23 ms·

Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

608 points by riffraff 7y ago

dirtyid 7y ago
Transcript of Lam's speech: Fellow citizens, For more than two months, protests arising from the Fugitive Offenders Bill have continued. Our citizens, police and reporters have been injured during violent incidents. There have been chaotic scenes at the airport and MTR stations; roads and tunnels have been suddenly blocked, causing delay and inconvenience to daily life. Visitors wonder whether our city is still a safe place for travel or business. Families and friends have been under stress, and arguments have flared. We have also seen abuse and bullying in some schools and on the Internet. For many people, Hong Kong has become an unfamiliar place. Incidents over these past two months have shocked and saddened Hong Kong people. We are all very anxious about Hong Kong, our home. We all hope to find a way out of the current impasse and unsettling times. Of the "five demands" raised by the public, we have in fact responded on various occasions: (i) First, on withdrawing the Bill. On June 15 I announced that the Bill was suspended and later reiterated that "the Bill is dead" and that all the legislative work had come to a complete halt; (ii) Second, on setting up a Commission of Inquiry. The Government believes that matters relating to police enforcement actions are best handled by the existing and well-established Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC), which was set up for exactly this purpose. In addition to handling complaints against individual police officers, the IPCC has undertaken a fact-finding study, under its powers, on the handling of large-scale public order events that took place after June 9. One focus will be the Yuen Long incident on July 21 which attracted serious public concern. The study aims to ascertain the facts, to assess the police handling of protests, and to make recommendations to the Government. The IPCC has established a panel of international experts to assist in its work and will make its findings and recommendations public; (iii) Third, on the matter of the protest being a riot. We have explained that in fact there is no legal effect on how such incidents are described or categorised. The Department of Justice has assured the public that each and every prosecution decision is based on the evidence collected, and is in strict accordance with the relevant law and the Prosecution Code; (iv) Fourth, on dropping charges against protesters and rioters and shelving prosecutions. I have explained that this is contrary to the rule of law, and is not acceptable. It also goes against the Basic Law, which states that criminal prosecutions must be handled by the Department of Justice, free from any interference; (v) Fifth, on implementing universal suffrage. Indeed, this is the ultimate aim laid down in the Basic Law. As we said before, if we are to achieve this, discussions must be undertaken within the legal framework, and in an atmosphere that is conducive to mutual trust and understanding, and without further polarising society. Our responses to the five demands have been made with full consideration of different constraints and circumstances. I recognise that these may not be able to address all the grievances of people in society. However, should we all think deeply whether escalating violence and disturbances is the answer? Or whether it is better to sit down to find a way out through dialogue. Many would say that we need a common basis to start such a dialogue, and that this has to start with the Chief Executive. I now present four actions to initiate this dialogue. First, the Government will formally withdraw the Bill in order to fully allay public concerns. The Secretary for Security will move a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes. Second, we will fully support the work of the IPCC. In addition to the overseas experts, I have appointed two new members to the IPCC, namely Mrs Helen Yu Lai Ching-ping and Mr Paul Lam Ting-kwok, SC. I pledge that the Government will seriously follow up the recommendations made in the IPCC's report. Third, from this month, I and my Principal Officials will reach out to the community to start a direct dialogue. People from all walks of life, with different stances and backgrounds are invited to share their views and air their grievances. We must find ways to address the discontent in society and to look for solutions. Fourth, I will invite community leaders, professionals and academics to independently examine and review society's deep-seated problems and to advise the Government on finding solutions. After more than two months of social unrest, it is obvious to many that discontentment extends far beyond the Bill. It covers political, economic and social issues, including the oft-mentioned problems relating to housing and land supply, income distribution, social justice and mobility, and opportunities for our young people, as well as how the public could be fully engaged in the Government's decision-making. We can discuss all these issues in our new dialogue platform. Fellow citizens, lingering violence is damaging the very foundations of our society, especially the rule of law. Some people, though not many, attacked the Central Government's office in Hong Kong and vandalised the national flag and national emblem. This is a direct challenge to "One Country, Two Systems". Both have put Hong Kong in a highly vulnerable and dangerous situation. Irrespective of our grievances, or the depth of discontentment towards the Government, we cannot agree or accept that violence is a solution to our problems. Our foremost priority now is to end violence, to safeguard the rule of law and to restore order and safety in society. As such, the Government has to strictly enforce the law against all violent and illegal acts. My team and I hope that the four actions just announced can help our society to move forward. Let's replace conflicts with conversations, and let's look for solutions.
investologia 7y ago
Hong Kong case should be something kids learn at school. People have the power to make a change no matter how impossible the situation seems to be.
tony 7y ago
Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in the day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%931949) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%... There's an important political figure in the history of modern China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was Cantonese, like many of HK people. He has a University in GZ named after him! If you would like to learn more about history of China this professor is fantastic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum, in particular, The Fall and Rise of China The Teaching Company, 2010 is really good. It's on audible. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara.gov/pacific/san-francisco/gallery/9995-Cabin-Sun-Yat-Sen.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara...
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
  Why is it surprising? Cantonese is one of the largest subgroups of "han".
  - tony 7y ago
    Not that, but him still being considered a national hero despite his having a different political philosophy.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  Sun Yat-sen is the father of the Republic. A revolutionary in his own right. He has a huge mausoleum in Nanjing. His portrait used to be where Mao's is now on Tiananmen. And his portrait is still displayed in Taiwan's parliament (the Republic of China's parliament). It certainly helped his official standing in mainland China that he died in 1925, i.e. only soon after the Communist Party was founded and before the bulk of the civil war.
- odiroot 7y ago
m3at 7y ago
Off-topic: how is this website readable without ad blocking? They seem to attempt to make finding the bit belonging to the article a game of whack a mole
- kragen 7y ago
  The AMP link helps, in the browser “links”.
win2020big 7y ago
5 demands only one been solved, hong kong gov must meet all the demands .otherwise bomb will notsafely dismantled and things keep complexed..
win2020big 7y ago
Hong kong Gov should meet all 5 demands from hker, otherwise the bomb will keep on fire..Thausands people still been captured illegal.. Hong kong is great city and place for Chinese people to discuss the democracy and freedom .. freedom land for billion people Hope..
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dirtyid 7y ago
I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instructed Lam not to give in to any demands a week ago. Lam capitulating is Beijing capitulating, and Beijing is not going to capitulate with 70th anniversary coming up and activated mainland nationalism. Beijing is all in. For mainlanders, after how events have been portrayed by state media, Lam is basically acquiescing to terrorists. The situation is developing and I think there's a very narrow set of outcomes where this would not backfire spectacularly.
- ephemeralism 7y ago
  Do you have a source for this claim that Beijing instructed her to not give in to any demands?
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-china-exclusive/exclusive-amid-crisis-china-rejected-hong-kong-plan-to-appease-protesters-sources-idUSKCN1VK0H6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-china-e... >The Chinese central government rejected Lam’s proposal to withdraw the extradition bill and ordered her not to yield to any of the protesters’ other demands at that time, three individuals with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- dragonsh 7y ago
  > I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as symbolic defeat and for Hong Kong Chinese citizens it will be a symbolic win. As it is said in order to win larger battle one needs to lose smaller one, extradition bill was already dead, now it's withdrawn until it's introduced by someone else later. In larger picture it will be sacrificing pawn. If the violent protest continue, then it will be seen as challenging one country two system as the Hong Kong CEO proclaimed in her pre-recorded message. She is just saying in an indirect way this is her last ditch effort to salvage the situation. Hope this brings down the tempers and hopefully this put an end to violent protests, which has destroyed city and society. Violence can never be a solution, only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change.
hardmaru 7y ago
Five demands, not one less. 五大訴求，缺一不可。
- ackbar03 7y ago
  https://youtu.be/9bAoq7k3tZ0 https://youtu.be/9bAoq7k3tZ0 No seriously, these demands are a joke and not constructive. If anything it's just being used as an excuse to cause more chaos. I'm trying to keep this comment as a logical opinion since I know hn isn't a place for flamed political views
  - deugtniet 7y ago
    If you say something is a joke, and post an opinion through a music video. You cannot then claim your opinion is logical. Protestors opinions cannot be reduced to a joke without any explanation.
  - darkcha0s 7y ago
    Without any context, this comment actually just reads like a pile of garbage.
  - artsyca 7y ago
    It's true the protesters have adopted an equally rigid stance, both sides will have to somewhat soften, but history will prove that freedom reigns
- stuaxo 7y ago
  Can someone translate / explain this ?
  - oskarth 7y ago
    五大訴求，缺一不可。 Five big demands, can’t do without any of them. 五 5 大 big 訴求 demands 缺一不可 fixed expression “none is dispensable” (缺 lack 一 one 不 no 可 can/possible) The five demand in question are the ones there is broad consensus on, see other threads.
  - 7y ago
strangeJ 7y ago
Too much hacker news are political these days.
doomleika 7y ago
Now HKG have gave them an inch. I hope they have plenty of miles to spare. The "five demands, no less" itself is impossible for HKG. EB itself is already dead months ago. This will only embolden they rioters. 10 dollars on 0907 will be even worse.
draw_down 7y ago
Direct action works.
AFascistWorld 7y ago
The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doomed in the foreseeable future. It hit China particularly hard because pork is their cheapest(by a large margin) and main red meat, compounding it is that China can't deign to import cheap NA feed crops and pork coz America is the enemy now, price is now around 3 dollars per 500g, pricier than imported Australian beef (Chinese beef is usually twice the price of pork), and is expected to hike even more during holiday season and Chinese new year, maintain a high level after that. Chinese people don't care about politics, but pork prices will push basically everything more expensive and force them to care, and that's dangerous for the party.
- steve19 7y ago
  A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec. Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.
  - AFascistWorld 7y ago
    Well, the party has stated loud and clear that China will fight America (and the evil West) no matter what, at all costs and to the very end.
