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Amazon Go Cashierless Supermarkets, Pop-Up Stores Coming Soon
- trenning 7y agoI've enjoyed the convenience of the Go stores since they opened, but one thing that's popped into my head is how 'classist' this type of store is, especially in a city like Seattle where they started. To be allowed into the store requires a few prerequisites which unfortunately not everyone has the benefit of possessing; smart phone with data service, credit card, amazon account. For most people this is no problem. But what about all the people who rely on cash based systems to exist? What about people who don't have smart phones with internet plans (though this is becoming an increasingly small population, it's still very prevalent)? Now what happens to those people when this becomes a standard and the alternative options diminish? Food deserts in underserved (poor) neighborhoods are already wide spread in the US, this credit based system which relies on an app will only make it harder for people who already suffer.
- pkaye 7y agoThe same problem exists for Uber/Lyft and food delivery services.
- cle 7y agoThe same problem exists for most advancements, it's not a new problem. You could say the same thing about cars, for example.
- sithadmin 7y agoThere's an easy answer that's already prevalent in markets like Japan - just accept the local transit card as a payment option. It's something you can obtain with almost no regulatory friction whatsoever, and top off with cash easily. Likewise, it's treated like a cash payment at quick service restaurants, grocers, convenience stores, and many other types of retailer. The one problem Amazon would have here is preventing customers from leaving if their purchase exceeds their cash balance on the card. Seems relatively easy to stop with a 2-step system for exiting (cross a line/barrier to signal that you're leaving, wait for a physical barrier to open after the payment method is debited).
- BurningFrog 7y agoI think the whole business idea rests on Amazon knowing who you are and having access to your CC, to make theft hard.
- hef19898 7y agoNice side effect, that is true!
- ignoramous 7y agoIt doesn't strictly have to be that. The prepaid/debit/credit/charge card w/ NFC one uses to enter the premise can be the one that's charged against when one leaves. The card issuer can notify you of the charges once Amazon posts them. Amazon can verify for card-fraud as they already have tracking hardware installed.
- skybrian 7y agoSeems like you could say the same of Costco's membership fee? Or a store being in a place that's not easy to walk to?
- opnitro 7y agoYes you could. In fact there are laws requiring you make your stores handicap accessible.
- wyre 7y agoYou can pay cash as costco
- beatgammit 7y agoYou still have to have a membership unless you have a Costco cash card or go with a friend, and $60 or whatever upfront can be too much for many people. Also, it's a bit more expensive per visit since you need to buy in bulk. That being said, we have plenty of grocery stores in my area and they seem to compete quite well with Costco. I am not worried about these stores, and I don't plan on using them because I find them to be a privacy issue. I think there are plenty of people who either prefer cash or don't want to tie their food purchases to their Amazon account to keep traditional grocery stores in business.
- PopeDotNinja 7y agoBeing poor is expensive.
- judge2020 7y agoI think you are being too optimistic with the last sentence. Whenever there is a tangible benefit that only has "mostly unseen" downsites, such as food prices being low since you're subsidizing Amazon training their rekognition software, people will take that benefit since the downside doesn't mean much to them (at least in the moment). Most people see their grocery bill going down non-unsubstantial amounts and take that as a good tradeoff for having cameras and sensors figure out what you're putting in your bag, and then later seeing that grocery visit in your Amazon order history.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoCan Amazon Go stores take EBT cards (aka food stamps)? I imagine not… even if they could process the payments, how would they enforce the restrictions on what food stamp recipients are allowed to buy?
- aianus 7y agoThey could take EBT and a credit/debit card at the same time and put only the eligible products on the EBT.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoIs someone on EBT really going to have a credit card?
- grandmczeb 7y agoLots of people on EBT have credit cards, it’s not like you need to be in extreme destitution to quality.
- mattigames 7y agoThe same thing happened when commercial airplanes started, only the rich could afford tickets at the beginning, later they became affordable, so it's possible something similar well happen with automated stores.
