16 ms·

Making My Own Glasses

629 points by olieidel 7y ago

alfonsodev 7y ago
> Optician: “Now with this lens, do you see better or worse?” > O: “Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe. Maybe not? The letters look similar but different.” [edit] Reprahsing to make it clearer: will it be possible in the future to measure objectively?
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > isn't it an objective way to measure it No it's subjective - I think that's the main point of the article.
  - alfonsodev 7y ago
    I know, I though it might a very expensive but precise way to measure that with time or new tech could become afrodable.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      > I know, I though it might a very expensive but precise way to measure that with time or new tech could become afrodable. No it's imprecise - again that's a key point of the article. The author finds that there's a lot of variance in the measurements obtained.
      - alfonsodev 7y ago
        Maybe it's the way I worded it, but I'm not debating the point of the author, sometimes in HN there are people that know more, or have more recent information than the authors of what is posted here.
    - criddell 7y ago
      I don't see why the entire process couldn't be automated. A machine could ask me "which is better A or B or are they the same?" There are other parts of the exam that are more related to eye health, but I don't see why they vision prescription process and the eye exam have to be combined. How many people that don't wear glasses ever get their eyes examined?
      - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
        "Which is better?" is the subjectivity people are hoping can be eliminated, the patient's, not the examiner's. This is an interesting black-box problem, I suppose it's possible that with the examination of enough eyes a system could suggest corrections, but I am skeptical.
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  Since vision happens mostly in the brain, simply selecting a lens which focusing light at a certain point in your eye is not the only thing to optimize for. You also have to optimize for the processor behind the sensor which, at least until more advanced vision models are made, is going to be purely subjective.
  - SamBam 7y ago
    Is it possible for the lens to focus light perfectly, and the brain to process that as blurrier than if the light were focused imperfectly? I would imagine that, no matter how the brain were processing the image, the image being focused exactly on the retina is an objective truth, and that an exactly-focused image must be clearer to the brain than a blurry image.
    - petschge 7y ago
      That is true for the spherical part of the lens. When you start to look into the correction of astigmatism (done by the cylindrical component of the lens) it become a whole lot more complicated.
- cameronh90 7y ago
  Sort of. There's a device called an autorefractor which can get a pretty good estimate out of your refractive error. However traditional eyesight tests tend to provide better results. I believe wavefront guided LASIK uses some kind of automatic method of determining refractive error called an aberrometer. Some ophthalmologists have a device called an i-profiler that they use as part of their assessment which appears to be an aberrometer. Everything I've read on the matter seems to me to indicate that there is possibly some kind of hybrid automated autorefractor/aberrometer type technology that could be created to give fairly objective and accurate measurements of refractive error with no human operator, but given that legally an ophthalmologist would need to sign off the prescription anyway the upside is probably limited.
  - IronWolve 7y ago
    I was excited to get lasik when wavefront came out due to one eye having astigmatism. I came out with 20:15 in one eye, 20/20 in the other. Overcorrection is normally avoided, but I jumped when wavefront lasik came out. Totally worth it.
- FPGAhacker 7y ago
  As others have said, yes, with limited accuracy. A big issue is the focus of your eyes is never static. Imagine creating a lens system for a camera where you can't control for one element. That element is dynamic with a reasonable autofocus that suffers from time varying accuracy and range of performance. We need dynamic correction. Glasses with auto/adjustable focus.
- Sidnicious 7y ago
  Yes. Last year, I realized I needed glasses, went through two opticians and three pairs of lenses, still wasn't happy, and finally ended up seeking out an office that could measure for free-form lenses (measured objectively with more degrees of freedom in the prescription). This optician used Zeiss a i-Profiler to make i-Scription lenses (https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/us/for-eye-care-professionals/products/zeiss-instruments-and-systems/i-scription.html https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/us/for-eye-care-profession...) They've worked better for me than any of the subjectively-measured prescriptions.
- olieidel 7y ago
  fwiw, I talked to someone who'd done some research in that area. While using an autorefractor provides you with objective values, predicting the actual values people were most satisfied with was very difficult. Possibly because there's a lot of "post-processing" of visual signals in our brain and that may vary a lot individually. I totally agree that having an objective way to measure this would be awesome.
atoav 7y ago
This is clearly a case where the sole act of him sharpening his own perception of what glases do resulted in him getting better glases. I work freelance as a colorist and re-recording mixer – both are professions which are highly based on perception. And it is certainly true: if you try to really go into the details of something, be it color, sound or anything else, it already helps a lot if you sharpen your senses to these things. I always say: you don't pay me for beeing able to use some software, you pay me for having developed my senses over years in a way that others didn't.
- olieidel 7y ago
  Totally agree. It's a cool idea that going very deep in a certain field yields benefits which were unimaginable in the beginning (or to others).
emptybits 7y ago
Fascinating hacker story in an unexpected domain. Thank you! A side note about "getting your numbers"... The author remarks, "she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online". This will obviously vary by jurisdiction but what the author describes may be illegal in some places. e.g. where I live, there is a law since 2010 requiring opticians and optometrists "to give clients, free of charge, a copy of their prescription, sight-test assessment or contact-lens specifications — whether or not it is requested by the client — and also to give a copy, free of charge, to a third-party eyewear seller or other person if requested by the client"[1] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-changes-eyewear-regulations-1.904446 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-changes-...
- wonderwonder 7y ago
  This did strike me as strange. Imagine going to a doctor getting a blood test and being told your numbers are good or bad but the doctor refusing to give you the actual result. They are your results, you paid for them and are part of an overall need to understand your health.
  - LoSboccacc 7y ago
    > you paid for them most places that sell glasses do those for free tho. I agree they should be given out and they do in europe, or at least in the two states I lived, but being paid for is not the angle to come at it from
    - cptskippy 7y ago
      "Free" exams aren't free, the cost is included in the frames purchase. You can pay for an eye exam and walk out with a prescription, you just have to explain your intent.
      - mantoto 7y ago
        Not always. My place doesn't do it.
megous 7y ago
So, anyone read the manual for the measurment instruments used and investigated what is the specified error of measurement? Maybe variation can be attributed to that.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  Eye fatigue gives a much higher difference than the error margin of the instruments.
chooseaname 7y ago
> As a doctor I know some things about the human eye so I understand how to use those lenses. However, I have no clue about the magic ritual of the optician (“Do you see better with this lens?” - selects random lens and holds it in front of my eye). >Luckily, I didn’t have to. There's a specific reason why they do this and ask you to make a decision in an instant. It's called accommodation. Your eyes will quickly try and accommodate and find focus if they're allowed to stare too long. This could explain the reason he got such different results from the exams. He was trying too hard. Just follow directions. Edit: > One more thing. Do you remember the process in which an optician makes you wear a new pair of glasses and stares at you with this optician-look, takes the pair of glasses away from you again, goes to the back office and starts bending parts of it in a seemingly random manner, comes back, hands you the pair of glasses which now suddenly fit perfectly? > Yeah, I attempted to do that with my new pair of glasses and noticed that I suck at it. I would bend it to look similar like the glasses from the optician only to realize that the back of my ears were hurting after a few hours of wear. Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!?
- devicetray0 7y ago
  > Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!? I think that's a little harsh. I took it to mean he realized he had no idea how to properly bend it, and pointed out an optician is the expert here.
- ivl 7y ago
  > Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!? Doctors are pretty specialized today, and he has a list of publications on his site, right in front of you, so that may be an excessive reaction.
- hrktb 7y ago
