13 ms·

Firefox Reality

372 points by mixedbit 7y ago

have_faith 7y ago
I've noticed it's very common for VR marketing material to show young children using the devices. Is stuffing a headset onto your kid going to be the new 'give them a tablet to shut them up' in the future? going to have some very interesting repercussions.
- gatherhunterer 7y ago
  Advertising always shows an exaggerated presence of young children. People like things that are cute and associate positive attitudes with them. I've seen real estate stock photos of offices with people holding toddlers and sometimes businesses like local insurance companies will advertise with just a giant picture of a baby's face; it's the kind of thing you see on bus benches and billboards.
  - granshaw 7y ago
    For the millennial generation, dogs are actually the new kids in advertising - but you can't strap a VR headset onto a dog
    - scottlegrand2 7y ago
      Sez you... https://youtu.be/ZqCOeECBfR8 https://youtu.be/ZqCOeECBfR8
    - wnevets 7y ago
      > but you can't strap a VR headset onto a dog I think that means you just haven't tried hard enough. I know for a fact an advert of a dog with a vr set strapped on would get my attention
      - Insanity 7y ago
        It would be a humourous / memorable advertisement of done well. I can even imagine the tagline: "So easy everyone in the family can use it".
    - echelon 7y ago
      I was going to say, kids are a huge turn off. I run the hell away from any products with kids in their advertisements. Meanwhile I pay for a membership to a dog park with alcohol and social events : https://fetchparkatl.com https://fetchparkatl.com My attitude towards having children may change one day, but it's just not the world we're living in right now.
      - wruza 7y ago
        Having (and loving) kids counts as default and when you don’t, you’re at least strange or your social integrity can be denied. Sadly, people went a long road to accept all sorts of sexualities, race equality, et cetera (minorities never were a trigger for me from the start), but still put ‘defaultness’ on pedestal. One with no kids can more likely get fired, their desires sacrificed, and so on in otherwise equal conditions. It feels like people did not just erase the border, but drew yet another which now encompasses a slightly bigger circle. We are still outside and this is barely going to change, since those who have kids seem to change on a psychological level and cannot think the other way.
        mirimir 7y ago
        > ... those who have kids seem to change on a psychological level and cannot think the other way. They do. It's like a switch gets flipped. Or like an ~instant ~unkickable addiction.
        inawarminister 7y ago
        Well, it's how our species survive the 2 millions years so far. You can't quite transcend biology just yet...
        mirimir 7y ago
        Well, you can just not have kids. Then you don't flip into parenting mode. That was largely intentional for me. Although a couple wives were pretty persuasive. And I've been propositioned for sperm a few times. By women who liked my style, but could see that I'd make a shitty parent.
    - dymk 7y ago
      The landing page has an illustration of the Firefox fox with a VR headset on, which is almost there
- brink 7y ago
  I doubt it. Most don't have nearly the stamina for a VR headset as they do for a regular screen.
  - magashna 7y ago
    Even as an adult, 30-60 minutes is about all I can physically take, no matter how engrossed in the game/movie/etc. I am.
    - cr0sh 7y ago
      How much of this fatigue for you is with your eyes? How much is it with your head/neck? I just wonder, because even when they "set" the focus of these HMDs to "infinity", your eyes are still technically only looking at a screen at a fixed distance, mere inches away. Everything I have read about so-called "simulator sickness" and other maladies in HMDs have said that eye fatigue results from this "fixed focus" issue. It doesn't cause as much issue for pilots training in simulators, because the actual screen being projected on is several feet away from their eyes, allowing them to become more naturally focused toward "infinity" (parallel). I also wonder about the head and neck areas and fatigue. Most of the HMDs - while lightweight compared to systems of the 1990s - still seem like they have a lot of "nose weight", and aren't balanced on the head. Proper balance (fore/aft and laterally) is crucial to long-term use with lower fatigue, even with a light weight HMD. Also, the more weight that rests on the bridge of the nose, the worse the amount of fatigue. Much of this knowledge is based on research that was done in the 1990s and earlier, both with those early HMD systems, and other earlier simulator systems. I'm continually surprised that current commercial offerings seems to either be unaware of such research, or that they ignore it for the sake of marketing (distributing the weight on the head results in a more "helmet like" HMD, which probably isn't as saleable to the public; ultimately, the public probably would like to see something as lightweight and wearable like a pair of sunglasses, but current display and optics technology isn't there yet - if it ever will be).
      - freeone3000 7y ago
        For me, I personally feel enclosed and slightly seasick. I don't think it's a weight issue, but something to do with the inherencies of the system. I can stand a hololens longer than a Vive, for instance.
- tantalor 7y ago
  In my experience kids younger than 7 don't do well in VR. Part of that is using the game controller blind, and having small hands as well. A controller designed for younger kids might help.
  - chime 7y ago
    > In my experience kids younger than 7 don't do well in VR. I know anecdote is not data but my 4yr old loves feeding his dinosaur in Oculus Quest 'Bogo' game. I limit his VR time to about 15-20 mins/week but he would love to do more if I allowed. I only use the base Quest headset straps/controller - no custom setup. He can easily press the different buttons on the controllers and move around as well as my 60yr old mom.
    - muraiki 7y ago
      I had heard that there are concerns about children using VR and how it could affect their development. The Oculus Health and Safety Guide says: > This product should not be used by children under the age of 13. Adults should monitor children (age 13 and older) who are using or have used the Headset for any of the symptoms described below, and should limit the time children spend using the Headset and ensure they take breaks during use. Prolonged use should be avoided, as this could negatively impact hand-eye coordination, balance, and multi-tasking ability. Adults should monitor children closely during and after use of the headset for any decrease in these abilities. https://scontent.oculuscdn.com/v/t64.5771-25/12331258_477090399380518_8145083002129481728_n.pdf?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQk8jXfxUmF8Hs_iWTvDT-tD5-87BmRobHkpCOa55Git6yT7fUWvpCsf5i3XnDPtQCs&_nc_ht=scontent.oculuscdn.com&oh=829ffc3f9542d32801e2f2329ef7b2ca&oe=5D744ADB https://scontent.oculuscdn.com/v/t64.5771-25/12331258_477090...
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        There is nothing shown about this (who would approve that controlled study?), just lots of suspicions (as usual). Screen time in general is bad for kids’ developing eyes, however.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Have you read Ready Player One?
  - Quekid5 7y ago
    Do you find science fiction to be a good predictor for the near future?
    - lucb1e 7y ago
      If you think sci-fi is not a good predictor for the near future, just post it as a statement, not a rhetorical question. I agree with you, though, that RPO is not meant to be realistic in any way and a bad example, but the way you generalized it to all of sci-fi makes it also not very helpful. Try The Martian from Andy Weir, or some of Daniel Suarez' books like Kill Decision. There is some scary realistic sci-fi out there.
      - Quekid5 7y ago
        I haven't read Kill Decision, but I have read The Martian, so I'll answer in that vein. I don't think The Martian is realistic, or even a good predictor of anything. Now, there may be an expedition to Mars in future, but AFAICT there's really no good reasoning for it. What's your argument for an expedition to Mars? EDIT: I just wanted to add: You and I -- humans that we are -- only remember the hits, i.e. the predictions that turned out to be true. There are a lot or predictions (sci fi novels, etc.) that turn out to not be true and are thus forgotten. QED
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        lucb1e 7y ago
        > What's your argument for an expedition to Mars? You seem to have missed the point of my comment completely. Your takeaway from my saying "just post it as a statement, not a rhetorical question" and "the way you generalized it to all of sci-fi makes it also not very helpful" (for which the books were supporting examples) is to ask what makes me think humanity should go to Mars? The book doesn't even argue we should or shouldn't go to Mars, but it contains a ton of research into how these missions could work and may actually (contrary to your generalization) be a realistic representation. As for survivorship bias, sure, I can think of a million sci-fi books that are unrealistic. I never made the argument all sci-fi is good or that their authors have done research or that they are good predictors. But that most don't even try to be predictive doesn't mean some might not be a realistic enough example to relate it to the choices we make and how it might play out. RPO just isn't one of them.
