10 ms·

Since there is no limit on the ceiling, but there is a limit to the floor, things that increase economic opportunity tend to decrease equality. Things that redu

Since there is no limit on the ceiling, but there is a limit to the floor, things that increase economic opportunity tend to decrease equality. Things that reduce economic opportunity tend to increase equality. See e.g. Steven Pinker: "...the most effective ways of reducing inequality are epidemics, massive wars, violent revolutions and state collapse." https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/twenty-questions-steven-pinker/ https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/twenty-questions-steven-p...

ashtonkem 6y ago
I always argue caution about revolution to help the poor, as there are plenty of examples where revolution killed as many poor people as it did aristocrats. Possibly the least flame war worthy example is the French Revolution. While the popular image is of the great terror killing off nobles, the reality is that most of the killings in Paris were either politicians or unfortunate merchants who refused to sell their goods at state mandated prices (at a loss) and were denounced. And that’s not even including the 160,000 mostly poor soldiers killed in the Vendée after peasants revolted against forced conscription, nor the extra 40,000 civilians killed in the brutal reprisals after the war was over. And the kicker? Not only did France eventually get a different king, but most nobles were able re-buy their old estates, and the government even went deeper into debt to compensate various nobles for their confiscated land.
- Supermancho 6y ago
  > I always argue caution about revolution to help the poor, as there are plenty of examples where revolution killed as many poor people as it did aristocrats. Std pareto curve. population of 100. 10 are aristocratic. 90 lower class. if you net equal losses, population 80 and you have increased equality. This is a simplification.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Right, but they didn't net equal losses. The vast majority of people killed in the French Revolution were from the Third Estate.
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      It doesnt have to be equal, just outside the existing curve. Again, conceptually, 1:9 from 100 is an improvement for some abstract measure of equality.
      - BobbyJo 6y ago
        Given the fact that everyone ended up worse off after, this is kind of a pointless thing to attempt to point out.
        OldFatCactus 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution#Long-term_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution#Long-term_im... Just skimming this, it seems the french and the entire world was left better-off actually
        BobbyJo 6y ago
        Fair enough, but I think we could both agree that the revolution was only beneficial because it changed the old system into something more malleable and predictable. The throne is an unstable thing, as is the man in it, and only subject to change on unpredictable whims. If you already exist in a system that is pliable, like a democracy, revolution really wouldn't bring you any of the benefits the French revolution did in the centuries that followed. You'd really only get the downsides. Let's not forget the context of the conversation here an talk about completely different circumstances.
        OldFatCactus 6y ago
        I don't follow what you mean about context, you brought up a bad example and you're moving goal-posts. There have been numerous revolutions with positive benefits to the world at large as well as to the society/culture in which they took place. I would chance to say that the majority were net-positive. If you find yourself scared of revolution, you should maybe take an introspective moment and ponder why the poor and downtrodden of the world (or just in your own country) would consider you their enemy.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  I'd say it's very hard to find any violent revolutions that improved a society. It's pretty much a long line of tragedies. I count throwing out a foreign oppressor, like the American revolution or the Czech "velvet revolution" as a separate category. Those can be good.
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    The central point of the Velvet revolution was that it was non violent; also it was not about foreign oppresor primarily, we were oppresing ourselves very well without much help needed.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      My impression is that once it was clear the Soviet Union would not rescue the regime, it had lost it's power base, and was doomed.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        Yes, but that was the last resort, after the regime's own army and secret police got overwhelmed.
      - ciceryadam 6y ago
        By the time the Velvet Revolution started, Poland was already after it's semi-free election, Hungary dismantled the heavily protected border with Austria, and the Berlin wall fell. But still, part of the local communist army had a contingency plan, 2 MiG-29 jets going supersonic, as low as they could, above the 300000+ protesters in Letna park. Thank god they didn't go through with it. Sources in Czech: https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/stacil-by-prelet-stihacky-nad-letnou-a-byli-by-mrtvi-vzpomina-na-listopad-prominentni-estebak-82837 https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/stacil-by-prelet-stihacky... https://www.parlamentnilisty.cz/zpravy/Havel-vzpominal-Stacily-dve-stihacky-A-revoluce-by-byla-krvava-218079 https://www.parlamentnilisty.cz/zpravy/Havel-vzpominal-Staci...