  > There's a specific reason why they do this and ask you to make a decision in an instant. It's called accommodation. You are right. It can be an issue in the other direction though. People are checked after often sizeable waits looking at the same thing (their phone, the wall, outside) for a long time. When you then start the switching lens tests, there will be a set of lens optimal for your current situation, and a different set of lens that would fit better for a long day of doing whatever you are usually doing with the glasses on. Knowing how good a pair matches after accommodation is equally valuable, IMO.
djhworld 7y ago
I'm going for my regular eye test tomorrow, I'm similar to the author with toric contact lenses (for astigmatism) and glasses for all other times. I'm not looking forward to the "does this look better or worse?" dance and can totally relate to the author's frustration!
- olieidel 7y ago
  Good luck!
oldandcold 7y ago
Wonderful read. I've been wearing glasses for 40+ years...and I agree with the generally subjective nature of the exam. "better 1 or 2". "this one or that one"... etc. Is it just a bit less blurry? Or am I guessing because I want to get out of here? At my dox, they check my Rx with a machine, then the doc does the A/B testing. They know what the answer is...but they need me to validate. Then there is time... the doc has only so much time to do the A/B testing. A few hours of A/B would statistically improve the outcome. And really, fuzzy or sharp letters on a screen is not what I look at all day...show me a monitor or a book and ask me what I see. I would love to do my own testing with a box of lenses...
AdrianB1 7y ago
For more than 10 years I am going to the same optician for glasses. As a sport pilot, I need to have 2 pairs at all times (one is kept as reserve in the cockpit); changing one to another, with identical "everything", produces a serious discomfort that I cannot explain. I learned to live with the idea that eye sight is complicated. Measurements at different points in time can differ slightly: in the morning just after I wake up I get some values, after staring at this monitor for 12 hours I get slightly different results. I always make the glasses from the morning measurement, but luckily the values rarely differ from one year to another (I change the lenses every year on the pair I wear on the motorcycle, riding with the visor up I get the lenses scratched in about one year from the dust in the air).
- turk73 7y ago
  Slightly different pupillary distance I would bet.
- gvb 7y ago
  I suspect the discomfort when switching glasses is that the inter-ocular distance is different between the two glasses (one is likely right or "more right"). You have the right correction, but it is off-axis WRT your pupils with one pair. When I go to my $$$ optician, the technician marks my pupils on the blanks in the frame that I've selected using a sharpie (before the glasses are made) and adds the inter-ocular measurement to the glasses information. When I put on the resulting glasses, I don't have any eye strain symptoms and my vision is good (instantly). When I went to cheap storefront glasses places (I don't do that any more) and I put on the resulting glasses, I get a "stress" signal from my eyes and then they adjust to work with the suboptimal glasses but the eye strain is always there.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    My optician friend is doing the inter-ocular distance right, he showed me the process while he was cutting the lenses on a high-end computerized machine. But the only difference between my glasses are the frames, there are some differences in the frames that makes a difference in the final product. I guess it is the angle between the lenses, even a small difference can be creating the discomfort. It takes me a few hours to adjust.
edouard-harris 7y ago
I hope someone reads this and starts Stitch Fix for eyeglasses.
donjoe 7y ago
Everytime I read about glasses I have to think about the Luxottica-Monopoly which kind of controls most of the market and prices of glasses/lenses. https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-glasses-lenscrafters-luxottica-monopoly-20190305-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-glass...
- emptybits 7y ago
  Agreed and I wish this was exposed more, so people might spend their cash or insurance credits on alternatives that can be more innovative and cheaper. I supported Frameri through their crowdfunding and beyond for this reason. I bought several sets of interchangeable frames and lenses from them and am pretty satisfied. But then they closed up shop and left me hanging with a never-fulfilled final order. :-(
- wheelie_boy 7y ago
  Yeah, I was surprised that he bought his final pair of glasses online for such a high price. Maybe the frames were expensive? I've used zenni optical for many pairs of glasses, and they're much cheaper.
  - snuxoll 7y ago
    When you have a prescription that strong the lenses get expensive quick. Even from Coastal.com I end up paying $200+ for high-index photochromatic lenses, because my left eye is -4.75. The article mentions a +7 in one eye, we’re in the 1.67 index range (mine are 1.6) with a script like that. €208 is a deal.
    - wheelie_boy 7y ago
      I just checked with zenni optical, and with his prescription it did recommend the 1.67 lenses. The total was $59. Not to say that $200 isn't a great deal compared to Luxottica, and he did say that he was very particular about his frames, but $200 still seemed high.
- bredren 7y ago
gherkinnn 7y ago
> She seems to forget the fact that I’m a doctor > As a doctor I know some things about the human eye Something about these sentences identify our author here as German. And low and behold, it turns out he is.
turk73 7y ago
I wanted to be an Optometrist but went into software engineering instead. I think Optometry is fertile ground for disruption by technology. Similar to pharmacists, the only thing keeping so many employed is a cartel.
umvi 7y ago
> and she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online I hate this! Are they really allowed to do this? "What's my prescription?" "Not telling"
- css 7y ago
  They are most certainly not allowed to withhold it: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-eyeglass-rule https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/com...
  - pacaro 7y ago
    TFA is most likely set in Germany, where different rules apply
- lucb1e 7y ago
  Historically, at least in the Netherlands (and it seems also Germany), you get the eye test free as "service" because before or afterwards you'll then look for a frame that you like. Of course, under GDPR (or previously the DPD from 1995) you are totally entitled to learn what data they have about you, but going to get a free eye test and then ordering cheap stuff online is just a jerk thing to do. I read in this thread that elsewhere on the planet, they're not free, and then of course you get the values. Would be super weird to pay for a test and then not get the result. (Nobody likes vendor lock-in.) I've done eye tests before and not gotten glasses because it turned out not to be necessary, but it always felt really shitty. I always asked how much it was, as an offer to pay, but was never asked to pay anything. I'd be in favor of paying for what you use to avoid both guilt trapping and hard feelings.
tyingq 7y ago
This article found 13 out of 30 opticians were off by a significant amount (poor or very poor): https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/high-street-opticians-giving-shocking-eye-tests-and-incorrect-prescriptions-report-reveals_uk_59e5ccf5e4b02a215b32b068 https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/high-street-opticians...
- superkuh 7y ago
  I had great glasses for about 25 years. Then my eye doctor retired. Over the next couple years the first couple pairs I received from the same location's new doctors were bad enough to cause me to return them. The third has been marginally acceptable. It's a real shame when talent retires.
  - ddalex 7y ago
    I had someone recently quit my team for a way better opportunity that my company couldn't provide. More or less jokingly we showed up with chains on the last day to bind him to the desk :) we allowed him to part after a couple of beers though. Yes its super painful to lose talent.
coldtea 7y ago
>I have a few seconds to decide whether I see some letters better and this decision will decide which lenses I’ll have in my glasses for the next few years? Absurd! On the contrary, it seems totally logical. If the difference is so small that you can't assuredly decide between two options, either will do. >How can a trustworthy decision be made in this not-real-life scenario of staring at letters on a wall? I want to be able to decide while going about my daily routine: Staring at computer screens, looking out of the window, looking into space. My daily routine doesn’t include staring at the same five letters projected onto a white wall and reading them out loud. Yeah, so? Who told you you'll find anything more doing that, that you would looking at the projected letters? >I went through with it and the pair of glasses arrived around two weeks later. Putting them on for the first time, my vision was just as perfect as with the trial lenses. Awesome! This was hands-down the best pair of glasses I ever had. Better yet, it was the first pair of glasses with which I could see better than with contact lenses (as those don’t have a cylinder). For all the skepticism at others (eye professionals at that), did he checked his enthusiasm for placebo effect? Or the IKEA effect for that matter? The guy seems eccentric in a creative way, but unbearable...
- FPGAhacker 7y ago
  > On the contrary, it seems totally logical. If the difference is so small that you can't assuredly decide between two options, either will do. A slightly different way to interpret this would be to say that that particular axis of variation is at its limit, given the state of the other axes. There are several axes, and they aren't perfectly orthogonal. Zeroing in on one can alter the best correction achievable on the other. Not all opticians will go back and iterate other axes, but I think it's a good idea. Lock X, find Y, recheck X given Y, etc.
- olieidel 7y ago
