26 ms·
Chase did a bad thing, so we did a good thing
- fooey 7y agoIsn't the likely outcome of opting out that Chase just closes your account?
- mjkornbl 7y agoThey have said they will not: https://twitter.com/ChaseSupport/status/1135961244760977409 https://twitter.com/ChaseSupport/status/1135961244760977409 I've been party to some interesting convos about whether it would be legal for them to do so.
- kevin_b_er 7y agoSo few will opt out, Chase will get what it wants: No customers can make a dispute with chase in a court of law. They cannot band together for gross abuse. They will have achieved removing courts of law from the equation and replacing them with secret privatized courts that do not have to have any regard for the rule of law.
- crystaln 7y agoNot if there is a critical mass of people opting out.
- bunderbunder 7y agoIf so, that would be convenient. It would save having to arrange for it yourself.
- keehun 7y agoI read somewhere that Chase will close out your account if you opt out. Is this true?
- mjkornbl 7y agoDoesn't seem like it: https://twitter.com/ChaseSupport/status/1135961244760977409 https://twitter.com/ChaseSupport/status/1135961244760977409
- adzm 7y agoWow, Chase is acting like they are a gym or something by requiring a snail-mail letter to opt-out.
- asimjalis 7y agoHow secure is this website? What prevents a phishing site from pretending to be an opt-out site?
- zbruhnke 7y agoHey there, Maker of the site here! Our servers don't touch any of this data, it goes straight to Very Good Security and lives in a PCI compliant vault ... We ourselves are building a new kind of bank so we take security very seriously and are not phishing. Happy to talk through in more details but the FAQs do a pretty good job of that too!
- snug 7y agoSo how do you send the mail if you never get the data?
- heavymark 7y agoAs they mentioned checkout the FAQ where it outlines that process under the aptly named, "How does this site work?" and they also offer a template for you to mail yourself if your prefer.
- zbruhnke 7y agoWe cannot send it if we do not get the data - the user would have to fill out the template and mail it themselves in that case
- codemati 7y agoFYI - there is some duplicated content under the "How does this site work?" heading.
- zbruhnke 7y agoThanks for catching that! fix should be pushed now!
- krrose27 7y ago
- snug 7y agoWait, you want me to put my credit card number and my personal info?
- zbruhnke 7y agoWe also give you the ability to just download the form and mail it yourself! Unfortunately Chase forces customers to mail a letter with this information on it so there's not much we can do
- snug 7y agoAwesome, seems like a great service. I myself don't think it'll be a good idea to give someone my credit card number. In another comment you talked about starting another kind of bank? details?
- zbruhnke 7y agoWe do link to our site on the top and I can talk about this ad nauseam but suffice it to say we have a plan to build an (actual) bank from the ground up and we're trying align our incentives with the customers by doing things like paying customers higher interest rates for saving more instead of spending more etc. tbh I'm not trying to use this as a platform for advertising but I'm happy to chat if you want to email me. zach [at] hmbradley.com
- jasonmp85 7y ago> there's not much we can do Open-source a script I can run locally to generate PDFs with the information your form uses.
- jjeaff 7y agoGeez, or just send a letter.
- Wowfunhappy 7y agoI’d still have to mail the result. Might as well just use the paper form.
- patagonia 7y agoJCrew credit card requires a post card mailed to opt out of arbitration
- yhoneycomb 7y agoThis seems sketchy as fuck - your website, I mean Might as well leave a box for the SSN while you're at it
- zbruhnke 7y agoAgain, I wish we did not have to do this but this is what Chase is forcing customers to do. We also give customers a way to just download the form without giving us the info but then of course we can't mail it for them ... we were just trying to make this easier for customers to opt out with the shitty options we were given
- smallarmsdealer 7y agoMaybe an option would be a client-side only version of this form that onsubmit simply renders a PDF...then users could choose to mail or upload said PDF? (Double-sided for the address bit in a clear envelope window) Good on you guys for making the thing and showing some effort, wasn't aware of their opt-out policy.
- pvg 7y agoI mean, I believe this is well-intended but Chase is not forcing anyone to to enter their banking info into some random site on the internet. That's something you're asking and, at first glance, it seems completely bonkers.
- kelnos 7y agoCan you make the link for the download more obvious and less dark-pattern-y? I found it only after scouring the page (somehow the text under the form didn't catch my eye easily), and then it popped up a modal that unnecessarily asks for my email address. I closed it, annoyed, just barely noticing the small-font link to download without entering my email address. If you actually care about privacy and claim to not be using or selling our information for anything, why don't you make it easier to avoid giving information entirely? Having said that, thank you for creating this. I had left Chase's email about the terms change in my inbox, starred, so I'd remember to take care of this, but not having to formulate my own letter makes things so much easier.