    - blfr 7y ago
      Soviet communists also used to say this.
      - imglorp 7y ago
        Interesting yes. There's a great Freakonomics about the history of supermarkets which turns out to have been a major force in the cold war. USDA pushed and supported cheap mass production and even transportation, making what we now expect in a big, well stocked market with low prices and wide selection. We set up modern demo markets in the Ukraine which probably hit home, literally, because the Soviet markets were bare and droll. This tech was even studied by the Soviets but they couldn't reproduce it. It seems hitting the stomachs was just as important as hitting the minds and the missiles. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/farms-race/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/farms-race/
auslander 7y ago
Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I bet police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in painted suits and face shields.
- gruez 7y ago
  What paint is hard to wash off? You can remove most with acetone or paint thinner (mineral spirits).
  - auslander 7y ago
    > Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I bet police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in painted suits and face shields. Dunno, but graffiti is a pain to wash off the walls.
riffic 7y ago
Direct action, as they say, gets the goods.
stevespang 7y ago
Bejing has already ordered tanks to roll, it is now just a matter of time.
euix 7y ago
If push comes to shove Beijing will kill the "not-so-golden-now goose". Especially now that Xi has effectively consolidated control over the coercive forces of the Chinese state. As long as the security and the army is with him it will work. Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is sent to govern directly. A lot of people said if Beijing cracked down in '89 that would be the end of the regime but that never happened. Obviously there are parallels and differences but overall I see Hong Kong as being at least one order of magnitude less severe than Beijing, then even some party official's kids were protesting and they got rolled over with tanks all the same. I can see where the protestors are coming from, for them, its like living in a world you increasingly don't understand and is alien. But at the same time, I think internally they have to know this protest is just an outward manifestation of fatalism, "shattering like a jewel". If I were a youth in Hong Kong, I either find a way to immigrate or find a way to integrate.
- lacker 7y ago
  Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is sent to govern directly. Nah, the worst case is that some of the protesters acquire nuclear weapons, threaten mainland China with them, Xi calls their bluff and moves in, it wasn't a bluff, Xi blames America, nuclear World War 3 starts. Or perhaps this peaceful protest gets quashed, and a violent insurrection that lasts decades begins. Beijing has a lot of places to hide IEDs. But it is possible that this dies down and Hong Kong peacefully submits to communism.
phantomathkg 7y ago
Don't believe in her word yet. Her word is "move a motion" when the Legislative Council resume in October, and the Security Minister, John Lee Ka-Chiu, submit the withdrawal to LegCo. At that point, the pro-Beijing LegCo member can reject such motion and continue the third reading of the bill and Beijing win. The other possibility is where we, the Hongkonger, continue demanding the rest of the four major demands, and CCP and Lam got so annoyed and trying to order a curfew. Again, this is not something any of us want.
- y2kenny 7y ago
  This is another fake move by Carrie Lam. A withdraw only requires a simple declaration and not a motion that require a vote. https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/ https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/
  - dbcurtis 7y ago
    Link is Chinese. Just FYI to other non-Chinese readers. What are the LegCo rules of procedure around this? Is there something we can read in English translation? Whether or not a motion is required seems a major point.
    - y2kenny 7y ago
      * Updated: Office of the Chief Executive just responded to media inquiry [4] and clarified that the withdraw will be an announcement not involving vote or debate per rule 64. (I haven't found an English copy yet.) Before update: Today's press release [1]: "The Secretary for Security will move a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes." The relevant official text of the above chinese link: Rule of Procedure of the Legislative Council (LegCo) 64(2) and (3)[2]: "(2) The Member or public officer in charge of a bill may, by an announcement made in Council at the beginning of proceedings for the resumption of the second reading debate on the bill, withdraw the bill if - (a) the purpose of the resumption is for making such an announcement; and (b) such purpose has been so stated in the notice of the resumption of debate given under Rule 54(5) (Second Reading). (L.N. 74 of 2005) (3) The Member or public officer in charge of a bill may, in making an announcement for the withdrawal of the bill under subrule (2), address the Council on matters relevant to the withdrawal but no debate may arise on such an address. (L.N. 74 of 2005)" So no motion/debate/vote is needed. People are saying the Article 23/national security bill in 2003 was withdrawn by simple gazetting, without any motion or debate. This is the equivalent press back then [3]. [1] https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666p.htm https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666... [2] https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/partk.htm#64 https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/pa... [3] https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm [4] https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.h...
andy_bandy 7y ago
Back to kidnapping people off the streets I guess. More friction but gets the job done.
president 7y ago
Anyone able to share how this is being framed in the Chinese media?
daneel_w 7y ago
Carrie Lam has not withdrawn the law proposal. She has begun a motion that will look into IF the proposal is going to be withdrawn. This is a world of difference. Additionally, from what can be read in various updates from the protesters, the person who will be tasked with the "looking-into" will be a Hong Kong government official, and the public will not be invited for enquiry.

