9 ms·

Let's keep in mind that prevention -- less production -- reduces pollution more than cleaning after it's there. Regulation can help, which results from popular

by spodek 7y ago

Let's keep in mind that prevention -- less production -- reduces pollution more than cleaning after it's there. Regulation can help, which results from popular support. Bans and other legislation in cities and nations around the world are resulting from people voicing and acting against plastic and pollution, but we're barely started. When enough of us act as consumers not to buy polluting products, producers will respond to products not selling by producing less. I would have thought I couldn't do much until I started avoiding packaged food. A few years' practice led to me filling only one load of garbage per year in 2019, 2018, and 2017 http://joshuaspodek.com/avoiding-food-packaging-2 http://joshuaspodek.com/avoiding-food-packaging-2 -- while saving money and time and increasing meals with friends and family and meeting my farmers. Those in food deserts or who had less time asked me to teach them to do it since it helped them. Food packaging is only one source of plastic. We can avoid other junk too, particularly relevant after Christmas. Anecdotally, here in Manhattan, piles of garbage around discarded pine trees look larger, overflowing with packaging.

Iv 7y ago
The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets. Ground based sources of oceanic plastic are coastal cities. Rivers in developed countries carry very little plastic to the sea. Actually a fistful of rivers in poor population basin account for most of the inland sources of oceanic plastic. Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean.
- CaptArmchair 7y ago
  No. That's incorrect. This study published in Nature (2017) by the Ocean Cleanup researcher contradicts your statement entirely: https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms15611 https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms15611 > Our model is calibrated against measurements available in the literature. We estimate that between 1.15 and 2.41 million tonnes of plastic waste currently enters the ocean every year from rivers, with over 74% of emissions occurring between May and October. The top 20 polluting rivers, mostly located in Asia, account for 67% of the global total. The findings of this study provide baseline data for ocean plastic mass balance exercises, and assist in prioritizing future plastic debris monitoring and mitigation strategies. The likelihood of your trash ending up in the ocean depends entirely on where you live and how your trash gets processed. The only part of your statement that's somewhat correct is that rivers in developed countries carry less plastics to the oceans compared to developing countries. But "very little" is creating a false impression of the problem. Processing disposable plastic waste is a problem that can be avoided by... not using disposable plastics at all. This is first and foremost a moral choice: whether or not we want to put the health of the ecosystem of which we are part above our own personal short-term convenience. Thailand banned the use of disposable plastic bags this month: https://phys.org/news/2020-01-thai-retailers-single-use-plastic-bags.html https://phys.org/news/2020-01-thai-retailers-single-use-plas... You'd think that the Thai would oppose the ban. That's not what's happening if you gauge the sentiment on social media: https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plastic-bag-ban-thailand/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plast...
  - anamexis 7y ago
    Without comparison to the amount of plastic coming from fishing nets and coastal cities, this didn't contradict anything in the parent post.
    - CaptArmchair 7y ago
      His first assertion isn't based on any actual numbers or research either: > The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets. Whereas the research shows: > We estimate that between 1.15 and 2.41 million tonnes of plastic waste currently enters the ocean every year from rivers So, that leaves only two conclusions if you connect both statements: the vast majority of what is disposed by rivers is fishnets, or there's millions of tonnes of fishnets in the oceans next to what's disposed by rivers.
      - anamexis 7y ago
        I think it's obviously the second conclusion being asserted. A cursory Google search produced some supporting sources, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-fishing-gear-is-biggest-plastic-polluter-in-ocean-finds-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-f...
  - Iv 7y ago
    > You'd think that the Thai would oppose the ban Why? Anti-ecologism is not really a thing in most of the world. It is a far-right thing in a few countries like Brazil and US, but a lot of nations don't consider "fick the environment, I want to save one cent on packaging" to be edgy.
    - ulzeraj 7y ago
      Well its good that you are doing the things you think its correct but please stop with the gratuitous generalization. We don't love pollution as much as you think here in Brazil.
      - 7y ago
- chmod775 7y ago
  > Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Except that the plastic waste of certain countries tends to get "exported" to these places and then dumped there - if it doesn't get dumped into the ocean before it can even get there. The poorest places don't tend to generate so much plastic waste because it is mostly a by-product of "luxury goods" (read: trash) in developed countries bought by clueless consumers. For instance I will never understand the people who buy plastic-wrapped pre-sliced "salami" that hardly resembles the real thing in anything but name. I recently saw croissants(!) getting sold off the shelf in a supermarket. How the hell do you even make that work? Of course they were wrapped in plastic. I don't even want to know how they them make them last long enough. No way they're still crisp outside if the whole thing hasn't turned into a rock. I feel like some people will buy something not despite it being a plastic wrapped faint imitation of the real thing - but because it is.
  - ascar 7y ago
    > For instance I will never understand the people who buy plastic-wrapped pre-sliced "salami" Well, if I don't buy it presliced from the butcher I always buy packaged presliced milano salami, because it's nearly impossible to slice it thin enough with a knife. There is also not really a difference in quality. Both products are imported from Italy anyway.
    - rch 7y ago
      My butcher slices it, and weighs it out, and wraps it in recycled paper, which I store in glass containers at home.
  - beatgammit 7y ago
