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Medical staff say virus stigma driving Tokyo hospitals to edge of collapse
- samizdis 7y agoThis is the first time that I've read about health/care workers being shunned and stigmatised, but I can see how it can happen. I can't imagine that this is a purely Japanese phenomenon, though. Anyone from anywhere outside of Japan able to point to similar media reports? Edited to add: thanks for the posters below who pointed me at relevant articles concerning workers similarly stigmatised elsewhere. Shameful and depressing are words that spring easily to mind :-(
- HarryHirsch 7y agoThere are enough reports from the US about physicians and nurses getting evicted because tenants are getting concerned about coronavirus spreading in the building. Daily Beast isn't a real newspaper of record, but I've seen similar articles in reputable papers: https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-nurses-face-eviction-housing-discrimination-from-scared-landlords https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-nurses-face-evicti...
- exhilaration 7y agoThe New York Times had a similar story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/co-op-board-coronavirus-nyc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/nyregion/co-op-board-coro... The Doctor Came to Save Lives. The Co-op Board Told Him to Get Lost.
- masklinn 7y ago> There are enough reports from the US about physicians and nurses getting evicted because tenants are getting concerned about coronavirus spreading in the building. To be fair this is not specific to the US e.g. in france at least one nurse was harassed into leaving (heating and hot water shut off) by their landlords, in belgium one was expelled by their co-tenants, in germany one got thrown out of a supermarket, in australia a doctor got evicted, healthcare workers got assaulted in india, …
- BurningFrog 7y agoThat does seem like a valid concern. Not sure what a solution might be.
- toper-centage 7y agoHow is that a valid concern? The only way the virus could spread would be through the building door, and maybe elevator buttons. It's a matter of cleaning those regularly and washing your hands when you get home. It's not rocket science.
- StanislavPetrov 7y agoThe virus is airborne and lasts for hours floating in the air, aside from surfaces. Its not just a matter of washing up. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-lives-for-hours-in-air-particles-and-days-on-surfaces-new-us-study-shows.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-lives-for-hours-...
- runamok 7y agoIt can last. It's fairly unlikely especially if people are considerate with minimum precautions. E.g. If one sneezes uncovered into air with the right humidity, etc. it COULD survive for a while airborne. That's not to say merely by breathing a person's usual exhalations they could get it. The virus is transmitted through droplets, or little bits of liquid, mostly through sneezing or coughing, Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, head of WHO’s emerging diseases and zoonosis unit, told reporters during a virtual news conference on Monday. “When you do an aerosol-generating procedure like in a medical care facility, you have the possibility to what we call aerosolize these particles, which means they can stay in the air a little bit longer.” https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-lives-for-hours-in-air-particles-and-days-on-surfaces-new-us-study-shows.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-lives-for-hours-...
- BurningFrog 7y agoI often and involuntarily share an elevator with other people in my building. You are aware that the virus spreads primarily through air?
- egyptiann 7y agoIn Egypt [0] villagers blocked the burial of a doctor who died of coronavirus. [0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-52272762 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-52272762
- khuey 7y agohttps://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-nurses-face-eviction-housing-discrimination-from-scared-landlords https://www.thedailybeast.com/coronavirus-nurses-face-evicti...
- eden_hazard 7y agoMy gf in Colombia said that healthcare workers are being told by certain groups not to go to the hospital or they will be killed. They are writing that stuff outside their doors and buildings.
- HarryHirsch 7y agoWhat do these "groups" hope to achieve by crippling the healthcare system? Do they want to keep Coronavirus off their turf by driving healthcare workers of their turf or something else? These people are normally rational. Some piece of context is missing.
- toomuchtodo 7y agoFear and lack of knowledge breeds irrationality.
- HarryHirsch 7y agoOn the other hand, there are reports of Coronavirus spreading through a building through the air conditioning, and it's a fact that presymptomatic people can be infectious, consequently you really may not wish to live in the same building as an emergency physician or nurse these days. Their work still deserves recognition, but meanwhile quarantine on the hospital grounds might be a wise move.
