31 ms·

Lots of Job Hunting, but No Job, Despite Low Unemployment

119 points by tysone 7y ago

sschueller 7y ago
Does anyone have a link without paywal?
- nerdwaller 7y ago
  I just use reader mode on iOS or Firefox, otherwise I think you can disable JavaScript on NYT.
- lazerpants 7y ago
  Just clear your NYT related cookies and it will work fine.
- technovader 7y ago
  Install a browser extension that can quickly disable JavaScript. That bypasses almost every paywall.
  - spacedog11 7y ago
    Is that possible on a mobile device?
    - pwg 7y ago
      UblockOrigin is available for Firefox Mobile. So, yes, possible, but you first have to install Firefox.
psv1 7y ago
The title looks interesting but I haven't read the article because of the paywall - not sure why people keep sharing these.
- castratikron 7y ago
  Ever heard of NoScript?
- kick 7y ago
  It's a soft-paywall (you get to read an article free), and an easily avoidable paywall at that (clear cookies or disable Javascript). Completely accessible for everyone.
- dang 7y ago
  If there's a workaround, it's ok. Users usually post workarounds in the thread. This is in the FAQ at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and there's more explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
sharkweek 7y ago
In my early (okay... mid) thirties now. I have been laid off once and left on my own will from three jobs through the last 12 years of my career. Being laid off puts kind of a stink on you, even if slight, that requires a bit of interview time be spent clarifying WHY you got laid off instead of entirely being able to focus on experience, accomplishments etc. When I was moving from one place to another, there seemed to be a noticeable sense of urgency on the new company's part to recruit me away. However, as long as you get your story straight I think it’s easier to explain a stretch of unemployment more now than it used to be. I can appreciate that I'm probably saying this from a place of privilege working in tech-orbit. I bet my tone changes if I suffer a layoff in my older age.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Reallt? I just say they didnt have money to pay me and ask the interviewer really pointedly if the company I'm interviewing with has money to pay me. I feel lay offs are easy to explain. Firing is different.
- abc126589 7y ago
  Is it required that one disclosure they were laid off vs saying was interested in changing companies?
  - sharkweek 7y ago
    Nah, but I do think it's healthier to be upfront about that stuff.
- lowercased 7y ago
  I've always understood there to be a difference between "laid off" and "fired". "Fired" tends to be because of you, "laid off" is more on the company's side. I was "fired" once (well, twice, in the 90s) because I wasn't pulling my weight. I was 'laid off' once (in the 2000s) because the company was running out of money, and had to lay off around half the company. That wasn't really anything to do with my performance or ability - it was the company's finances. Explaining "I was part of the 50% of the company laid off due to financial pressures" (or "laid off after a corporate merger") wouldn't generally have the same negative connotation.
intins 7y ago
If you have a problem with the paywall. Here's how to solve it: 1. Open the Dev Console. (Ctrl Shift Eye) 2. Click Settings on the Menu. (F1) 3. Look for 'Disable Javascript' 4. Refresh page and click on Disable Javascript before paywall loads.
- andimm 7y ago
  Or on Firefox: Reload and quickly toggle "reader mode" (F9) I used a private window.
- listenallyall 7y ago
  You forgot: 1. Pay for a subscription. No 2. 3. or 4.
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    You forgot: 1. Just never go on or support any website with a paywall No 2. 3. or 4.
    - claudiulodro 7y ago
      Why? Would you also never buy a magazine or print newspaper? Subscriptions are the best way to have a sustainable news site that isn't an ad-infested mess.
      - sdinsn 7y ago
        > Would you also never buy a magazine or print newspaper? Correct. > news site that isn't an ad-infested mess Thanks to uBlock, no website I go on has ads.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
>say they cannot find jobs that provide a middle-class income and don’t come with an expiration date. Unemployment numbers don't measure quality. We have tons of available jobs, but low quality. And/or the people looking for jobs don't have the skills required for high quality jobs. Edit: Here's an income quintile graph from 2016 that shows quality of jobs (scroll down): https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55413 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55413
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Right! Engineers driving busses; office managers flipping burgers. And the administration dares to call it 'full employment'. Its part of the very wealthy keeping all the money - if nobody has a skilled job, we don't get (much) income, and wealth inequality zooms onward. A better measure of employment would be, how much total payroll is across the country. Per capita if you like. That would tell us how we're doing. Not just a total of whom 'has a job'.
  - crdoconnor 7y ago
    Somewhat ironic since we were told in no uncertain terms that automation would cause the exact opposite to happen.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      "Service" roles have been put in a weird state where, because they involve relating to humans, they're difficult to automate. But because they involve doing what you're told, with low room for autonomy and creativity, they're low-status and therefore low paid.
      - BurningFrog 7y ago
        > they're low-status and therefore low paid. Pretty sure it's mostly the other way: They're low status because they're low paid. Jobs are low paid when there is a big supply of people who can and want to do them. Which is pretty much equivalent to the jobs being low skilled. Since everyone can flip a burger, you don't have to pay much to find someone to do it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
tootahe45 7y ago
The moment colleges become even a little bit responsible for job prospects you will never see crap like 'project management' offered to the unemployed again.
- api 7y ago