    I've had croissants individually wrapped (e.g. at airports and other grab and go type places) and wrapped as a group (supermarkets and warehouse stores), and while neither are as good as buying fresh from a bakery, they're surprisingly good. The ones from Costco can last a few days before they're too dry to be good. If you care more about convenience than utmost quality, plastic does a pretty good job. In fact, I can't recall the last time I've had a croissant from a bakery, and I have definitely purchased dozens of packaged, off-the-shelf croissants in that time. Even though they're not as good as fresh, they're still good, to the point where it's not worth the time or extra money to go to the bakery. This is true for many other products as well. My grocery store butcher packages everything in plastic wrap, even if you get it from the counter (I think they have paper upon request). My self-serve, bulk foods company (WinCo) requires you to use their plastic bags instead of bringing your own containers (simplifies checkout process). Nearly everything I could want to buy is more conveniently purchased wrapped in plastic. People but plastic-wrapped products because of convenience, not because they prefer the packaging. I honestly prefer getting meat wrapped in paper because it's much easier to unwrap than plastic. I prefer getting bakery items in a paper bag than a clamshell or cellophane wrap, again, because it's easier to unpackage. However, to get those items packaged that way, I need to go out of my way, and specialty shops tend to have less reliable inventories because they're lower volume businesses. I doubt anyone prefers wasteful, inconvenient packaging, people just prefer convenience, and wasteful, inconvenient packaging is more convenient for stores, so that's what gets used. If you want to change the world, make a more convenient, cost-effective way to package things than plastic.
- dylan604 7y ago
  > Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Daily, I see people getting rid of the plastic wrapping around their new cigarette pack by throwing it out the car window or just dropping it straight to the ground. It's that type of plastic that makes its way to the city's runoff which makes its way to streams/rivers/lakes/oceans/etc. After any significant amount of rain, there's a few places I can drive by to see where the trash from throughout the city has washed into the grassy areas around bends in creaks/rivers. It's a good visual example of where the plastic pollution is originating.
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    Cellophane is biodegradable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane Most people worry about the wrong thing. If you live in the West, you're not appreciably contributing to ocean plastic pollution (and no, you're almost certainly not doing so by "shipping your garbage to china" either). Smokers, definitely not contributing to plastic pollution.
    - spodek 7y ago
      > Smokers, definitely not contributing to plastic pollution National Geographic and Phys.org report otherwise: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/cigarettes-story-of-plastic https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/cigar... and https://phys.org/news/2019-07-cigarette-butts-forgotten-plastic-pollutionand.html https://phys.org/news/2019-07-cigarette-butts-forgotten-plas... Others producing more doesn't reduce their pollution.
      - scottlocklin 7y ago
        Cellulose acetate aka cigarette butts, turns into dirt 4 months in the soil or a few years out in the open sunlight[1]. It's vastly more biodegradable than your hoodie, your socks, your Starbucks cup or even something like dried up egg yolk. I don't think people should throw it on the ground, because trash barrels and ash trays are there for a reason, but it's basically not an environmental problem at all. It's just unsightly litter. > Others producing more doesn't reduce their pollution. If you actually want to solve environmental problems, how about solving actual problems instead of picking on lower class cigarette smokers who aren't causing any issues? It sure seems like an awful lot of "environmentalism" is nothing more than a disgusting social class pose. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_acetate
- neuronic 7y ago
  Our own trash is shipped to Asia first and then it ends up in some of those rivers. We pay Asian countries a lot to take our garbage.
  - comicjk 7y ago
    We pay other countries to take our garbage only because we prefer to imagine it is being recycled. It's not like we don't have enough landfill space here, if we were willing to treat it as the trash that it is.
    - WoahNoun 7y ago
      Yea there was a great two part planet money series on recycling this year. And the economic take away is that the current state of recycling in the US is broken and we have more than enough landfill space for thousands of years. One idea was to just burn it which this mentioned is what some European countries are doing. https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739893511/episode-925-a-mob-boss-a-garbage-boat-and-why-we-recycle https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739893511/episode-925-a-mob-b... https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/741283641/episode-926-so-should-we-recycle https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/741283641/episode-926-so-shou...
- spodek 7y ago
  > The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets So apply what I wrote and you get: eat less fish. Since this is HN, people will talk about pros and cons of eating fish, but there's only one reason people create fishing nets. If people consume less of things that damage the environment, we will produce less of it and therefore damage less of it. If some populations have to eat it, most can still eat less. I last ate fish in 1990.
  - jsilence 7y ago
    Or eat aquacultured fish from your region. For example from an aquaponic system. But there are few viable commercial operations on the market so far.
    - millettjon 7y ago
      The large scale fish farms also pollute heavily.
      - jsilence 7y ago
        Absolutely! Sustainable, low emission recirculating aquaculture comes at a price. It is not yet clear whether customers are willing to pay the premium for products from a good solution.
      - atdrummond 7y ago
        The operations described by your OP aren’t large scale fish farms.
    - the8472 7y ago
      Aren't aquacultured fish fed with fishmeal, which means even more fishing nets due to the conversion inefficiencies of carnivorous fish?
      - jsilence 7y ago
        At the time fishmeal and fish oil are neccessary to supply certain nutrients, lysin and methionine for example, but suppliers have been successfully reducing the amount of fishmeal and oil in recent times. The goal is to reduce it to a minimum. Not all fishmeal is unsustainable. The slaughtering residue from wild catch and from aquaculture as well as the bycatch are ressources for fish feed that we should not waste.
- monk_e_boy 7y ago
