10 ms·

FDA names dog-food brands with potential link to canine heart disease

166 points by colinprince 7y ago

myth_buster 7y ago
> It’s important to note that the FDA doesn’t yet know how certain diets may be associated with DCM in some dogs. From my read, it's an ongoing research and no results/conclusions have been reached yet. They are posting names of brands as an effort to "being transparent with their investigation".
bitcurious 7y ago
I wonder if this might’ve be explained by owner income, high income being correlated with both grain free food and expensive pathology reports on dogs that suddenly passed away.
- sergers 7y ago
  Very possible A dog can suddenly die from dcm, most dog owners dont perform an autopsy and there isn't much post mortem services available altogether. I had the chance to get it diagnosed, the work put into the initial analysis ran up to nearly $5000(the treatment plan was for 10k, not including the potential 6 medicines and weekly blood analysis/vet visits, ecg if he did make it) Not everyone has this option to afford it, nor does every pet have the time to reach diagnosis based on their condition. I have a friend who fed his dog the cheapest kibble from grocery store, the dog suddenly passed. He seeked an autopsy, nothing much could be done post-mortem. That was the end of it. The dog could have had dcm, or something else, but not enough work done in this field of dog cardiology. He definitely was not feeding it grain free legumes diet food. Zignature is one of the most expensive brands($110 a month worth of food i was paying), I would think owners purchasing this would be enabled to also afford expensive services to diagnose DCM more than others
  - masonic 7y ago
    s/autopsy/necropsy/g
- aaronbrethorst 7y ago
  Very possible. e.g.: FDA has observed a reporting bias for breeds like Golden Retrievers due to breed-specific social media groups and activities that have raised awareness of the issue in these communities and urged owners and vets to submit reports to FDA. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-invest...
- sgnelson 7y ago
  Yes, very much so. Golden Retrievers being the number one reported case, indicates to me that is at least partly the case here. Golden Retriever owners are a cult. (I'm a member.)
sergers 7y ago
My purebreed english bulldog 9 years old ate zignature kangaroo for past 2 years Zignature has the top most dcm cases from this report. He was diagnosed with DCM 2 nights ago. We had to put him down last night. Not sure if there is a relation, we never got a chance to validate his taurine levels but put him on taurine supplement, but there wasn't enough time to see the effect as he got worse with breathing and bloating do to the DCM and myocardial arithmia, was in severe cardiac arrest. I read on the possible link and the vet mentioned it could be related yesterday. He was born with an enlarged heart, so dont know if that's related. Who knows... we will miss him, I wish there was more we could have done. Also want to point out we did do 50% BARF diet, my dog had alot of allergy and supposedly did have gluten intolerance. Barf was not always feasible to give being on the road alot, so we also fed him zignature. Since he was on it, alot of his conditions cleared up and I would say he was doing better overall health than on other brands (royal canine) till recently. More work needs to be done before I would blame the brand.
- saganus 7y ago
  That sucks big time. Sorry for your loss.
  - sergers 7y ago
    Thanks
- ska 7y ago
  I'm saddened that you are going through this now, it is a hard time.
  - sergers 7y ago
    Thanks
- rangibaby 7y ago
  Sorry for your loss. I know it sucks but ~10 years is a pretty normal lifespan for a dog. I expect purebreds would be on the shorter side too.
nyjah 7y ago
Jesus, thats like every dog food brand.
- heartbreak 7y ago
  Absent of the major brands like Hill’s and Purina?
xwdv 7y ago
This is why I always advocate for people to look into a BARF diet for their dogs, but too many people are squeamish about it. Some of the most powerful and healthy dogs I’ve seen all eat BARF. Some seem to go to great lengths to watch what they eat for their own bodies, but never their dogs.
- singlow 7y ago
  But most of these are non-traditional low-grain or no grain feeds. Why would you advocate something even more radical in the same direction as a solution? If removing grain is correlated then BARF would not be the answer. Not that we know grain is the issue even, but why do you think BARF solves the problem in the FDA report?
  - joemaller1 7y ago
    Raw food spoils. Kibble lasts a disturbingly long time.
    - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
      So does jerky. Your point?
    - maccard 7y ago
      Pickled veg, cured meat, canned veg all last disturbingly long times and yet we eat them. Just because something has a long shelf life doesn't instantly make it bad. Similarly, something that spoils (kids fromage frais yoghurts are just sugar relaly) isn't necessarily good.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  As I had to Google it - apparently BARF is "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food". I have to say I get the concept. Dogs just didn't evolve to eat the weird hard little grain-based pellets that a lot of people feed to them. Then again, humans didn't evolve to eat a modern Western diet either. Considering the number of fat and unhealthy dogs I see is starting to rival the number of fat and unhealthy people, perhaps that tells us something.
miles_matthias 7y ago
We took some time to learn the history of dry dog food and what modern companies have been doing, and recently switched our dog over to a wet food that gets shipped to our house every 2 weeks. It's been a great move, she loves it. And we feel better about giving her less processed food.
- skeptical9000 7y ago
  Please elaborate, maybe with wet food brand. Sincerely, concerned owner.
  - sydd 7y ago
    look up BARF food, it's the best for the dog IMO, barely processed. we buy it in deep frozen big packs (essentialy frozen whole meat, not just some meat pasta) 1-2 times a month. The brand is Graf Barf, dunno if it's in the US.
    - maccard 7y ago
      Given the topic is an FDA recall of a trendy diet which sounds better (grain free, high meat protein content), are there any studies which look at a BARF diet? I'm a dog owner cnsidering what to feed my pup, and right now I'm leaning towards sticking to Royal Canin based on the information available to us.