  - HaloZero 6y ago
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  In the French revolution every one think it was mainly the aristos that went to the Guillotine. In fact most of the deaths happened out in the countryside, Infernal Columns, Revolutionary Weddings (masss drownings of clergy) and the Revolt in the Vendee.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  Obviously revolution is terrible because of the enormous amounts of human suffering. But if we're trying to compare the impact on rich vs poor we should probably use per capita numbers because there are far more poor than rich.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
In practice though, during this epidemic we're seeing inequality rise; over 10 million people lost their jobs, the stock market has boomed after a short dip, the middle class who can work from home is earning a living as usual, whilst the poor have had to blow through what little savings they have whilst angry landlords are breathing down their neck because they haven't gotten their rent yet. And while this is going on, some Karens (m/f) have taken up their guns demanding their hairdressers get back to work.
- nsxwolf 6y ago
  It's the hairdressers that want to get back to work.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  I thought Karens were the ones ratting people out for people getting illegal haircuts.
User23 6y ago
We see a similar effect with many traits. For example with widespread malnutrition height is environmentally determined, but with good nutrition it’s mostly genetic.
jimbokun 6y ago
But we are in the midst of a pandemic, and income inequality seems to be increasing even faster.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I don't think that's true. The companies still operating are massively increasing wages, and the government's massively increased unemployment benefits. Both things are structured to be temporary in principle, but I expect that a significant residual of both will end up having to be made permanent.
  - ericwood 6y ago
    I'm not sure where you're getting the increased wages bit from; a significant number of companies have been forced to cut wages or furlough their employees. Maybe some people are getting raises, but that is very very far from the norm.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      Grocery and supermarket chains all seem to be giving significant hazard pay. Furloughs and pay cuts are AFAIK heavily concentrated in the jobs that pay more than entry-level retail.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        Name 3 other examples of industries that are routinely paying hazard pay or have otherwise increased wages.
      - claudeganon 6y ago
        Every grocery store I’ve heard of is getting $2 an hour extra per paycheck. That’s $320 extra per month, before taxes, if you’re working full time. That’s unlikely to cover the cost of getting tested for COVID-19, let alone any treatment or deductibles. Not sure how that qualifies as “significant.”
mc32 6y ago
Question is are the poor getting relatively richer after the revolution or are the rich becoming part of the poor?
Natsu 6y ago
This is why 'inequality' is such a bad thing to measure. Make sure the lowest rungs of society have enough to live on and the opportunity to move up. There's one way to make everyone equal: kill everyone. Inasmuch as these revolutions have made people more equal, it has largely been due to how effectively they did exactly that.
aabeshou 6y ago
come on, it's really not that complicated. just pay people a fair wage.
- spugody 6y ago
  Who defines what a fair wage is?
  - aabeshou 6y ago
    one of the functions of the ideological arm of capitalism is to argue that determining fair wage for a low-ranked laborer is so inscrutable that only "the market" can do it fairly, even in extreme cases where the executives of a company are paid tens of thousands of times as much while the laborer barely scrapes by on the wage for a full day's work. the main purpose of this ideology is arguably to justify ruthless exploitation, and show that it is "the way things have to be," when it is clearly due to severe power imbalances in the negotiation between the rich and poor and not because this actually represents paying low-rank laborers what their labor is worth or what is fair.
    - spugody 6y ago
      I don't think that is an ideological aim of capitalism. It is just an emergent behaviour. In any case, it is a genuine question from someone living in a decent welfare state and happy to continue to do so. I don't really care to engage in debates of who has the moral high ground, just the practical question, if you have an answer.
      - scollet 6y ago
        > one of the functions of the ideological arm of capitalism is to argue that determining fair wage for a low-ranked laborer is so inscrutable that only "the market" can do it fairly, ... You have not interpreted the comment correctly. This is deterministic. A capitalistic system or game has naturally emergent behaviors, but the propaganda excusing and defending the reluctance to add egalitarian rules is very much deterministic.