  I was at the beach today (UK) and there was more net than I could carry. It was in about 100 bits that I tied together into a giant ball. There were around 60 plastic bottles, a few big plastic cans (oil) and lots of micro plastic.
- api 7y ago
  Not all coastal cities. Multiple studies have sourced most ocean plastic to Chinese rivers and coastal cities (90th percentile) followed by India and a few other places. Why do we have to pretend that all coastal cities are equally at fault when this is clearly not true? Are people afraid its somehow racist? It has nothing to do with race but with certain governments that just don't care. It's become a pet peeve of mine when charges of racism is used to deflect political criticism of governments. In the US dumping trash in rivers is a crime and will get you in serious trouble: large fines, seizure of trucks and equipment, maybe even criminal charges.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  > Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Except if you live in Asia or a developing country, which is a large percentage of the world population. After traveling through that region I can honestly say that I am not surprised to see so much plastic in the oceans. People dump trash in the water, throw plastic bottles on the ground, waste and recycling infrastructure is largely non-existent. Even in richer middle tier countries like China people just toss their plastic into the rivers.
  - andrekandre 7y ago
    when visiting some island resorts (like 2 hour boat ride out) in thailand i was shocked at how much plastic garbage was floating around those otherwise beautiful islands... it’s my opinion these things need to become laws and business, not just individuals need to be fined heavily for jut dumping trash out
ehnto 7y ago
I think we should focus more on remedial treatments for these problems, because I don't believe humanity has it in itself to prevent it from continuing any time soon. I agree that we need to try and achieve prevention. Consumer action has proved nearly powerless though, frankly. There will never be enough consumer buy in. We've been campaigning for recycling for decades and it's gotten us here. Our modern lives are built on oil and plastic, not even the ones who care and try are doing good enough. You're far and wide an outlier, you would probably have a hard time convincing other avid recyclers to go to your level, to say nothing of the consuming majority. We are going to need to prescribe this change, not ask politely for it. Through regulation and economic policies. If there is a buck to be made you will have the immense power of capitalism on your side, the same forces that cause the situation can be used against it. Perhaps if we tax oil so much that plastic stops being a cheap material, and plastic recycling and recapture from the oceans becomes profitable, technology and investment in fixing the oceans can prosper.
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's really only a matter of changing packaging in supermarkets. It's the sort of thing that could be done in a blanket fashion within a couple of years if a major government just stepped up and said "no bullshit plastic waste everywhere". That is to say - it's preventable as soon as a major government says so. Unfortunately none of them seem to have the balls. It's fine and dandy to spend multiple years on political fluff (see UK), but god forbid we make any serious changes in packaging regulation.
  - CaptArmchair 7y ago
    Thailand just banned disposable plastic bags... and the Thai seem to have totally embraced the decision: https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plastic-bag-ban-thailand/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plast... https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/plastics/majority-of-thais-support-single-use-plastic-bag-ban https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/plastics/majority-of-thais-s... As far as the U.K is concerned: it will off the use of plastic straws, cotton buds and drink stirrers in april 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/22/england-plastic-straws-ban https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/22/england-... Following a complete ban adopted by the European Parliament in 2018 which will be implemented across all members of the union: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/24/european-parliament-approves-ban-on-single-use-plastics-uk-eu-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/24/european... Seems like politicians do have balls to tackle the problem. Sadly, we lost so much time over the past decades when everyone knew that this was a problem.
vic-traill 7y ago
>A few years' practice led to me filling only one load of garbage per year in 2019, 2018, and 2017 That's impressive. I've been trying to reduce plastic use on a room by room basis, and it's tough as almost every product has a plastic component in the packaging at least. The kitchen has been the most difficult thus far; for example, I cannot find a alternative to mayonnaise in a plastic jar. I've tried making my own but this is a work in progress as I haven't got it quite right yet. I heard a commentator say (paraphrased) 'Buy food that looks like food. The more writing there is on it, the less reason to buy'. This was in the context of healthy eating which has a great side-effect of generating less garbage. And vice versa.
- shaklee3 7y ago
  I'd suggest this recipe: https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/two-minute-mayonnaise.html https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/two-minute-mayon... If you have an immersion blender, it takes literally 2 minutes, and is fool-proof. Doing it other ways, such as manually or a food processor is a little trickier. I've done this way now for a while and never need to buy mayonnaise anymore. Kenji has a vegan recipe too using aquafaba if you're in to that.
- spodek 7y ago
  Experience teaches how to avoid packaging. For example, I had your mayonnaise issue with vinegar until I started making my own, which turns out incredibly easy and fun. My bulk food store sells soy sauce, soap, and other things into containers I bring. With mayonnaise, you might consider my solution for oil: stop buying it. I haven't used oil in years and eat a lot more nuts. Everyone's tastes are unique, but I love this trade.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- beatgammit 7y ago