  The biggest offenders are those colleges (the majority) that offered people who could not afford them debt-financed liberal arts degrees that are essentially unemployable outside the absolutely tiny number who end up employed in academia or maybe think tanks and non-profits. I'm not saying such degrees or programs shouldn't exist. I'm saying that if colleges cared about students' life outcomes they would be up front about the fact that this is not a degree or program of study with any earning potential benefit and discourage people who can't afford it from studying these areas (at least as a major, electives are fine). You would still have a few who just totally want to study that and don't care, but they should know what they are signing up for and be fully aware of the implications. I feel like a ton of people were not, and we should not expect 18 year olds to show a 35 year olds' level of maturity when it comes to doing their own homework and career planning.
  - thisisnico 7y ago
    I'm sure the professors are keeping things hush-hush because it's the future of their own career. It's in their best interest to bring people in. Everyone in the process has skin in the game and they all want more students in the program. I feel like the universities/colleges should have mandatory 3rd party career specialists consult with students, in the students best interests.
    - api 7y ago
      Yes, that would be good. I guess part of the issue is that I think of a university as a public interest institution that should be looking out for the students, not a purely for-profit institution looking to monetize the students.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
shams93 7y ago
I'm having the same experience but I keep in mind that the Trump admin lies and also promotes discrimination. I lost my job to an h1b, in a good economy it takes me 2 weeks to find a new job this is anything but a strong economy. Lie with stats how you like but you can't use lies to generate reality the real economy is what it is.
- jimbob45 7y ago
  H1Bs are a scapegoat. There simply aren't that many here such that your job is in danger. You could argue for a domino effect and I might agree.
- brookhaven_dude 7y ago
  It is illegal to hire an H1B if a qualified American is available. You should file a complaint with DoL.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    If a law is literally never enforced, there's not much point in having the law.
    - brookhaven_dude 7y ago
      You are wrong on that. A company I worked for was investigated after a complain about H1B process. I actually had an investigator call me asking all kinds of questions. They do take complaints about H1B abuse seriously.
pithymaxim 7y ago
>nearly 40 percent of Americans, a Federal Reserve report found, are in such a financially precarious state that they say they would have trouble finding $400 for an unexpected expense like a car repair or a medical bill. This has got to be the most repeated statistic in reporting on hardship, but the actual responses seem way less dire: https://twitter.com/p_millerd/status/1118071142311288838?lang=en https://twitter.com/p_millerd/status/1118071142311288838?lan...
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  Good on him for digging into it, but his conclusion is not much more cheery than the 40% statistic he is bashing. His conclusion: most of those 40% would be able to borrow money to cover an unexpected $400 expense, and only 14% of all people truly would be unable to meet a $400 obligation. That is still a damn scary statistic that still illustrates how close to the edge so many people live.
  - crdoconnor 7y ago
    His conclusion: most of those >40% would be able to borrow money to cover an unexpected $400 expense, and only 14% of all people truly would be unable to meet a $400 obligation. That's pretty much exactly how I interpreted the original.
- smaddox 7y ago
  14% is still ~35 million adults. That's still a problem. And yes it's better than it was right after the global financial crisis, but this boom is not going to last forever. Our economic policies and policy makers are too busy sticking their heads in the sand.
  - hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
    But honestly, even if all those people made twice as much, you'd still see millions of people unable to cover an unexpected expense (maybe not 14%, but, say, 10%). I've met more than a few people who are just mentally unable to save money. The second they get money, they spend it, regardless of the actual need.
melvinroest 7y ago
I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to focus on a portfolio and I got distracted with doing multiple degrees all at the same time fast-tracked (nobody cares that I fast-tracked), which (as you can see in point 2) proves that I'm worth very little. It taught me a lot personally and made me smarter (in terms of crystalized intelligence). But my portfolio is rather terrible compared to what I'm capable of. I'll fix it, but right now I'm just tired of being not called back (50% of the time) or rejected (the other 50%). I know I'm capable, and pass the bar. I'm not perfect, I'm not the best, but I'm capable. [1] I created an app called Doodledocs which is a Canvas-based app that allows P2P privacy free collaborative doodling with a pressure sensitive stylus. In my interviews with companies they don't trust enough that I'd be capable helping along with CRUD applications, because I didn't do any CRUD in the Doodledocs app. And I'm just thinking: figuring out how to do WebRTC for free in a serverless manner (while seeing all of it for the first time) is a lot tougher than writing some models for a basic login system that you already know about (the same can be said for poking around in VMs in view libraries like Glimmer). Anyways, it's on a show HN right now see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21399910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21399910 -- also for anyone who wants to do free WebRTC, check the Bugout library, it's really cool. If you have any questions about it, I can walk you through it (I understand most to all of it). My email is my hn username at gmail.
- zentiggr 7y ago
  Maybe some of these companies see DoodleDocs and wonder if you'd be a bad fit for a CRUD type position? Like, you've already gone beyond a lot of those basic needs, so why would you "step down" to a CRUD job?
