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Citroën introduces a two-seat EV that costs €2,644 and then €19.99 a month
- iambateman 7y agoThis looks cool! I wonder if it would be feasible/worth it to incorporate a pedal assist system to lengthen the range. Also I would love a convertible version. What about safety? Especially rolling? Would this work in the US from a regulatory standpoint?
- xchaotic 7y agoWell would it have a chance with a loaded F150 towing something? Murica still has ways to catch up on a healthy lifestyle.
- jascii 7y agoAt a maximum speed of 28mpg it might classify as an electric bicycle, just like for instance the ELF: https://organictransit.com/ https://organictransit.com/ Some states however define a bicycle as having a maximum of 3 wheels, so that might be an issue.
- californical 7y agoSeems a little misleading that it's €19.99/mo after a €2644.00 down payment. Still cheap, but not THAT cheap.
- Reedx 7y ago> The Ami is not classified as a motor vehicle. As such, operators do not need a license and can be as young as 14 in France and 16 in other European countries. Interesting. How did they get around that classification, and for something that operates on the street?
- gregschlom 7y agoProbably something around max horsepower of the motor.
- walshemj 7y agoFrance has a special low power category for vehicles
- darkwater 7y agoI would say all Europe has the same concept, or at least France, Spain and Italy for sure. For gasoline vehicles they just need to be less then 50cc and max speed less then 50km/h. They've been existing for years.
- jacquesm 7y agoTypically they run on small, very dirty one cylinder diesels.
- de_watcher 7y agoand they are extremely noisy and must be exterminated.
- Symbiote 7y agoAll the EU has more or less the same vehicle categories. https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/vehicle-categories_en https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/vehicle-categ... (for a start)
- myself248 7y agoWe have them in the US too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle
- eMSF 7y agoI doubt it's not classified as a motor vehicle - it's just not classified as a car, but a light quadricycle (L6e). Similar ICE-powered vehicles are rather popular with younger folks and some of the elderly, at least in countries where a full license is only available at 18. These vehicles are not without drawbacks, though, as they have poor crashworthiness (even in the kind of accidents they may very well get to).
- jacquesm 7y agoThe say way light vehicles for the disabled and the elderly are approved, for instance, Aixam. https://www.aixam.nl/ https://www.aixam.nl/
- AnssiH 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classi... It is not driving license free in most countries, though. E.g. in Finland an AM/121 class license is required (above a moped AM/120 but below a motorbike A or regular car B), which you can get at 15 years old.
- jonas21 7y ago> It can be rented long term at a cost of €19.99 (including VAT) per month with an initial payment of €2,644. Seems like a bit of a stretch to call that €19.99/mo when you also need to pay the equivalent of 11 years of rent up front.
- gregschlom 7y agoThe fact that this doesn't require a driver's license to operate is a big deal given how difficult and expensive (around 1000 euros) it is to get a driver's license in France.
- pletsch 7y agoWhy is it so expensive? Is there required courses? I can understand that in cities, a DL might not be a huge deal but I can't imagine that rural France would be happy with that.
- jacquesm 7y agoBecause they actually want their drivers to be reasonably good. What goes for a driving exam in some countries is not up to standards in others. 50-60 hours of instruction isn't rare at all where I live.
- _raoulcousins 7y agoTerrifying, but I drove for only two hours before getting my driver's license in California. At the time (and possibly still) you didn't have to have driver's training courses to take the test if you were 18+.
- johannes1234321 7y agoIn Germany you have to take theory lessons and test as well as practical lessons including some time highway (Autobahn) and at night. In the end there is a practical test, which (from anecdotal observation) a notable amount of people fail on first attempt. But once you have the license you can drive on highways without speed limits, where safety and following rules is important (while the free ride is a bit of a myth - many segments have speed limits, there is lots of traffic limiting speed and in case of an accident insurance restrict payment when going fast)
- lovemenot 7y ago
- gt565k 7y ago6000 EURO starting purchase price. Pretty good for a daily commuter in Europe. Especially considering how narrow the streets are in Spain. Sounds like it's ripe for that market. Can't really take this sucker outside the city though, but at that price, I'd certainly consider it for a daily driver.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tromp 7y ago> The Ami is available for purchase from €6,000 (including VAT). That's way cheaper than the €14.995 Estrima Biro [1] that it will be competing with here in the Netherlands. [1] https://biro.nl/en/model/biro-urban/ https://biro.nl/en/model/biro-urban/
- BartBoch 7y agoCheaper and it looks much, much better... The Biro looks really cheap, and at that price, you can get a decent full-sized car!