      - invokestatic 7y ago
        While I can’t speak to your question, I spoke to my mom (veterinarian) about this after reading this thread and asked her specifically about BARF. She said that in most patients she’s seen on those diets, their bloodwork has been all over the place. She said it’s because when dogs ate meat in the wild, they were actually indirectly eating an omnivore diet, because their prey had plants and grains in their guts. Additionally, she’s noticed some really nasty and hard to detect parasites which she suspects originates from these types of diets. Of course, this is anecdotal. She recommends a name-brand dog food because they’re all well-tested, and says to not worry about feeding meat to your dogs because they can produce the necessary amino acids themselves. Consult your veterinarian for dietary advice for your specific animal. You should trust their level-headed advice over emotionally-driven decisions from owners. It’s refreshing to see a skeptical comment like yours, and I too find it interesting a lot of people reporting jumping ship from one trendy diet to another.
Zenst 7y ago
I, and I'm sure many others was unaware that the FDA had anything to do with pet food - pleasantly supprised and does make sense.
- danso 7y ago
  Pet food recalls are issued through the FDA: https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety...
jmilloy 7y ago
Better link, with links to more specific studies and updates (including the June 2019 update): https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-invest... I guess it is good that they are being transparent with the data, but it is largely useless at this point as it isn't normalized at all and is in a way self-reported. You obviously can't conclude that chicken is bad and goat is good, but you can't really conclude anything else either. One potential mechanism is the taurine levels but the set of DCM cases contain low, normal, and high levels of taurine at similar rates. I think they are doing a reasonably good job, though. There are a number of controlled (though small sample size) studies ongoing.
- dang 7y ago
  OK, we've changed to that from https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/dog-food-dcm-fda-1.5199186 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/dog-food-dcm-fda-1.5199186. Thanks!
ebg13 7y ago
A very good friend of mine who is a laboratory veterinarian once told me that the most important difference between niche brands like these and major players like Purina is that Purina actually dedicates massive resources to longitudinal testing of their products for things like all cause mortality, and hippie brands can't or don't.
- gtirloni 7y ago
  I can confirm the same happens with Mars products (Whiskas, Pedigree, Royal Canin, etc). They have impressive facilities for that kind of testing. Disclosure: worked at Mars a few years ago.
  - ebg13 7y ago
    Yeah, I didn't mean to put Purina specifically on a pedestal as the only company doing it (originally I had this long list and then went ugh they'll probably know what I mean if I just put one). Just that these "your pet is a wild animal!" emotional insecurity brands slap an AAFCO tag on and call it a day or haven't been around for long enough to have any meaningful data. Like...animals in the wild don't live very long, yo! Maybe pretending that your Boston Terrier is the king of the jungle isn't so good for him.
- jliptzin 7y ago
  I also have a good friend who is a vet who laughs at people spending 5x as much on hippie dog food brands that either don’t do anything good or make things worse. He has had 4 dogs all live past 15 and only fed them the cheapest big brand name pet foods.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Sometimes it’s an enterprising vet at fault: oh, your pet has ______ and needs a special diet containing _____, which we just happen to sell and you can’t find at a big box store. Now the vet has turned your pet into a recurring revenue source beyond labour-intensive checkups. It’s kinda like Luxxottica: a lot of their brands are only available through brick and mortal clinics. You can’t buy them through an online provider because they won’t sell to them.
Paul-ish 7y ago
This sounds like it has potential for a class action.
graeme 7y ago
Did the FDA account for sales volumes? Their release only mentions frequency of reports. It would be natural for more popular brands to show up more: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-issues-third-status-report-investigation-potential-connection-between-certain-diets-and-cases https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-issu...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
otherme123 7y ago
This is "investigation conclusions done wrong", specifically a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation" and "normalize your data" working at full speed. Heck, it seems to me they are just publishing the data collected along with a 10 minutes "analysis": lets aggregate this, average that, some bar plots and ready to go online. And to add salt to the injury, they publish brand names. This is the way "vaccines causes autism" nonsense reach the public and stay there forever. Even if a retraction, correction or refine of the conclusions is published in 6 months it will never have the impact of this release, and many will think "they are paid by the affected brands to say that".
- gilrain 7y ago
  Not a good analogy. "Vaccines cause autism" reached the public via a doctor straight-up lying and falsifying data so that he could profit on a new vaccine he hoped would replace the old one. Just another grifting charlatan, albeit one who is now responsible for inestimable damage to humanity.
jayess 7y ago
My dog's brand isn't listed, but it seems like pea protein is a common denominator. My dog's "grain free" food has pea protein as one of its top ingredients. I just switched him back to regular wet dog food. I'm beginning to think organ meat is necessary for canines. And reading through these comments has lead me to start looking into a BARF diet. Coincidentally I also noticed this article yesterday on allergic reactions in humans to pea protein: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/food-allergy-pea-protein-1.5118978 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/food-allergy-pea-protein-1.51...
- technothrasher 7y ago
