45 ms·

I Accidentally Uncovered a Nationwide Scam on Airbnb

• kop316 7y ago
  I'll ask the dumb question (I don't use AirBnB): why not dispute the charge via a credit card?
  • RandomBacon 7y ago
    Presumably AirBnB would ban the user and the user still wants to be able to use the service in the future.
    • yrro 7y ago
      I'm somewhat surprised that this would be permitted by the card issuer. Aside from that... why aren't Airbnb detecting when multiple properties have very similar photos and investigating this themselves? (Of course they may be, and these examples are cases where they didn't pull the fraudulent listing).
      • CodesInChaos 7y ago
        It's largely the card issues fault. They charge a fee for each chargeback and punish or increase the fees for merchants who receive many chargebacks, so merchants try to avoid chargebacks, which includes banning everybody who uses them.
        • kop316 7y ago
          How on earth is that the card issuer's fault? The chargeback is for the exact fraudulent type of activity described in the article, and the business who allows it should be punished. Heck, that is the primary reason I use my credit card, for this type of protection.
          • ceejayoz 7y ago
            The card issuer could easily institute a "no retaliation" clause in their contracts that forbids deactivating a user's account for a sustained chargeback.
            • throw_m239339 7y ago
              > The card issuer could easily institute a "no retaliation" clause in their contracts that forbids deactivating a user's account for a sustained chargeback. On the contrary, AFAIK some banks or at least payment processors now clearly state than some "sharing economy" services cannot be subject to charge backs, or payment reversals, like if you use Paypal for a Kickstater. So it's basically the opposite of what you wish.
              • moccachino 7y ago
                I guess some is the key word. It makes sense to disallow charge backs for Kickstarters and such, because that whole premise is: You pay me a certain amount of money, and I'll try my best to get you something in return.
                • throw_m239339 7y ago
                  > I guess some is the key word. It makes sense to disallow charge backs for Kickstarters and such, because that whole premise is: You pay me a certain amount of money, and I'll try my best to get you something in return. Sure but at the same time, fraud is fraud. If a project is fraudulent, then who should bear the consequences? That's not that simple. Ultimately, backers do pay Kickstarter, never the project creator directly.
                  • true_religion 7y ago
                    Right if you’ve been defrauded, there is the justice system for that. Skipping it and relying on the banks,is only an option if the banks have already predetermined the winner.
        • yrro 7y ago
          If a business bans customers who charge back after being defrauded then the fault is with the business, not the card issuer. What surprises me is that the card issuers don't come down harder on businesses with this practice. I suppose Airbnb is a pretty large customer (of the card issuers) and so aren't so easy to influence, however...
          • CodesInChaos 7y ago
            You assume it's the business that committed fraud. In many cases talking to the merchant's support would resolve the issue (e.g. via a full refund) without having to escalate to an expensive chargeback. There is also the fun technique of attacking a merchant (or charity) by sending them money from stolen credit cards, which will stick them with chargeback fees and an eventual ban by the card processor.
            • yrro 7y ago
              Please note that I said that the customer had been defrauded. I didn't say that Airbnb was the one committing the fraud--although they are certainly profiting from it! I agree that customers should make reasonable attempts to resolve issues with merchants, and not go straight for the nuclear option of a chargeback. However, if I deal with a company and they don't resolve issues to my satisfaction within what I consider a reasonable period, I do not hesitate to make it clear that I will be contacting my bank to dispute the charges. Funnily enough, I have never actually had to do so: the mere threat seems to be sufficient to convey to the company that yes I do actually expect them to solve my problem. The system works, at least for those privileged enough to be aware of their rights, and to have the ability to issue effective threats to merchants who don't respond to complaints within good time.
          • deleted 7y ago
            [deleted]
        • shliachtx 7y ago
          The bigger concern from the merchant's side is that they are almost always swallowing the refund. The refund is not being provided by the card issuer or payment network, they just remove it from the merchant's (in this case AirBnB's) account. Declining a charge in this way is thus less insurance, and more telling the merchant "I am not paying you." While it may be justified (like in this story), the merchant is never going to be happy about losing those funds and losing the control over the funds. I had a similar situation with the App Store where I purchased a subscription under a mistaken assumption and when I could not find any recourse through Apple or the publisher (I simply could not find any way to get in touch with anyone), I declined the charge on my credit card. This led Apple to block all activity with that card - so much so that I was unable to download any free apps until I added another payment method to my profile. When I attempted to contact Apple to resolve this issue I was told that it was "for my security", to prevent further fraudulent transactions on my card. Explaining the situation, and that there was no fraudulent use of my card or account, just a misleading subscription did nothing to help. They insisted that the only way to resolve the situation would be if I reversed the dispute from the credit card (thus releasing the funds back to Apple), and only after that was completed would I be able to try to get a refund from Apple. Left with no other choice that is what I did. The issue at hand here was obviously that Apple was refusing to give up control to the credit card companies. By effectively banning any user that disputes a charge they are able to force their users to keep all complaints within Apple's purview (and they do not provide a way to submit complaints digitally).
    • bluetidepro 7y ago
      > the user still wants to be able to use the service in the future. And this is why Airbnb doesn't care. This is insane to me that they end with "Dealing with Airbnb’s easily exploitable and occasionally crazy-making system is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel." after ALL that. It's like the author has stockholm syndrome. I can't wrap my head around why you'd ever use Airbnb again after an experience like that, esp. when hotels are about the same cost.
      • alistairSH 7y ago
        Are hotels really about the same cost? My last several vacations have used Airbnb for housing, mostly because I prefer to cook my own meals and like having some space to spread out. Booking a suite w/ kitchenette at hotels in the same areas would have been quite expensive, if even possible. But, I've never been scammed on Airbnb. My experiences have all been excellent. That's one rental in the US and 5 across western Europe in the last 7 years. Not sure if it matters, but none of these were "cheap" rentals - they were all mid-priced. And almost all with "Super Host" rating (no clue if that gives any extra protection).
        • bluetidepro 7y ago
          > Are hotels really about the same cost? That's a fair question. I may have generalized a bit with that statement, however, from what I have seen lately if you use a hotel deal site, it has been about the same cost. On my recent vacations, after looking at options like Airbnb vs hotels in popular US cities, it has been an easy decision to get hotels over an Airbnb with the price difference averaging around $25-50 (esp. after you factor in all the crazy fees Airbnb does now, that you don't see until checkout). However, you do make a good point for your specific needs of the kitchen, that will obviously change a lot in terms of a hotel pricing with that amenity. For what it's worth, I've also only ever had good experiences with Airbnb in the past when I have used them, but still my main point was if I was the author, I don't know how I could ever go back to using Airbnb after that.
        • mbesto 7y ago
          I consistently stay in hotels for a good portion of the year and I rarely find AirBnbs cheaper nowadays. Really the only time I stay in one is when I want to rent a big house with a large group of friends or am in a remote area that doesn't really have hotels.
    • quaquaqua1 7y ago
      I issued a chargeback to Qatar Airways/Expedia for $1700 and they tried to fight it. Bank of America told them to go to hell, and that I was getting a full refund. I can still use Qatar and Expedia. Airbnb should not be allowed to ban me for this reason.
      • ianhawes 7y ago
        The "ban-on-dispute" technique is popular with tech companies. Uber, AirBnB, and Steam (among others) all enforce this strategy. With Steam, you lose your entire library when banned. With Uber, you lose the ability to create an account tied to your phone number (i.e. you need to get a new phone number to ever have a new account). I don't use AirBnB because it is a scam haven, so I can't comment on how their dispute process works. FWIW, "back in the day" chargebacks used to be done in a manual way which made it harder to automate the banning process that tech companies utilize. But the likes of Stripe and other processors have made it part of their API so you can easily trace the chargeback to the transaction and determine what recourse you have.
      • jasjdfkj2js 7y ago
        out of curiosity - what was the reason you did a charge back? how much information did you have to give BoA.
        • quaquaqua1 7y ago
          The plane was delayed 3 hours, which meant I would miss the connection in Qatar (en route to Singapore) The result would mean that 75% of my trip would be spent not in Singapore. So I requested to leave the plane because the plane had to go back to the gate to refuel, because of how long it waited on the runway. Qatar tried to argue that this wasn't their problem, but BoA told them to eat the cost. Two sides of the same coin. I would have accepted a partial refund but BoA gave full refund.
    • ryandrake 7y ago
      Who cares if they get banned from a fraudulent business? Why would anyone want to continue doing business with a company if they treat you this way? When I'm at the point of doing a chargeback, it's a "burn bridges" move and I'm not going to be doing business with the company anymore, regardless of whether they ban me.
      • JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        In the modern internet world, there's very often little/no choice of services. Initially there is competition; one gets an edge; everybody flocks to that service; the other services wither and die. So the idea that "I can just take my business elsewhere" is maybe a dying notion, in this modern economy. They're not brick-and-mortar stores where you can just walk down the street to another one.
        • ryandrake 7y ago
          Hotels are brick-and-mortar, and there are a lot of them. If one treats you badly you can (sometimes literally) walk down the street and do business at another one. The travel industry is a particularly bad example of little/no choice since there is so much competition, including online.
  • ben1040 7y ago
    Airbnb terms of service says you authorize them to collect the money from you, even if there are chargebacks, and they'll turn it over to third party collections. https://www.airbnb.com/terms/payments_terms?hide_nav=true https://www.airbnb.com/terms/payments_terms?hide_nav=true Also there's a binding arbitration clause there too just for good measure.
    • coldcode 7y ago
      It's a contract aligned totally for the company. I don't think they have a business if they had to have any responsibility for issues.
    • yrro 7y ago
      For me this page redirects me to airbnb.co.uk and the relevant portion of the agreement (Payment Authorizations) says: > In addition to any amount due as outlined above, if there are delinquent amounts or chargebacks associated with your Payment Method, you may be charged fees that are incidental to our collection of these delinquent amounts and chargebacks. Such fees or charges may include collection fees, convenience fees or other third-party charges. I'd be interested to see how the wording varies between jurisdictions.
      • ben1040 7y ago
        That's what I see on the US site as well.
  • rickyc091 7y ago
    When you file a dispute, they send it off to a third party to investigate. They dig into the contracts and when you make the purchase, you state you are agreeing to all their terms of no refund, etc. So you will almost always lose the dispute. They also have special partnerships with credit card companies so the companies are more likely to side with Airbnb as well.
• mattpavelle 7y ago
  Why don't companies like AirBNB who have a lot to lose (reputation wise) from a (small?) number of scammers sue those scammers into oblivion? Not only are they violating the TOS but they are committing fraud, and likely breaking a few other laws. AirBNB must know who they are as those scammers are getting paid, right? It would be expensive for AirBNB (they would certainly lose money) but it can't cost more than the revenue they lose when people read articles like this?
  • mobilefriendly 7y ago
    AirBNB was built on spamming Craigslist and willful ignorance of local zoning and tenant laws. It is in their DNA to allow operations like this...like WeWork, just trying to make it to the IPO cash-out.
  • ipython 7y ago
    Why would they care? They're applying the Fight Club formula. Take the number of listings, A, multiply by the small proportion of scam listings, B, multiply by the average refund we post, C. A times B times C equals X. If X ... well, who cares about X, it doesn't matter - people will still book with us anyway.