- cagenut 7y ago
  VR is just "screen time" reaching its logical extreme conclusion. Put another way "fully addressable visual cortex". It'll get really weird when "glued to your phone" starts being literal as wearable AR stuff gets adhesive bonds.
  - sebringj 7y ago
    Neuralink will be filling your visual cortex soon enough. :)
  - lone_haxx0r 7y ago
    > "fully addressable visual cortex". I prefer the concept of visual cortex framebuffer.
- buboard 7y ago
  i hope not. long term effects of a heavy constricting belt on a still-developing cranium must be severe.
  - zrobotics 7y ago
    It shouldn't be adjusted that tight though, that concern would also apply to a child wearing a maladjusted baseball cap as well. So I would suspect it's a minor concern, I would worry more about mental/cognitive effects more.
  - BinaryIdiot 7y ago
    > heavy constricting belt on a still-developing cranium How tight are you making the VR headset? Whatever tightness you're using might be a bit much if you consider it "heavy constricting".
  - scentoni 7y ago
    People have been doing that intentionally since prehistoric times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation
    - buboard 7y ago
      that ... doesnt look healthy
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  I did not see this on firefox’s reality page. Do you have a link to the offending image?
  - etatoby 7y ago
    It's on the homepage: https://mixedreality.mozilla.org/static/kid-03fadfdcdaaabce03eb0aa896e873f39.jpg https://mixedreality.mozilla.org/static/kid-03fadfdcdaaabce0...
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Ugh, still not seeing it. If I go to mixedreality.mozilla.org, that image doesn’t appear at all. I even tried requesting the desktop website and it still isn’t showing.
- etatoby 7y ago
  "They" don't want you to know how and why they are brainwashing your kid. When you take it off him/her to check, it will revert to some "safe" default show. </Tinfoil> </Sarcasm>
- partiallypro 7y ago
  I think it's because current VR isn't overly impressive to adults, but is to children.
forgotmypwd123 7y ago
Viveport, eww.
- spilk 7y ago
  yeah, really. Why not put it on Steam?
  - rocky1138 7y ago
    I love Viveport, personally. It's great to just pay once and play any game. I imagine Firefox will make tons of money this way since devs get paid by the amount of minutes the software runs.
- bayofpigs 7y ago
  Yes, note to the Mozilla team: Nobody uses Viveport except new users who are tricked. Publish on Steam if you want to reach Vive users.
  - andybak 7y ago
    Viveport has been growing since Infinity was launched. And the software is less awful than when it was first released. To be honest, it's not much more awful than the Steam or Oculus apps neither of which are paragons of quality.
- mrguyorama 7y ago
  Indeed. Software that barely runs and has a scummy history (supposedly). Last time I tried to find this on Viveport I couldn't, I couldn't find a search feature or otherwise locate this software
  - Macha 7y ago
    Do you have any source for this? I've not heard of any issues with Viveport that'd count as "scummy", just being an inferior app store to Steam. A search for "viveport controversy" finds nothing either.
Brakenshire 7y ago
I think this is Servo? Is there any progress with Servo outside of VR/AR? Really looking forward to a browser with parallel layout.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Not by default yet, but you can enable it for testing. Requires a recompile with a properties file to make the option appear. >Experimental Servo support >To compile with Servo support, create a file called user.properties in the top-level project directory and add enableServo=1. Then to enable Servo in Firefox Reality, go the Developer Options panel in the Settings, and toggle the Servo option. Then a new button will be added to the navigation bar. Clicking that button will reload the current page with Servo. https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality
- pcwalton 7y ago
  Yes! There's an active Servo Layout 2.0 project going on right now, which is a revamp of layout to make it production-quality. Anthony developed some Rust iterator magic to allow us to write sequential-looking code that actually runs in parallel, which is a major improvement in maintainability over what we had before. Most of the work is currently going on out-of-tree in Simon's victor project, if you're interested: https://github.com/SimonSapin/victor https://github.com/SimonSapin/victor
  - krferriter 7y ago
    Java added fairly seamless parallel iterators via streams but there is a huge amount of overhead there and often it is slower than normal iterators, depending on the work being done at each iteration. Hopefully Rust is able to avoid that sort of downside.
    - pcwalton 7y ago
      The parallelism in Servo layout is powered by Rayon, which is extensively optimized and shipping in Firefox.
jdlyga 7y ago
Is this for Oculus Quest yet?
- tantalor 7y ago
  Yep https://www.oculus.com/experiences/app/2180252408763702 https://www.oculus.com/experiences/app/2180252408763702
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    Note that multi-window support isn't released on Quest yet, but should come once they get to the bottom of this: https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1459 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1459
brianzelip 7y ago
What _is_ it? A new headset? A new browser? What?
- djsumdog 7y ago
  A application for existing 3D headsets. I've had this on my Oculus Go for a while.
wlesieutre 7y ago
Not sure what the situation is for tabbed browsing in this. "Viewing multiple pages concurrently" issue repeatedly mentions tabs as something that needs to be designed https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/635 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/635, in May saying "Will keep this issue open for designing Tabs. Feel free to make changes to track the design + engineering." But then in June it's "Closing this in favor of new meta bug #1319" And #1319 does not mention tabs anywhere. https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1319 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1319 Maybe tabs have been implicitly bundled into "multiwindow" when they're talking about that? Can't check myself because the Quest version doesn't have any multiwindow support, it looks like they're working on a crash issue for it. I tried a dev build sideloaded last week on the Quest and being in a single-window no-tab environment where you can only have one page open at a time is very limiting. But as soon as that's worked out, I'll be switching to this as the main browser. I wonder if it will be possible for someone to patch Oculus Home so that the Browser button opens this instead.
- larsberg 7y ago
  Hi! As we mentioned in the recent Quest release blog post, https://blog.mozvr.com/firefox-reality-for-oculus-quest/ https://blog.mozvr.com/firefox-reality-for-oculus-quest/, we have some designs for multi-window support and synchronization of content between platforms. We're still working on options around tabs / additional content beyond the number of windows you have open, alongside our really awesome Seattle-based design partners, Podipo: http://podipo.com/ http://podipo.com/ Once we have some concrete designs, we'll have issues open and on our public roadmap for comment and we often have early builds available in our releases page for sideloading if people are interested in testing and giving feedback.
cr0sh 7y ago
EDIT: I took a quick look at the codebase for the browser (https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality), and it isn't what I was expecting (once you dive to app/src) - definitions for the main three supported systems are each at this root level, and I didn't see any kind of "template" or "empty" definition file or anything to guide someone wanting to make one themselves - but maybe that's not possible. It appears that these files are wrappers around the APIs used for those other products (?). So your only hope would be to base your wrapper on these existing ones, which while feasible (working with the API docs too), isn't what I would call "ideal". Plus, there doesn't seem to be a separation of concerns when it comes to input vs output. I mean, what if I wanted to use my hacked powerglove with my Rift HMD? Or what if I wanted to use my Vive controllers with my Virtuality Pro? I understand that the supported systems are nominally "all-in-one" solutions, but the parts (HMDs, controllers, tracking) are available separately (at least in some of the cases) - so mixing and matching might be something someone would want to do. It would definitely be that case for those implementing their own "mixed setup", where they might have an old VPL datasuit and glove, plus some other old pro-level HMD that they like to play with. As it is, it seems like each setup would have to be a custom "all-in-one" for that setup, so if you had two different systems that used two different HMDs and tracking, but both used the same Powerglove Minelli interface - the code couldn't be "shared" in a reasonable manner (yes, I know with the right symlinking and other buggery it could be accomplished within the current structure, but it isn't ideal). I was hoping the structure would be more like /plugins, with /input /output, and under those /controller /glove /wand and /hmd /motionplatform /cave, then under each /occulus /vive /google /example Or something like that. Am I wrong here? --- Ok - I know this is likely