10 ms·

Masks4All: Wear a mask to stop the spread of Coronavirus (Jeremy Howard)

118 points by roi 7y ago

kalium-xyz 7y ago
Interesting how the public opinion on this turned around as the virus spread. I wonder if this will lead to people in the west wearing surgical masks during flu season like people do in Asia.
- ardy42 7y ago
  > I wonder if this will lead to people in the west wearing surgical masks during flu season like people do in Asia. Normalizing masks will also help fight facial recognition. IIRC, the Chinese systems have trouble with people who are wearing a surgical mask and sunglasses. No attention-grabbing dazzle makeup required.
  - saturday14 7y ago
    Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety" once the covid-19 crisis blows over. It sucks that we even need to think about wearing masks to escape facial recognition.
    - ardy42 7y ago
      > Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety" once the covid-19 crisis blows over. That's overly fatalistic. China hasn't banned them for that reason, and they're way more interested in that rationale than any government you're likely talking about. > It sucks that we even need to think about wearing masks to escape facial recognition. Avoiding facial recognition isn't just about avoiding the government facial recognition.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        China has a comprehensive surveillance state that has fallbacks for cases when masks are not available.
    - thomascgalvin 7y ago
      Wearing a mask in public is already illegal in many places[1]. It's been illegal in New York since 1845, due to some kind of violent conflict between landlords and tenant farmers. Some laws were targeted at the KKK, and newer laws were targeted at Occupy and Anonymous folks wearing Guy Fawkes masks. This article[2] has a more complete list of state laws against masks, and where they've been overturned. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law#United_States [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-states-where-protesters-cant-wear-masks-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-states-where-prote...
    - pmoriarty 7y ago
      "Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety"" The government did this long ago, as a reaction to the KKK wearing masks to intimidate their victims and hide their identity. So it's actually already against the law to wear masks in public in many places in the US. I've never heard of this law being enforced in modern times, however.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        The situation is a lot more nuanced than that. I challenge you to find an example of a blanket ban on all masks, that doesn't rely on other factors like threatening violence, rallying, intent to hide identity, or a respresenting specific gang design/color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law
        pubstik 7y ago
        'Intent to hide identity' sounds like a human right, criminalized. Unless asked by an officer, and even then in limited circumstances do I have to identify myself.
    - kalium-xyz 7y ago
      They just make you take the mask off to identify yourself when relevant, I had to do this the other day while identifying myself for an immigration officer.
    - mathieuh 7y ago
      I live in Northern Ireland, and until very recently, if I saw a person with a mask on I immediately assumed they were up to no good.
    - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
      The only effective resistance is being in control of information dissemination to the masses. Otherwise you will be marginalized and the masses will be "educated" by the mass media about how evil and troublesome "you people are." Ensuring diversity in information dissemination is absolutely key to shooting down these proposals which harm personal freedom.
- Reebz 7y ago
  While I agree, it wasn’t just general public opinion. In NYC at least, it was widely stated in the media by government officials and doctors that masks were unnecessary if you’re healthy, and actually could be bad because people were 1) removing surgical/n95 masks from supply, 2) wearing a cloth mask improperly sanitized can make you sick with other things. I like how Jeremy’s site has directly addressed those original concerns.
  - chasd00 7y ago
    does it have to be n95 to prevent spread? my understanding was the n95 rating protects you from infected people where a plain old surgical mask protects others from you. In other words, the n95 mask has what it needs to prevent you inhaling the virus where a regular mask has what it needs to prevent a sneeze or cough from escaping to the people around you.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      Can you explain how that could possibly be true? A surgical mask is just a simpler cheaper, less complete and less effective mask than an N95 mask, used in lower risk situations or when N95 is desired but not available. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInfographic-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInf...
    - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
      Your understanding is incomplete. Both filter virus particles with different degrees of effectiveness. Viruses are typically most present in aerosolized droplets which are much much bigger than the gap size of a surgical or n95 mask.
  - throwaway32120 7y ago
    > In NYC at least, it was widely stated in the media by government officials and doctors that masks were unnecessary if you’re healthy, and actually could be bad The WHO and CDC have been pushing that line as well. Studies linked to in the above article suggest that even home made masks provide some protection to healthy individuals. But even if they didn't, getting everyone to wear them would be extremely valuable for stopping the spread coming from people who don't know they have the disease. Also, "Don't come in hear unless you have something covering your face" is an easy rule for establishments to enforce, whereas "If you have Coronavirus you need to cover your face" is impossible to enforce. Yet I've seen almost no leadership at any level in the U.S. pushing this (and this seems to be true in much of the West). Lockdowns buy us time, and we seem to be wasting that.
nyxtom 7y ago
US Surgeon General continues to recommend against this for some reason
- tyingq 7y ago
  They seem convinced it will create a run on masks, leaving none for medical staff. Even though this message is clearly about home-made ones.
- TheSoftwareGuy 7y ago
  It's stupid. N95 masks are in short supply and so should be reserved for healthcare workers and those caring for the infected but sugical masks can still help slow the spread. People should be weraring those in public. But the only messaging from the top is not to wear the masks
  - IgorPartola 7y ago
    There seems to be evidence that masks can make your exposure worse by trapping some amount of air containing the virus under the mask, making you more exposed. If you are sick they can protect others around you, but if you are healthy, less so. In that context the flip of public opinion makes some sense: as we go from assuming most people are healthy to assuming most people are sick, masks for everyone in public can help. Also, don’t forget that in medical facilities N95 masks are fitted specifically to individuals. You can’t just throw one on and be protected. Most people won’t go through the trouble of doing that properly. At that point it’s like putting your shirt over your nose: looks like you are protected but there are giant gaps that let in air.
    - friendcrunch 7y ago
      There is evidence of efficacy in wearing even simple facemasks. Skepticism will lead your imagination to walk in circles [continuing without said mask].
