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How to Buy a Private Jet

137 points by RickJWagner 7y ago

j7ake 7y ago
I wonder if there is a way to connect with people who have private jets and wouldn't mind picking up a passenger on the way at a price? That might be able to lower the price point for private travel if people are willing to do that. This depends on whether the ones having private jets are even willing to have the hassle of random people joining their flights.
- gambiting 7y ago
  I imagine the issue you run into there is that at that point you are providing a paid service, which triggers different regulatory/insurance requirements. Just like you can't pick up paid passengers in your own private car when just driving somewhere, other than getting some money for petrol.
- code4tee 7y ago
  For charter flights things along those lines already exist. For example hopping a ride on empty leg repositioning routes. For truly private jet flights it can be trickier. Many truly private jets operate as private flight operations under part 91 of the FAA’s rules. That has a lot less red tape for a private operator but means they truly need to be a private operator and can’t pickup others for hire. Several startups have tried to get around the above via legal loopholes via ‘Uber for airplanes’ models and got shot down by the FAA.
  - carrozo 7y ago
    “Shot down by the FAA” is a great tabloid headline. :)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bluGill 7y ago
  Most of the safety advantages of flying over driving are in the extra training required for commercial operation.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Non-commercial corporate aviation flying twin jets also has an excellent safety record.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      Such flights tend to have the same highly trained pilots as commercial flights.
- johannes1234321 7y ago
  People with private jets typically have them for privacy and flexibility. Taking strangers as passengers is defeating those purposes. However for small planes (Cessna etc.) pilots have to reach their flight hours and for financing that take passengers. Sometimes just for scenic round-trips. Sometimes over longer distances. Examples for sites arranging this (German examples) are https://flyt.club/ https://flyt.club/ https://www.mitflugzentrale.de/ https://www.mitflugzentrale.de/ or international https://www.wingly.io/ https://www.wingly.io/
- pwython 7y ago
  https://flyxo.com https://flyxo.com is a recent merger of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOJET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOJET and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetSmarter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetSmarter
- PappaPatat 7y ago
  What I see happening here (Switzerland) is that pilots, who have issues reaching their mandatory minimum flying hours, are flexible and willing to take on passengers for cost price. That's not really Uber for planes, but it gets you places in a way that is often much more expensive otherwise.
- rjsw 7y ago
  Shared rides for aircraft, what could go wrong [1] ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-46_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-...
- manigandham 7y ago
  This is rarely worth it. There are multiple companies that have tried this and it really comes down to you either being able to afford private jet travel or not. If you can't, you'll find that you're really just buying into hype more than actual productive travel. All of the arrangements will have strict conditions on passengers, luggage, arrival/departure times and many trips will only be 1-way so you're left finding your own way back, and that might be from small regional airport somewhere.
heyflyguy 7y ago
You can gain alot of time simply by getting your private pilot and instrument rating and buying a fast airplane. It need not be a Cirrus, for example. A well maintained 60s era Bonanza can get you halfway across the country in a few hours. Sure it's more expensive, but you can fly to an airport that is nearest to your business dealings, often borrow a "crew car" from the FBO in exchange for buying gas, and be home in time for dinner.
- ginko 7y ago
  >A well maintained 60s era Bonanza can get you halfway across the country in a few hours. The kind of plane Steve Wozniak had his famous crash with in 1981?
  - sebcat 7y ago
    https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/220512 https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/220512 Beechcraft Bonanza A36TC
  - mediaman 7y ago
    Yes. Though he only had 50 hours total time, and that plane - a relatively high speed, retractable, turbocharged piston - is way too much to handle for someone with only 50 hours. From accounts, it sounds like he stalled the plane on climbout. He claims his girlfriend leaned on the controls, which doesn't make a lot of sense, because leaning on the yoke would push the nose down, preventing a stall. Who knows what actually happened. But yes, a novice pilot with a fast, sophisticated plane is asking for trouble.
    - vonseel 7y ago
      50 hours is barely past the minimum for a PPL.
- bluGill 7y ago
  True, but is it worth it. Private pilots are enough of an additional risk that life insurance will charge extra if you are one. Commercial planes are safer than driving, but flying yourself it apparently not (of course this depends on lots of factors, practice and training being big ones). Besides, if you can afford a plane for trips like this the cost of hiring a pilot to fly your plane is in the noise and well worth is just so you can get something done.
krono 7y ago
Same way you buy a custom yacht, you tell your PA to sort it out :) Interesting article btw, there's a lot more to it than the title implies.
sails 7y ago
Hold your payment until the 12th Dec (UK election) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/04/call-for-ban-on-uk-private-jets-by-2025-as-flight-traffic-soars https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/04/call-for-ba...
- telesilla 7y ago
  If you want to splurge after jets are banned from the UK, try one of these 3-week jet getaways from the Four Seasons, only $160k.. https://m.fourseasons.com/privatejet/journeys/remote-wonders-2021/ https://m.fourseasons.com/privatejet/journeys/remote-wonders...
baybal2 7y ago
What they write is something weird. I did a website for a man who does luxury yacht rentals in China as a side project. He was somewhat close to that industry. I heard that very few people, even billionaires really own their jets. Leasing, rent, "uber," and club memberships are way more common. Second, you do not save time flying a private jet. He said he knew a number of CEOs who had more than enough money for a charter, but often had to fly economy class because it's the only ticket you can realistically buy same day on a minute notice. One said that arranging a private flight usually takes a week or more, and you have to be shuttled from a small, remote airport, adding hours to the trip. I can myself confirm the later as I once met Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo in an economy class! The later really tells that private charter doesn't really work anywhere but parts of US and Europe, and more being more of a shuttle service than real point to point transport.
