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The reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence driven. Tesla is running the factory at a 30-40% capacity, and the Fremont factor

• foob4r 7y ago
  It's great that they are promising that, but I'm just going to leave this here: https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man... Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined CEO Elon Musk once called California OSHA the 'most stringent' safety organization in the US.
  • lend000 7y ago
    It's worth noting that most of the competitors are not making cars in California, so he may be correct about that.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • jsight 7y ago
      Indeed, and you hear far fewer stories like this about NV.
      • jeffbee 7y ago
        Except for thousand-word exposés in mainstream newspapers and on cable news networks. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/11/12/tesla-gigafactory-brings-nevada-jobs-and-housing-woes-worker-injuries-strained-ems/2452396001/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/1...
    • perl4ever 7y ago
      I didn't think OSHA was just a California thing. Is the state program really a world unto itself?
      • jameskraus 7y ago
        California OSHA is a very different beast from federal OSHA. My wife works in environmental safety (factories are an environment) and she refers to it as "Strict AF". Federal OSHA is basically the bare minimum as to what can be implemented. Most states layer on additional regulations as they see fit. California's Department of Labor, "Cal/OSHA", has the most stringent standards beyond federal OSHA's standards.
      • xienze 7y ago
        OSHA standards are basically a federal minimum, states are able to go above and beyond.
      • ggreer 7y ago
        They are called OSHA-approved state plans. They have to be at least as strict as federal OSHA to be approved. See the OSHA state plan FAQ[1] for more info. Honestly the OSHA enforcement I've seen has been a joke. One summer when I worked a landscaping job, my employer was fined $5,000 because I was caught using a weed-eater while wearing shorts. (It was hot out and I didn't care if I got an occasional pebble flung at my shins.) My coworkers had similar stories. 1. https://www.osha.gov/stateplans/faqs https://www.osha.gov/stateplans/faqs
        • perl4ever 7y ago
          "I didn't care" That seems like the point. People learn what risks to take from experience; the employer has more experience than new/young employees, so you force them to care. I "didn't care" initially about breathing drywall dust, but later I changed my mind.
          • gumby 7y ago
            And when it's the employer who "doesn't care" the employee rarely has a choice.
  • tenpies 7y ago
    Tesla has a very rich history of destroying the lives of whistleblowers and injured workers The Musk apologists in particular are very keen to never talk about this, since based on documents produced under oath, Musk himself is extremely vengeful and personally oversees the retaliation. E.g. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon-musk-tried-to-destroy-tesla-whistleblower-martin-tripp https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon... There is more of this coming down the pipe in a few weeks, but it's not like the Tesla fans will care. I mean you can basically google "Tesla whistleblower" or "Tesla injury" and get hundreds of results of awful stories that probably don't even happen in sweatshops, but clearly if you're "saving the planet", destroying a few lives is excusable. Like I've said before, Tesla is to EV what blood diamonds are to jewelry.
    • seph-reed 7y ago
      > but clearly if you're "saving the planet", destroying a few lives is excusable You shouldn't put it this way. The point is he was a dick when he didn't need to be. That's not okay. But if there was a button that said "save the planet but destroy a few (<50) lives," it wouldn't be unreasonable to hit it.
      • albinofrenchy 7y ago
        > But if there was a button that said "save the planet but destroy a few (<50) lives," it wouldn't be unreasonable to hit it. Of course, you are assuming the button actually does what it says. Maybe it just kills 50 people and saves a tree. There mindset reminds me very much of religious men rolling into colonies and being ok with any kind of thing so long as they could maybe save a savages soul or two. Once the argument hinges on grandiose intentions, damn near anything becomes "reasonable" and that is cause for alarm.
        • rhizome 7y ago
          "If we can save/provide for/help just one person, it'll al worth it." ad infinitum. Such trash logic.
• mlyle 7y ago
  County officials were ready to let them open a week from today, but wanted a little more review and input into Tesla's plans. But apparently they ran out of patience. Musk's previous defiance of the health order (without all these super-special controls) likely -does- encourage health officials to make extra-super-sure Tesla is in compliance, though.
  • icelancer 7y ago
    >> Musk's previous defiance of the health order (without all these super-special controls) likely -does- encourage health officials to make extra-super-sure Tesla is in compliance, though. Or it shows the governor and government officials that he is being serious about taking his ball and leaving the state.
    • BEEdwards 7y ago
      So we DO negotiate with terrorists when it's economic...
      • errantmind 7y ago
        Terrorists? I don't think that word means what you think it means
        • lostmsu 7y ago
          What will happen to the workers who defy the reopening? If they will be fired, that is terror.
          • errantmind 7y ago
            Word choice is important to communicate your thoughts: "terrorism is the use of intentional violence for political or religious purposes"
            • 7y ago
• heretoo 7y ago
  This goes both ways. I assume the lock down in the US was late because of supposed lack of evidence for community spread of the virus.
  • chii 7y ago
    lack of evidence isn't evidence of non-existence. The reason the US lockdown was late is because the administration is incompetent. Why is it that other countries locked down as soon as possible, despite "lack evidence"? It's because a default fail-safely system is better than a fail-deadly system.