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > At that point it’s like putting your shirt over your nose: looks like you are protected but there are giant gaps that let in air. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ A cut t-shirt over your nose is actually quite good, so long as the pattern is somewhat tested. No, its no where close to an N95 mask, but even aerosol sprays can be somewhat mitigated with a simple cut t-shirt. There are some internet studies suggesting an efficacy of 70% for T-shirts against 1-micron (bacteria) and 0.02 micron (viruses) particles. That's 6x worse than an N95 mask, but much better than unprotected. EDIT: It seems like the flu (also a 0.02 micron virus) is primarily on water-droplets 5 microns in size. So we don't actually have to reach N95 mask levels for a major amount of protection, aiming at the 5 micron sized moisture bubbles is already going to help us severely.
nitrogen 7y ago
Has the mask supply situation improved? I still see empty shelves for things like gloves, sanitizers, etc.
- benjohnson 7y ago
  Yes! China is cranking out 300,000,000 surgical masks per day and they're available on Ali Express. I have 100 in my hand made on 3/15 - most are going to the local hospital today. Have 200 on order and should arrive in five days.
- sixQuarks 7y ago
  The lack of masks and testing in the US is a colossal failure. It's not like a pandemic scenario was not known years in advance, the government failed spectacularly, especially one that spends a trillion dollars per year on "defense"
- sjg007 7y ago
  No.
- halfjoking 7y ago
  I just ordered a couple washable ones from Etsy. The video convinced me I shouldn't keep waiting for them to be back in stock at the store.
- btbuildem 7y ago
  No. This calls on everyone to make their own. Lots of video tutorials, and some examples are dead simple (two rubber bands and a paper towel, if you have to).
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > (two rubber bands and a paper towel, if you have to). Two paper towels and a tissue paper actually. The different materials lead to better filtration and absorption. The theory is to absorb the microscopic moisture that has COVID19 on it. -------- I think the "cut t-shirt" design is easiest. With a bit of sewing effort, you can make it 3-ply or 5-ply for additional protection. Try to get the grains to go in different directions.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Just, please please please make sure they're home-made masks. If you have any professionally-created surgical masks, you should donate them to healthcare workers, who need them much more than you. I live in Manhattan, and I still see people walking around outside with "real" masks.
- lostphilosopher 7y ago
  Good point. Also, from the site: > "Note: Please do not buy surgical or N95 masks because we need to keep those available for the doctors, nurses and first responders so they can stay healthy and care for the ill."
  - uxp100 7y ago
    Kinda dumb point, since a healthcare worker is the one who gave me my single surgical mask in the first place. They don't want you to "donate" back a single used mask that your doctor gave you in the first place.
    - mdturnerphys 7y ago
      I don't think anyone is suggesting that you donate used masks, but you make a good point that we shouldn't assume that someone wearing a professional-grade mask is wearing one that should have gone to a healthcare worker.
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      They also don't want you to keep using a single mask for weeks on end, which is likely worse than not wearing anything since they're a breeding ground for bacteria. They aren't designed to washed, they're supposed to be disposable.
      - remmargorp64 7y ago
        You can actually sanitize and re-use masks by baking them at relatively low temperatures. "If your mask is not made of flammable material, Lin said, you can try putting it in an oven for 30 minutes at 158 degrees Fahrenheit, because the coronavirus is fragile. Doing so can kill off the virus, and “it doesn’t destroy the mask very much,” she said, adding that hanging the mask above a pot of boiling water for about 10 minutes could also help with killing off the virus, but it would need to be air-dried afterward." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reuse-face-mask-coronavirus_l_5e78dbf9c5b63c3b6494ad80 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reuse-face-mask-coronavirus_l...
a9h74j 7y ago
Per Chris Martenson[1], three reasons for every person to wear a mask: - Stops infected people [including asymptomatic] from expelling infectious particles. - Helps remind you not to touch your face [and precludes direct touch to mouth and nose--where mucus membranes are vulnerable]. - Much better chance of a low inoculum [a smaller initial viral load results in less severe symptoms]. [1] https://youtu.be/i6Gy9nPAQE0?t=1988 https://youtu.be/i6Gy9nPAQE0?t=1988
- ardy42 7y ago
  > Helps remind you not to touch your face [and precludes direct touch to mouth and nose--where mucus membranes are vulnerable]. I like these instructional videos about how to put masks on and take them off, because they emphasize that you should be washing your hands when you put the masks on and take them off. How to Put on a Surgical Mask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnTCZWYOBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnTCZWYOBw N95 3M mask: How to Wear & Remove: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxpvDVo_NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxpvDVo_NI The mask won't do as much good if you just end up transferring the virus to your face after taking it off.
  - ethagknight 7y ago
    If the virus is present on your mask, it most likely would have already been in your body without the mask. NNTaleb: Asymmetry: error FROM NOT wearing masks is vastly costlier than the error FROM wearing masks. https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1244976894686179328?s=21 https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1244976894686179328?s=21 EDIT- I think I wasn’t clear— mask is critical protection, and the risk of infection from wearing one incorrectly is far lower than not having one at all. I was just responding to the final paragraph that the mask doesn’t do much good if transferred from mask to mouth during removal— very true, but it also reduces the quantity of the virus ingested.
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > If the virus is present on your mask, it most likely would have already been in your body without the mask. On the contrary. The virus is on the mask. That's why doctors / nurses wear masks, so that the virus gets stuck in the mask instead of in the doctor. Now that the virus is on the mask, you need to treat it as if it were a contaminated object.
brenden2 7y ago
Is there any real evidence that masks provide any value for healthy people (excluding health care workers)? All I've seen are anecdotes from internet armchair experts.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mdturnerphys 7y ago
  Yes! The page links to this document, which gives what appears to be a fairly comprehensive review of the literature: https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic#heading=h.9yzpxufkt5ow https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoO...
- gautamnarula 7y ago