- jacobush 7y ago
  It must depend. If you live close to the airport where your jet is, and you can fly above the corridors (13000 feet?), it must work. I worked at a "startup-ish" company which got their own jet, they sometimes took staff for a quick weekend trip to somewhere in the sun.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    The fuel burn on any turbine down low is eye-watering. Jets almost always fly far higher than the low arrival corridors. It’s problematic for some that are temporarily restricted from RVSM airspace (so are pinned down to 28K feet or lower). Even on a 45 minute hop, the jet will climb into the 20s.
    - jacobush 7y ago
      Ooops I meant 13000 meters. AKA 40k feet or so.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I heard that very few people, even billionaires really own their jets. Leasing, rent, "uber," and club memberships are way more common. Not surprising. The "three Fs" rule has fewer and fewer exceptions the higher the dollar amounts involved.
mothsonasloth 7y ago
Out of interest, what do you think the percentage of HackerNews users would have the the finances to buy a private jet?
- FBISurveillance 7y ago
  Assuming you mean buy and maintain, same as the percentage of world population that have the finances to buy a private jet.
  - throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
    I think less than average. HN would, in my best guess, be much wealthier than average, but contain a smaller proportion of the super wealth required to (reasonable) purchase a private jet
  - lucideer 7y ago
    I would say the percentage on HN is far far higher. The majority of HN are from the US/the anglosphere/wealthy western nations. A large percentage of HN are in a profession that pays above average (engineering). A smaller but I guess not insignificant percentage are investors. HN is in no way representative of the general population.
    - snowwrestler 7y ago
      I'm sure there are far fewer people on HN at the lower end of the global wealth scale, than in the global population. But it takes a lot of money to buy a jet. I would not be too sure that the very top of the global wealth scale is well-represented here, either. Dicking around on a web forum seems like a waste of time for someone with the means to live the life they want.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - cmdshiftf4 7y ago
      >I would say the percentage on HN is far far higher. >A large percentage of HN are in a profession that pays above average (engineering) Not related. Even if you're a director at Google pulling 1m a year in, you're not buying a private jet. Or, you're not unless you're reckless. The reason HN would have a far higher audience of people who own or have access to private jets is because a bunch of tech entrepreneurs who've really made it, such as the Collisons and Drew Houston, have come through here on their ascension and some of whom are still around.
cascom 7y ago
What’s funny is that if time is really the motivator, there are so many more cost efficient ways of gaining time then corporate aviation. And most of the people who use corporate aviation, haven’t optimized their time in other parts of their lives E.g. have a personal trainer come to your house everyday (as opposed to going to the gym), get a personal chef to cook your meals, move closer to work (or have work move closer to you),etc.
- shin_lao 7y ago
  >most of the people who use corporate aviation, haven’t optimized their time in other parts of their lives Everyone I know who flies private optimized their time way beyond what you described. Is your experience different?
  - cascom 7y ago
    Definitely - 95% of the people I know who fly private don’t have chauffeurs (for example) - which would be a much greater time savings over the course of the year. I think it just shows that either a. The time argument is a rationalization or b. It’s socially more acceptable to spend money largely out of sight on corporate aviation, rather than having people in your everyday life see an enormous household staff
    - giarc 7y ago
      I wouldn't put having a chauffeur in the same category as flying private. Sure, having someone else drive you around allows you to make phone calls, check email in the back seat. But flying private allows you to set your schedule and not wait around for the next flight out. There is a video (and I believe it's linked in this thread) about a Walmart exec visiting stores across the country. It's likely in some small to medium sized town with a regional airport. If they meet with the team from 9-12 and the next flight out isn't until 5pm, they are wasting that time waiting. Instead they fly their plane in, meet, fly out at 12:15 and are in the next town with the next manager in 45 minutes.
      - 7y ago
StavrosK 7y ago
> While the evidence for this has been mostly anecdotal, a study published in 2017 by the National Business Aviation Association, the industry’s D.C.–based advocacy group, drew a correlation between companies in the S&P 500 that deploy business aircraft versus those that don’t; the users outperformed non-users by 70 percent. AKA the higher-performing companies could afford private jets. What is up with this spurious assumption of causation?
- Someone1234 7y ago
  The entire article's tone is about promoting private jet travel as a good thing, hardly surprising.
- some_random 7y ago
  Have you read the study? How do you know that they didn't control for this? Seems like a pretty spurious assumption.
  - phreeza 7y ago
    You can't control for your dependent variable.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    The article says "the study found a correlation" and then promotes it to an assumption. One of their two sentences is wrong.
    - some_random 7y ago
      I mean the "higher-performing companies" part, I would assume any SP500 can buy a private jet if it chooses. Yeah, the article's obviously wrong.
base698 7y ago
NetJets and ExecJets do fractional ownership--also owned by Berkshire Hathaway. They are very common and almost always hear one on frequency when I'm flying around. I've heard it described as Uber for jets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetJets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetJets
ultim8k 7y ago
I believe that business aviation exists mainly because commercial aviation is not trustworthy. You book a flight and most of the times it's late for whatever reason or even canceled. It's also nearly impossible to find alternative flights for the same time if yours is canceled so you have to cancel or delay your business meeting.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  Delays and cancellations aren't the norm everywhere. What is the norm worldwide is long intervals between getting into the airport and the airplane departure and between airplane arrival and one getting out of the airport. As a norm passengers waste at a minimum 2 hours before departure and 30 minutes after arrival.
