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Tesla’s new Solar Roof costs less than a new roof plus solar panels
- nunchuckninja 7y ago>federal tax incentive They are still around?
- MichaelApproved 7y agoYes but starting next year they start to decrease every year.
- tictok4 7y ago* after a rebate from OPM.
- bluedino 7y agowhich lists $42,500 as the total price for the average 2,000 square-foot home, with 10kW solar panels. It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. I had a roof put on my 1600sq ft ranch and it was only $8,000
- daviddavis 7y agoDoes your roof generate electricity though? A solar roof is a roof + solar panels.
- dx87 7y agoIt's not going to cost 34k to install solar panels on his roof. Tesla's claim seems disengenous at best.
- eloff 7y agoIt's comparing apples and oranges. Presumably the OP is not using premium concrete (terracotta) tiles on his roof. Tesla is cheaper than a premium roof with solar panels and the details of said comparison are laid out on their site.
- dx87 7y agoThe comparison on Tesla's site still looks misleading. "comparable price of a typical roof + solar panels" Having premium concrete shingles isn't a "typical roof". They also use small greyed out text to say they are comparing it to concrete shingles, but use big black text for the higher price, and hide the fact that the Solar Roof is only cheaper because of tax breaks behind a "See More" button.
- cure 7y agoFor a ~10kW (AC) system you're going to pay about that much, I just had it done. It's misleading to look at the price of the panels alone. You also need (micro) inverters, you need to have it hooked up to the the grid, you need several inspections (construction + electrical). Getting all those panels installed on your roof and wired up is quite labor intensive as well. The installation cost is significant.
- imglorp 7y agoHow many kw of solar did you add and what did that cost on top of the 8k roof?
- wil421 7y ago> Tesla’s Solar Roof website now includes a pricing estimator, which lists $42,500 as the total price for the average 2,000 square-foot home, with 10kW solar panels. It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. You can also enter your address and get an updated estimate that takes into account local costs and incentives, and add on any Powerwalls (with three as the default for a 2,000 square-foot roof). $42k does not sound like the solar roof is cheaper than a traditional roof. What kind of roof are they comparing it to? A mini-mansion with terra-cotta shingles or asphalt shingles? A quick google search and home advisor suggests it’s about half the price.
- the8472 7y agoCheaper than traditional roof plus solar.
- aphextron 7y ago> Cheaper than traditional roof plus solar. I find that really hard to believe. A new roof runs between 5-10k, and a 3kw solar system can be had for ~5k + labor. Even if they are including a power wall in that price it's still pretty steep. Edit: It looks like they are actually quoting a 10kw system with 3 power walls (~40kwH storage) included, which at that point sounds about right at $40k. Still far beyond the reach of anyone but the wealthy, but not necessarily a bad deal if you're in the market.
- the8472 7y agoLabor is a significant part of the cost, both for a roof and for a solar installation. I assume only doing it once is one of the gains in cost-efficiency.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- t34543 7y agoRoofs in my area are 20k for 1200 sq ft. Asphalt shingles. I would love to live in an area where it’s 5-10k.
- s_Hogg 7y agoWonder what build quality is like with this. Is Tesla starting to get this kind of product issue sorted?
- tgtweak 7y agoApparently the build quality issues (roofs shorting, catching on fire) were traditional panels, and not manufacturer by themselves.
- dx87 7y agoI wonder where they're getting their average price from, because I've never heard of a new roof and solar panel installation being that expensive. EDIT: They're comparing it to concrete roof tiles, which a quick search say that they last for ~50 years, twice as long as the warranty for the Tesla solar roof. https://www.tesla.com/solarroof/design https://www.tesla.com/solarroof/design
- clavalle 7y agoI'm getting solar put in and it's about that much.
- cure 7y agoSame here. The numbers line up, roughly.
- IshKebab 7y agoWarranty is different from how long something will last.
- cowsandmilk 7y agoSo, should we expect the Tesla roof, which has historically had so many issues that they’ve done very few installations, to suddenly be able to last 50 years?
- gibolt 7y agoWhat issues? They did very few installations of previous iterations because they took a long time to install, thus were expensive. Doesn't mean there were any quality issues
- what_ever 7y agohttps://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-solar-panel-fires-become-nightmare-some-homeowners-2019-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-solar-panel-fires-beco...