  The parent link has a link to a list of papers[1] that answer this question in the affirmative: For example, "Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population" [2] It's also worth noting that many people with COVID-19 are asymptomatic, so wearing a mask, even a homemade one, could reduce the spread to other healthy people. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/preview# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  "Most cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have occurred in close contacts of SARS patients. However, in Beijing, a large proportion of SARS cases occurred in persons without such contact. We conducted a case-control study in Beijing that compared exposures of 94 unlinked, probable SARS patients with those of 281 community-based controls matched for age group and sex. Case-patients were more likely than controls to have chronic medical conditions or to have visited fever clinics (clinics at which possible SARS patients were separated from other patients), eaten outside the home, or taken taxis frequently. The use of masks was strongly protective. Among 31 case-patients for whom convalescent-phase (>21 days) sera were available, 26% had immunoglobulin G to SARS-associated coronavirus. Our finding that clinical SARS was associated with visits to fever clinics supports Beijing's strategy of closing clinics with poor infection-control measures. Our finding that mask use lowered the risk for disease supports the community's use of this strategy." https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/2/03-0730_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/2/03-0730_article
kareemm 7y ago
I feel like there's a good business here. Like T-shirts, I can see masks becoming another form of self-expression e.g. branded masks, funny slogans, etc.
- fieryscribe 7y ago
  This has already happened in HK, as Hong Kongers use masks to protect their identity and to express themselves during the protests
- chasd00 7y ago
  that's an interesting idea! I've seen personalized welding masks. You'd have to make sure it doesn't interfere with the functioning of the mask. Just producing them in different colors would be a start.
- btbuildem 7y ago
  Maybe after things have settled down. Right now, the right thing to do is to hand those out free to everyone, to normalize the safe behaviour. You can make your buck later.
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  Funky bicycle masks with colors or logos were often 30-80€ in 2016, and despite not being even FFP1. There is an opportunity, but there is also a feeling that health apparel should be bland and ugly if they are serious. It’s like wearing a suit at a programmer interview: Often a hint that one aspires more to the commercial side than the technical side, despite both being competent.
- pubstik 7y ago
  Quite a few already doing that. I know over at coquetryclothing.com they used to decline to make masks due to possible liability reasons. Now they are making custom ones with all manner of fabrics.
lvturner 7y ago
One thing often missed with the mask story is that they (generally) stop you touching your mouth and face as frequently. Assuming touching your mouth with a 'dirty' hand is a major infection vector, then a home made mask would indeed be of some use. Hong Kong scientists also developed and tested a few home made designs, make of them what you will. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3050689/how-make-your-own-mask-hong-kong-scientists https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/artic...
- spoovy 7y ago
  The UK deputy chief medical officer stated the opposite, that wearing a mask is likely to cause you to touch your face more, in order to adjust the mask etc. That was the first whiff of mask-related bullshit I caught.
billfruit 7y ago
WHO still recommend not wearing mask, unless you are infected or caring for an infected person.
- leviathant 7y ago
  If symptoms don't show up for days, how do you know you're not infected?
- drcode 7y ago
  Yeah, it's a stain on scientific institutions that the WHO and CDC are peddling unscientific nonsense. Makes me sad.
  - slantyyz 7y ago
    There's now a report that the CDC may start encouraging people to cover their faces in public. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/490308-cdc-may-urge-americans-to-cover-faces-in-public-report https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/490308-cdc-may-u...
- yorwba 7y ago
  They do not recommend wearing a mask, which is different from recommending not to wear a mask. Edit: Here's the WHO's stance on wearing masks: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
  - billfruit 7y ago
    Thanks for clarifying, I had wrote it wrongly.
  - scarlac 7y ago
    This is an unfortunate side effect of how it's worded in many English articles. And like a game of telephone, the precision is lost in communication in social settings/media and people are telling each other to not wear masks (at least that's what I'm seeing)
graposaymaname 7y ago
Quoting from the WHO/emergencies website[1] > If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection. The World Health Organization still recommends that you wear masks only if you're taking care of someone with COVID-19. Why is it so? Like if the evidence is so clear, why aren't they advising the general public about this? (PS. non-native english speaker, ignore poor english) [1]https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
- yamrzou 7y ago
  Maybe to prevent a rush on surgical masks so that they are kept for health workers who need them the most?
  - graposaymaname 7y ago
    But then they could advertise using home made masks no?
  - eden_hazard 7y ago
    That's another lie. Go to HD or Walmart and ask them how long they've been out of stock for. There was never a rush in the US. Healthcare workers should have their own supply from hospitals.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  The WHO is, unfortunately, not a reliable source. They've repeatedly lied throughout the course of this pandemic. This is probably a well-intentioned one to preserve the global supply of masks, unlike previous lies which served only to make China look good, but the bottom line is that you shouldn't trust what they have to say.
  - eden_hazard 7y ago
    CDC has said the same. Now people defend them saying they lied because they didn't want the public to hoard them but mask supply chains have been effected since probably January. I went to multiple Home Depots (upstate NY) end of February and they all told me they've been out of stock for more than a month. We couldn't hoard them even if we wanted to. Why even lie? It's pretty damn infuriating. Sk, HK, and Taiwan all have it under control because people there have been a lot more careful. They don't leave the house without a mask. Meanwhile in NYC, people were all casual about it up until maybe last week. Partly because of the delay in government response.
dragontamer 7y ago
So, here's some information I've been seeing about masks. 1. After breathing in a mask for a while, the outside is now "potentially contaminated" with COVID19. Treat the outside of a mask as if it were infected. Do NOT touch the mask while using it. Do NOT rub your eyes, etc. etc. Do NOT put on the mask backwards. It is recommended to color-code the inside and outside to make it easier to see. 2. There are a ton of discussions about how to disinfect a cloth mask. Kitchen equipment is commonly recommended. Boiling the mask, letting it sit in the oven for some time, etc. etc. You only need to raise the temperature to ~212F or so (boiling) to disinfect. (maybe lower, but boiling is easy because the bubbling water serves as a temperature gauge). There may be easier chemical treatments, such as bleach when you're washing the cloth mask. But boiling is obviously safe. ---------- Note that "N95" masks are only 95% effective against viruses (even if you did everything correctly). Homemade masks will probably only reach 70% or maybe as low as 50%. You aren't invulnerable, you just have a layer of protection on. I think this "home made mask" idea is very good. We need to leave the N95 masks for professionals, because the USA has a mask shortage (and N95 masks are disposable. One-time use). Home-made masks can be reused through washing.
