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Disclosure: I'm an automotive diesel mechanic by trade, and chose the anti college 15 years ago. Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in ameri

Disclosure: I'm an automotive diesel mechanic by trade, and chose the anti college 15 years ago. Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in american households. HVAC, plumbers, machinists, welders and electricians are all facing massive shortages and offer a skilled, well paying job with benefits. These are all 1-2 year with an apprenticeship and the opportunity to build something you can be proud of.

nkozyra 7y ago
I think the tide started to turn on this a while ago, honestly. I remember my dad telling me how much money good machinists, plumbers, electricians made and how there's always jobs available. He pushed heavily for University, but I started getting programming jobs in high school and realized quickly the truth of supply and demand. There will always be demand and need for these types of jobs and they are not low skill at all. Since then I've heard a lot of people marveling at the need and value of trade jobs. If I had to quibble at the direction, it would be at the risk that specialization carries. My grandfather was a chiropractor but in later years found a more lucrative career as a copier repairman. This job was highly desired and well paid but for numerous reasons became less so in the 80s and 90s. What happens when you have devoted your career to a specialization and then it disappears or radically transforms?
- notduncansmith 7y ago
  It seems like we could prevent this by making retraining and respecialization a more normal part of education and career. What intrinsic purpose is there to doing one job for your whole life? If you can learn copier repair, you can probably learn some other useful engineering/repair trades.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  This is why I feel like hyper-specialization in universities should be limited to masters or doctorate degrees- if the market for airplanes goes poof, then a "I can design ailerons" type of degree is basically worthless and can mean that you won't be qualified for a job for a while. One of the things that Jewish communities have done for a while is have the men gain both a skill (university degree), and a trade, so that if one fails, they can switch to the other and still provide for their families. For example, after getting laid off in an economic downturn, being able to fix others refrigerators might be the thing that keeps yours from going empty. The other thing that I wish people would learn is living well within their means, so that if something happens, they don't lose everything that was theirs / the bank's.
dx87 7y ago
I have one cousin who decided to be an electrician, and another that is doing elevator installation and repair. I was suprised how well they're paid, it's probably because we've got strong unions in the area. Neither did any college, and they started out making about $25 an hour with no prior work experience. I still think people should go through college eventually, even just for resume padding. I spent ~8.5 years in the military and have almost 10 years of experience in my field, but HR at some places won't give me the time of day because I haven't finished my degree yet.
- eikenberry 7y ago
  People need to remember some of these jobs are tied to specific parts of the economy and can have downturns like anything else. I have a couple friends who are electricians and when the housing/construction market went pear shaped a decade back they both had a rough time of it. Turns out lots of electricians work in relation to construction and when there is no new construction there is a lot less work.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    The US has an enormous housing shortage, as seen in the rising housing costs everywhere. Long term, this will have to be addressed with tons of construction, so it should be a good trade to go into for a young person.
    - the_pwner224 7y ago
      > Long term, this will have to be addressed with tons of construction If your fresh new trade school grad is 20 years old, you're betting on there being 40+ years of continuous expansion. A welder can't switch to an electrician the same way a C++ programmer can switch to Rust.
    - taivare 7y ago
      I read somewhere there are 14 empty houses for every homeless person?
latencyloser 7y ago
I'm just gonna vent for a sec out of envy: As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. My neighbor is a welder, lives in a house the same as mine, doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime, doesn't spend weekends keeping up with the latest welding technology or practicing esoteric welding techniques just to pass an interview (as I sit here learning Rust because my team is starting to use it and practicing interview problems because I'm trying to transfer internally at the company). His boss probably doesn't pressure him to go give talks at welding conferences off hours as publicity to the company. Or come in on Saturday's to listen to presentations on what other parts of the welding org are working on. I'm tired of a career that consumes _my life_. I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. But I'm scared to do that in my industry, it just moves too fast and it's too easy to feel left behind, especially where I'm at in it--a weird limbo between programmer and manager where I'm expected to know how do to things without being allowed time to learn them. I loved programming when I was younger, and I still do, but my god I hate this industry. I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush. Once I pay down my house a bit and can afford to start over with my family somewhere else, I just might. /rant If any software folks who understand where I'm coming from wanna chime in on that, I'd love to hear about what you did about it... Or maybe I'm just a negative nancy, that's plausible too.
- m0zg 7y ago
  If your company requires interview to transfer _internally_, you should consider leaving. Microsoft was like that (maybe still is, I don't know), and it was easier to get a job elsewhere than to go to a desirable team.
