15 ms·

Richard Stallman spoke at Microsoft Research this week

297 points by Khelouiati 7y ago

ptah 7y ago
hmmm, maybe m$ has changed? i'll wait another 10 years or so to see if embrace and extend before i can answer that conclusively :)
- mrlala 7y ago
  >m$ I think you are lost, this isn't slashdot from 15 years ago
- ksangeelee 7y ago
  Whether or not Microsoft has changed, I don't think this talk is has much bearing on that question. I believe that Microsoft's foray into free and open-source software is simply a response to the increasing irrelevance of their operating system to many developers who no longer have any specific need for anything Microsoft has to offer.
baybal2 7y ago
What he was doing there?
- ableal 7y ago
  Giving a talk at MS Research, it says in French in the piece. Looks like the standard Free Software presentation. The article says RMS requested no video taken using Javascript.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    For a moment, I imagined RMS coding up something in Javascript to display the words "No video please".
- w8rbt 7y ago
  Telling them to use GNU/Linux.
  - de_watcher 7y ago
    They already do. Just need to ditch everything except WSL - and we've got an acceptable MS OS.
    - huhtenberg 7y ago
      No, no that. Use "GNU/Linux", the term, vs just "Linux" :)
    - toyg 7y ago
      NT is not a bad OS, it makes some different tradeoffs than traditional POSIX systems and in some cases it’s objectively superior. It’s just the ecosystem on top that is a pile of flaming trash.
      - ChrisSD 7y ago
        It doesn't help that the Win32 layer on top of the NT kernel is a mess.
      - dcolkitt 7y ago
        > it makes some different tradeoffs than traditional POSIX systems and in some cases it’s objectively superior. I'm curious if you (or anyone else) have examples here. I haven't touched a Windows system in nearly 20 years, so I'm genuinely curious.
        toyg 7y ago
        Just the other day I ended up on this: https://speakerdeck.com/trent/pyparallel-how-we-removed-the-gil-and-exploited-all-cores https://speakerdeck.com/trent/pyparallel-how-we-removed-the-... There is also that whole thing about kqueue/epoll vs Overlapped I/O which I think is pretty cool. The more I read about Windows, the more I find the cool stuff is underneath, buried under a mountain of developer-hostile commercial choices, a philosophical rejection of the command-line that dates to the '90s, bad tacked-on security, sprawling and messy APIs, and a forever-incomplete UI wavering between garish and spartan. Once you get past all that (and all the terrible software built on top of it), NT is actually a very interesting system to play with.
vadasambar 7y ago
The link is in French.
jaboutboul 7y ago
Monumental moment in both free software and Microsoft’s history. A decade ago he was probably the most persona non grata. Look at how far we’ve come. To all the people who were bashing them in the comments a few days ago about the OIN patent grant, you guys still bitter? Cause it looks like RMS isn’t.
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  Contrary to what you seem imply, this is not some sort of vindication for Microsoft. Anyone can invite rms to speak, and given some minor conditions, he will come. He will come and talk because he believes that everyone deserves Free Software. This is not monumental in any sort of "MS and the FSF coming closer together" sense. It was very nice of Microsoft to invite him though, but not more impressive than, say, a University or hackfest.
  - jaboutboul 7y ago
    It’s not a vindication of anything other than the free software movement and philosophy and how its permeated everywhere. It is more impressive than speaking at another venue because this just shows how open minded they’ve become now and I give them great credit for that if not anything else. Satya’s created such a seismic shift in mindset there in such a short time.
    - de_watcher 7y ago
      No, no shifts in MS or in Satya. It's just Google's web who ate the world. And the move to smartphones.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    > Anyone can invite rms to speak, and given some minor conditions, he will come. He will come and talk because he believes that everyone deserves Free Software. Oh? Here [1] he wrote this: > I am selective about the events I participate in. If you are inviting me to speak at a larger event, please inform me now of the overall nature of the event, so I can make an informed decision about whether to participate. Mr Stallman was at Microsoft Research, btw. It is a specific department of Microsoft. [1] https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/mysociety-community/zkyZpOXjgoQ/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/myso...
ChrisSD 7y ago
An English language article: https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard... Also Pedro Paulo explained what the content of the talk was: > Mostly standard talk. Importance of free software, GPL v3, GNU vs Linux. However, he had a list of "small requests": make Github push users to better software license hygiene, make hardware manufacturers to publish their hardware specs, make it easier to workaround Secure Boot. https://twitter.com/pedrovc/status/1169616695935172608 https://twitter.com/pedrovc/status/1169616695935172608
- userbinator 7y ago
  Agree strongly with the last two requests, but not so much the first one (but I guess it's to be expected for RMS.)
  - Macha 7y ago