    • some-are-better 7y ago
      Maybe the word "lockdown" means something different to you. But in my state (IL), we never had a "lockdown" in any sense of that word. In retrospect, in particular (to use an example from another area of the USA), the state of NY and NYC did not take COVID-19 seriously. Even while supposedly concerned about the spread of COVID-19, they were returning known-infected people to old folk homes. This was not a lockdown action... The reasons that the USA response to COVID-19 was X and not Y are a lot more complex than the simple statement "because the administration is incompetent". The full history of how well the USA did (including internal geographic areas vs. others) vs. the rest of the world is still to be written.
• tedivm 7y ago
  Your link doesn't agree with your text. The TESLA documents explicitly say that they are not providing PPE to everyone, but that people can bring their own masks. > Bring and wear your personal protective equipment (PPE) – If Tesla has provided you with a face covering, you are required to wear it unless otherwise told by your local leadership. If Tesla has not provided you with one, you may bring or make your own following the Center for Disease Controls guidance
  • dannyw 7y ago
    The advice in the link covers all Tesla sites. At the Fremont site, Tesla is handing out masks on entry, which means it is mandatory to wear: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/tesla-factory-employees-will-have-temperatures-taken-and-get-masks.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/tesla-factory-employees-will...
    • Animats 7y ago
      No, there was a Tesla internal e-mail saying that Tesla will take temperatures of Fremont factory employees and hand out masks. Whether that's actually happening is unknown at this time. If personal protective equipment is required, the employer has to provide it. It has to meet the usual NIOSH standards. Which means N95 or better masks for everybody. Hard to get, but if Tesla is "essential", they should be able to get them.
      • MengerSponge 7y ago
        And are all those users fitted and trained for their N95's? Also unknown, but even more unlikely. N95's often have yellow elastic bands, and we know Elon doesn't like yellow-colored safety things. This isn't ad hominem. He literally has endangered workers because he dislikes yellow. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-getting-hurt-because-elon-musk-hates-yellow.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/tesla-workers-gettin...
        • sjwright 7y ago
• thoraway1010 7y ago
  The focus is not on how we can make this safe, it is how can we control and lock this down. Different approaches, maybe similar outcomes, but one involves much less economic activity.
• Barrin92 7y ago
  >This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. I hope however you do support respecting the law even in cases where you disagree with a decision.
  • icelancer 7y ago
    This country was founded on the opposite of that; there's a lot of people who live here who identify with that spirit. There's also a litany of unjust laws in the past that were enforced regularly that we look very much down on today. Whether that happens in the future with COVID-19 regulations, who knows, but blind respect of the law is not really something Americans are known for.
    • teachrdan 7y ago
      > There's also a litany of unjust laws in the past that were enforced regularly that we look very much down on today. Are you seriously comparing Alameda County's shelter in place ordinance to slavery?
      • SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
        Why would you assume that's the reference? Many unjust laws have existed in American history other than legalized slavery.
        • teachrdan 7y ago
          > unjust laws in the past that were enforced regularly that we look very much down on today What else would they be referring to, besides perhaps the internment of Japanese Americans, Jim Crow, or other laws that have absurdly little in common with the shelter in place ordinance that's keeping Tesla's factory temporarily closed?
          • yadaeno 7y ago
            The prohibition or the classification of marijuana as a schedule 1 narcotic.
• smnrchrds 7y ago
  With a new and developing situation like COVID, where the unknowns are more than the knowns, being more safe may mean being less evidence-first, and being evidence-first may mean being less safe. The advice was against wearing masks for so long because even though wearing masks was the cautious thing to do, it was not what the evidence suggested. If we wanted to go by evidence alone, there probably would be an advisory even today saying "there is no evidence masks work. I guess you can wear it as a fashion statement, but we have no evidence it would help with preventing the spread. You definitely shouldn't force shoppers, workers, travellers, etc. wear one, because evidence does not show it is required or even helpful."
  • ngcc_hk 7y ago
    I think the evidence is so far NOT to protect you (might be a bit) but to protect AGAINST you. Hence the advise so far is if you have the sickness you should. Otherwise ... which is the BAD advise by who. From a public health and human dynamics point of view. The key issue is that you do not know you have it. And asking people to protect others as the main theme does not work. The full mask on is important as it eliminates the incentive of not having the inconvenices. And stop the spread. For work environment it is a risk and they should have some always on. Otherwise it will spread. In fact if one not on and start, the mask is the best collector of gems.
    • cma 7y ago
      It protects others more against you for you to wear one than for them (e.g. in dry conditions a droplet can evaporate into one that is more of a hanging aerosol by the time it gets to their mask where it could have been stopped by yours).
  • bdamm 7y ago
    You only have to sit across the table from an exuberant interlocutor to understand that masks help slow the spread of viruses. Surely everyone has noticed that people spit when they talk. That studies have a difficulty capturing that has more to do with how difficult good social behavior studies are.
  • 7y ago
• jeffbee 7y ago
  Those of us living in Alameda County don't really care if people from New South Wales support our pandemic defense posture or not.
  • DenisM 7y ago
    >Those of us living in Alameda County don't really care if people from New South Wales support our pandemic defense posture or not Is this a jab at all immigrants, or only some of us?
    • jeffbee 7y ago
      The comment is not from an immigrant. It is from a person who presently resides in Australia.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        • hnsheienr 7y ago
          Good work continuing to make Hackernews a complete elohtihs.
      • stOneskull 7y ago
        This has got nothing to do with nothing but I find it funny that they named Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria and Tasmania, and then they stopped caring about naming states and just said that's West Australia, that's South Australia and that's North Australia.
