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Ask HN: Joining Big Tech in One’s 40s

441 points by kemiller 7y ago

Hi HN — I'm 43, and at a bit of a crossroads. I sold my share in a company last year and have been taking time off to figure out my next move, and while I've mostly done startups my whole career, I am considering going for a job at a big tech company (FAANG/Lyft/Stripe/etc.). Does anyone have any experience doing this? I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management? What skills should I brush up on particularly? Mostly, I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and looking for something more stable, at least for a while.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Kirby64 7y ago
That's a pretty broad question, isn't it? Besides your age and that you used to work at startups and dislike the stress, there isn't much to go on for guidance. Who knows if you're suited for management, would be better as a code monkey, or what skills you need to brush up on?
- complianceowl 7y ago
  Not to be disrespectful, but your response sounds like those arrogant Stack Overflow responses that are simply not helpful. There is enough in his question for anyone to provide a proper answer.
  - jimmyvalmer 7y ago
    > Not to be disrespectful It's okay to be disrespectful. It's not okay to preface that disrespect with an overtly false disclaimer.
    - complianceowl 7y ago
      It's actually NOT okay to be disrespectful. Saying someone's response was "arrogant" is not disrespectful; calling them stupid for being arrogant - that would be disrespectful. Perceiving my comment to be disrespectful, I think, is a part of the larger societal problem that exists today; namely, of people being overly-sensative. Friend, I will gently invite you to toughen up.
      - jimmyvalmer 7y ago
        It's precisely because I'm not oversensitive that I see disrespect as a normal and at times productive human response. You can define "disrespect" however you wish. It matters little to the recipient who undoubtedly feels slighted at the "arrogant" characterization.
        complianceowl 7y ago
        Jimmy, I can only say this man. Your comment history on HN worries me. It's very, very negative, and hear me out. I'm not putting you down, but when there is anger or bitterness in one's heart that hasn't been dealt with, it's easy to only see, or even create, negativity in life. I don't want to argue with you. Just know that you can make a decision to root for others, uplift people with your comments on HN, and sometimes just totally pass up opportunities to argue and move on to a positive comment. Jumping from argument to argument on HN will only create anger and hate in your heart. I could be totally wrong. This is just my opinion. Regardless, I wish you the best man.
        jimmyvalmer 7y ago
        "I'm not putting you down [then puts me down]" You did it again. Please, it's okay to put people down.
  - Kirby64 7y ago
    The only question (and it appears to be the majority of the responses here) that looks like you can answer well is if other people have done what he's considering doing. Maybe that's the discussion he's looking for; the comments to that affect are definitely good. The remaining questions regarding coding vs. management or what skills to 'brush up on' are very person-dependent beyond general platitudes. Sure, discussions can be had, but it kind of depends on what he wants.
    - complianceowl 7y ago
      I appreciate the response.
sindaccos 7y ago
in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than technical skill. you need to disclose what was your role in these startups. if you want to go back to coding at FANG there would be less ageism but it will still be there. Be sure to brush up your algo, data structure. I would suggest finishing a book of programming interview and you should be set.
- bilekas 7y ago
  > in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than technical skill. I don't like this assumption: Some of the older engineers & architects I know are incredibly more adept at developing than management, and speaking with a lot of them, most are pushed into management roles instead of desiring them.
- jbverschoor 7y ago
  Big picture yes, but in tech management: Big picture infrastructure Big picture domain knowledge Big picture risk management Big picture release management Big picture languages Big picture frameworks Big picture architecture Big picture maintainability Big picture knowledge sharing Big picture build infrastructure Big picture etc If you have a GOOD senior, you will safe a lot of time on bs, and will make your junior devs shine like rockstars.
wefarrell 7y ago
"I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?" HN can't answer this for you. Which do you prefer?
- jawns 7y ago
  I think the unspoken question is whether it is more prudent for a person of this age to pursue an individual contributor role or a role in the management track. Take this for what it's worth, but anecdotally I've heard a lot of programmers find that once they hit this age, opportunities as an individual contributor are more limited. So if the goal is to get a stable job at a large tech company, then the question is which track to pursue, and I think the decision process should go like this: Really love coding, really hate management: Apply for IC. Tolerate/enjoy management: Apply for management.
  - kemiller 7y ago
    I am a great people manager, but it's subject to the monkey in the middle problem, which I find stressful.
    - ryandrake 7y ago
      Why not try sliding into project management or product management? It’s not “real” people management since you typically have no direct reports, but these careers allow you to remain technical and I’ve encountered way less ageism here.
bilekas 7y ago
What do you enjoy ? > I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and looking for something more stable, at least for a while. I think you have answered your own question there for the most part, and I don't think its too much to ask for a bit of stability. Personally, I would advise you take some time to think about what areas & roles you enjoyed the most, as you're looking for something possibly long term, don't make it difficult `WORK`, instead make it something you enjoy. Then you can dedicate your time looking for the projects/companies you really are excited about. Sounds like a dream, but theres no reason why you can't suit yourself! Best of luck! PS: I don't think you should worry about your age, if thats why it was in the title; but if you're like me, over time I lose patience with people who wonthave a genuine discussion & be open to being wrong. But this is a maturity thing that you can asses at interview time I guess.
mikece 7y ago
1. Can you do the job? 2. Are you reliable? 3. Will you, as a human being, negatively affect the team? Those are the things I try to determine when I interview someone.
chasd00 7y ago
i'm at the same spot. I've found the team lead role in the consulting industry to be enjoyable. I mentor junior devs (whole career mentoring in addition to technical mentoring) and try to setup Sr. devs to do their best work. I still get to write code and scratch that itch too. Consulting is nice because projects/customers come and go so every few months you're on to something different. Of course, consulting has down sides too but i seem to have a knack for it.
guyzero 7y ago
I was 37 when I joined Google in a senior IC role in 2008, so nearly my entire 40's. It's still work, there are still issues with coworkers and there's still stress compared to the startups I used to work at. The company isn't going to go out of business but you can still get a manager who doesn't communicate well and gives you bad performance reviews as a result. Google turns over more employees in a month than the entire headcount of some of my previous companies. And GOOG is a huge company - if anyone says it's either great or horrible that's probably true for them, but it doesn't mean much for what your experience is going to be. I honestly don't think that being young is really much of an advantage one way or other here - there are successful people in the 40's here, even ICs, there are a lot of new grads who wash out after a year or two and go elsewhere. Big companies have much more idiosyncratic tech stacks so knowing any particular technical skill isn't that huge a deal as we probably don't use it anyway. Know the basics, know how to write, know how to manage up. edit: reading some other comments I think it's easier to be an older IC at big companies than startups/small companies. But whether you should pursue a management track is a completely different question.
- jamesrcole 7y ago
  If anyone else isn’t familiar with ‘IC’, it seems it stands for “individual contributor” (as opposed to a role where you're managing others). Correct me if I’m wrong.
  - sfgweilr4f 7y ago
    [was] IC =worker. [updated] IC = worker with management tendencies but more technical knowledge. [kept] Ok then. Helpful. Corporatespeak is often just jargon creation to exclude others for whatever reason. [edit expansion] Worker who is not manager but has manager skills sufficient to orchestrate as needed to deliver a result in required manner. Knowledge level exceeds expectation normally associated with a classic "pure" manager.
    - jeffshek 7y ago
      Not quite, the term IC also comes with connotation you don’t want to be a manager track. Many software engineers (including myself) much prefer the IC route.
rb808 7y ago
I'm in a similar position. I think if you have experience they really try to interview you for senior positions where you are defining technical architectural standards and teaching others. That makes it tough if you just want to code, but maybe suits you. At least in the initial stages it seems FAANG companies at least are very good at ignoring age for applicants, later stages though are tougher when most people interviewing you are half your age.
rlt 7y ago
I'm not quite as old, but I struggle with this question too. Programming and building shit is my passion, and I'd probably be a terrible manager, but I've been conditioned to believe management is the wise path for aging software engineers.
- noir_lord 7y ago
  Same and same except I have more management than programming time but I enjoy mentoring so that side is fun, if I want to scratch my own itch I have side projects for that when I want. It's a trade-off though, by choice I'd be programming most of the time.
- lanstin 7y ago
  You can build a career as senior IC if you a) refuse to blindly obey, b) make sure your work always benefits people in the organization, c) you keeping learning new things and d) sharing new and old things with a lot of people.
downerending 7y ago
Broadly, you will experience significant ageism trying to come in as a coder/technical type. Probably less of this as a manager. That said, you should do what you want, especially if you have your nut already. Look for an outfit that really needs someone and is willing to look past age (or even sees it as an advantage).
pcurve 7y ago
Your mileage may vary, but I think management role is hard to come by at bigger companies, unless you have a connection with existing management who already work there. So I would hit up your existing connections. Also, you may already know this, but big companies have their own problems. Unlike at smaller companies, these are deep structural or cultural issues you will not be solve. Instead, you have to learn to make the best of it and not let it get to you.
daxfohl 7y ago