    What's so objectionable about that. Honestly one of the more annoying to find problems with GitHub (and npm) is MIT licensed software with GPL dependencies, and even if you want to have closed source software on GitHub, having a "this software is closed source" UI element is still better license hygiene without forcing everything open source. I think honestly this is something other providers (Google code when it was around, gitlab now) are much better at.
    - garmaine 7y ago
      Um, GPL is not “closed source.”
      - jimmaswell 7y ago
        GPL code is essentially "don't-touch-with-a-39-and-a-half-foot-pole source" to most people who want any control over their project or are developing in a professional setting.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
fetbaffe 7y ago
"Stallman asked that there is no video taken using JavaScript" lol now I like Stallman.
- martin_a 7y ago
  I don't understand this reference, can someone explain it to me? (The Javascript part)
  - aargh_aargh 7y ago
    https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html
    - fetbaffe 7y ago
      Just love Stallmans criteria for nontrivial JavaScript programs, basically every JavaScript program is nontrivial. And it is okay to enable JavaScript temporarily so you can send a complaint to the website operators that they should remove JavaScript.
  - de_watcher 7y ago
    That's more about the content hosting on the platforms that push their proprietary js code onto the users. The basic ideas against these platforms are expressed in the AGPL license.
  - casmclas 7y ago
    According to the English language article https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard..., 'According to Segala, Stallman requests no video feeds in "places using proprietary JS."' Therefore, we see that his concern isn't about the language of implementation, but whether it's proprietary or not. So you could write a FOSS web video player and post a video of him there, but he doesn't want to be on YouTube since I can't say "well, this video player would be much nicer if..." and then do that.
  - 7y ago
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
The only thing more ironic than that is if he had his office in (Bill) Gates Hall (ie a building Bill Gates dontated a lot of money to have built). https://m.slashdot.org/story/44316 https://m.slashdot.org/story/44316
sleepysysadmin 7y ago
Edit/Sorry it was a joke about RMS.
- im3w1l 7y ago
 What do you mean?
- avryhof 7y ago
 Mike: Lenny, officially, the Church will not take any position on the religious implications of these phenomena. Personally, Lenny, I think it's a sign from God. But don't quote me on that. Peter Venkman: I think that's a smart move, Mike. Mayor Lenny: Now, I'm not gonna call a press conference and tell everyone to start praying. Winston Zeddemore: I'm, uh, Winston Zeddemore, Your Honor. I've only been with the company for a couple of weeks, but I gotta tell you: these things are real. Since I joined these men, I have seen shit that'll turn you white! Peter Venkman: Well, you can believe Mr. Pecker... Walter Peck: My name is "Peck." Peter Venkman: ...or you could accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions. Mayor Lenny: What do you mean, "biblical"? Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. Real Wrath-of-God type stuff! Peter Venkman: Exactly. Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Egon Spengler: 40 years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave! Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
katzeilla 7y ago
Shall we change that link to the English version?
RickJWagner 7y ago
I did NOT see that one coming.
moonbug 7y ago
I hope they've complied with all the requirements of his rider https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/mysociety-community/zkyZpOXjgoQ/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/myso...
- jasongill 7y ago
  His rider isn't really that bad, it's common sense stuff for someone who travels and does a lot of speaking engagements. All he really asks for at the event is some supplies to make tea and possibly 2 Pepsi's, which isn't exactly over-the-top
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    I don't know, man, the supplies needed to make 2 Pepsi's seem pretty intense.
    - mark-r 7y ago
      It would be easier if Pepsi released the formula under GPL.
- belorn 7y ago
  I would assume that most organizers of talks want to discuss the topic of the talk with the speaker (first requirement), while many speakers prefer to write their own talks rather than have one handed to them (second requirement). The only unusual requirement in that document that I could see is that he won't touch, be associated with or have the recordings of himself being used in proprietary software, which is kind of his thing and the basis for the work he does and did. Was it something else you were thinking about?
abcd_f 7y ago
Photographic evidence :) https://mobile.twitter.com/ItalyPaleAle/status/1169354916281778176 https://mobile.twitter.com/ItalyPaleAle/status/1169354916281... (Not mine, via Mark Russinovich)
thesuperbigfrog 7y ago
Without sounding too sacrilegious, Dr. Stallman is the Free Software Jesus--he preaches the gospel of Free Software to the whole world and associates with "sinners" calling them to repentance. If he can bring "the truth" of Free Software to Microsoft employees and help them "see the light", why wouldn't he? He certainly looks the part of Free Software prophet when dressed as Saint Ignuicius: https://stallman.org/saint.html https://stallman.org/saint.html Having met him in person, he is extremely sincere about his beliefs and practices and really does "practice what he preaches".
- ChrisSD 7y ago
