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A radio frequency exposure test finds an iPhone 11 Pro exceeds the FCC's limit

346 points by acdanger 7y ago

zitterbewegung 7y ago
This an advertisement for their RF phone cases. In the article the premise is refuted.
- jolmg 7y ago
  > This an advertisement for their RF phone cases This is on ieee.org. The article mentioned this[1] other test by the Chicago Tribune. This isn't purely an advertisement though it serves that purpose a bit. It's disputed because they only tested 2 iPhones. > There are reasons to take the results with a grain of salt, however. McCaughey clarified that Penumbra supplied RF Exposure Labs with one iPhone 7 and one iPhone 11 Pro for the tests—phones the company had purchased off the shelf. He attributed not testing more phones to the cost of purchasing multiple iPhones This is also important: > More notably, when the FCC conducted a follow-up investigation after the Tribune published its story, the agency did not find evidence that any of the phones exceeded SAR limits. That said, while the Tribune and Penumbra both used off-the-shelf phones, the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. It raises the question whether Apple and others supplied the FCC with phones that are different from what they sell. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-...
  - zitterbewegung 7y ago
    This story isn’t strictly a submarine story but pg has stated a PR agency is a great marketing investment . I also saw at least a dozen articles that were similar using DuckDuckGo. http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
  - swiley 7y ago
    A lot of these smartphones go through imperical tests in an anechoic chamber managed by a third party lab to see if they’re bellow the allowed levels in each band. That sounds hackish but (IMO) isn’t the end of the world. What weirds me out is that they’ll send them to these third party labs and repeatedly test some small number (possibly one) of devices until it’s right up against what’s allowed. That feels less than scientific and probably wrong although I’m not sure what I’d change.
    - xondono 7y ago
      The main problem with all this kind of testing is how little precision there is. “Double the energy limit” sounds a lot, but for a lot of these labs that’s inside of the error range of their equipment.
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
      I’m sure Apple has their own test chambers.
    - deftnerd 7y ago
      The "conspiracy" portion of my brain makes me wonder if it's possible that Apple phones have lower power levels if the location services determines that the phone is in a location with a known anechoic chamber. There can't be that many of them. Such behavior has already been shown by automobile manufacturers during the "diesel-gate" incidents.
      - swiley 7y ago
        You don’t have to do that, usually you’ll run special test firmware on the device and say that this behaves appropriately (I’ve done this for other companies) Remember that this is fundamentally a legal/social thing that involves engineering/science and not the other way around.
        jjoonathan 7y ago
        Right, you're supposed to test to the worst case and you get to define "worst case." Cheating would be as simple as defining a favorable "worst case." Before the tin-foil crowd calls regulators stupid, I'd like to point out that in the absence of cheating this allows hardware engineers to do a better job & design a system that is robust to software shenanigans. That's a nice thing. Maybe we cannot have nice things, but if so, let's prove it rather than presuppose it. I'd estimate the likelihood of cheating by looking to see if people are choosing phones on the basis of EIRP the way they choose cars based on MPG. I don't see that happening, so I estimate that the likelihood of cheating is low, and would vote to keep the cooperative model around.
  - oefrha 7y ago
    > the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. That weasel word “largely” isn’t helpful. They either only tested supplied phones, which may raise suspicions; or they also tested phones sourced from other channels, however insignificantly, suggesting problems with the third-party tests, or they would have noticed the anomaly. “Largely” ostensibly points to the latter, but it could also mean “we don’t know”.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  The premise isn't refuted at all. The IEEE calls out things to be aware of, on both sides of the coin, and says as with all things, take limited sample tests with a grain of salt.
- apodysophilia 7y ago
  The relevant quote: > Penumbra was conducting the test, which also included testing an iPhone 7, to study its Alara phone cases, which the company says are designed to reduce RF exposure in a person
jws 7y ago
Testing phones from 5 millimeters away from the body may seem close, but for anyone carrying their phone in a pocket, the distance is closer to 2 millimeters. Because wireless power falls off exponentially with distance, what might be a safe amount of RF exposure at 5 millimeters could be much higher at 2 millimeters. They mean to say that you should expect a power about 6 times higher, (5^2 / 2^2). This is rubbish. The square of the distance model is for a pair of points. Phones in pockets at such closed distances are more closely modeled by a pair of infinite planes where the power falls off not at all. The real result will be in between, but very much closer to 1 than 6.
- krastanov 7y ago
  So it is doubly incorrect... They are completely misusing the word exponential to mean quadratic which is already incredibly annoying, but it is not even quadratic, it is constant.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Not squared, inverse square. That's faster than exponential.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      You may need to check your math. Inverse square does not fall off faster than exponential.
      - whatshisface 7y ago
        1/x² has a singularity and rises faster than exponential as you approach it. We're talking about getting closer to the source, not further.
        7y ago
landont 7y ago
> The SAR limit is primarily concerned with a phone’s thermal effects—essentially, the power is limited to 1.6 W/kg to ensure that no one is burned by using their phone. I should be worried about the heat generated from my phone? I thought maybe there was some issue with RF and my cells, but this seems like a complete nonissue to me. Am I being foolish for writing this off? The only time my phone is going to burn me is if the battery explodes, which doesn't seem to be a pervasive issue. So probably not. As someone else pointed out this is a marketing ploy.
- testvox 7y ago
  Some people do believe that non ionizing radiation has effects other than those produced by the added thermal energy (or that the thermal effects are in some way significant). The actual scientific evidence for this is minimal though.
  - manicdee 7y ago
    In scientific endeavours we only ever find what we were looking for. If we weren’t looking for non-thermal effects in cells we won’t see them, especially if our model of a cellular mass is a lump of ballistics gel, or a computer model of a skin surface in terms of resistive and capacitative networks. The reason the scientific evidence is minimal is that we have been using simplistic models of human bodies for RF testing.