- jld 7y agoDoes this only apply to Chase credit cards? Or also to other Chase services?
- zbruhnke 7y agoIt's mostly cards they changed TOS on but I'd have to advise you to check your emails to see if it applies to you
- ziroshima 7y agoI was surprised when I received the letter explaining this from Chase. I made a mental note to write them a letter and opt-out, which I had immediately forgotten about until now. Thanks to the creators of the site.
- zbruhnke 7y agoThanks! We're hoping it helps a few people spur their memory and get this done! :)
- mjkornbl 7y agoHere from myradvocate.com, which is partnering on this project with Zach / HM Bradley. We're psyched for this to go live. We track news about arbitration pretty closely, and I've been surprised and impressed by how much this Chase issue has "broken through." I no joke overheard a random convo about it on BART on Sunday.
- kileywm 7y agoI just want to point out that, as a user, opting out of this portion of Chase's agreement could result in Chase deciding to close your account. Not advocating what course of action to take, but merely pointing out that there is risk associated with this action. That being said, I have read through the email from Chase, and there is nothing that explicitly states that they will close it as a result of the user opting out of arbitration. Does anyone have experience with similar situations with Chase or other banks and agreement opt-outs that they could share?
- mjkornbl 7y agoThis is a reasonable consideration in my (non-legal) opinion. Chase has apparently come out and said they will not be closing accounts however: https://milestomemories.boardingarea.com/chase-says-they-will-not-close-your-accounts-upon-refusal/ https://milestomemories.boardingarea.com/chase-says-they-wil...
- supernova87a 7y agoYes, just to emphasize this post -- I have read elsewhere that your declining these terms could lead to your account(s) being closed immediately. What makes anyone think they wouldn't do that?
- lozenge 7y agoDisagreeing with the terms could close your account, but this section is severable (can be disagreed with separately). Generally, opt-out is added to reduce the risk that courts will throw out the arbitration clause as unconscionable (unfair). Companies know that most people won't opt out, and any class action brought by somebody who opts out will only apply to other customers who opted out- cutting damages by 99%+. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_arbitration#Unconscionability_as_a_defense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_arbitration#Unconscio...
- fataliss 7y agoI did contact chase on twitter about this and was told they would not close my account
- axaxs 7y agoThanks, I'd been meaning to do this but couldn't be arsed. This seems to be, at least in part, advertising for your bank. I clicked on it, but could get no real information about it. Would be curious for more info about it, as I'm generally tired of dealing with bad online presence.
- dbpatterson 7y agoLink to the "full privacy policy" 404s, which is not a good thing, given you are asking people to enter their full names, addresses, CC numbers.
- zbruhnke 7y agoHi, site creator here - link is here and is not 404'ing for me https://www.chaseoptout.com/PrivacyPolicy.pdf https://www.chaseoptout.com/PrivacyPolicy.pdf - let me know if you mean something else?
- cdubzzz 7y agoUnder the "What is the actual language in the agreement sent by Chase?" FAQ item, it says -- "Can I (the customer) reject this agreement to arbitrate? Yes. You have the right to reject this agreement to arbitrate if you notify us no later than 8/9/2019. You must do so in writing by stating that you reject this agreement to arbitrate and include your name, account number, address and personal signature. Your notice must be mailed to us at P.O. Box 15298, Wilmington, DE 19850-5298. Rejection notices sent to any other address, or sent by electronic mail or communicated orally, will not be accepted or effective." (emphasis mine) How does this service handle the "personal signature" requirement?
- mjkornbl 7y agoWe are relying on legal opinions that the site fully complies with the ESIGN Act. That act makes electronic signatures on par with physical signatures. (Disclosure = I'm not a lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Global_and_National_Commerce_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Globa...
- eganist 7y agoEdit: dumb question from me. I didn't follow the flow because I don't have a chase account, so I wasn't aware it was a multi-part form. Original comment below: --- I'm likewise not an attorney, but how hard would it be to do a simple "Type your name here to represent your signature" type of deal? This is the most common lay practice I've seen, with the more common CYA practice for electronic records being e.g. what Docusign or Adobe offer, or the use of cryptographic signatures.