ashtonkem 6y ago

I always argue caution about revolution to help the poor, as there are plenty of examples where revolution killed as many poor people as it did aristocrats. Possibly the least flame war worthy example is the French Revolution. While the popular image is of the great terror killing off nobles, the reality is that most of the killings in Paris were either politicians or unfortunate merchants who refused to sell their goods at state mandated prices (at a loss) and were denounced. And that’s not even including the 160,000 mostly poor soldiers killed in the Vendée after peasants revolted against forced conscription, nor the extra 40,000 civilians killed in the brutal reprisals after the war was over. And the kicker? Not only did France eventually get a different king, but most nobles were able re-buy their old estates, and the government even went deeper into debt to compensate various nobles for their confiscated land.

Supermancho 6y ago
> I always argue caution about revolution to help the poor, as there are plenty of examples where revolution killed as many poor people as it did aristocrats. Std pareto curve. population of 100. 10 are aristocratic. 90 lower class. if you net equal losses, population 80 and you have increased equality. This is a simplification.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Right, but they didn't net equal losses. The vast majority of people killed in the French Revolution were from the Third Estate.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    It doesnt have to be equal, just outside the existing curve. Again, conceptually, 1:9 from 100 is an improvement for some abstract measure of equality.
    - BobbyJo 6y ago
      Given the fact that everyone ended up worse off after, this is kind of a pointless thing to attempt to point out.
      - OldFatCactus 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution#Long-term_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution#Long-term_im... Just skimming this, it seems the french and the entire world was left better-off actually
        BobbyJo 6y ago
        Fair enough, but I think we could both agree that the revolution was only beneficial because it changed the old system into something more malleable and predictable. The throne is an unstable thing, as is the man in it, and only subject to change on unpredictable whims. If you already exist in a system that is pliable, like a democracy, revolution really wouldn't bring you any of the benefits the French revolution did in the centuries that followed. You'd really only get the downsides. Let's not forget the context of the conversation here an talk about completely different circumstances.
        OldFatCactus 6y ago
        I don't follow what you mean about context, you brought up a bad example and you're moving goal-posts. There have been numerous revolutions with positive benefits to the world at large as well as to the society/culture in which they took place. I would chance to say that the majority were net-positive. If you find yourself scared of revolution, you should maybe take an introspective moment and ponder why the poor and downtrodden of the world (or just in your own country) would consider you their enemy.
BurningFrog 6y ago
I'd say it's very hard to find any violent revolutions that improved a society. It's pretty much a long line of tragedies. I count throwing out a foreign oppressor, like the American revolution or the Czech "velvet revolution" as a separate category. Those can be good.
- TomMarius 6y ago
  The central point of the Velvet revolution was that it was non violent; also it was not about foreign oppresor primarily, we were oppresing ourselves very well without much help needed.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    My impression is that once it was clear the Soviet Union would not rescue the regime, it had lost it's power base, and was doomed.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      Yes, but that was the last resort, after the regime's own army and secret police got overwhelmed.
    - ciceryadam 6y ago
      By the time the Velvet Revolution started, Poland was already after it's semi-free election, Hungary dismantled the heavily protected border with Austria, and the Berlin wall fell. But still, part of the local communist army had a contingency plan, 2 MiG-29 jets going supersonic, as low as they could, above the 300000+ protesters in Letna park. Thank god they didn't go through with it. Sources in Czech: https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/stacil-by-prelet-stihacky-nad-letnou-a-byli-by-mrtvi-vzpomina-na-listopad-prominentni-estebak-82837 https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/stacil-by-prelet-stihacky... https://www.parlamentnilisty.cz/zpravy/Havel-vzpominal-Stacily-dve-stihacky-A-revoluce-by-byla-krvava-218079 https://www.parlamentnilisty.cz/zpravy/Havel-vzpominal-Staci...
- HaloZero 6y ago
C1sc0cat 6y ago
In the French revolution every one think it was mainly the aristos that went to the Guillotine. In fact most of the deaths happened out in the countryside, Infernal Columns, Revolutionary Weddings (masss drownings of clergy) and the Revolt in the Vendee.
JamesBarney 6y ago
Obviously revolution is terrible because of the enormous amounts of human suffering. But if we're trying to compare the impact on rich vs poor we should probably use per capita numbers because there are far more poor than rich.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