  - ultim8k 7y ago
    You are right about the time waste. I don't know about aviation in US but my experience in Europe has been the worst.
    - robohoe 7y ago
      It's pretty shitty in US depending on the airport. For example, I waste about an hour after arriving at O'Hare in Chicago. Since it's so big it takes a while to taxi to gate and get your bags. I haven't had that bad of an experience elsewhere in the US except maybe Dulles in Washington, DC suburbs.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Commercial aviation operates on specific routes and specific schedules. With a private jet you set the route and the schedule.
- mikl 7y ago
  There’s many more benefits. The ability to go (mostly) when you want, directly from one small local airfield to another, possibly significantly closer to your destination, a lot less security theater, a lot less waiting (waiting to board, waiting for the other passengers to board, waiting for luggage). It all adds up to a lot more convenience and time savings, never mind how fancy first class service you get on regular commercial flights. Especially if you’re going somewhere where’s there’s no direct flight option. Just a single connection flight will cost an hour or more.
NetBeck 7y ago
You'll need a helicopter to arrive at the airport faster.
unnouinceput 7y ago
1st rule of "How to Buy a Private Jet": be billionaire.
VengefulCynic 7y ago
By way of talking my own book, I would note that the experience of having a big-screen tv, surround sound, and your PS4 on the plane is nothing to sneeze at. As someone who puts in-flight entertainment systems in private jets, the only common thing I've seen in the ownership groups is an ability to afford the price tag. There are definitely a lot of buyers who are getting into this for time gains, but there are also buyers who are simply interested in privacy, luxury, or some peace and quiet. I ended up having to troubleshoot an in-flight issue on a ~$60 million private jet and the investment in sound-proofing insulation is totally worth it.
BlameKaneda 7y ago
I came across a Reddit post a while back and the user said that for whatever reason people of wealth were attracted to them. As a result, they were able to learn a lot about their lifestyles, habits, etc, on an intimate level that most of us wouldn't know. Based on the detailed information that OP provided, it wouldn't surprise me if it was true. They said that one of the most important factors for the ultra-wealthy was time. This involved wealthy individuals: - Hiring personal assistants (to run errands) - Hiring personal chefs (no time wasted cooking) - Owning a private jet (no time lost booking a flight, going through security, etc) We can't control the flow of time, but we can most certainly use it to our benefit. Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_insanely_wealthy_people_buy_that_ordinary/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_i...
- JorgeGT 7y ago
  Time is the ultimate luxury. I remember two separate reddit AMAs with centenarian women, who had lived from candle-lit houses and horse-drawn carriages to moon landings and the internet. When asked what was their favorite invention in their lives, both answered the washing machine. They suddenly had much more time for themselves!
  - heymijo 7y ago
    And electricity powers washing machines. Robert Caro masterfully paints the picture of what life was like in rural Texas for women making homes before their area was electrified. It wasn't just time saved. It was hard, physical labor that caused their bodies to break down that they were saved from. Really quite hard to fathom for any of us accustomed to growing up without that burden.
    - mjbellantoni 7y ago
      I remember this chapter vividly -- just one of many reasons to recommend Caro's epic biography of LBJ.
      - 7y ago
motohagiography 7y ago
What's weird to me is the value business puts on being physically present places. It's great to have the opportunity and serendipity of being somewhere, but you can get that flying commercial, even moreso flying coach. That it's the person sitting in the place that makes a decision go in a particular direction, and not just reasoning it though and using communications tech seems odd. If you need something, you need it. I don't see what's so complicated. What is that magic juice? On the other hand, I'm also watching a deal get scuttled right now because of the lack of personal introduction and relationship between the negotiating parties (it's online, and you can just see the value physically evaporating for lack of trust and reciprocity). But what's the difference? Is it just charisma?
- honestoHeminway 7y ago
  You can read people more closely, when you are physical there. You see the developer looking down, when you bring up tech debt, you can talk about stuff during breaks, and discover errors and culturally ingrained preconceptions that dont align. Lots of nuance, you would never see via remote. Some buisness partners dont directly say no, but instead telling you that a term is impossible by claiming they will get back to you on that. Also the strain of the negotiation makes both sides give up vital info over time - to just end it.
- CryptoBanker 7y ago
  In a lot of instances the difference is the respect your physical presence brings because of that time and effort travel takes
  - NullPrefix 7y ago
    Bareback horse ride from LA to a meeting in NY just for those extra respect points?
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Business negotiations and deals rely a lot on rapport and personal interactions. You just cannot get that by scheduling a one hour conf. call. You also get a much better feel and extract more information by being on site.
fortran77 7y ago
I've heard from medium-sized companies (and also people worth about $100MM) that they wish they had followed the "Three Fs Rule" "If it flies, floats or 'loves', you should rent it, not own it."
LanceH 7y ago
Just in time.
elymar 7y ago
Wendover Productions has an interesting video about the economics of private jets: https://youtu.be/jYPrH4xANpU https://youtu.be/jYPrH4xANpU
herodotus 7y ago
I once was a passenger on a billionaire owned private jet (he owned two). The owner picked me up in his rental (I worked for his son, the billionaire was visiting). We all drove to the back of the airport, almost right up to the plane. The pilot and co pilot were waiting for us. They loaded the luggage, and a rep from the car company took the keys to the rental. The jet owners wife had a pre-made tray of food with her. We climbed on board. The pilot said "all ready?" and off we went. Once airborne, the owner spread out a flat bed and slept. His wife served us some food. It wasn't just the time saved: if was the avoiding of all the hastles of airports: parking, line-ups, security, more line-ups. The owner had set up a leasing company for his two jets. Of course he had priority, and had to make sure that his planes were not leased out when he wanted them.
- tasuki 7y ago
  Why did he have two jets?
  - herodotus 7y ago