  - melvinroest 7y ago
    Good point: I do have a hard time communicating why I'm fine with a CRUD position. Because sometimes I think things are self-evident, when they're not and then I poorly communicate them. One of the reasons is: when you look at my resume (I'm Googleable), I am simply just starting out. And just doing the grind for 2 or more years would ground me in what I've experienced the past 8 years during my studies and jobs I did while studying.
wrnr 7y ago
In my region the government employment office likes to state that there are tens of thousands of IT vacancies but these numbers are misleading. It's actually a form of ghost liquidity. The same job at one company is advertised by different recruitment agencies, and multiple companies are bidding on the same contract with the same client. At the end of the day it's the same work that gets done by the same person, the intermediaries take their cut, and you are stuck upgrading some old software under the auspice of digital transformation.
- non-entity 7y ago
  > The same job at one company is advertised by different recruitment agencies A bit of a tangent but these are the most obnoxious things whenever I search for a job. Because there seems to be a dozen of these for each "real" job posting.
8bitsrule 7y ago
"the stunningly low official unemployment rate of 3.5 percent, the lowest in a half-century. Working even one hour during the week when the Labor Department does its employment survey keeps you out of the jobless category." Aha. Re-define what 'job' means, problem solved.
- nradov 7y ago
  The definition has always been the same since the Labor Department started publishing official unemployment statistics. Nothing has been redefined.
themodder666 7y ago
One of these days, I want to take a year off to see how hard it is to find an actual job de novo, with no experience. I see so many trade schools and apprenticeship programs that its hard for me not to think that people just arent looking hard enough or in the right places.
- sdenton4 7y ago
  trade school != job... A common trap in the current era is to go back for more education when the job market isn't working out, missing a year or more of wages and taking on further debt... And then finding things aren't much better on the other side of the degree. This happened to one of my parents: got one awful job at a tiny company for about a year after getting the master's, then was fired for trying to be ethical (refusing to lie about the results of security audit for the benefit of a large customer), and now can't find anything else... woohoo.
- Ancalagon 7y ago
  Unless you're rich, I don't understand why you would consider doing this.
cryoshon 7y ago
our labor force participation rate hasn't recovered since the recession. 65.7% participation rate in september of 2009 compared to 63.2% today. look at the official data yourself: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln the "low" unemployment is a result of nearly-unemployed people working small jobs which aren't enough to cover their basic needs rather than a genuinely improving economic situation. remember: 5% unemployment is normal and ideal because it representes structural unemployment plus the churn of people moving from job to job. we're lower than that now, which means that either our metric is not reflecting the scenario (as i believe) or that the fundamental amount of churn and structural unemployment has decreased, which i think nobody will try to argue. the people knocked out of the labor force in 2009 have had an extremely difficult time getting back in, and the jobs they occupied have been destroyed permanently by the looks of it. in other words, while unemployment is very low, compared to then, the economy either has 2-3% fewer open jobs compared to the number of jobseekers (who may be employed), or employers are substantially more reluctant to take on new employees when those employees are not already participants in the labor force. or both. there's two additional problems here. the first is that employers are unwilling to give unemployed and marginally employed workers a shot because they're tainted. this is especially true in "professional" and "high quality" jobs. the second additional problem is that middle-class people tend to hold out for a "good job" rather than taking any job which they could reasonably do, like waiting tables etc. knowing this, employers often refuse to take these people for those roles...
- cmxch 7y ago
  If I'm reading you correctly, employers have largely written off the 07-09 jobless. I'd imagine that a nontrivial amount are on SSI/SSDI as a fallback. If there's a chance to not let their talents rot, how does one nudge the employer to give them a good faith chance? If the choice is to write them off, then how does one make it less painful for the written off? Either way, it does no good to do nothing for people caught on the wrong end of employment or nothing towards employers that write people off.
tyingq 7y ago
Individual experiences are interesting, but not automatically indicative of a trend. Maybe she's just terrible in interviews? I've certainly interviewed people that were obviously intelligent, but paralyzed with nervousness. Tried compensating, but the situation was too far gone to salvage.
- qaq 7y ago
  Hire them :) you'll have shorter meetings and they don't job hop as much
  - tyingq 7y ago
    Good advice, and I've tried that where it's possible. I'm not the only person that gets to weigh in. Introvert myself and not great at interviews.
- tpmx 7y ago
  Once at a previous company a job candidate was hyper nervous. He had flown in from a few hours away. I hadn't seem that level of nervousness before (or since). I really felt for him. I ended up taking him out for an early lunch together with some coworkers. That "loosened him up" enough so that we could conduct a proper interview. He ended up being a very valuable and (and liked) employee for like 7 years. And that nervousness - not really visible at all, after he got to know the people at our site. So: My recommendation if you think have a potentially great but also very nervous job candidate: Take your time. Change the scenery. Etc. (In this particular case I was pretty sure he was smart, just based on his application.)
testfoobar 7y ago