  Honestly, I would continue to focus on the easier stuff first. If the choice becomes "make your own", move on to another product because that's a very time consuming path to do down. The only "staple" I make regularly is yogurt because it's easy, healthy (I control the sugar content), I can do a lot at once, saves money, and generates a ton less waste. Everything else in my pantry is either purchased infrequently or requires a lot of work to make myself that I've moved on to other things. Instead of trying to create those things, I try to reduce my use of them. Making mayo or ketchup isn't worth it IMO (mustard is easy though), and they're not particularly healthy either, so I just try to reduce how much I eat them. I think reducing waste should involve a more complete review of our lifestyle, not just replacing items one by one. For example, I only really use mayonnaise when making certain sandwiches, and I only eat those sandwiches because they're convenient and semi healthy. Instead of figuring out how to make mayonnaise more ecologically sustainable, I instead look for more healthy foods that I can make more convenient, like salads, burritos, and sir fry, all of which don't need mayonnaise.
voisin 7y ago
“When enough of us act as consumers not to buy polluting products, producers will respond to products not selling by producing less.” This argument bothers me a great deal. It takes a simple solution (regulation) and turns it into a complicated distributed solution (convincing the majority of consumers to make the right decision) prone to disinformation campaigns, green washing, confusion, and simple lack of attention. We have governments for reasons. This is one of those reasons. They need to do their job and stop using our behaviour as an excuse for inaction.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  These things are not mutually exclusive. You can (and should) both do your best to consume as ethically as possible, and advocate, vote, etc. for action. I find it troubling how readily so many of us are to change nothing about our behavior and point the finger at some scapegoat. The unfortunate reality is: - the more money we spend on <thing> the more <thing>’s manufacturer has to lobby for its continued existence - the more we standardize that product as “normal” we make regulating it less politically viable (see blowback re: plastic straws)
  - galangalalgol 7y ago
    Paper straws are horrible! They get soggy so quickly! Also paper bags cause more harm than plastic, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same were true of straws. At home i use stainless straws but when I'm out I refuse paper straws. Why can't someone make a recyclable straw?
    - edflsafoiewq 7y ago
      What do people use straws for in the first place? Just drink out of the cup.
      - galangalalgol 7y ago
        Yeah I agree. I mostly get a straw for ice tea, which comes in styrofoam... Styrofoam is unfortunate. It is super easy to recycle, but too inefficient to transport. I've been trying to come up with a solar powered Styrofoam recycler that stores up blocks of solid polystyrene for pickup. The hard part is knowing people will put other things in to mess it up. Otherwise a tank of gasoline to dissolve it with a closed evaporation loop is all you would need.
vxNsr 7y ago
I'm guessing the answer is you've gone vegan, but I gotta ask... eggs, milk, cheese and meat? how do you do get them without packaging?
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Buy from a local farmer or butcher. And eggs usually come in compostable packaging.
- spodek 7y ago
  Bea Johnson talks about meat and cheese in some of her videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bea+johnson&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bea+johnson&oq=.... I see the egg vendors at the farmers market filling cartons that people bring, then stacking the cartons they brought the eggs in, I presume to reuse. My top strategy is to lose taste in such things, like everyone I know looks at cigarettes. People's diets are their business, but I used to eat a lot of those things and now find them not remotely like food.
- forwhomst 7y ago
  Milk in glass bottles. Meat is wrapped in paper. Eggs go in a a paper carton. Cheese is tricky, most markets still wrap cut cheese in plastic, so I have to buy it from an actual cheese shop that uses waxed paper. Consequently I don’t eat much cheese.
  - vxNsr 7y ago
    Isn't paper going to be thrown out anyway? And I've read that wax paper especially is difficult to recycle.
    - arrosenberg 7y ago
      Pretty sure wax paper can be composted.
  - SXX 7y ago
    You can just buy whole head of cheese and it's not only can be stored in fridge for months without getting bad, but also almost always matured in wax to begin with. Of course not all cheeses sold this way, but certainly most are never packed with plastic until product get to the end of supply chain at grocery store. It's alao cheaper to buy this way and quality of product on your table going to be much higher.
almost_usual 7y ago
The problem is most people don’t care and won’t change even with this information. Society pretty much runs on consumption. While I 100% agree that reduction is a better solution it only works if it’s applied.
lopmotr 7y ago
The funny thing is people confuse recycling with reducing ocean plastic. I've had conversations like this "Why do you recycle?" "Because plastic kills birds." "But only if it gets washed out to sea, right?" "Yea, sometimes it blows away from the landfill or an abandoned landfill erodes into a river.". Then a newspaper report of volunteers cleaning rubbish off the beach has them complaining that it's mostly plastic items people put in their recycling bins that got blown out and washed down the drain into the sea. People see news about the ocean plastic and somehow assume the moral thing they've been taught about recycling is the cure. They don't want to know that it's mostly fishing gear and rubbish from S.E. Asian cities where people directly drop rubbish into the rivers on purpose.
keymone 7y ago
Also relentless public shaming. Like, who’s idea was it to put micro plastics in shower gels and stuff? I want to know their names and the whole chain of management that made it happen. They should be publicly humiliated, win international prizes for shittiest inventions, etc. Why is it that we only celebrate good contributions and never reflect on the bad with same degree of publicity?
- yesenadam 7y ago
  I really like this idea. It has a fun element, which the subject desperately needs. Could be like the Ig Nobel prize[0], but for products/inventions that do the most harm, that make the world a worse place. Although I guess people wouldn't turn up to accept their prize. Maybe something like it already exists? [0] which celebrates "unusual or trivial achievements in scientific research", mostly papers with totally absurd-sounding titles. https://www.improbable.com/ig-about/ https://www.improbable.com/ig-about/ The associated Luxuriant Flowing Hair Clubs for Scientists is possibly even more awesome. https://www.improbable.com/hair/ https://www.improbable.com/hair/
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Regulation? Decent waste retrieval and processing. Plenty of trash bins and pay people (you know, employees) to pick up what others don't. And remember that most plastics that end up in the ocean are from south-east Asia. Part of which are likely exported from Europe and / or the US.