- admerox 7y ago2 questions: - If you opt-out of the powerwalls can the system switch to the regular grid when needed? - Can you sell energy back to the regular grid in case you produce more than you need?
- quaquaqua1 7y agoLast I heard from PSEG, anyone who produces extra energy is just given a credit towards their next bill, there is no redeemable cash value. Not bad though :)
- 6nf 7y agoIt depends on your local power grid. Sometimes yes, you can sell it back.
- mepiethree 7y agoYes you can switch to the regular grid and yes you can sell back your power in most states ("net metering"), though that often just manifests as a credit for your night time electricity usage. 38 states, DC, and Puerto Rico allow this. https://www.seia.org/initiatives/net-metering https://www.seia.org/initiatives/net-metering
- quaquaqua1 7y agoEEVBlog would like to have a word with you-- are these systems efficient? There are concerns about cleaning, repair, and angle of insolation compared to traditional panels.
- meristem 7y agoAnd a history of difficult customer service
- bArray 7y agoI think a major challenge that is yet to be addressed is the fact that solar panels lose their efficiency over time [1] [2]. Seems like you're looking at 80% of rated efficiency after 20 years - and I'm unsure this includes failures. In the UK a 50+ year old roof is very common - most people expect a house to outlast them without anything but minor repairs. If I were building a house I would want something where it's primary power source can be repaired without larger than necessary costs. [1] https://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/ https://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels/ [2] https://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/7475/What-Is-the-Lifespan-of-a-Solar-Panel.aspx https://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticle...
- deelowe 7y agoIn the US roofs last more like 25 to 30 years for shingles.
- werdnapk 7y agoThe manufacturer states 25-30 years for shingles, but it's rarely the case they actually last that long unless you're paying for premium shingles. I'm in Canada though, so perhaps the harsher weather has something to do with that. Regardless, in Canada at least, 25-30 years for shingles is not common; 15-20 is more realistic from what I can tell in my area.
- rjkennedy98 7y ago> It also lists $33,950 as the price after an $8,550 federal tax incentive. There is something absolutely astonishing about the fact that in America the way we have go about being eco-friendly is to give huge tax breaks to rich people to buy solar panels and electric vehicles. To think with all that money we could build better infrastructure and denser housing. Really boggles the mind.
- pgl 7y agoReally? Isn't that how all successful technology starts off - highly priced, effectively experimental, but then becoming more and more available to the general public as the price goes down and production increases?
- reitzensteinm 7y agoThe trouble is that you're necessarily picking winners and losers in order to design the incentive scheme. It makes no sense to pay somebody $7500 to buy a new car to drive to work, but not to switch to cycling or telecommuting. In this case, it's not necessarily clear that this is a product that needs to happen. Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale. Were there a carbon tax, there'd be the same encouragement of environmental solutions while leaving the market some flexibility in achieving that goal. With that said - I'll take the politically feasible solution rather than nothing.
- rory096 7y ago>Grid scale solar is significantly cheaper due to the economies of scale. Utility scale solar has met the same ardent opposition in land use decisionmaking fora as denser housing, including from 'environmental' organizations. Some examples from around here: https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/culpeper/culpeper-county-planners-deny-solar-project/article_c1f3bdca-a5a9-5afd-acae-7e0c1c288563.html https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/culpeper/culpeper-coun... http://lakegastongazette-observer.com/news/article_8f621d6e-f89a-11e8-a2ac-aba2c52fbcb3.html http://lakegastongazette-observer.com/news/article_8f621d6e-... https://richmond.com/news/local/central-virginia/powhatan/powhatan-today/solar-farm-withdraws-application-after-board-denies-appeal/article_5efbcfd8-459a-11e9-9f47-ab35e59dc6b4.html https://richmond.com/news/local/central-virginia/powhatan/po... https://starexponent.com/news/county-committee-backs--acre-cap-on-utility-scale-solar/article_5d482d9b-6881-514b-8f5b-340593551e10.html https://starexponent.com/news/county-committee-backs--acre-c... https://www.pecva.org/library/documents/Our-Mission/Energy/Energy-Conservation/Utility-Scale_Solar_Policy_Document_-_Working_Draft_-_July_2019_-_Piedmont_Environmental_Council.pdf https://www.pecva.org/library/documents/Our-Mission/Energy/E...