Yes, I did exactly this. Stayed a dev, moved to the west coast, got a big pay bump, job stability, and benefits. There are plenty of 40+ devs here. So much of the work at big companies is learning their huge custom domain, don't worry about any particular tech. Only regret is that I absolutely under leveled myself (msft L64), and after a couple years getting dragged through a couple of reorgs, I still feel like promotion is a ways off. Most of my peer group is 10 years younger, and most ICs of my age group are at least two levels up. So wait for an opportunity at the level you think you should be. Don't let imposter syndrome talk you out of it or think you can make it up after you join. But even still, I'm doing way better now than I was back in Michigan working for startups, even accounting for cost of living. Also note the most challenging change for me was getting used to how little control of anything you have is. I really miss being able to basically decide my design and implement it against public well-known technologies. Now so much of it is calling around, trying to figure out how other teams are doing things, coordinating with them, ensuring backward compatibility with a million old things, blah blah blah, it's much slower and less interesting. But, still worth it....I guess. (second-guessing myself now?)
- derwiki 7y ago
  Did you "declare" a target level when you applied?
  - daxfohl 7y ago
    You don't, not directly. At least at msft. But you can figure out what level you think you should be based on your experience, and then work backwards to determine what base salary to ask for, and the levels are fairly tightly coupled to that. And don't let imposter syndrome weaken your resolve on that salary if you're coming from somewhere with way lower baselines. You don't need to be a super hero at any level short of "partner" level. You'll just end up with a lower leveled job than you should.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  >it's much slower and less interesting. But, still worth it....I guess. (second-guessing myself now?) My experience at msft in a nutshell. They pay very well and their name brings prestige, don't forget that when you second guess yourself!
yodsanklai 7y ago
Same age, I recently interviewed at two FAANG companies. Mostly algorithms and system design interviews. I thought I did pretty well (something like 3 very good interviews, 1 good, and 1 ok). In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Also, I found the interview process pretty random and arbitrary. One company praised my algorithmic skills, while the other said that I did very well on system design). They encouraged me to re-apply. I'm not concerned about the actual job, I don't feel less capable than my 30 year old self. I'm more knowledgeable, and I have more experience with human interactions. The interviewers all told me that you don't have to be a manager if you don't want to, and that good developers were always valued, regardless of their age. I don't know how much of this is true though. I can't help thinking that my age had played against me in the final decision. The interview process is a pain. It's very random, it takes a lot of time preparing (some people literally spend months working full time). The things they ask you have very little value besides getting you a job. At least, it's kind of fun to work on these leetcode problems, but after 200 hundred variations of BST and dynamic programming exercices it starts to get old. Also, if you already have a demanding job (and maybe a family), it's hard to find the time to practice. If you spend enough time preparing AND if you aren't stressed out during the actual interview, I think you can pass with reasonable probability the algorithm interviews. I found system designs a little more random. My question wasn't in the "syllabus" they provided me. Also, as an older programmer, there may be many things that you knew a few years back. You're disadvantaged compared to a younger graduate.
- southphillyman 7y ago
  >In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Can you elaborate on this? Were you interviewing specifically for L5 roles? I wonder if years of experience or even achievements can be used against a candidate by raising the bar so to speak. Maybe one is a L5 at their current company but only a L4 elsewhere. As long as you can contribute at whatever level is appropriate for the given company I don't think it should be held against the candidate.
sulam 7y ago
I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager for any large tech company without having first been a manager in another role. I would also not recommend doing this for small startups, but some may be willing to hire you into such a role without you being able to point to concrete experience in the role (the filters aren't as strong). I say this because that is personally a cardinal rule of mine, and I've never heard anyone contradict it -- hiring a manager comes with inherent risk, and you significantly add to that risk by hiring someone that hasn't done it before. If you want to try out management, you should first get a job as an individual contributor somewhere and then move into a management job in that company. They will know a lot more about you from having worked with you and you will know a lot more about the team, the company, etc and have a much higher chance of being successful. This is really a two-way street, you are much more likely to be successful this way as well. The interview process is simply too artificial to get a good read on how someone will do as a manager when they don't have previous experience.
- lostdog 7y ago
  > I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager...without having first been a manager in another role. This is my experience too. Companies don't like hiring managers without at least a little experience, and often are resistant to hiring first level managers at all. Instead, they look for "senior IC, but manager material" candidates, and extend an IC offer with a loose expectation of becoming a manager in a year or so. It's not an explicit role you can apply for, but you can target it by applying for an IC role and keeping any leadership and team-focused experience visible on your resume and during your interviews. As I get older, this is the bucket I tend to get put in during interviews, and then after joining I decide if I want to be a manager this time around.
- syndacks 7y ago
  What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager? Prev FAANG management experience? Prev FAANG IC role? Cursory LinkedIn searches show many FAANG engineering managers were promoted from within or came from a similar position at a similar company. FWIW I've been both an IC before and have steadily moved to CTO at my current startup. I come from a non traditional background (non CS) but had several leadership roles there. Thanks.
braythwayt 7y ago
Anybody in their 40s or older has valuable experience above and beyond ephemeral value of “Hitting the ground running with Cabbage and Sprouts containerized with Cuper9s using ES2020 and JSxyz.” One way to deliver that experience is in delivery management, that is, being responsible for teams that ship stuff. Another way to deliver that experience is in people management. Not all companies equate this with the previous responsibility. A third way in in a more nebulous “leadership” role that doesn’t have “manager” in the title, e.g. “Architect,” or “Principal Engineer.” The latter is tricky, but can be a very good opportunity. My 2c on being in engineering leadership is that it’s best to think of yourself as a manger without authority, rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority. - - - FWIW, I am 57 and a Principal Engineer with PagerDuty.
- o_____________o 7y ago
  > it’s best to think of yourself as a manger without authority, rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority That's great, and resonates
  - vikasg 7y ago
    Andy Grove talks about this in "High Output Management". He says there are two kinds of managers, "know-how" managers and "position" managers. Both have a certain amount of authority, and a successful technology company needs both. If you're a senior enough person who doesn't want to manage people, you should think of yourself as a "know-how" (knowledge, experience) manager and find a role that allows for that.
  - alexgartrell 7y ago
    It's also been my experience as an engineering manager that it's best to think of yourself as a manager without authority.
- dfsegoat 7y ago
  > "A third way in in a more nebulous “leadership” role that doesn’t have “manager” in the title, e.g. “Architect,” or “Principal Engineer.” As a technical lead (getting into my 40s soon) I try to think of myself as an chief enabler / support net: Let the team figure out implementation, support them as they go where they get out of their depth - and protect them from DIRECT trickle down BS/interruptions from management or clients. This has worked pretty well for me thus far, but I've really got no idea if this is a solid approach or way of thinking. I'm curious to know anyones thoughts?
Diederich 7y ago
I started at my second 'FAANG' company when I was 48, two years ago, and it's been great. The previous 'FAANG' company was less great, but still fairly ok. In between and before those, I have worked at two startups and three other in-between (in size) organizations, as well as two non-tech giants, over the course of about 27 years now. Kind of takes my breath away seeing that last number! As others here have noted, no matter where you work, one of the most important things is your manager. I've had good managers and bad managers, and my less happy time at the previous 'FAANG' was largely due to a bad manager. Having said that, the department/group you're in is also important. I had a great manager at one of the large (but not giant) companies but the department had big problems. It was a relatively comfortable but in the end unproductive couple of years. (And also why I decided to move on relatively quickly.) Re: skills to brush up on: honestly, I suggest just start interviewing heavily and use that as a template to figure out what you need to learn. The big tech companies have the luxury of having tons of talented, qualified people trying to work there, and so structure the interviewing process to be biased toward turning away qualified people rather than accepting unqualified people. That means that the interview process can be pretty strenuous. Re: trying for management: I was a manager briefly, early on in my career, and decided that I was never going to do that again. I was relatively good at it, but I didn't like it, so all of my roles have been technical, though of course a lot of the best things I've accomplished involved large quantities of 'soft', non-technical people work. Re: fed up with uncertainty. Yup, I totally get that, and it's the main reason I haven't done more with startups. I value my personal/family time too much, and always have. Feel free to contact me directly: diederich@gmail.com Best of luck.
lvspiff 7y ago
As a senior manager of a development team at a Fortune 10 company that consists of many members who are in their 40's or older one of the things I'm looking at during the interview process is their ability to logic and reason. That ability alone seems to be so much stronger just due to living the ups and downs. Displaying this, focusing on this, is by far one of those things that makes you stand out. One of the biggest pitfalls of ICs regardless of age (but I see it more as some get older) is the inability to break free from the past. If you cant learn, or refuse to accept, anything new have no use for you. Tech is changing constantly and if you can't tout something you are looking forward to and just constantly looking back on that one project you did and using that same method/tool/tech it really makes it difficult to envision. There are IC roles that are "lead" but not management which our company calls "Principal" consultants - that seems to be the latest term in the industry that everyone is going with to denote someone at a high level of expertise who contributes at somewhat of a manager level but not necessarily of people just of projects but is still more of an IC than a project manager.