- Razengan 7y ago> These people are normally rational. I doubt that. Crises surface suppressed flaws (and strengths), not usually create new ones. People who would threaten anyone with "you will be killed" for anything, got there before the crisis.
- maximente 7y agothat's intense. here in medellin there are several tenants in our building (estrato 4, so not uber wealthy) begging the health care workers that do live here to temporarily live elsewhere or stop working, mostly bc there are a lot of elderly people that live here and a single unavoidable set of stairs that everyone has to use.
- dpeck 7y agoreports of some health care workers being attacked with bleach in Mexico, https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-23/hold-the-applause-some-mexico-doctors-attacked-with-bleach https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-23/hold-the-...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tantalor 7y agoAn emergency room doctor in Miami has temporarily lost custody of her 4-year-old daughter while she treats patients during the coronavirus pandemic. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/us/custody-coronavirus-er-doctor-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/us/custody-coronavirus-er-doc...
- hutzlibu 7y agoSo people risk their lives for others ... and not get credit, but stigmatised? Glorious. Here in germany I have not seen it, or heard of it and rather support, but my neighbours for example would be the type, to do this as well. Fear brings out ugly sides in humans.
- MrGilbert 7y agoWell, take it with a grain of salt, but there has been at least one article about a nurse in a german village, which got thrown out of a supermarket after an acquaintance told 'em that this person works in a hospital where italian COVID-19-patients are treated: https://www.merkur.de/leben/karriere/angst-coronavirus-krankenhaus-pflegerin-wird-supermarkt-geworfen-zr-13644888.html https://www.merkur.de/leben/karriere/angst-coronavirus-krank...
- hutzlibu 7y agoWell, it would not surprise me. I do not have any illusions about my fellow countrymen having better morals or something. And I can understand the fear, as logically, yes, a health worker has a increased risk of infection and spreading. But it is such small minded thinking, of putting extra stress on the very people you expect to take care of you, when you finally get sick, that makes me despise those people. So yes, everyone around a health worker need to take extra care. And if the possibility exist, for the health workers to live seperately for the crisis time, why not. If compensated adequately. But if it is not possible - and you cannot expect a mother to seperate from their family, then just make the best out of it and don't forget you are all in this together.
- rjvs 7y agoThere is one case in Australia that is similar, although also more personal https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-22/coronavirus-fears-doctor-evicted-during-crisis/12162880 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-22/coronavirus-fears-doc...
- skybrian 7y agoHere is an article about stuff like that in India: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-13/doctors-come-under-attack-in-india-as-coronavirus-stigma-grows https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-13/doctors-c...
- enitihas 7y agoIndia was very quick in passing an ordinance imposing harsh penalties on attacking healthcare workers though.
- gvjddbnvdrbv 7y agoSomeone attempted to evict a paramedic in the UK.
- biofox 7y agoNot just attempted. The poor guy was evicted: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/22/nhs-paramedic-evicted-from-home-for-fear-he-would-spread-covid-19 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/22/nhs-paramedic-... The same also happened to a doctor in the UK: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-doctor-evicted-from-home-due-to-landladys-fears-over-covid-19-11963799 https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-nhs-doctor-evicted-fr...
- vkou 7y agoIf the world were just, the landlady should lose the property she evicted him from. This should assuage the her fears about her tenant spreading COVID.
- tilolebo 7y agoThere are similar stories in France, but it's mostly hearsay. And with some "journalists" relying on twitter to write their articles, it gets harder to distinct hearsay from real news.
- jakub_g 7y agoThere was a report in France 2 and some pictures of papers the "friendly neighbors" put on nurses' appartment doors asking them to move out.
- tilolebo 7y agoI just had a quick look on Google News, some stories seem legit: In Montpellier, owners shutting down hot water and heating to force a nurse to move out: https://www.la-croix.com/Sciences-et-ethique/Sante/Coronavirus-soignants-victimes-peur-voisins-2020-04-04-1201087814 https://www.la-croix.com/Sciences-et-ethique/Sante/Coronavir... In Marseille, neighbors left an anonymous note asking to 2 sisters working as nurse and firefighter to leave the residence: https://www.ouest-france.fr/sante/virus/coronavirus/coronavirus-les-voisins-demandent-deux-soeurs-pompiere-et-soignante-de-quitter-leur-appartement-6796425 https://www.ouest-france.fr/sante/virus/coronavirus/coronavi...