open source and thus can be changed, but I honestly wish that things like this offered (and marketed) a means - via plugins or something (and maybe this does - hence, marketed) - the ability to expand on what i/o devices are allowed. Sure - should the "main players" be featured? Of course. But what about those of us who might like to - oh, I don't know - throw on an old Forte VFX-1 and a Powerglove and go at it? Maybe we want to recreate the experience of using REND386? Or what if you have access to a Polhemus or Ascension magnetic tracking system (or any number of other "pro-level" tracking)? Or HMDs? Or other input devices? Or motion platforms? Maybe you're a developer of something completely new, and want to play in this same environment and make it compatible... Again - I haven't dug into the code, and maybe it's designed to accommodate these kinds of use cases. I'd just love to see that availability, if it exists, to be advertised more. I guess its because I get the same feeling around software released for my OS of choice, where Windows and Mac are prominently advertised, and Linux is at best, if it's offered at all, the classic step-child stuffed in a closet. As an aside, I never can figure out the argument that "we don't offer support for Linux because the market is so small, it isn't worth it for us" - well, if everyone keeps saying and doing that, what do you think will ultimately occur? Do you think that market will grow, stay the same, or shrink?
bibyte 7y ago
Maybe this is a stupid question but how would you click on something like this ? With your eyes or your hands ?
- Yoric 7y ago
  I tested a very, very early demo of this, and it used to be hands. I imagine it's still the case.
- sp332 7y ago
  For Oculus Go and Google Daydream, you have a tiny controller with a couple of buttons like the one at the bottom of this page: https://www.oculus.com/go/accessories/ https://www.oculus.com/go/accessories/ Instead of moving it physically "onto" a button in 3D space, you just "point" at the button using the controller, and then click. Here's a demo of what it looks like inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bxZlU-kbA&t=272 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bxZlU-kbA&t=272
- wongarsu 7y ago
  Clicking in VR is usually done with your controller. The controller shines a virtual laser pointer making it easy to aim and click. Doing it with your eyes may be preferable long-term, but eye tracking isn't in consumer headsets yet.
  - chipperyman573 7y ago
    "Easy" to aim and click may be a stretch... I have only ever tried the Vive's implementation before but it felt a lot like holding a laser pointer - basically impossible to get any precision because your hand vibrates so much in ways you don't realize.
  - andybak 7y ago
    > Doing it with your eyes may be preferable long-term On the contrary, gaze control was forced upon us when phone-based VR had no access to a controller. It's actually rather unnatural. We look at many things without wanting to activate them so you have to have a secondary cue for "clicking". Usually a timer: "stare at this for x seconds" which means every interaction is an exercise in patience. Gesture control is probably the most natural if done well but when done badly it's fairly awful. I still can't master clicking on a v1 Hololens and I avoid using the thing without a clicker. Simple unobtrusive controllers are going to be the best bet for a fair while I suspect.
gtbono 7y ago
Sad that the daydream version on a Moto Z in Google Play gives me a "Your device isn't compatible with this version" for me even though I can run Daydream and other daydream apps
- Fej 7y ago
  It is meant only for standalone Daydream headsets. Why this is the case, I cannot fathom.
  - sjs382 7y ago
    Wow, I had no idea those even existed! Thanks for clarifying.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    No support for desktop oculus? Really annoying.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Even standalone headsets seem to be a crapshoot. It "runs" on my Lenovo Mirage, for example, but (last I checked) it's pretty crashy.
- sjs382 7y ago
  I get the same result with my Pixel 3 XL.
- larsberg 7y ago
  Unfortunately, we don't currently support phone-based Daydream or Gear VR devices. There's both a bunch of extra work to support all of the phone in/out/notification lifecycle scenarios and we have a pretty small engineering team and the long tail of phone/chipset-specific bugs is pretty substantial. We might evaluate support for it or Cardboard in the future, but for right now we're mainly focused on standalone headsets. That said, we're all in favor of people who want to sideload and play with it! https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/wiki/Sideload https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/wiki/Sidelo...
ilaksh 7y ago
Will it work for Oculus Quest?
- cjbprime 7y ago
  Yes, just announced.
ronreiter 7y ago
Oh man, I miss VRML :)
- cr0sh 7y ago
  In my collection of VR documents and software "artifacts" - I have a collection of QuickBasic 4.5 programs (source code) that this French team built (circa late 1990s IIRC) to generate various VRML models and "worlds" using code. I don't recall how abstracted it was, but I thought it unique enough to save it for my archive. I should really go through that collection and release it in some manner - I have tons of interesting stuff, much of which has disappeared from the web. Maybe an upload to archive.org would be in order...
Jonahgay 7y ago
I'm fcking hyped, VR browsing , can't wait to overheat my CPU.
Quekid5 7y ago
"Enter a New Dimension"... of what? I didn't advance beyond the opening screen. Is this going to educate me (mmm), seduce me (eww), stimulate me (eww/mmm?), or just going to advertise to me? The problem with all of these virtual-X or augmented-X is that they don't provide enough value to me -- as a consumer -- they're just "grand ideas" without any real value. I'm sure the gimmick effect has some value in and of itself, but c'mon.
- lucb1e 7y ago
  I also didn't quite understand the landing page. Enter a new dimension can be applied to anything. Scrolling further we find some VR brands, but the title made that clear already. Then your eyes are drawn to the moving game covers. So are they making an app store? Scrolling further, we find "Designed from the Virtual Ground Up". Ha-ha I see what they did there. And then comes the footer. Only now that I go back through it more slowly to write it up, I find this small text just before the end: "designed to tackle all of the new opportunities (and challenges) that come with browsing in VR". Oh it's a browser! Only after typing the comment about how I scrolled through the whole page and didn't find a meaningful statement, I noticed a line of text hidden between headlines and moving pictures that should have been the title.
  - sdan 7y ago
    Yeah the page wasn't clear what it was until I saw the video on the Oculus page. Thought they were releasing a headset or something.
- amelius 7y ago
  Enter a new Dimension ... or just be disappointed for the fact that you need a VR headset.
  - stan_rogers 7y ago
    Well, no... you can also use a holographic projector if you have one.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Is there any particular reason they can't offer a damn .exe so I can try this out with my Index? I'm sure the copy on Viveport would work, but I don't want to install Viveport. :( Edit: Their Github page has releases, but they're all APK's? https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/releases https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/releases Edit2: Oh, it's for "standalone" headsets. Never mind I guess...
- sirsuki 7y ago
  Any reason iOS is excluded? Last I checked they still have a good share of the mobile user bases out there.
  - dingo_bat 7y ago
    There's no standalone VR headsets running ios.
  - etatoby 7y ago
    I'm not aware of any iOS-based VR headsets. They are probably not targeting the el-cheapo cardboard variety.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    Firefox IOS uses the safari browser because Apple's walled garden is off limits for browsers that are not based on that. So, that makes shipping a VR browser without the Firefox internals impossible/impractical. In this case, it's not only a browser but a content store that is not iTunes, which complicates things further.
- larsberg 7y ago
  Thanks! We don't currently have a build of Firefox Reality available for desktop devices, but that work is currently underway. We announced it as part of our deal with HTC and are excited to show it off soon: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/01/08/mozilla-announces-deal-to-bring-firefox-reality-to-htc-vive-devices/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/01/08/mozilla-announces-d...
AcerbicZero 7y ago
Until Mozilla fixes Firefox and stops treating users like children, I will continue to use other browser options. What a slow sad death :(
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jvehent 7y ago
Firefox Reality is a version of Firefox targeted at VR headsets. You can install it from the store of the Oculus Quest (the headset I own, I imagine others are supported). It's not meant to run on a regular workstation. The interesting feature of this browser is navigating VR ready websites that provide an immersive experience (aka. webvr). You can also browse the regular web from your headsets, of course, but that's not particularly exciting.
- nicholascamera 7y ago
