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Great White Sharks Are Terrified of Orcas
- jger15 7y agoTangent but this made me wonder if there are any pack-hunting birds. Apparently so: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-the-only-raptor-known-to-hunt-in-cooperative-packs/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-the-o...
- pbhjpbhj 7y agoYes, Harris hawks. I'm not sure how deep the analogy goes but a falconer told me that they "hunt like wolves".
- EndXA 7y agoThe study that this article is based on can be found here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39356-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39356-2 Abstract: > Predatory behavior and top-down effects in marine ecosystems are well-described, however, intraguild interactions among co-occurring marine top predators remain less understood, but can have far reaching ecological implications. Killer whales and white sharks are prominent upper trophic level predators with highly-overlapping niches, yet their ecological interactions and subsequent effects have remained obscure. Using long-term electronic tagging and survey data we reveal rare and cryptic interactions between these predators at a shared foraging site, Southeast Farallon Island (SEFI). In multiple instances, brief visits from killer whales displaced white sharks from SEFI, disrupting shark feeding behavior for extended periods at this aggregation site. As a result, annual predations of pinnipeds by white sharks at SEFI were negatively correlated with close encounters with killer whales. Tagged white sharks relocated to other aggregation sites, creating detectable increases in white shark density at Ano Nuevo Island. This work highlights the importance of risk effects and intraguild relationships among top ocean predators and the value of long-term data sets revealing these consequential, albeit infrequent, ecological interactions.
- robert_tweed 7y agoI only skimmed it, but it doesn't seem that they looked directly at whether the sharks actually fear Orcas per se. It is already known that white sharks flee whenever one of their own is killed by anything, which they can smell from some distance away. They remember to avoid that area for some time afterwards. "Great White Sharks are terrified of Orcas" suggests a higher level of intelligence than "Great White Sharks evolved to fear anything that can kill a Great White Shark". It seems that the study is less concerned with that mechanism and more with the fact that this kind of displacement leads to White Sharks occupying sub-optimal hunting grounds while Orcas get to go wherever they want.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- cmyr 7y agoThe article says that even if orcas pass through an area where the sharks are hunting, the sharks will leave the area and not return for months. It does not mention any sharks being killed.
- nrp 7y agoIs that that different from human fears? We’ve presumably also evolved to be instinctually afraid of categories of things capable of harming or killing us, like snakes and spiders. Our intelligence lets us more carefully sub-categorize these into things that actually can kill us (Black Widows and Cobras) from things that can’t (Orb Weavers and Rat Snakes). Even then though, running across a big shiny Orb Weaver or Rat Snake in the wild shakes loose something deep in your brain telling you to stay away.
- mr_toad 7y agoI’m not sure it takes much intelligence to feel fear. Many fears can be highly instinctive and even irrational.
- mattkrause 7y agoThe most common projection from the mouse retina is actually a highly-specialized and evolutionarily-conserved hawk detector. It responds to dark, looming stimuli against bright or grey backgrounds. This is one of my favorite discoveries: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/08/1211547109.full.pdf https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/08/121154710...
- sara1240 7y agohttp://bit.ly/34RK0Xa http://bit.ly/34RK0Xa
- protomyth 7y agoIsn't one of the theories of why the Megalodon went extinct was Orcas (or a relative) pack hunted the young into extinction?
- ajross 7y agoConsensus is that they were likely outcompeted by whales for sure, though mostly by relatives of modern sperm whales. I hadn't heard anything about predation by dolphins/orcas.
- kuprel 7y agoOrcas have the advantage of a mammalian brain. It's pretty crazy to think that an animal similar to a pig returned to the ocean and now dominates the environment
- tyingq 7y agoAlso, they weigh ~6 tons vs a great white at around 2.3 tons. And 4 inch teeth vs 2 inch teeth. And hunt in packs versus loners. Lastly, much faster...30mph vs 15mph. https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/01/63/62/17251480/15/rawImage.jpg https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/01/63/62/17251480/15/rawImage....
- pcurve 7y agothe speed difference is frightening. Almost seems unfair. No wonder sharks steer clear. If they're spotted, they're doomed.
- masklinn 7y ago> a great white at around 2.3 tons Did you confuse thousands of kgs and lbs? Because 2.3 tons is the unverified all-time record (with verified being 1.9), while 6t is a large orca and the all-time records was apparently around 10t.
- tyingq 7y agoAh, yes, though that just reinforces the point. Thanks.