- kyawzazaw 7y agoin Myanmar, there have been reports where landlords evict the medical workers(doctors/nurses) because they fear the virus.
- chadlavi 7y agoI saw a CNN story about medical professionals in Mexico being physically attacked: https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/world/mexico-coronavirus-attacks-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/world/mexico-coronavirus-atta...
- clairity 7y agoit's evidence that over-hyping the pandemic and stoking fears have real negative consequences. every single day there are literally thouasands of stories about how terrible and terrifying this disease is without any attempt at grounding these stories in an appropriate context (like how bad it is compared to the flu, while ignoring/defying the political connotations therein). this isn't meant to be anti-media by any measure; but we need to hold media accountable so that it can modulate future coverage appropriately.
- crooked-v 7y ago> like how bad it is compared to the flu, while ignoring/defying the political connotations therein What political connotations?
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoIn the public discourse (or at least in American public discourse), any comparison between the coronavirus and the flu has come to be seen as a signal for a package of controversial ideas. The coronavirus isn't that bad, lockdowns were designed by fear-mongering globalists, etc.
- Jade_Jet 7y agoThe term globalist is rooted in the idea that there is a Jewish global conspiracy where they are loyal to their hereditary country of origin, not the one they are currently a citizen in. It has been used as a dog whistle for alt-right circles for quite some time and is often used as a thinly-veiled anti-semitic slur. I don’t know you, but figured I should at least extend the curtesy of informing you of the meaning behind the words that you chose to use in-case the usage was out of error instead of deliberate.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoI'm unaware of any term other than globalism for the idea that the world ought to act as a single global community rather than a bunch of nations in competition. So I'm going to have to respectfully reject attempts from alt-right circles to appropriate it for weird conspiracy theories.
- sebwi 7y agoUnfortunately, I do not have an English source but a nurse was thrown out of a supermarket in Germany as well [1]. [1] https://www.zeit.de/arbeit/2020-04/intensivpflege-coronavirus-ausgrenzung-social-distancing https://www.zeit.de/arbeit/2020-04/intensivpflege-coronaviru...
- nabla9 7y agoSame stigmatization happened for people from Fukushima. People were treated like pariah even when radiation is not infectious.
- robk 7y agoA doctor friend in the UK had her flatmates ask her to move out because of the risk she brought to the house. It was devastating to her.
- arkitaip 7y agoThis isn't really surprising in a country where saving face, social standing and collectivism is everything. Other horrible consequences of these deeply embedded social systems are "evaporated people" [0][1] and the terrible treatment of single parents [2][3]. [0] https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-25/japans-evaporated-people-have-become-obsession-franch-couple https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-25/japans-evaporated-peo... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/evaporated-people-disappearing-from-japan-2017-4?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/evaporated-people-disappeari... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/09/japan-is-no-place-for-single-mothers/538743/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/09/japan-i... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmivmkZvIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmivmkZvIg
- sebwi 7y agoDo you have any insight on what differentiates Japan from other Asian countries like South Korea? Collectivism is not a unique characteristic to Japan and South Korea has arguably done a good job.
- btilly 7y agoIn the discussion in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22934704 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22934704 patio11 was pilloried for claiming that, We project a true count of over 500,000 infections, including more than 5,000 severe cases, and a breakdown in provision of care (“overshoot”) in Nagoya, Osaka, and Tokyo, before the end of April. And yet, according to medical staff, Tokyo is close to a collapse of the medical system. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/ says that there are currently over 12,000 reported cases in Japan and this doubled in the last 10 days. So it is likely to be in the 20-25k range by the end of the month. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/new-york-virus-deaths-top-15k-cuomo-expected-to-detail-plan-to-fight-nursing-home-outbreaks/2386556/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/new-york-virus-deaths-... says that New York reported COVID-19 seems likely to underreport actual cases by a factor of 10. Which puts Japan at the 200,000-250,000. But as widespread reports say, Japan's testing has been extremely anemic. That can easily put us back in the ballpark discussed. You know, that projection is looking reasonably close for having been made over a month ago.
