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Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders
- univalent 7y agoI took the ferry from Dublin to Wales while on vacation. We collected all our passports once the ferry docked and we went to our car preparing for the immigration officers, police etc. There was no one. Literally. We only saw sheep for the first 10 miles or so after driving off the boat.
- schoen 7y agoThat's due to the CTA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area).
- incompatible 7y agoAnother place where border checks will presumably be implemented if/when Brexit takes effect.
- cardiffspaceman 7y agoAlso: http://archive.is/MGHdz http://archive.is/MGHdz
- rgrieselhuber 7y agoThe border is the climate.
- dmix 7y ago+ Transport
- umeshunni 7y agoAnd the 1000 kilometers of sea that surrounds it.
- charliesharding 7y agoAlso the lack of social services
- tyingq 7y agoCurrently partly cloudy and 48°F/9°C. Though, yeah, I imagine most days aren't like that.
- Rebelgecko 7y agoThe 3 months of darkness is kind of a bummer
- TremendousJudge 7y agoAnd the roaming polar bears
- felixfurtak 7y agoIt does have really fast internet though. There is a dedicated submarine fiber cable servicing a population of only a couple of thousand people. https://submarine-cable-map-2018.telegeography.com/ https://submarine-cable-map-2018.telegeography.com/
- hanche 7y agoThere is a good reason for that: It is an ideal location for downlinking data from satellites in polar orbit. https://www.regjeringen.no/en/dokumenter/meld.-st.-32-20152016/id2499962/sec9#kap9-4-4 https://www.regjeringen.no/en/dokumenter/meld.-st.-32-201520... (Edit: But the article points that out.)
- cojxd 7y ago>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?
- jlangenauer 7y agoFor me. I'd love to see open borders, where everyone has the freedom to move to where they can achieve their goals and dreams, rather than being restricted to the country where they happened to be born. How many Einsteins have been born in Africa, but denied the chance to make the contribution to humanity that they could have? (And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true, and the path to open borders is a long one, not a sudden change we can make without massive upheaval right now.)
- temptemptemp111 7y agoYou're a hypocrite if you don't open borders into your home for the homeless, then.
- refurb 7y agoAnd before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.
- jazzyjackson 7y agoOP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.
- toinetoine 7y ago
- jiveturkey 7y ago> Svalbard’s geopolitics provide an imperfect but alternative vision of how places can be governed, whom they can accommodate, and how communities can form. Hardly. It's a rugged community of 2300 people. That's not a model for alternative government. > "This is not a cradle to grave society,” one of Askholt’s colleagues told me.
- dev_dull 7y agoNot only that but it provides no social services, so there’s no government cost or burden to immigration. Similar to how the US was in its early history but contrast to how the US and Europe is now.
- diminoten 7y agoIt is a myth that immigration creates a burden on the US government. I'm so sick of "two side"ism taking over every conversation. There is an opinion on this based in the weighing of all relevant facts, and there is an opinion about this based on the creative selection of only some facts. Decide for yourself, but what I've seen is that the full body of facts is much more supportive of the idea that immigrants are a net positive to the US than it is the opposite. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/are-immigrants-drain-government-resources/571582/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/are-immigr... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-ab... https://psmag.com/news/research-shows-immigrants-are-not-a-drain-on-us-resources https://psmag.com/news/research-shows-immigrants-are-not-a-d... https://www.vox.com/2019/2/6/18213888/trump-undocumented-immigrants-fact-check https://www.vox.com/2019/2/6/18213888/trump-undocumented-imm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_imm... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-10-30/immigrants-are-not-the-fiscal-burden-native-born-americans-are https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-10-30/immigr... https://immigrationforum.org/article/immigrants-as-economic-contributors-immigrant-tax-contributions-and-spending-power/ https://immigrationforum.org/article/immigrants-as-economic-... https://medium.com/s/story/the-bad-economics-used-to-target-immigrants-and-why-theyre-mostly-wrong-a808952839c6 https://medium.com/s/story/the-bad-economics-used-to-target-...
- nostrademons 7y agoAntarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice. There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable.
- TremendousJudge 7y ago>the places with the strictest border controls are often those that are quite desirable cheeky counterexample: North Korea
- layoutIfNeeded 7y agoNorth Korean border control is there to stop people from leaving, not entering.