    • close04 7y ago
      Plus they also get to kick the problem down the road. If they have to face it, they might as well do it later. Airbnb should be held responsible via law, not via the expectation that they care about their image. As long as it’s the Airbnb website or app and they are getting a commission, shrugging off issues like this should not be legal.
  • yrro 7y ago
    Most people will never read this sort of article. And frankly it seems like Airbnb is perfectly happy to not rock the boat and continue to slurp up their fat percentage share of the fraud that they abet...
  • chrischen 7y ago
    The vast majority of Airbnbs I’ve stayed in were illegal hotels/rentals... only a handful were legit renting out a spare room / couch surfing type deals and the first time I did that I had to pretend I was the host’s college friend. Airbnb is basically built on shifting liability to shifty people running hotels out of rentals. Also, pro tip, I’d guess at least 50% of the airbnbs I’ve stayed in do not wash the sheets in a washer (I’ve literally physically observed at least one host lint-roll follow by a spray of fabric freshener). That being said I still use them to lower my own standards and prices below hotels, but I know what I’m getting into at least.
• as-j 7y ago
  Why didn't the journalist contact Airbnb in the first place? Or after he arrived at the 2nd place and it wasn't the location listed/promised. (yes I can understand being tired, frustrated, etc) Last minute host cancellation is the one thing they can actually something they help with since it ruins the marketplace for them. As a host I've had my set of horror storied interacting with Airbnb. Most hosts do try really hard, but every marketplace has scams at some level, and I'm not sure how you could find them all once it's under some value/size.
  • jrochkind1 7y ago
    Of course the scammers are good at "frog in the boiling water" level of scam, so it always seems like it will be easier and "I guess good enough" to just keep going. But I don't think I would ever try to contact AirBnB "in the moment" (when I'm in a city not my own and need a place to sleep and trying to do whatever I'm in the city to do), since I've been trained to expect that any support from such companies is going to be very inconvenient, take lots of my energy, and take at a minimum hours (if not days) to resolve. Hours I don't have, when i'm trying to enjoy my vacation or whatever. If AirBnB wants customers to contact the company immediately whenever anything looks fishy, they probably need to educate customers on that (with examples of what sorts of fishy things they'd like you to contact them asap about), as well as providing enough resources to customer support such that doing so actually helps instead of just adding more headache to an already painful situation. But I doubt AirBnB really wants customers to do that. From the OP for instance: > If a host asks a guest to stay at a property that’s different from the one they rented, Airbnb advises the guest to request a cancellation if they’re “not okay with the switch.” In both cases, the rules favor a would-be scammer and place the onus on guests who have just parachuted into an unfamiliar locale with their luggage and have nowhere else to stay that night.
    • wayoutthere 7y ago
      My solution has just to not use Airbnb because I don’t know if it’s a scam or not. They can fix their scam detection or continue to lose customers.
    • as-j 7y ago
• jrochkind1 7y ago
  Well, this certainly makes me want to never book an AirBnB again. You'd think AirBnB would be more alarmed about the reputational and consequent business hit of this sort of thing. Maybe they will be after this article?
  • lotsofpulp 7y ago
    No, because fixing these scams would increase their expenses and/or decrease income, which would lead to the company being valued lower at their IPO. The purpose of AirBNB right now is to give the current owners a nice exit. After that occurs, then they can worry about customer service and the related expenses.
  • throw_m239339 7y ago
    > You'd think AirBnB would be more alarmed about the reputational and consequent business hit of this sort of thing. Maybe they will be after this article? AirBnB is/used to be cheap. People want cheap. They don't want to pay $200 a night for a hotel room when they travel to Paris, AirBnB knows that so I think they are much more concerned about the size of their inventory than the satisfaction of the guest or their reputation. What fascinates me is the ability of most of theses "start-up" to successfully straight out ignore local laws, with very little consequences, and manage to put all the burden of legality onto their users. They must have very good legal teams that exploit the flaws of legal systems. Talking about Paris, the great majority of listing are outright illegal, or at least used to be. If I were to set up a similar operation on my own, in France, I'd be shut down in a heart beat for providing illegal hotels and rentals and go straight to prison. These people seem truly untouchable. That's the strength of these services.
    • toast0 7y ago
      > These people seem truly untouchable. Without knowing details about AirBnB's corporate structure, I assume they don't have any subsidiaries or offices or employees in France. That makes it hard (but not impossible) to compel them to follow French law, or local laws in France. The easier option is to write a law that compels payment processors to disallow payments to or from a company that does XYZ, then declare AirBNB has done XYZ and cut off their payments. It's certainly possible to rent an apartment in Paris and have all the payments done outside of France, but it removes a lot of people from both sides of the market. The other option is to work through courts internationally, but that's very slow and costly for things that aren't capital crimes. You basically have to get your government's diplomats to make the US State department care to do the interfacing.
• bluetidepro 7y ago
  Mentioned this in another comment, but it blows my mind that the author ends with: > "Even after a month of digging through public records, scouring the internet for clues, repeatedly calling Airbnb and confronting the man who called himself Patrick, I can’t say I’ll be leaving the platform, either. Dealing with Airbnb’s easily exploitable and occasionally crazy-making system is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel." After an experience like that, I'd spend so much effort warning everyone I know to avoid Airbnb, even with the off chance something like this could happen to them. THIS is exactly why Airbnb doesn't care, the user is so brainwashed into still using the platform even after all that to potentially save a few bucks (which honestly, from what I have seen these days, Airbnb is basically the same cost of a hotel if you buy from any hotel deal site). I just don't understand that logic at all. Fool me once...
  • joezydeco 7y ago
    Even after a >>>month<<< of digging through public records...Dealing with Airbnb’s easily exploitable and occasionally crazy-making system is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel." It's constantly amazing to see how little people value their time when it comes to stuff like this. Maybe when we're getting yearly salaries we don't compute out the hourly cost but, man, do the math once in a while.
    • dan-robertson 7y ago
      That time got converted into this article for which the author was presumably paid. And I would guess that the author didn’t spend the entire month on only this one thing. But maybe that’s wrong
    • RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
      > Maybe when we're getting yearly salaries we don't compute out the hourly cost but, man, do the math once in a while. The math to get an approximate hourly rate from a yearly salary is really easy: Just divide yearly salary by 2000. Thus if you make 100,000 a year, your hourly rate is approximately 50.
    • thatfrenchguy 7y ago
• chadlavi 7y ago
  There are also some smaller-time scams hosts run. I was forced to pay a three-figure cleaning fee by an AirBnB in DC earlier this year because they claimed I left a stain on their couch -- which I never even sat on (also, I was by myself, so it's not as though another one of my guests did something to it). I appealed and asked for photos of the supposed stain, but they ghosted me and in the end AirBnB ruled in their favor and automatically charged my credit card for the amount.
  • draw_down 7y ago
    Wow, I would absolutely charge that back. Which I guess would end my use of Airbnb, but I’d probably be ok with that.
  • wholepointofcc 7y ago
    Try calling your Credit Card company and flag it as fraud. That's what I would do. That failing I'd submit a police report.
    • itake 7y ago
      That doesn't work well b/c then Airbnb just bans you from the platform
      • random42 7y ago
        Why would you continue to give airbnb your business, once experiencing something like that anyways?
        • RaiseProfits 7y ago
          ....what kind of behavior were you expecting? AirBnb has always had atrocious customer service.
          • blueadept111 7y ago
            I disagree. I've been both a host and customer for many years, and in general I've found the customer service to be good or even very good for resolving issues either as a host or as a customer. In fact, many 'scare' articles about airbnb puzzle me, because it seem seems that the problems could have been avoided if the guest had read the reviews and/or booked with a superhost (or other host with a history of good reviews). Having said that, I do think it's insane that the reviews are no longer listed in chronological order (or at least with the option to view them in chronological order).
• g_sch 7y ago
  Does this article really contain a referral link for "overstock.com barstools"? I'm not sure if I should be appalled that they inserted an ad into a journalistic piece, or respect them for doing it despite how negative the reference is.
  • astura 7y ago
    I chuckled at that... It's almost certainly an automatically algorithmically generated link inserted by the publisher.
    • giarc 7y ago
      You are likely correct, it's probably Vice doing that not the author. Reddit tried it for a bit. They had software that would automatically transform relevant retail links into referral links. They stopped the practice as it wasn't making as much money as they thought it would.
      • magashna 7y ago
        Also it's annoying to the user and I'm sure companies don't want links to be "look at these shit ass _overstock.com chairs_"
• 120photo 7y ago
  I was in Chinatown (NYC) about a month ago helping at a event when this German woman walks over asking for help (very poor Spoken English). Three German tourist with their luggage dead tired and long story short their host canceled on them one hour before their flight was scheduled to land. They phones did not work in the US so they could not jump on expedia to look for a hotel. The best we could do was hail a cab for them to take them to a hotel where they would be charged $400 a night. Now they did not book through AirBnB but it was through some other similar service. I think they had paid about $1500 for a week. Really makes me not want to use services like this and just go to a hotel. Yes it is more money but I rather not deal with the hassle.
• ceejayoz 7y ago
  I wonder why AirBnB doesn't pay people Uber-style to inspect properties. $5-10 to go to an address and check that it can be accessed and matches the photos as an unannounced spot check? Send someone out on first listing, periodically, and every time a host cancels for a "maintenance issue" to verify the claim.
  • astura 7y ago
    Verifying listings is not a hard problem, Airbnb literally just doesn't want to, it takes a "we are just a middle man, hosts are responsible for their listings" approach. This is what makes them money, I don't think an Airbnb with only verified legal listings would be very profitable.
    • magduf 7y ago
      >I don't think an Airbnb with only verified legal listings would be very profitable. I think it absolutely could be. As I said in a post above, I've used it once, to stay at a private home (with the family living there) when I traveled to Europe last year and the hotel rates in one particular city were absurd. It was a great experience for me, though of course staying at a private home is very different from staying in a hotel, and very limiting in some ways. For people wanting to do this, "legal" hotels just don't offer that same experience, and I think such a service can certainly be profitable. However, it's not going to be mega-profitable like Uber or any other well-known tech companies with giant IPOs and huge valuations. And this I think is the problem: greed. Why can't the owners just be happy with something that makes a tidy profit and provides a nice service to people who want a different travel experience than what you get staying in a bland hotel room?
      • htrp 7y ago
        VC money needs 100x returns
  • esoterica 7y ago
    Who would do all that travel and work for $5? That’s a small fraction of minimum wage.
• btbuildem 7y ago
  I'd be tempted to work that flophouse over with a sledgehammer and a crowbar. Would the scammers have any recourse?
  • freeplay 7y ago
    That would have been the move. - Destroy the flophouse - Leave a 5 star review on your original booking saying how nice the place was - If the scammers attempt to complain to AirBnB or charge fees, kindly tell them that's not the place you stayed and you have never seen that location. Refer them to the original listing for the beautiful home where your reservation was. Scammers would be claiming you destroyed a place that AirBnB has no record of you ever staying in.
  • marcodave 7y ago
    With the scammers having your personal data, name and (maybe?) address? I'd think thrice before starting a feud with a scammer.
• wayoutthere 7y ago
  I have had this happen to me twice. The inconvenience of putting up with this bullshit outweighs the $50/night I save. It happens frequently enough you do have to consider it in the equation. This has pushed me back to traditional hotels.