  It is very odd how vague their product description page is. Naming a product Firefox Reality seems like good marketing: what could be a better brand than all of Reality? However in reality, their site doesn’t say exactly what parent says: Firefox Reality is a browser built for (standalone) XR devices.
  - JadeNB 7y ago
    > It is very odd how vague their product description page is. Surely the oddity is solved by postulating that it is a marketing strategy to build interest?
  - ACow_Adonis 7y ago
    I'm assuming that's a typo and you meant VR, given that I've never heard of XR, and thus wouldn't really be an improvement in terms of vagueness...
    - neiman 7y ago
      No, XR is a thing now. It's a general name for VR, AR and MR (mixed reality). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Reality_(XR) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Reality_(XR)
- larsberg 7y ago
  Thanks! We also find that a lot of our users really like watching 360 or even 2D videos, taking advantage of the ability to resize the screen to get their own personal theater. Right now, we only have Firefox Reality available for standalone VR headsets, but we're bringing the experience to desktop VR and a variety of standalone AR headsets in the second half of this year.
neiman 7y ago
My problem with the whole VR world, Firefox Reality included, is that it requires me to use stores, open accounts, and do all kind of stuff that seems to me unnecessary. Do I get it wrong?
- gfodor 7y ago
  Firefox Reality includes support for WebVR, so you can use web based VR applications through the browser. Part of the reason you might choose to install Firefox Reality on your VR headset is because it's important to you that developers of VR apps always have an option to use the web to share their apps, which will avoid forcing their users in the way you mention. We've built a social VR application called Hubs (hubs.mozilla.com) to showcase the potential of web based VR applications.
  - neiman 7y ago
    Thanks for the answer.
dyarosla 7y ago
A little off topic, but what a world we live in when a prominent browser maker is advertising a new browser with a webpage that doesn’t properly display its main tagline on small devices (iPhone SE) https://i.imgur.com/WkqsUEZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/WkqsUEZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&f... If they can’t get it right, what does that say about the state of the web as a platform?
- stevenhubertron 7y ago
  If its like the analytics for the 45MM users I get on the sites I manage the SE traffic is less than 0.5%. And to be clear, its not broken, the alignment is slightly off: https://imgur.com/a/GBLe5Jt https://imgur.com/a/GBLe5Jt I would totally let this pass QA for such a minority view.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dyarosla 7y ago
    1) I didn’t say broken, I said ‘doesn’t properly display‘. 2) How many other smaller phones exist on the market? It’s disingenuous to say it’s .5%. This is not some complex item- it should simply not look like this. If the simple stuff is misaligned, what can you expect the rest of the page and more complex items to work like?
- OkGoDoIt 7y ago
  Even Apple doesn’t care about the iPhone SE anymore. I installed the iOS 13 beta on my iPhone SE and in several places the built in apps or parts of the operating system don’t properly fit on the screen. It’s a shame
- SquareWheel 7y ago
  Most websites break around the 300px mark, even when responsive. According to Chrome's dev tools the iPhone SE has a 320px width. Alignment issues are going to be common on that device.
zmmmmm 7y ago
Seems a little bit weird to call this "Reality" - the word "Virtual" is not incidental the meaning of the phrase "Virtual Reality", taking it away completely reverses the meaning. It's almost like this is an April Fool's joke.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  Branding doesn't need to be literal, just evocative. The word reality is often mentioned in trippy or philosophical contexts, which is the connotation that the term "virtual reality" is trying to evoke. The brand strategy didn't work for you, but I don't think it's a particularly unreasonable one, and I think plenty of people will tap into the connotations they were going for.
partiallypro 7y ago
I swear if I get a client that says their site isn't Oculus ready, I'm going to be upset.
tyingq 7y ago
I'm curious if Firefox has considered a GSuite competitor. Their IOT/home-router offering looks great, and a similarly privacy-first GSuite might get a lot of cross sell.
- bytematic 7y ago
  That would be cool but a beast of a project and a hard sell to big business. Maybe start with email/calendar/etc. first
  - nfoz 7y ago
    I think you've just come full-circle to Mozilla Thunderbird which has been around since 2003. - https://www.thunderbird.net/ https://www.thunderbird.net/ - https://www.thunderbird.net/calendar/ https://www.thunderbird.net/calendar/
    - cesarb 7y ago
      It's from even earlier, since from what I recall it's a direct descendant of the email client which was part of Netscape Navigator in the late 90s.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      I was thinking some version of privacy centric webmail + suite (yes, I get the issue). The market for Thunderbird is just too niche.
      - kwijibob 7y ago
        Mozilla should partner with Libreoffice to make their web version a polished competitor to GSuite.
        tyingq 7y ago
        Web Libreoffice plus a decent integrated webmail implementation seems like it would do well. Several companies are charging $5+/month/user for less, and are doing well, right now.
yarrel 7y ago
I'm looking forward to Firefox supporting OpenXR, which will open it up to all the headsets supported on GNU/Linux by OpenHMD via Monado.
StevePoling 7y ago
Wind power really needs something to level demand—either a battery scheme such as Tesla is selling or pumped storage (where you pump water uphill when the wind is blowing and let it flow downhill when it isn’t) it’s
- DangitBobby 7y ago
  I think you commented on the wrong thing
als0 7y ago
A bit off topic - but does anyone remember VRML? Did it die out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML
- gattilorenz 7y ago
  Absolutely. When I was a kid I did not have any internet access, and most of the software was from CDs from magazines. One of them had a VRML world+editor that I still remember fondly. I should try to see if the CD is still readable...
  - dguaraglia 7y ago
    You should check on cd.textfiles.com. They have the content of a bunch of those old CDs that would come with magazines. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit download content from textfiles.com and reminiscing of the pre-ubiquitous-internet world :)
- bri3d 7y ago
  Yes and yes, mostly. Some libraries (like three.js) still support loading "Classic VRML" as a scene format, but I don't think it's a popular target these days. On a similar nostalgia train, does anyone else remember Cycore Cult3D? It was a sort-of-WebGL-ish browser plugin targeted at rendering 3D parts and product views in the browser.
djhaskin987 7y ago
Mozilla has really gone off the rails. They have deprioritized html 5 compliance and keep chasing spectres like VR and mobile. I really wish they'd just stick to making sure there's a solid, viable alternative to chrome, instead of getting distracted like this.
- mikedilger 7y ago
  I noticed a few months back that the Servo engine (upon which I was building a play/experimental browser) development had shifted significantly in the direction of Mixed Reality (it shifted more than a few months back, but I was not paying that close of attention). At that point I gave up on my browser project. Some execs at Mozilla think MR is the wave of the future. I think it's mostly a party trick with a very niche market and will always only be a niche market, and wasting top talent on MR seriously detracts from a project that is a hundred-fold more important. But maybe that's just me.
  - tempay 7y ago
    > MR seriously detracts from a project that is a hundred-fold more important I have mixed feeling about this. I’m inclined to agree with you however if it did take off it could mean the difference between Firefox dying and becoming the market leader.
- IshKebab 7y ago
  I don't think mobile is a mistake, as long as Chrome mobile doesn't have as blocking there's at least one very good reason to use Firefox, also the reader viewer is a life saver. VR seems like a huge waste of resources though. Yes I think it will take off in the next 10 years, but are people really going to be using VR to browse the web? And can you really make good VR apps in JavaScript? I doubt it. People still don't use WebGL/WASM for traditional 3D games which are less demanding.
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    > VR seems like a huge waste of resources though. Yes I think it will take off in the next 10 years, but are people really going to be using VR to browse the web? You could've asked something similar 12 years ago: sure, smartphones will probably take off, but are people really going to be using those small devices to browse the web? Mozilla missed that boat; they can't afford to miss this one if it's going to take off. Weighing that against investing resources now, at a time when they're financially healthy, makes it a pretty sane direction in my view.
pittsthebitts 7y ago
I have a hard time believing browsing the Internet will ever be in a form like this unless we find an easier way to input information than typing on a keyboard. It's just too much energy.
mosselman 7y ago
How about making Firefox work on mac without having to put it in low-res mode?