  - latencyloser 7y ago
    Microsoft definitely still did as of late 2017, when I was still there. You're absolutely right, it was easier to just get a job elsewhere and that was what I did! Hah. I'm trying to avoid that here, because I like the company, just hoping to work on a different product. Is a transfer interview not common elsewhere? Anyone know if Amazon or Google requires something like that?
RickJWagner 7y ago
Yes, exactly! This is one of the reasons 'free college' cannot happen. College jobs generally pay more, we cannot artificially remove associated costs or there will be an even bigger gap between degreed students and pupils of skilled trades. The world needs plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. We need to pay them well. Kids need to recognize the opportunities presented.
- tschmi2 7y ago
  The exact opposite is true. With free college, more students from wider backgrounds could affort it. That would increase supply in college graduates while decreasing supply in workers of skilled trades. Thus, the latter would get to demand higher incomes (while the former would see theirs decreased).
  - bumby 7y ago
    I think it was Ron Paul who said in a debate something along the lines of "The rule is: anytime you subsidize something you get more of it." I don't know where I stand on that as it comes to education. Sure, a more educated populous is desirable but college no longer has a monopoly on higher education. The question to me is, do we need more of the type of graduates college is turning out? And if so, will subsidies further exacerbate the college tuition problem when college becomes "free"? It seems like distancing the payer and consumer leads to more unuseful consumption (one can look to healthcare or even college textbooks for examples)
  - RickJWagner 7y ago
    "increase supply in college graduates while decreasing supply in workers of skilled trades. Thus, the latter would get to demand higher incomes (while the former would see theirs decreased)." Even today some people are making the argument that college grads can't find good jobs. Wouldn't more grads make the problem worse? I think some of those college grads should find their way into skilled trades. The trades may lack some of the sizzle, but they definitely result in jobs that serve a purpose.
    - deleted 7y ago
smnrchrds 7y ago
> HVAC, plumbers, machinists, welders and electricians are all facing massive shortages and offer a skilled, well paying job with benefits. Exactly. These jobs pay well because for the past couple of decades, people have followed the common advice and overwhelmingly chosen to got to university instead of learning trades. Supply has thus become smaller than demand and wages have risen as a result. Now that the tides are turning, if people start following the new increasingly common advice to learn trades instead of getting a degree, what will happen? If university enrolment falls by 50% and trades college enrolment increases by the same amount, what kind of job market the new cohort of tradespeople will have upon graduation? If enrolments remain like that for 20 years, what would the job market for trades be in 2040? I sincerely doubt that blue collar jobs can offer better long-term career prospects, stability, and lifetime earnings than white collar ones. But then again, having gone through Alberta's recession and seeing what it did to blue collar jobs, I might be overly pessimistic.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Where else in Canada did the unemployed go?
- koolba 7y ago
  The overall costs are lower and the time from completion to realization that either it’s not for you or the job market is saturated (even just locally) is much quicker. You’re less likely to end up with a glut of HVAC repairmen or welders versus something like lawyers or (would be) programmers.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I think that many skilled blue collar jobs will be very late to never automated. I think a lot of white collar jobs will be automated, possibly within the career lifespan of today’s 17-year olds choosing a path.
shams93 7y ago
Yeah it makes sense to maybe make this move I consistently get asked to do 140 hours for 40 hours pay in software being an electrician is easier work even if it has some hazards doing that much overtime is also hazardous probably more so than the job risks ofan electrician or welder
- arelandt 7y ago
  But with the current demand in software you don't really have to say yes to working 140 hours, much less without being paid for it. At least that's what I've been doing here in Spain for the last 8 years. The moment I'm asked to work longer hours than I want to I just say no and start looking for another job. It's quite easy to find another one and eventually you find a place where you are not demanded to do such a thing.
Noos 7y ago
So how many women do you know that are diesel mechanics? A lot of the surplus in college graduates is due to women entering and graduating with four year degrees or more. They simply can't or won't repurpose to those trades. When I was in tech school, we were 80% or higher male, with virtually all the women clustered into hairdressing and machine drafting, with a few outliers in graphic design (printmaking then) and the trades you mentioned. And Machine drafting was where the misfits ended up, the ones who didn't fit into traditional trade work; none of us worked in our field if i remember. Very few people seem to even think about how the trades can't be an answer for slightly above half of the college-going populace. Even then, honestly trade work is something that will nail you unless you move to management later on.
burlesona 7y ago
I agree with everything you’re saying, but FWIW the article seems to be accusing colleges of being too “careerist” and offers basically the opposite of college AND trade school, a philosophical exploration without a particular emphasis on vocation.
- paxys 7y ago