- gameswithgo 7y agoThis claim came up a couple years ago, and it is only true when considering very expensive/fancy roof types. It isn't at all true compared to normal shingles.
- zaroth 7y agoThe interesting parts of the call yesterday for me were talking about the challenges they have with v2, although we didn’t really get to hear much about how those issues were addressed. First, that basically everyone was pulled off working on Energy to deal with Model 3 issues because they were do or die for the company. Now with Model 3 under control those resources were put back into Energy - solar, roof, and storage. Second, there was not a fundamental manufacturing issue with the solar glass roof, but rather it was a product which fundamentally was not worth scaling until the economics made sense. The economic driver Tesla is targeting is that anyone getting a new premium roof with solar would pay less for the solar glass roof than to get the new premium roof and then add panels separately. For someone with an existing premium roof with significant life remaining, the solar glass roof may still be something you choose, but it’s not literally going to be cheaper. The major issue with v2 was what they call “edge conditions”. It is funny that this sounds like software guys talking about roofs, not probably the way that roofing guys would talk about it. But they are talking about anywhere that two planes meet on a roof where tiles need to create a waterproof barrier. Flashing, ice & water shield, etc. With their v2 product this required essentially custom fabrication in the field - what Elon called an artisanal roof, like building the airplane out on the runway. This required several days (even weeks) of work on-site to fabricate and install the product, and so they were never going to try to scale that. Version 3 is supposed to address the fundamental issues with edge conditions. I didn't catch a lot of detail on the call of exactly what they did to address this, but the end result is that they do not expect to have to do any custom fabrication on-site, and they are targeting a process where a largish crew can compete an average roof install in 8 hours, ultimately they want the tiles to go down as fast as asphalt (which is quite fast if you’ve ever watched it). Lastly, they talked about reducing the number of sub-assemblies in the tiles by 50%, and the expected difficulty in ramping up production. Elon tried to be very clear that predicting the exactly volume output on the steep part of the S-curve is basically impossible, but they want to be producing enough for 1,000 roofs per week, and manufacturing is already under way for V3. They will be running install-athon competitions internally in Tesla on test roofs that they have to test different methods, and they also want to invite 3rd party contractors to compete as well. Their intent is to have both Tesla internal as well as 3rd party certified installers installing the glass roof. They will leverage their existing presence in 25 states where they do Solar today, and ultimately want the product available across 50 states. If I was able to ask a question on the call I would have asked about winterization. I want to know that they’ve tested their solution against ice & snow, and particularly that it won’t ice dam during a New England winter. Financially, I wonder how the margins compare to Model 3. ASP is in the same ballpark, so ramping up to 1,000 installs a week would be total revenue just barely on the same order of magnitude as Model 3 revenue, which was a serious reality check for me. Elon said on the Q3 call that they think Energy will be as big or bigger than EVs overall and that he thinks people are significantly undervaluing their generation and storage LOBs.
- stevehawk 7y agoDoes anyone know the situation for putting these tiles on one side of the roof but not the other? I live in northern Indiana and would gladly put these on my southern facing roof, but my northern roof is particularly complex (a lot of joints/edges) and obviously not really ever going to get any sun.
- tgtweak 7y agoI believe they have "dud" panels which are not power generating, as well as for edges and joints where a full solar tile wouldn't fit. I also imagine the cost they show is not for 2000sqft of generating panels.
- cjensen 7y agoThey produce solar and non-solar tiles. The "non-solar" are tiles which match the aesthetic, but don't collect energy.
- mepiethree 7y agoYou can do that with normal solar panels, or with these I recommend using project sunroof to see if doing so would make you money. They analyze your roof size and tilt, trees around your property, etc. For free. https://www.google.com/get/sunroof https://www.google.com/get/sunroof
- iamtheworstdev 7y agoDamn, neat site but they haven't done houses in my neck of the woods.