  > For all the skepticism at others (eye professionals at that), did he checked his enthusiasm for placebo effect? Yes. I have two pairs of glasses here: The optician-made ones and my self-prescribed ones. I have controlled for the frame - both have the same one. I see much better with my self-prescribed ones. If you don't believe me, feel free to drop by and we'll do a blinded (heh) test. :)
nickjj 7y ago
As a life long glasses wearer I don't really agree there's a problem with the "better or worse" method. It's a pretty interesting implementation of bisection search and it's a very controlled environment. It's also a great example of how constraints (time) helps you arrive at a good answer without over thinking it. If you were out wandering the streets or looking at random things with no constraints you would be overwhelmed with choice and it would be very hard to draw a conclusion. You may decide what's right is based on looking at something, only to find out after all of that something else 4 days later looks way off because you didn't see that during your real world test. You end up being individually burdened with making the decision instead of letting science do its thing. The only issue I have is frames because it's very possible to get frames that are comfortable for the few minutes you try them on in the store but they end up being horrendously uncomfortable after a day or few days of usage (even after many adjustments). I don't know how to solve that problem though because in order to wear the frames for a long test period you would need to be able to see, which means your real lenses need to be placed inside.
kmm 7y ago
He probably saw the first result incorrectly, opticians almost exclusively use negative cylinders, it seems incredibly unlikely that he would both stumble upon a rare exception using positive cylinders, and that she'd coincidentally get his astigmatism way wrong as well. I share his, uhm, perfectionism regarding optical corrections, and it's led to quite some anxiety. I feel like eye exams here aren't done with a lot of care, and that they just aim for "good enough". I'm not sure what to do with the knowledge that you can buy such an optician kit and test yourself. It's either a great or an absolutely terrible idea.
- olieidel 7y ago
  Some good thoughts. Totally agree with all your points.
mschuster91 7y ago
> I have a few seconds to decide whether I see some letters better and this decision will decide which lenses I’ll have in my glasses for the next few years? Absurd! From personal experience: don't do these tests if you're tired, have headaches or are otherwise impaired. For example if your eyes simply want to shut and you're forcing them to open the musculature will affect your vision.
amingilani 7y ago
This is amazing, however, I have the opposite problem: how do I measure for contact lenses? I've never been able to get a good fit for my contacts although my glasses have always worked well enough. The weird thing is that when I go to get contact lenses, the retailer orders them according to my glasses prescription, but subtracts seemingly arbitrary values from it to arrive at the contact lenses' values. I live in Pakistan, btw.
- vanattab 7y ago
  Do you have a stigmatism? Contacts offten don't work well with people of stigmatism.
  - amingilani 7y ago
    I do have astigmatism, actually. However, looking at the prescription of the author in the article, it appears that he does too!
    - olieidel 7y ago
      Yes, I do. I had lenses with cylinders (for correcting it) in the past and didn't like them. They're larger and asymmetric - the lower side must be heavier so that they always align correctly on your eye. With not-so-bad astigmatism, you can get away with not correcting it in your contact lenses. That's what I currently do. It works okay and brings you to a good level of vision (1.0 here in Germany, probably 20/20 in the US).
      - amingilani 7y ago
        Ahhh, that won't work for me. I started off like that, but getting cylinders made a huge difference in my contacts. I've tried the bottom-heavy ones, as well as the ones with a "1" that's supposed to be positioned at the bottom manually. Neither has worked too well. The shifting position isn't a problem, I think the bottom-heavy ones adjust fine with a little bit of practice, but the experience is never that good.
newnewpdro 7y ago
Wish he included a link for the kit of test lenses he purchased
- olieidel 7y ago
  It's a pretty generic kit sold on ebay from various chinese resellers. It's not too hard to find if you search for "optician kit" or so, price is around 180€ in Germany :)
olieidel 7y ago
Whoa, this is unexpected. I'm the author. Thanks for reading and for all your comments! Will reply to as many as possible.
scoot 7y ago
Misleading title. He tested his own eyesight and ordered glasses online. He didn't make his own glasses. Still an interesting read, just not what I expected from the title and lead.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  Eh... he provided custom specifications to a manufacturer. Apple makes it's own SoCs for the iPhone, only Apple can't make semiconductors. They provide specifications to a manufacturer. Apple makes the iPhone, except it's Foxconn that manufacturers it. The APU in the Xbox One is made by Microsoft, but it's composed primarily of off the shelf designed CPU and GPU cores from AMD and manufactured by TSMC/GF/<insert foundary>.
  - emerongi 7y ago
    The whole blog post was about measuring eyesight, not about what it takes to actually make glasses. My natural expectation was that the author made his/her own lenses and fitted them into a frame. Or designed their own frame, ordered the parts and then assembled them into a frame. I was expecting a technical rundown about all the steps it took to do something like that. The blog post is still a fun read, but the title is definitely misleading.
  - jqadams 7y ago
    By this logic, I am “making” my own pizza every time I tell Dominos to make me a 20cm pizza with cheese and sauce. I am “making” an IKA sofa when I order it online, telling the manufacturer the model, the size (2 seat, 3, etc). No, what the OP did was check/confirm his numbers and then bought a pair of glasses from a website. Many people buy them from websites, typing in the numbers they received from their doctor. None of these people are “making” anything.
    - cptskippy 7y ago
      I don't disagree with you, and the line between ordering and making is fuzzy. Your examples of an Ikea Sofa and Pizza are great examples of either end of the spectrum. An Ikea sofa has finite configurations that could all be permuted into model numbers, the parts are interchangeable and swapped between models, and prefabricated. A pizza however is completely made to order on demand and if there's a mistake the components are nonrecoverable waste. With Apple's custom SoC, they're designing a custom circuit however that specification is sent to someone else to manufacture. At it's core, it's not unlike ordering a pizza of astronomically greater complexity. So what makes a custom pizza just an order and not a make? Is it the relative simplicity/complexity of the task? If I enlist a factory in China to manufacture custom mouse pads based on my exact specifications, did I make a mouse pad or just order it? Does it matter if the mouse pads are just press cut fabric backed neoprene in various colors and shapes? Glasses are somewhere between an Ikea Sofa and a Pizza in terms of modularity. The lenses and frames are off the shelf but once cut the lenses are spent if an error is made. Glasses however have much more exacting specifications than a pizza or a Sofa.
jefftk 7y ago
> Do you remember the process in which an optician makes you wear a new pair of glasses and stares at you with this optician-look, takes the pair of glasses away from you again, goes to the back office and starts bending parts of it in a seemingly random manner, comes back, hands you the pair of glasses which now suddenly fit perfectly? Yeah, I attempted to do that with my new pair of glasses and noticed that I suck at it. I would bend it to look similar like the glasses from the optician only to realize that the back of my ears were hurting after a few hours of wear. Then I would bend them differently only to have them repeatedly slip forward on my nose warranting me to push them up every few minutes. After two weeks of bending, it still fits less well than the other pair. So I guess there are some subtleties of making glasses which are not easily replaceable through an online store. I've done this with several pairs, and the main thing is you need to heat them to get the plastic into a temperature where it will hold a new bend. I've used a hair dryer for this, though you need to be careful not to over-heat them or the plastic will blister. You can also go into a glasses shop and ask if they can adjust them, though when I tried this they wouldn't take my money and just did it for free, which I felt bad about.
- jqadams 7y ago
  Unfortunately, lots of places will refuse to fit/bend your glasses unless you got them from their stores. It’s just easier and less of a hassle for them to have a blanket ban vs worrying about breaking the person’s glasses and being charged/sued for it.
  - astura 7y ago
    LensCrafters will fit/adjust any/all glasses for free without any questions. Bonus: there is usually one in most malls. I've brought probably 10 frames there multiple times over the last couple decades, only one of which I actually bought there.
logfromblammo 7y ago
I were assembling a home-optometry kit, I would use adjustable oil lenses and a laser pointer. The speckle pattern of the laser dot is affected by whether the observer is myopic or hyperopic. Adjust the oil glasses until, when moving your head, the laser speckle dots do not appear to move. If they move opposite to your head motion, make the lens diopter more negative, and if they move in the same direction, make the lens diopter less negative. After determining exact spherical diopter, then test for astigmatism by spinning a set of parallel black lines on a white field, and parallel white lines on a black field. Or just look at a printout of an astigmatism dial chart.
specialist 7y ago