- bmn__ 7y ago
  Do not boil or steam respirator masks. It destroys the material and renders it less effective, sometimes drastically so. Instead disinfect them with dry heat in an oven or rice cooker. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22680799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22680799
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ Perhaps my advice is specific to repurposed T-shirt masks then. But this study boiled the masks before testing and use. The study was designed for poorer countries without as much infrastructure. Which is why the materials are so simple and the methods crude. But those attributes are very useful for the DIY community.
  - gjlawran 7y ago
    Here is an awesome technical video on using different methods to clean and reuse masks. Deals with Ozone, Alcohol, UV other disinfectants https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UdtKssU7po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UdtKssU7po
gjlawran 7y ago
This guy does an amazing piece on masks, gloves and sanitation. Also explains how to remove masks properly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0&t=1217s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0&t=1217s
dumbfounder 7y ago
Great website, I just have one suggestion. Before the message to wear a mask have in big red letters: "DO NOT GO OUT IN PUBLIC UNLESS IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY! No mask is more effective than simply not being around other people. BUT, if you absolutely must go out..."
- Symmetry 7y ago
  To echo this, wearing a surgical mask consistently will maybe decrease your odds of getting Covid-19 by a factor of 3. That isn't the same as being immune so don't take unnecessary risks.
  - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
    No, it's a reduction by a factor of 1000 or more. Doctors use them around infected patients and doctors aren't dropping dead like flies.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      With Covid-19 they are. One in Italy; 9 in the Phillippines; two in America; several in China. This is not normal.
      - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
        Those cases cannot be conclusively linked to a failure of the masks to filter. Ergo, I'm not wrong yet.
        JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        That's not science; that's arguing to a point. Presumably, these doctors didn't die during last year's flu epidemic. Nor during the previous years or decades of their practice. So something is different this year. Something they normally do to protect themselves, that isn't working this year. Hm, they use hand washing, gowns, gloves, masks. Which one, do you think?
kriro 7y ago
My mother just finished sowing 100 washable ones so they can use them in the elderly care home she works in (she used the guide provided by the city of Essen, Germany). They still have some left but estimated they'll run out soon and asked for volunteers to sow them in their free time. She and a coworker combined to make about 200 in a couple of days which should be enough to cover all shifts. While I was thinking about my homemade one I thought that steam ironing is probably a good and quick way to disinfect (for those that have an iron).
seltzered_ 7y ago
Note: hn has been flagging mask discussions See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22733249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22733249 And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 I'm not too frustrated about this because there's a lot of confusion on mask usage, people buying masks that doctors need, etc.
peterwwillis 7y ago
If you're not infected, a mask doesn't cover your eyes, so you can still get the virus in the same way you would by breathing near an infected person. And you're probably going to think you're safe, and then touch an infected surface, and then touch your face/eyes. Congrats, your dinky non-N95 mask was pointless. If you are infected, just use any mask. Your breath still escapes from an N95 mask's corners, spreading the virus nearby, and probably onto your hands. Sure, it won't projectile-travel as far, but it's still spilling out onto nearby surfaces/people. In Asia, face masks have been trendy ever since the avian flu. But tons of studies showed that this had no significant effect on reducing people getting sick, because eyes, and touching face. The masks are just a psychological thing at this point.
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  So how do you know if you are infected?
kalium-xyz 7y ago
Ever since I saw a some officials wearing safety glasses I've been wondering: is eye protection effective against coronavirus (or were these people paranoid about getting sneezed in the eyes)?
- seltzered_ 7y ago
  The eyes are a possible entry point for droplet transmission, so yes as it being part of other protections (mask, washing hands). Some have used/made face shields.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  From a recent episode of This Week in Virology[1]: "Historically, in a lot of health care settings there was limited attention [to eye protection], and part of droplet protection, part of being protected when someone coughs or sneezes is protecting your eyes as well. Actually, going in to this I was pretty heavy on re-education at one of the hospitals about: if someone's on droplet, you gotta protect your eyes. Because influenza, you get that in your eyes you can get infected. SARS-CoV-2, you get that in your eyes you can end up with COVID-19. So eye protection is important as well." [1] - http://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-593/ http://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-593/ at about 1 hour and 58 minutes in to the program
phtrivier 7y ago
Please find a word that means "an ordinary piece of fabric that you can build yourself and wear if you're not sick". At least in France, "Wear a mask" would be understood as "wear an FFP2, surgical-level" mask. The kind of masks: * that we are in very short supply of at the moment (for various and sad reasons) * that we have to save for doctors * that everybody would try to buy on black markets if you asked them to use * that we unfortunately told people not to try and buy (precisely because we need to save them for doctors because they are in short supply, etc...) So if a campaign started today saying "wear a mask", with the intention of saying "cover your mouth with a piece of fabric that you made yourself if you're not sick", I suspect it would be counter-productive. We need another word.
- travisporter 7y ago
  Homemade mask or bandana? Although the latter would probably not fit well over nose and mouth.
- gullyfur 7y ago
  "Make a mask" instead of "Wear a mask". Build, don't buy?
- scarlac 7y ago
  Try translating using things like face-cover / mouth-cover / facial protection / facial protection equipment?
- edanm 7y ago
  Very interesting linguistically. My Argentinian wife tells me it's similar in Spanish - a mask would mean an N95 mask or similar. And a surgical mask would not be included if I understand correctly (they are not as good as N95 masks, they're mostly just a piece of fabric).
threatofrain 7y ago
Apple should make FaceID better at identifying faces through masks so people aren’t tempted to remove their mask to use contactless payment.
- scarlac 7y ago
  Considering humans often use masks like these to conceal their identity, it's probably going to be difficult if not impossible to make it work reliably. For those using an Apple Watch it will be easier to pay that way.