  The thing that surprises people is not that Stallman went to Microsoft but that Microsoft invited him to talk. Back in the day Bill Gates would make signs to ward against evil if Richard "communist cancer" Stallman was anywhere near Redmond. How times have changed.
  - amenod 7y ago
    I am bit more cynical about this. Google and others have simply shown Microsoft how to make loads of money by opensourcing the project, while still keeping the upper hand on it. How to "opensource-but-not-quite-opensource" (Chrome/Chromium, Android/AOSP,...) the projects. Even Amazon didn't succeed in prying away Android from Google (Fire). So in my mind it's actually surprising that it took them so long to join the party. After all, what do they care if Linux is running as part of Windows, as long as they can sell the Windows licenses? It's not like "the year of Linux desktop" is coming anytime soon... :) I think the real danger to these companies are less-than-free licenses (think Commons Clause) which give most of the freedoms to the user, but still allow the original creators to retain some of the rights, making it possible for them to have a business model behind it (such business model that AWS^Wbigtech can't take away so easily). And in this case RMS is doing more harm than good by preaching about "pure freedom". Of course Microsoft is on the same side as he is. "Write the code, but give it away". What's not to like?
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
stiangrindvoll 7y ago
Good example of combining what you believe the most in and the ability to talk to the "enemy". Too many people does not even see that as an option.
Tepix 7y ago
Microsoft has come a long way. Obligatory Richard Stallman website reference: https://rms.sexy/ https://rms.sexy/
- el_cujo 7y ago
  I always see pictures of him in exotic locations/nature on his laptop, I wonder if he's actually doing stuff or if its just for the photo-op.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    JSol, RMS, the gerbil, Liz, and MG, at Kabuki in Cambridge. The expression on Richard's face is saying, "I don't know, why do you wrap gerbils in duct tape?" https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerbil-liz-mg.jpg https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerb...
- Digital-Citizen 7y ago
  Not according to the Ziff-Davis article they haven't: - Microsoft's Mark Russinovich presumably heard what Stallman said at his talk (which was said to be a "mostly standard talk"). Stallman's talk usually includes a clear description of how the free software movement he started predates the open source development methodology by over a decade and stands philosophically distinct as well. Yet Russinovich claims Stallman's talk is "OSS-related" which is right in line with why the open source development methodology was started: corporate cooption of a social movement that was posing a real threat to proprietary software. - ZDNet's article continues on this theme at the top and bottom of the article (as to be expected of corporate news which makes up the majority of computer news coverage and repeater/pointer sites like this one): "Each time Microsoft makes another open-source-related move these days, there are still always folks on Twitter or in comments on blog posts who caution that Microsoft hasn't really changed and never will be a true friend of open source. This change in Microsoft didn't happen overnight, but the momentum is growing.". Microsoft like "open source" instead of "free software" because open source doesn't question proprietary software, and thus doesn't question delivering proprietary software to OSes that respect a user's software freedom (the freedoms to run, inspect, share, and modify published computer software). The same opposition is as it was before, only the PR campaign has changed from namecalling ("Linux [sic] is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches") to appearing warmly welcoming ("Microsoft [heart symbol] Linux [sic]"). They dare not call a complete OS GNU/Linux (which it most likely is in both quotes) because that might bring software freedom to mind (I'll bet Stallman mentioned this as this too is part of every talk he's given for many years). What Ziff-Davis calls Stallman's "distaste for Microsoft" is clearly-explained and principled objections based in the facts of how computers work and an ethical examination of how we ought to treat each other with computers. But in corporate media it's necessary to downplay principled examination and explication in order to diminish the severity of the objection. Microsoft wants users to run a GNU/Linux system as a VM on top of Microsoft's system as that helps Microsoft collect payments (licensing or rent, depending on the details of hosting) and, perhaps more importantly, spy on literally every bit of data that the user's OS deals with. Spying is big business and directly tied to proprietary control over the user. Microsoft offers a service to help users host their VM on Microsoft-owned hardware (so-called "cloud computing") too. Just to show the stark difference: Stallman, by comparison, explains what "cloud computing" actually means in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComp... and why you should only run VMs on free software systems you own and control. No, Microsoft hasn't changed. In fact, nothing of substance has changed because ethics are too deeply rooted for any change and computing has only really altered in that more people are being offered computing services more than ever before. Software proprietors are still unmotivated by the same principles that software freedom activists are. Microsoft's change is quite superficial and PR-related: Microsoft has shifted their campaign from more honest but harsh terminology to more deceptive terminology which appears friendlier. The social harm of proprietary software continues apace.