You can work, but you can't afford housing, healthcare or education. This is the disastrous consequence of re-inflating another asset bubble after 2008-2009 with a decade of zero interest rates and a doubling of the national debt. The wealth inequality between capital and labor is the direct cause of political volatility globally.
- mrfredward 7y ago
  In the sort run, sure, low interest rates make the assets of the rich more valuable, at least on paper. In the long run though, low interest rates push against wealth inequality. People who have more money than they need collect interest, people who need a loan to get an education or buy a house pay interest. Also, it doesn't seem plausible that an asset bubble is the reason healthcare is expensive.
  - imtringued 7y ago
    The principal grows faster than the savings from the lower interest rates because other people are getting loans as well. The only way to benefit from low interest rates is if you already have a high interest rate loan from a decade ago and want to refinance.
neonate 7y ago
http://archive.is/bv1LA http://archive.is/bv1LA
sys_64738 7y ago
Just remember that it gets harder to get a job as you get older. You probably don’t want to be the oldest in your place of employment. Sure you might be the lucky one. Your best bet if you’re younger than 40 is to get rid of all your debt and have a viable exit strategy from the workforce. If you’re younger and reading this just remember your replacement will be along shortly. Age discrimination is real and unstoppable and coming for your job.
- Mobius01 7y ago
  Do you want to explain how one avoids being the oldest at their place of employment? Or how to accomplish early retirement at 40 for the average person?
  - Ancalagon 7y ago
    Be a manager by the time youre in your 40s.
- mxuribe 7y ago
  > Age discrimination is real and unstoppable... Hell yes it is! Throughout all of my life I've tended to look much younger than my age, and was actually somewhat treated disrespectfully. Often, i was treated like the bottom rung of interns even though i had years of experience in the workplace. I've heard people secretly refer to me as the "young punk kid", and get passed up for promotions, opportunities, etc. My youthful appearance has persisted even now as a 45-year old...But i was always brought up to respect EVERYONE no matter what, including my elders. But most recently the team that I work on (at my dayjob), they're all younger than me - all mid-to-late 30s (and one of them is 40). I guess i was never "the only old guy" on the team until recently. My boss in fact is 5 years younger than me. All was going ok with the team until it came out casually that I'm the oldest on the team - yikes even "older than the team's boss"! Well, after that, things changed. They're subtle things, but really messed up things; things that have lost me numerous opportunities within my current employer. So, in my youth i got discriminated because of assumptions that i could not possibly have the experience that i have had. And, now its discrimination on the other end - at least once my age is discovered. There's very little that i can do about this, that is, if i wish to remain at my role within the team (and I really like the job/role, but not this team because of their behavior here). So, my options are to leave to another team in this same company, or jump to another employer...either way, it sucks big time...So, age discrimination, yeah its real, raw, and awful. My heart goes out to all those affected - young and older.
crb002 7y ago
Unemployment numbers in Iowa are 100% rigged. They shortened the window from 2 weeks to 1 week to make continuing claims throwing many off the rolls. There is also a benefit cliff that screws workers penny for penny out of side hustle income over $100/week giving them little motivation to file claims despite making less than $600/week. Also the system is rigged against minimum wage workers. They have to work weeks longer than $100k wage employees to qualify for coverage.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Really I have gotten the impression from my experience that employers tend to be irrationally picky and arbitrary about employees. They dismiss perfectly good canidates for "culture fit" or able to bullshit flatter their ego enough or for not having magical 2-5 years of experience for entry level. Yet if you have them or have a full time job they dogpile you with recruitment attempts - and spend years trying to fill a short term contract or you acknowledge that Cost of Living affects the salary you are willing to accept. It seems the great recession broke their fragile HR minds.
- Jugglerofworlds 7y ago
  God forbid you make a small mistake on a technical interview or don't know the "trick" to answer a leetcode question. Any small mistake is enough to crucify you, and previous employment experience is ignored in favor of basing 100% on technical interviews.
  - sage76 7y ago
    > Any small mistake is enough to crucify you Completely true. If you don't immediately and perfectly know the most efficient algo to solve graph inversion or whatever random problem they found on leetcode that day, kiss any chances of a callback goodbye. Oh and be prepared for a hundred rounds of relentless grilling. I don't know why it gets peddled around that it's easy to find jobs in CS. It seems as hard as finding a break in hollywood.
    - simplebuilder 7y ago
      > It seems as hard as finding a break in hollywood. Well put!
nickthemagicman 7y ago
Ironic. I just applied to work at the nytimes and was ghosted by the person I interviewed with.
Zooper 7y ago
Top Employers in the US: 1) Walmart 2) Amazon Articles touting employment as a meaningful number are about as meaningful as the articles touting the good graces of anonymous donors paying for medical procedures, sometimes for the insured.
ycombonator 7y ago
If this bill https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386... passes instantly there will be approximately 200,000 “tech workers” flooding the market.
RickJWagner 7y ago
With near-record low unemployment and rising wages, conditions are near optimal. It's very difficult to imagine some environment where the people suffering today are going to do better. Conditions are pretty much maxed out.
- bhl 7y ago
  If conditions were optimal, then we should be expecting rising inflation due to a tighter labor market. That hasn’t been the case.