- ZeroGravitas 7y agoI quite like this product and think it'll be a big thing. I do wonder about a comparison to what I've seen recently, which is standard roofs with solar built in almost like skylights. Just big panels at the same level as the tiles, not placed on top in a retrofit. Seems like it's a good compromise (as long as you can get panels that blend with the tiles, and that generate enough that you don't need the whole roof covered).
- navigatesol 7y ago>I quite like this product and think it'll be a big thing. Do you like it more than when they released it 3 years ago, but never installed any? Can someone point me to the V1 and V2 installations?
- ZeroGravitas 7y agoYeah, I did actually. Similar to electric cars or open source it's possible to spot the potential of an idea when it's still in its infancy and not really ready for prime time in every circumstance. Roofs that generate make a lot of sense and many jurisdictions will mandate some kind of net zero build for new houses. I think there's a lot of room at the top of the market for this kind of product and it will just be standard at some point in the future. How much of that market Tesla gets and keeps is a harder question, but combining roofing with solar is too obviously sensible to fail I think.
- tomrod 7y agoI live in tornado valley. How do these hold up to hail?
- jcims 7y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imoSl2Y8LPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imoSl2Y8LPU Hard to say. Just liked the eye candy.
- Quequau 7y agoI have a friend in America who has a fairly large PV set up on part of his property. Listening to the all the obstacles he's had to overcome and all the surprising limitations he's saddled with, I can't help but suspect that the power company in his area that he's selling the power to would rather that these sorts of installations simply not exist. Coupling that with the fact that off-peak pricing isn't the norm in a lot of markets, I have to wonder if trying to implement smaller build outs is really worth the effort or expense... though I'll be the first to say that I've not researched it thoroughly.
- oliveshell 7y agoSome utility companies in the U.S. are quite solar-hostile. A major Alabama utility charges a monthly “backup fee” of $5 per kW of installed solar, regardless of usage: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users-power-company-fees-are-an-unfair-charge https://www.npr.org/2019/06/02/728761703/to-some-solar-users...
- jtc331 7y agoI’d bet the unsubsidized economics of residential solar for the utility actually make this likely a pretty reasonable number. I have solar myself, but we have to be honest that residential installs really destroy the economics of traditional power generation. And net metering regulation makes that even more the case, which is why net metering can’t last and/or storage will be required along with residential solar.
- mepiethree 7y agoThe profit model for utility companies is to build new power plants, power lines, and substations, and charge their rate payers for that build ("rate base" it). Then they get a cut of their expense as profit. If too many people build solar, the utility can't build new infrastructure and charge everyone for it. And, they now have to manage balancing solar production with electricity usage, which means hiring new analysts which can't be rate based. So, of course they are hostile to it. Personal, distributed solar cuts their profits and increases their costs. But, because their profit is based on charging customers for building new electric infrastructure, it lowers the costs for all of their customers when a group of people preempt that by installing solar on their homes. It is good for everyone when rich people buy solar; the air gets cleaner, and electricity becomes cheaper. So some states, like California, compel them to facilitate solar via tax credits and other regulations.
- executive 7y agoThen it catches on fire and burns down your house.
- SeaDude 7y agoBack of napkin math is: - 100ft.2 of solar panels (Qty: 5, off the shelf, ~3’ x ~5’ panels) = ~1kW of AC electricity (post-inverter, in low-sun Seattle) - At the roof, this represents 10 wires and ~8 roof penetrations (racking lags through flashing into rafters) AKA: simple setup, proven implementation Questions: - How many wires (points of failure) are in 100ft.2 of solar shingles? - How many roof penetrations? - How many roofer-electricians do you know? - Why can we not just embrace existing panel technology and put them everywhere, yesterday? Rant: - We don’t need boutique renewable energy, we need ubiquitous RE. - Elon, get your priorities straight. In the three years you’ve been trying to figure out the perfect solar status symbol, you could have installed megawatts of photovoltaics.
- cptskippy 7y ago> Elon, get your priorities straight. In the three years you’ve been trying to figure out the perfect solar status symbol, you could have installed megawatts of photovoltaics. They already do regular solar installs and so do a ton of other competitors. This is a boutique product for people who care about aesthetics and are willing to pay a premium for it.
- marcrosoft 7y agoIn what world is $42k the cost of a new roof?