bubble_talk 7y ago
If Microsoft hadn't embraced open source around the time Satya Nadella took over, by now they would have probably imploded and become irrelevant (I mean in the sense of how Bing is more or less irrelevant to most website owners even though it apparently makes a lot of money). Its not as if they decided to open source Windows XP.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  > If Microsoft hadn't embraced open source around the time Satya Nadella took over Microsoft were already well down the road to "embracing" open source before Nadella took over as CEO. The movement inside the company began around 2006 with folks like Scott Guthrie, Scott Hanselman, Phil Haack, Rob Conery and others pushing for more openness. Two open source licenses were created by Microsoft to accommodate such works (MS-PL and MS-RL[0]). When ASP.NET MVC was released in 2009 it was open-sourced and shipped with the MS-PL license. As with any large organisation it takes some time to build up the momentum to change their behaviour and strategy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_Source_Initiative#Microsoft_Public_License_(Ms-PL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_Source_Initiative#Micro...
  - pedrow 7y ago
    Also don't forget Rob Mensching[0] in 2004. [0]:http://robmensching.com/blog/posts/2004/4/5/windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset-has-released-as-open-source-on-sourceforge.net/ http://robmensching.com/blog/posts/2004/4/5/windows-installe...
    - teh_klev 7y ago
      Thanks, I forgot about Rob. I'm sure there's loads of others I've missed, Jon Galloway for example.
      - bubble_talk 7y ago
        Your comments would actually make sense if, say, Microsoft wasn't simultaneously going after Android phone makers to impose an "Android tax" during that very same period [1]. This is like saying: "I was really getting into open source. But I also wanted to contradict myself whenever it was convenient and profitable, as long as no one noticed. Its not really my fault that my left brain doesn't know what my right brain is doing as I am a large organization". While Microsoft may indeed be so big as to have such a dysfunctional brain, the rest of us don't suffer from such debilitations. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/android/is-android-being-stifled-by-a-microsoft-tax/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/android/is-android-being-stifl...
kokwak 7y ago
copy paste from RMS: open source != free software, and GitHub has already done enough damage to encourage developers to ignore the existence of software lincences
- farisjarrah 7y ago
  If you make a public repo, Github literally shows you a little chart that shows you how "Complete" your repo is. And if you don't have a License, Contributing, and Readme files, then that chart never shows as completed. What about that is Github encouraging developers to ignore software licenses?
seamyb88 7y ago
I am a huge fan of Stallman.He is as close to 100% correct on software ethics as anybody has ever been. His contribution to computing has been immense. However, in a world where your social status can go down easier than it can go up, I think it's nearly impossible for younger, non-established programmers to live by these rules. We should push society, and the powerful, towards FOSS. But until that happens, the individual will not have a chance.
- asciident 7y ago
  Agreed, he took a lot of those position when they were immensely unpopular, and remained consistent without overclaiming when they became popular. I still think he is right about GPL, walled gardens, hardware, etc. despite now again losing the popularity contest.
mdturnerphys 7y ago
I attended this. Here are a few notes: * This was organized like any other guest talk held at Microsoft Research, of which there are ~5/week, mostly by academic guests. * His host was Microsoft's Chief Economist, Michael Schwarz. Michael did his PhD work on free software and got to know Stallman then. * After hooking his computer up to the projector 10-15 minutes before the talk began he displayed a quite provocative political cartoon of his regarding the invasion of Iraq. * As mentioned elsewhere he prefaced his talk with a number of requests for Microsoft. * At one point he did state "Sometimes there is a use for windows." * That statement was immediately preceded by "It's getting rather hot in here. Can we do something like adjust the temperature or open some windows?" :) * Someone in Q&A questioned whether he would have come to Microsoft a few years ago and asked what has changed for him. He said he's just hadn't been invited and would have been happy to if he had been. For those in the Seattle area, he appears to be speaking at the central branch of the Seattle library this afternoon: https://www.fsf.org/events/richard-stallman-free-software-and-your-freedom-seattle-wa-1 https://www.fsf.org/events/richard-stallman-free-software-an... Related article from 2005: http://suseroot.com/rms.php http://suseroot.com/rms.php (note well the date)
- pedrocx486 7y ago
  >* At one point he did state "Sometimes there is a use for windows." Did hell just freeze over?
  - mdturnerphys 7y ago
    Read the next bullet :)
    - jsgo 7y ago
      to be fair, I initially stalled on that one too. Then kept reading and then was like, "oh, okay. Kind of like the 'Mac supports Windows' with a MacBook propping a window open joke. Got it."
      - pedrocx486 7y ago
weiweiwei 7y ago
This zdnet post seems to confuse free with open source