    • chipperyman573 7y ago
      I'm pretty sure they just listed a place that's far away from Alameda County. Why do you think it has to do with immigrants?
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
• geofft 7y ago
  > This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. "Support" is a bit of an overloaded word. I do agree with you that I do not support a government policy that isn't evidence-driven. But I do support the ability of the government to set policy without convincing every one of its constituents of the validity of its evidence. As a simple analogy, perhaps the speed limits for highways in my state are capped at 60 mph, but there's evidence that the roads can safely accommodate drivers at 70 mph, they're well-maintained, they are built to appropriate safety standards, etc. I wouldn't support the government keeping the speed limit at 60 mph based on flimsy evidence. But I also wouldn't object to the government enforcing the speed limit as it is - because the end result of saying that every driver has the right to make their own private judgment of whether the speed limit laws are validly reasoned is that there is no speed limit anymore.
  • Fjolsvith 7y ago
    We don't barricade all roads just because some drunk drivers are a threat to others.
    • jfoutz 7y ago
      A slightly more relevant example is speed limit. Speed limits are generally kinda low. It's that we allow a whole lot of cars on roads. Pretty much any relatively new will be fine at 75, but highways have to support 40 year old beaters with bald tires pulling a trailer. If we had regular drivers tests, we could probably loosen up more laws around driving - but there wouldn't be as many drivers who could qualify. We all try to strike a pragmatic balance. :shrug:
      • lonelappde 7y ago
        Huh? Most people ignore the speed limit, per their individual judgment. Does limits aren't magical safe driving speeds for all vehicles and weather conditions.
        • 7y ago
• KorematsuFred 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today This is enough of a reason and unlike Costco, consumers are not going to Tesla factory to get infected and spread infection. I think Bay area counties are on a power trip right now and unable to provide reasons and rationals to keep things shut. It is not Tesla who needs to convince the county officials why they should be operating, it should be other way around.
• rozab 7y ago
  >The reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence driven. And what about the reasons for restarting production? We all know this decision is being driven by Musk's misguided ideology.
• tacon 7y ago
  >A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. No, Tesla has a history of higher injury rates than similar factories, and of trying to hide their high injury rates. There are multiple stories about this, very easy to find. Here is a podcast episode on injuries at Tesla[0]. Tesla has a history of being cavalier about worker safety. [0] https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/working-through-the-pain-at-tesla/ https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/working-through-the-pain...
  • product50 7y ago
    This is independent of opening the factory during COVID or not. By this logic, Tesla should never be allowed to open their factory - COVID or not. And that doesn't seem to be the county's position - by far.
    • ModernMech 7y ago
      If Tesla cannot properly account for safety pre-covid, why should they be trusted to properly account for safety post covid? Especially when the guy insisting on opening the factory has been downplaying the risk of covid consistently from the beginning ("The coronavirus panic is dumb", "Based on current trends, probably close to zero new cases in US too by end of April", etc.)
      • product50 7y ago
        Because they already did it in Shanghai
  • perl4ever 7y ago
    I find the theoretical consideration more compelling than specific facts. If Tesla demonstrably is above the law, then incentives to do the right thing seem to be lacking. Whenever people get into an argument about whether someone or something is good or bad, my reaction is, what is the mechanism that would force them to be good? If the answer is absolutely nothing, then I'm going to bet that the people saying they are bad are correct (and of course if there are huge incentives, then the people saying they are good are likely correct). Either way, I don't think it makes sense to shrug and say they're probably as good or bad as everyone else.
• esoterica 7y ago
  > The reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence driven. We know that being in close indoor proximity to other people creates a risk of spreading infection (6 feet is just a guideline, it's not an impenetrable barrier). Therefore, opening a factory is not as safe leaving it closed. There's your "evidence".
  • rsj_hn 7y ago
    By that logic, the state should have the power to close any business whenever it wants. After all, we live in a world filled with communicable diseases. Those aint going away, and there is a good chance -- almost a certain chance -- that covid will become endemic like SARS I and just be with us permanently. So, no, that is not enough evidence that the degree of danger warrants the personal restrictions and power grabs happening all over the state -- almost all by governor decree and without any laws being passed.
• xienze 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions. Indeed, according to [0], as of mid-April (can’t find anything more recent), 30 grocery workers have died. This number is coming from a union representing 900K members. I don’t know how many grocery workers there are in the US, but obviously it’s at least 900K. To have only 30 die from that pool of workers in what could be argued as one of the most high risk jobs (coming into contact with huge numbers of people every single day) should probably say a lot about how much risk there is for the average Tesla assembly line worker. But as you said, evidence, or even common sense seems to go out the window here. 0: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/04/14/coronavirus-claims-lives-30-grocery-store-workers-union-says/2987754001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/04/14/coronavirus-...
  • agildehaus 7y ago
    The latest number from UFCW is 72. This virus has a low mortality rate in people younger than 60. Most UFCW workers are significantly younger than 60, so you wouldn't expect a high number of deaths. The protections in place are not to protect 20-40 year old grocery store workers who would get this virus and likely handle it fine; they're to prevent spread to vulnerable age groups and those with pre-existing conditions, and to prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed.
• qppo 7y ago
  >This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. conversely, Tesla defying the order and bypassing the courts is defying the rule of law which I have trouble supporting.