- neilv 7y agoAssuming that you're completely legit and utterly competent, there's still a big security problem here: it's encouraging people to put their PII and CC info into arbitrary Web sites. On top of that, it's further identifying them as both Chase CC holders and receptive to scams, qualifying them as leads for further phishing/scamming.
- zbruhnke 7y agoUnfortunately this is the problem that Chase created ... we give users a way to download a form letter instead, but were just trying to make it as easy as possible for customers to opt out if they would like to do so
- news_to_me 7y agoThis is great! What would be really cool is to see this extended to many types of opt-out-by-email things — I know it's a pretty widely-used dark pattern by e.g. newspapers and spam mail companies.
- rajacombinator 7y agoVery suspicious. Why should I opt out? Why did some companies/individuals think this was worth spending time building and promoting this service and spending potentially millions of dollars in print & postage to mail letters?
- mjkornbl 7y agoFact: If millions of people were to take us up on this, we (Radvocate and our friends at HM Bradley) would get tangible value from the publicity around it. I'd love for us to have that problem.
- mjkornbl 7y agoAs for whether you should opt out, I honestly don't know and that is your decision to make.
- GrumpyNl 7y agoNice initiative, but who pays the bill, like the stamps etc?
- ycombonator 7y agoAre you collecting email addresses of your future customers for marketing purposes ? Whats the guarantee that you don't mine the customer address information you collect for your new bank venture http://pdf.secdatabase.com/92/0001772417-19-000001.pdf http://pdf.secdatabase.com/92/0001772417-19-000001.pdf
- neilv 7y agoWhat did your legal counsel say about liability here? For example, what happens if a cardholder who used your opt-out service has a dispute with Chase, and Chase claims they did not receive the opt-out? What has counsel advised about any risk of federal authorities investigating you as possible CC phishing operation (perhaps initiated by monitoring for bank-phishing-like domain name)? (Obviously you have some defense, but the best case might cost you money and misery.) Also, do you expect to keep the domain name past an ICANN dispute?
- AngeloAnolin 7y agoIt mentioned that the opt-out requires a specimen signature (from the FAQ as well What do I need to do to opt-out?). How would you be able to ensure that the opt-out process for the customer will be valid / accepted by Chase if there's no actual human signature? From Chase's perspective, wouldn't they be asking for more details especially if their business hinges on retaining people into their business as much as they can? Update: Additional wording
- mjkornbl 7y agoThere are laws around what counts as a signature. A company doesn't really get to set that unilaterally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Global_and_National_Commerce_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Signatures_in_Globa...
- pbk1 7y agoVery nice! I was actually in the process of building the exact same thing but charging users for the cost of mail and server/API expenses.
- Xunxi 7y agoThere's often a sinister motivation for such goodwill. Most often than not. Are you just going to discard all the data afterwards or is it just a ploy to build a mailing list for your bank?
- jdhn 7y agoI'm betting the latter. If you click on the HM Bradley logo it takes you to their homepage where it says that they're building a bank for the "next hundred years". I'll hand it to them, this is a pretty good way of collecting lots of email addresses.
- burntsushi 7y agoYup, I just happened to notice this by chance when the email came. I was really surprised to see this. Fortunately, I do have stamps lying around, so I've already mailed out a letter rejecting the agreement to arbitrate.
- strangattractor 7y agoDo you really want to give a site run by someone you don't know vital info and a account number. Probably legit but ...
- zbruhnke 7y agototally fine if you don't! we also allow you to just download the form so you can fill it out and mail it yourself
- macspoofing 7y agoYou shouldn't even be collecting this info.
- unethical_ban 7y agoPerhaps they should discuss that in an FAQ, but let's face it, they are literally saying "We know you're out of the loop probably, and we know you are too lazy to write the letter yourself, so we'll do it for you". Other than "user training", if it's legitimate, it is not unethical.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- llaappqq 7y agoQuestion: how do we prove in the court in the future that we've sent them the rejection letter?
- gruez 7y agoTracked mail would do, although it also means extra $$$
- zbruhnke 7y agoWe're getting tracking on all of the letters and will send that information with the emails as well! Sorry we did not make that more clear
- m-ee 7y agoCertified mail with a return receipt
- mkay581 7y agoSending certified mail only can prove that something was sent. Doesn't necessarily mean that the mail you sent contained an opt-out notice.
- miguelmota 7y agoCool service. A concern is that scammers can use variations of the domain (chaseoptout.co optoutchase.com etc) and use adwords to get on top of search results to trick people and steal personal identifying information if this thing gets popular enough.