  Just be sure you read decent, science based material on the BARF diet rather than just anicdotal forum post and people pitching their 'alternative' products. I've seen a very large cross section of pro-"raw food" and anti-vax attitudes in pet owners. That should be a huge red flag. Not that raw food is necessarily bad, but that the people pushing it are not often critical thinkers. https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.243.11.1549 https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.243.11....
  - slantyyz 7y ago
    If someone is thinking of doing it because they watched Pet Fooled on Netflix, I advise that they do additional research first. Raw isn't necessarily better or worse, but best to make as informed a decision as possible. I pasted this link elsewhere in the comments, but I found this vet's analyses of raw food to be useful: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/11/raw-diets-for-pets/ http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/11/raw-diets-for-pets/ --- As it relates to anti-vax attitudes in pet owners, I've seen a lot of it. My dogs have exhibited sensitivity/side effects to some vaccines, but I'm still pro vax. There are animals in my neighborhood that can spread diseases like rabies and parvo, so it's not like I can just forego the vaccinations. What we've done is work with our vet to spread out the vaccinations over longer periods of time, and separate some of the vaccinations (as opposed to having a multi-dose vaccination -- edit, I don't know if that's the right term, I'm talking about a single vaccination that prevents multiple diseases), and we've managed to mitigate most of the adverse reactions.
  - 7y ago
escanda 7y ago
I have been feeding my dog Taste of the Wild for three months until she started vomiting. I took her to the vet and it seems it's because some food allergy. At the moment she's taking Hill's I/D (the one with the darker pink tone) and she's alright, she stopped vomiting and she's just okay. I just talked to my vet and he's told me to give her Hill's I/D for one or two months to dicard other causes. From what I gather here from other comments it seems big brands have resources other brands don't although the quality of the ingredients may be lower although they are set in the right amount. I won't ever feed again my dog other food than big brands you can find on your vet. And of course I'll be feeding her food with grain.
cinnamonheart 7y ago
This has been frustrating to watch unfold. Of five major brands not implicated -- Purina, Royal Canin, Hill’s Science Diet, Eukanuba, and Iam’s -- we've tried four and they do not agree with my dog. The brands I have found that he thrives on, Fromm and Taste of the Wild, are listed here as possibly being linked to DCM (although he does well on non-grain-free Fromm). It has been a struggle finding an ideal food not linked to DCM but also agreeable to my dog.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  My anecdotal issue is I did use Taste of the Wild for a year or so before switching to Victors but not long after my male dog developed all sorts of issue, yet can I truly attribute them to the food or his age (14?). However from the article I cannot figure out, how long after the diet was changed before symptoms were noticed?
cannonedhamster 7y ago
This seems reckless to release names without a causal relationship defined. The only thing they seem to be able to determine is that in some breeds, some dog foods that are really common, might possibly be related to the disease. That's kind of like saying that because nearly every human eats vegetables on a regular basis, vegetables must cause cancer and heart disease since those are the two major causes of deaths in humans. I've had numerous dogs on one of the listed brands, not a single one has died of this disease.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Unlike most people, dogs usually get fed majority of food from single sources. Thus causality is relatively strong in comparison to other observational studies.
  - trappist 7y ago
    It's not though. Establishing Brand X as a cause doesn't tell you what ingredient, or what missing nutrient, or what other feature of that brand's food is causing the problem. What value is there in that? You can switch brands, but you have no way to know the new food isn't worse than the old food. And if you're the producer, you have no knowledge of how to improve your food - might as well just close up shop because ... the brand is the cause?
    - krageon 7y ago
      Gathering the data is a step in the right direction, and publishing it is the only ethical thing to do.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  This seems reckless to release names without a causal relationship defined. One potential upside: It can foster additional research to try to pinpoint the critical information. Keeping the list secret impedes potential new research. Certainly it's reasonable for people to put out disclaimers and warnings that this isn't really sufficient information to base decisions upon etc. But that's different from saying we shouldn't have the info at all and it's reckless to put it out there.
tomohawk 7y ago
We feed one of our dogs Blue Buffalo. He thrives on it after years of methodically trying other brands. He's 13. During our quest, we also found that the best supplement was fish oil (pollock). Prior to the fish oil, he had all kinds of skin problems and inflammation. The fish oil was beneficial and required regardless of dog food brand we tried.
TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
This is particularly interesting to me, as I became aware dogs can eat legumes shortly after I got my two rescues. Their typical died consists of a mixture of green or yellow split peas, pressure cooked for 43 minutes, then blended to a medium-thickness liquid, and cooked brown rice. This then gets mixed with raw mince (typically kangaroo or chicken), and grated / finely chopped raw vegetables consisting of one or more of the following: carrots, sweet potatoes, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage. They also get raw meat bones (lamb, kangaroo, chicken), as well as raw eggs. Oh yeah, they also low apples, particularly fujis, and berries. So the mixed food I make often contains chopped apples or frozen mixed berries. I generally never feed them the same ratio, or same things consistently. Some weeks the mix I make them will have no peas, another week no rice, another week no meat. They often skip meals, or have fast days where they get no food only water and exercise, as I believe dogs are opportunistic scavengers well suited to gorging and fasting. I rarely feed them any off the shelf dog food. I can see the difference when I feed them off the shelf food, as their poops turn to, shall I say, shit. Whereas the mixture of cooked peas and rice, plus raw veg and meat and bones, makes their poop easy to pass, and well formed. With regards to dry dog food, canned dog food, and those dog-roll things... Can you imagine eating nothing but dry dog food most your life? Or nothing but canned food most of your life? Or nothing but luncheon meat / devon most your life? Tell me that isn't going to have long term health consequences.
