58 ms·

A Walk in Hong Kong

748 points by haasted 7y ago

odiroot 7y ago
> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” They edge away. Funnily enough, myself being Polish, I found HK climate much more preferable than the Central European. I dread every end of summer; every winter kills my energy and work performance a bit more.
- throwaway1997 7y ago
  Even us locals suffer during the summer. It easily reached 35C with up to 90% humidity.
  - odiroot 7y ago
    Yes I understand, peak summer is very sweaty. For me it's still nicer that freezing off and having to wear 4 different layers to survive.
ETHisso2017 7y ago
Hmm. I wonder how the protesters know who to trust in their Telegram groups and on LIHKG. There has to be a core of organizers, however anonymous they may appear to be. Is there a way to track metadata exhaust from telegram for building a social graph or xss lihkg? Could be a way to ID them.
- _petronius 7y ago
  This is some serious “too interested in seeing if you could, and not stopping to wonder if you should” content. What possible positives are there in exploring how to de-anonymize people whose life and freedom requires anonymity, and who are fighting the good fight?
  - mskvsk 7y ago
    Telling those people how to improve their privacy before Beijing did this.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      Slightly tangential since you're specifically discussing communication but I've noticed that the term "privacy" is often getting incorrectly used when discussing surveillance tech (e.g. face recognition). There is no expectation of privacy in a public place. But an important right in a free society is the right to anonymity. A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing. But you should have the right to remain anonymous as long as you do not breach the law. That's what called into question these days with e.g. automatic facial recognition.
      - germanier 7y ago
        > A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing. Only people physically there can see me and what I am doing. Modern technology enables them to record that and share it globally and across time. It's important to recognize that this ability is not inherent in it being a public place. "Expectation of privacy" and that you can't have it in a public street is a US-centric concept. Other societies draw the line differently.
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        Expectation of privacy in public places has never been a concept anywhere. Privacy and public space are simply contradicting terms.
        CogitoCogito 7y ago
        You're referencing old ideas of public and private life that made sense at a time. Those ideas did not form in a time with ubiquitous surveillance. The ideas may have made sense before in their historical context, but that doesn't mean they make sense today. How about instead you ask yourself why those ideas grew out of that older historical context and whether the same reasoning would apply today? Why not re-read this and think about what germanier means: > Only people physically there can see me and what I am doing. Modern technology enables them to record that and share it globally and across time. It's important to recognize that this ability is not inherent in it being a public place. [ Quote from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20713153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20713153 ]
- PikachuEXE 7y ago
  Judge by speech AND actions Also keep a clear mine and use independent thinking Put faith in actions not a person/group
- kerng 7y ago
  When nearly half the population participates, I dont think you need much ID'ing.
  - woutr_be 7y ago
    There's over 7 million people in HK, at the largest protest, they estimated around 2 million took part, so not even half. During most protests, that number is significantly lower.
    - throwaway1997 7y ago
      2 million turned up. Now how many support the protests and were unable to/didn't want to turn up to protests? Many people are very old, work on Sundays, wouldn't be allowed by their parents (people typically live with their parents into their thirties here). You can probably double that figure.
      - loyukfai 7y ago
        One also needs to consider that the HK people are traditionally apolitical. So the 2m figure really sent a huge shockwave across the board. And only then, the government started to realise that they have screwed up badly.
    - idlewords 7y ago
      Two million out of seven is nearly half. You have to account for the kids, sick, infirm, etc. It's a mind-boggling proportion of the population to have in a single march.
      - woutr_be 7y ago
        Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely massive. But 28% isn't half, or even nearly half the population. of course a lot of people didn't go out, but still supported the protestors.
- WilTimSon 7y ago
  I can't find the proper link right now but there was a case of a "journalist" with no press pass going around the HK airport when it was occupied by the protesters. He took people's photos without permission, tried to quickly get info out of others, etc. It's referenced in passing here, it seems: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/14/hong-kong-flights-resume-at-airport-after-clashes-between-protesters-and-police https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/14/hong-kong-flig... I'd wager it's the same in their group chats. Someone's talking too much and seems too eager to find out details or incite violence? That's very suspicious. I don't think the mainland forces are trained for infiltration of this kind so they're messing up a fair bit.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  LIHKG's resilience in the current crisis is truly remarkable. That being said, it's not politically-oriented at all beforehand... it's something like the Reddit or 4chan of HK whereas most people just "shit-post" most of the time.
prawn 7y ago
One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one street, just taking it all in (up to exciting but short of dangerous!), when suddenly masked protesters came running towards us, gas clouds and popping sounds behind them. We ducked first into the alcove doorway of a restaurant and then sheltered inside at the bar for the evening eating tapas. Within the restaurant, fairly normal dining. Across the road, police with shields dealing with rioters and damaged property.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  I live in HK, and frankly, it's quite strange. I remember having a drink with a friend, while watching the violence unfold live on TV, it felt quite surreal. I live close to Victoria Park, where most of the large demonstrations have started from, I've seen them pass right down my street as well. All of this happening while I just go on with my life.
- sammorrowdrums 7y ago
  I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all conflict is highly localised at any given moment. I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international forces were live firing mere miles away. Even soldiers cannot sustain a continuous battle. Wars are a collection of separate battles with a shared end goal.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > were live firing mere miles away More like metres away.
  - empath75 7y ago
    People went out to picnic on the hills to watch one of the first battles of the Civil War in Virginia.
Aeolun 7y ago
This has probably given me more insight in the protests than any news article I’ve read so far. Why is it so hard to find a decent source for what is happening?
- Joakal 7y ago
  What do you mean by decent source for what is happening? There's plenty of sources, including video. Do you mean live news? There's Reddit, Guardian and more. Some links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extraditio... https://www.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5 https://www.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5 China Uncensored or Nathan Rich on Youtube if you want to see polarising opinions on Hong Kong (or China). But at least with either, you can check related videos. Also, beware of Wumao.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    I mean that, over the past week, the information I’ve gotten from news articles was basically: - The protests are still ongoing - A lady was shot in the eye - The airport was not functioning - There was a fight in the airport. It could be argued that these points are indeed news, but the whole weeks reporting has been reiterating this same information, and the human angle in those articles is completely lost. I don’t know, I just feel the news I read should be more in some intangible way.