- MrFoof 7y agoIt really reinforces why they're commonly referred to as, "killer whales". That's just not a fight nearly anything on earth wants to get into.
- dfc 7y agoThe name comes from the fact that Orcas kill other whales. Killing sharks does nothing to reinforce this.
- point78 7y agoLooks like the length of an orca and great white are exactly the same. I would have thought the orca to be much larger. Couldn't the great white turn the tables here?
- huffmsa 7y agoOrca rarely travel or work alone. They use group tactics.
- hprotagonist 7y agoSharks are solitary; orcas hunt in coordinated packs. 1 on 8 is not a good time no matter how big you are.
- wavefunction 7y agoPack-hunting tactics. Think about fighting one guy versus fighting even two or three guys of comparable size and capability.
- notacoward 7y agoComparable height, but each three times the weight. Even more eek.
- notacoward 7y agoNot really. Orcas are much chunkier than great whites. Even the rare great white that reaches the length of an average orca would be 1/3 the weight. I've seen video of an encounter between individual members of the two species, and it wasn't even a fight. The orca just grabbed the great white and flung it like a chew toy. The you add in the fact that orcas usually (but not always BTW) form and hunt in groups, and it's understandable why a great white would run away. There's no doubt that a great white is an impressive beast, but there are even more fearsome animals out there. Orcas for one. Sperm whales for another. Something bigger than giant squid that gets into fights with sperm whales and leaves horrific marks on their bodies. To the real heavyweight champions of the sea, a great white would be a snack.
- Tistel 7y agoOrcas working in teams to knock seals off an iceberg with waves: https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY So what can we conclude? Super smart, organized and no love for other mammals. I am amazed they only seem to go after humans in the sea world type scenario (film: Blackfish, shows the madness it induces in such animals). I don’t know of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd. They would be so scary to swim near.
- huffmsa 7y agoI'm pretty sure there isn't a single case of a wild orca going after a human without provocation. There are lots of recorded cases of them helping humans though https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_South_Wales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_S...
- Tistel 7y agoi waste too much time on YouTube. But there is another video of a snorkel diver lady who swears a whale (forget which species) protected her from a shark. It would be nice to think there is some mammal bro behaviour (flipper <-> Hand fist bump!) but evolution has altered our morphology so much I doubt they see us as distant relatives. It took humans ages to see the evolutionary connection from us to everything else. I know a lot of animal hunt mainly on smell. Maybe we smell related. Or taste bad. Or maybe they just find us sufficiently amusing not to merc us.
- 52-6F-62 7y agoI haven’t been lucky enough to encounter them but there are entire bays in Hawaii where only whale sharks will regularly go. Tiger and bull sharks will stay well away most of the time because of the dolphins and dolphins love people. I like to think that they think we’re all just loveable fools à la Douglas Adams.
- tekkk 7y agoAren't seals mammals? And in captivity, killer whales have a killed a few humans, dunno the total count. So I guess they just don't find humans that appetizing in the wild, or just haven't had the chance to try them out. I'm not sure how common it's for humans to swim in the same waters as killer whales. And isn't it quite rare for sharks to attack humans too?
- ksec 7y agoI looked up Killer whale on wiki. Killer whales are apex predators, as no animal preys on them. So what exactly is new in this paper?
- detaro 7y agoIt's worth not concentrating too much on the first paragraph of the article, which merely talks about a common cultural cliché and reading the rest, which answers your question. Also note that multiple species can be "apex predators" in an ecosystem.
- ksec 7y agoThe rest of the article suggest White Shakes will leave the area once Killer Whales appears. Isn't that the normal scenario of an apex predators appearance? Which is why I am asking, or is this a false assumption?
- kendallpark 7y ago> There's evidence to suggest that orcas use tonic immobility to prey on sharks. > In 1997, an Orca in the Farallon Islands was seen holding a White Shark upside down for 15 minutes. Whether intentional or not, the Orca likely caused the shark to enter tonic immobility. Defenceless, the shark, suffocated. This also happened again in 2000. > In New Zealand, Orcas also seem to use tonic immobility to hunt stingrays. Before attacking the orcas will turn themselves upside down. Then, holding the stingray in their mouth, they'll quickly right themselves. Flipping their prey upside down. https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility
- avip 7y agoI was taught to hold birds like that, TIL it has a name and it's a thing. IANAO, but it works on herons and pelicans.