• myko 7y ago
  > This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. The lockdown is literally the opposite. Show me the numbers that prove that COVID-19 is going away. Seems much more likely we'll see another spike soon due to opening early _against all evidence_.
  • Gwypaas 7y ago
    Then what do you suggest? Lock down for 1-2 years to turn widespread community transmission into eradication? If hospitals aren't at capacity what is the problem? How many people at the lowest of the lowest rung on the ladder being pushed to famine and death because of disrupted supply chains does it take for you to start caring? The global perspective of this disease is horrifying any way you turn it, and economy has a central part in managing it successfully.
    • sanderjd 7y ago
      > Then what do you suggest? Waiting until we execute a successful testing and tracing program. Even the federal government guidelines for reopening are clear on what the alternate suggestion is, despite what the figurehead of that government seems to want his followers to think.
      • Gwypaas 7y ago
        For that to work you need to get the spread down to workable numbers again, which hasn't happened with the current lock down. It's in the limbo of too harsh to actually use the medical resources but too light to set it on a quickly lowering path with a workable timescale. If 5-10% has it you can essentially just assume everyone has been in contact within 1 or 2 steps with someone who has it, no need for fancy privacy invading tracing. Testing is good to catch people early, but if the capacity isn't here 2 months after the Italian outbreak, when will it be?
        • sanderjd 7y ago
          I mean, tragically, testing capacity in this country may never be where it needs to be, because we don't have an election coming up soon enough to replace our incompetent leadership in time to help. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't push back on the claim that the only two options are uncontrolled spread and never ending lockdown. There is another way, it isn't hypothetical, it is being executed elsewhere. We just aren't taking that path.
• xenocyon 7y ago
  > Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry Can someone enlarge on this a bit? I can see how auto repair can be a critical need, but I don't see why auto manufacture is critical during this phase of the pandemic.
  • jeffbee 7y ago
    It's because state energy policy classifies electric vehicles as part of the "dispersed energy" industry, along with solar panel installers and so forth.
  • perl4ever 7y ago
    Have you tried to repair a Tesla?
  • gamblor956 7y ago
    It's political. Car makers are the biggest employers in states essential to the GOP's electoral chances so they were deemed essential by the current administration.
    • umanwizard 7y ago
      Maybe so. Separate question: why were they deemed essential by California?
  • SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    It's important that cars continue to be available at reasonable prices, so it'd be very dangerous to snip off parts of the supply chain that makes that happen, even if it's not obvious why they can't take a break. Central planning is known to be risky and have surprising failure modes.
    • lambdasquirrel 7y ago
      The unsold stock of cars is so high right now that carmakers are renting out airports and have container ships parked full of them. https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-leases-airport-park-30000-unsold-cars https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-leases-airport-park-3... https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-leases-airport-park-30000-unsold-cars https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-leases-airport-park-3... On the bright side, you can get an Aston Martin for $20k off, which is probably in the ballpark for my budget for my next car. ;)
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• _bxg1 7y ago
  > Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage. Why is Tesla not allowed to be open, then? Is it classified differently somehow?
  • conanbatt 7y ago
    A state thing surely.
  • tick_tock_tick 7y ago
    The county of Alameda is overriding the state of California's rule that would allow them to open and the federal classifications that would allow them to remain open.
  • josefx 7y ago
    These are basically broad guidelines that can be modified locally. The county with Teslas factory has made it repeatedly clear that it does not consider the factory to be essential. However as far as I understand it is enforcing stricter rules in general and not just singling Tesla out.
• staticassertion 7y ago
  I agree with all of your points, really. Tesla very well may be able to provide a relatively safe environment. > This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. The problem is here, I think. Let's say I never drink poison. I have no data supporting that poison does any harm at all, therefor my policy of not drinking poison is not evidence-driven. If lock-in is successful it may very well look like it was unnecessary.
  • manigandham 7y ago
    There are many businesses open and millions of people all around the state going to work, shopping, eating, and generally interacting outside. This lock-in effectively ended weeks ago.
    • staticassertion 7y ago
      I mean, I'm in SF so it's pretty aggressive here, but it's extremely not ended here. I also don't really see your point.
      • manigandham 7y ago
        Obviously not every area is the same, hence why CA state and Alameda county don't agree. The point is that there has been no real social distancing for weeks in many places because most people are already in plenty of contact with each other.
    • Talanes 7y ago
      Even if every person is still seeing exactly as many people as before, which I doubt, being mostly constrained to gathering in outdoor places is still a healthy degree removed from "No Lockdown."
      • manigandham 7y ago
        Outside = outside their homes. People are together inside stores, restaurants, hospitals, and other buildings. Delivery services are driving hundreds of miles through many neighborhoods while handling food and packages which are taken inside and opened. Public transportation has full planes, trains, buses and even Ubers. People are breathing the same air and touching the same things like doors, benches, gates, chairs, signs, and many other surfaces. Many wear a flimsy mask, several wear it incorrectly, and almost nobody has gloves. Every day that goes by, people get more lazy, tired and complacent. My UPS driver last week wore shorts, short-sleeve polo, no gloves, no mask, and directly handed me a package and the tablet to sign. The idea that a highly contagious disease is somehow still contained in such a populous area defies any rational explanation.