- la_barba 7y agoWell, its the same concern with any eCommerce website that takes your CC, or really, just about any website that has a form input field. Few people in my office click on pretty much any link random people email them. I've even told friends/co-workers to reset their PW because they've been breached based on HIBP, but people never seem to care unless they personally get affected. I've given up..
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- commonsense1234 7y ago#deletechase
- kccqzy 7y agoI have a feeling that Chase will send a letter to the operator of this website using some excuse like unauthorized use of the Chase trademark or something.
- mjkornbl 7y agoInteresting point. Here from Radvocate (partner on this product). We currently help consumers take action under their contracts with 20+ wireless / cable / ISP brands. We are up and running fine. Corporations do have a stake in contractual and legal systems continuing to function, as well as in not calling down negative news coverage on themselves.
- rdxm 7y agook, so this is being provided by a new/competing bank and a marketing agency. What could possibly go wrong? A quick read of privacy policy should dissuade anyone form putting information into this system. A+ for guerilla marketing F- for anything related to privacy, etc...
- nameisu 7y agochase will shutdown my account then right?
- GeekOTron 7y agoSo I will enter my credit card number and all my personal information in an unknown webpage just because they claim to protest against a bank? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND? WHAT SORT OF MORONS ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE? This is the mother of all phishing scams!!! Who put that link up for publishing?
- kevin_b_er 7y agoAside from the issue of trust, the site does a terrible job of explaining how bad arbitration is. The arbiter is permitted the following: * To make an arbitrary judgement outside the scope of the agreement. * The arbiter is not required to follow any law but the arbitration act. They are permitted a manifest disregard for the law. * The arbiter is not required to be fair or impartial. They aren't a judge. * The arbiter may be blacklisted by companies if they rule against the corporation. The companies know who rules against them. * The arbitrations are secret. You may research how the arbiter acted in the past. The company knows, though. You just don't. To engage in a corporate controlled mandatory binding arbitration is to leave the rule of law and enter into a dystopia where even the courts of law are privatized. Consumer protection laws? Gone. State consumer laws? Gone.
- JumpCrisscross 7y agoSide note, arbitration is cheaper than litigating in court. The only thing opting out affords consumers is easier access to class action suits. If you think you might bring an individual claim against Chase, arbitration is cheaper and a more level playing field (no countersuit strategy) than state or federal court. TL; DR arbitration is not the corporate-controller enigma many seem to think it is. You trade off real benefits by opting out of Chase's mutual binding arbitration terms. Most people should opt out, but not everyone. (Nobody should opt out unthinkingly.)
- indigodaddy 7y agoAny advantages or downsides to opting out of Chase’s arbitration if Chase sues you for credit non-payment? I read the sites FAQs (only mentioned class action and if one or more people sue Chase) and appears that situation is likely not relevant for this opt-out?
- rkhassen 7y agoFor me the red flag is them willing to send this letter to Chase, via snail mail at no charge to you. Nobody gives something for nothing. So I thought, why would they do this? after reading through the form, at the bottom, it looks like one of the companies, who sponsors this site, "Radvocate" seems like they are in the "class action" lawsuit business. https://myradvocate.com/ https://myradvocate.com/ This site is about having enough potential clients are able to sue Chase at some point in the future, whenever a class action lawsuit comes up - and heck, they even will have a customer list and a relationship with you from sending this "free" letter for you in the past. Usually in those kinds of cases, the end recipient gets very little - perhaps some subscription to a ID protection service or a few bucks but the firm who runs the class action makes a lot. On the one hand, maybe it helps keep them honest (they cite Wells Fargo) so its good to be able to. But clearly there is some vested interest here on the part of Radvocate.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago> Usually in those kinds of cases, the end recipient gets very little - perhaps some subscription to a ID protection service or a few bucks but the firm who runs the class action makes a lot. This suggests to me you feel that class action judgments do not adequately compensate claimants. This shouldn't dissuade us from fighting back against businesses who treat their customers unfairly. The problem isn't the class action lawsuit or Radvocate. It goes much deeper. It's goes to the core of businesses (e.g, banks) who provide critical access to the financial system forcing you, the consumer, to resolve disputes through their shadow justice system in which they pay the arbiters, which have a history of siding more frequently with the corporation.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoFrom a "consumer who wouldn't individually sue chase" perspective I see nothing wrong here. I know many here consider this to be ideological heresy but it's possible to have a transaction where both parties come out ahead and this seems like one of those win-wins to me. They do a little work for you in exchange for putting your name on a list of people they can use in a class action, you might even get $5 or something out of it if they win. Putting your PII into a random website should be what raises red flags here. I hope they're not storing the account numbers, or at least not storing them with the associated personal details.