• kkarpkkarp 7y ago
  wow, I have seen the same when I have been looking for a house at Airbnb on Corfu. Because I have been checking many places on this island, in different areas, I found some houses with the same bathrooms (just photographed from different angles). I found it must be scam and I have chosen different place. That one if I remember clear I have reported to AirBNB
  • onemoresoop 7y ago
    Did it have any reviews? I haven’t been scammed at all (yet) but I was always cautious knowing it’s not as consistent an experience as in hotels and relied heavily on good reviews. So far so good. I wonder if and how those could be scammed similar to whats been plaguing amazon..
• nakedrobot2 7y ago
  Dear Airbnb, You have destroyed the rental apartment market in my city. You profit from taking advantage of loopholes in legislation, legislation which protects consumers from unscrupulous, dangerous, and untrustworthy properties. The sooner every city enacts laws limiting "airbnb" apartment rentals to 30 days per year per apartment, the better. Otherwise it is abused at scale.
  • atotic 7y ago
    Wow. I had my own bad AirBnB experience, and privately decided never to never use them again. I wrongly assumed it was just me. This is sad, I thought AirBnB were one of the good guys, and had a good experience 4 years ago. Is there something about doing things at scale that makes things go bad? It seems like so many companies are great at start, but go downhill when their assumption that "fraud is a rare exception" does not hold.
    • htrp 7y ago
      Communities don't scale. Airbnb 4-8 years ago was a quirky thing that biased towards tech early adopters. Because it wasn't wildly profitable, it didn't become a magnet for scams yet. As the community grew, the population includes more diverse people (including the bad actors). Once bad actors find it's easy to get around the loopholes, they tell others and the scams become prevalent.
• AlexDragusin 7y ago
  Which is why I always stay at hotels, proper and good hotels that have reputation at stake, where upon checking in I do a cursory check and promptly but politely report if I see any issues. Upon checking out I request a person to actually sign-off on the room. Works like a charm, never had an issue!
• scurvy 7y ago
  It's becoming very clear why the company has resisted going public for years. Increased scrutiny and visibility is going to show everyone exactly how shady their business is. You can almost guarantee a FTC investigation within a year of going public. Also, why don't people issue charge backs with their credit card companies? Airbnb customer service might suck, but credit card companies almost always side with their customers if there's a modicum of proof showing something henky.
  • scurvy 7y ago
    Self reply since I can't edit, but the FBI has recently contacted the article's author. First, FBI investigation for criminal activity. Then FTC case for ongoing consumer deception and fraud due by failing to police their platform and turning a blind eye to obvious criminal activity. We've passed peak airbnb.
• julienchastang 7y ago
  There have been a few threads about AirBnb lately with a lot of people reporting negative experiences so I will add my own $0.02. I have stayed in many AirBnbs. The reason is, I find it is the only way to have a tolerable family vacation is when everyone has their own sleeping quarters. When we are all piled into one (often overpriced and not so clean) hotel room, it makes for less than ideal sleep and everyone ends up grouchy. Plus when you travel with children, it is really nice to have a kitchen and a way to do laundry. At any rate, my observation for all my AirBnb stays is most of them are quite nice. Many hosts go to great lengths to have their guests have a nice stay. There have been a few crappy experiences, but not many. The main downside for me concerning AirBnb is it takes a long time to analyze the listings to find quality accommodations.
  • swozey 7y ago
    Yeah I've stayed at lot of airbnbs (20-30 a year) and only had good to great experiences. I've met a lot of hosts that I specifically look up when I visit their city again. I've had plenty where they weren't exactly what I expected, like thinking a cabin I was renting was in the woods from the pictures but it was on a gravel driveway with trees in the background, but my trip wasn't ruined or anything. I've unfortunately had reservations cancelled in the 24hr window and had to rush to find something else, or accepted an insta-reservation but never heard back from the host. I've not looked over the fine print, seen airbnbs with pictures of ovens and shown up to microwaves (this is my fault but the pictures don't help). Those are my biggest host issues. I will say though that I dread what you said - analyzing listings. The airbnb.com UX is atrocious. I thought it was pretty sub-par when I'd look at listings just planning trips for myself. But now I try to plan trips with my partner through it and she has her own account, so I share lists and listings within lists. It's awful. I recently went on a 2 week road trip and stayed at different places every day. I'd have to have google maps open to plot distance between airbnbs and parks, I couldn't go back into a listings actual ad to see its details once I confirmed a reservation (I had to search for the listing again and go to it, the reservation details don't show the actual posting), I'd have to keep a separate app open just to keep notes of each listing, I use my todo list, which I then also had to share with my partner separately because there's not really a way to thumbs up/down/leave comments on listings. I'd send her listings and she'd get errors or they'd just never end up on her account. If I add her to a listing I don't think it shows up in her reservations so I still had to send all the info to her, she'd just get an email about it. Does anyone do this sort of stuff on any of the other sites? Vrbo, etc? Is there a really good roadtrip planning app? Are they easier to use in these situations? I honestly don't want to deal with it again it was that frustrating. Also, while I'm here ranting, and as an ex-airbnb host and very avid airbnb user. Please, chill out on your cleaning fees. I cannot believe some of the cleaning fees I find. Quit using it as a way to lower the daily cost so that you show up on more searches. Nothing turns me off from a place more than putting a reservation together and noticing that my 2-3 day stay will incur $150+ in cleaning fees. I would rather pay a slightly higher daily fee than $45-80/day in "cleaning" when I'm a single person renting your studio just so I can spend 80% of my day hiking outside of your place. I can't remember if I could control this based on the number of guests staying but if you can, please do it.
• mykowebhn 7y ago
  Just curious, this post has more points in less time or about the same time as other posts that appear higher. Why is this not the number one post?
• jbverschoor 7y ago
  Yeah, I stopped using Airbnb a loooooong time ago, and only use it when the price diff is something like 4 fold. Too many bad experiences. Yay booking.com and normal hotels
  • baobabKoodaa 7y ago
    I have the opposite experience. After several bad experiences with hotels I 'm mostly using Airbnb. Fewer issues.
    • astura 7y ago
      What sort of issues do you have at hotels that you don't have at Airbnbs?
      • baobabKoodaa 7y ago
        One time a hotel - which I had fully paid for a week earlier - kept badgering us for money throughout our stay. They said that we had been given too low of a rate due to some error. The rate wasn't even low, they were just trying to scam us. Furthermore, they had our booking for 1 week and they chose not to contact us about the issue until we arrived (making it really infeasible to change hotels on such a short notice). Another time our hotel room was smelling like a sewer and the hotel refused to fix the issue or move us to another room. Just two examples there. Hotels are generally awful.
  • magduf 7y ago
    I've only used it once, about a year ago. I wanted to visit Nuremberg, Germany, but I picked a terrible time of the year when the hotel rates were atrocious. So I looked on AirBnB and found an older couple renting a bedroom in their private home about 30 minutes away from the city for only about $45/night. It turned out to be a really nice experience, and I think this is what at least some people are looking for. Staying at a private (and very nice) home with some hosts (who actually live there) in a spare room is an international experience you won't get with a hotel or even a hostel. For me, it was mildly inconvenient that I had to take a train 30 minutes to get to the city those two days, but it was well worth seeing a small town I wouldn't have seen otherwise, and getting to meet actual German people and see how they live and attempt to talk to them in my broken German. I guess you just really have to be careful when you use a service like this. It's like eBay in a way: you can get ripped off on there, but if you're careful and only buy from reputable sellers, you can get some great deals.
• cryptozeus 7y ago
  Wow that overstock barstool link comes across as a scam itself.
• zschuessler 7y ago
  I hit a variation of this scam. I wasn't baited on a different space, but the listing was heavily misleading. I even had roommates even though the listing didn't state it! The listing had 5 stars because of a network of shill accounts leaving fake reviews. Additionally, there is no penalty for deleting a listing and recreating it when the fake 5-star status runs out. I contacted Airbnb about the shill account network, and the scam, and they didn't do anything about it. Although I got a refund, I wasted 3 hours of my life trying to get into a locked apartment that had my things in it before a plane took off. The shill accounts still exist. Haven't used Airbnb since. I might gamble for a chic destination listing for fun, but never again for casual/business use.
  • jzwinck 7y ago
    I got surprise roommates once too. An entire family living in one of the bedrooms in what I booked as a 2 bedroom unit. Turned out the place had 3 total bedrooms, and while I would have understood if the host lived in the third, this was a totally unrelated tenant with multiple children. I contacted Airbnb and they said sure I can cancel, I just need to get the host to agree. Which he obviously did not want to do. This took hours to resolve.
• giarc 7y ago
  It's always interesting to see scammers at work. The nature of scammers, atleast the ones that get caught, put in 95% effort, and it's that last 5% that gets them caught. In this case, imagine if instead of trash furniture and minimal decor in the "switch" property of "bait and switch" they put in half decent stuff. Renters would probably all accept the story of a plumber and move on. Instead, they fill the property with crappy furniture and leave unhappy customers. They could have gotten away with it.
  • marcodave 7y ago
    Well, if a scam is successful and unnoticeable, by definition we won't see any articles about those, right?
    • giarc 7y ago
      You are correct, I guess my point was more about the fact that they were so close to getting away with it. Cutting corners never pays.
      • pessimizer 7y ago
        They did get away with it, over and over again. And when the scam was discovered, they went dark. They could have even switched to alternate accounts, alternate platforms, or even a different scam that utilizes those empty properties. Not getting away with something in perpetuity is not the same as not getting away with it. Had they been more timid with their margins, maybe they would have been busted before making the money they did make.
• esmi 7y ago
  This plumbing switch-er-roo scam is not new. A hotel tried the same thing on me in Paris in 2000. I booked a hotel in district 1 and they tried to move me to one on the edge due to flooding. Luckily I had been warned by a friend and refused. After I made a fuss the manager magically found an open room for me.
• cryptozeus 7y ago
  “If I had another choice, I would not use Airbnb again,” he told me. “I was very put off by getting scammed. But at this point, I feel like if I want to travel, there’s not really much else I can do.”...how about HomeAway, vebo ? There are other options. Also of course airbnb is to blame for handling the support issue poorly, however my experience with airbnb has been nothing but amazing. Same nonsense can happen at any 2-3 star hotels. Never book airbnb without some research. If any issues come then file a complaint before your trip ends and ideally within first 24 hr.
• jcomis 7y ago
  This scam is common in Europe as well. Something very similar happened to me in London where I was seemingly renting from a nice regular person who had a single well reviewed listing. Once I arrived I was met by some guy from a property company who said he "worked with" the lister and he was going to move us to some place better. He showed us a total dump with dilapidated Ikea junk. He basically threatened us with poor reviews/no refund when we didn't take it. Airbnb did literally nothing. I had to reach out to friend that works there to get traction. Same thing happened in Florence to friends the following year. Luckily that time I had already bailed on Airbnb and got a hotel. But after I helped them look into it I found several instances of the photos/description from their well reviewed host used on other accounts.
  • dboreham 7y ago
    London specifically is known for this BS even before AirBnb.
  • lfmunoz4 7y ago
    Did you try to do a credit card charge back?
• deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
• netsharc 7y ago
  Well, I've written a few months ago that I don't want to give such a scummy platform them their 30%, regretfully I still did use them last month, so to put my money where my mouth is, I just deleted my airbnb account citing the article. https://www.airbnb.com/account-delete/reasons https://www.airbnb.com/account-delete/reasons
• Phillips126 7y ago
  I've never used AirBnb. However, when making online purchases (even for physical items) I don't have a lot of trust. Many systems (reviews, ratings, etc) are all too easily exploited. While the thought of staying at a stylish house is more appealing than a room at a hotel chain, I at least know what I am getting myself into. I've had my share of... not great rooms at hotels, but they typically make it right with a room switch or reimbursement. It doesn't sound like AirBnb is good at that.
• eagsalazar2 7y ago
  The amazing thing to me is how rarely this really happens. Some people love to say that human nature is fundamentally greedy and deceitful but here you have an enormous system based entirely on trust and reputation (since apparently AirBnB doesn't have checks beyond that) and although there are examples of abuse, overwhelmingly people have a good experience. However I think most likely it isn't that AirBnB has no checks on hosts, they are just a big stupid company dealing with a messy problem. I've heard similar complaints from hosts with their own set of anecdotes where they felt unfairly abused by renters who unfairly complain and AirBnB applying decisions without any transparency or recourse.
• scammedAnon 7y ago
  I was similarly baited on the Chase credit card travel site. Bought a few nights at what was advertised as a Hilton in Miami but on the day of got instructions that made it clear we weren't staying at a Hilton. Turned out to be a vacation rental in a condo in the same building as the Hilton. The listing on the chase travel site used a similar name as the Hilton (neither the real or fake actually use the word "Hilton" in their names), same address, same photos (pool, restaurant, front desk, rooms, etc), and even figured out a way to list the reviews for the Hilton in it's listing. Ultimately we stayed elsewhere because the condos were flop houses. Chase didn't have any interest in helping us or making it right after dozens of calls and hours of conversations. As far as I can tell the "properties" have all been removed. (There were similar listings for other name chain hotels like the W chain)
• angel_j 7y ago
  This isn't about airBnB, this is about all the big web tech companies, which found the algorithm and got the monopoly. They created new markets and can't be bothered to shake out the many scammers who find the myriad loopholes in their big, dumb systems. This goes for Amazon products as much as Google SEO. B/c of their monopolistic power, they just move on, and leave a wreck in their wake, which becomes our web and environments.
• ragle 7y ago
  I wonder if I almost fell for this (or similar) in Pattaya, Thailand just a few days ago? [1] - https://abnb.me/eUIhQCkMe1 https://abnb.me/eUIhQCkMe1 [2] - https://abnb.me/DvHRkqsMe1 https://abnb.me/DvHRkqsMe1 At first, I thought maybe this was just a shady property management company hocking two otherwise-legit, similarly-furnished condos with the same floor plan in the same building through two different accounts - but they are in different buildings separated by about half a kilometer according to the map.
• mannykannot 7y ago
  Does the scam described here count as wire fraud? "In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872." In addition, is there any prospect of a civil class-action suit against AirBnB?
• bluedevil2k 7y ago
  I've run into a scam recently on AirBNB and several situations that ended up screwing me over. The scam was after booking a nice place in Orlando, Florida for a week through my wife's AirBNB account. The day after booking, the "owner" sent an email saying that they required a photograph of the front and back of her credit card, drivers license picture and full name. Not even a subtle scam, but that would probably fool most people. After contacting AirBNB support(which is a difficult task itself, good luck finding a form), they took 3 days to respond and responded with a "yeah, don't send them that. Sorry". Of course, the listing is still there now when I look. I've also booked trips to Tokyo and LA recently, and in each place the reservation was accepted, payment was made, and 2 weeks before I was set to stay there, the owner canceled the stay. Why? Doesn't matter, the owner can cancel without penalty for "unforeseen circumstances". Of course the renter gets charged a massive fee for canceling including, naturally, AirBNB's fees. My fraud alert is always on high now when using AirBNB and I think no one should put all their vacation eggs in the 1 basket with them. Too unreliable, too flaky on reservations, and too we-don't-care-about-you attitude towards the renters.
  • pavel_lishin 7y ago
    The renter gets charged when the host cancels the reservation?
    • nickip 7y ago
      In my experience no. But it puts the renter at a disadvantage. I have had them cancel 5 days before my flight to a small island. Least to say it was extremely expensive to rebook a new room that matched the "quality" of the airbnb I was expecting. Of course if I had cancelled 5 days before I would have been on the hook for half the amount of the stay and the service fees, due to the cancellation policy the host choose (Do the host choose these?).
    • bluedevil2k 7y ago
      No, it's a huge inconvenience. I suspect that once their place gets booked via AirBNB, they jack up the price on HomeAway/VRBO and see if they can get a better price, then cancel the AirBNB if they do. It's risk free for them to cancel, so why not.
• htrp 7y ago
  Scaling the community is an existential growth problem for ABNB ... unfortunately their policies haven't kept up with the problems that have been introduced
• drenvuk 7y ago
  First time I stayed at an abnb with friends it was set up as home that hosted 8 people with 4 rooms... I was situated in what I would consider to be a mud room with a space heater next to the garage on thin, uncomfortable mattresses. I moved into a hotel room a couple miles away and just came over for dinner and activities. I'd much rather plan ahead and stay in a hotel. At least then there's a corporate culture who actually cares about their brand name instead of an IPO. There's no accountability and massive amounts of low key fraud.
• Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  Random business idea: AirBnB but with verified properties. Actually AirBnB can do that themselves easily enough, just hire people to check properties. Or hire secret guests, if the renter redirects the user to another property, withold payments / ban them from the site. But quality is not in AirBnB's interest, apparently - being cheaper is. They get a cut from all financial transactions anyway. Once they're listed on the stock market the people currently running it can retire and it's no longer their problem.
  • m0dest 7y ago
    I think you just reinvented Airbnb Plus https://www.airbnb.com/plus https://www.airbnb.com/plus
  • marcodave 7y ago
    If by "verified properties" we can infer "regulations and warranties", aren't you just reinventing hotels?
    • aembleton 7y ago
      But with a kitchen and other amenities.
      • altoidaltoid 7y ago
        So you mean "extended stay" hotels? Residence Inn, Homewood Suites, etc...
• buckminster 7y ago
  With nearly one hundred rentals this scammer must have been making some serious money. That's fraud on a grand scale in multiple states. Isn't that what the FBI is for? The journalist should make a report.
  • rgharris 7y ago
    It looks like the FBI has contacted Vice about the article. > Update 11/1/19: The morning after this article was published, the FBI contacted VICE about the claims made above.
• eatbitseveryday 7y ago
  How does this experience look when outside the USA? The article is only about travelers inside the country and most comments seem to be so, too. When my family travels, we usually leave the country.
• veselin 7y ago
  This is a not very difficult problem to solve. Whenever there is a dispute, send somebody to verify the property. For sure AirBnb already has an anti-abuse team, so it is an extra step there. Also, disputes anyway cost them money for the person that answers emails, sometimes do refunds, legal risk, etc. So it will also not be more expensive. It is one of these "growth" problems that a company is good to have and normally solves in an easy way. Furthermore, the author is still an active user of AirBnb.
• vizzah 7y ago
  I stopped using AirBnb. Their customer service on a number of occasions made it apparent they are not going to deal with hosts who have fake and outdated pictures and ruin other guest's stays. It seems hosts are the only side of the equation AirBnb folks care about. Airbnb let the host write a review on us for the stay which we didn't even take, as when we arrived in the apartment it was in a such appalling state, dirty, broken - we had to spend 4 hours inside while looking for the replacement and trying to convince Airbnb this apartment is inhabitable based on their T&Cs. Yes, we managed that but couldn't find an adequate replacement for the same money and had to move into the hotel. At the same time, Airbnb let the host write a super-negative review about us for not taking this apartment and never sent an invitation to myself to write my own review. I could not even image it is possible to write reviews for cancelled stays! I was left with negative review and ruined stay just because the host could care less and because Airbnb protects hosts first and foremost. Guess what? Most of non-scam non-inhabitable properties listed on Airbnb are almost always available on other sites, including a well-known booking site. Where you pay and receive service and have means to complain or at least write a review without the fear of being reviewed back for something you are not even at fault. I had 23 positive reviews and that one last negative. When I later tried to book an apartment and started asking a few questions to host (have to be fastidious with the choice as I often stay for 2-3 weeks, so need to ensure there is no construction works around..etc) - the host has referred to my last negative review and told me I won't be welcome. And that was that proverbial straw.
  • ilikehurdles 7y ago
    I still browse AirBnb's listings on occasion, but the last few trips have ended up booking directly with hotels, Lodges/Inns/BnBs, or vacation rental companies. When taking a look at the true prices, inclusive of fees, and what level of property I get for them today, Airbnb often comes out much more expensive for comparative properties. I might still have better experiences in less touristy locations than the ones I travel to. Not to mention the ridiculously strict long-term cancellation policies Airbnb allows hosts to apply that wouldn't fly in any other style of vacation housing. I loved the service back in the early twenty-teens, but I had a strikingly bad experience with a home I tried to book in Boston. The owner found out her home listing had rats a few days prior to check-in, and admitted to not being able to get rid of them fully before the date, leaving the possibility of rats getting poisoned/killed by the traps she set up. All of the communication was via @airbnb.com emails I had responded to, but Airbnb's support couldn't find any records of these messages. It took multiple calls and entirely too much effort to get an eventual refund plus a tiny credit on their site -- not nearly enough to book a replacement property that close to the date anywhere within city limits. Meanwhile, like I mentioned, the prices of properly licensed and managed vacation options have become competitive with Airbnb while offering more reliable and flexible wrt date changes and cancellations.
• welly 7y ago
  This has happened to me, earlier this year. Luckily it was just for one night and the room was low cost anyway (£35 for central London!) so should have seen this coming. Oddly enough, there was someone living in the switcheroo apartment I ended up in and they were paying £800 a month! I reported it to airbnb today after reading this story and checking that listing's reviews, almost all of whom had reported the same problem and airbnb have come back to say they've cancelled the host's account and listing.
• dopamean 7y ago
  What a wild story. I search Austin property records for "shray goel" and the guy owns a house literally around the corner from where I live. I wonder if I've seen him around.
• steelframe 7y ago
  I'm going on a 10-day vacation overseas at the end of this month. Given how infrequently I do big vacations (a personal issue I'm working to overcome), I have zero tolerance for surprises when it comes to my accommodations. I simply look for large and established four- or five-star hotels that have been around for a while and have numerous positive reviews across several web sites. Another hack I do is to use the "!mill" directive in DDG to filter out corpspeak and SEO-type stuff. I try to book directly with the hotels whenever possible -- although sometimes language and cultural barriers make that prohibitively tricky. I once spent half an hour trying to book something on a Japanese-language hotel web site (making generous use of page source and Google translate) before giving up and going through Booking.com, since there are apparently things about Japanese hospitality culture that I'm not clued in to. In the end, I probably pay something like 50% more for my accommodations than I could if I were to take chances with AirBNB. But for me, the insecurity and potential for high-stress situations once I arrive in a foreign country just aren't worth it.
  • dboreham 7y ago
    One thing with Japanese hotels is they have a thing about the ratio of people:beds. We traveled to Tokyo a few years ago with our two pre-teen sons and it was very difficult to find a hotel that would fit us into one room.
  • 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
    Can you explain the "!mill" directive?