372 points by mixedbit 7y ago

I've noticed it's very common for VR marketing material to show young children using the devices. Is stuffing a headset onto your kid going to be the new 'give them a tablet to shut them up' in the future? going to have some very interesting repercussions.

gatherhunterer 7y ago
Advertising always shows an exaggerated presence of young children. People like things that are cute and associate positive attitudes with them. I've seen real estate stock photos of offices with people holding toddlers and sometimes businesses like local insurance companies will advertise with just a giant picture of a baby's face; it's the kind of thing you see on bus benches and billboards.
- granshaw 7y ago
  For the millennial generation, dogs are actually the new kids in advertising - but you can't strap a VR headset onto a dog
  - scottlegrand2 7y ago
    Sez you... https://youtu.be/ZqCOeECBfR8 https://youtu.be/ZqCOeECBfR8
  - wnevets 7y ago
    > but you can't strap a VR headset onto a dog I think that means you just haven't tried hard enough. I know for a fact an advert of a dog with a vr set strapped on would get my attention
    - Insanity 7y ago
      It would be a humourous / memorable advertisement of done well. I can even imagine the tagline: "So easy everyone in the family can use it".
  - echelon 7y ago
    I was going to say, kids are a huge turn off. I run the hell away from any products with kids in their advertisements. Meanwhile I pay for a membership to a dog park with alcohol and social events : https://fetchparkatl.com https://fetchparkatl.com My attitude towards having children may change one day, but it's just not the world we're living in right now.
    - wruza 7y ago
      Having (and loving) kids counts as default and when you don’t, you’re at least strange or your social integrity can be denied. Sadly, people went a long road to accept all sorts of sexualities, race equality, et cetera (minorities never were a trigger for me from the start), but still put ‘defaultness’ on pedestal. One with no kids can more likely get fired, their desires sacrificed, and so on in otherwise equal conditions. It feels like people did not just erase the border, but drew yet another which now encompasses a slightly bigger circle. We are still outside and this is barely going to change, since those who have kids seem to change on a psychological level and cannot think the other way.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        > ... those who have kids seem to change on a psychological level and cannot think the other way. They do. It's like a switch gets flipped. Or like an ~instant ~unkickable addiction.
        inawarminister 7y ago
        Well, it's how our species survive the 2 millions years so far. You can't quite transcend biology just yet...
        mirimir 7y ago
        Well, you can just not have kids. Then you don't flip into parenting mode. That was largely intentional for me. Although a couple wives were pretty persuasive. And I've been propositioned for sperm a few times. By women who liked my style, but could see that I'd make a shitty parent.
  - dymk 7y ago
    The landing page has an illustration of the Firefox fox with a VR headset on, which is almost there
brink 7y ago
I doubt it. Most don't have nearly the stamina for a VR headset as they do for a regular screen.
- magashna 7y ago
  Even as an adult, 30-60 minutes is about all I can physically take, no matter how engrossed in the game/movie/etc. I am.
  - cr0sh 7y ago
    How much of this fatigue for you is with your eyes? How much is it with your head/neck? I just wonder, because even when they "set" the focus of these HMDs to "infinity", your eyes are still technically only looking at a screen at a fixed distance, mere inches away. Everything I have read about so-called "simulator sickness" and other maladies in HMDs have said that eye fatigue results from this "fixed focus" issue. It doesn't cause as much issue for pilots training in simulators, because the actual screen being projected on is several feet away from their eyes, allowing them to become more naturally focused toward "infinity" (parallel). I also wonder about the head and neck areas and fatigue. Most of the HMDs - while lightweight compared to systems of the 1990s - still seem like they have a lot of "nose weight", and aren't balanced on the head. Proper balance (fore/aft and laterally) is crucial to long-term use with lower fatigue, even with a light weight HMD. Also, the more weight that rests on the bridge of the nose, the worse the amount of fatigue. Much of this knowledge is based on research that was done in the 1990s and earlier, both with those early HMD systems, and other earlier simulator systems. I'm continually surprised that current commercial offerings seems to either be unaware of such research, or that they ignore it for the sake of marketing (distributing the weight on the head results in a more "helmet like" HMD, which probably isn't as saleable to the public; ultimately, the public probably would like to see something as lightweight and wearable like a pair of sunglasses, but current display and optics technology isn't there yet - if it ever will be).
    - freeone3000 7y ago
      For me, I personally feel enclosed and slightly seasick. I don't think it's a weight issue, but something to do with the inherencies of the system. I can stand a hololens longer than a Vive, for instance.
tantalor 7y ago
In my experience kids younger than 7 don't do well in VR. Part of that is using the game controller blind, and having small hands as well. A controller designed for younger kids might help.
- chime 7y ago
  > In my experience kids younger than 7 don't do well in VR. I know anecdote is not data but my 4yr old loves feeding his dinosaur in Oculus Quest 'Bogo' game. I limit his VR time to about 15-20 mins/week but he would love to do more if I allowed. I only use the base Quest headset straps/controller - no custom setup. He can easily press the different buttons on the controllers and move around as well as my 60yr old mom.
  - muraiki 7y ago
    I had heard that there are concerns about children using VR and how it could affect their development. The Oculus Health and Safety Guide says: > This product should not be used by children under the age of 13. Adults should monitor children (age 13 and older) who are using or have used the Headset for any of the symptoms described below, and should limit the time children spend using the Headset and ensure they take breaks during use. Prolonged use should be avoided, as this could negatively impact hand-eye coordination, balance, and multi-tasking ability. Adults should monitor children closely during and after use of the headset for any decrease in these abilities. https://scontent.oculuscdn.com/v/t64.5771-25/12331258_477090399380518_8145083002129481728_n.pdf?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQk8jXfxUmF8Hs_iWTvDT-tD5-87BmRobHkpCOa55Git6yT7fUWvpCsf5i3XnDPtQCs&_nc_ht=scontent.oculuscdn.com&oh=829ffc3f9542d32801e2f2329ef7b2ca&oe=5D744ADB https://scontent.oculuscdn.com/v/t64.5771-25/12331258_477090...
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      There is nothing shown about this (who would approve that controlled study?), just lots of suspicions (as usual). Screen time in general is bad for kids’ developing eyes, however.
djsumdog 7y ago
Have you read Ready Player One?
- Quekid5 7y ago
  Do you find science fiction to be a good predictor for the near future?
  - lucb1e 7y ago
    If you think sci-fi is not a good predictor for the near future, just post it as a statement, not a rhetorical question. I agree with you, though, that RPO is not meant to be realistic in any way and a bad example, but the way you generalized it to all of sci-fi makes it also not very helpful. Try The Martian from Andy Weir, or some of Daniel Suarez' books like Kill Decision. There is some scary realistic sci-fi out there.
    - Quekid5 7y ago
      I haven't read Kill Decision, but I have read The Martian, so I'll answer in that vein. I don't think The Martian is realistic, or even a good predictor of anything. Now, there may be an expedition to Mars in future, but AFAICT there's really no good reasoning for it. What's your argument for an expedition to Mars? EDIT: I just wanted to add: You and I -- humans that we are -- only remember the hits, i.e. the predictions that turned out to be true. There are a lot or predictions (sci fi novels, etc.) that turn out to not be true and are thus forgotten. QED
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - lucb1e 7y ago
        > What's your argument for an expedition to Mars? You seem to have missed the point of my comment completely. Your takeaway from my saying "just post it as a statement, not a rhetorical question" and "the way you generalized it to all of sci-fi makes it also not very helpful" (for which the books were supporting examples) is to ask what makes me think humanity should go to Mars? The book doesn't even argue we should or shouldn't go to Mars, but it contains a ton of research into how these missions could work and may actually (contrary to your generalization) be a realistic representation. As for survivorship bias, sure, I can think of a million sci-fi books that are unrealistic. I never made the argument all sci-fi is good or that their authors have done research or that they are good predictors. But that most don't even try to be predictive doesn't mean some might not be a realistic enough example to relate it to the choices we make and how it might play out. RPO just isn't one of them.
cagenut 7y ago
VR is just "screen time" reaching its logical extreme conclusion. Put another way "fully addressable visual cortex". It'll get really weird when "glued to your phone" starts being literal as wearable AR stuff gets adhesive bonds.
- sebringj 7y ago
  Neuralink will be filling your visual cortex soon enough. :)
- lone_haxx0r 7y ago
  > "fully addressable visual cortex". I prefer the concept of visual cortex framebuffer.
buboard 7y ago
i hope not. long term effects of a heavy constricting belt on a still-developing cranium must be severe.
- zrobotics 7y ago
  It shouldn't be adjusted that tight though, that concern would also apply to a child wearing a maladjusted baseball cap as well. So I would suspect it's a minor concern, I would worry more about mental/cognitive effects more.
- BinaryIdiot 7y ago
  > heavy constricting belt on a still-developing cranium How tight are you making the VR headset? Whatever tightness you're using might be a bit much if you consider it "heavy constricting".
- scentoni 7y ago
  People have been doing that intentionally since prehistoric times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation
  - buboard 7y ago
    that ... doesnt look healthy
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
seanmcdirmid 7y ago
I did not see this on firefox’s reality page. Do you have a link to the offending image?
- etatoby 7y ago
  It's on the homepage: https://mixedreality.mozilla.org/static/kid-03fadfdcdaaabce03eb0aa896e873f39.jpg https://mixedreality.mozilla.org/static/kid-03fadfdcdaaabce0...
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Ugh, still not seeing it. If I go to mixedreality.mozilla.org, that image doesn’t appear at all. I even tried requesting the desktop website and it still isn’t showing.
etatoby 7y ago
"They" don't want you to know how and why they are brainwashing your kid. When you take it off him/her to check, it will revert to some "safe" default show. </Tinfoil> </Sarcasm>
partiallypro 7y ago
I think it's because current VR isn't overly impressive to adults, but is to children.