- sabujp 7y agono it doesn't, I just got a quote for solar, 4.KW ~$7k. A new roof would cost about $10k
- gumby 7y agoThis looks like any other BIPV roof product -- what makes it different? More importantly: how do they plan to avoid the problems that have plagued BIPV for decades?
- gibolt 7y agoI'm not familiar with the existing issues, but likely thorough testing and quick scale. I'd expect tile durability and cable corrosion to be the main issues, which seem solveable.
- gumby 7y agoThey don’t seem to have addressed the two worst problems. One is interconnect — which drives the cost of installation and of maintenance too. The second is the bonding of the tile to the roof. Typically panels are mounted away from a surface so there is cooling airflow behind them. These are flush on the roof so heat up which is not only as for your house but dramatically reduces efficiency AND lifetime — which will be much shorter than the life of the tiles themselves. I haven’t seen any mention that this product brings anything new to the table and I’m sure they would have trumpeted it if so. Basically 2012’s BIPV roof solution AFAICT.
- valley-green 7y agoTesla overcharges for everything and acts like it’s hot new shit when really we already had electric cars and solar panels for half the cost and the other half pays for the “marketing” that convinces you to pay 2X actual cost. They would make you pre-order it too if they could.
- dmckeon 7y ago> And we’re actually going to have […] ‘installathons,’ ” Musk said, which will pit two teams against each other to see who can roof one of two similar-sized/designed roofs faster. Musk reiterated later that there’s “quite a bit of R&D just in the installation process itself.” Not a short seller, but that sounds a lot like: “We don’t yet know how to do this well, but in the meantime we are going to optimize for speed.” This may look good to investors, but homeowners might cringe. Did Musk learn nothing from the pre-Titan installs? Somebody get him a copy of _The Mythical Man-Month_. This quote alone took me from possible early-adopter to wanting to wait 3 to 5 years until they decide to optimize installation for correctness and lowered risk of ignition.
- ianai 7y agoHe prioritizes speed apparently at the cost of anything else. I wonder why he feels such urgency? I mean yeah he finally got a profit out of Tesla last quarter. But there’s really no tolerance for hiccups in a roof install.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y agoIsn't speed a very important factor when addressing climate change? I thought replacing ICE engines and developing more in renewable energy would be accepted.
- ianai 7y agoSpeed is of course great. But you still have to engineer and execute properly. I was hoping HN knew where he was getting his urgency from other than the obvious. Like is he short on money.
- OnlineGladiator 7y agoI don't want to turn this into a debate about Tesla's financials, but I think just about everybody can agree Tesla has always operated in a risky position - highly leveraged, relatively low on cash (in terms of months of runway), extremely risky bets (pre-orders on FSD which has yet to come to fruition). Love or hate Tesla, they are a financial engineering marvel. And it's easy to make an argument that the company needs more cash, but again I don't want to make this into a flame war.
- Rapzid 7y agoSuper scary if it's flashed wrong or damaged.. What if it starts leaking and/or needs repair. How much is THAT gonna cost and are the wait times shorter than for repairing a Tesla?!
- greggeter 7y agoWell, it ought to...
- ChuckMcM 7y agoI am glad to see they are making progress here. This roof looks like it has a much better chance of being acceptable to various home owner associations (HOAs) than putting panels up on a "regular" roof.
- mikelyons 7y agoReplaced my roof this year. Small roof where roofs last for about 1/2 their typical rating. $5000 for 20 year asphalt shingles. With Tesla I would add: $20,000 for panels and powerwall.
- lousken 7y agoI would never install solar panels on my roof, if it catches on fire, firefighters will let the whole house burn.
- woodandsteel 7y agoThis is very good news. It's going to lead to a great many new solar installations that otherwise would not have happened, including in new home construction. And if we are lucky there will be other companies that will develop similar products that are good enough to compete with Tesla.
- Corrado 7y agoOne of the things I've always wondered about Tesla's Solar Roof is how is it to walk on? Do you have to be extra careful because it's glass? Is it more slippery? I get up on my roof several times a year (inspections, etc.) and know how to move around on a traditional asphalt shingle roof. Will I slide off or damage the roof while putting up Christmas lights?