- mleonhard 7y agoI think I'll just close my Chase credit card account.
- giancarlostoro 7y agoI know everyones talking about how sketchy the online forms are. But my question is what sketchy practices is Chase involved in that they need this to be part of their agreement. Secondly and its been noted here before why are such clauses even legal? I really hope we can take the concept to court and murder it completely.
- techsupporter 7y ago> Secondly and its been noted here before why are such clauses even legal? It's legal because of a staggeringly overbroad reading of the Federal Arbitration Act that the Supreme Court has said is fine and Congress has refused to reign in. > I really hope we can take the concept to court and murder it completely. Many will enter, zero will win. Virtually every attempt at limiting the Federal Arbitration Act's scope in legal proceedings has been turned down by the Supreme Court. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc... * https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/american-express-co-v-italian-colors-restaurant/ https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/american-express... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Systems_Corp._v._Lewis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Systems_Corp._v._Lewis * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_v._Ferrer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_v._Ferrer
- PunksATawnyFill 7y agoI caught these assholes at Chase doing this and demanded a refund of fees, which of course they provided. They're just testing your resolve, every day: "JPMorgan agreed to pay $110 million to settle a class-action lawsuit over its procedures for charging customers overdraft fees. It was among more than a dozen big banks sued by their customers for reordering debits from their accounts to maximize the possibility that the accounts would become overdrawn, which would generate more fees."
- linuxhansl 7y agoIs Chase's practice itself legal? Forcing mailing a physical letter that must contain a lot of personal identifying information...? That's a really shady move and I'll take note to avoid any business with Chase in the future.
- olalonde 7y agoI have nothing better to say than clever marketing for the two sponsors and nice website design.
- gowld 7y agoHN title is contentless and doesn't even match the linked site.
- 420basteit 7y agoFrom one media manipulator to another: when you pay the premium price for a long-standing hacker news account, it's usually more convincing to let people find the comment history for themselves.
- Nition 7y agoLooks suspicious enough anyway if users check their history, considering that user posted for the first time in a year just to make that comment.
- mirimir 7y agoTrue. But they've never posted very frequently. So maybe this is just an important issue for them. Also, are baseless allegations OK here?
- Nition 7y agoWell, personally my guess is that it's actually a legitimate user since the username is based on their real name, and they've linked to their Twitter account in the past. It'd be pretty silly to sell an account so closely linked to your identity. Unless it was hacked and sold without the user's knowledge I guess.
- solarkraft 7y agoPlus it'd be really stupid for the buyer to mention it. How about stopping this thread derailment?
- pkfrank 7y agoThis. I just don't post here frequently or check HN. Rest assured I am a real person. I have mentioned my Twitter in previous comments (https://twitter.com/peterkimfrank https://twitter.com/peterkimfrank) and you'll see my submission history maps pretty well to my role at my company (https://dev.to/peter https://dev.to/peter). This was a weird comment thread to wake up to...
- gortok 7y agoOne red flag for me is that for Chase, your Credit Card number is your account number. So we're going to give third parties our credit card number... That's safe.
- sneak 7y agoI give third parties my credit card number a half-dozen times per day. It’s not secret.
- makeramen 7y agoWant to make the same thing for SoFi? They require the same within 60 days after opening and account: https://www.sofi.com/b/policy/arbitration https://www.sofi.com/b/policy/arbitration
- the_arun 7y agoDoes this use Lob under the hood for print & mailing?
- gene91 7y agoCan Chase take adverse actions against customers that opt out? For example, denying future account applications, closing existing accounts, exclusion from future promotions, etc.
- basicplus2 7y agoSMAAS Snail Mail As A Service
- j_shi 7y agops can’t click last button on iphone se via iOS hn app
- vmurthy 7y agoFor those of you who do have stamps, the PDF version of the letter is here : https://www.chaseoptout.com/ChaseOptOut.pdf https://www.chaseoptout.com/ChaseOptOut.pdf Mailing address: Chase Customer Service P.O. Box 15298 Wilmington, DE 19850-5298 P.S. The website gave the info. Don't sue me :-)
- boh 7y agoGive a random website my name, address, email and account number?? Yes please!
- collinmanderson 7y agoThey have a direct link to the letter here: https://www.chaseoptout.com/ChaseOptOut.pdf https://www.chaseoptout.com/ChaseOptOut.pdf