297 points by Khelouiati 7y ago

ptah 7y ago

hmmm, maybe m$ has changed? i'll wait another 10 years or so to see if embrace and extend before i can answer that conclusively :)

mrlala 7y ago
>m$ I think you are lost, this isn't slashdot from 15 years ago
ksangeelee 7y ago
Whether or not Microsoft has changed, I don't think this talk is has much bearing on that question. I believe that Microsoft's foray into free and open-source software is simply a response to the increasing irrelevance of their operating system to many developers who no longer have any specific need for anything Microsoft has to offer.

baybal2 7y ago

What he was doing there?

ableal 7y ago
Giving a talk at MS Research, it says in French in the piece. Looks like the standard Free Software presentation. The article says RMS requested no video taken using Javascript.
- Angostura 7y ago
  For a moment, I imagined RMS coding up something in Javascript to display the words "No video please".
w8rbt 7y ago
Telling them to use GNU/Linux.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  They already do. Just need to ditch everything except WSL - and we've got an acceptable MS OS.
  - huhtenberg 7y ago
    No, no that. Use "GNU/Linux", the term, vs just "Linux" :)
  - toyg 7y ago
    NT is not a bad OS, it makes some different tradeoffs than traditional POSIX systems and in some cases it’s objectively superior. It’s just the ecosystem on top that is a pile of flaming trash.
    - ChrisSD 7y ago
      It doesn't help that the Win32 layer on top of the NT kernel is a mess.
    - dcolkitt 7y ago
      > it makes some different tradeoffs than traditional POSIX systems and in some cases it’s objectively superior. I'm curious if you (or anyone else) have examples here. I haven't touched a Windows system in nearly 20 years, so I'm genuinely curious.
      - toyg 7y ago
        Just the other day I ended up on this: https://speakerdeck.com/trent/pyparallel-how-we-removed-the-gil-and-exploited-all-cores https://speakerdeck.com/trent/pyparallel-how-we-removed-the-... There is also that whole thing about kqueue/epoll vs Overlapped I/O which I think is pretty cool. The more I read about Windows, the more I find the cool stuff is underneath, buried under a mountain of developer-hostile commercial choices, a philosophical rejection of the command-line that dates to the '90s, bad tacked-on security, sprawling and messy APIs, and a forever-incomplete UI wavering between garish and spartan. Once you get past all that (and all the terrible software built on top of it), NT is actually a very interesting system to play with.

vadasambar 7y ago

The link is in French.

jaboutboul 7y ago

Monumental moment in both free software and Microsoft’s history. A decade ago he was probably the most persona non grata. Look at how far we’ve come. To all the people who were bashing them in the comments a few days ago about the OIN patent grant, you guys still bitter? Cause it looks like RMS isn’t.

craigsmansion 7y ago
Contrary to what you seem imply, this is not some sort of vindication for Microsoft. Anyone can invite rms to speak, and given some minor conditions, he will come. He will come and talk because he believes that everyone deserves Free Software. This is not monumental in any sort of "MS and the FSF coming closer together" sense. It was very nice of Microsoft to invite him though, but not more impressive than, say, a University or hackfest.
- jaboutboul 7y ago
  It’s not a vindication of anything other than the free software movement and philosophy and how its permeated everywhere. It is more impressive than speaking at another venue because this just shows how open minded they’ve become now and I give them great credit for that if not anything else. Satya’s created such a seismic shift in mindset there in such a short time.
  - de_watcher 7y ago
    No, no shifts in MS or in Satya. It's just Google's web who ate the world. And the move to smartphones.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  > Anyone can invite rms to speak, and given some minor conditions, he will come. He will come and talk because he believes that everyone deserves Free Software. Oh? Here [1] he wrote this: > I am selective about the events I participate in. If you are inviting me to speak at a larger event, please inform me now of the overall nature of the event, so I can make an informed decision about whether to participate. Mr Stallman was at Microsoft Research, btw. It is a specific department of Microsoft. [1] https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/mysociety-community/zkyZpOXjgoQ/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/myso...