  - jcims 7y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4676010/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4676010/ Essentially EM fields alternating in the low to medium frequency bands (~100khz-1mhz) can disrupt cell processes by physically jiggling the polar molecules that make up portions of miotic spindles/microtubules. Among presumably other things this effect is being investigated as a cancer fighting mechanism called 'tumor treating fields'. The carrier frequency of mobile phones is obviously far beyond the range in question, but there could be signal modulation components that alternate RF power levels in this frequency range.
    - 7y ago
pentae 7y ago
I suspect this has something to do with the inferior intel modem that was used during the Qualcomm debacle. One of the main advantages of the next iPhone will be returning to a Qualcomm modem that isn't rubbish.
- swiley 7y ago
  While I’m not a fan of what apple did it’s a bit disturbing that there’s literally just one company making cellular modems for US devices and that this company is really very hostile to users and device manufacturers.
  - phonon 7y ago
    https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/302712-mediatek-announces-dimensity-1000-arm-chip-with-integrated-5g-modem https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/302712-mediatek-announce...
  - ksec 7y ago
    They made the best modem for a price where many cant refuse. Or you could choose other modem from Mediatek, while it is stable enough, they often come very late in the cycle.
  - apodysophilia 7y ago
    This is the result of patents.
mfer 7y ago
> That said, while the Tribune and Penumbra both used off-the-shelf phones, the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. This speaks to a method that can be used to game the system. What prevents manufacturers from providing phones that are somehow different from the off the shelf versions? I'm not suggesting that's happening here. Just that the testing process is easily hacked.
- 1123581321 7y ago
  The manufacturer needs the phone certified in advance of shelf stocking. There is nothing stopping the FCC from confirming their test results with retail units. Plus, the risk from cheating is enormous. It’s a lot easier in the long run to just design properly working phones.
  - preinheimer 7y ago
    It didn't turn out to be easier to design a clean burning diesel.
    - toast0 7y ago
      VW (and others, historically) didn't make special vehicles to pass the test; all of their vehicles would be expected to pass the test as administered on a dynamometer and fail the test if administered on a road. Designing to the test is different than carefully selecting (or altering) a sample that passes the test.
  - ngcc_hk 7y ago
    There is a German example.
    - hurricanetc 7y ago
      Not quite the same. VW wasn’t making special vehicles just for testing. It was software on every vehicle designed to trick a dyno. I guess it could be theoretically possible for Apple to software cheat the FCC but it really does seem easier to just make a phone that meets the specifications.
zwieback 7y ago
Are they talking about the radiation from the Wi-Fi or cell radios? I would think that modern phones have very low duty cycles on those radios. The other radiation, e.g. from the clocking of the circuits should be extremely low, otherwise our batteries wouldn't last so long.
- Jolter 7y ago
  Cell radios. The wifi is much lower wattage than cellular so its effects will be marginal.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
beeschlenker 7y ago
Part II: Impeachment Is A Diversion And Delay - Blocking of the "impeachment" witnesses was collusion planned before the new year. Listen to an FBI agent's disclosure from Jan 1, 2O2O here. President was to resign late summer securing election for DNC. See latest updates. ||Here is the zip file, which was also made available in the 3Jan2O2O update. The file within is VID_20200101_201948.mp3. Turn up the volume and put on headphones. BB10Mp3Footage31Dec1Jan.zip 122.4mb https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpIUazmi/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpI... The dialogue about the impeachment starts near the beginning. Having Biden in the White House is as good as Trump or anyone else in their organization. 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President Donald Trump: Demands a $4 billion dollar bribe here at 10:18am 4thJan2019: 3JanCh3_900-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... 3JanCh2_900-1100-avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24fY0vBB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24f... 3JanCh4_1000-1100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJojHge/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJ... 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Speaker Nancy Pelosi also "preps" boys with First Lady Melania Trump, defined as in she performs oral sex on the boys’ penis and anus, as a child rapist like Henry Porter would, while trying to remove fecal matter from the boy prior to handing them over to be raped and then subsequently murdered, for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who apparently decides he would rather just have ten billion dollars instead. US Attorney for Western New York James Kennedy rapes these boys instead: 12JanCh3_1533-1638.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25kW2Oz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25... Attorney General William Barr with FBI Deputy Director Christopher Wray raped and killed boys for billions in bribes in Buffalo, NY on the 17Jan2019 at 7:50am: 18JanCh4_700mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0N0Bp7/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0... 18JanCh2_700.mp3 gorepqkberqaoper,bqpo,rfbv. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_odB2Um/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_o... 18JanCh3_725-.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKIifGGm/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKI... Secretary of State Michael Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan each raped and killed boys on 5thJan'19 at 17:39 for billions in bribes: pxoimnerher;l,yt ,.tyey jnytr ntr/. 5JanCh3_1600 1800.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ghgmNrQvJ8WfJ2TsDVx1ruDU36hrhx6S/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ghgmNrQvJ8WfJ2TsDVx1ruDU36h... 5JanCh2_1721-1818.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02Mjwrg/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02... Leaders of the "impeachment" effort Jerrold Nadler, Robert Mueller, and Adam Schiff all rape and kill boys between 11:20pm and 1:10am: 14JanCh4_2300-0000.mp3 Nadler starts at about 20mins in- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU66GuU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU... 14JanCh2_2304-2359.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9WLr1x1/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9W... Mueller at 12:25am, next is Schiff who starts 12:55-ish: 15JanCh2_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62tgCkj/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62... 