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German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. They focused their R&D on figuring out the best way to cheat on emissions t

German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. They focused their R&D on figuring out the best way to cheat on emissions testing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal) None of the German car manufacturers actually made any worthwhile EVs, and it always seemed like they're making EVs just to satisfy EU lawmakers. Meanwhile across the ocean, a company with essentially no production line history is able to completely destroy century old companies because they got complacent. German car manufacturers deserve everything coming to them

Scoundreller 7y ago
> None of the German car manufacturers actually made any worthwhile EVs, and it always seemed like they're making EVs just to satisfy EU lawmakers. To be fair, this is most legacy automakers.
- fennecfoxen 7y ago
  To be fair, electric vehicles are generally unprofitable and people who buy cars prefer not to pay more money for less impressive capabilities. Spending money to develop products that you can't sell at a profit is not generally a winning strategy, which is why the EV market is sort of a waiting game, in which automakers try to time their investments against various government subsidies and regulations — knowing that the moment it really is a more profitable approach, your competitors will all be flooded with capital and trying very hard to seize the same markets that you are after. (Heck, if you do too well against them, you could see government intervention to prop up your competitors in the name of saving jobs, whether the US government or otherwise. See also: the Renault/Nissan merger proposal that made Ghosn a political target. They were trying to do joint work on EVs to keep costs down, and the merger would be the next step — but Nissan is Too Iconic and Important to Japan™ to allow it.)
  - Enginerrrd 7y ago
    The real kicker is it's not even all that an effective way to counter climate change. It's more feel good BS than anything else.
    - senordevnyc 7y ago
      I would get an electric car even if I didn’t care about climate change at all. I really don’t think that’s why most people bought Model S cars worth six figures...
      - megablast 7y ago
        Well of course. You can’t care about climate change, and buy a car.
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        This is why I prefer carbon taxes over EV subsidies. An EV that largely sits in the driveway doesn’t accomplish anything toward any climate goals.
        clarry 7y ago
        Well damn. Guess I need to stop walking and cycling and make sure to drive the car more.
        Enginerrrd 7y ago
        A Carbon tax done right would have WAY more efficacy than EV subsidies, dollar for dollar.
    - tonmoy 7y ago
      Can you please provide some evidence for your claim? My quick research showed that about 29% of GHG emissions is from transport and a significant part of that is from cars and trucks
      - 7y ago
amelius 7y ago
Perhaps developing an electric vehicle isn't that difficult, as Tesla shows, and German carmakers are just waiting for the right moment.
- rmoriz 7y ago
  EVs are simpler products that make lots of knowledge and experience useless. And the most expensive part of EVs is the battery made by Asian companies. So it you start "too early" you introduce negative scaling effects on your highly profitable combustion business AND have to invest a lot upfront for the EV models. There is no way to win this game, many workers will lose their jobs and also initial investments will affect profit and dividends. If you are too slow, Tesla will take the profitable segments anyway.
- icelancer 7y ago
  Do you think the same about reusable spaceflight?
clouddrover 7y ago
> German car manufacturers deserve everything coming to them What's coming to Volkswagen is that they'll be the world's biggest producer of EVs. It's not that surprising. After all, they are the world's biggest car company. 2020 is the start of Volkswagen's big EV push. This is what Volkswagen's 2020 EV plan looks like: - VW e-Up!: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-161-mile-range-costs-less-than-its-predecessor/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-16... - VW e-Golf (sold over 100,000 but will be replaced by the ID.3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4lrqWx8E0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4lrqWx8E0 - VW ID.