- waterhouse 7y agoI presume it's also to keep out subversive foreign agents. And reporters. And people whose mere presence is suggestive of Western capitalism and therefore subversive. Something like that.
- longlivedeath 7y agoi.e. basically everyone
- seanmcdirmid 7y agoUhm, no: if you try to cross the border in they will shoot you just the same.
- luckylion 7y agoPay a bit of money in China and you'll have a visa in no time. That's doesn't work with, say, Switzerland, at least not with a similar amount of money.
- snowwrestler 7y agoI think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite this, U.S. residents can travel or move anywhere they want within the 50 states, with no prior approval and relatively inconsequential paperwork that largely amounts to notifying local authorities after the fact. Given this, I think it's surprising, and somewhat illuminating, the degree to which population, cultural, and economic differences persist across generations. The states with the highest (MD) and lowest (WV) median household incomes are directly adjacent to one another, but WV has not been emptied by mass migration into MD. Plenty of Oregon residents complain about income taxes, but don't move next door to Washington, which does not have an income tax. Etc. I know it's not the same as international borders, but it's also more significant than a single national government with purely administrative regions. Thinking about this has led me to question some of the fears about open international borders.
- lm28469 7y agoSame with EU, people seems to take it for granted but every time I think about it I find it amazing that it works as well as it does and how good it is.
- tonyedgecombe 7y agoIt was used as an argument for Brexit in our referendum. I'm not sure that was the real reason for the agitators though.
- gambiting 7y agoWhich was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.
- nautilus12 7y agoExploiting the known demographic bias of tech (and thus hackernews) to post a story that has nothing to do with tech and everything to do with the political dogfighting in the US knowing that it will go to the top is kind of pathetic.
- JimmySmitttz 7y agoLibturds love exploitation and they are pros at being pathetic. Anyone with a brain in the US knows this.
- EGreg 7y agoIn Russia you can take a tour boat to St Petersburg from Finland and they let you in for 3 days no problem. True of many countries that accept cruises. I think cruise ship may be a good way to get into a country without trying to get a visa.
- anticensor 7y agoNot in USA. They request a transit visa (although it is cheaper, it is procedurally very similar to single-entry tourist visa).
- arthurcolle 7y agoIn the US at least, I would imagine that if your cruise ship stops at a port in the USA and you come onto the mainland, you would still have to go through customs if you're coming from another country.
- jobigoud 7y agoIf you are in transit through China you can also visit on a special transit visa granted directly at the airport. I think you can stay 72h.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bsaul 7y ago"As climate change renders the rest of the planet as hostile to human life as the far north, we too must make the choice between throwing up walls and letting them down" Is this really the general conclusion about the cause why people want to emigrate to "developped" countries (the "we" in the citation) ? climat change ?
- lazyasciiart 7y agoNot necessarily the cause of migration today - I think this is a conclusion about how much more of a factor it will become in the future.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y agoClimate change was a significant factor in the Syrian civil war and ongoing migration in Central America. It will only become more significant.
- drdrey 7y agoCan you elaborate about the effect of climate change on the Syrian civil war? I am genuinely curious
- sm4rk0 7y agohttps://theconversation.com/is-syria-really-a-climate-war-we-examined-the-links-between-drought-migration-and-conflict-80110 https://theconversation.com/is-syria-really-a-climate-war-we...
- kmlx 7y agothat article mentions that drought was one of the many reasons of the Syrian civil war, not a “significant factor”.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoWhat is a reason if not a significant factor?
- hestefisk 7y agoI really dislike web sites that open a massive pop up complaining I have an ad blocker installed.
- sm4rk0 7y agoYou must be using either a wrong or a wrongly configured ad blocker.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sdfjkl 7y agoNonsense. The airport has no need of additional procedures because it is gatewayed by Norway (it's not an international airport). If you arrive there by boat, things look well different: > Visiting yachts must obtain a cruising permit before arrival and make arrangements for special insurance to cover the possible cost of a search and rescue operation. Also compulsory is having a gun to protect the crew from possible attacks by polar bears, of which there have been several in recent years. Those who do not possess a gun can hire one locally. SAR insurance cover is also available locally but is probably much cheaper if it is arranged through one’s own insurance company or bank. Source: https://www.noonsite.com/place/norway/svalbard-spitsbergen/longyearbyen/ https://www.noonsite.com/place/norway/svalbard-spitsbergen/l...