- scarface74 7y agoIt didn’t just happen. Government deregulation of airlines made it happen. But people are screaming for just the opposite with stores that don’t accept cash. They want government intervention.
- BurningFrog 7y agoThis is a pretty epic Slippery Slope Argument. These stores are now < 0.1% of all stores. Worrying about what might go wrong if/when they're 90% seems very premature.
- beatgammit 7y agoLike with most things, poor people make up a bit enough portion of the population that stores will always cater to them. Also, plenty of people value their privacy more than convenience, and those people won't shop at these Amazon stores. Just look at Amazon.com vs Walmart, Walmart is still in business, even though running a brick and mortar store is more expensive than an online store.
- Retric 7y agoOnline is not always a net gain for the retailer. For something like 24 packs of water at Walmart it’s simpler to ship several pallets to one location and have people so last mile delivery to their house than to ship it directly to them. It’s largely shoplifting and floorspace that’s in online stores favor, but that’s only part of the equation.
- bahmboo 7y agoYou can enter without a phone and pay for items with cash. I found this information on the internet. But feel free to have a 20 deep discussion about it.
- Akababa 7y agoI think the answer is not to hold back progress, but to address the pain points as they arise. As for the specific concerns of going "cashless", there are many countries with lower standard of living (Venezuela, China) than the US but near-ubiquitous cellphone payments, so I don't see this as a difficult problem to solve.
- privateSFacct 7y agozimbabwe is going bust - super high inflation, but ecocash (a mobile money platform) is THE way folks pay. Part of this is security - walking around with lots of cash / keeping it at home (which may be a shared room) is just not workable.
- all_blue_chucks 7y agoAmazon accounts are free. Surely you must complain much more vocally about Costco, Sam's Club, and other retailers that literally charge you money for the rights to shop there, right?
- aaronbrethorst 7y agoAmazon Go stores are located in very dense urban areas and—if successful—will drive out the 7-11s and other convenience stores in the area that accept cash. Costco, Sam's Club, and other similar 'big box' stores are usually located in less-dense areas and are not competing directly with 7-11s or other convenience stores.
- all_blue_chucks 7y agoSo you're saying a person needs to be wealthy enough buy a car AND a membership to shop there?
- aaronbrethorst 7y agoI like the way that you’re moving the goalposts and trying to throw me off balance with this argument. Hope you have a great night.
- StuffedParrot 7y ago....whataboutism....
- grandmczeb 7y ago> smart phone It’s not hard to get a cheap smartphone (something like 60-80% of homeless people own a smartphone based on a quick google) and if you qualify for SNAP, you can almost certainly get a free smartphone through the lifeline program. > data service Amazon Go stores have free WiFi. > credit card Edit: Originally stated you can use gift card credit, but that’s incorrect. You can get a secured card with no credit check though. > amazon account Free and obviously easy to get if you have access to the internet, which virtually everyone does through a public library.
- scarface74 7y agoJust for reference, 81% of Americans have smart phones. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-ownership-is-growing-rapidly-around-the-world-but-not-always-equally/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/02/05/smartphone-own... 75% of Americans have credit cards. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-statistics.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/ownership-stati... 10% of Americans use only cash. https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-statistics-1276.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/payment-method-...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- topkai22 7y agoBut for perspective, 10% is a large portion of the population. As a population subgroup, Asian Americans only account for 7% of the US population.
- scarface74 7y agoMy purpose wasn’t to argue either way, I just wanted to add numbers to the discussions.
- ohbleek 7y agoJust for more clarity then: 62.7 million Americans don’t have smart phones 82.5 million Americans don’t have credit cards 33 million Americans use only cash Another way to look at it The equivalent of the entire population of the United Kingdom not having smart phones The entire population of Germany not having credit cards Nearly the entire population of Canada using only cash
- scarface74 7y agoAre you basing that calculation on the total population or just adults?
- StuffedParrot 7y agoWait, they don’t accept cash? How is that legal?