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E - VW ID.4: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-frankfurt-motor-show/volkswagen-id-4-electric-suv-winter-tests-curious-disguise https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-frankfurt-mot... - SEAT Mii: https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/11/seat-mii-available-to-order-soon-for-20650e/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/11/seat-mii-available-to-o... - SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI7WFtwc8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI7WFtwc8g - Cupra Tavascan (maybe, not confirmed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYHRKp4n1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYHRKp4n1w - Skoda Citigo iV: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo-e-iv-cost-%C2%A316955-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo... - Skoda Vision iV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E - Audi e-tron (and also the new "sportback" variant): https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron - Audi e-tron Q4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU - Audi e-tron GT (maybe 2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMEdiq2xTbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMEdiq2xTbQ - Porsche Taycan (and the Sports Turismo wagon variant in future): https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/ https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/ More models in 2021 and more in 2022 and so on. The Volkswagen ID.3 will be a big seller in Europe and then later on in China. It's a popular form factor with good range at a good price.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  by end of 2021 they only expect 330k total BEV vehicles globally.. that is not a big push from a company making over ten million cars per year. now they expect to reach a million per year by 2023 but that still keeps their percentage very low. the simple truth is, no they aren't trying very hard. they have to cater both to politicians and unions at home neither of which can sustain the job losses BEVs will lead too; not just in the manufacturing but it cascades into after market, petrol refining, gas stations, and more.
ThePhysicist 7y ago
I think that view is a bit simplistic. Tesla is catering to upperclass and upper-middleclass people. 90 % of people in Germany either wouldn’t be able to afford or wouldn’t be willing to pay 50.000 € (what the cheapest Tesla model costs here) for a small sedan when they can get a Diesel car with similar capabilities for 20.000 € or less. And honestly most people don’t care much about emissions, they care about usability and ease of use, and there gasoline cars are just much more convenient than electric cars right now. I have several colleagues that drive Tesla and I find it a bit awkward that they have to plan their hotels and schedule around the available charging infrastructure even for small distances (e.g. for going from Berlin to Leipzig to attend 36c3). EVs would be awesome if the charging infrastructure was there but it isn’t and it won’t be for several years to come.
- faserop 7y ago
  Curious which German made Diesel cars costs 20.000 € or less. I get the impression from Germans that EVs are not a good solution to replace diesel. Perhaps there just isn't motivation of the populas behind the techonology. Which could be blamed on the lack of infrastructure to support charging. Also in the United States a lot of people have garages that they can install charging stations in. I wonder what the percentage of Germans who have a private garage is.
  - gumby 7y ago
    Anecdotally I’d say it’s about the same: if you live in a sub urb and have a detached or semi detached home you have a garage; if yuh live in an urban environment you often don’t. I think these factors are the same in both countries.
  - alacombe 7y ago
    Irrelevant of diesel, if you only need a city car, say alike the Citroen C1, you can get a gas car with 600km range for about 12,000EUR. That 1.5x better range for 20% of the price and 25% smaller on top of that. For the same package, the Citroen C0 has about 20% of the range for twice the price.
buboard 7y ago
tesla is not aiming at VWs audience. They make sexy, expensive and fast cars that target the market of ... porsche cayenne? It's not clear if tesla's model will lead to economies of scale that will make these cars cheap. it's a bit premature to say that they 'll destroy old companies. There are already pretty good EVs like the jaguar I-pace , but they dont have mass market appeal. If tesla manages to cut into VWs profits, i think you ll see a lot of EVs being pushed out fast.
zarkov99 7y ago
I don't think that is fair. The Japanese, Korean, Italian, French and other Americans still have not made any worthwhile EV cars either. It's Musk's drive that is the anomaly not German complecancy.
- adev_ 7y ago
  > The Japanese, Korean, Italian, French and other Americans still have not made any worthwhile EV cars either. That's wrong. And pretty US centric. The Japanese / French have the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe that have excellent sells in their respective countries. They however do not fight on the same ground than Tesla.
- rapsey 7y ago
  Except Italian makers I see way more EV cars from those manufacturers on the road then Tesla in my corner of Europe.
zapnuk 7y ago
While this is true. It is also short sighted. 1. They don't need much time to catch up. The VW ID 3 has solid specs and costs significantly less than a Model 3. 2. Combustion cars will still be around for quite some time. If not in EU/USA/China then in emerging countries.
- Retric 7y ago