  Those aren't contradictory. Historically, the intended purpose of University education has always been scholarship, research, exchange of knowledge and ideas etc. If you didn't want that, you would go find an apprenticeship or enroll in trade school. The whole "have to go to college to get a job" requirement is a very recent development, and that is what the article is speaking against.
daodedickinson 7y ago
I don't think trade school is a four letter word anymore. I hear much more respect these days, often from those with much student debt.
ryanmercer 7y ago
>Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in american households. Then they need to stop being predatory and expensive. Here in Indy you basically have Lincoln Tech. Let's take a look at one of their programs: https://www.lincolntech.edu/net-price-calculator https://www.lincolntech.edu/net-price-calculator Want to learn "Welding and Metal Fabrication Technology" Estimated net price: $ 31576.00 Are you kidding me? 31k$ to learn how to weld?!?! Looks like average welder income is $16.09 an hour here in Indy... basically a year's gross salary... except you won't start at $16.09, looks like you'll start at $12 an hour or less. If we do your profession: "Diesel and Truck Technology" is $56,253 for a 13 month program "Diesel and Truck Degree" is $63,473 for a 15 month 'degree'!!!
- claudiulodro 7y ago
  Community college! The PCC[1] welding program costs $5200 for a 1-year certificate. They also offer training in a variety of other trades for roughly the same price. [1] https://www.pcc.edu/programs/welding/ https://www.pcc.edu/programs/welding/
  - ryanmercer 7y ago
    IvyTech is really the only 'community college' and in fact is 2 of the 3 schools that come up when you search 'Indianapolis community college' (the other I've never heard of and given the neighborhood it is in I doubt it's a proper educational program) in Google. It is $140 a credit hour (which isn't true, they add tons of fees) for in-state students. Using your example the only welding certificate they have is Structural Welding at 21 credit hours which after all fees appears to be $4690 for in-state students. It appears only 20% of their students actually complete the program on time (within 8 months) too which doesn't say much for the school... https://www.ivytech.edu/academics/gainfulemployment/ge/structural-welding-ct.html https://www.ivytech.edu/academics/gainfulemployment/ge/struc... IUPUI, hands down the cheapest accredited university in Indianapolis, doesn't have a 'welding certificate' or anything remotely approximating it. They do have 'certificates' on their minors page but the only thing remotely trade related is some certificates in motorsports https://acd.iupui.edu/majors/minors-certificates/index.html https://acd.iupui.edu/majors/minors-certificates/index.html I imagine many others cities are in similar positions.
dekhn 7y ago
I'm definitely considering recommending trade schools to my kids, after a life as a software engineer and scientist. More importantly, I wish schools taught more DIY home improvement in general, so people could maintain their houses without needing to depend on expensive repairpeople all the time!
jamesmp98 7y ago
Ok, but I look at the entry level pay for electricians in my hour and see offering at $12/h with the top earners making $50-60k at tops
Taylor_OD 7y ago
I grew up in Vermont and my high school had a tech program. Plenty of guys I went to school with here working as an apprentice by the time they graduated. I know a lot of them are just scraping by though. It seemed to me like there is a shortage of skilled people only in certain areas. I knew a dozen people I could call if a pipe burst in Vermont. In Chicago, I have to call a service and have a stranger fix it. I know a lot of the guys who I went to school with have zero interest in moving away from their hometown.
AngryData 7y ago
While I agree they are decent jobs, I think you are severely underestimating the costs of many trade jobs. My father, a heavy equipment mechanic, can't even open up a jar anymore because his hands are so worn down from wrenching his whole life, they are basically simple claws even if he won't admit it to himself. My grandfather who did masonry, had constant near unbearable back pain by his 50s to the point where he had trouble sitting up in a chair without severe effort. My uncle, who did general contracting, had to have both knees and both hips replaced because of the physical tolls. All of them suffer daily physical pain far beyond simple aging. Not to mention the boom and bust cycle of construction with the economy means unpredictable income in many cases. Not to mention the 20 years or so each of them have shaved off their life span. Trades is a good job in your 20s, probably your 30s, but once you start getting to your 40s or above and your body stops performing and healing as it once did then it becomes a problem. How many trade workers never get to enjoy their retirement because their bodies have failed them? The pay is decent, but in most cases it isn't good enough. If we started clearly putting a price tag on years of peoples lifespans and quality of life, trade jobs are no longer as attractive, and I think that is being reflected in peoples hesitation to join a trade, especially if they are a personal witness to a trade worker with failing health. As for myself, I started trades myself doing carpentry, I was happy, then I got into an accident, another not uncommon occurrence in trades, after I recovered and tried to start again from a weaker state it became blindingly obvious how hard even just 10 years of real physical labor had done to my body. Yeah it became less noticeable once I got back to full strength, but I realized that it was just me ignoring the very real damage I was doing to my body on a daily basis. Today the only work ill even consider doing for public hire at market rate is high-end cabinetry. I still use my skills in my normal life, but im not going on some strangers roof for a paltry raise over a cashier. Im not going to breath in the chemical fumes and material dusts and pretend it isn't a problem. Im not going to lay brick for even a 20% raise. I plan on being able to actually enjoy my retirement rather than being confined to a lesser physical state full of pains and ailments.

