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Tesla’s competitors find that going electric has its own set of problems
- pascalmahe 7y agoMy French bias is going to show but I wonder how Renault's Zoe is doing. It's been out for 6 years. Granted, Renault is completely absent from the US market and the car is uh... really not marketable for the US (it's tiny).
- clouddrover 7y agoIt's sold 35k units so far in 2019 up to September: http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/10/global-top-20-september.html http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/10/global-top-20-september... And there's a new revision of the Zoe coming out soon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64iJj3HTnMQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64iJj3HTnMQ
- baq 7y agoi've been driven in one and it was very surprising how nice it was; the price was completely prohibitive though.
- thefounder 7y agoI don't believe Renault makes Zoe to sell. They make the model for compliance with EU regulations.
- moccachino 7y agoI'm curious, how do the regulations incentivize making a model that they don't really need to sell much of?
- fstephany 7y agoFrom what I understand, carmakers have average emissions quota across their whole range (95g/km of CO by 2021). Having electric vehicles in the range is a way to meet the quota even if they don't sell really well.
- moccachino 7y agoOh ok, I'd heard about the emissions quota, but I always thought it wasn't a simple average of the offered range, but was surely weighted by sales.
- yorwba 7y agoIt is weighted by number of new registrations: https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/average-co2-emissions-from-new https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/average-co2-emissions-f... If a car manufacturer actually makes and registers low-emission cars just to keep the average of their fleet down, there's not really a point in just having them sit around collecting dust, so they might as well sell them.
- isoprophlex 7y agoReally? Aren't sales numbers way too high for this strategy? Like, multiple tens of thousands sold? Compare this to the ridiculous fiat 500e at barely 2k sold...
- harperlee 7y agoMadrid has zoes for carsharing through the zity app and frankly they are perfect for the city and nearby roads.
- xedeon 7y agoNot too good I'm afraid. Renault is already FCF negative. https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/10/18/renault-facing-troubles-in-many-areas-autos-expert-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/10/18/renault-facing-trouble... Their long time partner Nissan is facing troubles too: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-25/nissan-s-pain-worsens-as-99-profit-drop-forces-deeper-job-cuts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-25/nissan-s-...
- random_kris 7y agoI've test drived Renault Zoe. It was my first electric car driving expirience and I was amazed... Too bad it doesn't offer enough for its price.
- clouddrover 7y ago> Back to Tesla: According to an equity research paper by Jefferies, it is the only company that doesn’t share the misfortune of its competitors. Maybe. They're being investigated for battery fires: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29666731/nhtsa-investigation-tesla-fire-reports/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29666731/nhtsa-investigat... Telsa has reduced the battery capacity of some Model S's and X's. There's a class action in progress to at least clarity the reduction in capacity and get some kind of remedy from Tesla. If Tesla has done it for safety reasons and not reported that to the NHTSA then Tesla could be in for some fines: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/sudden-loss-of-range-with-2019-16-x-software.154976/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/sudden-loss-of-range... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-battery/tesla-owner-lawsuit-claims-software-update-fraudulently-cut-battery-capacity-idUSKCN1UY2TW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-battery/tesla-owner...
- rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago>They're being investigated for battery fires No, they aren't: https://twitter.com/VGrinshpun/status/1191187275394228226 https://twitter.com/VGrinshpun/status/1191187275394228226
- clouddrover 7y agoRead the articles.
- xedeon 7y agoThe Twitter thread that was linked contains factual NHSTA info. "@russ1mitchell of LA Times wrote the article in which he claimed that NHTSA launched investigation into Tesla fires, later changing “investigation” to probe. This is FALSE. NHTSA initiated analysis of the Petition and rebuked Russ Mitchell for disinformation."
- clouddrover 7y agoRead the articles. They link to a PDF of the letter from the NHTSA to Tesla which outlines exactly what they're doing. You don't think the NHTSA is collecting documentation from Tesla for the fun of it, do you?
- mack1001 7y agoI have been following Tesla closely for the last 5 years. The amount of FUD has been astounding considering no other car manufacturer has managed to launch a mass market electric car. Analysis after analysis say that competition is right around the corner or NIO is going to beat Tesla. Question is If these misleading articles/statements are ethical?
- rapsey 7y agoFUD against a company is directly correlated to the amount of short positions against them. > Question is If these misleading articles/statements are ethical? The worlds media are quite unburdened by ethics.
- threeseed 7y agoNissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Ioniq, Hyundai Kona, BMW i3, VW e-Golf, Audi e-Tron, Mercedes EQC, Renault Zoe, Jaguar i-Pace etc. Are they not mass market cars ? Hyundai Kona is outselling every Tesla model combined in some EU countries so I would consider them mass market.
- PuffinBlue 7y agoAnd the Kona would be selling more if they could make it faster. How do I know this? Because I would have bought one (so technically they've have sold at least one more!) but it's a 12 month lead time right now. They even briefly removed the option a few months ago to order from their website - it may be back now but I think it doesn't mention the delay in getting the car. The turning point really is here for a lot of us with driveways. EDIT - nope it's still un-orderable. Just the link to join the waiting list.