ChrisSD 7y ago

An English language article: https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard... Also Pedro Paulo explained what the content of the talk was: > Mostly standard talk. Importance of free software, GPL v3, GNU vs Linux. However, he had a list of "small requests": make Github push users to better software license hygiene, make hardware manufacturers to publish their hardware specs, make it easier to workaround Secure Boot. https://twitter.com/pedrovc/status/1169616695935172608 https://twitter.com/pedrovc/status/1169616695935172608

userbinator 7y ago
Agree strongly with the last two requests, but not so much the first one (but I guess it's to be expected for RMS.)
- Macha 7y ago
  What's so objectionable about that. Honestly one of the more annoying to find problems with GitHub (and npm) is MIT licensed software with GPL dependencies, and even if you want to have closed source software on GitHub, having a "this software is closed source" UI element is still better license hygiene without forcing everything open source. I think honestly this is something other providers (Google code when it was around, gitlab now) are much better at.
  - garmaine 7y ago
    Um, GPL is not “closed source.”
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      GPL code is essentially "don't-touch-with-a-39-and-a-half-foot-pole source" to most people who want any control over their project or are developing in a professional setting.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

fetbaffe 7y ago

"Stallman asked that there is no video taken using JavaScript" lol now I like Stallman.

martin_a 7y ago
I don't understand this reference, can someone explain it to me? (The Javascript part)
- aargh_aargh 7y ago
  https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html
  - fetbaffe 7y ago
    Just love Stallmans criteria for nontrivial JavaScript programs, basically every JavaScript program is nontrivial. And it is okay to enable JavaScript temporarily so you can send a complaint to the website operators that they should remove JavaScript.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  That's more about the content hosting on the platforms that push their proprietary js code onto the users. The basic ideas against these platforms are expressed in the AGPL license.
- casmclas 7y ago
  According to the English language article https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard..., 'According to Segala, Stallman requests no video feeds in "places using proprietary JS."' Therefore, we see that his concern isn't about the language of implementation, but whether it's proprietary or not. So you could write a FOSS web video player and post a video of him there, but he doesn't want to be on YouTube since I can't say "well, this video player would be much nicer if..." and then do that.
- 7y ago

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

The only thing more ironic than that is if he had his office in (Bill) Gates Hall (ie a building Bill Gates dontated a lot of money to have built). https://m.slashdot.org/story/44316 https://m.slashdot.org/story/44316

sleepysysadmin 7y ago

Edit/Sorry it was a joke about RMS.

im3w1l 7y ago
What do you mean?
avryhof 7y ago
Mike: Lenny, officially, the Church will not take any position on the religious implications of these phenomena. Personally, Lenny, I think it's a sign from God. But don't quote me on that. Peter Venkman: I think that's a smart move, Mike. Mayor Lenny: Now, I'm not gonna call a press conference and tell everyone to start praying. Winston Zeddemore: I'm, uh, Winston Zeddemore, Your Honor. I've only been with the company for a couple of weeks, but I gotta tell you: these things are real. Since I joined these men, I have seen shit that'll turn you white! Peter Venkman: Well, you can believe Mr. Pecker... Walter Peck: My name is "Peck." Peter Venkman: ...or you could accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions. Mayor Lenny: What do you mean, "biblical"? Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. Real Wrath-of-God type stuff! Peter Venkman: Exactly. Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Egon Spengler: 40 years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave! Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

katzeilla 7y ago

Shall we change that link to the English version?

RickJWagner 7y ago

I did NOT see that one coming.

moonbug 7y ago

I hope they've complied with all the requirements of his rider https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/mysociety-community/zkyZpOXjgoQ/_8xyXSxv9zYJ https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/forum/m/#!msg/myso...

jasongill 7y ago
His rider isn't really that bad, it's common sense stuff for someone who travels and does a lot of speaking engagements. All he really asks for at the event is some supplies to make tea and possibly 2 Pepsi's, which isn't exactly over-the-top
- saalweachter 7y ago
  I don't know, man, the supplies needed to make 2 Pepsi's seem pretty intense.
  - mark-r 7y ago
    It would be easier if Pepsi released the formula under GPL.
belorn 7y ago
I would assume that most organizers of talks want to discuss the topic of the talk with the speaker (first requirement), while many speakers prefer to write their own talks rather than have one handed to them (second requirement). The only unusual requirement in that document that I could see is that he won't touch, be associated with or have the recordings of himself being used in proprietary software, which is kind of his thing and the basis for the work he does and did. Was it something else you were thinking about?

abcd_f 7y ago

Photographic evidence :) https://mobile.twitter.com/ItalyPaleAle/status/1169354916281778176 https://mobile.twitter.com/ItalyPaleAle/status/1169354916281... (Not mine, via Mark Russinovich)

thesuperbigfrog 7y ago

Without sounding too sacrilegious, Dr. Stallman is the Free Software Jesus--he preaches the gospel of Free Software to the whole world and associates with "sinners" calling them to repentance. If he can bring "the truth" of Free Software to Microsoft employees and help them "see the light", why wouldn't he? He certainly looks the part of Free Software prophet when dressed as Saint Ignuicius: https://stallman.org/saint.html https://stallman.org/saint.html Having met him in person, he is extremely sincere about his beliefs and practices and really does "practice what he preaches".