by spodek 7y ago

Iv 7y ago

The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets. Ground based sources of oceanic plastic are coastal cities. Rivers in developed countries carry very little plastic to the sea. Actually a fistful of rivers in poor population basin account for most of the inland sources of oceanic plastic. Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean.

CaptArmchair 7y ago
No. That's incorrect. This study published in Nature (2017) by the Ocean Cleanup researcher contradicts your statement entirely: https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms15611 https://doi.org/10.1038/ncomms15611 > Our model is calibrated against measurements available in the literature. We estimate that between 1.15 and 2.41 million tonnes of plastic waste currently enters the ocean every year from rivers, with over 74% of emissions occurring between May and October. The top 20 polluting rivers, mostly located in Asia, account for 67% of the global total. The findings of this study provide baseline data for ocean plastic mass balance exercises, and assist in prioritizing future plastic debris monitoring and mitigation strategies. The likelihood of your trash ending up in the ocean depends entirely on where you live and how your trash gets processed. The only part of your statement that's somewhat correct is that rivers in developed countries carry less plastics to the oceans compared to developing countries. But "very little" is creating a false impression of the problem. Processing disposable plastic waste is a problem that can be avoided by... not using disposable plastics at all. This is first and foremost a moral choice: whether or not we want to put the health of the ecosystem of which we are part above our own personal short-term convenience. Thailand banned the use of disposable plastic bags this month: https://phys.org/news/2020-01-thai-retailers-single-use-plastic-bags.html https://phys.org/news/2020-01-thai-retailers-single-use-plas... You'd think that the Thai would oppose the ban. That's not what's happening if you gauge the sentiment on social media: https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plastic-bag-ban-thailand/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plast...
- anamexis 7y ago
  Without comparison to the amount of plastic coming from fishing nets and coastal cities, this didn't contradict anything in the parent post.
  - CaptArmchair 7y ago
    His first assertion isn't based on any actual numbers or research either: > The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets. Whereas the research shows: > We estimate that between 1.15 and 2.41 million tonnes of plastic waste currently enters the ocean every year from rivers So, that leaves only two conclusions if you connect both statements: the vast majority of what is disposed by rivers is fishnets, or there's millions of tonnes of fishnets in the oceans next to what's disposed by rivers.
    - anamexis 7y ago
      I think it's obviously the second conclusion being asserted. A cursory Google search produced some supporting sources, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-fishing-gear-is-biggest-plastic-polluter-in-ocean-finds-report https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/06/dumped-f...
- Iv 7y ago
  > You'd think that the Thai would oppose the ban Why? Anti-ecologism is not really a thing in most of the world. It is a far-right thing in a few countries like Brazil and US, but a lot of nations don't consider "fick the environment, I want to save one cent on packaging" to be edgy.
  - ulzeraj 7y ago
    Well its good that you are doing the things you think its correct but please stop with the gratuitous generalization. We don't love pollution as much as you think here in Brazil.
    - 7y ago
chmod775 7y ago
> Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Except that the plastic waste of certain countries tends to get "exported" to these places and then dumped there - if it doesn't get dumped into the ocean before it can even get there. The poorest places don't tend to generate so much plastic waste because it is mostly a by-product of "luxury goods" (read: trash) in developed countries bought by clueless consumers. For instance I will never understand the people who buy plastic-wrapped pre-sliced "salami" that hardly resembles the real thing in anything but name. I recently saw croissants(!) getting sold off the shelf in a supermarket. How the hell do you even make that work? Of course they were wrapped in plastic. I don't even want to know how they them make them last long enough. No way they're still crisp outside if the whole thing hasn't turned into a rock. I feel like some people will buy something not despite it being a plastic wrapped faint imitation of the real thing - but because it is.
- ascar 7y ago
  > For instance I will never understand the people who buy plastic-wrapped pre-sliced "salami" Well, if I don't buy it presliced from the butcher I always buy packaged presliced milano salami, because it's nearly impossible to slice it thin enough with a knife. There is also not really a difference in quality. Both products are imported from Italy anyway.
  - rch 7y ago
    My butcher slices it, and weighs it out, and wraps it in recycled paper, which I store in glass containers at home.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  I've had croissants individually wrapped (e.g. at airports and other grab and go type places) and wrapped as a group (supermarkets and warehouse stores), and while neither are as good as buying fresh from a bakery, they're surprisingly good. The ones from Costco can last a few days before they're too dry to be good. If you care more about convenience than utmost quality, plastic does a pretty good job. In fact, I can't recall the last time I've had a croissant from a bakery, and I have definitely purchased dozens of packaged, off-the-shelf croissants in that time. Even though they're not as good as fresh, they're still good, to the point where it's not worth the time or extra money to go to the bakery. This is true for many other products as well. My grocery store butcher packages everything in plastic wrap, even if you get it from the counter (I think they have paper upon request). My self-serve, bulk foods company (WinCo) requires you to use their plastic bags instead of bringing your own containers (simplifies checkout process). Nearly everything I could want to buy is more conveniently purchased wrapped in plastic. People but plastic-wrapped products because of convenience, not because they prefer the packaging. I honestly prefer getting meat wrapped in paper because it's much easier to unwrap than plastic. I prefer getting bakery items in a paper bag than a clamshell or cellophane wrap, again, because it's easier to unpackage. However, to get those items packaged that way, I need to go out of my way, and specialty shops tend to have less reliable inventories because they're lower volume businesses. I doubt anyone prefers wasteful, inconvenient packaging, people just prefer convenience, and wasteful, inconvenient packaging is more convenient for stores, so that's what gets used. If you want to change the world, make a more convenient, cost-effective way to package things than plastic.