Great read. Thanks. I've also received lenses that don't match the prescription. My ophthalmologist says that source of error is common. So now I have the doctor's office verify my lenses.
sova 7y ago
Very impressed my good man. Would it be possible to automate this process a bit and get some statistically sound measurements from doing it 100 times? Can we turn this into an online business? :D
redog 7y ago
Good story but I'm a touch disappointed as I came in expecting a story about making the lenses.
dh-g 7y ago
Title is a bit misleading and got my hopes of that this was about grinding down glass into perscription lenes. Interesting none the less.
devxpy 7y ago
A similar incident happened with me too. Visited an optician, immediately followed by a doctor the same day. The measurements varied by 1 whole digit!
retpirato 7y ago
I'm generally wary of anyone who says they're a perfectionist, because I usually find them to be absurdly picky about silly things for no real reason, but this guy has a point about not being able to tell if glasses are right for you based on staring at some letters.
Androider 7y ago
I wonder if the use of a lensmeter makes you fall into a local optimum while missing out on a potential global optimum? Let's say I go to a bad optician and get a pair of lenses that have something way off like the cylinder is the wrong way around, or toric lenses for astigmatism when you actually don't have it. Everything looks like crap but then you get used to it (the brain is amazing at adapting). Then a few years later you go get another pair, and they use the lensmeter reading as the baseline. I think I have astigmatism, or do I? It took me more than two months until I stopped getting headaches after getting my first glasses and I could see decently. Every glasses since then are based on that first reading. Maybe I've just become used to it, and there exists a significantly better lens that I could become used to as well.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  You can calculate a spherical-only prescription from an astigmatism prescription. Order cheapest-possible glasses using those lenses, and wear them for a while before visiting a new optometrist. Leave them behind before you go in, and say you lost your glasses in the ocean, or they got crushed under a truck tire, or something. If you end up with a prescription that has a cylindrical component, and it has the same axis and magnitude as your previous prescription, then you have an objectively-measured, independently-repeated astigmatism.
Uhuhreally 7y ago
expected to read an article about someone 3d-printing their own glasses, was disappointed
moneywoes 7y ago
Suddenly I feel very less confident in my prescription that I just received
77pt77 7y ago
> she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online (I’d never do that!). This is ridiculous. Why should I not be given the value measurements that have just been made? That's why I bought my own optician test lens set and now do the measurements myself. I can also test these measurements over a long period of time looking at a screen for example. I've had people stop short of saying I should be arrested and that I'm doing something illegal. The cost, one or two visits to the optometrist.
- whamlastxmas 7y ago
  Because the measurement was free and provided with the assumption they're recovering the cost of equipment and labor when you purchase glasses through them.
jakobegger 7y ago
If you want the absolute best possible correction, you also need to make sure the optical center of the lens is in the right spot. With my current frames it's a bit too low, so I need to lift my glasses a bit to make sure I see as sharp as possible, which is annoying. It's a small effect, but it is noticable.
diffuse_l 7y ago
I'm still not sure how the whole process of choosing lenses seems to work quite well, despite being so far removed from actual day to day usage. In the ~37 years I have glasses the process only failed twice. The last time I needed to order new glasses, after wearing the glasses for a day (I know from experience that it sometimes takes time to adjust to new glasses), I returned to the store and told them that the glasses weren't good enough. To make a long story short, after going back there at least three times, and after the optometrist said something along the lines of "maybe you only think you are not seeing well with those glasses", I had to start making a ruckus till they changed both lenses. Maybe the failure rate is low enough that it is not worth it to improve the process...
driverdan 7y ago
You can't wear contacts for flying or passing the exam? The best eye "hack" I've done is getting Lasik. I wore glasses and then contacts for about 20 years and got Lasik done 3 years ago. It's worth whatever it costs you.
- novok 7y ago
  There are some eyes that are somewhat risky to treat with lasik, such as having pupils that dilate to 8mm+
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    It's not worthwhile for nearsighted people beyond middle age. It also structurally weakens the eye so not a good thing depending on your occupation and hobbies.
- neop1x 7y ago
  I've read reports of worse vision in dark after Lasik. And what if my short sighness worsens over time (as it did so far). I don't think Lasik is the ultimate solution which works perfectly forever.
0x0aff374668 7y ago
Funny, I've been struggling with exactly this issue. Over the past few years my eyes have worsened to the point where doctors cannot find a contact scrip that works in both eyes: we have to compromise with one eye fixing far-away and the other fixing near. I had TWO optemtrists generate an Rx and they differed in all domains, with the astigmatic axis off by 90-degrees in both eyes! I've wanted to buy a lens kit and do it myself for years, but after reading how complex a process it is to find a compromise due to all the daily fluctuations, I'm ready to accept that my eyesight is just a mess and nothing can fix it for ALL scenarios.
littlecosmic 7y ago
I’m glad that a good result was had, but none of these results are that surprising if you have experience in ophthalmic optics. The initial prescription and the final one are only a little different when you consider the change of acuity they can deliver (from a physics perspective). For a script like that, the frame choice, lens design and vertical placement of the optical centres (if the frame is a little deep) could all have a similar effect on acuity. It is also very common for there to be differences like he found between an auto-refraction and a subjective refraction. It’s possible that they are too focused in on the prescription itself and there are issues around the lens positioning/design that are involved here as well.
phonebucket 7y ago
That was a great read, but one of the summary conclusions jarred with me a bit: > Want to optimize your medication? Read up on all relevant studies and guidelines. I am surprised to have seen this penned by a doctor. Relevant studies and guidelines are a minefield for amateurs.
bonestamp2 7y ago
I went for a Lasik consult recently and they said they have to dilate my eyes to get the most accurate reading since the muscles can compensate and give variable readings. It's true, my last two prescriptions differed from the reading they got with my eyes dilated. Maybe it was just an extra money grab but if it's true and I had known that before I would have asked them to dilate my eyes when I wanted to get glasses too.
m0zg 7y ago
And now consider that your _other_ doctors are also mostly just guessing, often poorly, at the expense of your health. This is why medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading.... The stats are likely to be even worse in less developed countries or ones where doctor is not as prestigious a profession.
DoctorOetker 7y ago
>I needed an “optician kit” consisting of: >Trial lenses: A large number of lenses with varying corrections >Trial frame: A pair of glasses without lenses into which you can insert the trial lenses >Turns out, you can order these kits online from very trustworthy Chinese resellers for around 190€. Seems like it would be nice to have these available for rent. I would rent that for 20 euros a week, and after 10 rent-outs it has payed itself back
- ddalex 7y ago
  Why not do it?
tabtab 7y ago
An ear-handle broke off of a pair of eyeglasses I had a few years ago, and nobody could repair it. I tried 4 shops, including a jewelry shop. Being that progressive-focus prescription lenses are expensive, I didn't want to buy a new set. (Progressive focus is similar to "bifocals".) Hopefully shops with 3D printers etc. will give consumers more repair options.
edisonjoao 7y ago
nice
yupyupyupyup 7y ago
I would pay attention to what eye doctors call overcorrecting.. of course you see better but your eyes become lazier and lazier
ggariepy 7y ago
I've had nothing but terrible luck getting progressive lenses for years. I'm in the -7 diopter range, so the correction has to be pretty strong. Usually the script is dead on for some part of the visual range but hardly anything else works clearly. The single vision lenses I have for computer use are right on point. I have a pretty significant astigmatism in my left (non-dominant) eye, and that one is always jacked up. I've been going to the same ophthalmologist for several years now and over that time he's made a few mistakes in the script; twice I've had to have the glasses remade because of errors on his part. He came highly recommended, but the recommendations you get tend to be aligned with whatever hospital system you get them from, rather than true recommendations based on actual craftsmanship. I'd be interested in figuring out how to find an ophthalmologist who uses the Zeiss i.Scription tool in combination with a subjective test. I probably need to start going first thing in the morning as well; since I have to have my eyes dilated I tend to go in the afternoons after I've been hacking code most of the day; it sounds like that could be hurting the quality of the prescriptions. If anyone in the Detroit Metro knows of a good ophthalmologist with the Zeiss machine, do send me a note.