118 points by roi 7y ago

Interesting how the public opinion on this turned around as the virus spread. I wonder if this will lead to people in the west wearing surgical masks during flu season like people do in Asia.

ardy42 7y ago
> I wonder if this will lead to people in the west wearing surgical masks during flu season like people do in Asia. Normalizing masks will also help fight facial recognition. IIRC, the Chinese systems have trouble with people who are wearing a surgical mask and sunglasses. No attention-grabbing dazzle makeup required.
- saturday14 7y ago
  Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety" once the covid-19 crisis blows over. It sucks that we even need to think about wearing masks to escape facial recognition.
  - ardy42 7y ago
    > Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety" once the covid-19 crisis blows over. That's overly fatalistic. China hasn't banned them for that reason, and they're way more interested in that rationale than any government you're likely talking about. > It sucks that we even need to think about wearing masks to escape facial recognition. Avoiding facial recognition isn't just about avoiding the government facial recognition.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      China has a comprehensive surveillance state that has fallbacks for cases when masks are not available.
  - thomascgalvin 7y ago
    Wearing a mask in public is already illegal in many places[1]. It's been illegal in New York since 1845, due to some kind of violent conflict between landlords and tenant farmers. Some laws were targeted at the KKK, and newer laws were targeted at Occupy and Anonymous folks wearing Guy Fawkes masks. This article[2] has a more complete list of state laws against masks, and where they've been overturned. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law#United_States [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-states-where-protesters-cant-wear-masks-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-states-where-prote...
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    "Until the government bans masks in public places in the interest of, you know "public safety"" The government did this long ago, as a reaction to the KKK wearing masks to intimidate their victims and hide their identity. So it's actually already against the law to wear masks in public in many places in the US. I've never heard of this law being enforced in modern times, however.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      The situation is a lot more nuanced than that. I challenge you to find an example of a blanket ban on all masks, that doesn't rely on other factors like threatening violence, rallying, intent to hide identity, or a respresenting specific gang design/color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law
      - pubstik 7y ago
        'Intent to hide identity' sounds like a human right, criminalized. Unless asked by an officer, and even then in limited circumstances do I have to identify myself.
  - kalium-xyz 7y ago
    They just make you take the mask off to identify yourself when relevant, I had to do this the other day while identifying myself for an immigration officer.
  - mathieuh 7y ago
    I live in Northern Ireland, and until very recently, if I saw a person with a mask on I immediately assumed they were up to no good.
  - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
    The only effective resistance is being in control of information dissemination to the masses. Otherwise you will be marginalized and the masses will be "educated" by the mass media about how evil and troublesome "you people are." Ensuring diversity in information dissemination is absolutely key to shooting down these proposals which harm personal freedom.
Reebz 7y ago
While I agree, it wasn’t just general public opinion. In NYC at least, it was widely stated in the media by government officials and doctors that masks were unnecessary if you’re healthy, and actually could be bad because people were 1) removing surgical/n95 masks from supply, 2) wearing a cloth mask improperly sanitized can make you sick with other things. I like how Jeremy’s site has directly addressed those original concerns.
- chasd00 7y ago
  does it have to be n95 to prevent spread? my understanding was the n95 rating protects you from infected people where a plain old surgical mask protects others from you. In other words, the n95 mask has what it needs to prevent you inhaling the virus where a regular mask has what it needs to prevent a sneeze or cough from escaping to the people around you.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Can you explain how that could possibly be true? A surgical mask is just a simpler cheaper, less complete and less effective mask than an N95 mask, used in lower risk situations or when N95 is desired but not available. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInfographic-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInf...
  - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
    Your understanding is incomplete. Both filter virus particles with different degrees of effectiveness. Viruses are typically most present in aerosolized droplets which are much much bigger than the gap size of a surgical or n95 mask.
- throwaway32120 7y ago
  > In NYC at least, it was widely stated in the media by government officials and doctors that masks were unnecessary if you’re healthy, and actually could be bad The WHO and CDC have been pushing that line as well. Studies linked to in the above article suggest that even home made masks provide some protection to healthy individuals. But even if they didn't, getting everyone to wear them would be extremely valuable for stopping the spread coming from people who don't know they have the disease. Also, "Don't come in hear unless you have something covering your face" is an easy rule for establishments to enforce, whereas "If you have Coronavirus you need to cover your face" is impossible to enforce. Yet I've seen almost no leadership at any level in the U.S. pushing this (and this seems to be true in much of the West). Lockdowns buy us time, and we seem to be wasting that.

nyxtom 7y ago

US Surgeon General continues to recommend against this for some reason

tyingq 7y ago
They seem convinced it will create a run on masks, leaving none for medical staff. Even though this message is clearly about home-made ones.
TheSoftwareGuy 7y ago
It's stupid. N95 masks are in short supply and so should be reserved for healthcare workers and those caring for the infected but sugical masks can still help slow the spread. People should be weraring those in public. But the only messaging from the top is not to wear the masks
- IgorPartola 7y ago
  There seems to be evidence that masks can make your exposure worse by trapping some amount of air containing the virus under the mask, making you more exposed. If you are sick they can protect others around you, but if you are healthy, less so. In that context the flip of public opinion makes some sense: as we go from assuming most people are healthy to assuming most people are sick, masks for everyone in public can help. Also, don’t forget that in medical facilities N95 masks are fitted specifically to individuals. You can’t just throw one on and be protected. Most people won’t go through the trouble of doing that properly. At that point it’s like putting your shirt over your nose: looks like you are protected but there are giant gaps that let in air.
  - friendcrunch 7y ago
    There is evidence of efficacy in wearing even simple facemasks. Skepticism will lead your imagination to walk in circles [continuing without said mask].
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > At that point it’s like putting your shirt over your nose: looks like you are protected but there are giant gaps that let in air. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ A cut t-shirt over your nose is actually quite good, so long as the pattern is somewhat tested. No, its no where close to an N95 mask, but even aerosol sprays can be somewhat mitigated with a simple cut t-shirt. There are some internet studies suggesting an efficacy of 70% for T-shirts against 1-micron (bacteria) and 0.02 micron (viruses) particles. That's 6x worse than an N95 mask, but much better than unprotected. EDIT: It seems like the flu (also a 0.02 micron virus) is primarily on water-droplets 5 microns in size. So we don't actually have to reach N95 mask levels for a major amount of protection, aiming at the 5 micron sized moisture bubbles is already going to help us severely.