southphillyman 7y ago
Not in my 40s yet but I'm in a similar position. I'm going to take some time off and prep for FAANG interviews. The benefit of the algo focused interview is it seems like there would be less ageism there as less of the criteria is based on behavior or fit type questions. Maybe I'm off here but that's what it appears like. I recently attended a Google recruiting event where a lot of the Googlers there were over 40 and recently joined the company, a couple of people even looked to be over 50.
tom_b 7y ago
YMMV, but in my non-FAANG experience in the mid-/south- eastern US, tech managers seem to make at least 1.25X for X=senior dev salary. Maybe keep that in mind? My dev friends over the last 10+ years have included people who made a management/dev track career decision and anecdotally speaking, those who chose management have earned more and seemed to have more employment stability. In a couple of cases, I have friends in my personal network earning 3X a senior dev salary managing dev teams. Personally, I decided to stick with the dev track and have been somewhat dismayed to find (after 10+years with one employer) that I am often pulled into decision/management-type situations but am consistently evaluated as a lower-level employee because "coder." It's even more annoying when I chat with my peer group who made the mgmt track choice and I find that the overlap between what I do and they do is actually very large.
- Aperocky 7y ago
  > my non-FAANG experience I think this is highly relevant. Traditional companies have a historically inherited structure where the talents to 'do things' are relatively easy to come by, allowing management to accrue larger influences and hence compensation with the organization. The practice has a lot of momentum as you would hire the same managers even for a software business, they'd come from one of these places. The growth of FAANG and other new tech companies threatens to end this by driving up the scarcity of engineering talents, while creating an entirely new management class that used to be engineers. While they do make more than most engineers in those companies, they take on highly technical decisions that management in traditional industry mostly refrain (drive & initiate vs select from n things).
sjg007 7y ago
Sure go for it. Pick one company and apply as a manager or lead and pick another and apply as an IC. Decide what you want to do. Tailor your resume for that role.
robdimarco 7y ago
I have very similar experience. I'm 42, spent most of my career in startups / small companies in CTO-level positions, but last year took an engineering position in big tech (at one of the companies you mention). My suggestion for someone with a lot of experience is to focus more on networking your way in to the company than on skills brush up. Find contacts at the company(s) you are interested in and try to set up direct meetings (in person, video conference) to find out more about positions, responsibilities, etc. at that particular company. Each company has their own unique philosophies and growth paths for individual contributors vs. eng. managers, so I don't know that there would be one generic piece of advice to follow. Feel free to reach out to me at <username> @ gmail if you would like to talk more specifics.
- Rickasaurus 7y ago
  As someone in a CTO position now but being a serious IC ~5 years ago, I'm curious. How was the transition back for you? I love my job, but I also miss it.
  - robdimarco 7y ago
    So far (been about 9 months), I like being an IC a lot. I still get to be a leader and mentor, but have a lot less paperwork to fill out come review time! I always enjoyed the coding part of the startup CTO job more than the manager part anyhow. I feel that if I ever want to get back in to management, either at my current employer or somewhere else, I'll be able to make that transition pretty easily. But if I go full-time manager, I don't know how easy it would be to flip back to dev / IC.
ping_pong 7y ago
Not an issue. I'm older than you by a few years and I'm looking for a new job. I have 5 onsites lined up with more to come. Age hasn't been an issue except for expectations at places like Google that want to interview and hire me at L6+ level which I know I'm not good enough for, hence why I was never hired. Otherwise I'm not concerned... yet. I am an IC so I make sure my code is top notch, which means I need to LC for weeks before I'm ready for the onsites.
powowow 7y ago
I'm a Sr Manager at a FAANG company (and I started here in my 40s). My direct reports include other SDMs, senior product managers, and staff/principal engineers. You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly. Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones (mentorship, communication, process orientation), and then transition to SDM after a few years. If you've mostly been an engineer, then you may want to learn more about what's expected from different levels of engineer so you can determine, realistically, where your experience will be sufficient, and where there will be gap.
- ryandrake 7y ago
  > You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly. This is very true. No company I’ve interviewed with so far was willing to hire a manager who hasn’t previously managed people. > Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that straightforward. Usually, even internal management roles are set aside for people who have already managed people before. So, you’ll take the time to be an outstanding IC, develop credibility with the team and good communication skills, focus on process building... then finally the workload grows to the point where you need more than yourself and you think “now is my chance!” You go to your manager and propose to hire a few people under you and SURPRISE he already hired an experienced manager who will have three reports including you! Bummer!
  - fatnoah 7y ago
    >I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that straightforward. I'm currently at a FAANG and it is that straightforward. You don't just say, "hey, I should have people under me" but you do say that you're interested in managing folks some day. The company even offers a specific development track and training for people that want to do that. That's also how I got into management at a non-FAANG company. I was hired as an IC, but indicated that my desire was to be a manager. I eventually became a VP. Obviously every place is different, but you do need to make your desires known.
deleted 7y ago
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danellis 7y ago
I don't think age really has much to do with it. Apart from having more experience, joining somewhere in your 40s is pretty much like joining somewhere in your 30s. If you want to code, code. If you want to manage, manage. But don't decide based on age. 42 at MS
sbussard 7y ago
Ageism is out in SV, because the biggest perpetrators grew up. Plus experience is worth a lot of money. If you're young or old, don't listen to those who say you can't do something. It's just one more form of resistance that successful people have to plow through.
- scottlegrand2 7y ago
  I'm going to disagree. Yes, the biggest perpetrators aged. But in my experience it became more "50 is the new 40" than it went away.
- fatnoah 7y ago
  I think it's even more than that. I've seen a few companies where "people over 40" are an underrepresented group worthy of specific recruiting.
huangc10 7y ago
I hate these questions because it honestly puts me off when I think about my future. It makes me scared of being old. 43 isn't even that old (isn't retiring age 65...?) and you seem to be confused what your profession is. I don't want to be in that position. If you're 43, you should know what you want to do. If you want to code, go for a senior/principal programming lead position. If you want to manage, go for a managerial position. You're asking a question a 20 yr old should be asking which makes me extremely worried what the future has in store for me. I hope that when I turn 40 in 2029, I could still do what I love (which happens to be in programming), and not have to fret if I need to change professions or not...this is the way. *Edit, I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but this is really what I feel. I hope when millennials like me start to hit 40, we can change the tech industry's age distribution and we no longer have to worry about problems like this.
- tra3 7y ago
  As you get older you'll realize that "adults" don't know any better than you do. Consider that moving forward. Nobody has all the right answers, and even fewer people know what the right answer is for you. I'm reminded of this quote by Baz Luhrmann: > The most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still don’t. Incidentally, I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've done coding, I've done the management gig, not sure what life has for me in store in the next 5-10 years.
  - daxfohl 7y ago
    PG has one too (I think; a quick search can't find it) but there is a perspective change: "At age 20 if you're not doing bad you fell good. At age 50 if you're not doing well you feel bad." I find that to be true, causes you to question a lot of what you've done in your past, and what you're doing in your future with the limited time you have left.
  - killjoywashere 7y ago
    My dad will be 75 in a little over a week. I told him I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up (I'm 43). He said he still didn't know.
streetcat1 7y ago
So you should separate tech companies, from companies that use tech. Tech companies really care about your tech skills (assuming that you do not want to go to the manage route), so age should not be an issue. However, skills might be an issue. I.e. if you spent your career in companies that use tech, you might not have deep specialization. Companies that use tech, are easier, which tends to bring less experienced developers, which usually are younger and might create ageism.
rc_kas 7y ago
what does it matter? global warming going to send us into an apocalypse in 2-3 years anyways.
nameseemslegit 7y ago
I joined a FAANG company when I was about 40 years old around just a couple of years ago coming from a sequence of startups and smaller companies. I think the biggest adjustment to make is the performance review systems. At these big companies performance is not about doing right things, but about fitting in with insular expectations. The senior folks who you would hope could mentor you may have no idea that you don't "get it" or what kind of feedback it requires to make the transition. In contrast, a lot of feedback you get at smaller companies is to just focus on doing right things for the business and not worry about any defined expectations. I have seen some people make the transition smoothly... others not so much.
unoti 7y ago