608 points by riffraff 7y ago

Transcript of Lam's speech: Fellow citizens, For more than two months, protests arising from the Fugitive Offenders Bill have continued. Our citizens, police and reporters have been injured during violent incidents. There have been chaotic scenes at the airport and MTR stations; roads and tunnels have been suddenly blocked, causing delay and inconvenience to daily life. Visitors wonder whether our city is still a safe place for travel or business. Families and friends have been under stress, and arguments have flared. We have also seen abuse and bullying in some schools and on the Internet. For many people, Hong Kong has become an unfamiliar place. Incidents over these past two months have shocked and saddened Hong Kong people. We are all very anxious about Hong Kong, our home. We all hope to find a way out of the current impasse and unsettling times. Of the "five demands" raised by the public, we have in fact responded on various occasions: (i) First, on withdrawing the Bill. On June 15 I announced that the Bill was suspended and later reiterated that "the Bill is dead" and that all the legislative work had come to a complete halt; (ii) Second, on setting up a Commission of Inquiry. The Government believes that matters relating to police enforcement actions are best handled by the existing and well-established Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC), which was set up for exactly this purpose. In addition to handling complaints against individual police officers, the IPCC has undertaken a fact-finding study, under its powers, on the handling of large-scale public order events that took place after June 9. One focus will be the Yuen Long incident on July 21 which attracted serious public concern. The study aims to ascertain the facts, to assess the police handling of protests, and to make recommendations to the Government. The IPCC has established a panel of international experts to assist in its work and will make its findings and recommendations public; (iii) Third, on the matter of the protest being a riot. We have explained that in fact there is no legal effect on how such incidents are described or categorised. The Department of Justice has assured the public that each and every prosecution decision is based on the evidence collected, and is in strict accordance with the relevant law and the Prosecution Code; (iv) Fourth, on dropping charges against protesters and rioters and shelving prosecutions. I have explained that this is contrary to the rule of law, and is not acceptable. It also goes against the Basic Law, which states that criminal prosecutions must be handled by the Department of Justice, free from any interference; (v) Fifth, on implementing universal suffrage. Indeed, this is the ultimate aim laid down in the Basic Law. As we said before, if we are to achieve this, discussions must be undertaken within the legal framework, and in an atmosphere that is conducive to mutual trust and understanding, and without further polarising society. Our responses to the five demands have been made with full consideration of different constraints and circumstances. I recognise that these may not be able to address all the grievances of people in society. However, should we all think deeply whether escalating violence and disturbances is the answer? Or whether it is better to sit down to find a way out through dialogue. Many would say that we need a common basis to start such a dialogue, and that this has to start with the Chief Executive. I now present four actions to initiate this dialogue. First, the Government will formally withdraw the Bill in order to fully allay public concerns. The Secretary for Security will move a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes. Second, we will fully support the work of the IPCC. In addition to the overseas experts, I have appointed two new members to the IPCC, namely Mrs Helen Yu Lai Ching-ping and Mr Paul Lam Ting-kwok, SC. I pledge that the Government will seriously follow up the recommendations made in the IPCC's report. Third, from this month, I and my Principal Officials will reach out to the community to start a direct dialogue. People from all walks of life, with different stances and backgrounds are invited to share their views and air their grievances. We must find ways to address the discontent in society and to look for solutions. Fourth, I will invite community leaders, professionals and academics to independently examine and review society's deep-seated problems and to advise the Government on finding solutions. After more than two months of social unrest, it is obvious to many that discontentment extends far beyond the Bill. It covers political, economic and social issues, including the oft-mentioned problems relating to housing and land supply, income distribution, social justice and mobility, and opportunities for our young people, as well as how the public could be fully engaged in the Government's decision-making. We can discuss all these issues in our new dialogue platform. Fellow citizens, lingering violence is damaging the very foundations of our society, especially the rule of law. Some people, though not many, attacked the Central Government's office in Hong Kong and vandalised the national flag and national emblem. This is a direct challenge to "One Country, Two Systems". Both have put Hong Kong in a highly vulnerable and dangerous situation. Irrespective of our grievances, or the depth of discontentment towards the Government, we cannot agree or accept that violence is a solution to our problems. Our foremost priority now is to end violence, to safeguard the rule of law and to restore order and safety in society. As such, the Government has to strictly enforce the law against all violent and illegal acts. My team and I hope that the four actions just announced can help our society to move forward. Let's replace conflicts with conversations, and let's look for solutions.