15JanCh2_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_rGSFH/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_... 15JanCh4_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2OQnwZ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2... 15JanCh4_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw746LeCL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw74... Complete Media Protection: Lester Holt, of NBC NightlyNews, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo, New York on 14Jan2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. Muir starts around 5.15am, then Holt about 5:38 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp and also Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500-601.avi zijnoijrpotmebr https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530-600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... Adding to the media protection and reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700-800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... 161p PDF [last updated: Feb|4|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... \\. Please repost in USA! Post gets censored in US Recently more relevant: From page 49, Senator Mitch McConnell: At 1632 Senator Mitch McConnell checks into the Porter camera system inquiring if he can be part of the "eviction" for $10 million dollars. He is informed by group members that there are enough people for the event already and his participation is not necessary. At 1634 McConnell states "I fucked 15 kids, how am I not getting paid by you?" He is dismissed by Donald Reeves with "I think that will be all Mr. McConnell." 13JanCh3_1600-1700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAHtsX8-/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAH...
chillingeffect 7y ago
my father occupationally used to measure RF output from mountaintop cell repeaters. he was always pushing back on operators for pushing just a little outside the limits so they could pick up more calls.
- nomel 7y ago
  I always assumed the phone to tower path would be the limit, not the tower to phone.
  - moftz 7y ago
    Right, in most cases, whatever side of a comms link that is hooked up to mains power isn't going that much about power usage. But there are limits on broadcasting power from the towers so as not to cause problems with farther away towers that want operate on the same frequencies. It's like how you usually want to not be on the same Wifi channel as your neighbor. It's going to take either more RF power to overcome their signal or take more time getting data through due to a less than perfect signal quality. Cell towers occupy a certain geographic cell so you want some overlap in signal between neighbors but you don't want it to extend much further than what it takes to leave enough time for someone in a car, for example, to have their conversation handed off to the neighboring tower. Cell tower operators might want to boost their signal power if they are bordering an area with low coverage but it's going to begin to interfere with cells outside their intended range. The FCC sets these limits for different applications and frequencies. An FM radio tower is going to have a massive output power as compared to a personal FM transmitter for your car and for good reason, no else one wants to hear your shitty music.
dieselerator 7y ago
In my case the phone has never been in my pocket while in use. The phone may occasionally ping the cell tower. Otherwise it is just listening in standby mode, in plain words, not transmitting. The premise of the article is weak. In my opinion the article was not suitably vetted by Spectrum.
- kube-system 7y ago
  Plenty of people use hand-free devices with their phones in their pockets. Many others hold the phone against their head when talking on it. Additionally, there are many network-intensive applications which can be used while the phone is in your pocket, i.e. mobile hotspot. Probably the least common scenario is for a phone to be transmitting at full power when it's not in close contact with a human.
rini17 7y ago
To everyone who keeps repeating "it's non-ionizing radiation, so any other effect than thermal is impossible": 1. saying something is impossible is not a scientific statement 2. RF is capable of specifically affecting enzyme reactions, random example: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/nr/c4nr00407h#!divAbstract https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/nr/c4nr0...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- willis936 7y ago
  This ignores the primary issue of needing empirical evidence before claiming discovery. If non-ionizing radiation of a certain level is hazardous then it is provable. Affecting enzyme reactions is an observed effect, but what is the health risk?
  - rini17 7y ago
    We don't know yet, so.. better safe than sorry, no?
    - sneak 7y ago
      Imagine if we said this about the food that comes out of every new restaurant. Risk management is more than just universal risk aversion.
      - rini17 7y ago
        Yes, at least in my country, every restaurant is subject to stringent hygiene regulations and audits. Is it a problem for you?
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - 7y ago
remote_phone 7y ago
If the phone has a strong wifi signal but a very poor cell signal, will it emit a lot of RF still?
- Jolter 7y ago
  Yes, the wattage required to reach the cell tower is unaffected by wifi coverage.
  - sudosysgen 7y ago
    If there is WiFi, the radios will be much much less active or even switch away from LTE/5G.
8bitsrule 7y ago
I was confused by the "3.8W/kg" number. This Chi Trib article helped: it details "the federal safety limit, which is 1.6 watts per kilogram averaged over one gram of tissue." and explains how a former Qualcomm engineer did the testing. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html#nt=interstitial-manual https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-...
GnarfGnarf 7y ago
EMR meters measure Volts/meter (V/m), milliwatts per square meter (mW/m²), and milliGauss (mG). How do you convert to watts/kilogram? Maybe measure the surface of my cross-section, multiply by mW/m², divide by my weight? I have a Cornet ED88T, a GQ-390, and a Tenmars on order.
_bxg1 7y ago
If the only possible negative effect is "burns", then it's easy to verify that people all over the world aren't getting burned by their phones, no? Testing and standards are still important, but it doesn't sound like there's some nefarious hidden effect we may just not know about.
ta999999171 7y ago
You also can't prove politicians fuck kids, buuuuut....
foxx-boxx 7y ago
It smells like a “you’ve caused by brain cancer” lawsuit.
sschueller 7y ago
I have posted this in the previous post that came up about this but I am quite concerned that the idustry may be currently self certifing its devices and getting phones past FCC regulations that do not meet the requirements just like Boeing and the FAA. We need proper funding for the FCC so they can do that job and not some industry paid company with a conflict of intrest.