- himlion 7y agoIs it not similar to the Renault Twizy? That one starts at €7,350 according to wikipedia.
- Faaak 7y agoIt's more or less the same. But the Twizy can go up to 80 km/hour (well, the model needing a licence). I love my twizy, it's the perfect city vehicle
- slg 7y ago>It’s electric, cheap and doesn’t require a license. In short, it’s less of a car and more of an electric scooter with two seats, doors and a heater...The Ami is not classified as a motor vehicle. This just screams safety issues to me. I'm not sure I would want to drive down some city streets in one of these.
- grecy 7y agoYou're absolutely right. There are also plenty of streets I wouldn't want to ride my motorbike down or drive a semi truck. In fact, even the F-150 is virtually impossible to drive on tiny streets. Vehicles all have different uses. This is very cheap, and while it's not ideal for every possible use-case it certainly will be very good at others.
- GaryNumanVevo 7y agoIt's not designed for the US market where SUVs and Truck are the most popular vehicle. It's classified as a quadrocycle which is a lightweight vehicle distinction in France and other EU countries.
- wenc 7y agoI wonder if it will be regulated like a golf cart. Unlike bicycles/scooters, it's still going to take up parking spaces. Without licensing, I wonder if it will introduce a new class of drivers who won't know the rules of the road and introduce more unpredictability into driving.
- close04 7y agoThey already exist, microcars like Aixam are pretty popular with people who don't have a license (in general teenagers over 14/16, or drivers with suspended licenses).
- wenc 7y agoInteresting -- how do drivers/pedestrians perceive them in France?
- wott 7y agoThey are not a subject for pedestrians, they are just cars. As far as other drivers are concerned, the only problem is that over the years they started looking more and more like 'regular' cars, so 'regular' drivers coming behind are surprised because they wrongly estimate their speed (well in fact they don't estimate anything, they have the mental model that cars always drive around 80 km/h, and bicycle around 15 km/h, so they are surprised both ways when a car or bicycle goes around 40 km/h). But drivers must be reminded that normal roads are not a space reserved for cars, motorbikes and lorries cruising all the time near the speed limit, but can be rightfully used by any kind of vehicles (tractors with or without trailers, bicycles, horse-drawn carriages and so on), and that they can be encountered moving at any speed in ]0, speed limit] for a good reason.
- wenc 7y agoThanks for that. To what extent do these drivers know to follow the the more complex rules of the road, say left turns, four way stops, roundabout etiquette etc. without having gone through any licensing? I want to say the same issue applies to cyclists, but then the compliance rate of cyclists is not high. The only consolation is that cyclists loo sufficiently different from cars that drivers give them a wide berth.
- Keyframe 7y agoGreat, but no way in this timeline you will be able to get on a road with this without a license. Even if that’s the case it will change in an instant.
- pyrale 7y agoThis category of vehicles has existed for ages in France. This one won't change the law.
- boudin 7y agoThere's already plenty of cars that can be driven without licence in France. That's not new: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_clas...
- close04 7y agoThey are actually very popular in many countries among drivers who have their license suspended but depend on having a vehicle. There are even rental companies that basically work exclusively with this type of scenario.
- ErneX 7y agoYou can drive this in most EU countries with the simplest permit available (the same as motorcycles of 49cc) in Spain you can get that permit at 15 years of age, but years ago you could get it at 14.
- anigbrowl 7y agoAre you sure about that? https://www.gocartours.com/ https://www.gocartours.com/
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- html5web 7y ago“It can be rented long term at a cost of €19.99 (including VAT) per month with an initial payment of €2,644 (including VAT). The Ami can be rented through a car-sharing service for up to a day at a rate of €0.26 per min...” Looks like it costs €2,644 initial payment + €19.99 a month.
- Ididntdothis 7y agoI like the concept. I don’t really like that a lot of EVs are moving in the direction of bigger , heavier and more power. For cities these super small cars are the future hopefully and not 2 ton tanks.
- dzhiurgis 7y agoDepends on the city/country. Everyone seems to love comfort of SUV's, especially in new world where cities were designed for cars. European cities just can't fit large cars, but move to the country side and you can certainly enjoy utility of larger car (although I'd argue actual 4x4 almost certainly overkill for 95% of roads). I'd certainly love more heavy machinery to move to electric. Buses and trucks are just so loud, benefit most from the torque and are heavily utilised meaning much faster payback than sedan that sits 99% idle.