- aikinai 7y agoThe article isn’t talking about the volume of patients but the stigma on medical professionals. “Collapse” was probably a poor word choice since these days that almost exclusively means going over capacity due to a surge in Covid-19 patients.
- jiofih 7y ago> They warned that a “collapse of the medical care system” come happen soon if the situation continues. It is about the stigma causing the medical professionals to quit, which will lead to lower, and hence exceeded, capacity. It helps when you read it.
- hcurtiss 7y agoOverwhelming the hospital system by virtue of a decrease in capacity seems to me to be a different thing than by virtue of an increase in cases.
- FriendlyNormie 7y agoPlease link to a reputable paper then, not a story submitted to the globalist propaganda arm Daily Beast by a “gender reporter”. No globalist media can be taken seriously regarding this virus, obviously they are colluding to push a narrative to keep nations scared until we all accept their contrived tracking “solution”.
- smcl 7y agoSincere question. You’ve been careful to include the word “globalist” twice here, why?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dreamcompiler 7y agoApparently it's some sort of dogwhistle, but I don't have my dogwhistle lexicon handy.
- amalter 7y agoI think it’s supposed to imply Jewish? Although I don’t quite get the Zionist angle on doctors being kicked out by nervous co-op boards. We do control the weather, but no cabal can control a cranky NYC co-op board (Not even Bill Gates and the UN)
- FriendlyNormie 7y agoZionists are Israeli nationalists, basically the opposite of globalists.
- FriendlyNormie 7y agoYes, the person you’re responding to is dogwhistling that he believes Jews run the world and he assumes that I agree with him.
- FriendlyNormie 7y agoJapan Times is not a genuine source of Japanese news, it’s a well known globalist propaganda arm constantly spreading lies about Japan to a mostly western audience that doesn’t know any better.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y agoI would encourage you to say what specific things you feel are wrong with news sources, rather than call them "globalist" as a swear word.
- ericmcer 7y agoIn the USA most doctors doing residency would get an immediate pay bump if they went on unemployment.
- core-questions 7y agoOh, no, won't someone think of the poor doctors and their salaries!
- malcolmgreaves 7y agoHardest working, highly skilled and intelligent, absolutely essential to society -- we should pay doctors a wonderful premium for them sacrificing a decade of their lives to get the education that lets them confidently save lives all day long.
- smooth_remmy 7y agoAnd we do pay them very very.... very well. Doctors are the highest paid job in every state: https://www.businessinsider.com/highest-paying-job-in-every-us-state-2019-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/highest-paying-job-in-every-... Doctors earn a median salary of 313k (its around 100k for software engineers): https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/911668 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/911668 Our doctors earn about 3x as much as other first world countries.
- LeoTinnitus 7y agoMost of the time when I interact with a doctor, they're just entering in information into a database. Maybe we could bust this guild of ridiculous standards to maybe squeeze in a few others? I don't get why we gotta firstly work our doctors to death, and secondly ensure they are "the best." Seriously, sometimes "good enough" is just that. Just don't let junior doctors make critical decisions for people until theyve got a few years and show skill. I don't know, kinda like every other job. I'm not saying like let any schmuck do it, but any I crazy or is it not obsessive how high the barrier to entry is? That's bs purported by lobbiests and guilds of doctors trying to keep people out to keep their demand and wages high. It's the inverse of how a union (whereas this is a guild of skilled laborers not paying dues) abuse this.
- Jeema101 7y ago"At the hospital, about 10 nurses and other staffers have left since the first COVID-19 case was found on the medical staff. The list included clerical workers." I fear this is going to be an increasing problem if we continue to rely on the belief that medical personnel can be abused indefinitely.