investologia 7y ago

Hong Kong case should be something kids learn at school. People have the power to make a change no matter how impossible the situation seems to be.

tony 7y ago

Random: Did you know Guangzhou (Canton) was briefly capital of China back in the day? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%931949) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_(1912%E2%80%... There's an important political figure in the history of modern China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen He studied medicine in HK. He lived in Hawaii for a time [1]. He had a political philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was Cantonese, like many of HK people. He has a University in GZ named after him! If you would like to learn more about history of China this professor is fantastic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Baum, in particular, The Fall and Rise of China The Teaching Company, 2010 is really good. It's on audible. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara.gov/pacific/san-francisco/gallery/9995-Cabin-Sun-Yat-Sen.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20131016060255/http://media.nara...

KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
Why is it surprising? Cantonese is one of the largest subgroups of "han".
- tony 7y ago
  Not that, but him still being considered a national hero despite his having a different political philosophy.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
Sun Yat-sen is the father of the Republic. A revolutionary in his own right. He has a huge mausoleum in Nanjing. His portrait used to be where Mao's is now on Tiananmen. And his portrait is still displayed in Taiwan's parliament (the Republic of China's parliament). It certainly helped his official standing in mainland China that he died in 1925, i.e. only soon after the Communist Party was founded and before the bulk of the civil war.
odiroot 7y ago

m3at 7y ago

Off-topic: how is this website readable without ad blocking? They seem to attempt to make finding the bit belonging to the article a game of whack a mole

kragen 7y ago
The AMP link helps, in the browser “links”.

win2020big 7y ago

5 demands only one been solved, hong kong gov must meet all the demands .otherwise bomb will notsafely dismantled and things keep complexed..

win2020big 7y ago

Hong kong Gov should meet all 5 demands from hker, otherwise the bomb will keep on fire..Thausands people still been captured illegal.. Hong kong is great city and place for Chinese people to discuss the democracy and freedom .. freedom land for billion people Hope..