    • scrooched_moose 7y ago
      It redirects to Million Short, a search engine that removes results for the top N websites. Helpful for filtering out the Pinterest/Yelp/AngiesList/Home Advisor spam that fills the first several pages of results for most local searches.
      • 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
        Very cool. Thanks for the explanation. It sounds useful!
• tus88 7y ago
  > Airbnb advises the guest to request a cancellation if they’re “not okay with the switch.” This is beyond vile. The booking had already been cancelled by definition by the host, the refund should be automatic. They act like it's Hotel where you haven't booked a specific room. I'll never touch this POS company.
  • pentae 7y ago
    Yeah when i'm travelling the last thing I want is surprises with the place i'm staying, but people are so price sensitive they will put up with a lot. One common thing I see in this thread is people act like theres only two choices: Hotels or Airbnb. I've never had a booking on HomeAway that wasn't on par or exceeding expectations.
    • afjl 7y ago
      This is actually the first time I've heard of HomeAway, thanks. The only short term rental company I've ever used or heard of was Airbnb. I'll probably be shopping around the next time I travel.
      • taormina 7y ago
        FYI, their consumer name is VRBO. The HomeAway office is here in Austin, but the actual app you use is called VRBO (and I think all the offices are getting new signs soon?).
        • biztos 7y ago
          Originally "Vacation Rental By Owner" -- which I thought was the name of the web site years ago.
      • 01010001 7y ago
        How ironic to be reading this on HN of all places, it’s almost impossible to say this without sounding patronising but the thought of inserting ‘house for rental in destination’ or ‘destination holiday rental’ on any search engine never crossed your mind?
• trenning 7y ago
  Airbnb won't provide a full refund in many of the cases from the article but shouldn't you still be able to file a charge back on your credit card and get your money back without dealing with Airbnb? Does it work like that or do I have a misunderstanding of how charge backs work?
  • afjl 7y ago
    According to a number of posts, (some?) credit card companies have closely partnered with AirBnB and will not accept your chargeback.
• JadoJodo 7y ago
  I'm not sure how to fix all the issues outlined in this article, but I think that a 14-day, double-blind review period started at checkout would alleviate some of the trust issue presented here. That is to say: Once checkout has completed, both Guest and Host have 14 days (21? 30?) to write their reviews (neither party can see the others' review). At the end of that period, both reviews are visible on the site and cannot be edited.
  • metalliqaz 7y ago
    The website only mentioned it briefly but Airbnb has no incentive to do anything that will shrink their number of hosts right now, even if those lost hosts aren't reputable. They have their eyes on an IPO and they are focused on making the platform as large as possible, even it if damages their reputation in the long run
  • OkGoDoIt 7y ago
    Isn’t this currently the case? As far as I can tell you don’t get to see the other review until you’ve written and submitted your own.
    • JadoJodo 7y ago
      I've only used Airbnb once, so I'm unsure. But given the "retaliatory reviews" mentioned in the article, it seems not; How could I retaliate if I don't know what your review will be?
      • Zebfross 7y ago
        They are right; it works that way now. Maybe the "relatiation" is in anticipation of a bad review?
  • jobigoud 7y ago
    You just described exactly the way it works right now. How did you think it worked?
  • kingbirdy 7y ago
• dvirsky 7y ago
  I had just deleted my AirBnB account a while ago and swore not to ever use it again. Didn't get scammed, just had a bad experience, but it's just not worth the stress. You're stressed about getting scammed, stressed about the place not being good, stressed about cancellation, stressed about getting a bad review, stressed about breaking someone's shit by accident, etc etc.
• wil421 7y ago
  Like I said in another comment I would immediately call Amex and then file a police report. There’s no way I would have stayed in that kind of place. There are plenty of hotels in Chicago from Boutique to chains to roach motels. Why subject yourself to so much crap by AirBnB? Especially if you’re alone. https://www.airbnbhell.com/ https://www.airbnbhell.com/
• dannykwells 7y ago
  I think what Airbnb, and uber, lyft, Amazon etc. All fail to understand is the longevity ans stickiness of brand. Once you become an untrustworthy or low quality brand, it's very hard to change that. You can still do fine (see: wal mart) but you'll always be looking over your shoulder for higher quality brands that poach the most lucrative customers, and eventually, thats what will lead to your downfall (see: wal mart)
  • curiousgal 7y ago
    At least with Amazon, their customer service makes up for any fake goods they sell.
    • ghostly_s 7y ago
      Amazon provides customer service?
      • Liquix 7y ago
        Their live chat is fairly responsive. With regard to low quality or knockoff goods it's pretty trivial to get return shipping waived or $5-20 store credit, as long as you don't abuse the system.
  • organsnyder 7y ago
    Walmart has had a "downfall"? I prefer to avoid shopping there, but the business appears to be doing quite well.
  • harryh 7y ago
    Ah yes, the downfall of WalMart. The...checks notes...largest company by revenue in America.
    • booi 7y ago
      yeah if anything Walmart explicitly disproves this statement. Also see Dollar General et. al, Comcast, AT&T etc..
• Nextgrid 7y ago
  I wonder why nobody has ever attempted to dispute the transactions with their card issuer. These scenarios seem like pretty solid grounds for chargebacks. If they attract enough chargebacks Airbnb will not only take a hit to their wallet (and maybe reconsider their policies if it happens frequently enough) but also might get them in trouble with their acquirer bank (too many chargebacks and your merchant account gets terminated).
• NelsonMinar 7y ago
  I don't understand why AirBnB doesn't take this kind of fraud more seriously. All they have is their brand reputation. This kind of fraud will destroy that.
  • chippy 7y ago
    Why? As the last paragraph says, and many comments here echo, people will still use the service. There is literally no reason why they should take it more seriously unless they were a) socially minded or b) under legal investigation.
• otterpro 7y ago
  I've had good experience both as a host and as a guest on airbnb, but these incidents are definitely serious enough to reconsider using Airbnb. If Airbnb would implement a home-owner verification (which is possible in US since they're public record), most of these scams would be preventable. I mean, Airbnb is a billion dollar company, so couldn't they do this?
• mancerayder 7y ago
  I wasn't scammed with AirBNB but I've had bad experiences, and the bad experiences happened more recently, while stellar experiences happened in the past. My most recent experience was an apartment in Paris that was smaller than it appeared, hadn't been cleaned so it had crumbs on the floor, had a bed with what looked like sheets out of the package (never cleaned), and the owner's dirty clothes sitting there. But the worst was the toilet was electric, requiring being pushed down with a brush when flushing. No, that's simply not the norm in Paris. There was also construction on the building, despite my emailing the host (a company with a person's name), asking about noise. Like the Vice author, I never left a review because I didn't want to appear difficult or even get a retaliatory one in case I want to use AirBNB in the future. BTW, in Paris it's regulated, complete with an issued ID for the property, but cities care only for tax collection, not consumers. That may have been the last straw for me.
• tempsy 7y ago
  I find it pretty crazy that AirBnB's tech never really evolved on the host or guest side at all. The experience is still basically like a pretty Craigslist with payment processing. I sometimes wonder what an engineer there even does other than maintain a CRUD app. For example, why isn't there an Alexa-like concierge device in every AirBnB that answers guest questions by now? Why aren't there smart locks on every home that unlocks with the app? Etc etc.
  • duxup 7y ago
    I think it is because evolving further in those areas inevitably could expose AirBnB to information they are happy to be ignorant of / responsible for. A lot of tech companies, including AirBnB operate by passing risk / responsibility off onto everyone else (the host, the customer) and thus saving AirBnB a great deal of time / money.
    • Loughla 7y ago
      >A lot of tech companies, including AirBnB operate by passing risk / responsibility off onto everyone else (the host, the customer) and thus saving AirBnB a great deal of time / money. That's what I've never understood. When uber got big, their argument was "we're not a cab company, so we don't have to work under the same regulations". Yes you are. You use an app instead of a radio dispatch. That's the difference between you and a 1980's cab company. The entire middle of the country is getting wise to "we're not x" just means "we certainly are x but we're avoiding the liability because technology" and they're getting sick of it.
      • duxup 7y ago
        I'm imagining a future where a "we're not a garbage company" starts dumping garbage randomly... and they say we're supposed to blame their contractors.
  • zippzom 7y ago
    I also don't understand why there's no lock that integrates with the app. Getting into Airbnbs is consistently inconsistent and confusing.
• thecouve 7y ago
  I fell for probably the early version of this back in 2015. Google fi number with a non-existent property in LA. Host confirms, emails photos, minimal back and forth about check in. We show up at the property and it clearly doesn't exist, lucky for us the number is disconnected now and he won't answer us. This is clearly a scam. Though it's Airbnb's policy to give the hosts an hour to respond to a complaint even though it's obviously a scam. We then have to wait in the ghetto of LA for an hour so the host can respond, he never does. Finally Airbnb agrees that it's a scam and that the property doesn't exist, the address is dead center in a industrial park. I then have to go book a hotel on my card that Airbnb will refund at a later date that is equivalent to what we booked, nearly impossible for booking on day of. So going forward we spent 1.5hrs driving to the fake property, 1hr waiting for the fake host to respond, 1hr to confirm over phone how to proceed with Airbnb, then another 2hrs going to a hotel and checking in. All in all it wasted over half a day of our vacation, gas money, and frustration, over an obviously fake posting.
• gerbilly 7y ago
  Who would have guessed that there might be something to all the rules and regulations that have been written around traditional hotels and taxis? Just because something is ordered through a phone doesn't make it better in all respects.
• fortran77 7y ago
  Please note that Y Combinator is an investor in Airbnb. https://www.wired.com/2017/02/airbnbs-surprising-path-to-y-combinator/ https://www.wired.com/2017/02/airbnbs-surprising-path-to-y-c...
• Julien_r2 7y ago
  Few days ago I stumbled upon an article from Paul Graham from 2008 that fits well in the current topic imo - Be good (http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html) He describes how startup sometime follows the pattern "You grow big by being nice, but you can stay big by being mean." And it's the feeling I have today about Airbnb.. I use to love them, not only because of the concept, but also as a startup pushing innovation, sharing tech and design learnings, etc. It had a sens of contributing to community, and caring its users Today I despite them for the uncontrolled impact they have in cities, and the we-don't-care philosophy they seems to have adopted (not to mention the feeling of being betrayed by a company I use to look up to). And I can't really blame ourselves for keeping on using it. They created "something that people wants" and now are taking advantage of it. It's probably our responsibility now to remind those companies that "something we want" is a product along with a care for its users.
  • bvandewalle 7y ago
    this should be higher up and is exactly how I feel. I will go out of my way to never book an Airbnb again and I'm pushing all my friends to do so as well.
• iblaine 7y ago
  It's Oct 31st so this thread seems like a good place to post Airbnb horror stories. The first Airbnb I rented was part of an interview at Airbnb. I was given a credit for a free Airbnb for the purpose of experiencing the product. The Airbnb I rented was in San Francisco and clearly used only as an Airbnb rental. The second Airbnb I rented was with my family while on vacation in Italy. One afternoon we returned to find out the locks were changed. This was scheduled building maintenance and I was not notified. I chose a place with a special ~'locals badge' only to find out the owner was an American living in the US. Given this is a tiny sample, Airbnb generally seems to have a problem with borderline fraud.