  The VW ID 3 is not coming to the US, has a 45kWh battery, 50kW charging, and 50 mile shorter range for $33,180. So both in terms of specs and availability it’s still significantly behind the Model 3. Size wise it’s about 17 inches (429mm) shorter, which may not be a bad thing. However, it shows they are making real sacrifices to hit that price point.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    You're thinking of the base model. The ID.3 comes in three battery sizes with up to 125kW charging. Here's the selection of ID.3 models with Danish pricing (which isn't comparable to the rest of Europe): https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/19/volkswagen-announces-id-3-pro-power/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/19/volkswagen-announces-id... If you look at Tesla's Danish site for the Model 3, the Standard Range Plus has a WLTP range of 409km and costs 369,900 DKK. The mid-range ID.3 has a WLTP range of 420 km and costs 309,995 DKK. So the mid-range ID.3 has slightly more range than a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus at a lower price point.
    - Retric 7y ago
      I agree it’s a more reasonable comparison. However is that pricing including a tariff on one or both of them? 55,400 USD for the Model 3 is 58% over base US pricing and the ID 3 jacked 36% @ 41,630 euros vs the stated 30k euros in Germany.
      - 7y ago
agumonkey 7y ago
VW is being heavily watched by people on reddit. The ID platform has regular news. I don't know the details but it seems VW has changed course substantially.
lowdose 7y ago
"German quality" turned out to be German marketing.
sesuximo 7y ago
BMW i3 is an excellent electric car
- PhantomGremlin 7y ago
  Yeah, if you want to go around the block a few times before you run out of juice.[1] A lot of Americans need much longer range. The EPA range of the 2017 and older models was 81 miles. For about a year I did a one-way commute of about that distance. Only for 2019 did BMW come up with a somewhat reasonable range of 153 miles. I don't take the REx variant seriously. They are a really bad joke. Why not add an IC engine merely to get to a 200 mile range? And at the same time lower your electric-only range to 126 miles because of the added weight. That's beyond stupidity. Even with all that, I can't buy a new BMW i3 locally. The Beaverton dealer claims to have 231 vehicles, exactly zero battery vehicles: https://www.kunibmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm https://www.kunibmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm The Portland dealer claims to have 111 vehicles, exactly two BMW-i vehicles. They are both i8 at about $170,000 each: https://www.bmwportland.com/new-inventory/index.htm https://www.bmwportland.com/new-inventory/index.htm [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Fuel_economy_and_range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Fuel_economy_and_range
sneak 7y ago
Tesla has not, as yet, either turned a profit or “completely destroy[ed]” a single “century old company”. If you remove the constraint of operating profitably, many companies can do the impossible. :) (I am not saying Tesla won’t be profitable, or can’t be, or that the German automakers don’t deserve some blowback for poor choices—just that you are making false claims and also comparing apples to oranges.)
- netsharc 7y ago
  I wonder if Volkswagen Group (one of the biggest carmakers, they own VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat, Skoda) is waiting for the right moment to buy/take over Tesla... Just one stupid tweet might be all it takes.
  - lixtra 7y ago
    They cannot afford unless Tesla shares crash.
- xedeon 7y ago
  >Tesla has not, as yet, either turned a profit This is false. https://qz.com/1734436/tesla-turns-a-profit/ https://qz.com/1734436/tesla-turns-a-profit/
  - sneak 7y ago
    Ahh, thank you for the correction! I must’ve missed the last quarter’s results.
  - aguyfromnb 7y ago
    They will lose over a billion dollars again in 2019. Shifting around expenses to post a single quarterly profit isn't a huge accomplishment, is it? If/when they can hit the SP500 we can talk about profit.
    - xedeon 7y ago
      Amazon part deux.
sandworm101 7y ago
That's a total oversimplification of two very different auto markets. Germans relate to their cars very differently than do americans, including on environmental issues. For one, Germany has a much more well-developed public transport network. An eco-minded German is much more likely to park their car and take a bus/train etc. So if you take the bus/train regularly, you don't feel so bad about having a diesel car for use when you need it. Contrast that with Tesla's home turf: California. Public transport there is ludicrously bad. The car is king. So, lacking proper public transport options, the eco-minded californian will consider electric options much more readily. I have never met a Tesla owner on a bus or train in north america. I have met many German BMW/Merc/Porche owners on European trains. I have met plenty of Tesla owners on aircraft, going on their holidays. I do laugh at the irony of all those Teslas parked at SFO. How many of their owners are flying business class or better? How many of them have extensive solar panels on their houses? Electric cars in north america are more of a fashion statement than they are in europe. Another big market difference: Engine size. Germans prefer smaller engines and make them work. Americans prefer larger engines that putter along at 10% capacity. Another: transmission preferences. US = 98% automatic, Germany = <30%. The markets are so different that any direct comparison can only happen after extensive couching of every statistic.