forgotmypwd123 7y ago

Viveport, eww.

spilk 7y ago
yeah, really. Why not put it on Steam?
- rocky1138 7y ago
  I love Viveport, personally. It's great to just pay once and play any game. I imagine Firefox will make tons of money this way since devs get paid by the amount of minutes the software runs.
bayofpigs 7y ago
Yes, note to the Mozilla team: Nobody uses Viveport except new users who are tricked. Publish on Steam if you want to reach Vive users.
- andybak 7y ago
  Viveport has been growing since Infinity was launched. And the software is less awful than when it was first released. To be honest, it's not much more awful than the Steam or Oculus apps neither of which are paragons of quality.
mrguyorama 7y ago
Indeed. Software that barely runs and has a scummy history (supposedly). Last time I tried to find this on Viveport I couldn't, I couldn't find a search feature or otherwise locate this software
- Macha 7y ago
  Do you have any source for this? I've not heard of any issues with Viveport that'd count as "scummy", just being an inferior app store to Steam. A search for "viveport controversy" finds nothing either.

Brakenshire 7y ago

I think this is Servo? Is there any progress with Servo outside of VR/AR? Really looking forward to a browser with parallel layout.

wlesieutre 7y ago
Not by default yet, but you can enable it for testing. Requires a recompile with a properties file to make the option appear. >Experimental Servo support >To compile with Servo support, create a file called user.properties in the top-level project directory and add enableServo=1. Then to enable Servo in Firefox Reality, go the Developer Options panel in the Settings, and toggle the Servo option. Then a new button will be added to the navigation bar. Clicking that button will reload the current page with Servo. https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality
pcwalton 7y ago
Yes! There's an active Servo Layout 2.0 project going on right now, which is a revamp of layout to make it production-quality. Anthony developed some Rust iterator magic to allow us to write sequential-looking code that actually runs in parallel, which is a major improvement in maintainability over what we had before. Most of the work is currently going on out-of-tree in Simon's victor project, if you're interested: https://github.com/SimonSapin/victor https://github.com/SimonSapin/victor
- krferriter 7y ago
  Java added fairly seamless parallel iterators via streams but there is a huge amount of overhead there and often it is slower than normal iterators, depending on the work being done at each iteration. Hopefully Rust is able to avoid that sort of downside.
  - pcwalton 7y ago
    The parallelism in Servo layout is powered by Rayon, which is extensively optimized and shipping in Firefox.

jdlyga 7y ago

Is this for Oculus Quest yet?

tantalor 7y ago
Yep https://www.oculus.com/experiences/app/2180252408763702 https://www.oculus.com/experiences/app/2180252408763702
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Note that multi-window support isn't released on Quest yet, but should come once they get to the bottom of this: https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1459 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1459

brianzelip 7y ago

What _is_ it? A new headset? A new browser? What?

djsumdog 7y ago
A application for existing 3D headsets. I've had this on my Oculus Go for a while.

wlesieutre 7y ago

Not sure what the situation is for tabbed browsing in this. "Viewing multiple pages concurrently" issue repeatedly mentions tabs as something that needs to be designed https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/635 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/635, in May saying "Will keep this issue open for designing Tabs. Feel free to make changes to track the design + engineering." But then in June it's "Closing this in favor of new meta bug #1319" And #1319 does not mention tabs anywhere. https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1319 https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/issues/1319 Maybe tabs have been implicitly bundled into "multiwindow" when they're talking about that? Can't check myself because the Quest version doesn't have any multiwindow support, it looks like they're working on a crash issue for it. I tried a dev build sideloaded last week on the Quest and being in a single-window no-tab environment where you can only have one page open at a time is very limiting. But as soon as that's worked out, I'll be switching to this as the main browser. I wonder if it will be possible for someone to patch Oculus Home so that the Browser button opens this instead.

larsberg 7y ago
Hi! As we mentioned in the recent Quest release blog post, https://blog.mozvr.com/firefox-reality-for-oculus-quest/ https://blog.mozvr.com/firefox-reality-for-oculus-quest/, we have some designs for multi-window support and synchronization of content between platforms. We're still working on options around tabs / additional content beyond the number of windows you have open, alongside our really awesome Seattle-based design partners, Podipo: http://podipo.com/ http://podipo.com/ Once we have some concrete designs, we'll have issues open and on our public roadmap for comment and we often have early builds available in our releases page for sideloading if people are interested in testing and giving feedback.

cr0sh 7y ago

EDIT: I took a quick look at the codebase for the browser (https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality), and it isn't what I was expecting (once you dive to app/src) - definitions for the main three supported systems are each at this root level, and I didn't see any kind of "template" or "empty" definition file or anything to guide someone wanting to make one themselves - but maybe that's not possible. It appears that these files are wrappers around the APIs used for those other products (?). So your only hope would be to base your wrapper on these existing ones, which while feasible (working with the API docs too), isn't what I would call "ideal". Plus, there doesn't seem to be a separation of concerns when it comes to input vs output. I mean, what if I wanted to use my hacked powerglove with my Rift HMD? Or what if I wanted to use my Vive controllers with my Virtuality Pro? I understand that the supported systems are nominally "all-in-one" solutions, but the parts (HMDs, controllers, tracking) are available separately (at least in some of the cases) - so mixing and matching might be something someone would want to do. It would definitely be that case for those implementing their own "mixed setup", where they might have an old VPL datasuit and glove, plus some other old pro-level HMD that they like to play with. As it is, it seems like each setup would have to be a custom "all-in-one" for that setup, so if you had two different systems that used two different HMDs and tracking, but both used the same Powerglove Minelli interface - the code couldn't be "shared" in a reasonable manner (yes, I know with the right symlinking and other buggery it could be accomplished within the current structure, but it isn't ideal). I was hoping the structure would be more like /plugins, with /input /output, and under those /controller /glove /wand and /hmd /motionplatform /cave, then under each /occulus /vive /google /example Or something like that. Am I wrong here? --- Ok - I know this is likely open source and thus can be changed, but I honestly wish that things like this offered (and marketed) a means - via plugins or something (and maybe this does - hence, marketed) - the ability to expand on what i/o devices are allowed. Sure - should the "main players" be featured? Of course. But what about those of us who might like to - oh, I don't know - throw on an old Forte VFX-1 and a Powerglove and go at it? Maybe we want to recreate the experience of using REND386? Or what if you have access to a Polhemus or Ascension magnetic tracking system (or any number of other "pro-level" tracking)? Or HMDs? Or other input devices? Or motion platforms? Maybe you're a developer of something completely new, and want to play in this same environment and make it compatible... Again - I haven't dug into the code, and maybe it's designed to accommodate these kinds of use cases. I'd just love to see that availability, if it exists, to be advertised more. I guess its because I get the same feeling around software released for my OS of choice, where Windows and Mac are prominently advertised, and Linux is at best, if it's offered at all, the classic step-child stuffed in a closet. As an aside, I never can figure out the argument that "we don't offer support for Linux because the market is so small, it isn't worth it for us" - well, if everyone keeps saying and doing that, what do you think will ultimately occur? Do you think that market will grow, stay the same, or shrink?