- jacquesm 7y agoThis more like a two person Sinclair C5 with a roof than an actual car. It won't be allowed to go on the highway and you may have to ride it on bike paths in some countries next to national roads between towns, which is a real nuisance for the people on actual bicycles.
- mongol 7y agoFor sure. I would not want to share bike paths with it. But that is what I fear it will come to if this becomes popular.
- Someone1234 7y agoIn multiple countries, a lot of these vehicles cannot go on 40 MpH speed limited roads. That makes it hugely problematic for getting from A to B, even if you are willing to accept the low maximum speed or will just be on those roads momentarily. I'm not even talking about freeway/motorway driving, but even a lot of towns and cities have modestly fast roads running through them.
- azinman2 7y ago“ The top speed is 45 km/h (28 mph).” Not a problem re: 40mph roads. I’d love to have one for SF.
- ajmurmann 7y agoThat is such an annoying maximum speed. It's just shy of the speed limits of many residential areas. In Germany on towns it's generally 50kmh. On the US many roads have 30 or 35mph. This is just slow enough to be annoying to be behind and fast enough to make it not trivial to overtake. I say this as someone who wants a commuter vehicle similar to this. It's fine for me if it cannot go on the freeway, but it must be able to not hold up traffic everywhere else. Edit: I also prefer the shape of the Toyota iRoad. While that thing can go 37mph I think 50mph or at least 45 is the minimum to not be a nuisance.
- 7y ago
- mongol 7y agoThe problem I think will be how it will fit in the streets. Bicycles that are slower than regular traffic are easy to overtake. But this probably not as easy. At the same time, I would not want to share bicycle lanes with this vehicle if I am cycling.
- boudin 7y agoMost people who have this kind of vehicles drives in cities. It's rare to see those on roads outside and overtaking thise is still easier than a tractor. On highways this category of car is, for obvious reasons, not allowed.
- benhurmarcel 7y agoThese are forbidden on bike lanes (just like mopeds).
- bibinou 7y agoRange is 70 km (45 miles), according to French media.
- zwieback 7y agoCool idea but the orignal Ami 6 looked way cooler. I remember those from my childhood. http://www.citroenorigins.co.uk/en/cars/ami-6 http://www.citroenorigins.co.uk/en/cars/ami-6
- mmoez 7y agoI've never seen an Ami 6 on road. But there were a few Ami 8 cars in my neighborhood when I was a child: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citroen_Ami_8_February_1973_mfd_1972_602cc.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citroen_Ami_8_Februa... .
- FriendlyNormie 7y agoThe link hijacks the back button. The title is horrible clickbait, obviously everyone thinks EV means something on par with a Tesla. Stop upvoting this go-kart ad. This submission should be removed.
- agumonkey 7y agoApplaud for trying. For urban areas this seems like a no brainer. A ton of people use big cars for no reason, struggle to park.. Maybe it will fail but kudos for putting it out there.
- ryuukk_ 7y agoit's impossible to fail, non-electric vehicles are getting banned from major European cities, it's just about time
- eltondegeneres 7y agoThe car doesn't use its left turn signal in the demo video. Good thing the child wasn't been any slower exiting the crosswalk, or the car could have hit them.
- scarejunba 7y agoOh, now I know why American car ads have those warnings that an ad is made under different conditions than normal driving.
- jakecopp 7y agoDoes anyone know if something like this would fly in Australia, road law wise?
- ryuukk_ 7y agoyou don't fly that, you ship it using containers (sea transport) it cost around 1k €, probably cheaper since that car is tiny
- valzam 7y agoIf it is not a car I suppose you will have to wear a helmet inside ;) Not sure if I would want to drive this in Australia though. Coming from Europe the size of your roads here is crazy. Lots of 2-3 lane inner city roads with a speedlimit of 60. You'd be a sitting duck in an Ami..
- frandroid 7y agoIls auraient pu l'appeler la 2CE!
- aeyes 7y agoThese speed limited vehicles which can't go with the flow in a city are a danger because people will be overtaking, cutting in and generally be annoyed by them. This is already a problem with scooters and some motorbikes. Cheap vehicles which are limited to 45 km/h have always existed, they were never popular in Europe. Make it 60 and it will be usable for city driving.