nitrogen 7y ago

Has the mask supply situation improved? I still see empty shelves for things like gloves, sanitizers, etc.

benjohnson 7y ago
Yes! China is cranking out 300,000,000 surgical masks per day and they're available on Ali Express. I have 100 in my hand made on 3/15 - most are going to the local hospital today. Have 200 on order and should arrive in five days.
sixQuarks 7y ago
The lack of masks and testing in the US is a colossal failure. It's not like a pandemic scenario was not known years in advance, the government failed spectacularly, especially one that spends a trillion dollars per year on "defense"
sjg007 7y ago
No.
halfjoking 7y ago
I just ordered a couple washable ones from Etsy. The video convinced me I shouldn't keep waiting for them to be back in stock at the store.
btbuildem 7y ago
No. This calls on everyone to make their own. Lots of video tutorials, and some examples are dead simple (two rubber bands and a paper towel, if you have to).
- dragontamer 7y ago
  > (two rubber bands and a paper towel, if you have to). Two paper towels and a tissue paper actually. The different materials lead to better filtration and absorption. The theory is to absorb the microscopic moisture that has COVID19 on it. -------- I think the "cut t-shirt" design is easiest. With a bit of sewing effort, you can make it 3-ply or 5-ply for additional protection. Try to get the grains to go in different directions.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

Just, please please please make sure they're home-made masks. If you have any professionally-created surgical masks, you should donate them to healthcare workers, who need them much more than you. I live in Manhattan, and I still see people walking around outside with "real" masks.

lostphilosopher 7y ago
Good point. Also, from the site: > "Note: Please do not buy surgical or N95 masks because we need to keep those available for the doctors, nurses and first responders so they can stay healthy and care for the ill."
- uxp100 7y ago
  Kinda dumb point, since a healthcare worker is the one who gave me my single surgical mask in the first place. They don't want you to "donate" back a single used mask that your doctor gave you in the first place.
  - mdturnerphys 7y ago
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that you donate used masks, but you make a good point that we shouldn't assume that someone wearing a professional-grade mask is wearing one that should have gone to a healthcare worker.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    They also don't want you to keep using a single mask for weeks on end, which is likely worse than not wearing anything since they're a breeding ground for bacteria. They aren't designed to washed, they're supposed to be disposable.
    - remmargorp64 7y ago
      You can actually sanitize and re-use masks by baking them at relatively low temperatures. "If your mask is not made of flammable material, Lin said, you can try putting it in an oven for 30 minutes at 158 degrees Fahrenheit, because the coronavirus is fragile. Doing so can kill off the virus, and “it doesn’t destroy the mask very much,” she said, adding that hanging the mask above a pot of boiling water for about 10 minutes could also help with killing off the virus, but it would need to be air-dried afterward." https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reuse-face-mask-coronavirus_l_5e78dbf9c5b63c3b6494ad80 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reuse-face-mask-coronavirus_l...

a9h74j 7y ago

Per Chris Martenson[1], three reasons for every person to wear a mask: - Stops infected people [including asymptomatic] from expelling infectious particles. - Helps remind you not to touch your face [and precludes direct touch to mouth and nose--where mucus membranes are vulnerable]. - Much better chance of a low inoculum [a smaller initial viral load results in less severe symptoms]. [1] https://youtu.be/i6Gy9nPAQE0?t=1988 https://youtu.be/i6Gy9nPAQE0?t=1988

ardy42 7y ago
> Helps remind you not to touch your face [and precludes direct touch to mouth and nose--where mucus membranes are vulnerable]. I like these instructional videos about how to put masks on and take them off, because they emphasize that you should be washing your hands when you put the masks on and take them off. How to Put on a Surgical Mask: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnTCZWYOBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnTCZWYOBw N95 3M mask: How to Wear & Remove: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxpvDVo_NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxpvDVo_NI The mask won't do as much good if you just end up transferring the virus to your face after taking it off.
- ethagknight 7y ago
  If the virus is present on your mask, it most likely would have already been in your body without the mask. NNTaleb: Asymmetry: error FROM NOT wearing masks is vastly costlier than the error FROM wearing masks. https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1244976894686179328?s=21 https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1244976894686179328?s=21 EDIT- I think I wasn’t clear— mask is critical protection, and the risk of infection from wearing one incorrectly is far lower than not having one at all. I was just responding to the final paragraph that the mask doesn’t do much good if transferred from mask to mouth during removal— very true, but it also reduces the quantity of the virus ingested.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > If the virus is present on your mask, it most likely would have already been in your body without the mask. On the contrary. The virus is on the mask. That's why doctors / nurses wear masks, so that the virus gets stuck in the mask instead of in the doctor. Now that the virus is on the mask, you need to treat it as if it were a contaminated object.