- mantap 7y agoIt's usually only obligatory to accept cash for settling a debt, e.g. if you have eaten in a restaurant, the restaurant is obliged to accept cash, because you can hardly give back the food you already ate (at least in the same form). But if you are at McDonalds, there's no obligation for them to accept cash because you pay upfront.
- seltzered_ 7y agoI haven't stepped into a Amazon Go store yet, but the tradeoffs in requiring an account/app have been on my mind after experiencing the new Seattle Target in Ballard. It's entirely self-checkout (with an assistant or two there), but the dystopian part during the self-checkout process is an LCD monitor and camera right above you showing your face with "RECORDING IN PROGRESS" above. The Amazon Go convenience store at 920 5th Avenue (looking from the outside) felt a bit sad in their dining setup - it's a tiny bar that seemed designed for quick, alone consumption. I'm guessing most folks going there grab a lunch then go back to their office to eat. (image: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122.331131,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipM-tChpZh5n6ct5vpOKkGqY3lylwxj2J_rFMNGw%3Dw203-h135-k-no!7i5760!8i3840!4m8!1m2!2m1!1samazon+go!3m4!1s0x0:0x50ced0dc2ff24214!8m2!3d47.6063186!4d-122.3311302?hl=en https://www.google.com/maps/place/Amazon+Go/@47.6063189,-122... )
- daseiner1 7y agoGiven the makeup and general behavior of the Seattle population you describe, I’m quite confident deterring them from visiting was absolutely intentional by Amazon
- faissaloo 7y ago>credit card Is this to the exclusion of debit cards?
- esotericn 7y agoAren't supermarkets in the US already subdivided anyway? In the UK we have at least three tiers of supermarket. You're not going to see the riff raff in Waitrose because they can't afford it. "Above" that you have more esoteric health shops. You might see middle-class folk who are cost-conscious (waves) in the low end supermarkets. Pound shops and discount retailers tend to have a specific style - music, decor etc - that reinforce the fact that they're 'poor people stores'. Sure, theoretically you could go and buy your groceries in the expensive stores if you're skint, but in practice no-one actually does that.
- markus_zhang 7y agoJust curious if we have any statistics about how much time is saved per consumer? TBH I don't feel particularly happy about programmers removing retail jobs. Yeah for sure technology advances always remove some people from their jobs, but there are consequences.
- stoops 7y agoWhat jobs are okay to remove next for you? What makes one job more okay to remove than another?
- eyjafjallajokul 7y agoDisclaimer: I work for Amazon but not for Go. Not sure about data on time saved, but I average 2-5 minutes on each trip to the Go store in Seattle. As for removing retail jobs, Amazon does hire a ton of people for every store to restock, answer questions, prepare deli foods, etc. So the jobs are likely moving to different parts of the store. Also, I’m not sure what the official goals of Go are, but I always thought it was to remove friction during checkout. Not to save costs on cashier jobs.
- ronilan 7y agoDisclaimer: I don't work for Amazon. They didn't want to hire me. > I’m not sure what the official goals of Go are but I always thought it was to remove friction during checkout. I visited the Seattle store one evening in April while in town for an Amazon onsite. It was completely empty from customers but there was a dude sitting at the entrance to the alcohol isle asking for ids and a girl trying to fit some products into some curly thing. Friction is (re)moved from point a to point b. Classic 2010s tech play.
- defertoreptar 7y ago> As for removing retail jobs, Amazon does hire a ton of people for every store to restock, answer questions, prepare deli foods, etc. So the jobs are likely moving to different parts of the store. Is it fair to say that you are making the claim that there is no net decrease in labor hours when compared to a similar store that does staff cashiers?
- joezydeco 7y agoI was a pretty regular user of the Go store near my commuter train home. Lately there are numerous items at my store that have gone out of stock, some of them for a few weeks now, and telling them about it gets a shrug and a "sorry, 'corporate' controls inventory" response. Not sure what 'corporate' means here but okay. Long story short - Go is a fun thingy but I don't think they're ready for retail. I deleted my app.