346 points by acdanger 7y ago

zitterbewegung 7y ago

This an advertisement for their RF phone cases. In the article the premise is refuted.

jolmg 7y ago
> This an advertisement for their RF phone cases This is on ieee.org. The article mentioned this[1] other test by the Chicago Tribune. This isn't purely an advertisement though it serves that purpose a bit. It's disputed because they only tested 2 iPhones. > There are reasons to take the results with a grain of salt, however. McCaughey clarified that Penumbra supplied RF Exposure Labs with one iPhone 7 and one iPhone 11 Pro for the tests—phones the company had purchased off the shelf. He attributed not testing more phones to the cost of purchasing multiple iPhones This is also important: > More notably, when the FCC conducted a follow-up investigation after the Tribune published its story, the agency did not find evidence that any of the phones exceeded SAR limits. That said, while the Tribune and Penumbra both used off-the-shelf phones, the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. It raises the question whether Apple and others supplied the FCC with phones that are different from what they sell. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-...
- zitterbewegung 7y ago
  This story isn’t strictly a submarine story but pg has stated a PR agency is a great marketing investment . I also saw at least a dozen articles that were similar using DuckDuckGo. http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- swiley 7y ago
  A lot of these smartphones go through imperical tests in an anechoic chamber managed by a third party lab to see if they’re bellow the allowed levels in each band. That sounds hackish but (IMO) isn’t the end of the world. What weirds me out is that they’ll send them to these third party labs and repeatedly test some small number (possibly one) of devices until it’s right up against what’s allowed. That feels less than scientific and probably wrong although I’m not sure what I’d change.
  - xondono 7y ago
    The main problem with all this kind of testing is how little precision there is. “Double the energy limit” sounds a lot, but for a lot of these labs that’s inside of the error range of their equipment.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    I’m sure Apple has their own test chambers.
  - deftnerd 7y ago
    The "conspiracy" portion of my brain makes me wonder if it's possible that Apple phones have lower power levels if the location services determines that the phone is in a location with a known anechoic chamber. There can't be that many of them. Such behavior has already been shown by automobile manufacturers during the "diesel-gate" incidents.
    - swiley 7y ago
      You don’t have to do that, usually you’ll run special test firmware on the device and say that this behaves appropriately (I’ve done this for other companies) Remember that this is fundamentally a legal/social thing that involves engineering/science and not the other way around.
      - jjoonathan 7y ago
        Right, you're supposed to test to the worst case and you get to define "worst case." Cheating would be as simple as defining a favorable "worst case." Before the tin-foil crowd calls regulators stupid, I'd like to point out that in the absence of cheating this allows hardware engineers to do a better job & design a system that is robust to software shenanigans. That's a nice thing. Maybe we cannot have nice things, but if so, let's prove it rather than presuppose it. I'd estimate the likelihood of cheating by looking to see if people are choosing phones on the basis of EIRP the way they choose cars based on MPG. I don't see that happening, so I estimate that the likelihood of cheating is low, and would vote to keep the cooperative model around.
- oefrha 7y ago
  > the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. That weasel word “largely” isn’t helpful. They either only tested supplied phones, which may raise suspicions; or they also tested phones sourced from other channels, however insignificantly, suggesting problems with the third-party tests, or they would have noticed the anomaly. “Largely” ostensibly points to the latter, but it could also mean “we don’t know”.
FireBeyond 7y ago
The premise isn't refuted at all. The IEEE calls out things to be aware of, on both sides of the coin, and says as with all things, take limited sample tests with a grain of salt.
apodysophilia 7y ago
The relevant quote: > Penumbra was conducting the test, which also included testing an iPhone 7, to study its Alara phone cases, which the company says are designed to reduce RF exposure in a person