- kzzzznot 7y ago
  https://www.hongkongfp.com/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/ Is a decent (non-CCP controlled/influenced/whatever source)
- avip 7y ago
  Because people like Idlewords are rare. And even once they exist, they don’t get the exposure they deserve.
- hrktb 7y ago
  Fundamentally it is not what western media think as “news”. It is long, ultra detailed, first person, and doesn’t cover the central point covered by other news outlets. If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc. We had that with french protests, standard news covering was cut so it was very digestible and non thought provoking (ton of focus on politics, the fights, injuries and non participant’s reactions to the events), it felt like most places removed bits that could be too interesting. We need both obviously, and I also share your view that more often than not when big event occurs the news coverage doesn’t help much to give us a grip about what’s actually happening.
albertzeyer 7y ago
This is the first time I hear about the term "zeroth world". A quick Google search did bring up some results, but not much. Wikipedia does not seem to cover that. Of course it covers 1st/2nd/3rd world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_model, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World). The terms "developed", "developing", and "underdeveloped" are somewhat analogue to that (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country). There is also the term fourth world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World). Putting countries (or cities) into these categories is hard of course (and maybe does not make sense). It seems that the term zeroth world naturally is used to say that such countries/cities are more developed than the first world. More specifically, more developed than USA. Countries/cities like Taipei, Singapore (in this article) or Norway (http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-zeroth-world/ http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-zeroth-...) are such examples (you probably can add some more to that list, e.g. Switzerland). Other articles (https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-regressing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-r...) argue that we maybe can just downgrade USA to a developing country (i.e. like 2nd world).
- OkGoDoIt 7y ago
  I think he uses the term creatively, it’s not a standard term I’ve seen elsewhere. Having spent a decent amount of time in both mainland China and Hong Kong, and living in San Francisco and previously elsewhere in the USA, I can definitely relate. So many things about China feel much more modern than the USA. I get better cell phone service on top of remote mountains in China than I do at my home in downtown San Francisco. Public transit is light years better there as well. Certainly there are things that are worse in China, the main one being air quality, but often coming back to the USA after an extended trip in China or Hong Kong is quite disappointing as I reacclimate to our crappy infrastructure.
  - 7y ago
abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago
Fu Guohao was severely beaten by black shirt protesters at the airport for allegedly being a mainland spy and a police plant. Why did the protesters do that? Why did they take away his freedoms? Why do these current narratives gloss over that fact? You can accuse me of whataboutism, and I can accuse you of indulging in propaganda. I can't imagine getting away with shining a laser in a police officer's eyes, let alone slinging bricks or molotov cocktails. The HK police are arguably kind.
- smcl 7y ago
  This comment is by a green-name account, isn't responding to anyone in particular and has that online-commenter-army feel to it. Genuine question for HN: what's the right term for this sort of comment, or commenter?
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    If political submissions are accepted then we should also accept comments expressing opposite and contradicting views on the issue instead of trying to suppress them by labeling them as "bots", "online-commenter-army", etc.
    - smcl 7y ago
      Yes we should be able to have a discussion, but I'd ask you to read the article and then read the comment. Does the comment look like it is responding to the article, or attempting to open a dialogue with the other side ... or does it look like a generic attempt at point scoring for the "pro-mainland" side? If "abcdefghijklmn3" is really keen to engage with the HN community then I take back what I said. But we both know that the chances are pretty good that this person isn't into that.
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        In my view it is responding to the article because that article is extremely pro-protesters and that comment expresses the opinion that this isn't so black and white. Engage with the point made instead of discarding the comment as "invalid", or just ignore the comment if you don't want to engage.
spyckie2 7y ago
This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The people here have a heart to fight for their own identity and for their well-being. It's actually really amazing especially with the immense challenges facing them and the great risks they have as a people. At the same time, when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution. Most of the time it turns towards silence (separating, parting ways, or just pretending it never happened), violence (intense arguments, passive aggressive pay back, hatred and villainfication of both sides leading to all out war), or just a lot of stiffness / unwillingness to compromise, understand the other side or reach a deal. This reflection is not just about the protests, although the escalation is due to the culture being this way. It happens everywhere, the biggest pet peeve of mine is that it's a normal, accepted practice. For instance, if you don't like your boss, you don't say anything, you just hold it in and then you send in your resignation. I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It takes a lot of practice on both sides to do it.
- lawrenceyan 7y ago
  Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in certain areas. I’ve always been personally curious as to what the causes of these divergences in culture between different societies are. There must be some inciting reason that such a stark difference in communication exists.
  - Joakal 7y ago
    Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for that matter).
hos234 7y ago
> The protesters learned in 2014 that having leaders was a weakness. Once the leadership was arrested, the heart went out of the occupy movement, and it lost momentum. So in 2019, there is no leadership at all. This part seems a little naive to me. Protests that have produced outcomes (in atleast a power shift) have all had Leaders and new political parties forming. Whether in India after the anticorruption/gangrape protests in 2013-14, Greece economic crisis in 2008, Right wing rise all across Europe thanks to the immigration issues. All these movements have had leaders who got arrested multiple times.
wgx 7y ago
Pastebin copy: https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u
- jf 7y ago
  Internet Archive copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords...
avip 7y ago
Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  They seem to have spared private property, but windows were broken, city infrastructure was damaged (e.g. LegCo, police stations), and police were beaten up. It's like in all countries. Some protests/protesters are peaceful, some are not.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    Ehm, our Swedish rioters usually break all windows once getting started
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    The edgy protesters are specifically targetting the government, the police who is acting on behalf of the government, and sometimes things associated with the CCP/PRC (e.g. PRC flag). Some of their actions have caused trouble for others, but in general, they are not interested in pure destruction. Of course there are exception cases, I'm speaking of the situation generally.
- nathanyukai 7y ago