- zemvpferreira 7y ago
  The problem being that this data points in the exact opposite direction: animals developing fatal diseases after being fed more “natural” diets. I used to be a proponent of raw diets for dogs, but I can’t pick a natural fallacy over clinical reality. Poop quality being whatever it is.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    I disagree. Have a look at the chart in the article ( https://www.fda.gov/files/dog_food_formulations_in_dcm_reports_to_fda.png https://www.fda.gov/files/dog_food_formulations_in_dcm_repor... ) where it says Review of the canine reports shows that most reports were for dry dog food formulations, but raw food, semi-moist food, and wet foods were also represented. Edit to add: also, the 'more natural' diets indicated by the article are these niche pet food formulations that try to be more natural, but are just as cooked / processed as any other similar type of pet food, and potentially worse because, as others have pointed out, these niche brands lack the longitudinal research capacity of the big brands. Whereas my formulation is, as many have pointed out when they see what I'm making for my dogs, pretty much exactly what I eat: fresh raw and cooked vegetables, meats, and beans. If a fairly natural diet of raw and cooked foods kills me and my dogs, we're all fucked and might as well give up now.
eternalny1 7y ago
This makes no sense ... first they say: "Although the FDA first received a few sporadic reports of DCM as early as 2014, the vast majority of the reports were submitted after the agency notified the public about the potential DCM/diet issue in July 2018." Then at the end of the article ... "Another puzzling aspect of the recent spike in DCM cases is that they have occurred just in the last few years. " It's not puzzling, it's because that's when the public was notified and more people reported cases!
Justsignedup 7y ago
Even the FDA notes, there's no definitive evidence, more studies needed. This is one of those "EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE maybe possibly". A bad report. This will turn people off from listening to the FDA. I would have expected more research before releasing.
readhn 7y ago
I never understood the whole "dry dog food diet" and expecting dogs to be healthy long term. Imagine yourself eating dry crackers all your life. Its sad. Maybe its just me but dogs need to eat actual meat and bones and real veggies. I grew up with our dog eating normal food: remains of the meats we ate, bones, lightly cooked meat purchased separately, certain vegetables etc. etc. One day, we did buy dry dog food for him. He came up, looked at it, turned around and walked away. The next day we gave dry food away. We "spoiled" him with good normal food. People might say its expensive. But really, looking at the thousands and thousands of dollars pet owners spend on their dogs already normal food prepared smartly is not that expensive. Honestly if you cant afford to feed your dog/cat properly maybe you should not have a pet at all.
- matwood 7y ago
  My wife makes our dogs food once/month. The cost comes out to about the same as one of the expensive brands of kibble. She does have to cook everything which takes a few hours though.
  - readhn 7y ago
    I mean duh you'd cook food for your child and not feed him/her crackers. The same goes for dogs/cats. They are family members and deserve to eat god food too.
rietta 7y ago
Oh no! My golden retriever mix is eating an Acana grain free dry food. Going to have to find something else.
waffle_ss 7y ago
Well this is upsetting. Our golden retriever died suddenly just shy of two years of age (very young) several years ago. She was fed Fromm Family Gold exclusively due to our breeder's recommendation. The food was expensive and I remember thinking how well she must be eating as it had so many kinds of meats and fat in it (including stuff like duck IIRC). Fromm is one of the brands listed by the FDA and golden retrievers are clearly hardest hit by this. We did have a necropsy performed however it was inconclusive. She got a ton of exercise though as I took her to doggy daycare a majority of days during the week and our kid at home played with her often. Really sad that we apparently unknowingly did everything wrong (but with the best intentions) to ensure our dog died an early death. Fuck.
- ilikepi 7y ago
  I am very sorry for your loss. It always sad to deal with the death of a pet, but it's especially hard when they're so young and it's so sudden. I hope you will consider that this report is discussing early stages of research, not conclusive findings. I don't think it's fair to beat yourself up for "doing everything wrong" when there's still so much uncertainty.
ricelamb 7y ago
I can't believe noone has mentioned Sportsman's Pride yet. Their lamb + rice blend is the best thing ever for allergies and rashes and et cetera, and the whole brand is very good. They also have cat food, but the point was that their lamb+rice mix is really good for dog itches dog allergies et cetera. Recommend it.
- sustained19 7y ago
  This is the direct link to their Lamb Meal And Rice Formula dog food. Works really great for itches allergies and et cetera: https://www.sportsmanspride.com/lamb-meal-rice-formula-dog-food https://www.sportsmanspride.com/lamb-meal-rice-formula-dog-f...
- protofeeder 7y ago
  Sportsman's Pride is one of the only brands that aren't overly processed. And their results speak for themselves. Until you fully convert to Sportsman's Pride yourself that is. Only masochists and psychopaths could consider anything else. Go for the best.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Oh yeah this entirely greenbean subthread is totally believable. I'll change our regimen immediately!