- austinjp 7y agoDepends on the city. Also, the scooters and motorbikes might be part of the solution, and larger vehicles part of the problem.
- intopieces 7y agoIn what city is the flow of traffic more the 28mph? This is something for San Francisco, not for jetting between its suburbs.
- briandear 7y agoHouston. San Antonio. Miami. Los Angeles. Omaha. Colorado Springs. Tucson. Las Vegas. Sacramento. Fresno.
- aeyes 7y agoThis product is for the European market, in pretty much every European city traffic flows at these speeds. Maybe not at rush hour but the day has more hours. In Europe cities are small on average and traffic flows ok. Big cities like London, Paris and Berlin are the exception and even there you'll have problems if your vehicles speed is capped at 45km/h.
- asdff 7y agoSan Francisco.
- pkaye 7y agoI'm curious how it will perform on the hills of San Francisco.
- 7y ago
- cashsterling 7y agoIMO, this is much closer to the direction we should be heading. The typical 4-seat, 1600+ kg, to move around one or two people, at a total of ~200kg, is just stupid. Most of the energy is spent just moving the car... very inefficient. Also, the environmental footprint of manufacturing modern cars is horrible: metals mining and refining, fabrication, waste from manufacturing, the energy to do it all. Making Li-ion batteries is extremely energy intensive; which is one reason they are so expensive.
- amiga_500 7y agoWe should live near stuff we use repeatedly. Schools. Work. Shops. Walk there. This is the only solution with our existing technology.
- CameronNemo 7y agoSomeone tell California.
- asdff 7y agoCA is trying. Most of the new apartments being built are mixed use developments. In LA you can live above your bodega above your subway station in some of these apartments.
- CameronNemo 7y agoMaybe in some small pockets of LA. But the vast majority is hills and hills of single family homes. And many suburban cities and towns are actively resisting state measures to make housing affordable and transit available.
- olivermarks 7y agoCalifornia is huge. France has a long tradition of flimsy lightweight vehicles (Deux Chevaux etc) for local use, this is a logical extension of this cultural norm.
- russellbeattie 7y ago"Polluting vehicles are being banned from our cities... But driving an electric car costs often too much." LOL. Apparently, proper English is not a priority for the French now that Brexit has happened.
- teslaberry 7y agothe problem is not the vehicle. it is the city itself. we need 3 dimensional cities, not 2 dimensional monopoly boards with towers on them. the technology is not entirely there yet, but it is coming. i love musk, but tunneling is NOT the answer, or at least it's not the big obstacle to 3 dimensional cities. the solution involves 1) better materials for a) strength b) noise filtering 2) better ability to move air and filter air 3) better ability to move light and control light 4) bettery everything else ( which is coming ) 5) a change of culture for people who want to participate in a 3 dimensional city at least some of the time. living in it is not for everyone, working in it is also not for everyone . It will however, be primarily services an information based, and NOT manufacturing based in its economic structure.
- PopeDotNinja 7y agoA small, cheap electric car with a 70km range in a dense European city makes a lot of sense to me. The speed limits in much of Europe are really low. In the USA we're used to driving pretty fast on 2 way roads with wide lanes at over 80kph. That's not much of Europe. I've driven over 5,000km here in Scotland just this month. The speed limits in most cities are about 60kph, and usually the max is 45kph. It is completely normal here for people to share a single lane road to drive a car, ride a bike, go for a run, and walk their dogs. It's just different than. America where every street is a temple to the car gods and walking on many streets is both weird and dangerous. When I drove in Denmark in 2017, I would travel around the area outside and of Copenhagen where the speed limits are often 50kph max. For example, from Copenhagen, Denmark to Lyngby while avoiding highways... https://maps.app.goo.gl/8e5DtpUDmSQSp31h7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/8e5DtpUDmSQSp31h7 ...takes about 19 minutes (at 6 a.m. Friday, 28 Feb, 2020) to go 13km. You just can't drive that fast in the built-up urban setting.
- why-oh-why 7y agoI don’t think you can do 80kph in US cities either. Extra-urban EU roads allow 70 or 90 as well unless really curvy or with plenty of entrances, but in cities it’s 50 or less. I always thought that matched the US. The difference I’d say is that 45kph get you much “farther” in EU cities than the average US city.