  In the Chinese media the violent part of the protest is what they mostly talks about, although I do believe most protestors are peaceful. Funny enough most western media don't talk about that at all, despite that they broke into the legislative assembley and beaten people from mainland China, and HK police of course. Isn't media great these days
  - ekc 7y ago
    Ignoring that police shot a medical volunteer's eye out.
    - 7y ago
nbevans 7y ago
"All that prelude is to say, coming in to the Hong Kong protests from a less developed country like the United States is disorienting." This sentence got me hooked. It must be so alien to the average American that there are more developed countries/cities out there.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  I wouldn't put Honk Kong in that list though as much as I like the people and the city. I've been a few times and the infrastructure looks like it's falling apart. Electricity wires are hanging haphazardly, alleyways are dirty, and most facades of buildings are straight out of the third-world. The contrast between high-end boutiques interspaced with tiny mom-and-pop shops selling second hand stuff is a little surreal.
  - terryf 7y ago
    What you described is the exact impression I got when I first travelled to New York :) "Is it supposed to be this dirty?"
    - baby 7y ago
      Come visit downtown San Francisco :D
      - terryf 7y ago
        I go fairly frequently these days and am not surprised by much any more ;)
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
  More developed mostly means ‘newer.’ These places will also have to figure out what it means to keep infrastructure refreshed in 50 years. It is always a struggle..
  - athrowayyyy 7y ago
hrktb 7y ago
> The MTR is the one technology the Hong Kong protests could not do without, an autonomous fiefdom that the police mostly stay out of. It is neutral territory This is a godsend. During Paris protest earlier this year the gov would just shut down public transports for about 5~10 km around and block main accesses so people couldn’t massively join the protests. At least the mainland gov. didn’t get to touch that I guess.
- abcd_f 7y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking. China can simply shut down the public transport system next time and that will do it. No violence, no tear gas.
  - EliRivers 7y ago
    At that point, have they done the protestors' job for them? That would cause massive disruption and would make the authorities savagely unpopular. Maybe if they'd done that at the start, they could have blamed the protestors for making it necessary, but by now, everyone has seen that it's perfectly possible to run the MTR alongside the protests and would blame the authorities for unnecessarily shutting it down.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  Some stations have been shutdown several times in the past few weeks, I'm not sure if it was on the request of the police, or the MTR just decided to skip stations. However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Last week the HK police decided to fire tear gas within a station as well.
  - hrktb 7y ago
    > However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Yes, and it's legitimate from a business point of view. But then, if the police wanted to shut down these stations, causing violences/attacks would also be a way to push MTR's hand (they've already hired mobs to stir the protests, trashing stations for strategic advantage wouldn't be out of character)
unityByFreedom 7y ago
HK has come quite far, but if they can't stage peaceful protests without fear of reprisal from Beijing, then the brightest will still flee to the US. This blog post's point seems to be, he had culture shock when he moved to the US as a child, and experienced it again when visiting HK because he feels it is more advanced than the US. > Not everyone lives in a luxury hotel, man! I get it. But my eyes are like saucers. I ask forgiveness of Hong Kongers if at times I am still that six year old kid, dazzled by what to you is ordinary. You live in a kind of city we Americans can only aspire to, and it’s no wonder you love your home so much you will take any risk to save it.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  I believe quite clear that they can stage peaceful protests. Peaceful protests have never been prevented in Hongkong.
  - unityByFreedom 7y ago
    Perhaps you are unaware, China has produced videos of military units gathering near the border of HK. China is making very visible threats to peace. edit next reply below.. "Let's not pretend" - are you copying my language from another comment? weird or a coincidence. Anyway we don't see eye to eye on this. In my view, Beijing's obstinance is causing all kinds of trouble in HK, for both the HK police and the general population. This could all be resolved swiftly by simply retracting the extradition bill. The longer the disagreement continues, the more likely more people in China have a chance to hear both sides of the story. I expect that is a scarier prospect for Beijing than they would like to admit.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      This is not a response to "peaceful protests", which are common in Hongkong without any problem, including on very sensitive issues (e.g. the annual gathering to commemorate the 1989 protests on Tiananmen Square). Let's not pretend that what has been happening are just peaceful protests: There has also been violence, ransacking of the LegCo, and blockade of the airport. Any of which would not have been accepted anywhere. Protesters have won on the extradition bill. It's effectively gone. Now they have just made sure that the mainland's public opinion rally against them and behind the central government. That has been a strategic mistake, IMHO.
TASMebWdhWc9NeA 7y ago
I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way is the right way, or that the western culture is the one to accept. They just say that they are different, and that of course a shift in culture is difficult for Hong Kongers. They think it will all pan out somehow: Hong Kong has to accept that they are Chinese now, and accept all the consequences that come with that. I understand that the viewpoint of hn, a very USA oriented site, is different, and that most people here think that the libery of HK people should not be taken away from them because democracy is the only way, but I think the chinese point of view should be heard as well, and should be taken into consideration to get a better understanding of everything that is happening. My personal opinion on this is that China should just let them keep their autonomy, and let them be Hong Kong: a state by it's own with it's own rules and laws.
- spectramax 7y ago
  Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals. X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any kind of investigative journalism especially against the government, your social score goes down if you buy a particular book, you cannot sue the government or even think about it, punishment can include selling your organs for arbitrary reasons, the list goes on and on. If X were an impoverished country like Somalia, the tune would change and most people would condemn such a society. I want to do so fearlessly but sometimes people see it as an attack against the Chinese people. I’ve been to China and have spent many months there, made lifelong relations, etc. I have no room for any concession or bargain for the argument that authoritarian rule has benefits - yes it does but at aforementioned costs. China has risen above due to government’s iron grip over every aspect of the country. It is doing so at a cost. Fundamentals don’t change even if one sees the strategy panning out. An eagle in the world of doves can kill a lot of doves and have short term evolutionary imbalance. But soon, the marginal cost of turning into an eagle is so small so there are new eagles popping up in the population all of a sudden. This balance oscillates in the short term, but evolutionary pressure returns it back to an equilibrium. Fundamentals of eagle and dove dynamics don’t change even though the state of this system shows “success”. I’m in the position to criticize any authoritarian regimes in the strongest way possible - be it China or any other country, it doesn’t matter. I don’t want to die seeing this world turn into a power grab for a few with a consequence of a dystopian society. I wish the next superpower would be a country such as Norway or Sweden, it would set such a utopian example for the world to move into the right direction.