119 points by tysone 7y ago

sschueller 7y ago

Does anyone have a link without paywal?

nerdwaller 7y ago
I just use reader mode on iOS or Firefox, otherwise I think you can disable JavaScript on NYT.
lazerpants 7y ago
Just clear your NYT related cookies and it will work fine.
technovader 7y ago
Install a browser extension that can quickly disable JavaScript. That bypasses almost every paywall.
- spacedog11 7y ago
  Is that possible on a mobile device?
  - pwg 7y ago
    UblockOrigin is available for Firefox Mobile. So, yes, possible, but you first have to install Firefox.

psv1 7y ago

The title looks interesting but I haven't read the article because of the paywall - not sure why people keep sharing these.

castratikron 7y ago
Ever heard of NoScript?
kick 7y ago
It's a soft-paywall (you get to read an article free), and an easily avoidable paywall at that (clear cookies or disable Javascript). Completely accessible for everyone.
dang 7y ago
If there's a workaround, it's ok. Users usually post workarounds in the thread. This is in the FAQ at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html and there's more explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20paywall https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

sharkweek 7y ago

In my early (okay... mid) thirties now. I have been laid off once and left on my own will from three jobs through the last 12 years of my career. Being laid off puts kind of a stink on you, even if slight, that requires a bit of interview time be spent clarifying WHY you got laid off instead of entirely being able to focus on experience, accomplishments etc. When I was moving from one place to another, there seemed to be a noticeable sense of urgency on the new company's part to recruit me away. However, as long as you get your story straight I think it’s easier to explain a stretch of unemployment more now than it used to be. I can appreciate that I'm probably saying this from a place of privilege working in tech-orbit. I bet my tone changes if I suffer a layoff in my older age.

tathougies 7y ago
Reallt? I just say they didnt have money to pay me and ask the interviewer really pointedly if the company I'm interviewing with has money to pay me. I feel lay offs are easy to explain. Firing is different.
abc126589 7y ago
Is it required that one disclosure they were laid off vs saying was interested in changing companies?
- sharkweek 7y ago
  Nah, but I do think it's healthier to be upfront about that stuff.
lowercased 7y ago
I've always understood there to be a difference between "laid off" and "fired". "Fired" tends to be because of you, "laid off" is more on the company's side. I was "fired" once (well, twice, in the 90s) because I wasn't pulling my weight. I was 'laid off' once (in the 2000s) because the company was running out of money, and had to lay off around half the company. That wasn't really anything to do with my performance or ability - it was the company's finances. Explaining "I was part of the 50% of the company laid off due to financial pressures" (or "laid off after a corporate merger") wouldn't generally have the same negative connotation.

intins 7y ago

If you have a problem with the paywall. Here's how to solve it: 1. Open the Dev Console. (Ctrl Shift Eye) 2. Click Settings on the Menu. (F1) 3. Look for 'Disable Javascript' 4. Refresh page and click on Disable Javascript before paywall loads.

andimm 7y ago
Or on Firefox: Reload and quickly toggle "reader mode" (F9) I used a private window.
listenallyall 7y ago
You forgot: 1. Pay for a subscription. No 2. 3. or 4.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  You forgot: 1. Just never go on or support any website with a paywall No 2. 3. or 4.
  - claudiulodro 7y ago
    Why? Would you also never buy a magazine or print newspaper? Subscriptions are the best way to have a sustainable news site that isn't an ad-infested mess.
    - sdinsn 7y ago
      > Would you also never buy a magazine or print newspaper? Correct. > news site that isn't an ad-infested mess Thanks to uBlock, no website I go on has ads.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

>say they cannot find jobs that provide a middle-class income and don’t come with an expiration date. Unemployment numbers don't measure quality. We have tons of available jobs, but low quality. And/or the people looking for jobs don't have the skills required for high quality jobs. Edit: Here's an income quintile graph from 2016 that shows quality of jobs (scroll down): https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55413 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55413

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Right! Engineers driving busses; office managers flipping burgers. And the administration dares to call it 'full employment'. Its part of the very wealthy keeping all the money - if nobody has a skilled job, we don't get (much) income, and wealth inequality zooms onward. A better measure of employment would be, how much total payroll is across the country. Per capita if you like. That would tell us how we're doing. Not just a total of whom 'has a job'.
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  Somewhat ironic since we were told in no uncertain terms that automation would cause the exact opposite to happen.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    "Service" roles have been put in a weird state where, because they involve relating to humans, they're difficult to automate. But because they involve doing what you're told, with low room for autonomy and creativity, they're low-status and therefore low paid.
    - BurningFrog 7y ago
      > they're low-status and therefore low paid. Pretty sure it's mostly the other way: They're low status because they're low paid. Jobs are low paid when there is a big supply of people who can and want to do them. Which is pretty much equivalent to the jobs being low skilled. Since everyone can flip a burger, you don't have to pay much to find someone to do it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

tootahe45 7y ago

The moment colleges become even a little bit responsible for job prospects you will never see crap like 'project management' offered to the unemployed again.