- xedeon 7y ago> Hyundai Kona is outselling every Tesla model combined in some EU countries so I would consider them mass market. Citation needed. Model 3 alone is outselling all other EVs in EU even with the logistical constraint of having to ship them by sea. https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-tesla-model-3-has-instantly-become-europes-best-selling-ev/ https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-tesla-model-3-has-insta...
- threeseed 7y agoI find these type of articles hilarious because they treat EV cars as though they are a gaming PC where all that matters is specs. Completely oblivious to the fact that people don't buy cars based just on specs. Intangibles like brand, design, experience, feeling, handling etc are often just as if not more important. For example no Porsche Taycan buyer is ever going to choose a Model 3/S just because it has a few extra kilometres of range.
- imglorp 7y agoAlso the organizations involved. Of course in this case you might be trading one shitty dealer dinosaur experience for a new, shiny, curated, walled garden.
- threeseed 7y agoActually you can spec and order a Porsche online just like a Tesla.
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- zhdc1 7y agoIt depends on how much the range difference is at the end of the day, and if you trust Tesla or Porsche more to deliver on future battery tech (not talking about a Tacyan vs. Model S comparison, but a company vs. company comparison). Tesla has a large advantage in this that is at least partially in house (judging from their willingness to expand production from Panasonic to LG and now CATL).
- threeseed 7y ago1. Porsche Taycan charges significantly faster than any Tesla so batteries/range isn't as useful an advantage. 2. You completely missed the point. Porsche drivers aren't looking for an economical car just as Hyundai drivers probably won't find much use for a dash stopwatch.
- zhdc1 7y agoManufacturers are playing from behind & are worried about it. I'm aware of at least one (I won't mention who it is, but it's not particularly hard to guess) who is funding a number of studies on how to capture market share in this segment as a late entrant. You're also starting to see a lot of concern about the economic/social impact that electrification is going to have - it's mentioned in the linked article, but electric vehicles require a lot less labor to manufacture. Assuming that the traditional players in this industry even survive the switch to electric vehicles, you're going to see a lot of layoffs as all of this plays out.
- cjhopman 7y ago> electric vehicles require a lot less labor to manufacture That's awesome! But I'm confused... why do Tesla's cars take so much more man hours to manufacture than other cars then? If electric cars take less labor and everybody knows that Tesla is lightyears ahead of all those dinosaur traditional manufacturers, wtf are Tesla's employees spending their time on?
- zhdc1 7y agohttps://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/electric-vehicles-pose-real-risk-autoworkers-halving-number-people-required-n1060426 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/electric-vehicles-pos... Think component suppliers. Electric cars require a lot less parts, which is going to hurt component suppliers & the people who work for them a lot.
- rco8786 7y agoSemi guess here. But OP maybe meant that electric motors require less labor to manufacture more specifically. Tesla’s come up to speed on actual mass manufacturing of the vehicles themselves has resulted in a lot of manual work that other big manufacturers would have been able to automate. This was a big “scandal” with the Model 3...where it was reported that some things were being done by hand that normally wouldn’t be
- zhdc1 7y ago
- raxxorrax 7y agoA few years ago our city had introduced electric buses. These were quite awesome and significantly reduced noise pollution. Most noise actually comes from tires instead of motors nowadays with the exception of slow speed acceleration, where buses can be extremely loud. Recently electric buses seem to have vanished again. I think that was due to a fire that happened and the reliability was lower than their diesel counterparts (I think it was 90%, compared to 98%). Very sad about that they are gone again. We see a lot of Teslas here. It was pretty hyped and you had to wait a long time to get one. I don't believe that the unilateral market dominance of Tesla will be kept on the current level to be honest. In recent days you see more and more smaller city cars.
- zhdc1 7y agoIt's not going to, but they don't need to maintain their position. Tesla's advantage over everyone else is their ability to mass-manufacture quality battery packs. As long as they can be the first company to integrate advancements in range/reliability (and don't have to worry about manufacturing capacity constraints), they can walk into pretty much any segment they want.
- threeseed 7y agoAt least for their China factory Tesla is getting their batteries from CATL who also supply Mercedes, Porsche, Toyota, VW etc. Tesla isn't going to have much of an advantage in batteries for quite some time until their Maxwell R&D acquisition pays off.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago>For their China factory Tesla is getting their batteries from CATL Source? They were only rumors this summer that Tesla could be provided cells by CATL in the future. I couldn't find a report that says it's been the case already.
- zhdc1 7y agoI wasn't talking about the individual cells (although this is probably true, especially once you start looking at batty cell access/capacity), but the battery packs and related electronics. GM, VAG, and the other traditional manufacturers are still playing catch up, and outside of maybe VAG will probably be playing catch up for a long time.
- xedeon 7y agoLmao. Dude. You're quite special.