ejefz 7y ago
idlewords... this won't have any liberal bias at all.
- idlewords 7y ago
  What would be the more conservative take here?
  - abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago
    Blocking roads hurts small businesses more. Large businesses are more likely to be opportunistic; why would they care?
    - idlewords 7y ago
      Okay, but the other side are literally communists...
      - abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago
        They are state capitalists. China's communism was replaced when Mao Zedong died and Deng Xiaoping reformed the economy. They still call themselves communists, but they are opportunists. Over the past 200 years or so, China has been schooled in political pragmatism.
bubblegum 7y ago
Everyone is a sacrifice of ideology, it's easy to merge into one ideology then see the surface and judge the other, but if you look from the outside of ideologies, things could be much complicated than it seems to be. I am Chinese people in Shanghai, and not happy about the status of democracy/free speech/privacy either. But I feel like things are improving, by the progress of economical development, but this is not my point, just feel some observations of the current China is biased. My point is, The protest in HK is trying to stimulate Beijing to make an action, which will be a disaster for all people, except the politicians from the western world would love to see it, and some protester love to see it because that will prove China is evil. The reason Beijing must take action is because the building is too tall to fall, just like US must send troops to Iraq, the ideology must prove itself is righteous.
dade_ 7y ago
The Hong Kong government/China have been completely inept at managing the housing situation and it is nearly at a breaking point. It is refreshing to read an article on the current situation that raises the issue. 'One of the deeper causes of the present crisis of legitimacy is the housing crisis in Hong Kong, another way in which the government has failed the people it is meant to represent, and you can see it in the extraordinary density of apartment buildings, each unit pock-marked with an air conditioner, tiny living spaces with some of the highest rents in the world.'
- mback00 7y ago
  But this is how the Hong Kong government has traditionally made its money. Hong Kong’s tax structure is real-estate sales. This is why Hong Kong is all about huge sky rise developments of ultra-small apartments... and because the island is all hills, it is also why so many developments are built literally on a cliff. Hong Kong is a geographically difficult place... building new plots is expensive - and the government makes it more expensive.
Voxoff 7y ago
Jesus. An amazing piece. Thanks
k3liutZu 7y ago
> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” I chuckled more then I should as an east-european myself. If it's hot I do sweat a LOT.
aboodman 7y ago
Maciej, this is amazing. thank you for posting it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- idlewords 7y ago
  Thank you!
mback00 7y ago
This is the most beautiful and tragic thing I have read all day. Is there a reputable place to donate?
hoseja 7y ago
Whips in the soul.
wazoox 7y ago
> The protesters learned in 2014 that having leaders was a weakness. Once the leadership was arrested, the heart went out of the occupy movement, and it lost momentum. So in 2019, there is no leadership at all. Another thing that's similar with the (still ongoing) Yellow Vests in France.
brendanw 7y ago
A few years ago a Chinese man on the BART tried asking me for directions. His english was poor. With the aid of google translate we were able to do some basic communication. Over the course of 10 minutes I learned he was trying to visit the Wikipedia headquarters. I mentioned I was surprised he could access Wikipedia in the mainland. He told me that many know how to access Wikipedia. Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil political ideology that the people of China are subjected to.
- ausbah 7y ago
  The tragedy is things like sanctions against authoritarian regimes do nothing but to hurt the average citizen. The we'll connected in such regimes have the means to evade sanction, the lower classes don't. Look at Iran, North Korea, and other countries the US has sanctioned to kingdom come - there isn't nearly as much pressure as there would be in a western state.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  There's honestly quite a lot of misinformation about how people live their lives in China. Many of my friends are perfectly capable of accessing blocked websites, and they're by no means computer experts. They all have been able to travel because of their increase in wealth, and most of them are in contact with foreigners from all over the world. To them, they live in a society with restrictions, but they've all benefited immensely from it in the past decades.
  - spectramax 7y ago
    This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about - GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it using potentially illegal means (VPN in this case) is irrelevant. The government can arrest you for this reason alone.
    - deleted 7y ago
kawera 7y ago
"This sounds like it shouldn’t possibly work, but the protesters are too young to know that it can’t work, so it works." Brilliant !
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zensavona 7y ago
If anyone is interested, I actually happened to be in Hong Kong and attend the first wave of protests and took some photos: https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong
dmix 7y ago
It's interesting how food is always the most in demand and lowest supply commodity in socialist countries (or more accurately lowest variety selection since they can barely produce enough staple foods, so they shut down the production of nice things limiting the local cultures ability to express themselves and enjoy food). You see it happening repeatedly even today in Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea, and historically in China and Russia. You'd think farming would be something they could do right since they are obsessed with those types of workers, who are their bread-and-butter. But I guess it has more to do with the price controls (probably the worst way to make something 'cheaper') and inefficiencies in the centralized organizations who think they can plan this stuff. The typical excuse used by socialists re: Soviet Russia was they were exporting food for guns (because evil America), but that doesn't equally to all of the socialists examples in history and is far more likely a direct result of their economic system.
SCHiM 7y ago
Is anyone in Hong Kong proactively setting up communication channels to the outside in case the military cracks down? In a worst case scenario it'd be good to have reliable high-bandwidth communication channels to the outside world. The time to establish them has past I think, but there might still be some quick-wins to make. They will shut down and disrupt all normal communications the moment their operations begin.
ohiovr 7y ago
Looks like a kind of mass mania.
muricula 7y ago
Judging by the comments here I wonder how many people on HN have actually been to many protests, even small ones. If there's a cause you support, local or global, there may be demonstrations in your city. Get out there and make a difference!
andredz 7y ago
> I catch the briefest glimpse of a woman with no protective gear, dressed normally, who is weaving her way upstream through the escaping demonstrators with a placid smile on her face. I liked the prose in this piece; it felt like a novel. And as someone commented before, I felt myself immersed in the story.
La-ang 7y ago
Amazing writing style. I felt walking Hong Kong and every emotion that ought to be felt there. [Trains are now running every seven minutes, instead of very two, and MTR regrets the inconvenience.] Ah the New York Subway :/
ngcc_hk 7y ago
Except for 21 Jun and 11 Aug I join every protest I can made to. It is exhausting to fight a gov that do not listen because its power is from a colonial power on the north. Hk is in the forefront of the things to come. Look at Austria you know what the bully will do.
cristinabunea 7y ago
You can listen to this article here: https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060 https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060