brenden2 7y ago

Is there any real evidence that masks provide any value for healthy people (excluding health care workers)? All I've seen are anecdotes from internet armchair experts.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mdturnerphys 7y ago
Yes! The page links to this document, which gives what appears to be a fairly comprehensive review of the literature: https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/mobilebasic#heading=h.9yzpxufkt5ow https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoO...
gautamnarula 7y ago
The parent link has a link to a list of papers[1] that answer this question in the affirmative: For example, "Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population" [2] It's also worth noting that many people with COVID-19 are asymptomatic, so wearing a mask, even a homemade one, could reduce the spread to other healthy people. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4pt4oFDBhsC_jpblXpNtQ/preview# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLrm0pqBN_5bdyysOeoOBX4p... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/
pmoriarty 7y ago
"Most cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have occurred in close contacts of SARS patients. However, in Beijing, a large proportion of SARS cases occurred in persons without such contact. We conducted a case-control study in Beijing that compared exposures of 94 unlinked, probable SARS patients with those of 281 community-based controls matched for age group and sex. Case-patients were more likely than controls to have chronic medical conditions or to have visited fever clinics (clinics at which possible SARS patients were separated from other patients), eaten outside the home, or taken taxis frequently. The use of masks was strongly protective. Among 31 case-patients for whom convalescent-phase (>21 days) sera were available, 26% had immunoglobulin G to SARS-associated coronavirus. Our finding that clinical SARS was associated with visits to fever clinics supports Beijing's strategy of closing clinics with poor infection-control measures. Our finding that mask use lowered the risk for disease supports the community's use of this strategy." https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/2/03-0730_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/2/03-0730_article

kareemm 7y ago

I feel like there's a good business here. Like T-shirts, I can see masks becoming another form of self-expression e.g. branded masks, funny slogans, etc.

fieryscribe 7y ago
This has already happened in HK, as Hong Kongers use masks to protect their identity and to express themselves during the protests
chasd00 7y ago
that's an interesting idea! I've seen personalized welding masks. You'd have to make sure it doesn't interfere with the functioning of the mask. Just producing them in different colors would be a start.
btbuildem 7y ago
Maybe after things have settled down. Right now, the right thing to do is to hand those out free to everyone, to normalize the safe behaviour. You can make your buck later.
alexis_fr 7y ago
Funky bicycle masks with colors or logos were often 30-80€ in 2016, and despite not being even FFP1. There is an opportunity, but there is also a feeling that health apparel should be bland and ugly if they are serious. It’s like wearing a suit at a programmer interview: Often a hint that one aspires more to the commercial side than the technical side, despite both being competent.
pubstik 7y ago
Quite a few already doing that. I know over at coquetryclothing.com they used to decline to make masks due to possible liability reasons. Now they are making custom ones with all manner of fabrics.

lvturner 7y ago

One thing often missed with the mask story is that they (generally) stop you touching your mouth and face as frequently. Assuming touching your mouth with a 'dirty' hand is a major infection vector, then a home made mask would indeed be of some use. Hong Kong scientists also developed and tested a few home made designs, make of them what you will. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3050689/how-make-your-own-mask-hong-kong-scientists https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/artic...

spoovy 7y ago
The UK deputy chief medical officer stated the opposite, that wearing a mask is likely to cause you to touch your face more, in order to adjust the mask etc. That was the first whiff of mask-related bullshit I caught.

billfruit 7y ago

WHO still recommend not wearing mask, unless you are infected or caring for an infected person.

leviathant 7y ago
If symptoms don't show up for days, how do you know you're not infected?
drcode 7y ago
Yeah, it's a stain on scientific institutions that the WHO and CDC are peddling unscientific nonsense. Makes me sad.
- slantyyz 7y ago
  There's now a report that the CDC may start encouraging people to cover their faces in public. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/490308-cdc-may-urge-americans-to-cover-faces-in-public-report https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/490308-cdc-may-u...
yorwba 7y ago
They do not recommend wearing a mask, which is different from recommending not to wear a mask. Edit: Here's the WHO's stance on wearing masks: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
- billfruit 7y ago
  Thanks for clarifying, I had wrote it wrongly.
- scarlac 7y ago
  This is an unfortunate side effect of how it's worded in many English articles. And like a game of telephone, the precision is lost in communication in social settings/media and people are telling each other to not wear masks (at least that's what I'm seeing)

graposaymaname 7y ago

Quoting from the WHO/emergencies website[1] > If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection. The World Health Organization still recommends that you wear masks only if you're taking care of someone with COVID-19. Why is it so? Like if the evidence is so clear, why aren't they advising the general public about this? (PS. non-native english speaker, ignore poor english) [1]https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...

yamrzou 7y ago
Maybe to prevent a rush on surgical masks so that they are kept for health workers who need them the most?
- graposaymaname 7y ago
  But then they could advertise using home made masks no?
- eden_hazard 7y ago
  That's another lie. Go to HD or Walmart and ask them how long they've been out of stock for. There was never a rush in the US. Healthcare workers should have their own supply from hospitals.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
The WHO is, unfortunately, not a reliable source. They've repeatedly lied throughout the course of this pandemic. This is probably a well-intentioned one to preserve the global supply of masks, unlike previous lies which served only to make China look good, but the bottom line is that you shouldn't trust what they have to say.
- eden_hazard 7y ago
  CDC has said the same. Now people defend them saying they lied because they didn't want the public to hoard them but mask supply chains have been effected since probably January. I went to multiple Home Depots (upstate NY) end of February and they all told me they've been out of stock for more than a month. We couldn't hoard them even if we wanted to. Why even lie? It's pretty damn infuriating. Sk, HK, and Taiwan all have it under control because people there have been a lot more careful. They don't leave the house without a mask. Meanwhile in NYC, people were all casual about it up until maybe last week. Partly because of the delay in government response.

dragontamer 7y ago

So, here's some information I've been seeing about masks. 1. After breathing in a mask for a while, the outside is now "potentially contaminated" with COVID19. Treat the outside of a mask as if it were infected. Do NOT touch the mask while using it. Do NOT rub your eyes, etc. etc. Do NOT put on the mask backwards. It is recommended to color-code the inside and outside to make it easier to see. 2. There are a ton of discussions about how to disinfect a cloth mask. Kitchen equipment is commonly recommended. Boiling the mask, letting it sit in the oven for some time, etc. etc. You only need to raise the temperature to ~212F or so (boiling) to disinfect. (maybe lower, but boiling is easy because the bubbling water serves as a temperature gauge). There may be easier chemical treatments, such as bleach when you're washing the cloth mask. But boiling is obviously safe. ---------- Note that "N95" masks are only 95% effective against viruses (even if you did everything correctly). Homemade masks will probably only reach 70% or maybe as low as 50%. You aren't invulnerable, you just have a layer of protection on. I think this "home made mask" idea is very good. We need to leave the N95 masks for professionals, because the USA has a mask shortage (and N95 masks are disposable. One-time use). Home-made masks can be reused through washing.