ChrisSD 7y ago
The thing that surprises people is not that Stallman went to Microsoft but that Microsoft invited him to talk. Back in the day Bill Gates would make signs to ward against evil if Richard "communist cancer" Stallman was anywhere near Redmond. How times have changed.
- amenod 7y ago
  I am bit more cynical about this. Google and others have simply shown Microsoft how to make loads of money by opensourcing the project, while still keeping the upper hand on it. How to "opensource-but-not-quite-opensource" (Chrome/Chromium, Android/AOSP,...) the projects. Even Amazon didn't succeed in prying away Android from Google (Fire). So in my mind it's actually surprising that it took them so long to join the party. After all, what do they care if Linux is running as part of Windows, as long as they can sell the Windows licenses? It's not like "the year of Linux desktop" is coming anytime soon... :) I think the real danger to these companies are less-than-free licenses (think Commons Clause) which give most of the freedoms to the user, but still allow the original creators to retain some of the rights, making it possible for them to have a business model behind it (such business model that AWS^Wbigtech can't take away so easily). And in this case RMS is doing more harm than good by preaching about "pure freedom". Of course Microsoft is on the same side as he is. "Write the code, but give it away". What's not to like?
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago

stiangrindvoll 7y ago

Good example of combining what you believe the most in and the ability to talk to the "enemy". Too many people does not even see that as an option.

Tepix 7y ago

Microsoft has come a long way. Obligatory Richard Stallman website reference: https://rms.sexy/ https://rms.sexy/

el_cujo 7y ago
I always see pictures of him in exotic locations/nature on his laptop, I wonder if he's actually doing stuff or if its just for the photo-op.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  JSol, RMS, the gerbil, Liz, and MG, at Kabuki in Cambridge. The expression on Richard's face is saying, "I don't know, why do you wrap gerbils in duct tape?" https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerbil-liz-mg.jpg https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/images/jsol-rms-gerb...
Digital-Citizen 7y ago
Not according to the Ziff-Davis article they haven't: - Microsoft's Mark Russinovich presumably heard what Stallman said at his talk (which was said to be a "mostly standard talk"). Stallman's talk usually includes a clear description of how the free software movement he started predates the open source development methodology by over a decade and stands philosophically distinct as well. Yet Russinovich claims Stallman's talk is "OSS-related" which is right in line with why the open source development methodology was started: corporate cooption of a social movement that was posing a real threat to proprietary software. - ZDNet's article continues on this theme at the top and bottom of the article (as to be expected of corporate news which makes up the majority of computer news coverage and repeater/pointer sites like this one): "Each time Microsoft makes another open-source-related move these days, there are still always folks on Twitter or in comments on blog posts who caution that Microsoft hasn't really changed and never will be a true friend of open source. This change in Microsoft didn't happen overnight, but the momentum is growing.". Microsoft like "open source" instead of "free software" because open source doesn't question proprietary software, and thus doesn't question delivering proprietary software to OSes that respect a user's software freedom (the freedoms to run, inspect, share, and modify published computer software). The same opposition is as it was before, only the PR campaign has changed from namecalling ("Linux [sic] is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches") to appearing warmly welcoming ("Microsoft [heart symbol] Linux [sic]"). They dare not call a complete OS GNU/Linux (which it most likely is in both quotes) because that might bring software freedom to mind (I'll bet Stallman mentioned this as this too is part of every talk he's given for many years). What Ziff-Davis calls Stallman's "distaste for Microsoft" is clearly-explained and principled objections based in the facts of how computers work and an ethical examination of how we ought to treat each other with computers. But in corporate media it's necessary to downplay principled examination and explication in order to diminish the severity of the objection. Microsoft wants users to run a GNU/Linux system as a VM on top of Microsoft's system as that helps Microsoft collect payments (licensing or rent, depending on the details of hosting) and, perhaps more importantly, spy on literally every bit of data that the user's OS deals with. Spying is big business and directly tied to proprietary control over the user. Microsoft offers a service to help users host their VM on Microsoft-owned hardware (so-called "cloud computing") too. Just to show the stark difference: Stallman, by comparison, explains what "cloud computing" actually means in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComputing https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#CloudComp... and why you should only run VMs on free software systems you own and control. No, Microsoft hasn't changed. In fact, nothing of substance has changed because ethics are too deeply rooted for any change and computing has only really altered in that more people are being offered computing services more than ever before. Software proprietors are still unmotivated by the same principles that software freedom activists are. Microsoft's change is quite superficial and PR-related: Microsoft has shifted their campaign from more honest but harsh terminology to more deceptive terminology which appears friendlier. The social harm of proprietary software continues apace.