I was 47 when I joined Microsoft and am currently a principal engineer working as an individual contributor doing engineering work. Before that I was running my own startup for several years. There are jobs available in everything imaginable including product management, engineering, management, and blends of those three. The age thing wasn’t a problem for me interviewing for an engineering position. However, I had some difficult engineering interviews with senior and principal engineers. You should prepare hard to interview very well. The hardest part is convincing young senior engineers that you’re as good of a develop as they are or better.
jlg23 7y ago
It basically boils down to: what are you more comfortable with? If it is management, go for it. If it is coding, be open about your expectations and go with a company that values your experience while accepting that you're there 9 to 5.
cmsonger 7y ago
I joined Google at the age of 50. Just send a resume. They are not trying to surprise you and want you to do your best. Consequently, not only do they tell you what to expect from the interview process, the recruiter will send you a PDF that talks through what to expect along with a reading list you can use to prepare. (For example: cracking the coding interview and CLRS are on it.) That said, I just went in cold. If you've been coding and are current in one of the 3 big interview languages (C++/Java/Python), and if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you need to know. Side note: A thing that no one told me but that I had to figure out on my own is that your technical writing skills are one of the most important skills to doing well at google. It was unironically said to me that the highest reward/effort one can do at Google is to write documents. The person who said it was correct about that IMO.
- decebalus1 7y ago
  You advice is sound but incomplete. > if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you need to know speaking from experience, this would not get you nowhere near the level you have to be for passing the Google interview (or any other FAANG interview for that matter). You need to study long and hard in addition to solving OJ problems and familiarize yourself with different problem patterns. Let me give you and example of what I got at Google: https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/ https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/ Solving this problem optimally with only what you remember from undergrad algo courses is impossible. You either need to have a knack for these types of challenges or solve enough of them to identify a solution pattern.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - matt-attack 7y ago
    > You must make sure your result is the smallest in lexicographical order among all possible results. Can someone explain this? I can't even parse that sentence.
harel 7y ago
I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing you're in the US. I'm 43 as well, been mostly the startup world for 20+ years - similar journey (worked, founded, etc). After my last startup got sold (not at best terms), I also took the time to relax a bit (and ended up rebooting another business and starting another instead). Anyway, after my timeout I got back into contracting. First of all, I've never encountered ageism and my experience was always appreciated. It could be to do with my attitude, or maybe ageism is not a thing in the UK as it is elsewhere. I think attitude helps and if you come across as a friendly experienced person you will be able to get in. My question to you would be why go for the "Larger" tech companies? Why not focus on established smaller companies? I personally equate those with start-up level stress but less ability to affect things. Again, just my personal perspective. Second point - do try contracting. It's quite liberating not being tied to a place in a long term mental-bond. The market is great for contracts (at least in the UK).
- cutthegrass2 7y ago
  This is a great perspective and resonates a lot for me. Curious though, to hear your thoughts on the incoming off-payroll legislation and how you feel it will effect the UK contracting market.
  - harel 7y ago
    We've just been talking about this yesterday and today in the client's office, where most of us are contractors. It's an agency, most tech staff is on contract, the client is a government body where almost everyone there are contractors because gov pay is low and nobody will take the work on their PAYE rates. Spoke to my accountant who told me this whole IR-35 malarkey is under review at the moment and might or might not happen come April. He made a good point regarding IR-35 "insurances" saying that they are only offered because the chance of being hit by HMRC for that are slim to none which is why they are passing the buck to the clients. The problem is not HMRC vs the Contractor but now HMRC scaring the clients from hiring contractors. Another friend told me his current client wants them all inside IR-35 which means a mass contractor exodus. He also told me banks are cutting the contractors as well. The problem for banks is that a LOT of their tech staff are contractors at high rates. To be perfectly honest, I'm concerned to a degree. Both for contractors like me, and to clients who rely on contractors - come April, if this is not retracted, there will be a mass shortage of hands. Being inside IR-35 is like being PAYE without benefits and PAYE pay is significantly lower than contract one. This is quite a problematic situation.
4ydx 7y ago
I've interviewed and failed often enough (with google) to know it is never going to happen.
czbond 7y ago
I cold applied for an L7 position at "A" recently. Going in, I had fear that I was under qualified. My background is CompSci, Management consulting and leading teams at global 5 companies, startup founder, and other lead positions. I left the L7 interview wholly underwhelmed as I felt I was interviewed by engineers with experience an inch wide, one mile deep. Whereas I like to be a mile wide, 0.8 miles deep. My thoughts "maybe L8" is better didn't set well though... edit: I'm in Denver, and here senior leader positions are not too common.
- sizzle 7y ago
  Very interesting metaphor of the engineering talent you sized up during your interview. Thanks for sharing that. You have an interesting background, would love to learn more about your career trajectory. Do you have a blog where you write more that you don't mind sharing? Feel free to email a link if you're up to it. (email in bio) Thanks!
  - czbond 7y ago
    :) I only create things, not document my stories.
    - sizzle 7y ago
      Time to start writing :)
wonjohnchoi 7y ago
I am still in my 20's and recently switched team. Switching team made me think a lot about what I want to do in my life, and I still haven't been able to figure it out. I was feeling anxious and worried as I felt I am old enough that I should know what I want to do. Reading some of comments in this thread made me realize that many people don't figure out what they want to do, even until 40's, so I feel better that I am not alone in this. I thank you all for sharing your perspectives with career. I will bookmark this page and read this whenever I feel lost with direction of my career.
zelly 7y ago
You should brush up on protocol buffers. Oh and containers. Mostly protocol buffers.
aspectmin 7y ago
Just speaking from my experience. I rejoined Microsoft at 47. Loved it. There are a lot more grey hairs there than during the early days, and nobody cares (in a good way). You’re just part of the team. Go for it. Satya has done amazing things with that company, and in many teams it’s like working for a startup, but with the safety/security of a bigger co. I lasted 3 years and then got the urge to go chase my own thing again (ML/robotics consultancy), but most my friends (well into their 50’s) are still there. Go for it.
vaingloriole 7y ago
If you don't care about dealing with the headaches of enterprise/corporate and know what you are getting into then sure. Not for me. I've tried multiple times after 15 years in various startups (and .edu). The kultur of a large company is a deal breaker. I'd suggest looking into consulting or , if you can do it, find a large company that needs 'SME' and 'Fixer' skills (if you have those). You can then approach work offsite or telework varying your vista on the basis of what project needs your skills. Defense contracting has a lot of this type of work.
cryptozeus 7y ago
All valid points but this is very personal, no one can answer this. This question alone requires you to meditate on your personal preferences. "I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?"
longtimegoogler 7y ago
Depends what you want to do. Are you still passionate about coding? If not they I would suggest management.
dblock 7y ago
I joined AWS 6 months ago at 43 as a principal engineer, transitioning from a CTO role of a Series D company, and wrote about it. https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-going-from-management-back-to-ic.html https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-goin... I would recommend it.
jiveturkey 7y ago
43? you young-uns crack me up. > I can still keep up coding This sounds like you are not confident of your skills. At 43, with 20-ish YOE, if you want to become a SWE IC at FAANG you better be good, and know it. > but should I do that, or try for management? no offense, but you sound like an 18 yo. In all this time at startups, how is it you haven't learned how to make decisions? Sorry if I am being harsh, consider it tough love. :) You might just be coming off in writing as being indecisive and lack confidence, whereas in real life you are solid. Or you might have the humility that only true seniority brings. I can't tell from here. Either way, I don't think this is a question with easy answers that you can get from a forum. You need to do some soul searching. I would first settle the question of whether or not you want to go into management, not whether or not you think FAANG will have you as an IC. There are plenty of books on becoming a manager. Almost all of them suck, but that doesn't matter. You'll get some initial perspective from reading 1 or 2 of them. Assuming you do want to switch tracks to management, I don't know at all how FAANG is at hiring no-experience managers at age 43. Personally, I like to be prepared so my personal plan in that case would be to get a manager job at a startup -- it should be super easy for you. Do that for 2 years max. Quit no matter what after that. (You need to make that your plan and stick to it.) If you like it, apply to FAANG! Note though that being a manager at FAANG is completely different than being one at a startup. But what you're going for is the resume builder as well as the experience of having direct reports. Ideally you'd get a job where you have firing authority. Not that you want to exercise that, but it changes things. Now if you search within and read a couple books and decide IC is what you love, take a month to bone up on core algorithms and then go for it.
Technophilis 7y ago
I have both worked with and interviewed people in their 40s when I worked at a FAANG. Despite what's advertised by HR, culture tends to be org/team-dependent at bigger tech companies. I believe that you should be more concerned about culture fit which is something you can assess during the interview. If you decide to interview for an individual contributor position, I recommend that you brush up on algorithms. You can either target a company on LeetCode or go through a generic list of problems (here is the one I use https://theinterviewlist.com https://theinterviewlist.com)
ehda1122 7y ago
This incredible man from Africa that cast spell is really do a nice job because he just helped me fix matrimonial problems so if you feel you don't have anyone to trust then am teling anyone out there to contact him on his email which is: ezizaoguntemple@gmail. com and whatsapp+2348058228350