In practice though, during this epidemic we're seeing inequality rise; over 10 million people lost their jobs, the stock market has boomed after a short dip, the middle class who can work from home is earning a living as usual, whilst the poor have had to blow through what little savings they have whilst angry landlords are breathing down their neck because they haven't gotten their rent yet. And while this is going on, some Karens (m/f) have taken up their guns demanding their hairdressers get back to work.

nsxwolf 6y ago
It's the hairdressers that want to get back to work.
djsumdog 6y ago
I thought Karens were the ones ratting people out for people getting illegal haircuts.

User23 6y ago

We see a similar effect with many traits. For example with widespread malnutrition height is environmentally determined, but with good nutrition it’s mostly genetic.

jimbokun 6y ago

But we are in the midst of a pandemic, and income inequality seems to be increasing even faster.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I don't think that's true. The companies still operating are massively increasing wages, and the government's massively increased unemployment benefits. Both things are structured to be temporary in principle, but I expect that a significant residual of both will end up having to be made permanent.
- ericwood 6y ago
  I'm not sure where you're getting the increased wages bit from; a significant number of companies have been forced to cut wages or furlough their employees. Maybe some people are getting raises, but that is very very far from the norm.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    Grocery and supermarket chains all seem to be giving significant hazard pay. Furloughs and pay cuts are AFAIK heavily concentrated in the jobs that pay more than entry-level retail.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      Name 3 other examples of industries that are routinely paying hazard pay or have otherwise increased wages.
    - claudeganon 6y ago
      Every grocery store I’ve heard of is getting $2 an hour extra per paycheck. That’s $320 extra per month, before taxes, if you’re working full time. That’s unlikely to cover the cost of getting tested for COVID-19, let alone any treatment or deductibles. Not sure how that qualifies as “significant.”

mc32 6y ago

Question is are the poor getting relatively richer after the revolution or are the rich becoming part of the poor?

Natsu 6y ago

This is why 'inequality' is such a bad thing to measure. Make sure the lowest rungs of society have enough to live on and the opportunity to move up. There's one way to make everyone equal: kill everyone. Inasmuch as these revolutions have made people more equal, it has largely been due to how effectively they did exactly that.

aabeshou 6y ago

come on, it's really not that complicated. just pay people a fair wage.

spugody 6y ago
Who defines what a fair wage is?
- aabeshou 6y ago
  one of the functions of the ideological arm of capitalism is to argue that determining fair wage for a low-ranked laborer is so inscrutable that only "the market" can do it fairly, even in extreme cases where the executives of a company are paid tens of thousands of times as much while the laborer barely scrapes by on the wage for a full day's work. the main purpose of this ideology is arguably to justify ruthless exploitation, and show that it is "the way things have to be," when it is clearly due to severe power imbalances in the negotiation between the rich and poor and not because this actually represents paying low-rank laborers what their labor is worth or what is fair.
  - spugody 6y ago
    I don't think that is an ideological aim of capitalism. It is just an emergent behaviour. In any case, it is a genuine question from someone living in a decent welfare state and happy to continue to do so. I don't really care to engage in debates of who has the moral high ground, just the practical question, if you have an answer.
    - scollet 6y ago
      > one of the functions of the ideological arm of capitalism is to argue that determining fair wage for a low-ranked laborer is so inscrutable that only "the market" can do it fairly, ... You have not interpreted the comment correctly. This is deterministic. A capitalistic system or game has naturally emergent behaviors, but the propaganda excusing and defending the reluctance to add egalitarian rules is very much deterministic.