bibyte 7y ago

Maybe this is a stupid question but how would you click on something like this ? With your eyes or your hands ?

Yoric 7y ago
I tested a very, very early demo of this, and it used to be hands. I imagine it's still the case.
sp332 7y ago
For Oculus Go and Google Daydream, you have a tiny controller with a couple of buttons like the one at the bottom of this page: https://www.oculus.com/go/accessories/ https://www.oculus.com/go/accessories/ Instead of moving it physically "onto" a button in 3D space, you just "point" at the button using the controller, and then click. Here's a demo of what it looks like inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bxZlU-kbA&t=272 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93bxZlU-kbA&t=272
wongarsu 7y ago
Clicking in VR is usually done with your controller. The controller shines a virtual laser pointer making it easy to aim and click. Doing it with your eyes may be preferable long-term, but eye tracking isn't in consumer headsets yet.
- chipperyman573 7y ago
  "Easy" to aim and click may be a stretch... I have only ever tried the Vive's implementation before but it felt a lot like holding a laser pointer - basically impossible to get any precision because your hand vibrates so much in ways you don't realize.
- andybak 7y ago
  > Doing it with your eyes may be preferable long-term On the contrary, gaze control was forced upon us when phone-based VR had no access to a controller. It's actually rather unnatural. We look at many things without wanting to activate them so you have to have a secondary cue for "clicking". Usually a timer: "stare at this for x seconds" which means every interaction is an exercise in patience. Gesture control is probably the most natural if done well but when done badly it's fairly awful. I still can't master clicking on a v1 Hololens and I avoid using the thing without a clicker. Simple unobtrusive controllers are going to be the best bet for a fair while I suspect.

gtbono 7y ago

Sad that the daydream version on a Moto Z in Google Play gives me a "Your device isn't compatible with this version" for me even though I can run Daydream and other daydream apps

Fej 7y ago
It is meant only for standalone Daydream headsets. Why this is the case, I cannot fathom.
- sjs382 7y ago
  Wow, I had no idea those even existed! Thanks for clarifying.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  No support for desktop oculus? Really annoying.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  Even standalone headsets seem to be a crapshoot. It "runs" on my Lenovo Mirage, for example, but (last I checked) it's pretty crashy.
sjs382 7y ago
I get the same result with my Pixel 3 XL.
larsberg 7y ago
Unfortunately, we don't currently support phone-based Daydream or Gear VR devices. There's both a bunch of extra work to support all of the phone in/out/notification lifecycle scenarios and we have a pretty small engineering team and the long tail of phone/chipset-specific bugs is pretty substantial. We might evaluate support for it or Cardboard in the future, but for right now we're mainly focused on standalone headsets. That said, we're all in favor of people who want to sideload and play with it! https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/wiki/Sideload https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/wiki/Sidelo...

ilaksh 7y ago

Will it work for Oculus Quest?

cjbprime 7y ago
Yes, just announced.

ronreiter 7y ago

Oh man, I miss VRML :)

cr0sh 7y ago
In my collection of VR documents and software "artifacts" - I have a collection of QuickBasic 4.5 programs (source code) that this French team built (circa late 1990s IIRC) to generate various VRML models and "worlds" using code. I don't recall how abstracted it was, but I thought it unique enough to save it for my archive. I should really go through that collection and release it in some manner - I have tons of interesting stuff, much of which has disappeared from the web. Maybe an upload to archive.org would be in order...

Jonahgay 7y ago

I'm fcking hyped, VR browsing , can't wait to overheat my CPU.

Quekid5 7y ago

"Enter a New Dimension"... of what? I didn't advance beyond the opening screen. Is this going to educate me (mmm), seduce me (eww), stimulate me (eww/mmm?), or just going to advertise to me? The problem with all of these virtual-X or augmented-X is that they don't provide enough value to me -- as a consumer -- they're just "grand ideas" without any real value. I'm sure the gimmick effect has some value in and of itself, but c'mon.

lucb1e 7y ago
I also didn't quite understand the landing page. Enter a new dimension can be applied to anything. Scrolling further we find some VR brands, but the title made that clear already. Then your eyes are drawn to the moving game covers. So are they making an app store? Scrolling further, we find "Designed from the Virtual Ground Up". Ha-ha I see what they did there. And then comes the footer. Only now that I go back through it more slowly to write it up, I find this small text just before the end: "designed to tackle all of the new opportunities (and challenges) that come with browsing in VR". Oh it's a browser! Only after typing the comment about how I scrolled through the whole page and didn't find a meaningful statement, I noticed a line of text hidden between headlines and moving pictures that should have been the title.
- sdan 7y ago
  Yeah the page wasn't clear what it was until I saw the video on the Oculus page. Thought they were releasing a headset or something.
amelius 7y ago
Enter a new Dimension ... or just be disappointed for the fact that you need a VR headset.
- stan_rogers 7y ago
  Well, no... you can also use a holographic projector if you have one.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

Is there any particular reason they can't offer a damn .exe so I can try this out with my Index? I'm sure the copy on Viveport would work, but I don't want to install Viveport. :( Edit: Their Github page has releases, but they're all APK's? https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/releases https://github.com/MozillaReality/FirefoxReality/releases Edit2: Oh, it's for "standalone" headsets. Never mind I guess...

sirsuki 7y ago
Any reason iOS is excluded? Last I checked they still have a good share of the mobile user bases out there.
- dingo_bat 7y ago
  There's no standalone VR headsets running ios.
- etatoby 7y ago
  I'm not aware of any iOS-based VR headsets. They are probably not targeting the el-cheapo cardboard variety.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  Firefox IOS uses the safari browser because Apple's walled garden is off limits for browsers that are not based on that. So, that makes shipping a VR browser without the Firefox internals impossible/impractical. In this case, it's not only a browser but a content store that is not iTunes, which complicates things further.
larsberg 7y ago
Thanks! We don't currently have a build of Firefox Reality available for desktop devices, but that work is currently underway. We announced it as part of our deal with HTC and are excited to show it off soon: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/01/08/mozilla-announces-deal-to-bring-firefox-reality-to-htc-vive-devices/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2019/01/08/mozilla-announces-d...