• knodi123 7y ago
  Wow, I think I got hit by this same scam in Auckland, NZ. Saw pictures of a perfectly fine little apartment. Showed up and it was actually a furniture storage unit- the living room had two couches, three desks, and two commercial scanner/copiers. The bed had 12 full-sized pillows and one sheet, and the sheet was so starched that I pinched the middle and lifted it to head height, and it just stayed there. You could sculpt it. The silverware drawer had 5 knives and one chopstick. The kitchen trash was full. The shower had a drain full of hair. I had to go buy soap and paper towels at a convenience store. I called the host (a "retired local woman") and got a man with an indian accent who offered me a "much larger and nicer property a few kilometers away", which I couldn't take because I was traveling with my family and we were just exhausted.
  • dplgk 7y ago
    I wonder what would happen if you trashed the place? What would the host do? Send photos of the trashed place that looks nothing like the listing?
• flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago
  Funny to see how internet giants treat their suppliers vs their customers. eBay's sellers are up in arms because it's trivial for any customer to steal from them and force a chargeback on an honest seller. Sellers cannot even leave negative feedback for dishonest buyers anymore. The customer is king. AirBnb is exactly the opposite, apparently. Screwing their customers for scamming suppliers that should be trivial to uncover. I wonder what economics are at play, here?
• elamje 7y ago
  There needs to be more vetting to avoid this situation entirely.
• cgearhart 7y ago
  > But my power was nothing compared to that of a company valued this year at $35 billion... It may not recover their loss, but the author wields significant power with this article. For example, I’ll never again consider staying at an AirBnB property. I would caveat that to add “until they fix the problems with their platform”, but I don’t think it’s necessary because (a) I’m not sure they _can_ at their scale, and (b) it certainly doesn’t seem like they _care_. Sure, I’m only one guy, but this is not the kind of press a company wants before they go public.
• apacheCamel 7y ago
  I am not sure why, but reading this article just made me feel pretty ill. How does someone (multiple someones?) have the moral ability to do these kinds of things? I seriously can't believe the whole stack, from AirBNB to the scammer, just let these kinds of things go. At the end, where the author states she will continue to use AirBNB because it is cheaper kind of rubs me the wrong way. For a company to allow such slimy things to happen with minimal recourse would just turn me off from them forever. And the scammer? To just rip people off, knowingly ruin peoples vacations (and other things, but I imagine mostly vacations) because "money" is just ridiculous. These kinds of stories just hurt me. I wish people were better, but I know these types of people won't stop scamming.
  • achillesheels 7y ago
    Shame is a very good immoral deterrent for the eager to deceive. Imagine knowing your future progeny are ashamed they come from grifters? (Quite astonishing people don’t make the connection that we are alive now on a world stage.)
  • munificent 7y ago
    There's a weird fundamental flaw in social groups which is this: 1. Trusting trustworthy people increases efficiency. The less checking and verification you have to do, the less redundant work there is and the more easily things go. 2. As the number of trustworthy people in a group increases, the value of choosing to trust a random person increases. The odds get greater that they will be trustworthy, letting you reap the greater efficiency of trusting them. 3. As the number of trusting people in a group increases, the relative value of malice increases. The more likely a con artist is to be trusted, the more likely they are to be successful at their goal. So there's this weird trust graph where as you approach 100% trustworthiness, you also approach 100% exploitability. The group gradually turns itself into a honeypot. So the stable equilibrium point is somewhere less of 100%.
    • apacheCamel 7y ago
      That makes sense but I guess the question is why? If things work and people are happy with a system, why do the opposite and ruin it? I know it isn't an easy question to answer and could really be anything, but sometimes I really just want to sit down with them and find out why. It is fascinating stuff, but it hurts to think about sometimes. Just because the value of becoming a scammer goes up, doesn't mean we should embrace it.
• jiveturkey 7y ago
  Nice piece, albeit a little bit clickbaity (par for the course with vice). It's a single small-time operator, maybe 2 guys, with a few properties across a few cities. Yes, technically it's nationwide, but the scope is that of a small time con, not some extensive and deep operation. To summarize, the photos and listings are fake, with fake host names and the requisite fake reviews. When you arrive, you get a call 10-30 minutes before check-in and told the plumbing is broken, I need to move you. Then you get put in a "flophouse". I suppose the move is so that the actual address where you will stay isn't listed on AirBNB and you won't be able to street view it, etc. Because otherwise I don't see the point of not putting you into the crap house at the listed address. Through a process of sloppy ops work on the scammer, and tenacity of the author, she uncovered the name and other personal details of the perp and confronted him. He then removed any digital trails of himself which he had so stupidly had publicly available before, thinking they couldn't be traced back easily. It's a great revenge story, the kind that gives you vicarious satisfaction. My only question is, why didn't the author call the FBI afterwards?
• senthilnayagam 7y ago
  in India I tried finding Airbnb’s in mumbai and hyderabad, some were hotels and guest houses, others were shady and often misrepresented.
• MaysonL 7y ago
  Gresham's Law hits the sharing economy…
• misiti3780 7y ago
  I'm using Airbnb in Paris and Spain in a few weeks - if this happened to me - what exactly should I do ?
• scarejunba 7y ago
  Interesting. When I signed up years ago to rent from Airbnb, I had to post verification from passport photos to Facebook to LinkedIn.
• Muuuchem 7y ago
  Doesn't surprise me that they are filled with scams, yet they ban anyone who has ever been in trouble for possessing any drug other than cannabis from using their service.
• tamalpais 7y ago
  A solution to this problem, which seems common to many large platform companies, could be third-party verification. A trusted third-party could subject hosts and guests according to a more stringent vetting process. It could even scan listings for guests eager to book in the same way Fakespot, et al., do for Amazon product listings. [0] For those interested in online trust in marketplaces, I recommend Planet Money's episode on the subject. [1] [0] https://www.fakespot.com/ https://www.fakespot.com/ [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/06/27/623990036/episode-850-the-fake-review-hunter https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/06/27/623990036/epis...
  • lovehashbrowns 7y ago
    Sadly, that adds friction to the sign-up process. Companies that operate like this, "charge instantly, investigate eventually," are like the plague. Amazon is getting up there, too, with its co-mingled inventories full of counterfeit products. But at least Amazon has good customer service. I'm very scared of using airbnb because of stories like this. I've only used it once. All other times, I've stayed exclusively in hotels, because at least then I have a proper way of getting my money back. I have a way to know that if I book my room, I'll have somewhere to stay, guaranteed. I have a way to get a new room instantly if my current room is unacceptable. And with a hotel, I know who I can complain to! That's the worst part about this dumb scam for me. Airbnb refunds you a small percentage of the full price, and the host ghosts you. Now you're SOL unless your credit card company has mercy on you and decides to rule in your favor. What a shitty, stressful situation.
• RenRav 7y ago
  TLDR the listings are fake. You book a nice house and they'll tell you a problem came up, but they offer to switch to a different one. The alternative house is cheap and run down, it's their real property though. When you switch and stay one night at the alternative, you can't get a full refund. Because so many bail out and leave, expecting to be refunded, they can make it available to rent again immediately. You're also pressured into not leaving negative reviews, so the cycle continues.
• alias_neo 7y ago
  A few years back my wife and I went to Dubrovnik, this is before it went nuts due to GoT, I should add. We went there with a couple of friends planning to have their wedding there, traveling from our homes in London. We booked two air BnB rooms, both were very nice looking double rooms in central locations next to the old town. We arrived at the address we'd been given and a local guy "owner", greeted us and took us for a short walk to where we'd be staying. We arrived at an older looking home, high walls and a large metal gate. He opened it and welcomed us to his home. His grandma's home he told us. He walked us inside and showed us to a box room with two wooden bunk-beds, the type you put children in. The floor was flooded and the small ensuite was too, flooded. The look on our faces might have said enough if we hadn't, but we certainly were not staying there. He suggested he'd try find some "alternative" accomodation. We waited nearby, and a short time later he arrived to show us each to locations he'd found. First our friends, a nice newish apartment, they were quite happy with, although it was smaller than what they had booked, but still pleasant enough. He took my wife and I around the corner and into a small home that had painted cement walls, flaking like you see in war films, after the war has been through. An old man showed us to a small double room where he'd laid a bowl of fruit on the bed for us, he didn't speak English, but although we didn't speak his language either, we felt welcome, albeit slightly uncomfortable. The place wasn't particularly clean or nice looking, and certainly not what we paid for, but after a bit of a dead end with the original guy we booked with, we figured he's guy is farming off rooms that don't exist and then subletting rooms in others' homes when guests arrived. We decided we'd take it, but we needed to see the bathroom first. Again, not clean, not pleasant, but worst of all, a small window, just above the shower opened into the old man's room, and it was open, is wasn't frosted and there was no way to cover it. That was it for my wife, that was one bridge too far. She can't comfortably bath in there with a window opening into this stranger's room in a strange place. We told the owner guy it wasn't going to work for us, and this is where the rest of this story breaks my heart. The owner guy let the old man know we wouldn't stay, and the old guy broke down, he was begging us to stay, he was gesturing at the fruit he'd laid out, questioning what was wrong, but we just couldn't stay there. The rest of what happened to us is irrelevant here, but the guy we'd booked with was clearly taking bookings he was farming out to elderly locals with any space to spare hoping renters works take whatever he offered. Both sides of this deal were being scammed, and it broke my heart to know that although we might end up forking out to stay elsewhere was the worst we might suffer through this, this old man clearly needed whatever small part of the rent we paid was going to be given to him. The rooms we saw online clearly didn't exist, this guy was just conning people because AirBnb allowed it to happen.
• herodotus 7y ago
  There is a larger problem here: there seems to be no way to hold these big internet companies to account for misrepresenting their product offerings. For example, some time ago, someone on HN reported on a plagiarized Python book for sale on Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced-ebook/dp/B07N4QDH92 https://www.amazon.com/Python-Programming-Beginner-Intermedi...). I emailed the author of the original book,(October 4) because Amazon have a form that allows authors to report plagiarism. This is what he replied to me: "Thank you for your note. Someone else discovered this and notified me three weeks ago. I went to the Amazon copyright infringement webpage and filled out the form. The automated email told me to expect a formal response in 1-2 business days. That was three weeks ago, and I’m still waiting." So Amazon have, for more than a month, been told that they are selling a stolen book. And yet the listing is still there. Now if I reported that my local bricks-and-mortar second-hand store was selling my stolen TV set, I'll bet that the police would be there pretty quickly. But Amazon and BnB can sell stolen goods or misrepresent offerings with impunity. This is not right.
  • calmworm 7y ago
    Amazon is one of the worst offenders for facilitating scams and doing nothing about it.
  • puranjay 7y ago
    At this point, ordering certain products from Amazon is basically playing Counterfeit Roulette. You never know if that bag is a real Michael Kors or a Chinese knock off
  • erichocean 7y ago
    > So Amazon have, for more than a month, been told that they are selling a stolen book. And yet the listing is still there. If Amazon acted quickly, you could easily take down the listings of your competitors simply by making false claims—which has happened in the past.
    • ric2b 7y ago
      Acting quickly does not mean acting blindly. And getting a human to start looking into it within a week isn't that much to ask.