dylan604 7y ago
> Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Daily, I see people getting rid of the plastic wrapping around their new cigarette pack by throwing it out the car window or just dropping it straight to the ground. It's that type of plastic that makes its way to the city's runoff which makes its way to streams/rivers/lakes/oceans/etc. After any significant amount of rain, there's a few places I can drive by to see where the trash from throughout the city has washed into the grassy areas around bends in creaks/rivers. It's a good visual example of where the plastic pollution is originating.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Cellophane is biodegradable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane Most people worry about the wrong thing. If you live in the West, you're not appreciably contributing to ocean plastic pollution (and no, you're almost certainly not doing so by "shipping your garbage to china" either). Smokers, definitely not contributing to plastic pollution.
  - spodek 7y ago
    > Smokers, definitely not contributing to plastic pollution National Geographic and Phys.org report otherwise: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/cigarettes-story-of-plastic https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/cigar... and https://phys.org/news/2019-07-cigarette-butts-forgotten-plastic-pollutionand.html https://phys.org/news/2019-07-cigarette-butts-forgotten-plas... Others producing more doesn't reduce their pollution.
    - scottlocklin 7y ago
      Cellulose acetate aka cigarette butts, turns into dirt 4 months in the soil or a few years out in the open sunlight[1]. It's vastly more biodegradable than your hoodie, your socks, your Starbucks cup or even something like dried up egg yolk. I don't think people should throw it on the ground, because trash barrels and ash trays are there for a reason, but it's basically not an environmental problem at all. It's just unsightly litter. > Others producing more doesn't reduce their pollution. If you actually want to solve environmental problems, how about solving actual problems instead of picking on lower class cigarette smokers who aren't causing any issues? It sure seems like an awful lot of "environmentalism" is nothing more than a disgusting social class pose. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose_acetate
neuronic 7y ago
Our own trash is shipped to Asia first and then it ends up in some of those rivers. We pay Asian countries a lot to take our garbage.
- comicjk 7y ago
  We pay other countries to take our garbage only because we prefer to imagine it is being recycled. It's not like we don't have enough landfill space here, if we were willing to treat it as the trash that it is.
  - WoahNoun 7y ago
    Yea there was a great two part planet money series on recycling this year. And the economic take away is that the current state of recycling in the US is broken and we have more than enough landfill space for thousands of years. One idea was to just burn it which this mentioned is what some European countries are doing. https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739893511/episode-925-a-mob-boss-a-garbage-boat-and-why-we-recycle https://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739893511/episode-925-a-mob-b... https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/741283641/episode-926-so-should-we-recycle https://www.npr.org/2019/07/12/741283641/episode-926-so-shou...
spodek 7y ago
> The first source of oceans plastic is fishing nets So apply what I wrote and you get: eat less fish. Since this is HN, people will talk about pros and cons of eating fish, but there's only one reason people create fishing nets. If people consume less of things that damage the environment, we will produce less of it and therefore damage less of it. If some populations have to eat it, most can still eat less. I last ate fish in 1990.
- jsilence 7y ago
  Or eat aquacultured fish from your region. For example from an aquaponic system. But there are few viable commercial operations on the market so far.
  - millettjon 7y ago
    The large scale fish farms also pollute heavily.
    - jsilence 7y ago
      Absolutely! Sustainable, low emission recirculating aquaculture comes at a price. It is not yet clear whether customers are willing to pay the premium for products from a good solution.
    - atdrummond 7y ago
      The operations described by your OP aren’t large scale fish farms.
  - the8472 7y ago
    Aren't aquacultured fish fed with fishmeal, which means even more fishing nets due to the conversion inefficiencies of carnivorous fish?
    - jsilence 7y ago
      At the time fishmeal and fish oil are neccessary to supply certain nutrients, lysin and methionine for example, but suppliers have been successfully reducing the amount of fishmeal and oil in recent times. The goal is to reduce it to a minimum. Not all fishmeal is unsustainable. The slaughtering residue from wild catch and from aquaculture as well as the bycatch are ressources for fish feed that we should not waste.
monk_e_boy 7y ago
I was at the beach today (UK) and there was more net than I could carry. It was in about 100 bits that I tied together into a giant ball. There were around 60 plastic bottles, a few big plastic cans (oil) and lots of micro plastic.
api 7y ago
Not all coastal cities. Multiple studies have sourced most ocean plastic to Chinese rivers and coastal cities (90th percentile) followed by India and a few other places. Why do we have to pretend that all coastal cities are equally at fault when this is clearly not true? Are people afraid its somehow racist? It has nothing to do with race but with certain governments that just don't care. It's become a pet peeve of mine when charges of racism is used to deflect political criticism of governments. In the US dumping trash in rivers is a crime and will get you in serious trouble: large fines, seizure of trucks and equipment, maybe even criminal charges.
jorblumesea 7y ago
> Your own trash is very unlikely to end up in the ocean. Except if you live in Asia or a developing country, which is a large percentage of the world population. After traveling through that region I can honestly say that I am not surprised to see so much plastic in the oceans. People dump trash in the water, throw plastic bottles on the ground, waste and recycling infrastructure is largely non-existent. Even in richer middle tier countries like China people just toss their plastic into the rivers.
- andrekandre 7y ago
  when visiting some island resorts (like 2 hour boat ride out) in thailand i was shocked at how much plastic garbage was floating around those otherwise beautiful islands... it’s my opinion these things need to become laws and business, not just individuals need to be fined heavily for jut dumping trash out