AcerbicZero 7y ago

Until Mozilla fixes Firefox and stops treating users like children, I will continue to use other browser options. What a slow sad death :(

deleted 7y ago

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jvehent 7y ago

Firefox Reality is a version of Firefox targeted at VR headsets. You can install it from the store of the Oculus Quest (the headset I own, I imagine others are supported). It's not meant to run on a regular workstation. The interesting feature of this browser is navigating VR ready websites that provide an immersive experience (aka. webvr). You can also browse the regular web from your headsets, of course, but that's not particularly exciting.

nicholascamera 7y ago
It is very odd how vague their product description page is. Naming a product Firefox Reality seems like good marketing: what could be a better brand than all of Reality? However in reality, their site doesn’t say exactly what parent says: Firefox Reality is a browser built for (standalone) XR devices.
- JadeNB 7y ago
  > It is very odd how vague their product description page is. Surely the oddity is solved by postulating that it is a marketing strategy to build interest?
- ACow_Adonis 7y ago
  I'm assuming that's a typo and you meant VR, given that I've never heard of XR, and thus wouldn't really be an improvement in terms of vagueness...
  - neiman 7y ago
    No, XR is a thing now. It's a general name for VR, AR and MR (mixed reality). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Reality_(XR) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Reality_(XR)
larsberg 7y ago
Thanks! We also find that a lot of our users really like watching 360 or even 2D videos, taking advantage of the ability to resize the screen to get their own personal theater. Right now, we only have Firefox Reality available for standalone VR headsets, but we're bringing the experience to desktop VR and a variety of standalone AR headsets in the second half of this year.

neiman 7y ago

My problem with the whole VR world, Firefox Reality included, is that it requires me to use stores, open accounts, and do all kind of stuff that seems to me unnecessary. Do I get it wrong?

gfodor 7y ago
Firefox Reality includes support for WebVR, so you can use web based VR applications through the browser. Part of the reason you might choose to install Firefox Reality on your VR headset is because it's important to you that developers of VR apps always have an option to use the web to share their apps, which will avoid forcing their users in the way you mention. We've built a social VR application called Hubs (hubs.mozilla.com) to showcase the potential of web based VR applications.
- neiman 7y ago
  Thanks for the answer.

dyarosla 7y ago

A little off topic, but what a world we live in when a prominent browser maker is advertising a new browser with a webpage that doesn’t properly display its main tagline on small devices (iPhone SE) https://i.imgur.com/WkqsUEZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium https://i.imgur.com/WkqsUEZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&f... If they can’t get it right, what does that say about the state of the web as a platform?

stevenhubertron 7y ago
If its like the analytics for the 45MM users I get on the sites I manage the SE traffic is less than 0.5%. And to be clear, its not broken, the alignment is slightly off: https://imgur.com/a/GBLe5Jt https://imgur.com/a/GBLe5Jt I would totally let this pass QA for such a minority view.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dyarosla 7y ago
  1) I didn’t say broken, I said ‘doesn’t properly display‘. 2) How many other smaller phones exist on the market? It’s disingenuous to say it’s .5%. This is not some complex item- it should simply not look like this. If the simple stuff is misaligned, what can you expect the rest of the page and more complex items to work like?
OkGoDoIt 7y ago
Even Apple doesn’t care about the iPhone SE anymore. I installed the iOS 13 beta on my iPhone SE and in several places the built in apps or parts of the operating system don’t properly fit on the screen. It’s a shame
SquareWheel 7y ago
Most websites break around the 300px mark, even when responsive. According to Chrome's dev tools the iPhone SE has a 320px width. Alignment issues are going to be common on that device.

zmmmmm 7y ago

Seems a little bit weird to call this "Reality" - the word "Virtual" is not incidental the meaning of the phrase "Virtual Reality", taking it away completely reverses the meaning. It's almost like this is an April Fool's joke.

wutbrodo 7y ago
Branding doesn't need to be literal, just evocative. The word reality is often mentioned in trippy or philosophical contexts, which is the connotation that the term "virtual reality" is trying to evoke. The brand strategy didn't work for you, but I don't think it's a particularly unreasonable one, and I think plenty of people will tap into the connotations they were going for.

partiallypro 7y ago

I swear if I get a client that says their site isn't Oculus ready, I'm going to be upset.

tyingq 7y ago

I'm curious if Firefox has considered a GSuite competitor. Their IOT/home-router offering looks great, and a similarly privacy-first GSuite might get a lot of cross sell.

bytematic 7y ago
That would be cool but a beast of a project and a hard sell to big business. Maybe start with email/calendar/etc. first
- nfoz 7y ago
  I think you've just come full-circle to Mozilla Thunderbird which has been around since 2003. - https://www.thunderbird.net/ https://www.thunderbird.net/ - https://www.thunderbird.net/calendar/ https://www.thunderbird.net/calendar/
  - cesarb 7y ago
    It's from even earlier, since from what I recall it's a direct descendant of the email client which was part of Netscape Navigator in the late 90s.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    I was thinking some version of privacy centric webmail + suite (yes, I get the issue). The market for Thunderbird is just too niche.
    - kwijibob 7y ago
      Mozilla should partner with Libreoffice to make their web version a polished competitor to GSuite.
      - tyingq 7y ago
        Web Libreoffice plus a decent integrated webmail implementation seems like it would do well. Several companies are charging $5+/month/user for less, and are doing well, right now.

yarrel 7y ago

I'm looking forward to Firefox supporting OpenXR, which will open it up to all the headsets supported on GNU/Linux by OpenHMD via Monado.

StevePoling 7y ago

Wind power really needs something to level demand—either a battery scheme such as Tesla is selling or pumped storage (where you pump water uphill when the wind is blowing and let it flow downhill when it isn’t) it’s

DangitBobby 7y ago
I think you commented on the wrong thing

als0 7y ago

A bit off topic - but does anyone remember VRML? Did it die out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRML

gattilorenz 7y ago
Absolutely. When I was a kid I did not have any internet access, and most of the software was from CDs from magazines. One of them had a VRML world+editor that I still remember fondly. I should try to see if the CD is still readable...
- dguaraglia 7y ago
  You should check on cd.textfiles.com. They have the content of a bunch of those old CDs that would come with magazines. I've spent more time than I'd like to admit download content from textfiles.com and reminiscing of the pre-ubiquitous-internet world :)
bri3d 7y ago
Yes and yes, mostly. Some libraries (like three.js) still support loading "Classic VRML" as a scene format, but I don't think it's a popular target these days. On a similar nostalgia train, does anyone else remember Cycore Cult3D? It was a sort-of-WebGL-ish browser plugin targeted at rendering 3D parts and product views in the browser.

djhaskin987 7y ago

Mozilla has really gone off the rails. They have deprioritized html 5 compliance and keep chasing spectres like VR and mobile. I really wish they'd just stick to making sure there's a solid, viable alternative to chrome, instead of getting distracted like this.

mikedilger 7y ago
I noticed a few months back that the Servo engine (upon which I was building a play/experimental browser) development had shifted significantly in the direction of Mixed Reality (it shifted more than a few months back, but I was not paying that close of attention). At that point I gave up on my browser project. Some execs at Mozilla think MR is the wave of the future. I think it's mostly a party trick with a very niche market and will always only be a niche market, and wasting top talent on MR seriously detracts from a project that is a hundred-fold more important. But maybe that's just me.
- tempay 7y ago
  > MR seriously detracts from a project that is a hundred-fold more important I have mixed feeling about this. I’m inclined to agree with you however if it did take off it could mean the difference between Firefox dying and becoming the market leader.
IshKebab 7y ago
I don't think mobile is a mistake, as long as Chrome mobile doesn't have as blocking there's at least one very good reason to use Firefox, also the reader viewer is a life saver. VR seems like a huge waste of resources though. Yes I think it will take off in the next 10 years, but are people really going to be using VR to browse the web? And can you really make good VR apps in JavaScript? I doubt it. People still don't use WebGL/WASM for traditional 3D games which are less demanding.
- Vinnl 7y ago
  > VR seems like a huge waste of resources though. Yes I think it will take off in the next 10 years, but are people really going to be using VR to browse the web? You could've asked something similar 12 years ago: sure, smartphones will probably take off, but are people really going to be using those small devices to browse the web? Mozilla missed that boat; they can't afford to miss this one if it's going to take off. Weighing that against investing resources now, at a time when they're financially healthy, makes it a pretty sane direction in my view.

pittsthebitts 7y ago

I have a hard time believing browsing the Internet will ever be in a form like this unless we find an easier way to input information than typing on a keyboard. It's just too much energy.

mosselman 7y ago

How about making Firefox work on mac without having to put it in low-res mode?