748 points by haasted 7y ago

> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” They edge away. Funnily enough, myself being Polish, I found HK climate much more preferable than the Central European. I dread every end of summer; every winter kills my energy and work performance a bit more.

throwaway1997 7y ago
Even us locals suffer during the summer. It easily reached 35C with up to 90% humidity.
- odiroot 7y ago
  Yes I understand, peak summer is very sweaty. For me it's still nicer that freezing off and having to wear 4 different layers to survive.

ETHisso2017 7y ago

Hmm. I wonder how the protesters know who to trust in their Telegram groups and on LIHKG. There has to be a core of organizers, however anonymous they may appear to be. Is there a way to track metadata exhaust from telegram for building a social graph or xss lihkg? Could be a way to ID them.

_petronius 7y ago
This is some serious “too interested in seeing if you could, and not stopping to wonder if you should” content. What possible positives are there in exploring how to de-anonymize people whose life and freedom requires anonymity, and who are fighting the good fight?
- mskvsk 7y ago
  Telling those people how to improve their privacy before Beijing did this.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    Slightly tangential since you're specifically discussing communication but I've noticed that the term "privacy" is often getting incorrectly used when discussing surveillance tech (e.g. face recognition). There is no expectation of privacy in a public place. But an important right in a free society is the right to anonymity. A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing. But you should have the right to remain anonymous as long as you do not breach the law. That's what called into question these days with e.g. automatic facial recognition.
    - germanier 7y ago
      > A street is not a private place and, as said, there is no expectation of privacy there: Anyone and everyone can see you and what you are doing. Only people physically there can see me and what I am doing. Modern technology enables them to record that and share it globally and across time. It's important to recognize that this ability is not inherent in it being a public place. "Expectation of privacy" and that you can't have it in a public street is a US-centric concept. Other societies draw the line differently.
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        Expectation of privacy in public places has never been a concept anywhere. Privacy and public space are simply contradicting terms.
        CogitoCogito 7y ago
        You're referencing old ideas of public and private life that made sense at a time. Those ideas did not form in a time with ubiquitous surveillance. The ideas may have made sense before in their historical context, but that doesn't mean they make sense today. How about instead you ask yourself why those ideas grew out of that older historical context and whether the same reasoning would apply today? Why not re-read this and think about what germanier means: > Only people physically there can see me and what I am doing. Modern technology enables them to record that and share it globally and across time. It's important to recognize that this ability is not inherent in it being a public place. [ Quote from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20713153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20713153 ]
PikachuEXE 7y ago
Judge by speech AND actions Also keep a clear mine and use independent thinking Put faith in actions not a person/group
kerng 7y ago
When nearly half the population participates, I dont think you need much ID'ing.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  There's over 7 million people in HK, at the largest protest, they estimated around 2 million took part, so not even half. During most protests, that number is significantly lower.
  - throwaway1997 7y ago
    2 million turned up. Now how many support the protests and were unable to/didn't want to turn up to protests? Many people are very old, work on Sundays, wouldn't be allowed by their parents (people typically live with their parents into their thirties here). You can probably double that figure.
    - loyukfai 7y ago
      One also needs to consider that the HK people are traditionally apolitical. So the 2m figure really sent a huge shockwave across the board. And only then, the government started to realise that they have screwed up badly.
  - idlewords 7y ago
    Two million out of seven is nearly half. You have to account for the kids, sick, infirm, etc. It's a mind-boggling proportion of the population to have in a single march.
    - woutr_be 7y ago
      Don't get me wrong, it was absolutely massive. But 28% isn't half, or even nearly half the population. of course a lot of people didn't go out, but still supported the protestors.
WilTimSon 7y ago
I can't find the proper link right now but there was a case of a "journalist" with no press pass going around the HK airport when it was occupied by the protesters. He took people's photos without permission, tried to quickly get info out of others, etc. It's referenced in passing here, it seems: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/14/hong-kong-flights-resume-at-airport-after-clashes-between-protesters-and-police https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/14/hong-kong-flig... I'd wager it's the same in their group chats. Someone's talking too much and seems too eager to find out details or incite violence? That's very suspicious. I don't think the mainland forces are trained for infiltration of this kind so they're messing up a fair bit.
loyukfai 7y ago
LIHKG's resilience in the current crisis is truly remarkable. That being said, it's not politically-oriented at all beforehand... it's something like the Reddit or 4chan of HK whereas most people just "shit-post" most of the time.

prawn 7y ago

One of Maciej's best IMO. Informative and very entertaining. I was struck in particular by: "I can’t get over the oddness of the situation. In one direction is bedlam, in the other complete normalcy, separated by a few hundred meters." In 2003, I was walking in Madrid one evening with my girlfriend when war protesters became engaged in some sort of battle with riot police. We had wandered amongst protesters up one street, just taking it all in (up to exciting but short of dangerous!), when suddenly masked protesters came running towards us, gas clouds and popping sounds behind them. We ducked first into the alcove doorway of a restaurant and then sheltered inside at the bar for the evening eating tapas. Within the restaurant, fairly normal dining. Across the road, police with shields dealing with rioters and damaged property.

woutr_be 7y ago
I live in HK, and frankly, it's quite strange. I remember having a drink with a friend, while watching the violence unfold live on TV, it felt quite surreal. I live close to Victoria Park, where most of the large demonstrations have started from, I've seen them pass right down my street as well. All of this happening while I just go on with my life.
sammorrowdrums 7y ago
I'm from Belfast. This is exactly the case. There is almost never total constant omnipresent conflict. Nor does it spread randomly. Almost all conflict is highly localised at any given moment. I imagine even during the war in Afghanistan there were plenty of farmers and families going about their busines while Taliban, local and international forces were live firing mere miles away. Even soldiers cannot sustain a continuous battle. Wars are a collection of separate battles with a shared end goal.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > were live firing mere miles away More like metres away.
- empath75 7y ago
  People went out to picnic on the hills to watch one of the first battles of the Civil War in Virginia.

Aeolun 7y ago

This has probably given me more insight in the protests than any news article I’ve read so far. Why is it so hard to find a decent source for what is happening?

Joakal 7y ago
What do you mean by decent source for what is happening? There's plenty of sources, including video. Do you mean live news? There's Reddit, Guardian and more. Some links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extraditio... https://www.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5 https://www.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5 China Uncensored or Nathan Rich on Youtube if you want to see polarising opinions on Hong Kong (or China). But at least with either, you can check related videos. Also, beware of Wumao.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I mean that, over the past week, the information I’ve gotten from news articles was basically: - The protests are still ongoing - A lady was shot in the eye - The airport was not functioning - There was a fight in the airport. It could be argued that these points are indeed news, but the whole weeks reporting has been reiterating this same information, and the human angle in those articles is completely lost. I don’t know, I just feel the news I read should be more in some intangible way.
kzzzznot 7y ago
https://www.hongkongfp.com/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/ Is a decent (non-CCP controlled/influenced/whatever source)
avip 7y ago
Because people like Idlewords are rare. And even once they exist, they don’t get the exposure they deserve.
hrktb 7y ago
Fundamentally it is not what western media think as “news”. It is long, ultra detailed, first person, and doesn’t cover the central point covered by other news outlets. If a NYT editor was reading this it would cut it down to a fifth of what it is, have it reexplain the 5 demands, give a clearer political positioning etc. We had that with french protests, standard news covering was cut so it was very digestible and non thought provoking (ton of focus on politics, the fights, injuries and non participant’s reactions to the events), it felt like most places removed bits that could be too interesting. We need both obviously, and I also share your view that more often than not when big event occurs the news coverage doesn’t help much to give us a grip about what’s actually happening.