441 points by kemiller 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Kirby64 7y ago

That's a pretty broad question, isn't it? Besides your age and that you used to work at startups and dislike the stress, there isn't much to go on for guidance. Who knows if you're suited for management, would be better as a code monkey, or what skills you need to brush up on?

complianceowl 7y ago
Not to be disrespectful, but your response sounds like those arrogant Stack Overflow responses that are simply not helpful. There is enough in his question for anyone to provide a proper answer.
- jimmyvalmer 7y ago
  > Not to be disrespectful It's okay to be disrespectful. It's not okay to preface that disrespect with an overtly false disclaimer.
  - complianceowl 7y ago
    It's actually NOT okay to be disrespectful. Saying someone's response was "arrogant" is not disrespectful; calling them stupid for being arrogant - that would be disrespectful. Perceiving my comment to be disrespectful, I think, is a part of the larger societal problem that exists today; namely, of people being overly-sensative. Friend, I will gently invite you to toughen up.
    - jimmyvalmer 7y ago
      It's precisely because I'm not oversensitive that I see disrespect as a normal and at times productive human response. You can define "disrespect" however you wish. It matters little to the recipient who undoubtedly feels slighted at the "arrogant" characterization.
      - complianceowl 7y ago
        Jimmy, I can only say this man. Your comment history on HN worries me. It's very, very negative, and hear me out. I'm not putting you down, but when there is anger or bitterness in one's heart that hasn't been dealt with, it's easy to only see, or even create, negativity in life. I don't want to argue with you. Just know that you can make a decision to root for others, uplift people with your comments on HN, and sometimes just totally pass up opportunities to argue and move on to a positive comment. Jumping from argument to argument on HN will only create anger and hate in your heart. I could be totally wrong. This is just my opinion. Regardless, I wish you the best man.
        jimmyvalmer 7y ago
        "I'm not putting you down [then puts me down]" You did it again. Please, it's okay to put people down.
- Kirby64 7y ago
  The only question (and it appears to be the majority of the responses here) that looks like you can answer well is if other people have done what he's considering doing. Maybe that's the discussion he's looking for; the comments to that affect are definitely good. The remaining questions regarding coding vs. management or what skills to 'brush up on' are very person-dependent beyond general platitudes. Sure, discussions can be had, but it kind of depends on what he wants.
  - complianceowl 7y ago
    I appreciate the response.

sindaccos 7y ago

in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than technical skill. you need to disclose what was your role in these startups. if you want to go back to coding at FANG there would be less ageism but it will still be there. Be sure to brush up your algo, data structure. I would suggest finishing a book of programming interview and you should be set.

bilekas 7y ago
> in your 40s your big picture management skill would be more valuable than technical skill. I don't like this assumption: Some of the older engineers & architects I know are incredibly more adept at developing than management, and speaking with a lot of them, most are pushed into management roles instead of desiring them.
jbverschoor 7y ago
Big picture yes, but in tech management: Big picture infrastructure Big picture domain knowledge Big picture risk management Big picture release management Big picture languages Big picture frameworks Big picture architecture Big picture maintainability Big picture knowledge sharing Big picture build infrastructure Big picture etc If you have a GOOD senior, you will safe a lot of time on bs, and will make your junior devs shine like rockstars.

wefarrell 7y ago

"I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?" HN can't answer this for you. Which do you prefer?

jawns 7y ago
I think the unspoken question is whether it is more prudent for a person of this age to pursue an individual contributor role or a role in the management track. Take this for what it's worth, but anecdotally I've heard a lot of programmers find that once they hit this age, opportunities as an individual contributor are more limited. So if the goal is to get a stable job at a large tech company, then the question is which track to pursue, and I think the decision process should go like this: Really love coding, really hate management: Apply for IC. Tolerate/enjoy management: Apply for management.
- kemiller 7y ago
  I am a great people manager, but it's subject to the monkey in the middle problem, which I find stressful.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Why not try sliding into project management or product management? It’s not “real” people management since you typically have no direct reports, but these careers allow you to remain technical and I’ve encountered way less ageism here.

bilekas 7y ago

What do you enjoy ? > I am a bit fed up with the stress and uncertainty of startups and looking for something more stable, at least for a while. I think you have answered your own question there for the most part, and I don't think its too much to ask for a bit of stability. Personally, I would advise you take some time to think about what areas & roles you enjoyed the most, as you're looking for something possibly long term, don't make it difficult `WORK`, instead make it something you enjoy. Then you can dedicate your time looking for the projects/companies you really are excited about. Sounds like a dream, but theres no reason why you can't suit yourself! Best of luck! PS: I don't think you should worry about your age, if thats why it was in the title; but if you're like me, over time I lose patience with people who wonthave a genuine discussion & be open to being wrong. But this is a maturity thing that you can asses at interview time I guess.

mikece 7y ago

1. Can you do the job? 2. Are you reliable? 3. Will you, as a human being, negatively affect the team? Those are the things I try to determine when I interview someone.

chasd00 7y ago

i'm at the same spot. I've found the team lead role in the consulting industry to be enjoyable. I mentor junior devs (whole career mentoring in addition to technical mentoring) and try to setup Sr. devs to do their best work. I still get to write code and scratch that itch too. Consulting is nice because projects/customers come and go so every few months you're on to something different. Of course, consulting has down sides too but i seem to have a knack for it.

guyzero 7y ago

I was 37 when I joined Google in a senior IC role in 2008, so nearly my entire 40's. It's still work, there are still issues with coworkers and there's still stress compared to the startups I used to work at. The company isn't going to go out of business but you can still get a manager who doesn't communicate well and gives you bad performance reviews as a result. Google turns over more employees in a month than the entire headcount of some of my previous companies. And GOOG is a huge company - if anyone says it's either great or horrible that's probably true for them, but it doesn't mean much for what your experience is going to be. I honestly don't think that being young is really much of an advantage one way or other here - there are successful people in the 40's here, even ICs, there are a lot of new grads who wash out after a year or two and go elsewhere. Big companies have much more idiosyncratic tech stacks so knowing any particular technical skill isn't that huge a deal as we probably don't use it anyway. Know the basics, know how to write, know how to manage up. edit: reading some other comments I think it's easier to be an older IC at big companies than startups/small companies. But whether you should pursue a management track is a completely different question.

jamesrcole 7y ago
If anyone else isn’t familiar with ‘IC’, it seems it stands for “individual contributor” (as opposed to a role where you're managing others). Correct me if I’m wrong.
- sfgweilr4f 7y ago
  [was] IC =worker. [updated] IC = worker with management tendencies but more technical knowledge. [kept] Ok then. Helpful. Corporatespeak is often just jargon creation to exclude others for whatever reason. [edit expansion] Worker who is not manager but has manager skills sufficient to orchestrate as needed to deliver a result in required manner. Knowledge level exceeds expectation normally associated with a classic "pure" manager.
  - jeffshek 7y ago
    Not quite, the term IC also comes with connotation you don’t want to be a manager track. Many software engineers (including myself) much prefer the IC route.

rb808 7y ago

I'm in a similar position. I think if you have experience they really try to interview you for senior positions where you are defining technical architectural standards and teaching others. That makes it tough if you just want to code, but maybe suits you. At least in the initial stages it seems FAANG companies at least are very good at ignoring age for applicants, later stages though are tougher when most people interviewing you are half your age.

rlt 7y ago

I'm not quite as old, but I struggle with this question too. Programming and building shit is my passion, and I'd probably be a terrible manager, but I've been conditioned to believe management is the wise path for aging software engineers.

noir_lord 7y ago
Same and same except I have more management than programming time but I enjoy mentoring so that side is fun, if I want to scratch my own itch I have side projects for that when I want. It's a trade-off though, by choice I'd be programming most of the time.
lanstin 7y ago
You can build a career as senior IC if you a) refuse to blindly obey, b) make sure your work always benefits people in the organization, c) you keeping learning new things and d) sharing new and old things with a lot of people.

downerending 7y ago

Broadly, you will experience significant ageism trying to come in as a coder/technical type. Probably less of this as a manager. That said, you should do what you want, especially if you have your nut already. Look for an outfit that really needs someone and is willing to look past age (or even sees it as an advantage).

pcurve 7y ago

Your mileage may vary, but I think management role is hard to come by at bigger companies, unless you have a connection with existing management who already work there. So I would hit up your existing connections. Also, you may already know this, but big companies have their own problems. Unlike at smaller companies, these are deep structural or cultural issues you will not be solve. Instead, you have to learn to make the best of it and not let it get to you.