bmn__ 7y ago
Do not boil or steam respirator masks. It destroys the material and renders it less effective, sometimes drastically so. Instead disinfect them with dry heat in an oven or rice cooker. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22680799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22680799
- dragontamer 7y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3373043/ Perhaps my advice is specific to repurposed T-shirt masks then. But this study boiled the masks before testing and use. The study was designed for poorer countries without as much infrastructure. Which is why the materials are so simple and the methods crude. But those attributes are very useful for the DIY community.
- gjlawran 7y ago
  Here is an awesome technical video on using different methods to clean and reuse masks. Deals with Ozone, Alcohol, UV other disinfectants https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UdtKssU7po https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UdtKssU7po

gjlawran 7y ago

This guy does an amazing piece on masks, gloves and sanitation. Also explains how to remove masks properly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0&t=1217s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWBG_fbJR0&t=1217s

dumbfounder 7y ago

Great website, I just have one suggestion. Before the message to wear a mask have in big red letters: "DO NOT GO OUT IN PUBLIC UNLESS IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY! No mask is more effective than simply not being around other people. BUT, if you absolutely must go out..."

Symmetry 7y ago
To echo this, wearing a surgical mask consistently will maybe decrease your odds of getting Covid-19 by a factor of 3. That isn't the same as being immune so don't take unnecessary risks.
- ThrowAway83774 7y ago
  No, it's a reduction by a factor of 1000 or more. Doctors use them around infected patients and doctors aren't dropping dead like flies.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    With Covid-19 they are. One in Italy; 9 in the Phillippines; two in America; several in China. This is not normal.
    - ThrowAway83774 7y ago
      Those cases cannot be conclusively linked to a failure of the masks to filter. Ergo, I'm not wrong yet.
      - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        That's not science; that's arguing to a point. Presumably, these doctors didn't die during last year's flu epidemic. Nor during the previous years or decades of their practice. So something is different this year. Something they normally do to protect themselves, that isn't working this year. Hm, they use hand washing, gowns, gloves, masks. Which one, do you think?

kriro 7y ago

My mother just finished sowing 100 washable ones so they can use them in the elderly care home she works in (she used the guide provided by the city of Essen, Germany). They still have some left but estimated they'll run out soon and asked for volunteers to sow them in their free time. She and a coworker combined to make about 200 in a couple of days which should be enough to cover all shifts. While I was thinking about my homemade one I thought that steam ironing is probably a good and quick way to disinfect (for those that have an iron).

seltzered_ 7y ago

Note: hn has been flagging mask discussions See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22733249 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22733249 And https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22706216 I'm not too frustrated about this because there's a lot of confusion on mask usage, people buying masks that doctors need, etc.

peterwwillis 7y ago

If you're not infected, a mask doesn't cover your eyes, so you can still get the virus in the same way you would by breathing near an infected person. And you're probably going to think you're safe, and then touch an infected surface, and then touch your face/eyes. Congrats, your dinky non-N95 mask was pointless. If you are infected, just use any mask. Your breath still escapes from an N95 mask's corners, spreading the virus nearby, and probably onto your hands. Sure, it won't projectile-travel as far, but it's still spilling out onto nearby surfaces/people. In Asia, face masks have been trendy ever since the avian flu. But tons of studies showed that this had no significant effect on reducing people getting sick, because eyes, and touching face. The masks are just a psychological thing at this point.

amanaplanacanal 7y ago
So how do you know if you are infected?

kalium-xyz 7y ago

Ever since I saw a some officials wearing safety glasses I've been wondering: is eye protection effective against coronavirus (or were these people paranoid about getting sneezed in the eyes)?

seltzered_ 7y ago
The eyes are a possible entry point for droplet transmission, so yes as it being part of other protections (mask, washing hands). Some have used/made face shields.
pmoriarty 7y ago
From a recent episode of This Week in Virology[1]: "Historically, in a lot of health care settings there was limited attention [to eye protection], and part of droplet protection, part of being protected when someone coughs or sneezes is protecting your eyes as well. Actually, going in to this I was pretty heavy on re-education at one of the hospitals about: if someone's on droplet, you gotta protect your eyes. Because influenza, you get that in your eyes you can get infected. SARS-CoV-2, you get that in your eyes you can end up with COVID-19. So eye protection is important as well." [1] - http://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-593/ http://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-593/ at about 1 hour and 58 minutes in to the program

phtrivier 7y ago

Please find a word that means "an ordinary piece of fabric that you can build yourself and wear if you're not sick". At least in France, "Wear a mask" would be understood as "wear an FFP2, surgical-level" mask. The kind of masks: * that we are in very short supply of at the moment (for various and sad reasons) * that we have to save for doctors * that everybody would try to buy on black markets if you asked them to use * that we unfortunately told people not to try and buy (precisely because we need to save them for doctors because they are in short supply, etc...) So if a campaign started today saying "wear a mask", with the intention of saying "cover your mouth with a piece of fabric that you made yourself if you're not sick", I suspect it would be counter-productive. We need another word.

travisporter 7y ago
Homemade mask or bandana? Although the latter would probably not fit well over nose and mouth.
gullyfur 7y ago
"Make a mask" instead of "Wear a mask". Build, don't buy?
scarlac 7y ago
Try translating using things like face-cover / mouth-cover / facial protection / facial protection equipment?
edanm 7y ago
Very interesting linguistically. My Argentinian wife tells me it's similar in Spanish - a mask would mean an N95 mask or similar. And a surgical mask would not be included if I understand correctly (they are not as good as N95 masks, they're mostly just a piece of fabric).

threatofrain 7y ago

Apple should make FaceID better at identifying faces through masks so people aren’t tempted to remove their mask to use contactless payment.

scarlac 7y ago
Considering humans often use masks like these to conceal their identity, it's probably going to be difficult if not impossible to make it work reliably. For those using an Apple Watch it will be easier to pay that way.