’s not how it should work. The totality of the evidence is quite strong for vitamin D versus C19.

stefantalpalaru 6y ago

> Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD, magnesium 150mg OD and vitamin B12 500mcg OD (DMB) upon admission if they did not require oxygen therapy. [...] > Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006). Is this a joke? Patients not requiring oxygen upon admission were less likely to require it later on and they try to pin it on their snake oil?

_0ffh 6y ago

PSA: Before supplementing Vitamin D, do some research on calcification and Vitamin K2. Or you can trust a random person from the internet and supplement 40mcg K2 mk7 all-trans per every 1000IU of Vitamin D. That seems to be around the usual amount used in studies [1]. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate factor for high Vitamin D dosages of multiple tenths of thousands IU. Personally, I'd be wary of such dosages anyway. [1] https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Schuetzt-Vitamin-D-vor-Covid-19-4704193.html?seite=2 https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Schuetzt-Vitamin-D-vor-Covi...

neuronic 6y ago
Why would you be wary? 15min of full body sunexposure will net you ~20,000 IU. Supplementing 8-10,000 IU will not bring you into danger territory by a LONG shot.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  Getting vitamin D from the sun is different than from supplements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D#Long-term_effects_of_supplementary_oral_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D#Long-term_e...

jungletime 6y ago

One more reason to go for a walk everyday outside for at least 60 minutes.

vmurthy 6y ago
From the article linked above [0], it appears that 20 minutes is good enough. My GP mentioned something similar to me a couple of weeks ago. The interesting point is _when_ to go out for 20 mins walk and for where I stay (Sydney,Australia), the timing seems to be this : Noon during winter Before 10 AM or after 3 PM during summer [0]https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php

robocat 6y ago

It looks like the preprint was published 6 weeks after the study finished (15 April 2020). It is a real shame we can’t get our science moving faster (maybe slow so we don’t break things?).

vmurthy 6y ago
Perhaps it's the fact that breaking things in science leads to really bad long term effects? Think what would happen if we rushed through a medicine for cancer and it had an effect after a few hundred thousand patients have started taking it.

kaycebasques 6y ago

FYI this site provides helpful "top 10" lists of foods that naturally contain a lot of vitamins and minerals (or are fortified). E.g. here's the Vitamin D list: https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php https://www.myfooddata.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php P.S. I learned a fascinating factoid from that Vitamin D list. You might be aware that standing out in the sun for 20 minutes is a good way to generate Vitamin D. Supposedly the same process happens by leaving crimini mushrooms out in the sun for 20 minutes before eating them.

gshotwell 6y ago

Here's a github with various vitamin D covid resources, to my knowledge this is all of the relevant preprints and publications. https://github.com/GShotwell/vitamin_d_covid https://github.com/GShotwell/vitamin_d_covid

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kpfleger 6y ago

Every time a new D & C19 item comes up, 75+% of the comments are already addressed in my review: http://agingbiotech.info/vitamindcovid19/ http://agingbiotech.info/vitamindcovid19/ This new study is already incorporated there with a couple paragraphs of good discussion in strengths, weaknesses, importance, etc. Broadly, it's consistent with prior evidence but significant for being the 1st controlled trial (even if not random, which would be unethical at this point and thus should be impossible now). It's too bad the control group had so much more comorbidity. Hopefully their multivariate model is trustable for taking baseline differences in the 2 arms into account. The effect size is huge (OR=0.15). Other common comment topics here (correlation vs causation, sun exposure, burden of proof for correcting deficiency, etc.) are all covered in the review already. If something important isn't covered, email me.