albertzeyer 7y ago

This is the first time I hear about the term "zeroth world". A quick Google search did bring up some results, but not much. Wikipedia does not seem to cover that. Of course it covers 1st/2nd/3rd world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-world_model, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World). The terms "developed", "developing", and "underdeveloped" are somewhat analogue to that (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country). There is also the term fourth world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_World). Putting countries (or cities) into these categories is hard of course (and maybe does not make sense). It seems that the term zeroth world naturally is used to say that such countries/cities are more developed than the first world. More specifically, more developed than USA. Countries/cities like Taipei, Singapore (in this article) or Norway (http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-zeroth-world/ http://www.chaosnode.net/blog/2018/06/17/life-in-the-zeroth-...) are such examples (you probably can add some more to that list, e.g. Switzerland). Other articles (https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-regressing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-r...) argue that we maybe can just downgrade USA to a developing country (i.e. like 2nd world).

OkGoDoIt 7y ago
I think he uses the term creatively, it’s not a standard term I’ve seen elsewhere. Having spent a decent amount of time in both mainland China and Hong Kong, and living in San Francisco and previously elsewhere in the USA, I can definitely relate. So many things about China feel much more modern than the USA. I get better cell phone service on top of remote mountains in China than I do at my home in downtown San Francisco. Public transit is light years better there as well. Certainly there are things that are worse in China, the main one being air quality, but often coming back to the USA after an extended trip in China or Hong Kong is quite disappointing as I reacclimate to our crappy infrastructure.
- 7y ago

abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago

Fu Guohao was severely beaten by black shirt protesters at the airport for allegedly being a mainland spy and a police plant. Why did the protesters do that? Why did they take away his freedoms? Why do these current narratives gloss over that fact? You can accuse me of whataboutism, and I can accuse you of indulging in propaganda. I can't imagine getting away with shining a laser in a police officer's eyes, let alone slinging bricks or molotov cocktails. The HK police are arguably kind.

smcl 7y ago
This comment is by a green-name account, isn't responding to anyone in particular and has that online-commenter-army feel to it. Genuine question for HN: what's the right term for this sort of comment, or commenter?
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  If political submissions are accepted then we should also accept comments expressing opposite and contradicting views on the issue instead of trying to suppress them by labeling them as "bots", "online-commenter-army", etc.
  - smcl 7y ago
    Yes we should be able to have a discussion, but I'd ask you to read the article and then read the comment. Does the comment look like it is responding to the article, or attempting to open a dialogue with the other side ... or does it look like a generic attempt at point scoring for the "pro-mainland" side? If "abcdefghijklmn3" is really keen to engage with the HN community then I take back what I said. But we both know that the chances are pretty good that this person isn't into that.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      In my view it is responding to the article because that article is extremely pro-protesters and that comment expresses the opinion that this isn't so black and white. Engage with the point made instead of discarding the comment as "invalid", or just ignore the comment if you don't want to engage.

spyckie2 7y ago

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The people here have a heart to fight for their own identity and for their well-being. It's actually really amazing especially with the immense challenges facing them and the great risks they have as a people. At the same time, when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution. Most of the time it turns towards silence (separating, parting ways, or just pretending it never happened), violence (intense arguments, passive aggressive pay back, hatred and villainfication of both sides leading to all out war), or just a lot of stiffness / unwillingness to compromise, understand the other side or reach a deal. This reflection is not just about the protests, although the escalation is due to the culture being this way. It happens everywhere, the biggest pet peeve of mine is that it's a normal, accepted practice. For instance, if you don't like your boss, you don't say anything, you just hold it in and then you send in your resignation. I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It takes a lot of practice on both sides to do it.

lawrenceyan 7y ago
Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in certain areas. I’ve always been personally curious as to what the causes of these divergences in culture between different societies are. There must be some inciting reason that such a stark difference in communication exists.
- Joakal 7y ago
  Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for that matter).

hos234 7y ago

> The protesters learned in 2014 that having leaders was a weakness. Once the leadership was arrested, the heart went out of the occupy movement, and it lost momentum. So in 2019, there is no leadership at all. This part seems a little naive to me. Protests that have produced outcomes (in atleast a power shift) have all had Leaders and new political parties forming. Whether in India after the anticorruption/gangrape protests in 2013-14, Greece economic crisis in 2008, Right wing rise all across Europe thanks to the immigration issues. All these movements have had leaders who got arrested multiple times.

wgx 7y ago

Pastebin copy: https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u https://pastebin.com/gsiAqu4u

jf 7y ago
Internet Archive copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords.com/2019/08/a_walk_in_hong_kong.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20190816070112/https://idlewords...

avip 7y ago

Interesting to contrast this with popular demonstrations in US or France. No windows broken? Burnt city infrastructure? No beaten up police? All so quiet.

mytailorisrich 7y ago
They seem to have spared private property, but windows were broken, city infrastructure was damaged (e.g. LegCo, police stations), and police were beaten up. It's like in all countries. Some protests/protesters are peaceful, some are not.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Ehm, our Swedish rioters usually break all windows once getting started
- loyukfai 7y ago
  The edgy protesters are specifically targetting the government, the police who is acting on behalf of the government, and sometimes things associated with the CCP/PRC (e.g. PRC flag). Some of their actions have caused trouble for others, but in general, they are not interested in pure destruction. Of course there are exception cases, I'm speaking of the situation generally.
nathanyukai 7y ago
In the Chinese media the violent part of the protest is what they mostly talks about, although I do believe most protestors are peaceful. Funny enough most western media don't talk about that at all, despite that they broke into the legislative assembley and beaten people from mainland China, and HK police of course. Isn't media great these days
- ekc 7y ago
  Ignoring that police shot a medical volunteer's eye out.
  - 7y ago

nbevans 7y ago

"All that prelude is to say, coming in to the Hong Kong protests from a less developed country like the United States is disorienting." This sentence got me hooked. It must be so alien to the average American that there are more developed countries/cities out there.