• dfischer 7y ago
  From my interaction on Twitter there was full on mobs of people calling Elon typical names plus saying he’s forcing the workers to work and since he’s anti union Tesla should be shut down. We’re dealing with peak information warfare here. Mobs of people echoing what their media sources project.
  • Traster 7y ago
    Or maybe people just geniuinely disagree.
• justapassenger 7y ago
  > Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage. False. Most of car factories are still closed in USA. Source - https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/follow-latest-assembly-plant-closings https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/follow-latest-assembl...
  • humblebee 7y ago
    I don't understand how your source supports your current claim. No where does it state the total number of factories closed, but does state that almost all listed factories are opening in May.
    • justapassenger 7y ago
      Tesla was also in discussion with alameda county (confirmed by both sides) to reopen on May 18th. Then Elon decided to throw a tantrum and reopen week early, just because he’s rich and above the law.
  • Talanes 7y ago
    And even if we assume carmaker to refer to the company, that still only puts us at 7/14 that have resumed manufacturing.
• fasteddie31003 7y ago
  The world is definitely a more interesting place with Elon Musk in it!
  • lambdasquirrel 7y ago
    It does smell a little to me like he's doing this partly for the attention and outrage (i.e. publicity and marketing). Which is a tad irresponsible.
• Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco. It's not based on safety, it's based on need. People need a way to buy food, so stores like Costco that sell food are still open, even though it puts people at risk. By contrast, we do not need to be producing new cars right now, so putting people at risk in order to build them is unnecessary.
  • triceratops 7y ago
    > because IMO Home Depot should 100% be closed Not sure I agree with that. Covid or not, toilets will continue to break down, trees will continue falling on roofs, boilers, thermostats, ACs, stoves and fridges will continue to die. How's someone going to shelter in place if their shelter isn't habitable? Now, more than ever, people need their homes to be in good repair.
    • Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Y’know what? You’re 100% right, I agree. I have edited that bit out of my post.
  • cpursley 7y ago
    And what of the employees of Hobe Depot and car manufacturers who depend on their income to purchase said groceries?
  • sethammons 7y ago
    Digging in on the Home Depot should be closed narrative. In the event that my home needs repairs, how should I be able to do so if you close down stores like Home Depot? Even if you suggest that someone should go through a contractor instead of fixing their own broken plumbing or a leaky roof, where do you think most of the contractors get their supplies?
• madballster 7y ago
  B. but..but Tesla is not merely a car maker, it is a TECH company!
• joe_the_user 7y ago
  How much can Musk's claims of safety precautions be trusted given the factory's record of both safety violations and suppressing information about safety violations? "Inside Tesla’s Model 3 Factory, Where Safety Violations Keep Rising" https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa... "Tesla says its factory is safer. But it left injuries off the books" https://www.revealnews.org/article/tesla-says-its-factory-is-safer-but-it-left-injuries-off-the-books/ https://www.revealnews.org/article/tesla-says-its-factory-is...
• debt 7y ago
  "A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be..." Actually home is a much safer place to be. "not an evidence-first safety driven approach." Not true, staying home is why so many place have 0 new COVID-19 cases. That's evidence-first so Musk is selectively ignoring it because he wants to make his cars.
• devy 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions. > This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. You are stating that like it was a fact. It's NOT. Where is the evidence to support that Tesla factory is lowest risk? Now perhaps if all of the original KUKA robots are on and assembly lines are automated then it would probably be a different story. But apparently it's not, is it? We still haven't fully grasped the full cause and damages SARS-CoV-2 will bring to people (for instances, originally we thought children are extremely low risk, but they are NOT, they could be infected and DIE too!). We still haven't even near the order of magnitude of CODVID testing AND contract tracing programs needed to reopen economy, what on earth you think reopening is a good idea? What about the healthcare workers sacrificing their lives to save selfish people like Elon Musk? Those ICU doctors and nurses are EXTREMELY fatigued. Premature reopening will most likely bring another big wave of infections and deaths, and then we are back to square one - wasting all these past 2 months of hard physical distancing measures. As a long time EV driver and a big fan of Elon Musk, I am deeply disappointed at him on this. PS: Tesla's Return back to Work playbook has no mention about doing daily testing for its employees, we do know asymptomatic transmission accounts for huge percentages. How does he plan to address that? What kind of hero he is to calling for his employees to go back to work and die for capitalism?
  • bavell 7y ago
    I'm inclined to agree with OP here on the point that a factory is inherently safer than a grocery or retail store. At the former, the same set of people are working in a rather insulated environment where you can establish strict rules and protocols employees must follow. At the latter, there is a new mix of people going in and out everyday and it's much harder to force them to adhere to your rules. Not saying we should "reopen" ASAP but if we can identify and implement low-risk solutions that let people get back to work, then we should - and sooner rather than later.
• aguyfromnb 7y ago
  >Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage. So locking down is just "locking down", but arbitrarily classifying car building as essential during a massive economic downtown is a-okay with you? Seems reasonable. >and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. Wrong, many are opening on May 18th, which is when the government of CA would have opened Tesla. They couldn't wait 10 days. >This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage. First of all, what does the health of the public have to do with the fairness of car competition? Second, I thought Tesla had unlimited money and unlimited demand? What's the issue if they're closed for a few weeks?