629 points by olieidel 7y ago

> Optician: “Now with this lens, do you see better or worse?” > O: “Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe. Maybe not? The letters look similar but different.” [edit] Reprahsing to make it clearer: will it be possible in the future to measure objectively?

chrisseaton 7y ago
> isn't it an objective way to measure it No it's subjective - I think that's the main point of the article.
- alfonsodev 7y ago
  I know, I though it might a very expensive but precise way to measure that with time or new tech could become afrodable.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > I know, I though it might a very expensive but precise way to measure that with time or new tech could become afrodable. No it's imprecise - again that's a key point of the article. The author finds that there's a lot of variance in the measurements obtained.
    - alfonsodev 7y ago
      Maybe it's the way I worded it, but I'm not debating the point of the author, sometimes in HN there are people that know more, or have more recent information than the authors of what is posted here.
  - criddell 7y ago
    I don't see why the entire process couldn't be automated. A machine could ask me "which is better A or B or are they the same?" There are other parts of the exam that are more related to eye health, but I don't see why they vision prescription process and the eye exam have to be combined. How many people that don't wear glasses ever get their eyes examined?
    - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
      "Which is better?" is the subjectivity people are hoping can be eliminated, the patient's, not the examiner's. This is an interesting black-box problem, I suppose it's possible that with the examination of enough eyes a system could suggest corrections, but I am skeptical.
iamthepieman 7y ago
Since vision happens mostly in the brain, simply selecting a lens which focusing light at a certain point in your eye is not the only thing to optimize for. You also have to optimize for the processor behind the sensor which, at least until more advanced vision models are made, is going to be purely subjective.
- SamBam 7y ago
  Is it possible for the lens to focus light perfectly, and the brain to process that as blurrier than if the light were focused imperfectly? I would imagine that, no matter how the brain were processing the image, the image being focused exactly on the retina is an objective truth, and that an exactly-focused image must be clearer to the brain than a blurry image.
  - petschge 7y ago
    That is true for the spherical part of the lens. When you start to look into the correction of astigmatism (done by the cylindrical component of the lens) it become a whole lot more complicated.
cameronh90 7y ago
Sort of. There's a device called an autorefractor which can get a pretty good estimate out of your refractive error. However traditional eyesight tests tend to provide better results. I believe wavefront guided LASIK uses some kind of automatic method of determining refractive error called an aberrometer. Some ophthalmologists have a device called an i-profiler that they use as part of their assessment which appears to be an aberrometer. Everything I've read on the matter seems to me to indicate that there is possibly some kind of hybrid automated autorefractor/aberrometer type technology that could be created to give fairly objective and accurate measurements of refractive error with no human operator, but given that legally an ophthalmologist would need to sign off the prescription anyway the upside is probably limited.
- IronWolve 7y ago
  I was excited to get lasik when wavefront came out due to one eye having astigmatism. I came out with 20:15 in one eye, 20/20 in the other. Overcorrection is normally avoided, but I jumped when wavefront lasik came out. Totally worth it.
FPGAhacker 7y ago
As others have said, yes, with limited accuracy. A big issue is the focus of your eyes is never static. Imagine creating a lens system for a camera where you can't control for one element. That element is dynamic with a reasonable autofocus that suffers from time varying accuracy and range of performance. We need dynamic correction. Glasses with auto/adjustable focus.
Sidnicious 7y ago
Yes. Last year, I realized I needed glasses, went through two opticians and three pairs of lenses, still wasn't happy, and finally ended up seeking out an office that could measure for free-form lenses (measured objectively with more degrees of freedom in the prescription). This optician used Zeiss a i-Profiler to make i-Scription lenses (https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/us/for-eye-care-professionals/products/zeiss-instruments-and-systems/i-scription.html https://www.zeiss.com/vision-care/us/for-eye-care-profession...) They've worked better for me than any of the subjectively-measured prescriptions.
olieidel 7y ago
fwiw, I talked to someone who'd done some research in that area. While using an autorefractor provides you with objective values, predicting the actual values people were most satisfied with was very difficult. Possibly because there's a lot of "post-processing" of visual signals in our brain and that may vary a lot individually. I totally agree that having an objective way to measure this would be awesome.

atoav 7y ago

This is clearly a case where the sole act of him sharpening his own perception of what glases do resulted in him getting better glases. I work freelance as a colorist and re-recording mixer – both are professions which are highly based on perception. And it is certainly true: if you try to really go into the details of something, be it color, sound or anything else, it already helps a lot if you sharpen your senses to these things. I always say: you don't pay me for beeing able to use some software, you pay me for having developed my senses over years in a way that others didn't.

olieidel 7y ago
Totally agree. It's a cool idea that going very deep in a certain field yields benefits which were unimaginable in the beginning (or to others).

emptybits 7y ago

Fascinating hacker story in an unexpected domain. Thank you! A side note about "getting your numbers"... The author remarks, "she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online". This will obviously vary by jurisdiction but what the author describes may be illegal in some places. e.g. where I live, there is a law since 2010 requiring opticians and optometrists "to give clients, free of charge, a copy of their prescription, sight-test assessment or contact-lens specifications — whether or not it is requested by the client — and also to give a copy, free of charge, to a third-party eyewear seller or other person if requested by the client"[1] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-changes-eyewear-regulations-1.904446 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-changes-...

wonderwonder 7y ago
This did strike me as strange. Imagine going to a doctor getting a blood test and being told your numbers are good or bad but the doctor refusing to give you the actual result. They are your results, you paid for them and are part of an overall need to understand your health.
- LoSboccacc 7y ago
  > you paid for them most places that sell glasses do those for free tho. I agree they should be given out and they do in europe, or at least in the two states I lived, but being paid for is not the angle to come at it from
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    "Free" exams aren't free, the cost is included in the frames purchase. You can pay for an eye exam and walk out with a prescription, you just have to explain your intent.
    - mantoto 7y ago
      Not always. My place doesn't do it.

megous 7y ago

So, anyone read the manual for the measurment instruments used and investigated what is the specified error of measurement? Maybe variation can be attributed to that.

AdrianB1 7y ago
Eye fatigue gives a much higher difference than the error margin of the instruments.

chooseaname 7y ago

> As a doctor I know some things about the human eye so I understand how to use those lenses. However, I have no clue about the magic ritual of the optician (“Do you see better with this lens?” - selects random lens and holds it in front of my eye). >Luckily, I didn’t have to. There's a specific reason why they do this and ask you to make a decision in an instant. It's called accommodation. Your eyes will quickly try and accommodate and find focus if they're allowed to stare too long. This could explain the reason he got such different results from the exams. He was trying too hard. Just follow directions. Edit: > One more thing. Do you remember the process in which an optician makes you wear a new pair of glasses and stares at you with this optician-look, takes the pair of glasses away from you again, goes to the back office and starts bending parts of it in a seemingly random manner, comes back, hands you the pair of glasses which now suddenly fit perfectly? > Yeah, I attempted to do that with my new pair of glasses and noticed that I suck at it. I would bend it to look similar like the glasses from the optician only to realize that the back of my ears were hurting after a few hours of wear. Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!?

devicetray0 7y ago
> Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!? I think that's a little harsh. I took it to mean he realized he had no idea how to properly bend it, and pointed out an optician is the expert here.
ivl 7y ago
> Is he really a Doctor??? He doesn't know there's a Mastoid bone there that the "bending" (aka: Adjusting) the optician is doing is to AVOID putting pressure on that bone!? Doctors are pretty specialized today, and he has a list of publications on his site, right in front of you, so that may be an excessive reaction.
hrktb 7y ago
> There's a specific reason why they do this and ask you to make a decision in an instant. It's called accommodation. You are right. It can be an issue in the other direction though. People are checked after often sizeable waits looking at the same thing (their phone, the wall, outside) for a long time. When you then start the switching lens tests, there will be a set of lens optimal for your current situation, and a different set of lens that would fit better for a long day of doing whatever you are usually doing with the glasses on. Knowing how good a pair matches after accommodation is equally valuable, IMO.

djhworld 7y ago

I'm going for my regular eye test tomorrow, I'm similar to the author with toric contact lenses (for astigmatism) and glasses for all other times. I'm not looking forward to the "does this look better or worse?" dance and can totally relate to the author's frustration!

olieidel 7y ago
Good luck!

oldandcold 7y ago

Wonderful read. I've been wearing glasses for 40+ years...and I agree with the generally subjective nature of the exam. "better 1 or 2". "this one or that one"... etc. Is it just a bit less blurry? Or am I guessing because I want to get out of here? At my dox, they check my Rx with a machine, then the doc does the A/B testing. They know what the answer is...but they need me to validate. Then there is time... the doc has only so much time to do the A/B testing. A few hours of A/B would statistically improve the outcome. And really, fuzzy or sharp letters on a screen is not what I look at all day...show me a monitor or a book and ask me what I see. I would love to do my own testing with a box of lenses...