166 points by colinprince 7y ago

> It’s important to note that the FDA doesn’t yet know how certain diets may be associated with DCM in some dogs. From my read, it's an ongoing research and no results/conclusions have been reached yet. They are posting names of brands as an effort to "being transparent with their investigation".

bitcurious 7y ago

I wonder if this might’ve be explained by owner income, high income being correlated with both grain free food and expensive pathology reports on dogs that suddenly passed away.

sergers 7y ago
Very possible A dog can suddenly die from dcm, most dog owners dont perform an autopsy and there isn't much post mortem services available altogether. I had the chance to get it diagnosed, the work put into the initial analysis ran up to nearly $5000(the treatment plan was for 10k, not including the potential 6 medicines and weekly blood analysis/vet visits, ecg if he did make it) Not everyone has this option to afford it, nor does every pet have the time to reach diagnosis based on their condition. I have a friend who fed his dog the cheapest kibble from grocery store, the dog suddenly passed. He seeked an autopsy, nothing much could be done post-mortem. That was the end of it. The dog could have had dcm, or something else, but not enough work done in this field of dog cardiology. He definitely was not feeding it grain free legumes diet food. Zignature is one of the most expensive brands($110 a month worth of food i was paying), I would think owners purchasing this would be enabled to also afford expensive services to diagnose DCM more than others
- masonic 7y ago
  s/autopsy/necropsy/g
aaronbrethorst 7y ago
Very possible. e.g.: FDA has observed a reporting bias for breeds like Golden Retrievers due to breed-specific social media groups and activities that have raised awareness of the issue in these communities and urged owners and vets to submit reports to FDA. https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-invest...
sgnelson 7y ago
Yes, very much so. Golden Retrievers being the number one reported case, indicates to me that is at least partly the case here. Golden Retriever owners are a cult. (I'm a member.)

sergers 7y ago

My purebreed english bulldog 9 years old ate zignature kangaroo for past 2 years Zignature has the top most dcm cases from this report. He was diagnosed with DCM 2 nights ago. We had to put him down last night. Not sure if there is a relation, we never got a chance to validate his taurine levels but put him on taurine supplement, but there wasn't enough time to see the effect as he got worse with breathing and bloating do to the DCM and myocardial arithmia, was in severe cardiac arrest. I read on the possible link and the vet mentioned it could be related yesterday. He was born with an enlarged heart, so dont know if that's related. Who knows... we will miss him, I wish there was more we could have done. Also want to point out we did do 50% BARF diet, my dog had alot of allergy and supposedly did have gluten intolerance. Barf was not always feasible to give being on the road alot, so we also fed him zignature. Since he was on it, alot of his conditions cleared up and I would say he was doing better overall health than on other brands (royal canine) till recently. More work needs to be done before I would blame the brand.

saganus 7y ago
That sucks big time. Sorry for your loss.
- sergers 7y ago
  Thanks
ska 7y ago
I'm saddened that you are going through this now, it is a hard time.
- sergers 7y ago
  Thanks
rangibaby 7y ago
Sorry for your loss. I know it sucks but ~10 years is a pretty normal lifespan for a dog. I expect purebreds would be on the shorter side too.

nyjah 7y ago

Jesus, thats like every dog food brand.

heartbreak 7y ago
Absent of the major brands like Hill’s and Purina?

xwdv 7y ago

This is why I always advocate for people to look into a BARF diet for their dogs, but too many people are squeamish about it. Some of the most powerful and healthy dogs I’ve seen all eat BARF. Some seem to go to great lengths to watch what they eat for their own bodies, but never their dogs.

singlow 7y ago
But most of these are non-traditional low-grain or no grain feeds. Why would you advocate something even more radical in the same direction as a solution? If removing grain is correlated then BARF would not be the answer. Not that we know grain is the issue even, but why do you think BARF solves the problem in the FDA report?
- joemaller1 7y ago
  Raw food spoils. Kibble lasts a disturbingly long time.
  - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
    So does jerky. Your point?
  - maccard 7y ago
    Pickled veg, cured meat, canned veg all last disturbingly long times and yet we eat them. Just because something has a long shelf life doesn't instantly make it bad. Similarly, something that spoils (kids fromage frais yoghurts are just sugar relaly) isn't necessarily good.
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
As I had to Google it - apparently BARF is "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food". I have to say I get the concept. Dogs just didn't evolve to eat the weird hard little grain-based pellets that a lot of people feed to them. Then again, humans didn't evolve to eat a modern Western diet either. Considering the number of fat and unhealthy dogs I see is starting to rival the number of fat and unhealthy people, perhaps that tells us something.

miles_matthias 7y ago

We took some time to learn the history of dry dog food and what modern companies have been doing, and recently switched our dog over to a wet food that gets shipped to our house every 2 weeks. It's been a great move, she loves it. And we feel better about giving her less processed food.