    He was not the only user: his companies execs used them too. There was a lot of travel between the UK and Canada.
    - tasuki 7y ago
      Makes sense - thanks!
herlitzj 7y ago
Not a single mention of the carbon footprint of a private jet. This has to be the single most selfish mode of transportation and is essentially inexcusable at this point in history.
- throwaway09412 7y ago
  Hospitals fly heart transplants across town because time is so important. Don’t undervalue the importance of time.
  - pier25 7y ago
    That's an edge use case.
- pier25 7y ago
  I agree but I don't see worth.com openly criticizing its audience.
- mac_was 7y ago
  I hope you only walk to work or Uni. Do you know the carbon footprint of bike, car, train production you use to travel?
- throwaway201999 7y ago
  Have you ever drove to the local grocery? If so, why didn’t you use a bicycle. A car vs a bicycle seems to me to be way more extreme than an individual flying on a personal jet to a location a commercial jet can’t access (people forgot that there’s exists 10s of thousands of remote small airports private planes, not commercial, can fly too that might otherwise require an indivisible to fly commercial to the local major airport and then drive another few hours to get too)
  - scepticalshrew 7y ago
    Driving to your local grocery and flying private are orders (plural) of magnitude different in terms of carbon footprint. If your local grocery is 10km away, you'll save ~2.5kg of C02 if you cycle instead of drive[1]. If you fly for three hours, you'll save ~700kg of C02 if you choose to fly commercial instead of private[2]. I don't see how the _former_ is "way more extreme". [1] https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/how-much-co2-does-cycling-really-save https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/how-much-co2-does-cycli... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/private-jets-environment-carbon-footprint-climate-change-harry-meghan-markle-a9071391.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/private...
MayeulC 7y ago
> centimillionaire That should be hectomillionnaire (hM, I guess?) if they meant ~100M. Otherwise it's just ~100k, which is above their minimal quoted expenses per annum.
- philsnow 7y ago
  OK I just did this because the words are fun to say: 1B is a kilomillion 100M is a hectomillion 10M is a decamillion / dekamillion 1M is a million 100k is a decimillion 10 is a centimillion 1k is a millimillion
pier25 7y ago
Why do people still travel for business meetings?
ksec 7y ago
If time is the reason why Private Jet succeed, I am going to guess BOOM [1] will succeed, cutting flying time by half is a lot. And is there any reason why all jet are so narrow, the point is they dont feel spacious at all. Is that the limits of Aerodynamics? [1] https://boomsupersonic.com https://boomsupersonic.com
- throwaway1777 7y ago
  They aren’t always as narrow as they look if you buy a big enough jet (an a380 is not narrow), but the main reasons are fuel efficiency, cabin pressurization efficiency, and ease of maneuverability on the ground.
lisper 7y ago
Owning a jet doesn't save you time. If you want to save time, you rent. In the late 1990s I was a newly minted private pilot and I decided to fly my (rented) Cessna 182 from El Monte, California to Santa Barbara to attend a conference. It didn't make any financial sense, I just did it because it was cool. With the overhead of getting to and from the airport it actually took me longer to get to the conference in the plane than it would have taken me to drive (and of course it cost about 5x as much). One of the other attendees also arrived in a private plane, and that was Charles Simonyi. It turned out that my little Cessna was parked next to his Falcon jet, so at the end of the conference I offered him a ride back to the airport, which he accepted. Simonyi got aboard his jet (after giving me a little tour) and I went to do my pre-flight. As I was doing that I heard the engines on Simonyi's plane spool up and down, up and down, and then shut down. Then the door opened and Simonyi got out, so I went over to see what was going on. "Disaster," he said. They had a red light on one of the engines. The plane was grounded. And he had to be in Hungary in 15 hours (or something like that) for a family member's wedding. I offered to fly him to LAX in my Cessna where he could pick up a commercial flight, but he declined. So I left him there, stuck at the airport like any ordinary shmoe. Many years later I learned about charter jets. If you have the coin, you can get a jet dispatched to you on demand. I have no idea why Simonyi didn't just do that. At the time I had no idea it was possible, so it didn't occur to me to ask. Chartering is both cheaper and more reliable than owning by wide margins. The only reason to own is so you can keep your toothbrush on the plane. But nowadays, with a laptop and a cell phone, location is pretty much irrelevant. There's not a whole lot of difference in terms of productivity between being at home or at the office and being in an airport lounge. So there is really no excuse for anyone to fly private unless you really need to pack in more site visits than commercial schedules will allow. That's not a whole lot of folks, and it's certainly not the CEO. If you're the CEO of the kind of company that can afford private jet money, people should be coming to you.
- manigandham 7y ago
  > "If you're the CEO of the kind of company that can afford private jet money, people should be coming to you." Renting makes sense but that line doesn't. CEOs aren't the boss, they serve their customers. They're often the face of the company and always the top salesperson. You go to your customers and keep them happy if you want to be in business, you don't demand they come to you. The bigger the company, the more the CEO tends to travel.
gist 7y ago
> In 1998, after years of legendary coach travel Part of this was also setting an example so the company would not have to pay for first class travel (or private) for other executives and/or employees. So the cost is much higher than just his ticket (or his private jet). What do you say to the VP's etc? So you suffer yourself in coach. It shows a certain bizarre frugality. > “he doesn’t think the company should be paying for it,” This goes to the point that I am making. When he did fly private he paid out of his own pocket so as not to create a circumstance that it was going to happen for others at the company.
aussiegreenie 7y ago
No sensible person "buys" a private jet. If it flys, floats or fucks- rent it....
010001001010 7y ago
A perfect compliment for my (tongue-in-cheek) private jet gift buyers guide: Gift Buying Guide: https://www.travelstatsman.com/03122018/best-private-jets-under-500-million/ https://www.travelstatsman.com/03122018/best-private-jets-un...
elvinsprop 7y ago
I've noticed a few ways to save when flying private, the best being www.jetmembership.com which provides wholesale prices for private jet flights. Normally folks use a broker who adds a markup but this flips it into a small membership fee to eliminate those unknowns.