api 7y ago
The biggest offenders are those colleges (the majority) that offered people who could not afford them debt-financed liberal arts degrees that are essentially unemployable outside the absolutely tiny number who end up employed in academia or maybe think tanks and non-profits. I'm not saying such degrees or programs shouldn't exist. I'm saying that if colleges cared about students' life outcomes they would be up front about the fact that this is not a degree or program of study with any earning potential benefit and discourage people who can't afford it from studying these areas (at least as a major, electives are fine). You would still have a few who just totally want to study that and don't care, but they should know what they are signing up for and be fully aware of the implications. I feel like a ton of people were not, and we should not expect 18 year olds to show a 35 year olds' level of maturity when it comes to doing their own homework and career planning.
- thisisnico 7y ago
  I'm sure the professors are keeping things hush-hush because it's the future of their own career. It's in their best interest to bring people in. Everyone in the process has skin in the game and they all want more students in the program. I feel like the universities/colleges should have mandatory 3rd party career specialists consult with students, in the students best interests.
  - api 7y ago
    Yes, that would be good. I guess part of the issue is that I think of a university as a public interest institution that should be looking out for the students, not a purely for-profit institution looking to monetize the students.
gwbas1c 7y ago

shams93 7y ago

I'm having the same experience but I keep in mind that the Trump admin lies and also promotes discrimination. I lost my job to an h1b, in a good economy it takes me 2 weeks to find a new job this is anything but a strong economy. Lie with stats how you like but you can't use lies to generate reality the real economy is what it is.

jimbob45 7y ago
H1Bs are a scapegoat. There simply aren't that many here such that your job is in danger. You could argue for a domino effect and I might agree.
brookhaven_dude 7y ago
It is illegal to hire an H1B if a qualified American is available. You should file a complaint with DoL.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  If a law is literally never enforced, there's not much point in having the law.
  - brookhaven_dude 7y ago
    You are wrong on that. A company I worked for was investigated after a complain about H1B process. I actually had an investigator call me asking all kinds of questions. They do take complaints about H1B abuse seriously.

pithymaxim 7y ago

>nearly 40 percent of Americans, a Federal Reserve report found, are in such a financially precarious state that they say they would have trouble finding $400 for an unexpected expense like a car repair or a medical bill. This has got to be the most repeated statistic in reporting on hardship, but the actual responses seem way less dire: https://twitter.com/p_millerd/status/1118071142311288838?lang=en https://twitter.com/p_millerd/status/1118071142311288838?lan...

tasty_freeze 7y ago
Good on him for digging into it, but his conclusion is not much more cheery than the 40% statistic he is bashing. His conclusion: most of those 40% would be able to borrow money to cover an unexpected $400 expense, and only 14% of all people truly would be unable to meet a $400 obligation. That is still a damn scary statistic that still illustrates how close to the edge so many people live.
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  His conclusion: most of those >40% would be able to borrow money to cover an unexpected $400 expense, and only 14% of all people truly would be unable to meet a $400 obligation. That's pretty much exactly how I interpreted the original.
smaddox 7y ago
14% is still ~35 million adults. That's still a problem. And yes it's better than it was right after the global financial crisis, but this boom is not going to last forever. Our economic policies and policy makers are too busy sticking their heads in the sand.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
  But honestly, even if all those people made twice as much, you'd still see millions of people unable to cover an unexpected expense (maybe not 14%, but, say, 10%). I've met more than a few people who are just mentally unable to save money. The second they get money, they spend it, regardless of the actual need.

melvinroest 7y ago

I'm honestly experiencing this as a CS grad in the Dutch job market. I find it weird and frustrating. I've noticed why: 1. Companies don't dare to value creativity [1]. University is so liberal and the job market is so the opposite. 2. Most companies can't value a CS degree. The exception is when enough people in the company did a CS degree and that's a lot more rare than I thought. 3. University didn't teach me to focus on a portfolio and I got distracted with doing multiple degrees all at the same time fast-tracked (nobody cares that I fast-tracked), which (as you can see in point 2) proves that I'm worth very little. It taught me a lot personally and made me smarter (in terms of crystalized intelligence). But my portfolio is rather terrible compared to what I'm capable of. I'll fix it, but right now I'm just tired of being not called back (50% of the time) or rejected (the other 50%). I know I'm capable, and pass the bar. I'm not perfect, I'm not the best, but I'm capable. [1] I created an app called Doodledocs which is a Canvas-based app that allows P2P privacy free collaborative doodling with a pressure sensitive stylus. In my interviews with companies they don't trust enough that I'd be capable helping along with CRUD applications, because I didn't do any CRUD in the Doodledocs app. And I'm just thinking: figuring out how to do WebRTC for free in a serverless manner (while seeing all of it for the first time) is a lot tougher than writing some models for a basic login system that you already know about (the same can be said for poking around in VMs in view libraries like Glimmer). Anyways, it's on a show HN right now see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21399910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21399910 -- also for anyone who wants to do free WebRTC, check the Bugout library, it's really cool. If you have any questions about it, I can walk you through it (I understand most to all of it). My email is my hn username at gmail.