- option 7y ago
  while either extreme is bad, I find it much more comfortable in CA vs Germany. Have you ever been in people traffic in subway during rush hours? Throw in flu season on the mix. I’ll take car traffic any day over that. Electric self driving cars (land a lot of related infrastructure sounds much more compelling then anything Germany or Europe has to offer right now
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    I have. The people traffic in the US is far far worse. Hygiene matters more than numbers. I cannot stand the spitting, something that most of the western world made illegal for good reason. I see Americans spit on the subway platform in SF every time I go there. I've never seen that in germany/france/UK. I'm far more afraid of catching something from that single american spitting on the ground than any crowded German rail station. I would consider a Tesla just to avoid disease at BART stations, a balance that would be a non-issue in germany. Again, two very different markets.
nl 7y ago
Every single point in this comment is wrong and yet it is the highest voted comment here. 1) They didn't stop all R&D except how to cheat on emissions tests. They cheated on emissions tests but their R&D remains very high. 2) Both BMW (the i series) and Porsche have got excellent electric cars. 3) Tesla hadn't destroyed the German manufacturers. They are all profitable and sell more cars than Tesla I'm a big Tesla fan, but there's no need to make stuff up. The German manufacturers have challenges, but they remain successful, innovative companies.
sho_hn 7y ago
> German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. https://www.statista.com/statistics/346985/research-and-development-expenses-of-mercedes-benz-cars/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/346985/research-and-deve...
- edraferi 7y ago
  Paywall - what’s your point?
  - sho_hn 7y ago
    It's a stats set of Daimler R&D spending from 2011 to 2018 (no paywall with a Google referrer, sorry). It's about doubled in the time, and that looks about the same for the other big ones, I think, certainly some googling on BMW R&D etc. would suggest so. Personally, I don't think emissions test cheating takes your R&D from 3 bn. to 7 bn, so the parent's comment seems to be oversimplifying or wrong.
thdrdt 7y ago
Tesla is not destroying any company. I don't know why you think they do. In the USA the market share of light trucks was 73% in Q3 2019. Those are 100% not Tesla's. Tesla's revenue is ~23% of BMW group's revenue. Impressive for sure but they are not destroying anyone. It is also estimated that if Ford and VW bring an EV on the market they will easily sell 100k units with their first model. The world market is bigger and different than you think. The German brands are loved in China. And markets like Brazil are upcoming.
- thrower123 7y ago
  In fact, while Ford, for instance, is gutting their sedan offerings, they are making money hand over fist in SUVs and light trucks.
  - somerandomqaguy 7y ago
    Sorta. They stopped production of the Fiesta, Focus, and Taurus in North America as they were not turning a good profit. They'll continue to produce the Focus and Fiesta for the European market where they far more popular. That said Ford's also focused quite a bit on hybridization of their more profitable models. The Explorer and Escape are now offered in mild hybrid options, with a FWD PHEV in the Escape coming Q2 to Q3. They've confirmed that the F150 will be receiving both hybrid and EV drive trains as well. IIRC the Mustang lineup will be receiving hybridization as well.
- mymythisisthis 7y ago
  American 'trucks' are terrible. The USA has a huge import duty on light trucks, really good ones are kept out. Import duties, cheap gas, and CAFE rules on station wagons skew the market in the USA in favor of light SUVs
  - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
    > [...] and CAFE rules on station wagons skew the market in the USA in favor of light SUVs I never really thought about that. I rarely see station-wagons anymore these days. Great point.
lispm 7y ago
> German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. Volkswagen is currently running a multi-billion euro initiative for the next generation of cars.
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
Amazing how people keep blaming VW and Germany! They are not the worst offenders, by far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Previous_defeat_device_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Previ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_emissions_by_manufacturer_and_capacity.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_em...
NicoJuicy 7y ago
Over reaction, but Tesla still feels like plastic/cheap ( interior) to me. They are eating some lunch from some carmakers, but not as much as you think. Eg. Tesla was #11 in sales in September 2019. Some "hybrids" are absolute shit though. And this is with a lot of EV tax incentives.