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

dirtyid 7y ago

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instructed Lam not to give in to any demands a week ago. Lam capitulating is Beijing capitulating, and Beijing is not going to capitulate with 70th anniversary coming up and activated mainland nationalism. Beijing is all in. For mainlanders, after how events have been portrayed by state media, Lam is basically acquiescing to terrorists. The situation is developing and I think there's a very narrow set of outcomes where this would not backfire spectacularly.

ephemeralism 7y ago
Do you have a source for this claim that Beijing instructed her to not give in to any demands?
- dirtyid 7y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-china-exclusive/exclusive-amid-crisis-china-rejected-hong-kong-plan-to-appease-protesters-sources-idUSKCN1VK0H6 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-protests-china-e... >The Chinese central government rejected Lam’s proposal to withdraw the extradition bill and ordered her not to yield to any of the protesters’ other demands at that time, three individuals with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
dragonsh 7y ago
> I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. This is endorsed and approved by Beijing, she already declared the bill dead this is just a matter of wording. Legally it can be brought back as laws are always evolving and Hong Kong needs an extradition treaty with other jurisdiction including another system in its own country. For Mainland Chinese citizen the narrative will be altered, but will still be seen as symbolic defeat and for Hong Kong Chinese citizens it will be a symbolic win. As it is said in order to win larger battle one needs to lose smaller one, extradition bill was already dead, now it's withdrawn until it's introduced by someone else later. In larger picture it will be sacrificing pawn. If the violent protest continue, then it will be seen as challenging one country two system as the Hong Kong CEO proclaimed in her pre-recorded message. She is just saying in an indirect way this is her last ditch effort to salvage the situation. Hope this brings down the tempers and hopefully this put an end to violent protests, which has destroyed city and society. Violence can never be a solution, only peaceful non-violent struggle can bring about real change.

hardmaru 7y ago

Five demands, not one less. 五大訴求，缺一不可。

ackbar03 7y ago
https://youtu.be/9bAoq7k3tZ0 https://youtu.be/9bAoq7k3tZ0 No seriously, these demands are a joke and not constructive. If anything it's just being used as an excuse to cause more chaos. I'm trying to keep this comment as a logical opinion since I know hn isn't a place for flamed political views
- deugtniet 7y ago
  If you say something is a joke, and post an opinion through a music video. You cannot then claim your opinion is logical. Protestors opinions cannot be reduced to a joke without any explanation.
- darkcha0s 7y ago
  Without any context, this comment actually just reads like a pile of garbage.
- artsyca 7y ago
  It's true the protesters have adopted an equally rigid stance, both sides will have to somewhat soften, but history will prove that freedom reigns
stuaxo 7y ago
Can someone translate / explain this ?
- oskarth 7y ago
  五大訴求，缺一不可。 Five big demands, can’t do without any of them. 五 5 大 big 訴求 demands 缺一不可 fixed expression “none is dispensable” (缺 lack 一 one 不 no 可 can/possible) The five demand in question are the ones there is broad consensus on, see other threads.
- 7y ago

strangeJ 7y ago

Too much hacker news are political these days.

doomleika 7y ago

Now HKG have gave them an inch. I hope they have plenty of miles to spare. The "five demands, no less" itself is impossible for HKG. EB itself is already dead months ago. This will only embolden they rioters. 10 dollars on 0907 will be even worse.

draw_down 7y ago

Direct action works.

AFascistWorld 7y ago

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doomed in the foreseeable future. It hit China particularly hard because pork is their cheapest(by a large margin) and main red meat, compounding it is that China can't deign to import cheap NA feed crops and pork coz America is the enemy now, price is now around 3 dollars per 500g, pricier than imported Australian beef (Chinese beef is usually twice the price of pork), and is expected to hike even more during holiday season and Chinese new year, maintain a high level after that. Chinese people don't care about politics, but pork prices will push basically everything more expensive and force them to care, and that's dangerous for the party.

steve19 7y ago
A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec. Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.
- AFascistWorld 7y ago
  Well, the party has stated loud and clear that China will fight America (and the evil West) no matter what, at all costs and to the very end.
  - blfr 7y ago
    Soviet communists also used to say this.
    - imglorp 7y ago
      Interesting yes. There's a great Freakonomics about the history of supermarkets which turns out to have been a major force in the cold war. USDA pushed and supported cheap mass production and even transportation, making what we now expect in a big, well stocked market with low prices and wide selection. We set up modern demo markets in the Ukraine which probably hit home, literally, because the Soviet markets were bare and droll. This tech was even studied by the Soviets but they couldn't reproduce it. It seems hitting the stomachs was just as important as hitting the minds and the missiles. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/farms-race/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/farms-race/

auslander 7y ago

Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I bet police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in painted suits and face shields.

gruez 7y ago
What paint is hard to wash off? You can remove most with acetone or paint thinner (mineral spirits).
- auslander 7y ago
  > Tip for protesters: paint cocktails. Bottles with hard to remove paint. I bet police will run out of uniforms quickly. They wont be seen on streets in painted suits and face shields. Dunno, but graffiti is a pain to wash off the walls.