zentiggr 7y ago
Maybe some of these companies see DoodleDocs and wonder if you'd be a bad fit for a CRUD type position? Like, you've already gone beyond a lot of those basic needs, so why would you "step down" to a CRUD job?
- melvinroest 7y ago
  Good point: I do have a hard time communicating why I'm fine with a CRUD position. Because sometimes I think things are self-evident, when they're not and then I poorly communicate them. One of the reasons is: when you look at my resume (I'm Googleable), I am simply just starting out. And just doing the grind for 2 or more years would ground me in what I've experienced the past 8 years during my studies and jobs I did while studying.

wrnr 7y ago

In my region the government employment office likes to state that there are tens of thousands of IT vacancies but these numbers are misleading. It's actually a form of ghost liquidity. The same job at one company is advertised by different recruitment agencies, and multiple companies are bidding on the same contract with the same client. At the end of the day it's the same work that gets done by the same person, the intermediaries take their cut, and you are stuck upgrading some old software under the auspice of digital transformation.

non-entity 7y ago
> The same job at one company is advertised by different recruitment agencies A bit of a tangent but these are the most obnoxious things whenever I search for a job. Because there seems to be a dozen of these for each "real" job posting.

8bitsrule 7y ago

"the stunningly low official unemployment rate of 3.5 percent, the lowest in a half-century. Working even one hour during the week when the Labor Department does its employment survey keeps you out of the jobless category." Aha. Re-define what 'job' means, problem solved.

nradov 7y ago
The definition has always been the same since the Labor Department started publishing official unemployment statistics. Nothing has been redefined.

themodder666 7y ago

One of these days, I want to take a year off to see how hard it is to find an actual job de novo, with no experience. I see so many trade schools and apprenticeship programs that its hard for me not to think that people just arent looking hard enough or in the right places.

sdenton4 7y ago
trade school != job... A common trap in the current era is to go back for more education when the job market isn't working out, missing a year or more of wages and taking on further debt... And then finding things aren't much better on the other side of the degree. This happened to one of my parents: got one awful job at a tiny company for about a year after getting the master's, then was fired for trying to be ethical (refusing to lie about the results of security audit for the benefit of a large customer), and now can't find anything else... woohoo.
Ancalagon 7y ago
Unless you're rich, I don't understand why you would consider doing this.

cryoshon 7y ago

our labor force participation rate hasn't recovered since the recession. 65.7% participation rate in september of 2009 compared to 63.2% today. look at the official data yourself: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln the "low" unemployment is a result of nearly-unemployed people working small jobs which aren't enough to cover their basic needs rather than a genuinely improving economic situation. remember: 5% unemployment is normal and ideal because it representes structural unemployment plus the churn of people moving from job to job. we're lower than that now, which means that either our metric is not reflecting the scenario (as i believe) or that the fundamental amount of churn and structural unemployment has decreased, which i think nobody will try to argue. the people knocked out of the labor force in 2009 have had an extremely difficult time getting back in, and the jobs they occupied have been destroyed permanently by the looks of it. in other words, while unemployment is very low, compared to then, the economy either has 2-3% fewer open jobs compared to the number of jobseekers (who may be employed), or employers are substantially more reluctant to take on new employees when those employees are not already participants in the labor force. or both. there's two additional problems here. the first is that employers are unwilling to give unemployed and marginally employed workers a shot because they're tainted. this is especially true in "professional" and "high quality" jobs. the second additional problem is that middle-class people tend to hold out for a "good job" rather than taking any job which they could reasonably do, like waiting tables etc. knowing this, employers often refuse to take these people for those roles...

cmxch 7y ago
If I'm reading you correctly, employers have largely written off the 07-09 jobless. I'd imagine that a nontrivial amount are on SSI/SSDI as a fallback. If there's a chance to not let their talents rot, how does one nudge the employer to give them a good faith chance? If the choice is to write them off, then how does one make it less painful for the written off? Either way, it does no good to do nothing for people caught on the wrong end of employment or nothing towards employers that write people off.

tyingq 7y ago

Individual experiences are interesting, but not automatically indicative of a trend. Maybe she's just terrible in interviews? I've certainly interviewed people that were obviously intelligent, but paralyzed with nervousness. Tried compensating, but the situation was too far gone to salvage.

qaq 7y ago
Hire them :) you'll have shorter meetings and they don't job hop as much
- tyingq 7y ago
  Good advice, and I've tried that where it's possible. I'm not the only person that gets to weigh in. Introvert myself and not great at interviews.
tpmx 7y ago
Once at a previous company a job candidate was hyper nervous. He had flown in from a few hours away. I hadn't seem that level of nervousness before (or since). I really felt for him. I ended up taking him out for an early lunch together with some coworkers. That "loosened him up" enough so that we could conduct a proper interview. He ended up being a very valuable and (and liked) employee for like 7 years. And that nervousness - not really visible at all, after he got to know the people at our site. So: My recommendation if you think have a potentially great but also very nervous job candidate: Take your time. Change the scenery. Etc. (In this particular case I was pretty sure he was smart, just based on his application.)

testfoobar 7y ago

You can work, but you can't afford housing, healthcare or education. This is the disastrous consequence of re-inflating another asset bubble after 2008-2009 with a decade of zero interest rates and a doubling of the national debt. The wealth inequality between capital and labor is the direct cause of political volatility globally.