Scoundreller 7y ago

> None of the German car manufacturers actually made any worthwhile EVs, and it always seemed like they're making EVs just to satisfy EU lawmakers. To be fair, this is most legacy automakers.

fennecfoxen 7y ago
To be fair, electric vehicles are generally unprofitable and people who buy cars prefer not to pay more money for less impressive capabilities. Spending money to develop products that you can't sell at a profit is not generally a winning strategy, which is why the EV market is sort of a waiting game, in which automakers try to time their investments against various government subsidies and regulations — knowing that the moment it really is a more profitable approach, your competitors will all be flooded with capital and trying very hard to seize the same markets that you are after. (Heck, if you do too well against them, you could see government intervention to prop up your competitors in the name of saving jobs, whether the US government or otherwise. See also: the Renault/Nissan merger proposal that made Ghosn a political target. They were trying to do joint work on EVs to keep costs down, and the merger would be the next step — but Nissan is Too Iconic and Important to Japan™ to allow it.)
- Enginerrrd 7y ago
  The real kicker is it's not even all that an effective way to counter climate change. It's more feel good BS than anything else.
  - senordevnyc 7y ago
    I would get an electric car even if I didn’t care about climate change at all. I really don’t think that’s why most people bought Model S cars worth six figures...
    - megablast 7y ago
      Well of course. You can’t care about climate change, and buy a car.
      - Scoundreller 7y ago
        This is why I prefer carbon taxes over EV subsidies. An EV that largely sits in the driveway doesn’t accomplish anything toward any climate goals.
        clarry 7y ago
        Well damn. Guess I need to stop walking and cycling and make sure to drive the car more.
        Enginerrrd 7y ago
        A Carbon tax done right would have WAY more efficacy than EV subsidies, dollar for dollar.
  - tonmoy 7y ago
    Can you please provide some evidence for your claim? My quick research showed that about 29% of GHG emissions is from transport and a significant part of that is from cars and trucks
    - 7y ago

amelius 7y ago

Perhaps developing an electric vehicle isn't that difficult, as Tesla shows, and German carmakers are just waiting for the right moment.

rmoriz 7y ago
EVs are simpler products that make lots of knowledge and experience useless. And the most expensive part of EVs is the battery made by Asian companies. So it you start "too early" you introduce negative scaling effects on your highly profitable combustion business AND have to invest a lot upfront for the EV models. There is no way to win this game, many workers will lose their jobs and also initial investments will affect profit and dividends. If you are too slow, Tesla will take the profitable segments anyway.
icelancer 7y ago
Do you think the same about reusable spaceflight?

clouddrover 7y ago

> German car manufacturers deserve everything coming to them What's coming to Volkswagen is that they'll be the world's biggest producer of EVs. It's not that surprising. After all, they are the world's biggest car company. 2020 is the start of Volkswagen's big EV push. This is what Volkswagen's 2020 EV plan looks like: - VW e-Up!: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-161-mile-range-costs-less-than-its-predecessor/ https://www.carscoops.com/2019/09/vws-updated-e-up-offers-16... - VW e-Golf (sold over 100,000 but will be replaced by the ID.3): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4lrqWx8E0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah4lrqWx8E0 - VW ID.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPjvgXWA78E - VW ID.4: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-frankfurt-motor-show/volkswagen-id-4-electric-suv-winter-tests-curious-disguise https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-frankfurt-mot... - SEAT Mii: https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/11/seat-mii-available-to-order-soon-for-20650e/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/11/seat-mii-available-to-o... - SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI7WFtwc8g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI7WFtwc8g - Cupra Tavascan (maybe, not confirmed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYHRKp4n1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYHRKp4n1w - Skoda Citigo iV: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo-e-iv-cost-%C2%A316955-uk https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-skoda-citigo... - Skoda Vision iV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E - Audi e-tron (and also the new "sportback" variant): https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron - Audi e-tron Q4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU - Audi e-tron GT (maybe 2021): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMEdiq2xTbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMEdiq2xTbQ - Porsche Taycan (and the Sports Turismo wagon variant in future): https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/ https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/ More models in 2021 and more in 2022 and so on. The Volkswagen ID.3 will be a big seller in Europe and then later on in China. It's a popular form factor with good range at a good price.