- leereeves 7y agoIt's not uncommon to drive 70mph (110kph) on highways inside US cities. Regular roads in cities often allow up to 45mph (70kph).
- fortytw2 7y agoI’m pretty sure all roads above 55mph in the US are restricted access (exit/entrance ramp only) interstates - not highways with stoplights and intersections.
- 7y ago
- nprateem 7y agoSo something that looks like a car, that takes up the space of a car, that goes at car speeds and that can be driven on public roads by someone without a licence... expect a quick change to the law after the first few fatalities...
- MrFoof 7y agoThis is no different than most of the existing, "voiture sans permis" available in France, that have been allowed since 1947. Except this actually seems a ton safer than most existing, "voiture sans permis" that I've actually seen throughout France. And yes, existing "voiture sans permis" are not known to be anywhere near as safe as a full size car (or high-end quadricycles like the Aixam). Yet like them, this is dirt in terms of cost, and far better than most of the existing options that have been around for over 70 years.
- jobigoud 7y agoA.k.a "pots d'yaourt".
- Pfhreak 7y agoI remember when the laws changed after they introduced electric bikes. /s I don't think there will be the change you are thinking they're will be. Especially because I don't think there will be a ton of these sold, and the ones that do sell probably sell to people with licenses anyhow.
- Faaak 7y agoI'm very happy to see this type of vehicles emerge. I own a twizy (that can go up to 80km/h, and 100km/hour with a software modification, thus needing a licence), and it's the perfect urban vehicle. I live a bit outside the city (15km from the city centre) and it's perfect: you can park anywhere, you go the same speed than others and I even got a (silghtly legal) tow bar for a small trailer. If I recall correctly, the twizy is no longer produced because it's true that it had some flaws: two seats one behind the other and no real windows (you need gloves and a scarf in winter). So seeing this citroen car is a delight to me. I hope they make a 80km/hour version too.
- mariushn 7y agoThis is amazing. Finally, a well-priced non-polluting urban mobility solution. I can't believe on HN this has only 160 upvotes in 10 hrs. HN audience seems climate-conscious. But if it's not a Tesla solution, you don't care. Sigh.
- ant6n 7y ago> Finally, a well-priced non-polluting urban mobility solution. Bicycles have been around for a hundred years. But if its not an electric car you don’t care. Sigh.
- mariushn 7y agoBicycles don't protect you from bad weather. I have a bike.
- dasKrokodil 7y agoSome do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile
- netsharc 7y agoDownvoted for complaining about low vote count...
- aganame 7y agoThat revolting site breaks the back button.
- solarkraft 7y agohttps://outline.com/k6padz https://outline.com/k6padz I can't understand why anyone still shares TechCrunch links. It's inaccessible without accepting their cookies.
- 8fingerlouie 7y agoThe list of advertising partners on Techcrunch is virtually endless, and the "founding partners" cannot be disabled directly, which (after 2-3 clicks) is revealed to consist of Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, DataXtrade and more... that link is gonna remain blue.
- Jemm 7y agoPlease, please bring this to Canada. Nah, will never happen. People here are buying bigger and bigger cars. Is much so that even mini vans are being discontinued.
- jbverschoor 7y agoSo it’s a biro?
- jbverschoor 7y agoStill useless if you pay €7,50 per hour for parking
- skelet 7y agoBetter link in French https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-plus.html https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-plus.html
- amai 7y agoTop speed 45 km/h. That is too low for most cities.
- oliwarner 7y agoThis is going to be furiously popular around the EU. We have old, dense cities, very limited parking, restrictions on emissions, expensive fuel. This fixes all of those, for cheap. 45mph limit isn't an issue when your limits are 20-40mph. I don't live in a city. I live in a relatively rural county in the UK but I work from home and most of my journeys are <5 miles. Shops and school runs. This makes sense for me, and will for a lot of people doing similar journeys.
- noir_lord 7y agoAs a motorcyclist this fills me with dread. There are enough bad drivers here despite our quite tough licenses - a metal box at 28mph with a battery on board will still ruin my entire day.
- sunstone 7y agoAs the world moves to "super e-bikes" (40kph, 200km range) a lot about urban transportation will be transformed. We haven't hit the inflection point yet, maybe ten years from now. Currently the market is moving so fast though, you can see the writing on the wall.
- harambae 7y agoI think many people still worry about safety issues with bicycling, especially at higher e-boosted speeds. Technological advancements would have to include things like airbag helmets.