- TeMPOraL 7y agoThat's actually the nicer side of the problem. Given current conditions pretty much everywhere, doctors and nurses that don't run away end up overworked to the point of exhaustion. Some of them die, rest are left with PTSD. Healthcare systems worldwide are bleeding medical staff, and unfortunately, training a new medical professional takes many years (more than a decade if you want them to be any good).
- ISL 7y agoIf we're hemorrhaging healthcare workers, it is because we're not giving them enough support. We're spending $2+T on keeping everyone afloat in the US. We can spend a lot of that money encouraging everyone to pitch in to fight Covid. We need ~hundreds of thousands of contact-tracers. If that were our only need, we could offer $1,000,000 to everyone who works as a contact tracer and have money left over. I'm already volunteering ~70% of my time on FindTheMasks.com. I can only imagine how much more work could be done if unemployed people were given the opportunity to work on fixing the root cause of unemployment!
- TeMPOraL 7y agoI'm not sure what contact-tracers do (seriously, I don't know, and I'd love a description of what this job entails), but I assume they'd need PPE and tests, both of which are generally unavailable due to insufficient manufacturing capability, supply chain issues and bureaucratic blunders. > We're spending $2+T on keeping everyone afloat in the US. I think it's best to consider this as less "money to help fight the pandemic", and more as "money to save everyone from starvation", or alternatively "money to have a country to save from the pandemic". > I'm already volunteering ~70% of my time on FindTheMasks.com. My strong and sincere thanks for the hard work you do!
- nwatson 7y agoJapan already has formal stigmatizing of groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin ... this is how caste systems develop. Burakumin: "They were originally members of outcast communities in the Japanese feudal era, composed of those with occupations considered impure or tainted by death (such as executioners, undertakers, workers in slaughterhouses, butchers, or tanners), which have severe social stigmas of kegare (穢れ or "defilement") attached to them." Add to this now "medical professionals".
- the_af 7y agoThis phenomenon is sadly not exclusive to Japan. In Argentina nurses and health care personnel have been abused by their neighbors. In one case, a nurse was harassed and threatened until she was forced to leave the apartment she was renting (yes, she filed a complaint with the law). Unfortunately fear drives some people to get very nasty, even against people who could save them. Or maybe they always were nasty.
- masklinn 7y agoThis specific issue is hardly limited to japan. You can sadly find this sort of cases in the US, in India, in Germany, in France, in Belgium, Australia, … From cars getting degraded to harassment to eviction to assault and battery.
- viklove 7y agoI don't think the US has a history of confining them to villages though...
- masklinn 7y agoIt certainly didn't call them villages. Rather preferred "plantation", "ghetto", "reservation", "inner city", "hazardous housing inventory". It also has a history of owning them as furniture, of killing them in many manners, of breaking treaties with them, of hanging them as town event, of not treating them, of banning them from states, cities, neighborhoods, of excluding them from society, public places, social benefits, … and I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch.
- jefftk 7y agoThis is described as "stigma", but it looks like people making reasonable decisions trying to avoid getting sick. The child of someone who works in a hospital really does bring higher than normal risk to their daycare. People with medical jobs not being able to get childcare is a serious problem, but we need dedicated separate childcare if we're going to keep the spread down.
- akiselev 7y agoFor a disease as transmissible as Ebola or the flu that might be true, but for a brand new highly transmissible disease like COVID-19 with limited testing supply, it might be safer to live near someone who might actually have access to regular testing. Do the people stigmatizing healthcare workers have the data to back up your theory? Trying to explain away prejudice with science requires actual science.
- mensetmanusman 7y agoHumans are irrational fear driven creations. Only institutions (involving decision making by multiple humans) can help in these circumstances, because we need each other.
- InfiniteRand 7y agoI know in some places the hospital workers are given decent hotel accommodations, that seems to be a pretty reasonable compromise for medical workers in dense living situations, in some places that would require building some additional places or taking possession of some, but given the amount of slack resources right now that also seems reasonable