137 points by RickJWagner 7y ago

I wonder if there is a way to connect with people who have private jets and wouldn't mind picking up a passenger on the way at a price? That might be able to lower the price point for private travel if people are willing to do that. This depends on whether the ones having private jets are even willing to have the hassle of random people joining their flights.

gambiting 7y ago
I imagine the issue you run into there is that at that point you are providing a paid service, which triggers different regulatory/insurance requirements. Just like you can't pick up paid passengers in your own private car when just driving somewhere, other than getting some money for petrol.
code4tee 7y ago
For charter flights things along those lines already exist. For example hopping a ride on empty leg repositioning routes. For truly private jet flights it can be trickier. Many truly private jets operate as private flight operations under part 91 of the FAA’s rules. That has a lot less red tape for a private operator but means they truly need to be a private operator and can’t pickup others for hire. Several startups have tried to get around the above via legal loopholes via ‘Uber for airplanes’ models and got shot down by the FAA.
- carrozo 7y ago
  “Shot down by the FAA” is a great tabloid headline. :)
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
bluGill 7y ago
Most of the safety advantages of flying over driving are in the extra training required for commercial operation.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Non-commercial corporate aviation flying twin jets also has an excellent safety record.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Such flights tend to have the same highly trained pilots as commercial flights.
johannes1234321 7y ago
People with private jets typically have them for privacy and flexibility. Taking strangers as passengers is defeating those purposes. However for small planes (Cessna etc.) pilots have to reach their flight hours and for financing that take passengers. Sometimes just for scenic round-trips. Sometimes over longer distances. Examples for sites arranging this (German examples) are https://flyt.club/ https://flyt.club/ https://www.mitflugzentrale.de/ https://www.mitflugzentrale.de/ or international https://www.wingly.io/ https://www.wingly.io/
pwython 7y ago
https://flyxo.com https://flyxo.com is a recent merger of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOJET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XOJET and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetSmarter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetSmarter
PappaPatat 7y ago
What I see happening here (Switzerland) is that pilots, who have issues reaching their mandatory minimum flying hours, are flexible and willing to take on passengers for cost price. That's not really Uber for planes, but it gets you places in a way that is often much more expensive otherwise.
rjsw 7y ago
Shared rides for aircraft, what could go wrong [1] ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-46_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_English_Channel_Piper_PA-...
manigandham 7y ago
This is rarely worth it. There are multiple companies that have tried this and it really comes down to you either being able to afford private jet travel or not. If you can't, you'll find that you're really just buying into hype more than actual productive travel. All of the arrangements will have strict conditions on passengers, luggage, arrival/departure times and many trips will only be 1-way so you're left finding your own way back, and that might be from small regional airport somewhere.

heyflyguy 7y ago

You can gain alot of time simply by getting your private pilot and instrument rating and buying a fast airplane. It need not be a Cirrus, for example. A well maintained 60s era Bonanza can get you halfway across the country in a few hours. Sure it's more expensive, but you can fly to an airport that is nearest to your business dealings, often borrow a "crew car" from the FBO in exchange for buying gas, and be home in time for dinner.

ginko 7y ago
>A well maintained 60s era Bonanza can get you halfway across the country in a few hours. The kind of plane Steve Wozniak had his famous crash with in 1981?
- sebcat 7y ago
  https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/220512 https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/220512 Beechcraft Bonanza A36TC
- mediaman 7y ago
  Yes. Though he only had 50 hours total time, and that plane - a relatively high speed, retractable, turbocharged piston - is way too much to handle for someone with only 50 hours. From accounts, it sounds like he stalled the plane on climbout. He claims his girlfriend leaned on the controls, which doesn't make a lot of sense, because leaning on the yoke would push the nose down, preventing a stall. Who knows what actually happened. But yes, a novice pilot with a fast, sophisticated plane is asking for trouble.
  - vonseel 7y ago
    50 hours is barely past the minimum for a PPL.
bluGill 7y ago
True, but is it worth it. Private pilots are enough of an additional risk that life insurance will charge extra if you are one. Commercial planes are safer than driving, but flying yourself it apparently not (of course this depends on lots of factors, practice and training being big ones). Besides, if you can afford a plane for trips like this the cost of hiring a pilot to fly your plane is in the noise and well worth is just so you can get something done.

krono 7y ago

Same way you buy a custom yacht, you tell your PA to sort it out :) Interesting article btw, there's a lot more to it than the title implies.

sails 7y ago

Hold your payment until the 12th Dec (UK election) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/04/call-for-ban-on-uk-private-jets-by-2025-as-flight-traffic-soars https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/04/call-for-ba...

telesilla 7y ago
If you want to splurge after jets are banned from the UK, try one of these 3-week jet getaways from the Four Seasons, only $160k.. https://m.fourseasons.com/privatejet/journeys/remote-wonders-2021/ https://m.fourseasons.com/privatejet/journeys/remote-wonders...

baybal2 7y ago

What they write is something weird. I did a website for a man who does luxury yacht rentals in China as a side project. He was somewhat close to that industry. I heard that very few people, even billionaires really own their jets. Leasing, rent, "uber," and club memberships are way more common. Second, you do not save time flying a private jet. He said he knew a number of CEOs who had more than enough money for a charter, but often had to fly economy class because it's the only ticket you can realistically buy same day on a minute notice. One said that arranging a private flight usually takes a week or more, and you have to be shuttled from a small, remote airport, adding hours to the trip. I can myself confirm the later as I once met Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo in an economy class! The later really tells that private charter doesn't really work anywhere but parts of US and Europe, and more being more of a shuttle service than real point to point transport.