  • geggam 7y ago
    >What's the issue if they're closed for a few weeks? If you think a few weeks is all its going to take you arent paying attention to the lack of testing capacity or the lack of a viable vaccine. 6 months minimum and likely 18 months is how long things will take to get testing or a vaccine in place ( if one is actually viable ) How many weeks have already passed ?
• DanBC 7y ago
  Important to note that the 2 metre distance applies to people who are standing still or walking normally. As soon as they start working, running, cycling, singing, etc the distance has to increase. We've seen video of Tesla employees wearing PPE (the ventilator video) and every single person in the video made multiple errors. (I don't hate Musk, and it is weird how he's so polarising).
  • jbay808 7y ago
    Yup, becomes something like 2m + 5s following time
• maxerickson 7y ago
  Are they buying increased long term disability insurance for the employees, insurance that covers respirator illness? Because that matters a lot more to the people that are inevitably going to be impacted than the statistics about how big the factory is.
• krick 7y ago
  Actually, I do agree with that, my PERSONAL opinion is that the panic around COVID-19 was artificial to a large degree from the very beginning. Most measures taken against it in many countries seem to me absolutely pointless and badly planned through. The keyword here is "personal". Despite disagreeing with the policy, I don't gather parties at my properties and encourage public protests. What Musk is doing here is much worse, though, he blatantly says "fuck you" to the government and does it in maximally public way possible. If he doesn't get punished for that, it will be such a special attitude that I don't even know how to think about that. CA "authorities" should loose all authority after that.
• scarmig 7y ago
  People here are missing why, exactly, the government wants to lock down the admittedly low-risk Tesla factory. It's about political sustainability. Right now, the government has a simple story: essential businesses stay open, and everything else stays closed. It's quick to express and easily understandable. But as soon as the government starts picking and choosing "nonessential" businesses to allow to open, every single nonessential business will be clamoring for an allowance and emboldened to present themselves as heroic frontline workers. You'll see every nail salon in the state market themselves as paragons of safety and virtue, professionally run, basically cleaner than the best medical facilities in the world. And if the government allows Tesla and refuses nail salons/meat packing facilities/hookah bars, you'll have a large constituency who'll be pushing duplicitous but superficially plausible arguments like "Newsom loves his BigTech buddies like Elon Musk but hates everyday regular businesses like Tyson." The quarantine only has power so long as the public understands it and supports it, and the government has made the plausible assumption that picking and choosing nonessentials would undermine public understanding and enforcement of the quarantine more than the value that would come in allowing certain safe nonessential businesses to return to work.
  • AlexandrB 7y ago
    This is exactly right and it's pretty disgusting for Musk to put his self-interest ahead of the public good. It's also disgusting that people are cheering him on. I don't think the US, as a nation, has the capacity for self-sacrifice that's required to contain a pandemic. At least not anymore. This is in strong contrast to previous global crises, like WWII.
    • brandmeyer 7y ago
      It doesn't bode well for our response to global climate change, either.
      • eirini1 7y ago
        yeah we really are doomed unless drastic change comes to how these kinds of decisions are made and how they are enforced. The American middle-class didn't even want to stay at home for a few weeks to prevent an epidemic that could directly kill them. I highly doubt they will give up their suburban houses with air conditioning and their two luxury cars to move into an apartment in a big city and take public transport for the sake of the climate.
• mc32 7y ago
  I agree with your rationale. Some manufacturing that is deemed essential is and was allowed to continue during the height of the pandemic so long as safety measures were taken (well outlined by Corning), PPE, physical avoidance, hygiene, air treatment, mindfulness, etc. If that protocol allowed some manufacturing to continue during lockdown I don’t see why it would now be insufficient while lifting some restrictions (or as your example Lowe’s and The Home Depot remaining open).
• dmode 7y ago
  How do you know it is not evidence driven ? Do you have expertise in infectious disease ? Do you have any data to prove that Alameda county has the means to control spread, has requisite number of PPE supplies ? Do you know if the county has the adequate testing capacity or contact tracing ? All of county's indicators are documented here: https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2020/coronavirus-map/ https://projects.sfchronicle.com/2020/coronavirus-map/ I would say it is highly evidence and data based and Musk is being a petulant child
• shanemhansen 7y ago
  Sorry to call you out, but your link contradicts your statement. > If Tesla has provided you with a face covering, you are required to wear it unless otherwise told by your local leadership. If Tesla has not provided you with one, you may bring or make your own following the Center for Disease Controls guidance.
• stevespang 7y ago
  Behind the scenes Musk's lawyers told him to do this - - an arrest is a significant action that may be necessary for his lawsuit to go forward. He is daring Alameda county to arrest him, and their lawyers know this game as well.
• rhizome 7y ago
  Where Tesla is really at a disadvantage is in not being able to go a few months without making cars. No other shut-down car company is complaining like Elon. Maybe it's a problem he has in running the only non-union auto manufacturer? Well, he or Tesla should have enough money to provide for the workers during furlough. Oh, but he's a good corporate citizen, spending his time "cutting waste," so now when something big happens the company doesn't have the resilience to ride it out safely. Furthermore, while all of the above were his choice, reopening isn't. He's being a rich baby and whining because he's not allowed to do whatever he wants to do. I hope the county/state smacks him down. >This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach What is this well of coronavirus evidence that the state is rejecting or ignoring? People aren't using the word "unprecedented" just because it's hard to type. >Tesla claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis. Where is the evidence that this is the (second) safest approach?