riffic 7y ago

Direct action, as they say, gets the goods.

stevespang 7y ago

Bejing has already ordered tanks to roll, it is now just a matter of time.

euix 7y ago

If push comes to shove Beijing will kill the "not-so-golden-now goose". Especially now that Xi has effectively consolidated control over the coercive forces of the Chinese state. As long as the security and the army is with him it will work. Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is sent to govern directly. A lot of people said if Beijing cracked down in '89 that would be the end of the regime but that never happened. Obviously there are parallels and differences but overall I see Hong Kong as being at least one order of magnitude less severe than Beijing, then even some party official's kids were protesting and they got rolled over with tanks all the same. I can see where the protestors are coming from, for them, its like living in a world you increasingly don't understand and is alien. But at the same time, I think internally they have to know this protest is just an outward manifestation of fatalism, "shattering like a jewel". If I were a youth in Hong Kong, I either find a way to immigrate or find a way to integrate.

lacker 7y ago
Worse case the SAR region is dissolved and a party official is sent to govern directly. Nah, the worst case is that some of the protesters acquire nuclear weapons, threaten mainland China with them, Xi calls their bluff and moves in, it wasn't a bluff, Xi blames America, nuclear World War 3 starts. Or perhaps this peaceful protest gets quashed, and a violent insurrection that lasts decades begins. Beijing has a lot of places to hide IEDs. But it is possible that this dies down and Hong Kong peacefully submits to communism.

phantomathkg 7y ago

Don't believe in her word yet. Her word is "move a motion" when the Legislative Council resume in October, and the Security Minister, John Lee Ka-Chiu, submit the withdrawal to LegCo. At that point, the pro-Beijing LegCo member can reject such motion and continue the third reading of the bill and Beijing win. The other possibility is where we, the Hongkonger, continue demanding the rest of the four major demands, and CCP and Lam got so annoyed and trying to order a curfew. Again, this is not something any of us want.

y2kenny 7y ago
This is another fake move by Carrie Lam. A withdraw only requires a simple declaration and not a motion that require a vote. https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/ https://thestandnews.com/politics/林鄭連扮讓步都要違反程序-仲有面講法治/
- dbcurtis 7y ago
  Link is Chinese. Just FYI to other non-Chinese readers. What are the LegCo rules of procedure around this? Is there something we can read in English translation? Whether or not a motion is required seems a major point.
  - y2kenny 7y ago
    * Updated: Office of the Chief Executive just responded to media inquiry [4] and clarified that the withdraw will be an announcement not involving vote or debate per rule 64. (I haven't found an English copy yet.) Before update: Today's press release [1]: "The Secretary for Security will move a motion according to the Rules of Procedure when the Legislative Council resumes." The relevant official text of the above chinese link: Rule of Procedure of the Legislative Council (LegCo) 64(2) and (3)[2]: "(2) The Member or public officer in charge of a bill may, by an announcement made in Council at the beginning of proceedings for the resumption of the second reading debate on the bill, withdraw the bill if - (a) the purpose of the resumption is for making such an announcement; and (b) such purpose has been so stated in the notice of the resumption of debate given under Rule 54(5) (Second Reading). (L.N. 74 of 2005) (3) The Member or public officer in charge of a bill may, in making an announcement for the withdrawal of the bill under subrule (2), address the Council on matters relevant to the withdrawal but no debate may arise on such an address. (L.N. 74 of 2005)" So no motion/debate/vote is needed. People are saying the Article 23/national security bill in 2003 was withdrawn by simple gazetting, without any motion or debate. This is the equivalent press back then [3]. [1] https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666p.htm https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201909/04/P2019090400666... [2] https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/partk.htm#64 https://www.legco.gov.hk/general/english/procedur/content/pa... [3] https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200309/05/0905155.htm [4] https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.htm https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1478843-20190905.h...

andy_bandy 7y ago

Back to kidnapping people off the streets I guess. More friction but gets the job done.

president 7y ago

Anyone able to share how this is being framed in the Chinese media?

daneel_w 7y ago

Carrie Lam has not withdrawn the law proposal. She has begun a motion that will look into IF the proposal is going to be withdrawn. This is a world of difference. Additionally, from what can be read in various updates from the protesters, the person who will be tasked with the "looking-into" will be a Hong Kong government official, and the public will not be invited for enquiry.