skeptical9000 7y ago
Please elaborate, maybe with wet food brand. Sincerely, concerned owner.
- sydd 7y ago
  look up BARF food, it's the best for the dog IMO, barely processed. we buy it in deep frozen big packs (essentialy frozen whole meat, not just some meat pasta) 1-2 times a month. The brand is Graf Barf, dunno if it's in the US.
  - maccard 7y ago
    Given the topic is an FDA recall of a trendy diet which sounds better (grain free, high meat protein content), are there any studies which look at a BARF diet? I'm a dog owner cnsidering what to feed my pup, and right now I'm leaning towards sticking to Royal Canin based on the information available to us.
    - invokestatic 7y ago
      While I can’t speak to your question, I spoke to my mom (veterinarian) about this after reading this thread and asked her specifically about BARF. She said that in most patients she’s seen on those diets, their bloodwork has been all over the place. She said it’s because when dogs ate meat in the wild, they were actually indirectly eating an omnivore diet, because their prey had plants and grains in their guts. Additionally, she’s noticed some really nasty and hard to detect parasites which she suspects originates from these types of diets. Of course, this is anecdotal. She recommends a name-brand dog food because they’re all well-tested, and says to not worry about feeding meat to your dogs because they can produce the necessary amino acids themselves. Consult your veterinarian for dietary advice for your specific animal. You should trust their level-headed advice over emotionally-driven decisions from owners. It’s refreshing to see a skeptical comment like yours, and I too find it interesting a lot of people reporting jumping ship from one trendy diet to another.

Zenst 7y ago

I, and I'm sure many others was unaware that the FDA had anything to do with pet food - pleasantly supprised and does make sense.

danso 7y ago
Pet food recalls are issued through the FDA: https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety...

jmilloy 7y ago

Better link, with links to more specific studies and updates (including the June 2019 update): https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/news-events/fda-invest... I guess it is good that they are being transparent with the data, but it is largely useless at this point as it isn't normalized at all and is in a way self-reported. You obviously can't conclude that chicken is bad and goat is good, but you can't really conclude anything else either. One potential mechanism is the taurine levels but the set of DCM cases contain low, normal, and high levels of taurine at similar rates. I think they are doing a reasonably good job, though. There are a number of controlled (though small sample size) studies ongoing.

dang 7y ago
OK, we've changed to that from https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/dog-food-dcm-fda-1.5199186 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/dog-food-dcm-fda-1.5199186. Thanks!

ebg13 7y ago

A very good friend of mine who is a laboratory veterinarian once told me that the most important difference between niche brands like these and major players like Purina is that Purina actually dedicates massive resources to longitudinal testing of their products for things like all cause mortality, and hippie brands can't or don't.

gtirloni 7y ago
I can confirm the same happens with Mars products (Whiskas, Pedigree, Royal Canin, etc). They have impressive facilities for that kind of testing. Disclosure: worked at Mars a few years ago.
- ebg13 7y ago
  Yeah, I didn't mean to put Purina specifically on a pedestal as the only company doing it (originally I had this long list and then went ugh they'll probably know what I mean if I just put one). Just that these "your pet is a wild animal!" emotional insecurity brands slap an AAFCO tag on and call it a day or haven't been around for long enough to have any meaningful data. Like...animals in the wild don't live very long, yo! Maybe pretending that your Boston Terrier is the king of the jungle isn't so good for him.
jliptzin 7y ago
I also have a good friend who is a vet who laughs at people spending 5x as much on hippie dog food brands that either don’t do anything good or make things worse. He has had 4 dogs all live past 15 and only fed them the cheapest big brand name pet foods.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Sometimes it’s an enterprising vet at fault: oh, your pet has ______ and needs a special diet containing _____, which we just happen to sell and you can’t find at a big box store. Now the vet has turned your pet into a recurring revenue source beyond labour-intensive checkups. It’s kinda like Luxxottica: a lot of their brands are only available through brick and mortal clinics. You can’t buy them through an online provider because they won’t sell to them.

Paul-ish 7y ago

This sounds like it has potential for a class action.

graeme 7y ago

Did the FDA account for sales volumes? Their release only mentions frequency of reports. It would be natural for more popular brands to show up more: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-issues-third-status-report-investigation-potential-connection-between-certain-diets-and-cases https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-issu...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

otherme123 7y ago

This is "investigation conclusions done wrong", specifically a case of "correlation doesn't imply causation" and "normalize your data" working at full speed. Heck, it seems to me they are just publishing the data collected along with a 10 minutes "analysis": lets aggregate this, average that, some bar plots and ready to go online. And to add salt to the injury, they publish brand names. This is the way "vaccines causes autism" nonsense reach the public and stay there forever. Even if a retraction, correction or refine of the conclusions is published in 6 months it will never have the impact of this release, and many will think "they are paid by the affected brands to say that".

gilrain 7y ago
Not a good analogy. "Vaccines cause autism" reached the public via a doctor straight-up lying and falsifying data so that he could profit on a new vaccine he hoped would replace the old one. Just another grifting charlatan, albeit one who is now responsible for inestimable damage to humanity.

jayess 7y ago

My dog's brand isn't listed, but it seems like pea protein is a common denominator. My dog's "grain free" food has pea protein as one of its top ingredients. I just switched him back to regular wet dog food. I'm beginning to think organ meat is necessary for canines. And reading through these comments has lead me to start looking into a BARF diet. Coincidentally I also noticed this article yesterday on allergic reactions in humans to pea protein: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/food-allergy-pea-protein-1.5118978 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/food-allergy-pea-protein-1.51...