- _-___________-_ 7y agoYour quote really doesn't relate to TFA at all. "Open borders" is about immigration, whereas you're discussing insurance and self-protection requirements. Incidentally, a gun is virtually essential if you're going anywhere on Svalbard outside of built-up areas, whether you arrive by boat or not.
- TheCoelacanth 7y agoIt doesn't restrict immigration based on nationality. It does restrict it based on a lot of other things, so it's not really open borders.
- dmihal 7y agoIt is an international airport, when you fly from Oslo, you go through immigration and exit the Schengen area. While the visa requirement of transiting through Norway probably limits most visitors, the article does mention there are charter flights from Moscow every other month that avoids this restriction.
- schoen 7y agoIt looks like it's about 4500 km from Longyearbyen to Istanbul, which seems like a charter flight could then really open up international access without regard to visas -- since Turkish Airlines flies to around 120 countries from Istanbul Atatürk Airport, which allows visa-free international transit¹. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Airlines_destinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Airlines_desti... I don't think this will happen since that charter would be insanely expensive, and it would be hard for large numbers of people who all can't easily get a Schengen visa to coordinate regularly to pay for it to happen at the same moment. I think it would be a fun premise for a movie, at least. ¹ It might be challenging to convince the Turkish Airlines gate agents in all of the origin countries that the passengers, some of whom are not legally eligible to enter Turkey visa-free (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Turkey#/media/File:Visa_policy_of_Turkey.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Turkey#/media/F...), are all planning to make an inter-airline transfer in Istanbul, although maybe they could all show some kind of boarding document for the charter.
- netsharc 7y ago"Amid scaremongering about unrestricted migration, I went to Svalbard because I wanted to see whether there were lessons we could learn from this 2,300-person community a few hundred miles south of the North Pole." Translation: "I made up this bullshit and wrote this article so I can have the magazine pay for my adventure vacation".
- noetic_techy 7y agoSlightly off topic. I've often wondered why so much effort is put into "sea-steading" when you can simply get enough money to buy island territories away from countries that may not want them and setup something akin to a prototype country. Sure the islands of the far north may pose some technological challenges, but probably less so then setting up something floating on the ocean.
- kmlx 7y agoif you’ve got a big enough army to command the sky’s the limit. if you don’t then don’t expect your new country to survive for long.
- monksy 7y agoAccording to the state department: " Svalbard: The Svalbard archipelago consists of nine main islands located midway between mainland Norway and the North Pole. You need a passport to enter Svalbard. Unlike Norway’s mainland, Svalbard is not party to the Schengen Agreement and air travelers to Svalbard from Norway will depart the Schengen Zone prior to boarding. Travelers to Svalbard face unique hazards given the extreme weather conditions and limited transport infrastructure. " https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Norway.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-tra...
- evanb 7y agoThis assumes you get to Svalbard the traditional way--by flight from the Norwegian mainland, in which case you need a passport to transit or depart the Schengen on the mainland side. If you arrive by some other means you do not.
- jobigoud 7y agoWhy do we need a passport to exit Schengen? Just for book keeping for when we come back ? Why isn't the passport needed when leaving by boat then?
- wmil 7y agoFrom another article: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/world/europe/a-harsh-climate-calls-for-banishment-of-the-needy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/world/europe/a-harsh-clim... "The key to Svalbard’s status as probably Europe’s closest thing to a crime-free society, according to the governor, is that unemployment is in effect illegal. “If you don’t have a job, you can’t live here,” Mr. Ingero said, noting that the jobless are swiftly deported. Retirees are sent away, too, unless they can prove they have sufficient means to support themselves." Basically Svalbard can have relatively open borders because it's unappealing and they are very very aggressive about deportations.
- tathougies 7y agoHaving deportation along with open borders is the best example of how doublethink has taken over any sane discussion of nordic economies and government
- bookofjoe 7y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20619824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20619824
- incompatible 7y agoPeople who want to live on Mars could start by showing self-sufficient in Svalbard or Antarctica first. I assume it would be far easier because of the ideal gravity, protection from radiation, atmosphere and water. Manufacturing everything required would still be challenging.
- thomasfl 7y agoThe norwegian diplomat baron Fritz Wedel Jarlsberg, managed to make Svalbard Norwegian territory during the ongoing peace negotiations in Paris after world war 1. It is rumoured that the french diplomat leading the negotitations was Fritz’ secret lover.