jws 7y ago

Testing phones from 5 millimeters away from the body may seem close, but for anyone carrying their phone in a pocket, the distance is closer to 2 millimeters. Because wireless power falls off exponentially with distance, what might be a safe amount of RF exposure at 5 millimeters could be much higher at 2 millimeters. They mean to say that you should expect a power about 6 times higher, (5^2 / 2^2). This is rubbish. The square of the distance model is for a pair of points. Phones in pockets at such closed distances are more closely modeled by a pair of infinite planes where the power falls off not at all. The real result will be in between, but very much closer to 1 than 6.

krastanov 7y ago
So it is doubly incorrect... They are completely misusing the word exponential to mean quadratic which is already incredibly annoying, but it is not even quadratic, it is constant.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 7y ago
  Not squared, inverse square. That's faster than exponential.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    You may need to check your math. Inverse square does not fall off faster than exponential.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      1/x² has a singularity and rises faster than exponential as you approach it. We're talking about getting closer to the source, not further.
      - 7y ago

landont 7y ago

> The SAR limit is primarily concerned with a phone’s thermal effects—essentially, the power is limited to 1.6 W/kg to ensure that no one is burned by using their phone. I should be worried about the heat generated from my phone? I thought maybe there was some issue with RF and my cells, but this seems like a complete nonissue to me. Am I being foolish for writing this off? The only time my phone is going to burn me is if the battery explodes, which doesn't seem to be a pervasive issue. So probably not. As someone else pointed out this is a marketing ploy.

testvox 7y ago
Some people do believe that non ionizing radiation has effects other than those produced by the added thermal energy (or that the thermal effects are in some way significant). The actual scientific evidence for this is minimal though.
- manicdee 7y ago
  In scientific endeavours we only ever find what we were looking for. If we weren’t looking for non-thermal effects in cells we won’t see them, especially if our model of a cellular mass is a lump of ballistics gel, or a computer model of a skin surface in terms of resistive and capacitative networks. The reason the scientific evidence is minimal is that we have been using simplistic models of human bodies for RF testing.
- jcims 7y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4676010/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4676010/ Essentially EM fields alternating in the low to medium frequency bands (~100khz-1mhz) can disrupt cell processes by physically jiggling the polar molecules that make up portions of miotic spindles/microtubules. Among presumably other things this effect is being investigated as a cancer fighting mechanism called 'tumor treating fields'. The carrier frequency of mobile phones is obviously far beyond the range in question, but there could be signal modulation components that alternate RF power levels in this frequency range.
  - 7y ago

pentae 7y ago

I suspect this has something to do with the inferior intel modem that was used during the Qualcomm debacle. One of the main advantages of the next iPhone will be returning to a Qualcomm modem that isn't rubbish.

swiley 7y ago
While I’m not a fan of what apple did it’s a bit disturbing that there’s literally just one company making cellular modems for US devices and that this company is really very hostile to users and device manufacturers.
- phonon 7y ago
  https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/302712-mediatek-announces-dimensity-1000-arm-chip-with-integrated-5g-modem https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/302712-mediatek-announce...
- ksec 7y ago
  They made the best modem for a price where many cant refuse. Or you could choose other modem from Mediatek, while it is stable enough, they often come very late in the cycle.
- apodysophilia 7y ago
  This is the result of patents.

mfer 7y ago

> That said, while the Tribune and Penumbra both used off-the-shelf phones, the FCC largely tested phones supplied by the manufacturers, including Apple. This speaks to a method that can be used to game the system. What prevents manufacturers from providing phones that are somehow different from the off the shelf versions? I'm not suggesting that's happening here. Just that the testing process is easily hacked.