• majos 7y ago
  People who have been scammed like this on Airbnb: did you a book a well-reviewed place? As a precaution, I only stay in places with at least ~50 happy, realistic reviews. I've stayed in maybe a dozen such places and never run into anything worse than slightly unclear arrival instructions. I'm not saying Airbnb is great, but I'm curious as to what these eventual scams looked like at the outset. I suppose it's possible for someone to maintain a legitimate place to accumulate good reviews and then scam some fraction of people, but the existence of the legitimate place is still a nontrivial hurdle for a scammer. Maybe I overestimate how hard it is to get 50 good reviews.
  • lammalamma25 7y ago
    I'd be interested in someone with a good profile selling it to a bad actor for a lump sum. I'm not saying this happens, but it seems like it would be easy to do/very hard to prevent. Especially if you're moving out of the original listing. Generally number of reviews is a good measure of quality IMO.
• ejain 7y ago
  Just talked to someone at Airbnb. Two takeaways: 1. If the property does not match the description, take pictures (they won't just take your word for it). 2. If you are told that the original property is not available, contact Airbnb right away, and they will give you a full refund and help you find a place to stay (Airbnb or otherwise). Fortunately, I've never had to put any of this to the test...
  • lixtra 7y ago
    > 2. If you are told that the original property is not available, contact Airbnb right away... Can you ask your friend how to contact Airbnb such that you get a reasonable fast response, say within 1h?
    • ejain 7y ago
      I don't know anyone at Airbnb, but simply contacted them via https://www.airbnb.com/help/contact-us/channel https://www.airbnb.com/help/contact-us/channel, and had someone respond right away. YMMV.
      • lixtra 7y ago
        Thanks. Your thread should be on top.
  • nowandonly 7y ago
    https://www.linkedin.com/company/abbot-pacific/people/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/abbot-pacific/people/
• nojvek 7y ago
  I used to be a big AirBnB fan but they've really gone downhill. I've been denied refunds. So many places have false advertising. I'll go back on AirBnb or whatever new platform that gives a 3d reconstruction of the actual place, and the actual sleeping quarters. The wide angle heavily photoshopped pictures that Airbnb encourage make it extremely hard to know if the place is worth it or not. And then there's the hidden cleaning fees which could be 100s of dollars. They don't show up on the initial search. The numbers are all towards making it seem cheap but being quite expensive at the end. AirBnb uses a number of dark patterns on their site and I hate it. I just don't think they are an ethical company who have the customer's focus in mind. I understand though, they gotta recoup their billions of dollars of VC funding. I'd rather go for a hotel that I know provides consistent experience every single time.
• yason 7y ago
  The late cancellation by host without no specific penalties seems to be one of the most prevalent yet disturbing elements in this. The one who's travelling has the weakest odds of all. The traveler will be in a foreign place with no place to stay. In contrast, the host has no losing cards except some income. The rules should, thus, have been written to protect the traveler at the expense of the host because the host can take more hits from bad luck than the traveler. If the host really needs to cancel they should have to put the traveler in a real hotel as an upgrade to remove all doubt of the traveler getting into a place that could be worse. They have already received the money from the traveler so they only need to pay for the difference. Just cancelling late without any particular reason could be done but at a very high cost. And if the host's place did burn down for real then a few hundred extra to pay for the guest's hotel for a few nights will surely be a negligent cost.
  • OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but > And if the host's place did burn down for real then a few hundred extra to pay for the guest's hotel for a few nights will surely be a negligent cost. is a very narrow view of someone who just lost their house to a fire. Even assuming nothing irreplaceable was lost, I feel my upcoming AirBnB guest might not be my top priority.
    • longerthoughts 7y ago
      Any idea what hotels typically do in this situation? It's not exactly apples to apples but if you're going to make money by the same methods it seems within reason to play by similar rules.
      • perlgeek 7y ago
        > Any idea what hotels typically do in this situation? They pay other hotels to take you in, and have insurance for the worst case (house burning down).
        • 7y ago
• willyt 7y ago
  Bear with me there is a point to my preamble... So in the UK if you buy a train ticket and the train is late and as a result you miss a connection to, say, a ferry then the train company is obliged to put you right. For example, by putting you up in a hotel until you can take the next ferry or finding another way for you to continue your journey so you don't miss the ferry. I once had a free 100 mile taxi journey because the train was late and I was going to miss my connection which would have required an overnight stay. I am not a lawyer (also this is UK law) but I would be really interested for a lawyer to comment on this, because my understanding is that the reason they do this is because the train timetable is an 'invitation to treat' on which you based your decision to enter into a contract with them by purchasing a ticket to transport you from A to B. If they fail to do this in a timely fashion as advertised on the timetable, such that your journey with them is wasted, this is a breach of contract and contract law says that because they failed to honour the contract, they have to, as close as possible, put you back in the position you were in if you had not entered into the contract with them. They can not get out of this with T&Cs because its a basic principal that if you offer one thing obviously and then say the opposite hidden in the small print, the more prominent offer is what you are held to. In this case (again, remember I am not a lawyer but on the assumption that the same basic principals were to apply) my theory is that the problem is AirBNB's to resolve because the contract would be between me and AirBNB because the money changed hands between me and AirBNB. So if AirBNB advertised 3 nights in a city for £1500, I paid this and then I arrive and the host cancels my reservation at the last minute, after I have expended considerable time and expense already with the expectation that I have accommodation, I would ignore the host and contact AirBNB directly because I paid them the full cost of the booking and the fact that they subcontracted the actual service to someone else is none of my business, it is ultimately their problem to make sure the contract is honoured by putting me up in another equivalent place or by providing a full refund and paying any additional costs involved in me staying in the closest equivalent place available. So I wonder, if they don't do this within a reasonable time, could I stay somewhere else and then file small claims court case against them for the cost? If the 1/3rd refund thing from another comment had happened to me I would certainly be tempted to try it to get £1000 + hotel bills back + cost of my time to prepare evidence for the claim at my standard hourly rate. I have experienced one or two situations where companies have tried to rip me off and taking 30mins to tell them in writing that I will claim, how I will do it, what my grounds for the claim are and how much it will cost them has got them to back down and agree a refund and compensation before I got anywhere near having to fill out the online form for the small claims court, which is apparently not a big deal anyway. No idea if I would have won or how much time and cost is involved though... In general, if people would stick up for their rights more, then the costs of shady business practices like this would make them unprofitable. Could be a great business idea for an online lawyering startup, like those that exist for flight compensation claims.
• elchupanebre 7y ago
  Here is another scam that someone tried to pull on me. I booked a place in Reno a week in advance. On the night before check-in at about 2am I got a text from the host asking me to increase the price of stay by $20. That was small and I did not want the hassle of arguing but just decided to leave it till morning. In the morning I looked at it again on computer (as opposed to the phone) and saw something odd: the dates of stay we crossed and replaced by the exact same dates. Then I saw that weekdays were off. Then it dawned on me that the scammer changed the dates of stay to the next year and added $20 just to distract me. The scam is simple. The scammer lists the same property twice with ~30% difference in price using slightly different photos and descriptions. The cheaper one goes first. If he books it at the higher price he kicks out the first renters with the "next year booking" scam. Reading reviews made it quite clear. I reported the scammer to AirBnB, got a refund + $100 but they did not do anything other than $100 fine to the scammer. The crook makes more than that from a single scam. AirBnB just does not care. Pecunia non olet.
  • jancsika 7y ago
    That is such an elegant scam. It's like a magic trick complete with misdirection. Is there market where HN-type people come up with these and sell them to people to implement?
    • NilsIRL 7y ago
      I doubt it because people are ethical (I hope). But this is so true. I feel like I always come up with so many loopholes but because of their nature of being "scams" I obviously don't do them.
      • jorathexploruh1 7y ago
        You realize you just “hoped” people are ethical as a reply to a post describing a way in which at least one person was claimed to be unethical If you can use a pattern to grift off the system someone is using it. What’s most likely you’re not aware or emotionally predisposed to avoid connecting those dots
    • 7y ago
• outworlder 7y ago
  > But Airbnb, which plans to go public next year, seemed to have little interest in rooting out the rot from within its own platform. This is what will pop the 'startup' 'bubble'. Eventually people will get tired of dealing with the 'unicorns'.
• forrestthewoods 7y ago
  Dumb question. Can you not “just” do a charge back? I feel like Amex would refund me. Especially if there is any documentation. I’d also wager that if every case of fraud had a chargeback to match that AirBnB would start making changes far sooner rather than later. Has anyone tried (or failed?) to chargeback AirBnB fraud?
• cwkoss 7y ago
  Whenever you're asking for a full refund in cases of fraud, regardless of the business, be sure to use the word "chargeback" with the customer service rep. Fraudulent sales can be easily reversed by your credit card provider. In my experience, saying "If I don't get a refund, I'll issue a chargeback through my credit card provider" gets them to process the full refund immediately.
  • the_watcher 7y ago
    Yep. Just be clear that you'd really prefer to resolve it with the company, but that if they refuse, you view it as fraud and will pursue appropriate remedies.
• rhacker 7y ago
  I'm probably never using AirBNB after reading this, and many of the stories I am seeing in HN.
• lammalamma25 7y ago
  I've been living in Airbnbs while backpacking through Australia for the last year. Here are some things I've learned for anyone needing some tips (Also because I like to share stories) Pictures on the rental are meaningless. Only the price and amenities matter. Whatever the lowest 10% of price per night for a type of home (private vs shared room etc) is probably a scam. Don't rent in this price range. Money may be different for each person, but the upside of saving $100-$200 is way less than the downside of a last minute booking in a place you're unfamiliar with. I suspect most of the scams happening are people who book something that seems too good to be true. If you're able to, message the host prior to booking with a generic intro and some generic questions. Many many times when the host got back to me for a great looking listing, alarm bells went off and I moved on. I personally ask what their internet speed is. If they don't know this its not a deal breaker, but their response can be pretty telling. A lot of professional renters list on Airbnb. Especially multi-bedroom houses where you rent one bedroom. These can go either way, but are often a good deal. I personally like these because its a business transaction for both sides. Usually these types of listings are more open to negotiating on price, but its not staying in someone's home like an Airbnb might be pictured. Reviews don't mean too much, but number of reviews and/or super host are pretty good barometers for quality. It is much harder to fake a lot of reviews. A less obvious red flag is the age of the listing vs number of reviews. If there are only 3-4 high reviews on something around for a long time, look closely at it. Even if the reviews aren't fake. There is a lot of incentive to not review a bad experience. Unfortunately price usually correlates with number of reviews. I've personally never booked a new listing (no reviews). I'd be interested to know if I'm passing on some amazing deals, but my risk/reward tolerance doesn't allow it. TLDR; Ignore the pictures look at price range compared to the marker and message hosts before booking at all. Adjacent tip: Bring the bare basics with you (maybe this is backpacker logic talking). I usually have a knife/fork/spoon as well as some toilet paper and enough close to be warm without blanks. Don't rely on them to have things you absolutely can't survive without. Its stupid you have to do this, but you can rest a little easier having it with you if something goes wrong.
• thinnerlizzy 7y ago
  Several months ago my AirBnB (2FA enabled) account was compromised. The scammer booked me for a property - the listing populated with blatant stock photos, no ratings - that was stated to be somewhere in England, but the pin on the map was somewhere in the ocean off the west coast of South America. Once I raised the issue with them, I didn't hear from them for over a week. While I was concerned about the ~$1000 they owed me, I was equally concerned that someone had accessed my account. After about a week had passed I got them on the phone again and applied a little pressure, and a couple days later I had my refund. I did this by explaining that I work in the industry and I'm aware of what a big deal the ability to bypass a large company's 2FA is, that there's no excuse to drag their feet over such an obvious scam, and I vaguely alluded to media being interested in a story like this. I don't know how Average Joe would have fared in my case. By reading the article and this thread there appears to be a variety of ways to conduct a scam on AirBnb.