AdrianB1 7y ago

For more than 10 years I am going to the same optician for glasses. As a sport pilot, I need to have 2 pairs at all times (one is kept as reserve in the cockpit); changing one to another, with identical "everything", produces a serious discomfort that I cannot explain. I learned to live with the idea that eye sight is complicated. Measurements at different points in time can differ slightly: in the morning just after I wake up I get some values, after staring at this monitor for 12 hours I get slightly different results. I always make the glasses from the morning measurement, but luckily the values rarely differ from one year to another (I change the lenses every year on the pair I wear on the motorcycle, riding with the visor up I get the lenses scratched in about one year from the dust in the air).

turk73 7y ago
Slightly different pupillary distance I would bet.
gvb 7y ago
I suspect the discomfort when switching glasses is that the inter-ocular distance is different between the two glasses (one is likely right or "more right"). You have the right correction, but it is off-axis WRT your pupils with one pair. When I go to my $$$ optician, the technician marks my pupils on the blanks in the frame that I've selected using a sharpie (before the glasses are made) and adds the inter-ocular measurement to the glasses information. When I put on the resulting glasses, I don't have any eye strain symptoms and my vision is good (instantly). When I went to cheap storefront glasses places (I don't do that any more) and I put on the resulting glasses, I get a "stress" signal from my eyes and then they adjust to work with the suboptimal glasses but the eye strain is always there.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  My optician friend is doing the inter-ocular distance right, he showed me the process while he was cutting the lenses on a high-end computerized machine. But the only difference between my glasses are the frames, there are some differences in the frames that makes a difference in the final product. I guess it is the angle between the lenses, even a small difference can be creating the discomfort. It takes me a few hours to adjust.

edouard-harris 7y ago

I hope someone reads this and starts Stitch Fix for eyeglasses.

donjoe 7y ago

Everytime I read about glasses I have to think about the Luxottica-Monopoly which kind of controls most of the market and prices of glasses/lenses. https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-glasses-lenscrafters-luxottica-monopoly-20190305-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-glass...

emptybits 7y ago
Agreed and I wish this was exposed more, so people might spend their cash or insurance credits on alternatives that can be more innovative and cheaper. I supported Frameri through their crowdfunding and beyond for this reason. I bought several sets of interchangeable frames and lenses from them and am pretty satisfied. But then they closed up shop and left me hanging with a never-fulfilled final order. :-(
wheelie_boy 7y ago
Yeah, I was surprised that he bought his final pair of glasses online for such a high price. Maybe the frames were expensive? I've used zenni optical for many pairs of glasses, and they're much cheaper.
- snuxoll 7y ago
  When you have a prescription that strong the lenses get expensive quick. Even from Coastal.com I end up paying $200+ for high-index photochromatic lenses, because my left eye is -4.75. The article mentions a +7 in one eye, we’re in the 1.67 index range (mine are 1.6) with a script like that. €208 is a deal.
  - wheelie_boy 7y ago
    I just checked with zenni optical, and with his prescription it did recommend the 1.67 lenses. The total was $59. Not to say that $200 isn't a great deal compared to Luxottica, and he did say that he was very particular about his frames, but $200 still seemed high.
bredren 7y ago

gherkinnn 7y ago

> She seems to forget the fact that I’m a doctor > As a doctor I know some things about the human eye Something about these sentences identify our author here as German. And low and behold, it turns out he is.

turk73 7y ago

I wanted to be an Optometrist but went into software engineering instead. I think Optometry is fertile ground for disruption by technology. Similar to pharmacists, the only thing keeping so many employed is a cartel.

umvi 7y ago

> and she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online I hate this! Are they really allowed to do this? "What's my prescription?" "Not telling"

css 7y ago
They are most certainly not allowed to withhold it: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-eyeglass-rule https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/com...
- pacaro 7y ago
  TFA is most likely set in Germany, where different rules apply
lucb1e 7y ago
Historically, at least in the Netherlands (and it seems also Germany), you get the eye test free as "service" because before or afterwards you'll then look for a frame that you like. Of course, under GDPR (or previously the DPD from 1995) you are totally entitled to learn what data they have about you, but going to get a free eye test and then ordering cheap stuff online is just a jerk thing to do. I read in this thread that elsewhere on the planet, they're not free, and then of course you get the values. Would be super weird to pay for a test and then not get the result. (Nobody likes vendor lock-in.) I've done eye tests before and not gotten glasses because it turned out not to be necessary, but it always felt really shitty. I always asked how much it was, as an offer to pay, but was never asked to pay anything. I'd be in favor of paying for what you use to avoid both guilt trapping and hard feelings.

tyingq 7y ago

This article found 13 out of 30 opticians were off by a significant amount (poor or very poor): https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/high-street-opticians-giving-shocking-eye-tests-and-incorrect-prescriptions-report-reveals_uk_59e5ccf5e4b02a215b32b068 https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/high-street-opticians...

superkuh 7y ago
I had great glasses for about 25 years. Then my eye doctor retired. Over the next couple years the first couple pairs I received from the same location's new doctors were bad enough to cause me to return them. The third has been marginally acceptable. It's a real shame when talent retires.
- ddalex 7y ago
  I had someone recently quit my team for a way better opportunity that my company couldn't provide. More or less jokingly we showed up with chains on the last day to bind him to the desk :) we allowed him to part after a couple of beers though. Yes its super painful to lose talent.

coldtea 7y ago

>I have a few seconds to decide whether I see some letters better and this decision will decide which lenses I’ll have in my glasses for the next few years? Absurd! On the contrary, it seems totally logical. If the difference is so small that you can't assuredly decide between two options, either will do. >How can a trustworthy decision be made in this not-real-life scenario of staring at letters on a wall? I want to be able to decide while going about my daily routine: Staring at computer screens, looking out of the window, looking into space. My daily routine doesn’t include staring at the same five letters projected onto a white wall and reading them out loud. Yeah, so? Who told you you'll find anything more doing that, that you would looking at the projected letters? >I went through with it and the pair of glasses arrived around two weeks later. Putting them on for the first time, my vision was just as perfect as with the trial lenses. Awesome! This was hands-down the best pair of glasses I ever had. Better yet, it was the first pair of glasses with which I could see better than with contact lenses (as those don’t have a cylinder). For all the skepticism at others (eye professionals at that), did he checked his enthusiasm for placebo effect? Or the IKEA effect for that matter? The guy seems eccentric in a creative way, but unbearable...