jacobush 7y ago
It must depend. If you live close to the airport where your jet is, and you can fly above the corridors (13000 feet?), it must work. I worked at a "startup-ish" company which got their own jet, they sometimes took staff for a quick weekend trip to somewhere in the sun.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  The fuel burn on any turbine down low is eye-watering. Jets almost always fly far higher than the low arrival corridors. It’s problematic for some that are temporarily restricted from RVSM airspace (so are pinned down to 28K feet or lower). Even on a 45 minute hop, the jet will climb into the 20s.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Ooops I meant 13000 meters. AKA 40k feet or so.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>I heard that very few people, even billionaires really own their jets. Leasing, rent, "uber," and club memberships are way more common. Not surprising. The "three Fs" rule has fewer and fewer exceptions the higher the dollar amounts involved.

mothsonasloth 7y ago

Out of interest, what do you think the percentage of HackerNews users would have the the finances to buy a private jet?

FBISurveillance 7y ago
Assuming you mean buy and maintain, same as the percentage of world population that have the finances to buy a private jet.
- throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
  I think less than average. HN would, in my best guess, be much wealthier than average, but contain a smaller proportion of the super wealth required to (reasonable) purchase a private jet
- lucideer 7y ago
  I would say the percentage on HN is far far higher. The majority of HN are from the US/the anglosphere/wealthy western nations. A large percentage of HN are in a profession that pays above average (engineering). A smaller but I guess not insignificant percentage are investors. HN is in no way representative of the general population.
  - snowwrestler 7y ago
    I'm sure there are far fewer people on HN at the lower end of the global wealth scale, than in the global population. But it takes a lot of money to buy a jet. I would not be too sure that the very top of the global wealth scale is well-represented here, either. Dicking around on a web forum seems like a waste of time for someone with the means to live the life they want.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - cmdshiftf4 7y ago
    >I would say the percentage on HN is far far higher. >A large percentage of HN are in a profession that pays above average (engineering) Not related. Even if you're a director at Google pulling 1m a year in, you're not buying a private jet. Or, you're not unless you're reckless. The reason HN would have a far higher audience of people who own or have access to private jets is because a bunch of tech entrepreneurs who've really made it, such as the Collisons and Drew Houston, have come through here on their ascension and some of whom are still around.

cascom 7y ago

What’s funny is that if time is really the motivator, there are so many more cost efficient ways of gaining time then corporate aviation. And most of the people who use corporate aviation, haven’t optimized their time in other parts of their lives E.g. have a personal trainer come to your house everyday (as opposed to going to the gym), get a personal chef to cook your meals, move closer to work (or have work move closer to you),etc.

shin_lao 7y ago
>most of the people who use corporate aviation, haven’t optimized their time in other parts of their lives Everyone I know who flies private optimized their time way beyond what you described. Is your experience different?
- cascom 7y ago
  Definitely - 95% of the people I know who fly private don’t have chauffeurs (for example) - which would be a much greater time savings over the course of the year. I think it just shows that either a. The time argument is a rationalization or b. It’s socially more acceptable to spend money largely out of sight on corporate aviation, rather than having people in your everyday life see an enormous household staff
  - giarc 7y ago
    I wouldn't put having a chauffeur in the same category as flying private. Sure, having someone else drive you around allows you to make phone calls, check email in the back seat. But flying private allows you to set your schedule and not wait around for the next flight out. There is a video (and I believe it's linked in this thread) about a Walmart exec visiting stores across the country. It's likely in some small to medium sized town with a regional airport. If they meet with the team from 9-12 and the next flight out isn't until 5pm, they are wasting that time waiting. Instead they fly their plane in, meet, fly out at 12:15 and are in the next town with the next manager in 45 minutes.
    - 7y ago

StavrosK 7y ago

> While the evidence for this has been mostly anecdotal, a study published in 2017 by the National Business Aviation Association, the industry’s D.C.–based advocacy group, drew a correlation between companies in the S&P 500 that deploy business aircraft versus those that don’t; the users outperformed non-users by 70 percent. AKA the higher-performing companies could afford private jets. What is up with this spurious assumption of causation?

Someone1234 7y ago
The entire article's tone is about promoting private jet travel as a good thing, hardly surprising.
some_random 7y ago
Have you read the study? How do you know that they didn't control for this? Seems like a pretty spurious assumption.
- phreeza 7y ago
  You can't control for your dependent variable.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  The article says "the study found a correlation" and then promotes it to an assumption. One of their two sentences is wrong.
  - some_random 7y ago
    I mean the "higher-performing companies" part, I would assume any SP500 can buy a private jet if it chooses. Yeah, the article's obviously wrong.

base698 7y ago

NetJets and ExecJets do fractional ownership--also owned by Berkshire Hathaway. They are very common and almost always hear one on frequency when I'm flying around. I've heard it described as Uber for jets. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetJets https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetJets

ultim8k 7y ago

I believe that business aviation exists mainly because commercial aviation is not trustworthy. You book a flight and most of the times it's late for whatever reason or even canceled. It's also nearly impossible to find alternative flights for the same time if yours is canceled so you have to cancel or delay your business meeting.

marcosdumay 7y ago
Delays and cancellations aren't the norm everywhere. What is the norm worldwide is long intervals between getting into the airport and the airplane departure and between airplane arrival and one getting out of the airport. As a norm passengers waste at a minimum 2 hours before departure and 30 minutes after arrival.
- ultim8k 7y ago
  You are right about the time waste. I don't know about aviation in US but my experience in Europe has been the worst.
  - robohoe 7y ago
    It's pretty shitty in US depending on the airport. For example, I waste about an hour after arriving at O'Hare in Chicago. Since it's so big it takes a while to taxi to gate and get your bags. I haven't had that bad of an experience elsewhere in the US except maybe Dulles in Washington, DC suburbs.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Commercial aviation operates on specific routes and specific schedules. With a private jet you set the route and the schedule.
mikl 7y ago
There’s many more benefits. The ability to go (mostly) when you want, directly from one small local airfield to another, possibly significantly closer to your destination, a lot less security theater, a lot less waiting (waiting to board, waiting for the other passengers to board, waiting for luggage). It all adds up to a lot more convenience and time savings, never mind how fancy first class service you get on regular commercial flights. Especially if you’re going somewhere where’s there’s no direct flight option. Just a single connection flight will cost an hour or more.