macspoofing 7y ago
I wouldn't put Honk Kong in that list though as much as I like the people and the city. I've been a few times and the infrastructure looks like it's falling apart. Electricity wires are hanging haphazardly, alleyways are dirty, and most facades of buildings are straight out of the third-world. The contrast between high-end boutiques interspaced with tiny mom-and-pop shops selling second hand stuff is a little surreal.
- terryf 7y ago
  What you described is the exact impression I got when I first travelled to New York :) "Is it supposed to be this dirty?"
  - baby 7y ago
    Come visit downtown San Francisco :D
    - terryf 7y ago
      I go fairly frequently these days and am not surprised by much any more ;)
mensetmanusman 7y ago
More developed mostly means ‘newer.’ These places will also have to figure out what it means to keep infrastructure refreshed in 50 years. It is always a struggle..
- athrowayyyy 7y ago

hrktb 7y ago

> The MTR is the one technology the Hong Kong protests could not do without, an autonomous fiefdom that the police mostly stay out of. It is neutral territory This is a godsend. During Paris protest earlier this year the gov would just shut down public transports for about 5~10 km around and block main accesses so people couldn’t massively join the protests. At least the mainland gov. didn’t get to touch that I guess.

abcd_f 7y ago
Exactly what I was thinking. China can simply shut down the public transport system next time and that will do it. No violence, no tear gas.
- EliRivers 7y ago
  At that point, have they done the protestors' job for them? That would cause massive disruption and would make the authorities savagely unpopular. Maybe if they'd done that at the start, they could have blamed the protestors for making it necessary, but by now, everyone has seen that it's perfectly possible to run the MTR alongside the protests and would blame the authorities for unnecessarily shutting it down.
woutr_be 7y ago
Some stations have been shutdown several times in the past few weeks, I'm not sure if it was on the request of the police, or the MTR just decided to skip stations. However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Last week the HK police decided to fire tear gas within a station as well.
- hrktb 7y ago
  > However, this wasn't due to people going to protests, this was due to increased violence, and even attacks inside the stations. Yes, and it's legitimate from a business point of view. But then, if the police wanted to shut down these stations, causing violences/attacks would also be a way to push MTR's hand (they've already hired mobs to stir the protests, trashing stations for strategic advantage wouldn't be out of character)

unityByFreedom 7y ago

HK has come quite far, but if they can't stage peaceful protests without fear of reprisal from Beijing, then the brightest will still flee to the US. This blog post's point seems to be, he had culture shock when he moved to the US as a child, and experienced it again when visiting HK because he feels it is more advanced than the US. > Not everyone lives in a luxury hotel, man! I get it. But my eyes are like saucers. I ask forgiveness of Hong Kongers if at times I am still that six year old kid, dazzled by what to you is ordinary. You live in a kind of city we Americans can only aspire to, and it’s no wonder you love your home so much you will take any risk to save it.

mytailorisrich 7y ago
I believe quite clear that they can stage peaceful protests. Peaceful protests have never been prevented in Hongkong.
- unityByFreedom 7y ago
  Perhaps you are unaware, China has produced videos of military units gathering near the border of HK. China is making very visible threats to peace. edit next reply below.. "Let's not pretend" - are you copying my language from another comment? weird or a coincidence. Anyway we don't see eye to eye on this. In my view, Beijing's obstinance is causing all kinds of trouble in HK, for both the HK police and the general population. This could all be resolved swiftly by simply retracting the extradition bill. The longer the disagreement continues, the more likely more people in China have a chance to hear both sides of the story. I expect that is a scarier prospect for Beijing than they would like to admit.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    This is not a response to "peaceful protests", which are common in Hongkong without any problem, including on very sensitive issues (e.g. the annual gathering to commemorate the 1989 protests on Tiananmen Square). Let's not pretend that what has been happening are just peaceful protests: There has also been violence, ransacking of the LegCo, and blockade of the airport. Any of which would not have been accepted anywhere. Protesters have won on the extradition bill. It's effectively gone. Now they have just made sure that the mainland's public opinion rally against them and behind the central government. That has been a strategic mistake, IMHO.

TASMebWdhWc9NeA 7y ago

I am in Verona (Italy) at this time, and I'm in a hotel where some tourists from Shanghai happen to be as well. I'm alone, so I hang out in the lobby a lot. I just engaged in some small talk with some of those tourists, and the discussion somehow shifted to the Hong Kong protests. Basically what they sad is that western culture in Hong Kong clashes with the chinese culture. They don't seem to say that the chinese way is the right way, or that the western culture is the one to accept. They just say that they are different, and that of course a shift in culture is difficult for Hong Kongers. They think it will all pan out somehow: Hong Kong has to accept that they are Chinese now, and accept all the consequences that come with that. I understand that the viewpoint of hn, a very USA oriented site, is different, and that most people here think that the libery of HK people should not be taken away from them because democracy is the only way, but I think the chinese point of view should be heard as well, and should be taken into consideration to get a better understanding of everything that is happening. My personal opinion on this is that China should just let them keep their autonomy, and let them be Hong Kong: a state by it's own with it's own rules and laws.

spectramax 7y ago
Let’s replace China with X so there is no xenophobic rebuttals. X is an authoritarian regime that has no rule of law, president has self declared perpetual status in the office, piracy is rampant, no respect for privacy of others, there is an app called ourchat that is effectively owned by the government and is increasing becoming a necessity, no media let alone any kind of investigative journalism especially against the government, your social score goes down if you buy a particular book, you cannot sue the government or even think about it, punishment can include selling your organs for arbitrary reasons, the list goes on and on. If X were an impoverished country like Somalia, the tune would change and most people would condemn such a society. I want to do so fearlessly but sometimes people see it as an attack against the Chinese people. I’ve been to China and have spent many months there, made lifelong relations, etc. I have no room for any concession or bargain for the argument that authoritarian rule has benefits - yes it does but at aforementioned costs. China has risen above due to government’s iron grip over every aspect of the country. It is doing so at a cost. Fundamentals don’t change even if one sees the strategy panning out. An eagle in the world of doves can kill a lot of doves and have short term evolutionary imbalance. But soon, the marginal cost of turning into an eagle is so small so there are new eagles popping up in the population all of a sudden. This balance oscillates in the short term, but evolutionary pressure returns it back to an equilibrium. Fundamentals of eagle and dove dynamics don’t change even though the state of this system shows “success”. I’m in the position to criticize any authoritarian regimes in the strongest way possible - be it China or any other country, it doesn’t matter. I don’t want to die seeing this world turn into a power grab for a few with a consequence of a dystopian society. I wish the next superpower would be a country such as Norway or Sweden, it would set such a utopian example for the world to move into the right direction.

ejefz 7y ago

idlewords... this won't have any liberal bias at all.