• 01010001 7y ago
  > In 2015, Airbnb spent at least $8 million on lobbying efforts to fight back an ordinance in San Francisco that required all Airbnb hosts to register their units with the city in a lengthy process. The ordinance passed anyway, severely reducing the number of properties available. But not all cities have San Francisco’s budgetary resources. When New Orleans overhauled their short-term rental laws in August, for example, the budget-strapped city mostly left oversight of the new rules in the hands of Airbnb. > “If I had another choice, I would not use Airbnb again,” he told me. “I was very put off by getting scammed. But at this point, I feel like if I want to travel, there’s not really much else I can do.” > I can’t say I’ll be leaving the platform, either...is still just a bit cheaper than renting a hotel. This blows my mind. I had a terrible experience when Airbnb took over the top floor flat when I used to live on the ground floor, so I decided to never use them, I travel regularly and always use a mix of hotels and vacation homes depending of the destination and I never needed Airbnb. But even after being scammed and spending their holiday time moving around and being shafted then spending time after the holiday fighting for a refund and losing money these people still find value in the service, mind blowing.
• the_watcher 7y ago
  Why didn't the author take photos of everything, then take the documentation of what happened to his bank and issue a chargeback?
• Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
  I've only used Airbnb once, but it was a smooth experience. But after reading this and all the comments here, I'm unlikely to use them again. As far as I'm concerned, Airbnb is complicit in all these scams. They literally give zero shits about these scam artists, because they're getting paid either way.
  • robocat 7y ago
    It sounds like you are overly risk-averse (I'm guessing you are not a founder?). AirBnB is rewards versus risks, as the article author implies right at the end. I have used a wide variety of accommodation: AirBnB, hotels, staying with friends, short term rentals, campervans, cars, outdoors, staying with randoms I have met. They all have benefits, and they all have risks. AirBnB has given me a huge range of different benefits, and I super appreciate that it exists.
    • Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
      Correct, I'm not a founder, and honestly I roll my eyes a lot about how founders on this site are treated like some sort of demigod. You didn't comment on my opinion that Airbnb is complicit in the scams. Do you not agree?
      • robocat 7y ago
        > founders on this site are treated like some sort of demigod I certainly hope that isn't the case, and it wasn't my intention to imply that. This site was primarily begun for founders AFAIK, and I am one myself. I just wanted to say that founders are supposed to make intelligent bets on risks. Employees often take risks too. Sometimes employees have less control over their risks than founders do, and sometimes they make the right bets.
• Marazan 7y ago
  Airbnb is a scumbag company that knowingly profits off of active criminality. It is shocking that they are in any way considered a _good_ company.
• dsr_ 7y ago
  The solution is the same as it is for so many other issues: strict liability for Airbnb. If the company is responsible for finding you a hotel room of equivalent capacity and paying for any difference in price, the company will quickly devote resources to minimizing this kind of fraud. As long as it's not Airbnb's problem, Airbnb isn't going to solve it.
• ir77 7y ago
  I've used Airbnb exactly once, probably 8 years ago once. Me, wife, her parents and my parents all met up in Paris. I rented a 'luxury' apartment that was enough to sleep 8 people and looked great in pictures. When we got there half the furniture was gone because the guy apparently got divorced between when the pictures got taken and his life "now", half the beds were kid's mattresses on pull out beds, there was no longer a shower but literally a full fledged hot-tub that had a flex shower over it. the coffee machine and half the utensils in the kitchen had mold on it. we never got enough towels for all the people. we stayed there for one day and couldn't do it anymore, i sent an email to Airbnb and the owner asking that we part ways amicably and they let us out of the contract, both replied that it was past 12 hours that we stayed there and i was liable for full cost. i went outside to a payphone, called collect to a number listed on my platinum amex and explained the situation, the first thing the amex rep said: "i'm sorry to hear about your situation, we're immediately refunding you the full amount, go find a hotel room, enjoy the rest of your vacation and we'll call you when you get back to the states". when i got to the states i had my money back from amex and Airbnb for weeks would write to me that "they're investigating my situation", at which point i didn't even bother reading their emails anymore. it was a crap company then and it seems like it's a crap company now. there really isn't any reason to do business with companies that don't value the customer, no matter how appealing the "price" may be.
• balls187 7y ago
  > Airbnb only refunded me $399 of my $1,221.20 ... and I figured it was probably the best I could do. Is there a reason Credit Card companies wouldn't step in here for the disputed charge?
• rhizome 7y ago
  $35B valuation being run like a $300K company, if that. There is no way AirBnB is a legitimate company. They take in money that may or may not be the result of actual crimes, particularly bait and switch and fraud, and the company has ensured there is no way to know whether any reservation is legit.
• someonehere 7y ago
  Airbnb does not care about what hosts do. They just want to be the source of short term rentals no matter what it takes. I’ve been hosed the last three stays and Airbnb does not care. I stay at hotels now because if I’m not happy with service, I can get a different room, I can get a refund, I can talk to a human face to face. Airbnb is a platform that just cares about hosting as many hosts as possible and they’re unregulated. I’m not asking they be regulated, but why doesn’t Airbnb check in on Super Hosts? It seems Super Hosts (from the three times I got screwed) run their places by outsourcing cleaning and maintenance, without ever spot checking.
• hpcjoe 7y ago
  Airbnb has had issue for a while. This[1] is a post I wrote about them in 2014. Basically, it is not in Airbnb's interests to provide quality control, or stop these scams, as either action will negatively impact their revenue. [1] https://scalability.org/2014/03/ot-airbnb-and-their-issues/ https://scalability.org/2014/03/ot-airbnb-and-their-issues/
• Havoc 7y ago
  Yeah airbnb is hit & miss even without scammers. Prefer hotels where possible
• Seb-C 7y ago
  I used to love AirBnB at the beginning because it was a great way to meet locals and live a bit like locals. Unfortunately it became too big and now it is very hard to distinguish genuine residents interested in meeting tourists from professionals that I will not meet at all and whose process is almost completely automated. That completely ruins what was once an awesome human experience. I'd rather try couchsurfing or stay in a hotel...
• saneshark 7y ago
  As someone who has lived out of AirBnB for almost 3 years traveling all around the world and never once being scammed, I find the title of this article to be a bit alarmist. AirBnB has host and guest verification options. If Becky and Andrew don't have their identities verified via drivers license but manage over 90 properties that is your first red flag right there. Second, if the host can't accommodate you you reach out to AirBnb and put the onus on them to find you an acceptable property that meets your standards. You don't let the host offer up some random place that happens to be available, that's suspicious. I've had a number of hosts cancel on me at the last minute recently, I didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that it must be a scam. I simply assumed that their property is also listed on VRBO and other sites and someone either beat me to the punch or they got more money, or they didn't realize that they can't list the unit and forgot to take down the listing. Mistakes happen. Sure, there are scammers out there on every platform, but in my 3 years and over 100 successful stays, I really find this article's title tough to swallow.
• cnst 7y ago
  I don't understand the whole value proposition of Airbnb; and would never use it willingly myself. The prices are often more than what you'd pay for a hotel, the security and reliability is often less, and then if these sorts of things happen, you then have to haggle with case managers for a he-said-she-said type of situation. Same thing with Uber — at least there, you get the convenience compared to having to call a taxi. What exactly do you get from Airbnb? I travel for business lots, and the last thing I need to worry about is having to deal with these sorts of issues. Having a hotel and a car rental is so much easier and reliable.
  • sjg007 7y ago
    Business travelers are not the target demographic...
  • adjkant 7y ago
    I think for business your stance makes perfect sense. For me, I regularly use airbnb for personal travel to stay in a neighborhood and really explore a city. Often hotels aren't an option. You also often get a fullish kitchen to cook in which is nice for anything more than a few days. As mentioned elsewhere, being vigilant when booking can often avoid these. I've booked around a dozen places with no issues. Very much disappointed that Airbnb doesn't do better though, as generally the time searching of course is valuable. For me it's just not as valuable as the way I explore a city coming from an Airbnb instead of a hotel, so it's still a worthwhile service.
• Amygaz 7y ago
  My account on Airbnb has also most likely been hacked. Twice over the summer someone tried to book using my Airbnb account and my expired CC. I hadn't used Airbnb in 3 years. Airbnb support was completely useless both times. So I cancelled my account everything, and the CC support will deny any Airbnb transaction. Anyway, it is so annoying to search anything on Airbnb that I am not compelled to use it. The "host" will advertise a one night price that can easily double with all the other fees, and double again for each additional nights. I'll revisit when accountability standards are raised from the maker to the user. (edit: added "my account")
• ahaferburg 7y ago
  I once got a partial refund from Airbnb, but under the condition that I couldn't post a review. For that reason alone I will never use Airbnb again, and would advise against it.
• gubatron 7y ago
  Wish there was a TL;DR; section on that post. It's a freaking bible book. Bait n switch at the last minute scam?
• homakov 7y ago
  Airbnb reviews are practically useless. Numerous of times I've been to 10-20 good-reviewed apartments that ended up too dirty or noisy so I had to go to a hotel. Also, for no reason Airbnb prohibits from sorting by reviews or price, so I've developed this script - it's super userful: http://sakurity.com/airbnb.js http://sakurity.com/airbnb.js
• ryanmarsh 7y ago
  I travel nearly every week for business. For almost two years I stayed exclusively in Airbnbs. I was giving Airbnb as much business as one person can. I had several truly terrible (even scammy) experiences in those two years and not only did Airbnb not refund me a dime but each time I contacted support I was not recognized as a frequent traveler who is used to the system and has great feedback from hosts, each time I was treated like I was some asshole trying to scam them. Airbnb has a major major quality problem (not to mention the customer service). The platform has turned into a joke. Try this on for size, say "this Airbnb looks great in the pictures" to anyone with experience using the platform and watch their non-verbal response. We know. I wonder how long Airbnb can keep this up. Lastly, the Airbnb Plus program is no better. I stayed in a Plus a few weeks ago in Milan and it was a dump that looked nothing like the pictures, even with different furniture. That was my second Plus disaster in a year.
• hispanic 7y ago
  At this point, I've probably booked four dozen Airbnb stays over the past 7 years or so. Given that, I'd say two of the simplest steps you can take to limit your chances of booking really bad Airbnbs are to 1.) limit your bookings to those places where the host only has one listing and 2.) limit your bookings to owner-occupied places. It seems like the worst elements of Airbnb are largely eliminated when staying with the host, rather than insisting on having the entire place to yourself. I've written-up other advice regarding Airbnb bookings here - https://blog.michaelscepaniak.com/how-to-find-choose-and-book-airbnbs https://blog.michaelscepaniak.com/how-to-find-choose-and-boo... With that being said, scams happen and there's no simple, full-proof way of completely insulating yourself from them.
• skydv1 7y ago
  tldr?
• alistairSH 7y ago
  Interestingly, as I was searching Airbnb today, I came across this... https://www.airbnb.com/plus https://www.airbnb.com/plus It appears they do have some homes/hosts that are verified in-person. For whatever that's worth.