ehnto 7y ago

I think we should focus more on remedial treatments for these problems, because I don't believe humanity has it in itself to prevent it from continuing any time soon. I agree that we need to try and achieve prevention. Consumer action has proved nearly powerless though, frankly. There will never be enough consumer buy in. We've been campaigning for recycling for decades and it's gotten us here. Our modern lives are built on oil and plastic, not even the ones who care and try are doing good enough. You're far and wide an outlier, you would probably have a hard time convincing other avid recyclers to go to your level, to say nothing of the consuming majority. We are going to need to prescribe this change, not ask politely for it. Through regulation and economic policies. If there is a buck to be made you will have the immense power of capitalism on your side, the same forces that cause the situation can be used against it. Perhaps if we tax oil so much that plastic stops being a cheap material, and plastic recycling and recapture from the oceans becomes profitable, technology and investment in fixing the oceans can prosper.

esotericn 7y ago
It's really only a matter of changing packaging in supermarkets. It's the sort of thing that could be done in a blanket fashion within a couple of years if a major government just stepped up and said "no bullshit plastic waste everywhere". That is to say - it's preventable as soon as a major government says so. Unfortunately none of them seem to have the balls. It's fine and dandy to spend multiple years on political fluff (see UK), but god forbid we make any serious changes in packaging regulation.
- CaptArmchair 7y ago
  Thailand just banned disposable plastic bags... and the Thai seem to have totally embraced the decision: https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plastic-bag-ban-thailand/ https://www.boredpanda.com/unusual-ways-people-dealing-plast... https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/plastics/majority-of-thais-support-single-use-plastic-bag-ban https://thethaiger.com/hot-news/plastics/majority-of-thais-s... As far as the U.K is concerned: it will off the use of plastic straws, cotton buds and drink stirrers in april 2020: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/22/england-plastic-straws-ban https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/22/england-... Following a complete ban adopted by the European Parliament in 2018 which will be implemented across all members of the union: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/24/european-parliament-approves-ban-on-single-use-plastics-uk-eu-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/24/european... Seems like politicians do have balls to tackle the problem. Sadly, we lost so much time over the past decades when everyone knew that this was a problem.

vic-traill 7y ago

>A few years' practice led to me filling only one load of garbage per year in 2019, 2018, and 2017 That's impressive. I've been trying to reduce plastic use on a room by room basis, and it's tough as almost every product has a plastic component in the packaging at least. The kitchen has been the most difficult thus far; for example, I cannot find a alternative to mayonnaise in a plastic jar. I've tried making my own but this is a work in progress as I haven't got it quite right yet. I heard a commentator say (paraphrased) 'Buy food that looks like food. The more writing there is on it, the less reason to buy'. This was in the context of healthy eating which has a great side-effect of generating less garbage. And vice versa.

shaklee3 7y ago
I'd suggest this recipe: https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/two-minute-mayonnaise.html https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/10/two-minute-mayon... If you have an immersion blender, it takes literally 2 minutes, and is fool-proof. Doing it other ways, such as manually or a food processor is a little trickier. I've done this way now for a while and never need to buy mayonnaise anymore. Kenji has a vegan recipe too using aquafaba if you're in to that.
spodek 7y ago
Experience teaches how to avoid packaging. For example, I had your mayonnaise issue with vinegar until I started making my own, which turns out incredibly easy and fun. My bulk food store sells soy sauce, soap, and other things into containers I bring. With mayonnaise, you might consider my solution for oil: stop buying it. I haven't used oil in years and eat a lot more nuts. Everyone's tastes are unique, but I love this trade.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
beatgammit 7y ago
Honestly, I would continue to focus on the easier stuff first. If the choice becomes "make your own", move on to another product because that's a very time consuming path to do down. The only "staple" I make regularly is yogurt because it's easy, healthy (I control the sugar content), I can do a lot at once, saves money, and generates a ton less waste. Everything else in my pantry is either purchased infrequently or requires a lot of work to make myself that I've moved on to other things. Instead of trying to create those things, I try to reduce my use of them. Making mayo or ketchup isn't worth it IMO (mustard is easy though), and they're not particularly healthy either, so I just try to reduce how much I eat them. I think reducing waste should involve a more complete review of our lifestyle, not just replacing items one by one. For example, I only really use mayonnaise when making certain sandwiches, and I only eat those sandwiches because they're convenient and semi healthy. Instead of figuring out how to make mayonnaise more ecologically sustainable, I instead look for more healthy foods that I can make more convenient, like salads, burritos, and sir fry, all of which don't need mayonnaise.