daxfohl 7y ago

Yes, I did exactly this. Stayed a dev, moved to the west coast, got a big pay bump, job stability, and benefits. There are plenty of 40+ devs here. So much of the work at big companies is learning their huge custom domain, don't worry about any particular tech. Only regret is that I absolutely under leveled myself (msft L64), and after a couple years getting dragged through a couple of reorgs, I still feel like promotion is a ways off. Most of my peer group is 10 years younger, and most ICs of my age group are at least two levels up. So wait for an opportunity at the level you think you should be. Don't let imposter syndrome talk you out of it or think you can make it up after you join. But even still, I'm doing way better now than I was back in Michigan working for startups, even accounting for cost of living. Also note the most challenging change for me was getting used to how little control of anything you have is. I really miss being able to basically decide my design and implement it against public well-known technologies. Now so much of it is calling around, trying to figure out how other teams are doing things, coordinating with them, ensuring backward compatibility with a million old things, blah blah blah, it's much slower and less interesting. But, still worth it....I guess. (second-guessing myself now?)

derwiki 7y ago
Did you "declare" a target level when you applied?
- daxfohl 7y ago
  You don't, not directly. At least at msft. But you can figure out what level you think you should be based on your experience, and then work backwards to determine what base salary to ask for, and the levels are fairly tightly coupled to that. And don't let imposter syndrome weaken your resolve on that salary if you're coming from somewhere with way lower baselines. You don't need to be a super hero at any level short of "partner" level. You'll just end up with a lower leveled job than you should.
o-__-o 7y ago
>it's much slower and less interesting. But, still worth it....I guess. (second-guessing myself now?) My experience at msft in a nutshell. They pay very well and their name brings prestige, don't forget that when you second guess yourself!

yodsanklai 7y ago

Same age, I recently interviewed at two FAANG companies. Mostly algorithms and system design interviews. I thought I did pretty well (something like 3 very good interviews, 1 good, and 1 ok). In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Also, I found the interview process pretty random and arbitrary. One company praised my algorithmic skills, while the other said that I did very well on system design). They encouraged me to re-apply. I'm not concerned about the actual job, I don't feel less capable than my 30 year old self. I'm more knowledgeable, and I have more experience with human interactions. The interviewers all told me that you don't have to be a manager if you don't want to, and that good developers were always valued, regardless of their age. I don't know how much of this is true though. I can't help thinking that my age had played against me in the final decision. The interview process is a pain. It's very random, it takes a lot of time preparing (some people literally spend months working full time). The things they ask you have very little value besides getting you a job. At least, it's kind of fun to work on these leetcode problems, but after 200 hundred variations of BST and dynamic programming exercices it starts to get old. Also, if you already have a demanding job (and maybe a family), it's hard to find the time to practice. If you spend enough time preparing AND if you aren't stressed out during the actual interview, I think you can pass with reasonable probability the algorithm interviews. I found system designs a little more random. My question wasn't in the "syllabus" they provided me. Also, as an older programmer, there may be many things that you knew a few years back. You're disadvantaged compared to a younger graduate.

southphillyman 7y ago
>In both cases, the conclusion was that my results were good enough for an L4 position, but they wouldn't hire me for less than L5. (Why not, I'd be happy as an L4...). Can you elaborate on this? Were you interviewing specifically for L5 roles? I wonder if years of experience or even achievements can be used against a candidate by raising the bar so to speak. Maybe one is a L5 at their current company but only a L4 elsewhere. As long as you can contribute at whatever level is appropriate for the given company I don't think it should be held against the candidate.

sulam 7y ago

I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager for any large tech company without having first been a manager in another role. I would also not recommend doing this for small startups, but some may be willing to hire you into such a role without you being able to point to concrete experience in the role (the filters aren't as strong). I say this because that is personally a cardinal rule of mine, and I've never heard anyone contradict it -- hiring a manager comes with inherent risk, and you significantly add to that risk by hiring someone that hasn't done it before. If you want to try out management, you should first get a job as an individual contributor somewhere and then move into a management job in that company. They will know a lot more about you from having worked with you and you will know a lot more about the team, the company, etc and have a much higher chance of being successful. This is really a two-way street, you are much more likely to be successful this way as well. The interview process is simply too artificial to get a good read on how someone will do as a manager when they don't have previous experience.

lostdog 7y ago
> I would not recommend trying to interview as a manager...without having first been a manager in another role. This is my experience too. Companies don't like hiring managers without at least a little experience, and often are resistant to hiring first level managers at all. Instead, they look for "senior IC, but manager material" candidates, and extend an IC offer with a loose expectation of becoming a manager in a year or so. It's not an explicit role you can apply for, but you can target it by applying for an IC role and keeping any leadership and team-focused experience visible on your resume and during your interviews. As I get older, this is the bucket I tend to get put in during interviews, and then after joining I decide if I want to be a manager this time around.
syndacks 7y ago
What's the bar for being hired as a FAANG engineering manager? Prev FAANG management experience? Prev FAANG IC role? Cursory LinkedIn searches show many FAANG engineering managers were promoted from within or came from a similar position at a similar company. FWIW I've been both an IC before and have steadily moved to CTO at my current startup. I come from a non traditional background (non CS) but had several leadership roles there. Thanks.

braythwayt 7y ago

Anybody in their 40s or older has valuable experience above and beyond ephemeral value of “Hitting the ground running with Cabbage and Sprouts containerized with Cuper9s using ES2020 and JSxyz.” One way to deliver that experience is in delivery management, that is, being responsible for teams that ship stuff. Another way to deliver that experience is in people management. Not all companies equate this with the previous responsibility. A third way in in a more nebulous “leadership” role that doesn’t have “manager” in the title, e.g. “Architect,” or “Principal Engineer.” The latter is tricky, but can be a very good opportunity. My 2c on being in engineering leadership is that it’s best to think of yourself as a manger without authority, rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority. - - - FWIW, I am 57 and a Principal Engineer with PagerDuty.

o_____________o 7y ago
> it’s best to think of yourself as a manger without authority, rather than thinking of yourself as an engineer with authority That's great, and resonates
- vikasg 7y ago
  Andy Grove talks about this in "High Output Management". He says there are two kinds of managers, "know-how" managers and "position" managers. Both have a certain amount of authority, and a successful technology company needs both. If you're a senior enough person who doesn't want to manage people, you should think of yourself as a "know-how" (knowledge, experience) manager and find a role that allows for that.
- alexgartrell 7y ago
  It's also been my experience as an engineering manager that it's best to think of yourself as a manager without authority.
dfsegoat 7y ago
> "A third way in in a more nebulous “leadership” role that doesn’t have “manager” in the title, e.g. “Architect,” or “Principal Engineer.” As a technical lead (getting into my 40s soon) I try to think of myself as an chief enabler / support net: Let the team figure out implementation, support them as they go where they get out of their depth - and protect them from DIRECT trickle down BS/interruptions from management or clients. This has worked pretty well for me thus far, but I've really got no idea if this is a solid approach or way of thinking. I'm curious to know anyones thoughts?

Diederich 7y ago

I started at my second 'FAANG' company when I was 48, two years ago, and it's been great. The previous 'FAANG' company was less great, but still fairly ok. In between and before those, I have worked at two startups and three other in-between (in size) organizations, as well as two non-tech giants, over the course of about 27 years now. Kind of takes my breath away seeing that last number! As others here have noted, no matter where you work, one of the most important things is your manager. I've had good managers and bad managers, and my less happy time at the previous 'FAANG' was largely due to a bad manager. Having said that, the department/group you're in is also important. I had a great manager at one of the large (but not giant) companies but the department had big problems. It was a relatively comfortable but in the end unproductive couple of years. (And also why I decided to move on relatively quickly.) Re: skills to brush up on: honestly, I suggest just start interviewing heavily and use that as a template to figure out what you need to learn. The big tech companies have the luxury of having tons of talented, qualified people trying to work there, and so structure the interviewing process to be biased toward turning away qualified people rather than accepting unqualified people. That means that the interview process can be pretty strenuous. Re: trying for management: I was a manager briefly, early on in my career, and decided that I was never going to do that again. I was relatively good at it, but I didn't like it, so all of my roles have been technical, though of course a lot of the best things I've accomplished involved large quantities of 'soft', non-technical people work. Re: fed up with uncertainty. Yup, I totally get that, and it's the main reason I haven't done more with startups. I value my personal/family time too much, and always have. Feel free to contact me directly: diederich@gmail.com Best of luck.

lvspiff 7y ago

As a senior manager of a development team at a Fortune 10 company that consists of many members who are in their 40's or older one of the things I'm looking at during the interview process is their ability to logic and reason. That ability alone seems to be so much stronger just due to living the ups and downs. Displaying this, focusing on this, is by far one of those things that makes you stand out. One of the biggest pitfalls of ICs regardless of age (but I see it more as some get older) is the inability to break free from the past. If you cant learn, or refuse to accept, anything new have no use for you. Tech is changing constantly and if you can't tout something you are looking forward to and just constantly looking back on that one project you did and using that same method/tool/tech it really makes it difficult to envision. There are IC roles that are "lead" but not management which our company calls "Principal" consultants - that seems to be the latest term in the industry that everyone is going with to denote someone at a high level of expertise who contributes at somewhat of a manager level but not necessarily of people just of projects but is still more of an IC than a project manager.