FPGAhacker 7y ago
> On the contrary, it seems totally logical. If the difference is so small that you can't assuredly decide between two options, either will do. A slightly different way to interpret this would be to say that that particular axis of variation is at its limit, given the state of the other axes. There are several axes, and they aren't perfectly orthogonal. Zeroing in on one can alter the best correction achievable on the other. Not all opticians will go back and iterate other axes, but I think it's a good idea. Lock X, find Y, recheck X given Y, etc.
olieidel 7y ago
> For all the skepticism at others (eye professionals at that), did he checked his enthusiasm for placebo effect? Yes. I have two pairs of glasses here: The optician-made ones and my self-prescribed ones. I have controlled for the frame - both have the same one. I see much better with my self-prescribed ones. If you don't believe me, feel free to drop by and we'll do a blinded (heh) test. :)

nickjj 7y ago

As a life long glasses wearer I don't really agree there's a problem with the "better or worse" method. It's a pretty interesting implementation of bisection search and it's a very controlled environment. It's also a great example of how constraints (time) helps you arrive at a good answer without over thinking it. If you were out wandering the streets or looking at random things with no constraints you would be overwhelmed with choice and it would be very hard to draw a conclusion. You may decide what's right is based on looking at something, only to find out after all of that something else 4 days later looks way off because you didn't see that during your real world test. You end up being individually burdened with making the decision instead of letting science do its thing. The only issue I have is frames because it's very possible to get frames that are comfortable for the few minutes you try them on in the store but they end up being horrendously uncomfortable after a day or few days of usage (even after many adjustments). I don't know how to solve that problem though because in order to wear the frames for a long test period you would need to be able to see, which means your real lenses need to be placed inside.

kmm 7y ago

He probably saw the first result incorrectly, opticians almost exclusively use negative cylinders, it seems incredibly unlikely that he would both stumble upon a rare exception using positive cylinders, and that she'd coincidentally get his astigmatism way wrong as well. I share his, uhm, perfectionism regarding optical corrections, and it's led to quite some anxiety. I feel like eye exams here aren't done with a lot of care, and that they just aim for "good enough". I'm not sure what to do with the knowledge that you can buy such an optician kit and test yourself. It's either a great or an absolutely terrible idea.

olieidel 7y ago
Some good thoughts. Totally agree with all your points.

mschuster91 7y ago

> I have a few seconds to decide whether I see some letters better and this decision will decide which lenses I’ll have in my glasses for the next few years? Absurd! From personal experience: don't do these tests if you're tired, have headaches or are otherwise impaired. For example if your eyes simply want to shut and you're forcing them to open the musculature will affect your vision.

amingilani 7y ago

This is amazing, however, I have the opposite problem: how do I measure for contact lenses? I've never been able to get a good fit for my contacts although my glasses have always worked well enough. The weird thing is that when I go to get contact lenses, the retailer orders them according to my glasses prescription, but subtracts seemingly arbitrary values from it to arrive at the contact lenses' values. I live in Pakistan, btw.

vanattab 7y ago
Do you have a stigmatism? Contacts offten don't work well with people of stigmatism.
- amingilani 7y ago
  I do have astigmatism, actually. However, looking at the prescription of the author in the article, it appears that he does too!
  - olieidel 7y ago
    Yes, I do. I had lenses with cylinders (for correcting it) in the past and didn't like them. They're larger and asymmetric - the lower side must be heavier so that they always align correctly on your eye. With not-so-bad astigmatism, you can get away with not correcting it in your contact lenses. That's what I currently do. It works okay and brings you to a good level of vision (1.0 here in Germany, probably 20/20 in the US).
    - amingilani 7y ago
      Ahhh, that won't work for me. I started off like that, but getting cylinders made a huge difference in my contacts. I've tried the bottom-heavy ones, as well as the ones with a "1" that's supposed to be positioned at the bottom manually. Neither has worked too well. The shifting position isn't a problem, I think the bottom-heavy ones adjust fine with a little bit of practice, but the experience is never that good.

newnewpdro 7y ago

Wish he included a link for the kit of test lenses he purchased

olieidel 7y ago
It's a pretty generic kit sold on ebay from various chinese resellers. It's not too hard to find if you search for "optician kit" or so, price is around 180€ in Germany :)

olieidel 7y ago

Whoa, this is unexpected. I'm the author. Thanks for reading and for all your comments! Will reply to as many as possible.

scoot 7y ago

Misleading title. He tested his own eyesight and ordered glasses online. He didn't make his own glasses. Still an interesting read, just not what I expected from the title and lead.

cptskippy 7y ago
Eh... he provided custom specifications to a manufacturer. Apple makes it's own SoCs for the iPhone, only Apple can't make semiconductors. They provide specifications to a manufacturer. Apple makes the iPhone, except it's Foxconn that manufacturers it. The APU in the Xbox One is made by Microsoft, but it's composed primarily of off the shelf designed CPU and GPU cores from AMD and manufactured by TSMC/GF/<insert foundary>.
- emerongi 7y ago
  The whole blog post was about measuring eyesight, not about what it takes to actually make glasses. My natural expectation was that the author made his/her own lenses and fitted them into a frame. Or designed their own frame, ordered the parts and then assembled them into a frame. I was expecting a technical rundown about all the steps it took to do something like that. The blog post is still a fun read, but the title is definitely misleading.
- jqadams 7y ago
  By this logic, I am “making” my own pizza every time I tell Dominos to make me a 20cm pizza with cheese and sauce. I am “making” an IKA sofa when I order it online, telling the manufacturer the model, the size (2 seat, 3, etc). No, what the OP did was check/confirm his numbers and then bought a pair of glasses from a website. Many people buy them from websites, typing in the numbers they received from their doctor. None of these people are “making” anything.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    I don't disagree with you, and the line between ordering and making is fuzzy. Your examples of an Ikea Sofa and Pizza are great examples of either end of the spectrum. An Ikea sofa has finite configurations that could all be permuted into model numbers, the parts are interchangeable and swapped between models, and prefabricated. A pizza however is completely made to order on demand and if there's a mistake the components are nonrecoverable waste. With Apple's custom SoC, they're designing a custom circuit however that specification is sent to someone else to manufacture. At it's core, it's not unlike ordering a pizza of astronomically greater complexity. So what makes a custom pizza just an order and not a make? Is it the relative simplicity/complexity of the task? If I enlist a factory in China to manufacture custom mouse pads based on my exact specifications, did I make a mouse pad or just order it? Does it matter if the mouse pads are just press cut fabric backed neoprene in various colors and shapes? Glasses are somewhere between an Ikea Sofa and a Pizza in terms of modularity. The lenses and frames are off the shelf but once cut the lenses are spent if an error is made. Glasses however have much more exacting specifications than a pizza or a Sofa.

jefftk 7y ago

> Do you remember the process in which an optician makes you wear a new pair of glasses and stares at you with this optician-look, takes the pair of glasses away from you again, goes to the back office and starts bending parts of it in a seemingly random manner, comes back, hands you the pair of glasses which now suddenly fit perfectly? Yeah, I attempted to do that with my new pair of glasses and noticed that I suck at it. I would bend it to look similar like the glasses from the optician only to realize that the back of my ears were hurting after a few hours of wear. Then I would bend them differently only to have them repeatedly slip forward on my nose warranting me to push them up every few minutes. After two weeks of bending, it still fits less well than the other pair. So I guess there are some subtleties of making glasses which are not easily replaceable through an online store. I've done this with several pairs, and the main thing is you need to heat them to get the plastic into a temperature where it will hold a new bend. I've used a hair dryer for this, though you need to be careful not to over-heat them or the plastic will blister. You can also go into a glasses shop and ask if they can adjust them, though when I tried this they wouldn't take my money and just did it for free, which I felt bad about.

jqadams 7y ago
Unfortunately, lots of places will refuse to fit/bend your glasses unless you got them from their stores. It’s just easier and less of a hassle for them to have a blanket ban vs worrying about breaking the person’s glasses and being charged/sued for it.
- astura 7y ago
  LensCrafters will fit/adjust any/all glasses for free without any questions. Bonus: there is usually one in most malls. I've brought probably 10 frames there multiple times over the last couple decades, only one of which I actually bought there.

logfromblammo 7y ago

I were assembling a home-optometry kit, I would use adjustable oil lenses and a laser pointer. The speckle pattern of the laser dot is affected by whether the observer is myopic or hyperopic. Adjust the oil glasses until, when moving your head, the laser speckle dots do not appear to move. If they move opposite to your head motion, make the lens diopter more negative, and if they move in the same direction, make the lens diopter less negative. After determining exact spherical diopter, then test for astigmatism by spinning a set of parallel black lines on a white field, and parallel white lines on a black field. Or just look at a printout of an astigmatism dial chart.

specialist 7y ago

Great read. Thanks. I've also received lenses that don't match the prescription. My ophthalmologist says that source of error is common. So now I have the doctor's office verify my lenses.

sova 7y ago

Very impressed my good man. Would it be possible to automate this process a bit and get some statistically sound measurements from doing it 100 times? Can we turn this into an online business? :D

redog 7y ago

Good story but I'm a touch disappointed as I came in expecting a story about making the lenses.

dh-g 7y ago

Title is a bit misleading and got my hopes of that this was about grinding down glass into perscription lenes. Interesting none the less.

devxpy 7y ago

A similar incident happened with me too. Visited an optician, immediately followed by a doctor the same day. The measurements varied by 1 whole digit!

retpirato 7y ago

I'm generally wary of anyone who says they're a perfectionist, because I usually find them to be absurdly picky about silly things for no real reason, but this guy has a point about not being able to tell if glasses are right for you based on staring at some letters.