Shivetya 7y ago
by end of 2021 they only expect 330k total BEV vehicles globally.. that is not a big push from a company making over ten million cars per year. now they expect to reach a million per year by 2023 but that still keeps their percentage very low. the simple truth is, no they aren't trying very hard. they have to cater both to politicians and unions at home neither of which can sustain the job losses BEVs will lead too; not just in the manufacturing but it cascades into after market, petrol refining, gas stations, and more.

ThePhysicist 7y ago

I think that view is a bit simplistic. Tesla is catering to upperclass and upper-middleclass people. 90 % of people in Germany either wouldn’t be able to afford or wouldn’t be willing to pay 50.000 € (what the cheapest Tesla model costs here) for a small sedan when they can get a Diesel car with similar capabilities for 20.000 € or less. And honestly most people don’t care much about emissions, they care about usability and ease of use, and there gasoline cars are just much more convenient than electric cars right now. I have several colleagues that drive Tesla and I find it a bit awkward that they have to plan their hotels and schedule around the available charging infrastructure even for small distances (e.g. for going from Berlin to Leipzig to attend 36c3). EVs would be awesome if the charging infrastructure was there but it isn’t and it won’t be for several years to come.

faserop 7y ago
Curious which German made Diesel cars costs 20.000 € or less. I get the impression from Germans that EVs are not a good solution to replace diesel. Perhaps there just isn't motivation of the populas behind the techonology. Which could be blamed on the lack of infrastructure to support charging. Also in the United States a lot of people have garages that they can install charging stations in. I wonder what the percentage of Germans who have a private garage is.
- gumby 7y ago
  Anecdotally I’d say it’s about the same: if you live in a sub urb and have a detached or semi detached home you have a garage; if yuh live in an urban environment you often don’t. I think these factors are the same in both countries.
- alacombe 7y ago
  Irrelevant of diesel, if you only need a city car, say alike the Citroen C1, you can get a gas car with 600km range for about 12,000EUR. That 1.5x better range for 20% of the price and 25% smaller on top of that. For the same package, the Citroen C0 has about 20% of the range for twice the price.

buboard 7y ago

tesla is not aiming at VWs audience. They make sexy, expensive and fast cars that target the market of ... porsche cayenne? It's not clear if tesla's model will lead to economies of scale that will make these cars cheap. it's a bit premature to say that they 'll destroy old companies. There are already pretty good EVs like the jaguar I-pace , but they dont have mass market appeal. If tesla manages to cut into VWs profits, i think you ll see a lot of EVs being pushed out fast.

zarkov99 7y ago

I don't think that is fair. The Japanese, Korean, Italian, French and other Americans still have not made any worthwhile EV cars either. It's Musk's drive that is the anomaly not German complecancy.

adev_ 7y ago
> The Japanese, Korean, Italian, French and other Americans still have not made any worthwhile EV cars either. That's wrong. And pretty US centric. The Japanese / French have the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe that have excellent sells in their respective countries. They however do not fight on the same ground than Tesla.
rapsey 7y ago
Except Italian makers I see way more EV cars from those manufacturers on the road then Tesla in my corner of Europe.

zapnuk 7y ago

While this is true. It is also short sighted. 1. They don't need much time to catch up. The VW ID 3 has solid specs and costs significantly less than a Model 3. 2. Combustion cars will still be around for quite some time. If not in EU/USA/China then in emerging countries.

Retric 7y ago
The VW ID 3 is not coming to the US, has a 45kWh battery, 50kW charging, and 50 mile shorter range for $33,180. So both in terms of specs and availability it’s still significantly behind the Model 3. Size wise it’s about 17 inches (429mm) shorter, which may not be a bad thing. However, it shows they are making real sacrifices to hit that price point.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- clouddrover 7y ago
  You're thinking of the base model. The ID.3 comes in three battery sizes with up to 125kW charging. Here's the selection of ID.3 models with Danish pricing (which isn't comparable to the rest of Europe): https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/19/volkswagen-announces-id-3-pro-power/ https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/19/volkswagen-announces-id... If you look at Tesla's Danish site for the Model 3, the Standard Range Plus has a WLTP range of 409km and costs 369,900 DKK. The mid-range ID.3 has a WLTP range of 420 km and costs 309,995 DKK. So the mid-range ID.3 has slightly more range than a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus at a lower price point.
  - Retric 7y ago
    I agree it’s a more reasonable comparison. However is that pricing including a tariff on one or both of them? 55,400 USD for the Model 3 is 58% over base US pricing and the ID 3 jacked 36% @ 41,630 euros vs the stated 30k euros in Germany.
    - 7y ago