NetBeck 7y ago

You'll need a helicopter to arrive at the airport faster.

unnouinceput 7y ago

1st rule of "How to Buy a Private Jet": be billionaire.

VengefulCynic 7y ago

By way of talking my own book, I would note that the experience of having a big-screen tv, surround sound, and your PS4 on the plane is nothing to sneeze at. As someone who puts in-flight entertainment systems in private jets, the only common thing I've seen in the ownership groups is an ability to afford the price tag. There are definitely a lot of buyers who are getting into this for time gains, but there are also buyers who are simply interested in privacy, luxury, or some peace and quiet. I ended up having to troubleshoot an in-flight issue on a ~$60 million private jet and the investment in sound-proofing insulation is totally worth it.

BlameKaneda 7y ago

I came across a Reddit post a while back and the user said that for whatever reason people of wealth were attracted to them. As a result, they were able to learn a lot about their lifestyles, habits, etc, on an intimate level that most of us wouldn't know. Based on the detailed information that OP provided, it wouldn't surprise me if it was true. They said that one of the most important factors for the ultra-wealthy was time. This involved wealthy individuals: - Hiring personal assistants (to run errands) - Hiring personal chefs (no time wasted cooking) - Owning a private jet (no time lost booking a flight, going through security, etc) We can't control the flow of time, but we can most certainly use it to our benefit. Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_insanely_wealthy_people_buy_that_ordinary/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2s9u0s/what_do_i...

JorgeGT 7y ago
Time is the ultimate luxury. I remember two separate reddit AMAs with centenarian women, who had lived from candle-lit houses and horse-drawn carriages to moon landings and the internet. When asked what was their favorite invention in their lives, both answered the washing machine. They suddenly had much more time for themselves!
- heymijo 7y ago
  And electricity powers washing machines. Robert Caro masterfully paints the picture of what life was like in rural Texas for women making homes before their area was electrified. It wasn't just time saved. It was hard, physical labor that caused their bodies to break down that they were saved from. Really quite hard to fathom for any of us accustomed to growing up without that burden.
  - mjbellantoni 7y ago
    I remember this chapter vividly -- just one of many reasons to recommend Caro's epic biography of LBJ.
    - 7y ago

motohagiography 7y ago

What's weird to me is the value business puts on being physically present places. It's great to have the opportunity and serendipity of being somewhere, but you can get that flying commercial, even moreso flying coach. That it's the person sitting in the place that makes a decision go in a particular direction, and not just reasoning it though and using communications tech seems odd. If you need something, you need it. I don't see what's so complicated. What is that magic juice? On the other hand, I'm also watching a deal get scuttled right now because of the lack of personal introduction and relationship between the negotiating parties (it's online, and you can just see the value physically evaporating for lack of trust and reciprocity). But what's the difference? Is it just charisma?

honestoHeminway 7y ago
You can read people more closely, when you are physical there. You see the developer looking down, when you bring up tech debt, you can talk about stuff during breaks, and discover errors and culturally ingrained preconceptions that dont align. Lots of nuance, you would never see via remote. Some buisness partners dont directly say no, but instead telling you that a term is impossible by claiming they will get back to you on that. Also the strain of the negotiation makes both sides give up vital info over time - to just end it.
CryptoBanker 7y ago
In a lot of instances the difference is the respect your physical presence brings because of that time and effort travel takes
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  Bareback horse ride from LA to a meeting in NY just for those extra respect points?
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Business negotiations and deals rely a lot on rapport and personal interactions. You just cannot get that by scheduling a one hour conf. call. You also get a much better feel and extract more information by being on site.

fortran77 7y ago

I've heard from medium-sized companies (and also people worth about $100MM) that they wish they had followed the "Three Fs Rule" "If it flies, floats or 'loves', you should rent it, not own it."

LanceH 7y ago

Just in time.

elymar 7y ago

Wendover Productions has an interesting video about the economics of private jets: https://youtu.be/jYPrH4xANpU https://youtu.be/jYPrH4xANpU

herodotus 7y ago

I once was a passenger on a billionaire owned private jet (he owned two). The owner picked me up in his rental (I worked for his son, the billionaire was visiting). We all drove to the back of the airport, almost right up to the plane. The pilot and co pilot were waiting for us. They loaded the luggage, and a rep from the car company took the keys to the rental. The jet owners wife had a pre-made tray of food with her. We climbed on board. The pilot said "all ready?" and off we went. Once airborne, the owner spread out a flat bed and slept. His wife served us some food. It wasn't just the time saved: if was the avoiding of all the hastles of airports: parking, line-ups, security, more line-ups. The owner had set up a leasing company for his two jets. Of course he had priority, and had to make sure that his planes were not leased out when he wanted them.

tasuki 7y ago
Why did he have two jets?
- herodotus 7y ago
  He was not the only user: his companies execs used them too. There was a lot of travel between the UK and Canada.
  - tasuki 7y ago
    Makes sense - thanks!

herlitzj 7y ago

Not a single mention of the carbon footprint of a private jet. This has to be the single most selfish mode of transportation and is essentially inexcusable at this point in history.