idlewords 7y ago
What would be the more conservative take here?
- abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago
  Blocking roads hurts small businesses more. Large businesses are more likely to be opportunistic; why would they care?
  - idlewords 7y ago
    Okay, but the other side are literally communists...
    - abcdefghijklmn3 7y ago
      They are state capitalists. China's communism was replaced when Mao Zedong died and Deng Xiaoping reformed the economy. They still call themselves communists, but they are opportunists. Over the past 200 years or so, China has been schooled in political pragmatism.

bubblegum 7y ago

Everyone is a sacrifice of ideology, it's easy to merge into one ideology then see the surface and judge the other, but if you look from the outside of ideologies, things could be much complicated than it seems to be. I am Chinese people in Shanghai, and not happy about the status of democracy/free speech/privacy either. But I feel like things are improving, by the progress of economical development, but this is not my point, just feel some observations of the current China is biased. My point is, The protest in HK is trying to stimulate Beijing to make an action, which will be a disaster for all people, except the politicians from the western world would love to see it, and some protester love to see it because that will prove China is evil. The reason Beijing must take action is because the building is too tall to fall, just like US must send troops to Iraq, the ideology must prove itself is righteous.

dade_ 7y ago

The Hong Kong government/China have been completely inept at managing the housing situation and it is nearly at a breaking point. It is refreshing to read an article on the current situation that raises the issue. 'One of the deeper causes of the present crisis of legitimacy is the housing crisis in Hong Kong, another way in which the government has failed the people it is meant to represent, and you can see it in the extraordinary density of apartment buildings, each unit pock-marked with an air conditioner, tiny living spaces with some of the highest rents in the world.'

mback00 7y ago
But this is how the Hong Kong government has traditionally made its money. Hong Kong’s tax structure is real-estate sales. This is why Hong Kong is all about huge sky rise developments of ultra-small apartments... and because the island is all hills, it is also why so many developments are built literally on a cliff. Hong Kong is a geographically difficult place... building new plots is expensive - and the government makes it more expensive.

Voxoff 7y ago

Jesus. An amazing piece. Thanks

k3liutZu 7y ago

> “It’s okay,” I tell them. “This is normal. I’m not dying—I’m Polish.” I chuckled more then I should as an east-european myself. If it's hot I do sweat a LOT.

aboodman 7y ago

Maciej, this is amazing. thank you for posting it.

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idlewords 7y ago
Thank you!

mback00 7y ago

This is the most beautiful and tragic thing I have read all day. Is there a reputable place to donate?

hoseja 7y ago

Whips in the soul.

wazoox 7y ago

brendanw 7y ago

A few years ago a Chinese man on the BART tried asking me for directions. His english was poor. With the aid of google translate we were able to do some basic communication. Over the course of 10 minutes I learned he was trying to visit the Wikipedia headquarters. I mentioned I was surprised he could access Wikipedia in the mainland. He told me that many know how to access Wikipedia. Let's be clear. Authoritarianism is not culture; it is an evil political ideology that the people of China are subjected to.

ausbah 7y ago
The tragedy is things like sanctions against authoritarian regimes do nothing but to hurt the average citizen. The we'll connected in such regimes have the means to evade sanction, the lower classes don't. Look at Iran, North Korea, and other countries the US has sanctioned to kingdom come - there isn't nearly as much pressure as there would be in a western state.
woutr_be 7y ago
There's honestly quite a lot of misinformation about how people live their lives in China. Many of my friends are perfectly capable of accessing blocked websites, and they're by no means computer experts. They all have been able to travel because of their increase in wealth, and most of them are in contact with foreigners from all over the world. To them, they live in a society with restrictions, but they've all benefited immensely from it in the past decades.
- spectramax 7y ago
  This is such an absurd reasoning. Just because people have circumvented the Great Fire Wall has no bearing on what the parent comment is talking about - GFW is the consequence of the evil things an authoritarian government is capable of doing (amongst other freedom of speech and press issues such as banning books, independent journalism, etc.) - whether people circumvent it using potentially illegal means (VPN in this case) is irrelevant. The government can arrest you for this reason alone.
  - deleted 7y ago

kawera 7y ago

"This sounds like it shouldn’t possibly work, but the protesters are too young to know that it can’t work, so it works." Brilliant !

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zensavona 7y ago

If anyone is interested, I actually happened to be in Hong Kong and attend the first wave of protests and took some photos: https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong https://500px.com/zensavona/galleries/hong-kong

dmix 7y ago

It's interesting how food is always the most in demand and lowest supply commodity in socialist countries (or more accurately lowest variety selection since they can barely produce enough staple foods, so they shut down the production of nice things limiting the local cultures ability to express themselves and enjoy food). You see it happening repeatedly even today in Venezuela, Cuba, and North Korea, and historically in China and Russia. You'd think farming would be something they could do right since they are obsessed with those types of workers, who are their bread-and-butter. But I guess it has more to do with the price controls (probably the worst way to make something 'cheaper') and inefficiencies in the centralized organizations who think they can plan this stuff. The typical excuse used by socialists re: Soviet Russia was they were exporting food for guns (because evil America), but that doesn't equally to all of the socialists examples in history and is far more likely a direct result of their economic system.

SCHiM 7y ago

Is anyone in Hong Kong proactively setting up communication channels to the outside in case the military cracks down? In a worst case scenario it'd be good to have reliable high-bandwidth communication channels to the outside world. The time to establish them has past I think, but there might still be some quick-wins to make. They will shut down and disrupt all normal communications the moment their operations begin.

ohiovr 7y ago

Looks like a kind of mass mania.

muricula 7y ago

Judging by the comments here I wonder how many people on HN have actually been to many protests, even small ones. If there's a cause you support, local or global, there may be demonstrations in your city. Get out there and make a difference!

andredz 7y ago

> I catch the briefest glimpse of a woman with no protective gear, dressed normally, who is weaving her way upstream through the escaping demonstrators with a placid smile on her face. I liked the prose in this piece; it felt like a novel. And as someone commented before, I felt myself immersed in the story.

La-ang 7y ago

Amazing writing style. I felt walking Hong Kong and every emotion that ought to be felt there. [Trains are now running every seven minutes, instead of very two, and MTR regrets the inconvenience.] Ah the New York Subway :/

ngcc_hk 7y ago

Except for 21 Jun and 11 Aug I join every protest I can made to. It is exhausting to fight a gov that do not listen because its power is from a colonial power on the north. Hk is in the forefront of the things to come. Look at Austria you know what the bully will do.

cristinabunea 7y ago

You can listen to this article here: https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060 https://www.listle.io/#/article/951265060