1123581321 7y ago
The manufacturer needs the phone certified in advance of shelf stocking. There is nothing stopping the FCC from confirming their test results with retail units. Plus, the risk from cheating is enormous. It’s a lot easier in the long run to just design properly working phones.
- preinheimer 7y ago
  It didn't turn out to be easier to design a clean burning diesel.
  - toast0 7y ago
    VW (and others, historically) didn't make special vehicles to pass the test; all of their vehicles would be expected to pass the test as administered on a dynamometer and fail the test if administered on a road. Designing to the test is different than carefully selecting (or altering) a sample that passes the test.
- ngcc_hk 7y ago
  There is a German example.
  - hurricanetc 7y ago
    Not quite the same. VW wasn’t making special vehicles just for testing. It was software on every vehicle designed to trick a dyno. I guess it could be theoretically possible for Apple to software cheat the FCC but it really does seem easier to just make a phone that meets the specifications.

zwieback 7y ago

Are they talking about the radiation from the Wi-Fi or cell radios? I would think that modern phones have very low duty cycles on those radios. The other radiation, e.g. from the clocking of the circuits should be extremely low, otherwise our batteries wouldn't last so long.

Jolter 7y ago
Cell radios. The wifi is much lower wattage than cellular so its effects will be marginal.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

beeschlenker 7y ago

Part II: Impeachment Is A Diversion And Delay - Blocking of the "impeachment" witnesses was collusion planned before the new year. Listen to an FBI agent's disclosure from Jan 1, 2O2O here. President was to resign late summer securing election for DNC. See latest updates. ||Here is the zip file, which was also made available in the 3Jan2O2O update. The file within is VID_20200101_201948.mp3. Turn up the volume and put on headphones. BB10Mp3Footage31Dec1Jan.zip 122.4mb https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpIUazmi/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXOOhQhHybwky8Z5pGdr9ZXhWpI... The dialogue about the impeachment starts near the beginning. Having Biden in the White House is as good as Trump or anyone else in their organization. Obviously Schiff and Nadler pledged their allegiance to the organization by raping boys on the record, with their task being to drag out an impeachment designed to obstruct and delay any real efforts to remove the President, thus keeping Trump in power. The witness blocking was to cause an apparent uproar delaying things with legal actions until late Summer. Soon after, the President would resign, leaving any other candidate with not enough time or support to compete with an opportunistic Biden, who is as good as Trump or any other Illuminati friendly politician in the Presidency. 162 page PDF [last updated: February|4|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... Previously reported: \Wag The Dog: first was feigned impeachment hearings meant to obstruct, now an attack on Iranians in Iraq. Here is what they are trying to distract from & cover up to retain power. $100+ billion in bribes to the highest offices in this country. 815+ deaths from child rapes to prove loyalty! See the latest PDF updates: FBI Director Wray, AG Barr, SoD Shanahan, & SoS Pompeo each raped boys and were paid billions in bribes for a Soros & Koch funded child rape org. So did Trump & his "impeachment" team Nadler,Schiff,Mueller.So did media moguls Redstone,Murdoch,Moonves. What are they trying to set up? Who can arrest them since they are all bribed and in on it ? Their strategy to stay in every office and obstruct until forced to leave no matter what. Feigning impeachment: see page 13O. erppmpoerwvfewq. ver verwbvoltwb. \\if;Download the video/audio file, put on headphones and turn up the volume. You will hear these people committing these crimes. Audio was broadcast into my apartment by outdated surveillance equipment illegally embedded within my walls. This very same technology was being used to broadcast me to the internet for five years without my consent. I own this footage. Please use this to prosecute all found within. Note:: I am obliviously speaking throughout the video, and it can be quite loud at times relative to the desired content. The are dozens more links, including these, that can be found in this PDF last updated 4 FEB 2O2O: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... All members of the "Illuminati"; "....an underground organization of homosexuals and child rapists..." (from pg 26: Barack Obama with Jack Dorsey). President Donald Trump: Demands a $4 billion dollar bribe here at 10:18am 4thJan2019: 3JanCh3_900-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77YG0Vr/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Grdr8xF2psKNsuYlEnl9dIRV-77... 3JanCh2_900-1100-avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24fY0vBB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LUmVygl_q0XVs8h2cWr8jZl-24f... 3JanCh4_1000-1100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJojHge/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpP1pJbJakBgg-y-MWNozTxp3wJ... President Trump rapes and kills twelve boys, including five boys in a "who can rape five boys to death the fastest" game: 14JanCh3_600.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj258zB/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ufPmglde9Mep0m6xYMJ9c4TWTjj... 14JanCh2_600-700.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_Lw_gCF/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/136qLJdEn8eCs9tI4QtIxl4opW_L... Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi: Accepting a $3 billion dollar bribe at 1033 am on the 17 Jan 2019 to ensure Asian boys can get through the border at "Monterrey" undocumented to be raped: 17JanCh3_949-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1CZUvmE/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eodHu4o5Cm3xEWhDqipSuTj-M1C... 17JanCh4_1017-1100.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZNjDmnk/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-nWEQbempkVZSz230j9wTyduZN... Speaker Nancy Pelosi also "preps" boys with First Lady Melania Trump, defined as in she performs oral sex on the boys’ penis and anus, as a child rapist like Henry Porter would, while trying to remove fecal matter from the boy prior to handing them over to be raped and then subsequently murdered, for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who apparently decides he would rather just have ten billion dollars instead. US Attorney for Western New York James Kennedy rapes these boys instead: 12JanCh3_1533-1638.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25kW2Oz/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AgFkDsbPbI4b5Xd3Wbz2EVNNx25... Attorney General William Barr with FBI Deputy Director Christopher Wray raped and killed boys for billions in bribes in Buffalo, NY on the 17Jan2019 at 7:50am: 18JanCh4_700mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0N0Bp7/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UIdZkS5ZVksZdHYsnHk2t5losi0... 18JanCh2_700.mp3 gorepqkberqaoper,bqpo,rfbv. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_odB2Um/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DFK8IAxm5pQVqZv9L518nfgP7_o... 18JanCh3_725-.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKIifGGm/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DG5ej59Ic8RT9UhbyMdwT0BDcKI... Secretary of State Michael Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan each raped and killed boys on 5thJan'19 at 17:39 for billions in bribes: pxoimnerher;l,yt ,.tyey jnytr ntr/. 5JanCh3_1600 1800.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ghgmNrQvJ8WfJ2TsDVx1ruDU36hrhx6S/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ghgmNrQvJ8WfJ2TsDVx1ruDU36h... 5JanCh2_1721-1818.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02Mjwrg/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eSlD4otX4KZqWXboQM92Mu-6J02... Leaders of the "impeachment" effort Jerrold Nadler, Robert Mueller, and Adam Schiff all rape and kill boys between 11:20pm and 1:10am: 14JanCh4_2300-0000.mp3 Nadler starts at about 20mins in- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU66GuU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kuvv2Zmbw5Jw7onbRI2hCZ0M8FU... 14JanCh2_2304-2359.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9WLr1x1/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nofp5xF-aXXcCSgQVwj30KlzE9W... Mueller at 12:25am, next is Schiff who starts 12:55-ish: 15JanCh2_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62tgCkj/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EsmHfguwBuo2PbavJ1WYyhiML62... 15JanCh2_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_rGSFH/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZnWRnBryalNQu2yJmfJUdS2pA_... 15JanCh4_000-100.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2OQnwZ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZEDJR6jb6ARpcNnWJTokBUKb2J2... 15JanCh4_100-200.mp3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw746LeCL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/173aYWvWHH4VGht1h_2nM0IMdw74... Complete Media Protection: Lester Holt, of NBC NightlyNews, apparently a member of the Illuminati since the 1980's, along with ABC Nightly News lead anchor David Muir, stop over to the Porter studio in Buffalo, New York on 14Jan2019 at 5:00 am. They both rape and kill about two dozen boys by 6:00 am. Muir starts around 5.15am, then Holt about 5:38 am. Multi-billionaire Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp and also Fox Corporation, takes his turn after Holt. Video links below: 14JanCh3_500-601.avi zijnoijrpotmebr https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX3o7UL/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i7NKepeyG_FfdQRrM7KsnFOZOOX... 14JanCh2_530-600.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1RwidV/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NZzgN5ilI7ToroU5cfqMaL4o2u1... Adding to the media protection and reason this is not picked up by the media, CBS and Viacom owner Sumner Redstone and Leslie Moonves rape and kill boys following the President. 14JanCh3_700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXaB4aI0/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XDw6x3ldnnQiq7oIjpdYVENyXa... 14JanCh2_700-800.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWYKfRDp/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NS_e6AzEZ05wnfljkGMETGU5CWY... 161p PDF [last updated: Feb|4|2O2O]: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W2qxVc/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1S7T_kDv48E40eHzus6CTXHxcm0W... \\. Please repost in USA! Post gets censored in US Recently more relevant: From page 49, Senator Mitch McConnell: At 1632 Senator Mitch McConnell checks into the Porter camera system inquiring if he can be part of the "eviction" for $10 million dollars. He is informed by group members that there are enough people for the event already and his participation is not necessary. At 1634 McConnell states "I fucked 15 kids, how am I not getting paid by you?" He is dismissed by Donald Reeves with "I think that will be all Mr. McConnell." 13JanCh3_1600-1700.avi https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAHtsX8-/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7bqOpvaEWmLiJpMhJNQDrfsQAH...