throwaway09412 7y ago
Hospitals fly heart transplants across town because time is so important. Don’t undervalue the importance of time.
- pier25 7y ago
  That's an edge use case.
pier25 7y ago
I agree but I don't see worth.com openly criticizing its audience.
mac_was 7y ago
I hope you only walk to work or Uni. Do you know the carbon footprint of bike, car, train production you use to travel?
throwaway201999 7y ago
Have you ever drove to the local grocery? If so, why didn’t you use a bicycle. A car vs a bicycle seems to me to be way more extreme than an individual flying on a personal jet to a location a commercial jet can’t access (people forgot that there’s exists 10s of thousands of remote small airports private planes, not commercial, can fly too that might otherwise require an indivisible to fly commercial to the local major airport and then drive another few hours to get too)
- scepticalshrew 7y ago
  Driving to your local grocery and flying private are orders (plural) of magnitude different in terms of carbon footprint. If your local grocery is 10km away, you'll save ~2.5kg of C02 if you cycle instead of drive[1]. If you fly for three hours, you'll save ~700kg of C02 if you choose to fly commercial instead of private[2]. I don't see how the _former_ is "way more extreme". [1] https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/how-much-co2-does-cycling-really-save https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/how-much-co2-does-cycli... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/private-jets-environment-carbon-footprint-climate-change-harry-meghan-markle-a9071391.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/private...

MayeulC 7y ago

> centimillionaire That should be hectomillionnaire (hM, I guess?) if they meant ~100M. Otherwise it's just ~100k, which is above their minimal quoted expenses per annum.

philsnow 7y ago
OK I just did this because the words are fun to say: 1B is a kilomillion 100M is a hectomillion 10M is a decamillion / dekamillion 1M is a million 100k is a decimillion 10 is a centimillion 1k is a millimillion

pier25 7y ago

Why do people still travel for business meetings?

ksec 7y ago

If time is the reason why Private Jet succeed, I am going to guess BOOM [1] will succeed, cutting flying time by half is a lot. And is there any reason why all jet are so narrow, the point is they dont feel spacious at all. Is that the limits of Aerodynamics? [1] https://boomsupersonic.com https://boomsupersonic.com

throwaway1777 7y ago
They aren’t always as narrow as they look if you buy a big enough jet (an a380 is not narrow), but the main reasons are fuel efficiency, cabin pressurization efficiency, and ease of maneuverability on the ground.

lisper 7y ago

Owning a jet doesn't save you time. If you want to save time, you rent. In the late 1990s I was a newly minted private pilot and I decided to fly my (rented) Cessna 182 from El Monte, California to Santa Barbara to attend a conference. It didn't make any financial sense, I just did it because it was cool. With the overhead of getting to and from the airport it actually took me longer to get to the conference in the plane than it would have taken me to drive (and of course it cost about 5x as much). One of the other attendees also arrived in a private plane, and that was Charles Simonyi. It turned out that my little Cessna was parked next to his Falcon jet, so at the end of the conference I offered him a ride back to the airport, which he accepted. Simonyi got aboard his jet (after giving me a little tour) and I went to do my pre-flight. As I was doing that I heard the engines on Simonyi's plane spool up and down, up and down, and then shut down. Then the door opened and Simonyi got out, so I went over to see what was going on. "Disaster," he said. They had a red light on one of the engines. The plane was grounded. And he had to be in Hungary in 15 hours (or something like that) for a family member's wedding. I offered to fly him to LAX in my Cessna where he could pick up a commercial flight, but he declined. So I left him there, stuck at the airport like any ordinary shmoe. Many years later I learned about charter jets. If you have the coin, you can get a jet dispatched to you on demand. I have no idea why Simonyi didn't just do that. At the time I had no idea it was possible, so it didn't occur to me to ask. Chartering is both cheaper and more reliable than owning by wide margins. The only reason to own is so you can keep your toothbrush on the plane. But nowadays, with a laptop and a cell phone, location is pretty much irrelevant. There's not a whole lot of difference in terms of productivity between being at home or at the office and being in an airport lounge. So there is really no excuse for anyone to fly private unless you really need to pack in more site visits than commercial schedules will allow. That's not a whole lot of folks, and it's certainly not the CEO. If you're the CEO of the kind of company that can afford private jet money, people should be coming to you.

manigandham 7y ago
> "If you're the CEO of the kind of company that can afford private jet money, people should be coming to you." Renting makes sense but that line doesn't. CEOs aren't the boss, they serve their customers. They're often the face of the company and always the top salesperson. You go to your customers and keep them happy if you want to be in business, you don't demand they come to you. The bigger the company, the more the CEO tends to travel.

gist 7y ago

> In 1998, after years of legendary coach travel Part of this was also setting an example so the company would not have to pay for first class travel (or private) for other executives and/or employees. So the cost is much higher than just his ticket (or his private jet). What do you say to the VP's etc? So you suffer yourself in coach. It shows a certain bizarre frugality. > “he doesn’t think the company should be paying for it,” This goes to the point that I am making. When he did fly private he paid out of his own pocket so as not to create a circumstance that it was going to happen for others at the company.

aussiegreenie 7y ago

No sensible person "buys" a private jet. If it flys, floats or fucks- rent it....

010001001010 7y ago

A perfect compliment for my (tongue-in-cheek) private jet gift buyers guide: Gift Buying Guide: https://www.travelstatsman.com/03122018/best-private-jets-under-500-million/ https://www.travelstatsman.com/03122018/best-private-jets-un...

elvinsprop 7y ago

I've noticed a few ways to save when flying private, the best being www.jetmembership.com which provides wholesale prices for private jet flights. Normally folks use a broker who adds a markup but this flips it into a small membership fee to eliminate those unknowns.