Androider 7y ago

I wonder if the use of a lensmeter makes you fall into a local optimum while missing out on a potential global optimum? Let's say I go to a bad optician and get a pair of lenses that have something way off like the cylinder is the wrong way around, or toric lenses for astigmatism when you actually don't have it. Everything looks like crap but then you get used to it (the brain is amazing at adapting). Then a few years later you go get another pair, and they use the lensmeter reading as the baseline. I think I have astigmatism, or do I? It took me more than two months until I stopped getting headaches after getting my first glasses and I could see decently. Every glasses since then are based on that first reading. Maybe I've just become used to it, and there exists a significantly better lens that I could become used to as well.

logfromblammo 7y ago
You can calculate a spherical-only prescription from an astigmatism prescription. Order cheapest-possible glasses using those lenses, and wear them for a while before visiting a new optometrist. Leave them behind before you go in, and say you lost your glasses in the ocean, or they got crushed under a truck tire, or something. If you end up with a prescription that has a cylindrical component, and it has the same axis and magnitude as your previous prescription, then you have an objectively-measured, independently-repeated astigmatism.

Uhuhreally 7y ago

expected to read an article about someone 3d-printing their own glasses, was disappointed

moneywoes 7y ago

Suddenly I feel very less confident in my prescription that I just received

77pt77 7y ago

> she’s not happy to share the measurements with me as she fears I’ll run off and get my glasses made online (I’d never do that!). This is ridiculous. Why should I not be given the value measurements that have just been made? That's why I bought my own optician test lens set and now do the measurements myself. I can also test these measurements over a long period of time looking at a screen for example. I've had people stop short of saying I should be arrested and that I'm doing something illegal. The cost, one or two visits to the optometrist.

whamlastxmas 7y ago
Because the measurement was free and provided with the assumption they're recovering the cost of equipment and labor when you purchase glasses through them.

jakobegger 7y ago

If you want the absolute best possible correction, you also need to make sure the optical center of the lens is in the right spot. With my current frames it's a bit too low, so I need to lift my glasses a bit to make sure I see as sharp as possible, which is annoying. It's a small effect, but it is noticable.

diffuse_l 7y ago

I'm still not sure how the whole process of choosing lenses seems to work quite well, despite being so far removed from actual day to day usage. In the ~37 years I have glasses the process only failed twice. The last time I needed to order new glasses, after wearing the glasses for a day (I know from experience that it sometimes takes time to adjust to new glasses), I returned to the store and told them that the glasses weren't good enough. To make a long story short, after going back there at least three times, and after the optometrist said something along the lines of "maybe you only think you are not seeing well with those glasses", I had to start making a ruckus till they changed both lenses. Maybe the failure rate is low enough that it is not worth it to improve the process...

driverdan 7y ago

You can't wear contacts for flying or passing the exam? The best eye "hack" I've done is getting Lasik. I wore glasses and then contacts for about 20 years and got Lasik done 3 years ago. It's worth whatever it costs you.

novok 7y ago
There are some eyes that are somewhat risky to treat with lasik, such as having pupils that dilate to 8mm+
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  It's not worthwhile for nearsighted people beyond middle age. It also structurally weakens the eye so not a good thing depending on your occupation and hobbies.
neop1x 7y ago
I've read reports of worse vision in dark after Lasik. And what if my short sighness worsens over time (as it did so far). I don't think Lasik is the ultimate solution which works perfectly forever.

0x0aff374668 7y ago

Funny, I've been struggling with exactly this issue. Over the past few years my eyes have worsened to the point where doctors cannot find a contact scrip that works in both eyes: we have to compromise with one eye fixing far-away and the other fixing near. I had TWO optemtrists generate an Rx and they differed in all domains, with the astigmatic axis off by 90-degrees in both eyes! I've wanted to buy a lens kit and do it myself for years, but after reading how complex a process it is to find a compromise due to all the daily fluctuations, I'm ready to accept that my eyesight is just a mess and nothing can fix it for ALL scenarios.

littlecosmic 7y ago

I’m glad that a good result was had, but none of these results are that surprising if you have experience in ophthalmic optics. The initial prescription and the final one are only a little different when you consider the change of acuity they can deliver (from a physics perspective). For a script like that, the frame choice, lens design and vertical placement of the optical centres (if the frame is a little deep) could all have a similar effect on acuity. It is also very common for there to be differences like he found between an auto-refraction and a subjective refraction. It’s possible that they are too focused in on the prescription itself and there are issues around the lens positioning/design that are involved here as well.

phonebucket 7y ago

That was a great read, but one of the summary conclusions jarred with me a bit: > Want to optimize your medication? Read up on all relevant studies and guidelines. I am surprised to have seen this penned by a doctor. Relevant studies and guidelines are a minefield for amateurs.

bonestamp2 7y ago

I went for a Lasik consult recently and they said they have to dilate my eyes to get the most accurate reading since the muscles can compensate and give variable readings. It's true, my last two prescriptions differed from the reading they got with my eyes dilated. Maybe it was just an extra money grab but if it's true and I had known that before I would have asked them to dilate my eyes when I wanted to get glasses too.

m0zg 7y ago

And now consider that your _other_ doctors are also mostly just guessing, often poorly, at the expense of your health. This is why medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading.... The stats are likely to be even worse in less developed countries or ones where doctor is not as prestigious a profession.

DoctorOetker 7y ago

>I needed an “optician kit” consisting of: >Trial lenses: A large number of lenses with varying corrections >Trial frame: A pair of glasses without lenses into which you can insert the trial lenses >Turns out, you can order these kits online from very trustworthy Chinese resellers for around 190€. Seems like it would be nice to have these available for rent. I would rent that for 20 euros a week, and after 10 rent-outs it has payed itself back

ddalex 7y ago
Why not do it?

tabtab 7y ago

An ear-handle broke off of a pair of eyeglasses I had a few years ago, and nobody could repair it. I tried 4 shops, including a jewelry shop. Being that progressive-focus prescription lenses are expensive, I didn't want to buy a new set. (Progressive focus is similar to "bifocals".) Hopefully shops with 3D printers etc. will give consumers more repair options.

edisonjoao 7y ago

nice

yupyupyupyup 7y ago

I would pay attention to what eye doctors call overcorrecting.. of course you see better but your eyes become lazier and lazier

ggariepy 7y ago

I've had nothing but terrible luck getting progressive lenses for years. I'm in the -7 diopter range, so the correction has to be pretty strong. Usually the script is dead on for some part of the visual range but hardly anything else works clearly. The single vision lenses I have for computer use are right on point. I have a pretty significant astigmatism in my left (non-dominant) eye, and that one is always jacked up. I've been going to the same ophthalmologist for several years now and over that time he's made a few mistakes in the script; twice I've had to have the glasses remade because of errors on his part. He came highly recommended, but the recommendations you get tend to be aligned with whatever hospital system you get them from, rather than true recommendations based on actual craftsmanship. I'd be interested in figuring out how to find an ophthalmologist who uses the Zeiss i.Scription tool in combination with a subjective test. I probably need to start going first thing in the morning as well; since I have to have my eyes dilated I tend to go in the afternoons after I've been hacking code most of the day; it sounds like that could be hurting the quality of the prescriptions. If anyone in the Detroit Metro knows of a good ophthalmologist with the Zeiss machine, do send me a note.