- mizzao 7y agoIANAO = I am not an ornithologist?
- scbrg 7y agoPlease let it be I am not an orca!
- stjohnswarts 7y agothis seems most likely given the subject matter of the article and my exceeedingly accurate knowledge of human nature. tips fedora
- blotter_paper 7y agoPersonally, I think it would cooler if avip is an orca posting on HN.
- ummwhat 7y ago
- tyingq 7y agoFound an interesting article that suggests surfboards and wetsuits with the black and white orca belly pattern might deter sharks. https://www.nature.com/news/south-african-scientists-trial-humane-shark-deterrents-1.18346 https://www.nature.com/news/south-african-scientists-trial-h...
- tasuki 7y agoI bet they attract orcas though!
- mkagenius 7y agobut then what doesn't
- stjohnswarts 7y agoI find them attractive as well.
- daedalus_j 7y agoI recently listened to the audiobook "Beyond Words" by Carl Safina, I believe on the recommendation of an HN comment. If you're interested in the intelligence, empathy, and minds of animals, I can heartily recommend this book. The last third or so of the book covered Orcas (and some whales and dolphins) and it was pretty amazing. I particularly liked that he covered some of the stories that are not quite scientific in nature, while calling them out as such. The book will definitely leave you with the lingering feeling that minds and awareness are not quite as simple and clear cut as we might believe them to be.
- MR4D 7y agoMammals > fish. Not surprising.
- CalChris 7y agoA good book on great whites and the Farallon Islands is The Devil's Teeth. It covers the islands, the birds, seals and great whites but there's very little in it on orcas if I remember correctly.
- proee 7y agoI wonder if synthetic Orca sounds, played in the water, could be used to keep sharks out of a specific area?
- nradov 7y agoAcoustic shark repellents based on orca sounds are at least somewhat effective but aren't completely reliable. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/
- russellbeattie 7y agoI honestly thought the author was making a Hannibal Lector joke at first, which I thought was a bit morbid, until the next paragraph, where he expanded on the Orca's taste for shark livers. Turns out it's nature that's the morbid one. Wow. No wonder sharks scatter!
- shoo 7y agoHere's a short story about orcas, keeping orcas in captivity, and what might happen if we could figure out how to communicate... Peter Watts & Laurie Channer "Bulk Food": http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pdf http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pd...
- m3kw9 7y agoWhy isn’t there a movie about killer Orcas?
- cossatot 7y ago> Kent, a Canadian Game & Fisheries warden, tells the story of one hapless grizzly attempting to swim a channel. The distance was, perhaps, less than a mile. Mr. Bear was beavering away at the swim. Up the channel, the dorsal fins of a small pod of orcas sliced the water--two bulls, some females, and get. The whales spotted the bear first. The moms and pups held back, while the bulls circled in. The bear weighed his options. First he looked to the farshore and then he looked to the backshore. He rubbernecked back and forth. Realizing both were too far, he tried to paddle straight up like a missile coming out of a nuclear sub. The whales did not circle (after all, they're not sharks) and did not sprint. They simply swam for the grizzly. In seconds, Mr. Bear turned into a red oil slick. Robert H. Miller, Kayaking the Inside Passage.
- nickik 7y ago> that is, if there isn’t a remnant population of megalodon hidden somewhere in the deep I hate this kind of statement so much. Megalodon would be hunting in warm shallow water areas close to the coast. And they are defiantly not 'hidden somewhere in the deep'. If Megalodon existed, whales could not have grown as large as they did.
- avar 7y agoThey were already living in offshore areas: > "adult megalodon were not abundant in shallow water environments, and mostly inhabited offshore areas.[1]" They're also thought to have died out 3.6 million years ago. There's no suggestion that a descendant is still alive, but that's plenty of time for such a lineage to evolve to specialize in deepwater environments. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology
- pgt 7y agoThis has implications for wetsuit and surfboard design in repelling sharks.
- lmilcin 7y agoIsn't it a standard pattern of when somebody who is bullying others constantly is very bad at dealing with a bigger bully because they don't have much experience with somebody standing up to them successfully?
- mark_l_watson 7y agoI agree with the sharks. I have been SCUBA and free diving many times and seen sharks, and it is a thrill, but no fear. As I have written on HN before, once when I was 10 miles offshore in a small Columbia 22 sailboat and Orca (killer whale) jumped four times high out of the water landing right next to my boat, violently rocking it. Yes, I felt fear.