bubble_talk 7y ago

If Microsoft hadn't embraced open source around the time Satya Nadella took over, by now they would have probably imploded and become irrelevant (I mean in the sense of how Bing is more or less irrelevant to most website owners even though it apparently makes a lot of money). Its not as if they decided to open source Windows XP.

teh_klev 7y ago
> If Microsoft hadn't embraced open source around the time Satya Nadella took over Microsoft were already well down the road to "embracing" open source before Nadella took over as CEO. The movement inside the company began around 2006 with folks like Scott Guthrie, Scott Hanselman, Phil Haack, Rob Conery and others pushing for more openness. Two open source licenses were created by Microsoft to accommodate such works (MS-PL and MS-RL[0]). When ASP.NET MVC was released in 2009 it was open-sourced and shipped with the MS-PL license. As with any large organisation it takes some time to build up the momentum to change their behaviour and strategy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_Source_Initiative#Microsoft_Public_License_(Ms-PL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_Source_Initiative#Micro...
- pedrow 7y ago
  Also don't forget Rob Mensching[0] in 2004. [0]:http://robmensching.com/blog/posts/2004/4/5/windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset-has-released-as-open-source-on-sourceforge.net/ http://robmensching.com/blog/posts/2004/4/5/windows-installe...
  - teh_klev 7y ago
    Thanks, I forgot about Rob. I'm sure there's loads of others I've missed, Jon Galloway for example.
    - bubble_talk 7y ago
      Your comments would actually make sense if, say, Microsoft wasn't simultaneously going after Android phone makers to impose an "Android tax" during that very same period [1]. This is like saying: "I was really getting into open source. But I also wanted to contradict myself whenever it was convenient and profitable, as long as no one noticed. Its not really my fault that my left brain doesn't know what my right brain is doing as I am a large organization". While Microsoft may indeed be so big as to have such a dysfunctional brain, the rest of us don't suffer from such debilitations. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/android/is-android-being-stifled-by-a-microsoft-tax/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/android/is-android-being-stifl...

kokwak 7y ago

copy paste from RMS: open source != free software, and GitHub has already done enough damage to encourage developers to ignore the existence of software lincences

farisjarrah 7y ago
If you make a public repo, Github literally shows you a little chart that shows you how "Complete" your repo is. And if you don't have a License, Contributing, and Readme files, then that chart never shows as completed. What about that is Github encouraging developers to ignore software licenses?

seamyb88 7y ago

I am a huge fan of Stallman.He is as close to 100% correct on software ethics as anybody has ever been. His contribution to computing has been immense. However, in a world where your social status can go down easier than it can go up, I think it's nearly impossible for younger, non-established programmers to live by these rules. We should push society, and the powerful, towards FOSS. But until that happens, the individual will not have a chance.

asciident 7y ago
Agreed, he took a lot of those position when they were immensely unpopular, and remained consistent without overclaiming when they became popular. I still think he is right about GPL, walled gardens, hardware, etc. despite now again losing the popularity contest.

mdturnerphys 7y ago

I attended this. Here are a few notes: * This was organized like any other guest talk held at Microsoft Research, of which there are ~5/week, mostly by academic guests. * His host was Microsoft's Chief Economist, Michael Schwarz. Michael did his PhD work on free software and got to know Stallman then. * After hooking his computer up to the projector 10-15 minutes before the talk began he displayed a quite provocative political cartoon of his regarding the invasion of Iraq. * As mentioned elsewhere he prefaced his talk with a number of requests for Microsoft. * At one point he did state "Sometimes there is a use for windows." * That statement was immediately preceded by "It's getting rather hot in here. Can we do something like adjust the temperature or open some windows?" :) * Someone in Q&A questioned whether he would have come to Microsoft a few years ago and asked what has changed for him. He said he's just hadn't been invited and would have been happy to if he had been. For those in the Seattle area, he appears to be speaking at the central branch of the Seattle library this afternoon: https://www.fsf.org/events/richard-stallman-free-software-and-your-freedom-seattle-wa-1 https://www.fsf.org/events/richard-stallman-free-software-an... Related article from 2005: http://suseroot.com/rms.php http://suseroot.com/rms.php (note well the date)

pedrocx486 7y ago
>* At one point he did state "Sometimes there is a use for windows." Did hell just freeze over?
- mdturnerphys 7y ago
  Read the next bullet :)
  - jsgo 7y ago
    to be fair, I initially stalled on that one too. Then kept reading and then was like, "oh, okay. Kind of like the 'Mac supports Windows' with a MacBook propping a window open joke. Got it."
    - pedrocx486 7y ago

weiweiwei 7y ago

This zdnet post seems to confuse free with open source