southphillyman 7y ago

Not in my 40s yet but I'm in a similar position. I'm going to take some time off and prep for FAANG interviews. The benefit of the algo focused interview is it seems like there would be less ageism there as less of the criteria is based on behavior or fit type questions. Maybe I'm off here but that's what it appears like. I recently attended a Google recruiting event where a lot of the Googlers there were over 40 and recently joined the company, a couple of people even looked to be over 50.

tom_b 7y ago

YMMV, but in my non-FAANG experience in the mid-/south- eastern US, tech managers seem to make at least 1.25X for X=senior dev salary. Maybe keep that in mind? My dev friends over the last 10+ years have included people who made a management/dev track career decision and anecdotally speaking, those who chose management have earned more and seemed to have more employment stability. In a couple of cases, I have friends in my personal network earning 3X a senior dev salary managing dev teams. Personally, I decided to stick with the dev track and have been somewhat dismayed to find (after 10+years with one employer) that I am often pulled into decision/management-type situations but am consistently evaluated as a lower-level employee because "coder." It's even more annoying when I chat with my peer group who made the mgmt track choice and I find that the overlap between what I do and they do is actually very large.

Aperocky 7y ago
> my non-FAANG experience I think this is highly relevant. Traditional companies have a historically inherited structure where the talents to 'do things' are relatively easy to come by, allowing management to accrue larger influences and hence compensation with the organization. The practice has a lot of momentum as you would hire the same managers even for a software business, they'd come from one of these places. The growth of FAANG and other new tech companies threatens to end this by driving up the scarcity of engineering talents, while creating an entirely new management class that used to be engineers. While they do make more than most engineers in those companies, they take on highly technical decisions that management in traditional industry mostly refrain (drive & initiate vs select from n things).

sjg007 7y ago

Sure go for it. Pick one company and apply as a manager or lead and pick another and apply as an IC. Decide what you want to do. Tailor your resume for that role.

robdimarco 7y ago

I have very similar experience. I'm 42, spent most of my career in startups / small companies in CTO-level positions, but last year took an engineering position in big tech (at one of the companies you mention). My suggestion for someone with a lot of experience is to focus more on networking your way in to the company than on skills brush up. Find contacts at the company(s) you are interested in and try to set up direct meetings (in person, video conference) to find out more about positions, responsibilities, etc. at that particular company. Each company has their own unique philosophies and growth paths for individual contributors vs. eng. managers, so I don't know that there would be one generic piece of advice to follow. Feel free to reach out to me at <username> @ gmail if you would like to talk more specifics.

Rickasaurus 7y ago
As someone in a CTO position now but being a serious IC ~5 years ago, I'm curious. How was the transition back for you? I love my job, but I also miss it.
- robdimarco 7y ago
  So far (been about 9 months), I like being an IC a lot. I still get to be a leader and mentor, but have a lot less paperwork to fill out come review time! I always enjoyed the coding part of the startup CTO job more than the manager part anyhow. I feel that if I ever want to get back in to management, either at my current employer or somewhere else, I'll be able to make that transition pretty easily. But if I go full-time manager, I don't know how easy it would be to flip back to dev / IC.

ping_pong 7y ago

Not an issue. I'm older than you by a few years and I'm looking for a new job. I have 5 onsites lined up with more to come. Age hasn't been an issue except for expectations at places like Google that want to interview and hire me at L6+ level which I know I'm not good enough for, hence why I was never hired. Otherwise I'm not concerned... yet. I am an IC so I make sure my code is top notch, which means I need to LC for weeks before I'm ready for the onsites.

powowow 7y ago

I'm a Sr Manager at a FAANG company (and I started here in my 40s). My direct reports include other SDMs, senior product managers, and staff/principal engineers. You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly. Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones (mentorship, communication, process orientation), and then transition to SDM after a few years. If you've mostly been an engineer, then you may want to learn more about what's expected from different levels of engineer so you can determine, realistically, where your experience will be sufficient, and where there will be gap.

ryandrake 7y ago
> You mention "trying" for management. If you haven't previously managed people, then you probably won't be able to get a good SDM role directly. This is very true. No company I’ve interviewed with so far was willing to hire a manager who hasn’t previously managed people. > Instead, your best path would be to be hired as an SDE, demonstrate strong managerial bones I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that straightforward. Usually, even internal management roles are set aside for people who have already managed people before. So, you’ll take the time to be an outstanding IC, develop credibility with the team and good communication skills, focus on process building... then finally the workload grows to the point where you need more than yourself and you think “now is my chance!” You go to your manager and propose to hire a few people under you and SURPRISE he already hired an experienced manager who will have three reports including you! Bummer!
- fatnoah 7y ago
  >I’ve tried this strategy a number of times and I wish it was that straightforward. I'm currently at a FAANG and it is that straightforward. You don't just say, "hey, I should have people under me" but you do say that you're interested in managing folks some day. The company even offers a specific development track and training for people that want to do that. That's also how I got into management at a non-FAANG company. I was hired as an IC, but indicated that my desire was to be a manager. I eventually became a VP. Obviously every place is different, but you do need to make your desires known.

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danellis 7y ago

I don't think age really has much to do with it. Apart from having more experience, joining somewhere in your 40s is pretty much like joining somewhere in your 30s. If you want to code, code. If you want to manage, manage. But don't decide based on age. 42 at MS

sbussard 7y ago

Ageism is out in SV, because the biggest perpetrators grew up. Plus experience is worth a lot of money. If you're young or old, don't listen to those who say you can't do something. It's just one more form of resistance that successful people have to plow through.

scottlegrand2 7y ago
I'm going to disagree. Yes, the biggest perpetrators aged. But in my experience it became more "50 is the new 40" than it went away.
fatnoah 7y ago
I think it's even more than that. I've seen a few companies where "people over 40" are an underrepresented group worthy of specific recruiting.

huangc10 7y ago

I hate these questions because it honestly puts me off when I think about my future. It makes me scared of being old. 43 isn't even that old (isn't retiring age 65...?) and you seem to be confused what your profession is. I don't want to be in that position. If you're 43, you should know what you want to do. If you want to code, go for a senior/principal programming lead position. If you want to manage, go for a managerial position. You're asking a question a 20 yr old should be asking which makes me extremely worried what the future has in store for me. I hope that when I turn 40 in 2029, I could still do what I love (which happens to be in programming), and not have to fret if I need to change professions or not...this is the way. *Edit, I hope I don't sound like a jerk, but this is really what I feel. I hope when millennials like me start to hit 40, we can change the tech industry's age distribution and we no longer have to worry about problems like this.

tra3 7y ago
As you get older you'll realize that "adults" don't know any better than you do. Consider that moving forward. Nobody has all the right answers, and even fewer people know what the right answer is for you. I'm reminded of this quote by Baz Luhrmann: > The most interesting people I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still don’t. Incidentally, I'm in the same boat as the OP. I've done coding, I've done the management gig, not sure what life has for me in store in the next 5-10 years.
- daxfohl 7y ago
  PG has one too (I think; a quick search can't find it) but there is a perspective change: "At age 20 if you're not doing bad you fell good. At age 50 if you're not doing well you feel bad." I find that to be true, causes you to question a lot of what you've done in your past, and what you're doing in your future with the limited time you have left.
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  My dad will be 75 in a little over a week. I told him I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up (I'm 43). He said he still didn't know.

streetcat1 7y ago

So you should separate tech companies, from companies that use tech. Tech companies really care about your tech skills (assuming that you do not want to go to the manage route), so age should not be an issue. However, skills might be an issue. I.e. if you spent your career in companies that use tech, you might not have deep specialization. Companies that use tech, are easier, which tends to bring less experienced developers, which usually are younger and might create ageism.

rc_kas 7y ago

what does it matter? global warming going to send us into an apocalypse in 2-3 years anyways.

nameseemslegit 7y ago

I joined a FAANG company when I was about 40 years old around just a couple of years ago coming from a sequence of startups and smaller companies. I think the biggest adjustment to make is the performance review systems. At these big companies performance is not about doing right things, but about fitting in with insular expectations. The senior folks who you would hope could mentor you may have no idea that you don't "get it" or what kind of feedback it requires to make the transition. In contrast, a lot of feedback you get at smaller companies is to just focus on doing right things for the business and not worry about any defined expectations. I have seen some people make the transition smoothly... others not so much.

unoti 7y ago

I was 47 when I joined Microsoft and am currently a principal engineer working as an individual contributor doing engineering work. Before that I was running my own startup for several years. There are jobs available in everything imaginable including product management, engineering, management, and blends of those three. The age thing wasn’t a problem for me interviewing for an engineering position. However, I had some difficult engineering interviews with senior and principal engineers. You should prepare hard to interview very well. The hardest part is convincing young senior engineers that you’re as good of a develop as they are or better.