technothrasher 7y ago
Just be sure you read decent, science based material on the BARF diet rather than just anicdotal forum post and people pitching their 'alternative' products. I've seen a very large cross section of pro-"raw food" and anti-vax attitudes in pet owners. That should be a huge red flag. Not that raw food is necessarily bad, but that the people pushing it are not often critical thinkers. https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.243.11.1549 https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.243.11....
- slantyyz 7y ago
  If someone is thinking of doing it because they watched Pet Fooled on Netflix, I advise that they do additional research first. Raw isn't necessarily better or worse, but best to make as informed a decision as possible. I pasted this link elsewhere in the comments, but I found this vet's analyses of raw food to be useful: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/11/raw-diets-for-pets/ http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/11/raw-diets-for-pets/ --- As it relates to anti-vax attitudes in pet owners, I've seen a lot of it. My dogs have exhibited sensitivity/side effects to some vaccines, but I'm still pro vax. There are animals in my neighborhood that can spread diseases like rabies and parvo, so it's not like I can just forego the vaccinations. What we've done is work with our vet to spread out the vaccinations over longer periods of time, and separate some of the vaccinations (as opposed to having a multi-dose vaccination -- edit, I don't know if that's the right term, I'm talking about a single vaccination that prevents multiple diseases), and we've managed to mitigate most of the adverse reactions.
- 7y ago

escanda 7y ago

I have been feeding my dog Taste of the Wild for three months until she started vomiting. I took her to the vet and it seems it's because some food allergy. At the moment she's taking Hill's I/D (the one with the darker pink tone) and she's alright, she stopped vomiting and she's just okay. I just talked to my vet and he's told me to give her Hill's I/D for one or two months to dicard other causes. From what I gather here from other comments it seems big brands have resources other brands don't although the quality of the ingredients may be lower although they are set in the right amount. I won't ever feed again my dog other food than big brands you can find on your vet. And of course I'll be feeding her food with grain.

cinnamonheart 7y ago

This has been frustrating to watch unfold. Of five major brands not implicated -- Purina, Royal Canin, Hill’s Science Diet, Eukanuba, and Iam’s -- we've tried four and they do not agree with my dog. The brands I have found that he thrives on, Fromm and Taste of the Wild, are listed here as possibly being linked to DCM (although he does well on non-grain-free Fromm). It has been a struggle finding an ideal food not linked to DCM but also agreeable to my dog.

Shivetya 7y ago
My anecdotal issue is I did use Taste of the Wild for a year or so before switching to Victors but not long after my male dog developed all sorts of issue, yet can I truly attribute them to the food or his age (14?). However from the article I cannot figure out, how long after the diet was changed before symptoms were noticed?

cannonedhamster 7y ago

This seems reckless to release names without a causal relationship defined. The only thing they seem to be able to determine is that in some breeds, some dog foods that are really common, might possibly be related to the disease. That's kind of like saying that because nearly every human eats vegetables on a regular basis, vegetables must cause cancer and heart disease since those are the two major causes of deaths in humans. I've had numerous dogs on one of the listed brands, not a single one has died of this disease.

AstralStorm 7y ago
Unlike most people, dogs usually get fed majority of food from single sources. Thus causality is relatively strong in comparison to other observational studies.
- trappist 7y ago
  It's not though. Establishing Brand X as a cause doesn't tell you what ingredient, or what missing nutrient, or what other feature of that brand's food is causing the problem. What value is there in that? You can switch brands, but you have no way to know the new food isn't worse than the old food. And if you're the producer, you have no knowledge of how to improve your food - might as well just close up shop because ... the brand is the cause?
  - krageon 7y ago
    Gathering the data is a step in the right direction, and publishing it is the only ethical thing to do.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
This seems reckless to release names without a causal relationship defined. One potential upside: It can foster additional research to try to pinpoint the critical information. Keeping the list secret impedes potential new research. Certainly it's reasonable for people to put out disclaimers and warnings that this isn't really sufficient information to base decisions upon etc. But that's different from saying we shouldn't have the info at all and it's reckless to put it out there.

tomohawk 7y ago

We feed one of our dogs Blue Buffalo. He thrives on it after years of methodically trying other brands. He's 13. During our quest, we also found that the best supplement was fish oil (pollock). Prior to the fish oil, he had all kinds of skin problems and inflammation. The fish oil was beneficial and required regardless of dog food brand we tried.

TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago

This is particularly interesting to me, as I became aware dogs can eat legumes shortly after I got my two rescues. Their typical died consists of a mixture of green or yellow split peas, pressure cooked for 43 minutes, then blended to a medium-thickness liquid, and cooked brown rice. This then gets mixed with raw mince (typically kangaroo or chicken), and grated / finely chopped raw vegetables consisting of one or more of the following: carrots, sweet potatoes, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage. They also get raw meat bones (lamb, kangaroo, chicken), as well as raw eggs. Oh yeah, they also low apples, particularly fujis, and berries. So the mixed food I make often contains chopped apples or frozen mixed berries. I generally never feed them the same ratio, or same things consistently. Some weeks the mix I make them will have no peas, another week no rice, another week no meat. They often skip meals, or have fast days where they get no food only water and exercise, as I believe dogs are opportunistic scavengers well suited to gorging and fasting. I rarely feed them any off the shelf dog food. I can see the difference when I feed them off the shelf food, as their poops turn to, shall I say, shit. Whereas the mixture of cooked peas and rice, plus raw veg and meat and bones, makes their poop easy to pass, and well formed. With regards to dry dog food, canned dog food, and those dog-roll things... Can you imagine eating nothing but dry dog food most your life? Or nothing but canned food most of your life? Or nothing but luncheon meat / devon most your life? Tell me that isn't going to have long term health consequences.