- skunkworker 7y agoIn contrast whenever I’m at Trader Joe’s and they are out of an item and I ask, they’ll usually tell which truck it’ll be on within a day or two.
- sargram01 7y agoInteresting, at my Trader Joe’s they always ask, and when I do say I couldn’t find something they just shrug and apologize. Ironically this is the TJ’s up the hill from the new Go store mentioned.
- Klinky 7y agoTrader Joe's is a bad example, they are notorious for discontinuing items that never return to shelves. This behavior is referenced in this old viral video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdB7GDZY3Pk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdB7GDZY3Pk
- inferiorhuman 7y agoThey discontinue plenty of things, but the employees are more helpful and more informed than the Amazon example.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> Not sure what 'corporate' means here but okay. They mean someone outside the store manages it. Someone who manages across the corporation rather than just at the retail location.
- remarkEon 7y agoAirports make a lot of sense to me. Movie theatres kind of do. Supermarkets don’t. If I squint hard enough I can see it working (I’ve been to the Go store a couple times and it is indeed a great if weird experience), but food like vegetables seems harder to do this with than prepackaged sandwiches and sodas. How do you handle things that are priced by weight? For example potatoes, or steak. Make the customer print a label with a QR code the cameras can read? That sounds like a terrible experience, and the “solve” is more packaging and trash - something Amazon already causes a lot of.
- s3krit 7y agoHere in Germany, it's common to weigh goods that are priced by weight and then have a sticker printed out to stick on them for the cashier. I don't see printing a QR code or whatever weird mechanism Amazon uses to price items being much more complex
- remarkEon 7y agoInteresting. I am skeptical that US consumers would have the discipline to do this. Maybe another way to solve this problem would be adding a weigh station next to each SKU (or group of SKUs), and then the station logs the weight in the app as the customer puts the item in their bag?
- sithadmin 7y agoMeijer (US megastore retailer that competes against Walmart in the American midwest, though generally has slightly higher prices and higher quality items) has introduced this recently with app-based self-checkout, and it's picking up adoption at a fairly quick pace. Another huge regional grocer, HEB, does this in Texas with their largest and most upscale stores, and it's been a norm for nearly a decade.
- jiofih 7y agoThat’s also common, in the self-checkout machines. Instead of scanning the barcode you just drop the item on the surface and select it on the screen.
- neonate 7y agohttps://outline.com/wxesVr https://outline.com/wxesVr
- Jam-B 7y agoLike it, or not, this is the future of retail.
- jiofih 7y agoAs an European, Amazon Go seems like extreme over-engineering, with its vision-based system and all. I can already quickly scan items as I put them in my basket, either using a handheld scanner you pick up at the entrance, or my own mobile phone. You can also do it all at once in the self-checkout station. It already takes little to no time, and simply adding a very fast barcode reader to the basket itself or RFID would completely eliminate any time spent there. Payment takes five seconds with contactless / Apple Pay. Most small supermarkets already have only one or two cashiers working at any time.
- imtringued 7y agoThis only works if you add RFID tags to every product and then have an RFID gate as checkout.
- Klinky 7y agoVision system replaces cashier and loss prevention. Plus I imagine just grabbing stuff lowers the barrier to sale, versus having to scan each item and acknowledge the cost.
- X6S1x6Okd1st 7y agoImo The point is to reduce friction and variance for the consumer, not necessarily reduce the # of employees
- sithadmin 7y agoThis was how I felt about Amazon Go...until I tried Amazon Go. I had previously tried other markets with handheld UPC scanners or mobile device scanning, but still ended up with delays I'd rather avoid (passing through the queue at self-checkout). Amazon Go really is completely effortless once you have checked in to the store, although doing things like putting items into your own backpack while shopping feels...very weird. But being able to waltz out the door with zero delays is a true luxury in urban areas where markets almost always have long queues for checkout (regardless of if they have a human attendant or not).