jlg23 7y ago

It basically boils down to: what are you more comfortable with? If it is management, go for it. If it is coding, be open about your expectations and go with a company that values your experience while accepting that you're there 9 to 5.

cmsonger 7y ago

I joined Google at the age of 50. Just send a resume. They are not trying to surprise you and want you to do your best. Consequently, not only do they tell you what to expect from the interview process, the recruiter will send you a PDF that talks through what to expect along with a reading list you can use to prepare. (For example: cracking the coding interview and CLRS are on it.) That said, I just went in cold. If you've been coding and are current in one of the 3 big interview languages (C++/Java/Python), and if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you need to know. Side note: A thing that no one told me but that I had to figure out on my own is that your technical writing skills are one of the most important skills to doing well at google. It was unironically said to me that the highest reward/effort one can do at Google is to write documents. The person who said it was correct about that IMO.

decebalus1 7y ago
You advice is sound but incomplete. > if you still understand your undergraduate level algorithms course and the corresponding vocabulary, then you know what you need to know speaking from experience, this would not get you nowhere near the level you have to be for passing the Google interview (or any other FAANG interview for that matter). You need to study long and hard in addition to solving OJ problems and familiarize yourself with different problem patterns. Let me give you and example of what I got at Google: https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/ https://leetcode.com/problems/remove-duplicate-letters/ Solving this problem optimally with only what you remember from undergrad algo courses is impossible. You either need to have a knack for these types of challenges or solve enough of them to identify a solution pattern.
- deleted 7y ago
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- matt-attack 7y ago
  > You must make sure your result is the smallest in lexicographical order among all possible results. Can someone explain this? I can't even parse that sentence.

harel 7y ago

I don't know where you live, but I'm guessing you're in the US. I'm 43 as well, been mostly the startup world for 20+ years - similar journey (worked, founded, etc). After my last startup got sold (not at best terms), I also took the time to relax a bit (and ended up rebooting another business and starting another instead). Anyway, after my timeout I got back into contracting. First of all, I've never encountered ageism and my experience was always appreciated. It could be to do with my attitude, or maybe ageism is not a thing in the UK as it is elsewhere. I think attitude helps and if you come across as a friendly experienced person you will be able to get in. My question to you would be why go for the "Larger" tech companies? Why not focus on established smaller companies? I personally equate those with start-up level stress but less ability to affect things. Again, just my personal perspective. Second point - do try contracting. It's quite liberating not being tied to a place in a long term mental-bond. The market is great for contracts (at least in the UK).

cutthegrass2 7y ago
This is a great perspective and resonates a lot for me. Curious though, to hear your thoughts on the incoming off-payroll legislation and how you feel it will effect the UK contracting market.
- harel 7y ago
  We've just been talking about this yesterday and today in the client's office, where most of us are contractors. It's an agency, most tech staff is on contract, the client is a government body where almost everyone there are contractors because gov pay is low and nobody will take the work on their PAYE rates. Spoke to my accountant who told me this whole IR-35 malarkey is under review at the moment and might or might not happen come April. He made a good point regarding IR-35 "insurances" saying that they are only offered because the chance of being hit by HMRC for that are slim to none which is why they are passing the buck to the clients. The problem is not HMRC vs the Contractor but now HMRC scaring the clients from hiring contractors. Another friend told me his current client wants them all inside IR-35 which means a mass contractor exodus. He also told me banks are cutting the contractors as well. The problem for banks is that a LOT of their tech staff are contractors at high rates. To be perfectly honest, I'm concerned to a degree. Both for contractors like me, and to clients who rely on contractors - come April, if this is not retracted, there will be a mass shortage of hands. Being inside IR-35 is like being PAYE without benefits and PAYE pay is significantly lower than contract one. This is quite a problematic situation.

4ydx 7y ago

I've interviewed and failed often enough (with google) to know it is never going to happen.

czbond 7y ago

I cold applied for an L7 position at "A" recently. Going in, I had fear that I was under qualified. My background is CompSci, Management consulting and leading teams at global 5 companies, startup founder, and other lead positions. I left the L7 interview wholly underwhelmed as I felt I was interviewed by engineers with experience an inch wide, one mile deep. Whereas I like to be a mile wide, 0.8 miles deep. My thoughts "maybe L8" is better didn't set well though... edit: I'm in Denver, and here senior leader positions are not too common.

sizzle 7y ago
Very interesting metaphor of the engineering talent you sized up during your interview. Thanks for sharing that. You have an interesting background, would love to learn more about your career trajectory. Do you have a blog where you write more that you don't mind sharing? Feel free to email a link if you're up to it. (email in bio) Thanks!
- czbond 7y ago
  :) I only create things, not document my stories.
  - sizzle 7y ago
    Time to start writing :)

wonjohnchoi 7y ago

I am still in my 20's and recently switched team. Switching team made me think a lot about what I want to do in my life, and I still haven't been able to figure it out. I was feeling anxious and worried as I felt I am old enough that I should know what I want to do. Reading some of comments in this thread made me realize that many people don't figure out what they want to do, even until 40's, so I feel better that I am not alone in this. I thank you all for sharing your perspectives with career. I will bookmark this page and read this whenever I feel lost with direction of my career.

zelly 7y ago

You should brush up on protocol buffers. Oh and containers. Mostly protocol buffers.

aspectmin 7y ago

Just speaking from my experience. I rejoined Microsoft at 47. Loved it. There are a lot more grey hairs there than during the early days, and nobody cares (in a good way). You’re just part of the team. Go for it. Satya has done amazing things with that company, and in many teams it’s like working for a startup, but with the safety/security of a bigger co. I lasted 3 years and then got the urge to go chase my own thing again (ML/robotics consultancy), but most my friends (well into their 50’s) are still there. Go for it.

vaingloriole 7y ago

If you don't care about dealing with the headaches of enterprise/corporate and know what you are getting into then sure. Not for me. I've tried multiple times after 15 years in various startups (and .edu). The kultur of a large company is a deal breaker. I'd suggest looking into consulting or , if you can do it, find a large company that needs 'SME' and 'Fixer' skills (if you have those). You can then approach work offsite or telework varying your vista on the basis of what project needs your skills. Defense contracting has a lot of this type of work.

cryptozeus 7y ago

All valid points but this is very personal, no one can answer this. This question alone requires you to meditate on your personal preferences. "I can still keep up coding, but should I do that, or try for management?"

longtimegoogler 7y ago

Depends what you want to do. Are you still passionate about coding? If not they I would suggest management.

dblock 7y ago

I joined AWS 6 months ago at 43 as a principal engineer, transitioning from a CTO role of a Series D company, and wrote about it. https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-going-from-management-back-to-ic.html https://code.dblock.org/2019/11/17/the-pros-and-cons-of-goin... I would recommend it.

jiveturkey 7y ago

43? you young-uns crack me up. > I can still keep up coding This sounds like you are not confident of your skills. At 43, with 20-ish YOE, if you want to become a SWE IC at FAANG you better be good, and know it. > but should I do that, or try for management? no offense, but you sound like an 18 yo. In all this time at startups, how is it you haven't learned how to make decisions? Sorry if I am being harsh, consider it tough love. :) You might just be coming off in writing as being indecisive and lack confidence, whereas in real life you are solid. Or you might have the humility that only true seniority brings. I can't tell from here. Either way, I don't think this is a question with easy answers that you can get from a forum. You need to do some soul searching. I would first settle the question of whether or not you want to go into management, not whether or not you think FAANG will have you as an IC. There are plenty of books on becoming a manager. Almost all of them suck, but that doesn't matter. You'll get some initial perspective from reading 1 or 2 of them. Assuming you do want to switch tracks to management, I don't know at all how FAANG is at hiring no-experience managers at age 43. Personally, I like to be prepared so my personal plan in that case would be to get a manager job at a startup -- it should be super easy for you. Do that for 2 years max. Quit no matter what after that. (You need to make that your plan and stick to it.) If you like it, apply to FAANG! Note though that being a manager at FAANG is completely different than being one at a startup. But what you're going for is the resume builder as well as the experience of having direct reports. Ideally you'd get a job where you have firing authority. Not that you want to exercise that, but it changes things. Now if you search within and read a couple books and decide IC is what you love, take a month to bone up on core algorithms and then go for it.

Technophilis 7y ago

I have both worked with and interviewed people in their 40s when I worked at a FAANG. Despite what's advertised by HR, culture tends to be org/team-dependent at bigger tech companies. I believe that you should be more concerned about culture fit which is something you can assess during the interview. If you decide to interview for an individual contributor position, I recommend that you brush up on algorithms. You can either target a company on LeetCode or go through a generic list of problems (here is the one I use https://theinterviewlist.com https://theinterviewlist.com)

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