chillingeffect 7y ago

my father occupationally used to measure RF output from mountaintop cell repeaters. he was always pushing back on operators for pushing just a little outside the limits so they could pick up more calls.

nomel 7y ago
I always assumed the phone to tower path would be the limit, not the tower to phone.
- moftz 7y ago
  Right, in most cases, whatever side of a comms link that is hooked up to mains power isn't going that much about power usage. But there are limits on broadcasting power from the towers so as not to cause problems with farther away towers that want operate on the same frequencies. It's like how you usually want to not be on the same Wifi channel as your neighbor. It's going to take either more RF power to overcome their signal or take more time getting data through due to a less than perfect signal quality. Cell towers occupy a certain geographic cell so you want some overlap in signal between neighbors but you don't want it to extend much further than what it takes to leave enough time for someone in a car, for example, to have their conversation handed off to the neighboring tower. Cell tower operators might want to boost their signal power if they are bordering an area with low coverage but it's going to begin to interfere with cells outside their intended range. The FCC sets these limits for different applications and frequencies. An FM radio tower is going to have a massive output power as compared to a personal FM transmitter for your car and for good reason, no else one wants to hear your shitty music.

dieselerator 7y ago

In my case the phone has never been in my pocket while in use. The phone may occasionally ping the cell tower. Otherwise it is just listening in standby mode, in plain words, not transmitting. The premise of the article is weak. In my opinion the article was not suitably vetted by Spectrum.

kube-system 7y ago
Plenty of people use hand-free devices with their phones in their pockets. Many others hold the phone against their head when talking on it. Additionally, there are many network-intensive applications which can be used while the phone is in your pocket, i.e. mobile hotspot. Probably the least common scenario is for a phone to be transmitting at full power when it's not in close contact with a human.

rini17 7y ago

To everyone who keeps repeating "it's non-ionizing radiation, so any other effect than thermal is impossible": 1. saying something is impossible is not a scientific statement 2. RF is capable of specifically affecting enzyme reactions, random example: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/nr/c4nr00407h#!divAbstract https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2014/nr/c4nr0...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
willis936 7y ago
This ignores the primary issue of needing empirical evidence before claiming discovery. If non-ionizing radiation of a certain level is hazardous then it is provable. Affecting enzyme reactions is an observed effect, but what is the health risk?
- rini17 7y ago
  We don't know yet, so.. better safe than sorry, no?
  - sneak 7y ago
    Imagine if we said this about the food that comes out of every new restaurant. Risk management is more than just universal risk aversion.
    - rini17 7y ago
      Yes, at least in my country, every restaurant is subject to stringent hygiene regulations and audits. Is it a problem for you?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - 7y ago

remote_phone 7y ago

If the phone has a strong wifi signal but a very poor cell signal, will it emit a lot of RF still?

Jolter 7y ago
Yes, the wattage required to reach the cell tower is unaffected by wifi coverage.
- sudosysgen 7y ago
  If there is WiFi, the radios will be much much less active or even switch away from LTE/5G.

8bitsrule 7y ago

I was confused by the "3.8W/kg" number. This Chi Trib article helped: it details "the federal safety limit, which is 1.6 watts per kilogram averaged over one gram of tissue." and explains how a former Qualcomm engineer did the testing. [0] https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-radiation-testing-20190821-72qgu4nzlfda5kyuhteiieh4da-story.html#nt=interstitial-manual https://www.chicagotribune.com/investigations/ct-cell-phone-...

GnarfGnarf 7y ago

EMR meters measure Volts/meter (V/m), milliwatts per square meter (mW/m²), and milliGauss (mG). How do you convert to watts/kilogram? Maybe measure the surface of my cross-section, multiply by mW/m², divide by my weight? I have a Cornet ED88T, a GQ-390, and a Tenmars on order.

_bxg1 7y ago

If the only possible negative effect is "burns", then it's easy to verify that people all over the world aren't getting burned by their phones, no? Testing and standards are still important, but it doesn't sound like there's some nefarious hidden effect we may just not know about.

ta999999171 7y ago

You also can't prove politicians fuck kids, buuuuut....

foxx-boxx 7y ago

It smells like a “you’ve caused by brain cancer” lawsuit.

sschueller 7y ago

I have posted this in the previous post that came up about this but I am quite concerned that the idustry may be currently self certifing its devices and getting phones past FCC regulations that do not meet the requirements just like Boeing and the FAA. We need proper funding for the FCC so they can do that job and not some industry paid company with a conflict of intrest.