agumonkey 7y ago

VW is being heavily watched by people on reddit. The ID platform has regular news. I don't know the details but it seems VW has changed course substantially.

lowdose 7y ago

"German quality" turned out to be German marketing.

sesuximo 7y ago

BMW i3 is an excellent electric car

PhantomGremlin 7y ago
Yeah, if you want to go around the block a few times before you run out of juice.[1] A lot of Americans need much longer range. The EPA range of the 2017 and older models was 81 miles. For about a year I did a one-way commute of about that distance. Only for 2019 did BMW come up with a somewhat reasonable range of 153 miles. I don't take the REx variant seriously. They are a really bad joke. Why not add an IC engine merely to get to a 200 mile range? And at the same time lower your electric-only range to 126 miles because of the added weight. That's beyond stupidity. Even with all that, I can't buy a new BMW i3 locally. The Beaverton dealer claims to have 231 vehicles, exactly zero battery vehicles: https://www.kunibmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm https://www.kunibmw.com/new-inventory/index.htm The Portland dealer claims to have 111 vehicles, exactly two BMW-i vehicles. They are both i8 at about $170,000 each: https://www.bmwportland.com/new-inventory/index.htm https://www.bmwportland.com/new-inventory/index.htm [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Fuel_economy_and_range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i3#Fuel_economy_and_range

sneak 7y ago

Tesla has not, as yet, either turned a profit or “completely destroy[ed]” a single “century old company”. If you remove the constraint of operating profitably, many companies can do the impossible. :) (I am not saying Tesla won’t be profitable, or can’t be, or that the German automakers don’t deserve some blowback for poor choices—just that you are making false claims and also comparing apples to oranges.)

netsharc 7y ago
I wonder if Volkswagen Group (one of the biggest carmakers, they own VW, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat, Skoda) is waiting for the right moment to buy/take over Tesla... Just one stupid tweet might be all it takes.
- lixtra 7y ago
  They cannot afford unless Tesla shares crash.
xedeon 7y ago
>Tesla has not, as yet, either turned a profit This is false. https://qz.com/1734436/tesla-turns-a-profit/ https://qz.com/1734436/tesla-turns-a-profit/
- sneak 7y ago
  Ahh, thank you for the correction! I must’ve missed the last quarter’s results.
- aguyfromnb 7y ago
  They will lose over a billion dollars again in 2019. Shifting around expenses to post a single quarterly profit isn't a huge accomplishment, is it? If/when they can hit the SP500 we can talk about profit.
  - xedeon 7y ago
    Amazon part deux.

sandworm101 7y ago

That's a total oversimplification of two very different auto markets. Germans relate to their cars very differently than do americans, including on environmental issues. For one, Germany has a much more well-developed public transport network. An eco-minded German is much more likely to park their car and take a bus/train etc. So if you take the bus/train regularly, you don't feel so bad about having a diesel car for use when you need it. Contrast that with Tesla's home turf: California. Public transport there is ludicrously bad. The car is king. So, lacking proper public transport options, the eco-minded californian will consider electric options much more readily. I have never met a Tesla owner on a bus or train in north america. I have met many German BMW/Merc/Porche owners on European trains. I have met plenty of Tesla owners on aircraft, going on their holidays. I do laugh at the irony of all those Teslas parked at SFO. How many of their owners are flying business class or better? How many of them have extensive solar panels on their houses? Electric cars in north america are more of a fashion statement than they are in europe. Another big market difference: Engine size. Germans prefer smaller engines and make them work. Americans prefer larger engines that putter along at 10% capacity. Another: transmission preferences. US = 98% automatic, Germany = <30%. The markets are so different that any direct comparison can only happen after extensive couching of every statistic.