mrfredward 7y ago
In the sort run, sure, low interest rates make the assets of the rich more valuable, at least on paper. In the long run though, low interest rates push against wealth inequality. People who have more money than they need collect interest, people who need a loan to get an education or buy a house pay interest. Also, it doesn't seem plausible that an asset bubble is the reason healthcare is expensive.
- imtringued 7y ago
  The principal grows faster than the savings from the lower interest rates because other people are getting loans as well. The only way to benefit from low interest rates is if you already have a high interest rate loan from a decade ago and want to refinance.

neonate 7y ago

http://archive.is/bv1LA http://archive.is/bv1LA

sys_64738 7y ago

Just remember that it gets harder to get a job as you get older. You probably don’t want to be the oldest in your place of employment. Sure you might be the lucky one. Your best bet if you’re younger than 40 is to get rid of all your debt and have a viable exit strategy from the workforce. If you’re younger and reading this just remember your replacement will be along shortly. Age discrimination is real and unstoppable and coming for your job.

Mobius01 7y ago
Do you want to explain how one avoids being the oldest at their place of employment? Or how to accomplish early retirement at 40 for the average person?
- Ancalagon 7y ago
  Be a manager by the time youre in your 40s.
mxuribe 7y ago
> Age discrimination is real and unstoppable... Hell yes it is! Throughout all of my life I've tended to look much younger than my age, and was actually somewhat treated disrespectfully. Often, i was treated like the bottom rung of interns even though i had years of experience in the workplace. I've heard people secretly refer to me as the "young punk kid", and get passed up for promotions, opportunities, etc. My youthful appearance has persisted even now as a 45-year old...But i was always brought up to respect EVERYONE no matter what, including my elders. But most recently the team that I work on (at my dayjob), they're all younger than me - all mid-to-late 30s (and one of them is 40). I guess i was never "the only old guy" on the team until recently. My boss in fact is 5 years younger than me. All was going ok with the team until it came out casually that I'm the oldest on the team - yikes even "older than the team's boss"! Well, after that, things changed. They're subtle things, but really messed up things; things that have lost me numerous opportunities within my current employer. So, in my youth i got discriminated because of assumptions that i could not possibly have the experience that i have had. And, now its discrimination on the other end - at least once my age is discovered. There's very little that i can do about this, that is, if i wish to remain at my role within the team (and I really like the job/role, but not this team because of their behavior here). So, my options are to leave to another team in this same company, or jump to another employer...either way, it sucks big time...So, age discrimination, yeah its real, raw, and awful. My heart goes out to all those affected - young and older.

crb002 7y ago

Unemployment numbers in Iowa are 100% rigged. They shortened the window from 2 weeks to 1 week to make continuing claims throwing many off the rolls. There is also a benefit cliff that screws workers penny for penny out of side hustle income over $100/week giving them little motivation to file claims despite making less than $600/week. Also the system is rigged against minimum wage workers. They have to work weeks longer than $100k wage employees to qualify for coverage.

Nasrudith 7y ago

Really I have gotten the impression from my experience that employers tend to be irrationally picky and arbitrary about employees. They dismiss perfectly good canidates for "culture fit" or able to bullshit flatter their ego enough or for not having magical 2-5 years of experience for entry level. Yet if you have them or have a full time job they dogpile you with recruitment attempts - and spend years trying to fill a short term contract or you acknowledge that Cost of Living affects the salary you are willing to accept. It seems the great recession broke their fragile HR minds.

Jugglerofworlds 7y ago
God forbid you make a small mistake on a technical interview or don't know the "trick" to answer a leetcode question. Any small mistake is enough to crucify you, and previous employment experience is ignored in favor of basing 100% on technical interviews.
- sage76 7y ago
  > Any small mistake is enough to crucify you Completely true. If you don't immediately and perfectly know the most efficient algo to solve graph inversion or whatever random problem they found on leetcode that day, kiss any chances of a callback goodbye. Oh and be prepared for a hundred rounds of relentless grilling. I don't know why it gets peddled around that it's easy to find jobs in CS. It seems as hard as finding a break in hollywood.
  - simplebuilder 7y ago
    > It seems as hard as finding a break in hollywood. Well put!

nickthemagicman 7y ago

Ironic. I just applied to work at the nytimes and was ghosted by the person I interviewed with.

Zooper 7y ago

Top Employers in the US: 1) Walmart 2) Amazon Articles touting employment as a meaningful number are about as meaningful as the articles touting the good graces of anonymous donors paying for medical procedures, sometimes for the insured.

ycombonator 7y ago

If this bill https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386/all-info https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/386... passes instantly there will be approximately 200,000 “tech workers” flooding the market.

RickJWagner 7y ago

With near-record low unemployment and rising wages, conditions are near optimal. It's very difficult to imagine some environment where the people suffering today are going to do better. Conditions are pretty much maxed out.

bhl 7y ago
If conditions were optimal, then we should be expecting rising inflation due to a tighter labor market. That hasn’t been the case.