zemvpferreira 7y ago
The problem being that this data points in the exact opposite direction: animals developing fatal diseases after being fed more “natural” diets. I used to be a proponent of raw diets for dogs, but I can’t pick a natural fallacy over clinical reality. Poop quality being whatever it is.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  I disagree. Have a look at the chart in the article ( https://www.fda.gov/files/dog_food_formulations_in_dcm_reports_to_fda.png https://www.fda.gov/files/dog_food_formulations_in_dcm_repor... ) where it says Review of the canine reports shows that most reports were for dry dog food formulations, but raw food, semi-moist food, and wet foods were also represented. Edit to add: also, the 'more natural' diets indicated by the article are these niche pet food formulations that try to be more natural, but are just as cooked / processed as any other similar type of pet food, and potentially worse because, as others have pointed out, these niche brands lack the longitudinal research capacity of the big brands. Whereas my formulation is, as many have pointed out when they see what I'm making for my dogs, pretty much exactly what I eat: fresh raw and cooked vegetables, meats, and beans. If a fairly natural diet of raw and cooked foods kills me and my dogs, we're all fucked and might as well give up now.

eternalny1 7y ago

This makes no sense ... first they say: "Although the FDA first received a few sporadic reports of DCM as early as 2014, the vast majority of the reports were submitted after the agency notified the public about the potential DCM/diet issue in July 2018." Then at the end of the article ... "Another puzzling aspect of the recent spike in DCM cases is that they have occurred just in the last few years. " It's not puzzling, it's because that's when the public was notified and more people reported cases!

Justsignedup 7y ago

Even the FDA notes, there's no definitive evidence, more studies needed. This is one of those "EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE maybe possibly". A bad report. This will turn people off from listening to the FDA. I would have expected more research before releasing.

readhn 7y ago

I never understood the whole "dry dog food diet" and expecting dogs to be healthy long term. Imagine yourself eating dry crackers all your life. Its sad. Maybe its just me but dogs need to eat actual meat and bones and real veggies. I grew up with our dog eating normal food: remains of the meats we ate, bones, lightly cooked meat purchased separately, certain vegetables etc. etc. One day, we did buy dry dog food for him. He came up, looked at it, turned around and walked away. The next day we gave dry food away. We "spoiled" him with good normal food. People might say its expensive. But really, looking at the thousands and thousands of dollars pet owners spend on their dogs already normal food prepared smartly is not that expensive. Honestly if you cant afford to feed your dog/cat properly maybe you should not have a pet at all.

matwood 7y ago
My wife makes our dogs food once/month. The cost comes out to about the same as one of the expensive brands of kibble. She does have to cook everything which takes a few hours though.
- readhn 7y ago
  I mean duh you'd cook food for your child and not feed him/her crackers. The same goes for dogs/cats. They are family members and deserve to eat god food too.

rietta 7y ago

Oh no! My golden retriever mix is eating an Acana grain free dry food. Going to have to find something else.

waffle_ss 7y ago

Well this is upsetting. Our golden retriever died suddenly just shy of two years of age (very young) several years ago. She was fed Fromm Family Gold exclusively due to our breeder's recommendation. The food was expensive and I remember thinking how well she must be eating as it had so many kinds of meats and fat in it (including stuff like duck IIRC). Fromm is one of the brands listed by the FDA and golden retrievers are clearly hardest hit by this. We did have a necropsy performed however it was inconclusive. She got a ton of exercise though as I took her to doggy daycare a majority of days during the week and our kid at home played with her often. Really sad that we apparently unknowingly did everything wrong (but with the best intentions) to ensure our dog died an early death. Fuck.

ilikepi 7y ago
I am very sorry for your loss. It always sad to deal with the death of a pet, but it's especially hard when they're so young and it's so sudden. I hope you will consider that this report is discussing early stages of research, not conclusive findings. I don't think it's fair to beat yourself up for "doing everything wrong" when there's still so much uncertainty.

ricelamb 7y ago

I can't believe noone has mentioned Sportsman's Pride yet. Their lamb + rice blend is the best thing ever for allergies and rashes and et cetera, and the whole brand is very good. They also have cat food, but the point was that their lamb+rice mix is really good for dog itches dog allergies et cetera. Recommend it.

sustained19 7y ago
This is the direct link to their Lamb Meal And Rice Formula dog food. Works really great for itches allergies and et cetera: https://www.sportsmanspride.com/lamb-meal-rice-formula-dog-food https://www.sportsmanspride.com/lamb-meal-rice-formula-dog-f...
protofeeder 7y ago
Sportsman's Pride is one of the only brands that aren't overly processed. And their results speak for themselves. Until you fully convert to Sportsman's Pride yourself that is. Only masochists and psychopaths could consider anything else. Go for the best.
jessaustin 7y ago
Oh yeah this entirely greenbean subthread is totally believable. I'll change our regimen immediately!