voisin 7y ago

“When enough of us act as consumers not to buy polluting products, producers will respond to products not selling by producing less.” This argument bothers me a great deal. It takes a simple solution (regulation) and turns it into a complicated distributed solution (convincing the majority of consumers to make the right decision) prone to disinformation campaigns, green washing, confusion, and simple lack of attention. We have governments for reasons. This is one of those reasons. They need to do their job and stop using our behaviour as an excuse for inaction.

the_gastropod 7y ago
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can (and should) both do your best to consume as ethically as possible, and advocate, vote, etc. for action. I find it troubling how readily so many of us are to change nothing about our behavior and point the finger at some scapegoat. The unfortunate reality is: - the more money we spend on <thing> the more <thing>’s manufacturer has to lobby for its continued existence - the more we standardize that product as “normal” we make regulating it less politically viable (see blowback re: plastic straws)
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  Paper straws are horrible! They get soggy so quickly! Also paper bags cause more harm than plastic, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same were true of straws. At home i use stainless straws but when I'm out I refuse paper straws. Why can't someone make a recyclable straw?
  - edflsafoiewq 7y ago
    What do people use straws for in the first place? Just drink out of the cup.
    - galangalalgol 7y ago
      Yeah I agree. I mostly get a straw for ice tea, which comes in styrofoam... Styrofoam is unfortunate. It is super easy to recycle, but too inefficient to transport. I've been trying to come up with a solar powered Styrofoam recycler that stores up blocks of solid polystyrene for pickup. The hard part is knowing people will put other things in to mess it up. Otherwise a tank of gasoline to dissolve it with a closed evaporation loop is all you would need.

vxNsr 7y ago

I'm guessing the answer is you've gone vegan, but I gotta ask... eggs, milk, cheese and meat? how do you do get them without packaging?

Pfhreak 7y ago
Buy from a local farmer or butcher. And eggs usually come in compostable packaging.
spodek 7y ago
Bea Johnson talks about meat and cheese in some of her videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bea+johnson&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bea+johnson&oq=.... I see the egg vendors at the farmers market filling cartons that people bring, then stacking the cartons they brought the eggs in, I presume to reuse. My top strategy is to lose taste in such things, like everyone I know looks at cigarettes. People's diets are their business, but I used to eat a lot of those things and now find them not remotely like food.
forwhomst 7y ago
Milk in glass bottles. Meat is wrapped in paper. Eggs go in a a paper carton. Cheese is tricky, most markets still wrap cut cheese in plastic, so I have to buy it from an actual cheese shop that uses waxed paper. Consequently I don’t eat much cheese.
- vxNsr 7y ago
  Isn't paper going to be thrown out anyway? And I've read that wax paper especially is difficult to recycle.
  - arrosenberg 7y ago
    Pretty sure wax paper can be composted.
- SXX 7y ago
  You can just buy whole head of cheese and it's not only can be stored in fridge for months without getting bad, but also almost always matured in wax to begin with. Of course not all cheeses sold this way, but certainly most are never packed with plastic until product get to the end of supply chain at grocery store. It's alao cheaper to buy this way and quality of product on your table going to be much higher.

almost_usual 7y ago

The problem is most people don’t care and won’t change even with this information. Society pretty much runs on consumption. While I 100% agree that reduction is a better solution it only works if it’s applied.

lopmotr 7y ago

The funny thing is people confuse recycling with reducing ocean plastic. I've had conversations like this "Why do you recycle?" "Because plastic kills birds." "But only if it gets washed out to sea, right?" "Yea, sometimes it blows away from the landfill or an abandoned landfill erodes into a river.". Then a newspaper report of volunteers cleaning rubbish off the beach has them complaining that it's mostly plastic items people put in their recycling bins that got blown out and washed down the drain into the sea. People see news about the ocean plastic and somehow assume the moral thing they've been taught about recycling is the cure. They don't want to know that it's mostly fishing gear and rubbish from S.E. Asian cities where people directly drop rubbish into the rivers on purpose.

keymone 7y ago

Also relentless public shaming. Like, who’s idea was it to put micro plastics in shower gels and stuff? I want to know their names and the whole chain of management that made it happen. They should be publicly humiliated, win international prizes for shittiest inventions, etc. Why is it that we only celebrate good contributions and never reflect on the bad with same degree of publicity?

yesenadam 7y ago
I really like this idea. It has a fun element, which the subject desperately needs. Could be like the Ig Nobel prize[0], but for products/inventions that do the most harm, that make the world a worse place. Although I guess people wouldn't turn up to accept their prize. Maybe something like it already exists? [0] which celebrates "unusual or trivial achievements in scientific research", mostly papers with totally absurd-sounding titles. https://www.improbable.com/ig-about/ https://www.improbable.com/ig-about/ The associated Luxuriant Flowing Hair Clubs for Scientists is possibly even more awesome. https://www.improbable.com/hair/ https://www.improbable.com/hair/

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

Regulation? Decent waste retrieval and processing. Plenty of trash bins and pay people (you know, employees) to pick up what others don't. And remember that most plastics that end up in the ocean are from south-east Asia. Part of which are likely exported from Europe and / or the US.