option 7y ago
while either extreme is bad, I find it much more comfortable in CA vs Germany. Have you ever been in people traffic in subway during rush hours? Throw in flu season on the mix. I’ll take car traffic any day over that. Electric self driving cars (land a lot of related infrastructure sounds much more compelling then anything Germany or Europe has to offer right now
- sandworm101 7y ago
  I have. The people traffic in the US is far far worse. Hygiene matters more than numbers. I cannot stand the spitting, something that most of the western world made illegal for good reason. I see Americans spit on the subway platform in SF every time I go there. I've never seen that in germany/france/UK. I'm far more afraid of catching something from that single american spitting on the ground than any crowded German rail station. I would consider a Tesla just to avoid disease at BART stations, a balance that would be a non-issue in germany. Again, two very different markets.

nl 7y ago

Every single point in this comment is wrong and yet it is the highest voted comment here. 1) They didn't stop all R&D except how to cheat on emissions tests. They cheated on emissions tests but their R&D remains very high. 2) Both BMW (the i series) and Porsche have got excellent electric cars. 3) Tesla hadn't destroyed the German manufacturers. They are all profitable and sell more cars than Tesla I'm a big Tesla fan, but there's no need to make stuff up. The German manufacturers have challenges, but they remain successful, innovative companies.

sho_hn 7y ago

> German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. https://www.statista.com/statistics/346985/research-and-development-expenses-of-mercedes-benz-cars/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/346985/research-and-deve...

edraferi 7y ago
Paywall - what’s your point?
- sho_hn 7y ago
  It's a stats set of Daimler R&D spending from 2011 to 2018 (no paywall with a Google referrer, sorry). It's about doubled in the time, and that looks about the same for the other big ones, I think, certainly some googling on BMW R&D etc. would suggest so. Personally, I don't think emissions test cheating takes your R&D from 3 bn. to 7 bn, so the parent's comment seems to be oversimplifying or wrong.

thdrdt 7y ago

Tesla is not destroying any company. I don't know why you think they do. In the USA the market share of light trucks was 73% in Q3 2019. Those are 100% not Tesla's. Tesla's revenue is ~23% of BMW group's revenue. Impressive for sure but they are not destroying anyone. It is also estimated that if Ford and VW bring an EV on the market they will easily sell 100k units with their first model. The world market is bigger and different than you think. The German brands are loved in China. And markets like Brazil are upcoming.

thrower123 7y ago
In fact, while Ford, for instance, is gutting their sedan offerings, they are making money hand over fist in SUVs and light trucks.
- somerandomqaguy 7y ago
  Sorta. They stopped production of the Fiesta, Focus, and Taurus in North America as they were not turning a good profit. They'll continue to produce the Focus and Fiesta for the European market where they far more popular. That said Ford's also focused quite a bit on hybridization of their more profitable models. The Explorer and Escape are now offered in mild hybrid options, with a FWD PHEV in the Escape coming Q2 to Q3. They've confirmed that the F150 will be receiving both hybrid and EV drive trains as well. IIRC the Mustang lineup will be receiving hybridization as well.
mymythisisthis 7y ago
American 'trucks' are terrible. The USA has a huge import duty on light trucks, really good ones are kept out. Import duties, cheap gas, and CAFE rules on station wagons skew the market in the USA in favor of light SUVs
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  > [...] and CAFE rules on station wagons skew the market in the USA in favor of light SUVs I never really thought about that. I rarely see station-wagons anymore these days. Great point.

lispm 7y ago

> German automakers not only stopped their R&D to develop the next generation of cars. Volkswagen is currently running a multi-billion euro initiative for the next generation of cars.

eeZah7Ux 7y ago

Amazing how people keep blaming VW and Germany! They are not the worst offenders, by far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Previous_defeat_device_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Previ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_emissions_by_manufacturer_and_capacity.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_oxide_on-road_em...

NicoJuicy 7y ago

Over reaction, but Tesla still feels like plastic/cheap ( interior) to me. They are eating some lunch from some carmakers, but not as much as you think. Eg. Tesla was #11 in sales in September 2019. Some "hybrids" are absolute shit though. And this is with a lot of EV tax incentives.