  • rsj_hn 7y ago
    >No other shut-down car company is complaining like Elon. Elon is not complaining, he is reopening along with the other automakers. Workers for Ford, GM returned to work on the same day Tesla workers did (May 11) and the US Ford and GM factories will start running May 18. Only some social media folks are enraged and freaking out about a business opening - they are the ones being petulant. Of course this is going to be taken to the courts and we'll see how much a Governor's decree can accomplish when it comes to affecting critical industries that are supposed to remain open, of which auto manufacturing has been designated as one. https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/05/11/michigan-reopens-manufacturing-including-big-3-automakers-today/ https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/05/11/michiga...
    • rhizome 7y ago
      There's a not-insignificant chance that an employee will die from Elon's choice here. Should he incur liability for it?
• tmpz22 7y ago
  I can't get over the fact that hospitals, nursing homes, and critical parts of the food supply chain, lack crucial PPE and hundreds of emergency staff are dieing, but Elon Musk's car factory has an ample supply so that your luxury car can be delivered on time. I don't get how anyone can justify that. Our doctors and nurses are just fodder.
• jariel 7y ago
  "dogmatic and not evidence driven" this is false and there is plenty of evidence to be concerned about factories as they are one of the primary vectors of spread in the post-lock-down world. All over North America, the food-related factories that have remained open have become cause for outbreak. Here's a shortlist of the breakouts in Canada [1]. Cargill plants alone are responsible for a material % of those infected in Canada. "A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco" First, where is the evidence, second our 'food supply' is definitely an essential service, wheras Tesla factories are probably last on the list of 'things we need to re-open' to get going. From a PR perspective, Musk is setting himself up for big trouble - odds are there will be some kind of outbreak, and even if his decision is not a factor, some Tesla employee, somewhere may die from Covid and then he will get blamed. The CNN headline will read: "Tesla worker dies of Covid-19 after Musk orders plant re-opened" Musk already has enough bad news, this is going to be and existentially problematic meme. Mabye Musk is not the great businessman they say, because if it was, he'd realize that his customers are highly motivated by his 'green' / 'good' cause and that there is an incredibly amount of goodwill in his customer base. Tesla would not exist without this kind of goodwill (i.e. celebrities waiting 18 months for delivery, bragging on Twitter about it). Instead of playing the 'Trump Card' on Twitter and getting people back to work, using 'The Constitution' style rhetoric, he should be playing some other card, like signalling how much his workers are important to him, how he's going to have 'special healthcare' for all Covid-related issues, how he's going to provide full pay for anyone hit by Covid, and provide extra vacay days for those who have family members hit by Covid - etc.. Musk is burning a lot of goodwill here and for what potential upside? He can open a factory a few weeks early? The County has even indicated that they are 'ok' with the factory re-opening so long as they've approved his plan. So basically he's getting into an international war over whether or not county officials should have a say in his 'special COVID plans'? Where is the ROI on this action? I think Musk might be starting to cave under the constant stress and constant grind. [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/these-are-the-meat-plants-in-canada-affected-by-the-coronavirus-outbreak-1.4916957 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/these-are-the-meat...
  • inawarminister 7y ago
    Well, the ROI might be market expansion of Model Y and Cybertrucks towards the government-averse masses in mid-America and a few other states... Might be a decent advertisement to those demographics.
• jayd16 7y ago
  This is like saying I should get to speed because I have evidence that I can probably drive at that speed safely. Even if that was the case, and even if the county was willing to give me special treatment, does it seem right to demand special treatment immediately and deny any requests for clarification? Even if I was a special snowflake how should this policy apply fairly to others in the county so as not to invoke any lawsuits for favoritism? I like Tesla but the world doesn't revolve around it.
  • miscPerson 7y ago
    Traffic regularly goes above the speed limit without mass arrests — or any arrests at all.
• mehrdadn 7y ago
  You had me until you started talking about Home Depot and Costco. Stores like these aren't open because of their virus control measures. They're open because people need food and home repair. Otherwise they'd be closed too. Comparing them to car manufacturing severely weakens what could've otherwise been a potentially more compelling argument.
• brailsafe 7y ago
  Any idea why carmakers are defined as a critical industry? That strikes me as similar to defining something like cell phone manufacturers being defined critical.
• fuckyah 7y ago
  Thank you!!!
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• tzs 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. That's not clear. To get infected you need to be exposed to a certain number of viruses. I don't think the number is known for sure for this one, but for similar viruses its something like 1000. A sneeze or cough expels millions, which is why people who are sneezing or coughing are so good at spreading it. Someone who isn't sneezing or coughing but who has it expels much fewer, taking maybe an hour to expel by breathing enough to infect someone else. Talking would cut that down some, but still take a while. An infected person shopping at Costco or Home Depot who is not coughing is very unlikely to infect other shoppers that they pass while shopping. It would only be in line to checkout where other people would be near them for longer times, but if the business is doing reasonable crowd control those times should not be long enough for anyone to get the 1000 viruses. This is why churches and movie theaters are much more dangerous. There you are near the same people for an hour or two, so even staying 6ft apart you might get enough total viruses during your visit to become sick. Is a Tesla factory more like a Costco or Home Depot, where everyone is moving about and most of your encounters with others only last a short time, or is it more like a movie theater or church, where you are fairly stationary as are those around you? If a work shift is 8 hours and people are mostly stationary, I'd not at all be surprised if you need them to be much farther apart than 6ft to make it safe.