- remarkEon 7y ago
- dillondoyle 7y agoWow if they can convince their competition to use the system, and they can use that data, that would be hugely valuable. Not just for grocery/online sales but I'm thinking of data use for their fast growing ad network.
- paggle 7y agoI went to Amazon Go because it was cool but the food was absolutely inedible.
- ilaksh 7y agoI wish they would open one in Playas de Tijuana.
- Bostonian 7y agoRaising the minimum wage to $15 and higher will hasten cashiers being replaced by machines. In the unionized grocery store I patronize, where there was recently a strike, they have reduced the numbers of cashiers and increase the number of self-checkout stations.
- vibrolax 7y agoIn sympathy with labor, my wife refuses to use self checkout systems. She says they're not paying her to do that job. When store managers or employees attempt to direct her to the automat, she refuses and lets them know why. They've told her she isn't the only one who prefers humans at the check out.
- judge2020 7y agoI think it's fair to say they are paying her to do the bagging in the form of "lower prices" as a result of paying for less employees, but I get the concern.
- judge2020 7y agoWalmart has done this near where I live. Previously where there was maybe 10-12 manned checkout stations, there are now about 12 or so small self checkout stations and 12 large checkout stations with a lot of room for bags. There are still maybe 10 manned checkouts, but only a few are open at any time so the quickest option is usually the self checkout.
- daenz 7y agoI went to an Amazon Go store for the first time recently. I grabbed some sushi and a wrap, and it was surprisingly tasty and inexpensive. For the location and quality, it made me think they have to be taking a loss (or just breaking even) on the products. The store itself was nice enough. But it was small, and felt like a novelty, like a lab experiment and not an actual convenience store. As a software engineer, I was also keenly aware of the massive array of tracking technology all around me, and that didn't feel great. I don't really have any complaints. It was convenient, but not "oh wow this changes my life" convenient. If this kind of technology pushes down the prices (though that's honestly hard for me to see how), that will be a benefit.
- jcims 7y agoI had the same impression of the one in Seattle. Small, weird, good quality, suspiciously great prices.
- dugditches 7y agoGuess they're going the Costco loss leader hotdog route.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y agoExcept it’s a store that sells only hotdogs in that scenario?
- jcims 7y agoI don't know if everybody understands the Costco 1.50 hot dog. It's the great dane of hot dogs. It's a meal by itself.
- jdkee 7y agoI wonder how well these will do with the grab-and-go gangs that are currently working higher end retail in Chicago. Do they have reasonable security or simply depend on cameras to identify perps?
- jjtheblunt 7y agoOne can't enter without authenticating with an identity, so steal all you want, and you'll be "billed" later, like by the police, i imagine.
- judge2020 7y agoI think I remember seeing (from the initial wave of news) that they tell you not to intentionally try to obfuscate or trick the system, but if you pick up a product and it doesn't correctly track it, it's yours (but you should report it so they can improve tracking).
- turtlebits 7y agoNot sure what these gangs are going to do with convenience store items. As far as I can tell, there is no cash or even a register.
- halfjoking 7y agoThe busier the Amazon Go store the more employees are on-site. The one in the West Loop is right next to the trains and sees a lot of traffic during rush hour. So they have 4+ employees just standing around watching people. The ones at random locations in the loop aren't as busy - so only have a couple employees in those stores. Actually I think it's weird that Amazon has so many employees in Go stores. You'd think they'd just need 1 person to stock things and call the police if someone jumps over the gate without scanning their phone. Every time I see a group of their employees standing around I want to ask "why haven't any of you been replaced by robots yet?"
- jvagner 7y agoAt my office there’s a fridge with a card reader. You can take whatever you want out of the fridge after swiping your card. There’s breakfast and lunch and snack items in the fridge. Some company has already replicated the Amazon Go model for a use case that ... I would argue ... makes more sense. (Unless they were first)
- cbnotfromthere 7y agoHow would the fridge know how much to charge the card?