  • sjwright 7y ago
    Anyone who has seen footage of a modern car factory and a post-COVID hardware store will know that this is absurd. Car factories like Tesla's are already very clean places. They're already dealing with physical and airborne dangers—robots need clearance and the air must be aggressively exhausted and scrubbed to deal with fumes from paints, plastics, solvents, welding etc. Much of the physical part handling is performed by or assisted by robots. Much of the transport is performed by conveyors. Employees generally don't need to be in close proximity or touch the same surfaces as other employees. Unlike a consumer store, Tesla can effectively mandate 100% compliance around PPE, whereas hardware stores are full of self-entitled pricks who don't wear sufficient PPE and linger in aisles forcing people to regularly trespass the 6 foot buffer...
• siscia 7y ago
  And still you are supposed to follow the rules. Even the one you don't like. Especially if you are a business. You could write a convincing argument for pretty much anything, that it is not the point.
• Bombthecat 7y ago
  German car makers are doing similar things (reopening under certain conditions)...
  • watwut 7y ago
    German overall response to covid was good. From closing and restricting shops soon, to ridiculous amount of testing they were doing. There was also considerably less fit about original closing, making it politically easier to close things soon, pay for testing and then slowly reopen. German automakers were not Covid truthers claiming it is all hoax and what not. They did negotiated and so, but fundamentally cooperated.
• rmason 7y ago
  States are letting the Big 3 reopen car plants, even in Michigan next week. California is putting Tesla at a competitive disadvantage if they can't follow suit.
• jbay808 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I doubt that Tesla's facility would have ever been shut down if it were in BC. Manufacturers here just had to demonstrate that they could operate safely, and in accordance with distancing rules, cleaning requirements, etc. Seems to be working pretty well.
• chx 7y ago
  > That is something I cannot support. Then work with Alameda County to give permission to Tesla to reopen. What Elon Musk did, however, is openly defying the law.
• travbrack 7y ago
  Do you own Tesla stock?
• onetimemanytime 7y ago
  18-xx months locked up and no production is not a valid policy either, so start the work with certain safety measures.
• crimsonalucard 7y ago
  >This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. It is 100% evidence based. Reduction of gatherings = reduction in transmission. There's no way around this. People may be more likely to get covid from costco, but reducing interaction to only costco is still reduction of transmission. This idolization of Elon Musk and contrarian logic that really doesn't even make common sense is getting on my nerves. It's like one of those people who said that face masks weren't protecting people from covid using faulty but overconfident logic. Uh hello? A face mask blocks light and slows down
  • Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    I came here to say this. It isn't just the car factory one needs to look at: Where are these employees eating lunch? Have they redesigned break rooms? How are employees getting to work - collective transport? Since employees are out more due to work, are they more likely to stop elsewhere or have small gatherings since everything feels like it is returning to normal? And as you said, going to less places means there is less chance of getting infected.
• fluffything 7y ago
  > A Tesla factory is a much safer place Citation needed please. Tesla's factories are the most dangerous car factories in the US by an order of magnitude more __than all other car manufacturers combined [0]__. With such a bad safety track record, they must be completely high to believe that they are going to be doing significantly better with a pandemic going on. Right now, not only the safety of their workers is at stake, but also the safety of the whole region around their factories. Their track record proves that they cannot be trusted with the safety of their workers, what makes anybody believe that they can be trusted with the safety of whole regions instead? Doesn't make any sense to me. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-safety-violations-dwarf-big-us-auto-plants-in-aftermath-of-musks-model-3-push/#13a565f354ce https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
  • TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    Someone pointed out that California OSHA is known to be strict, while other auto manufacturers are in different states. So it's unclear whether Tesla is objectively less safe or if the regulating body is simply more willing to hand out citations. Perhaps injury rates would be more telling, though California may have broader rules for what counts as injury. I guess my point is it may not be true that "more Cal OSHA citations" == "less safe".
    • fluffything 7y ago
      Good point, thanks.
• odiroot 7y ago
  > This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support. I have a feeling it's purely a political move. Someone in the government just doesn't like Mr Musk.
• black_puppydog 7y ago
  Sorry but I'm downvoting this. It's besides the point IMHO whether or not that decision by the county is right or wrong. Simply defying a public order in itself should be the focus here. If Tesla gets away with this, it will be (yet another...) case of "be rich and the law doesn't apply to you." Which is short-sighted, since it undermines the rule of law, i.e. the very base upon which people can rich without being afraid of pitchforks.
  • dnate 7y ago
    He makes a very good point. You shouldn't down vote an opinion only because you disagree with it.
    • black_puppydog 7y ago
      I downvoted it because this (IMO not very good point due to it missing the point) took up the entire first comments page.
• GrumpyNl 7y ago
  Even when its a stupid law, you are not above the law.
• dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, There is no such thing. There are federally-defined critical infrastructure sectors, which are independent of COVID-19, and may or may not be relevant to any state or county emergency order (many such orders have used the federal critical infrastructure sectors list as a baseline, with or without modification, either incorporating the list modified or in its original form or referencing it), but there's no such thing as anything defined (outside of particular state or county orders) as a “COVID19 critical industry”, and carmakers are not so designated in the only orders relevant to the Tesla case.