nkozyra 7y ago

I think the tide started to turn on this a while ago, honestly. I remember my dad telling me how much money good machinists, plumbers, electricians made and how there's always jobs available. He pushed heavily for University, but I started getting programming jobs in high school and realized quickly the truth of supply and demand. There will always be demand and need for these types of jobs and they are not low skill at all. Since then I've heard a lot of people marveling at the need and value of trade jobs. If I had to quibble at the direction, it would be at the risk that specialization carries. My grandfather was a chiropractor but in later years found a more lucrative career as a copier repairman. This job was highly desired and well paid but for numerous reasons became less so in the 80s and 90s. What happens when you have devoted your career to a specialization and then it disappears or radically transforms?

notduncansmith 7y ago
It seems like we could prevent this by making retraining and respecialization a more normal part of education and career. What intrinsic purpose is there to doing one job for your whole life? If you can learn copier repair, you can probably learn some other useful engineering/repair trades.
HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
This is why I feel like hyper-specialization in universities should be limited to masters or doctorate degrees- if the market for airplanes goes poof, then a "I can design ailerons" type of degree is basically worthless and can mean that you won't be qualified for a job for a while. One of the things that Jewish communities have done for a while is have the men gain both a skill (university degree), and a trade, so that if one fails, they can switch to the other and still provide for their families. For example, after getting laid off in an economic downturn, being able to fix others refrigerators might be the thing that keeps yours from going empty. The other thing that I wish people would learn is living well within their means, so that if something happens, they don't lose everything that was theirs / the bank's.

dx87 7y ago

I have one cousin who decided to be an electrician, and another that is doing elevator installation and repair. I was suprised how well they're paid, it's probably because we've got strong unions in the area. Neither did any college, and they started out making about $25 an hour with no prior work experience. I still think people should go through college eventually, even just for resume padding. I spent ~8.5 years in the military and have almost 10 years of experience in my field, but HR at some places won't give me the time of day because I haven't finished my degree yet.

eikenberry 7y ago
People need to remember some of these jobs are tied to specific parts of the economy and can have downturns like anything else. I have a couple friends who are electricians and when the housing/construction market went pear shaped a decade back they both had a rough time of it. Turns out lots of electricians work in relation to construction and when there is no new construction there is a lot less work.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  The US has an enormous housing shortage, as seen in the rising housing costs everywhere. Long term, this will have to be addressed with tons of construction, so it should be a good trade to go into for a young person.
  - the_pwner224 7y ago
    > Long term, this will have to be addressed with tons of construction If your fresh new trade school grad is 20 years old, you're betting on there being 40+ years of continuous expansion. A welder can't switch to an electrician the same way a C++ programmer can switch to Rust.
  - taivare 7y ago
    I read somewhere there are 14 empty houses for every homeless person?

latencyloser 7y ago

I'm just gonna vent for a sec out of envy: As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. My neighbor is a welder, lives in a house the same as mine, doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime, doesn't spend weekends keeping up with the latest welding technology or practicing esoteric welding techniques just to pass an interview (as I sit here learning Rust because my team is starting to use it and practicing interview problems because I'm trying to transfer internally at the company). His boss probably doesn't pressure him to go give talks at welding conferences off hours as publicity to the company. Or come in on Saturday's to listen to presentations on what other parts of the welding org are working on. I'm tired of a career that consumes _my life_. I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. But I'm scared to do that in my industry, it just moves too fast and it's too easy to feel left behind, especially where I'm at in it--a weird limbo between programmer and manager where I'm expected to know how do to things without being allowed time to learn them. I loved programming when I was younger, and I still do, but my god I hate this industry. I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush. Once I pay down my house a bit and can afford to start over with my family somewhere else, I just might. /rant If any software folks who understand where I'm coming from wanna chime in on that, I'd love to hear about what you did about it... Or maybe I'm just a negative nancy, that's plausible too.

m0zg 7y ago
If your company requires interview to transfer _internally_, you should consider leaving. Microsoft was like that (maybe still is, I don't know), and it was easier to get a job elsewhere than to go to a desirable team.
- latencyloser 7y ago
  Microsoft definitely still did as of late 2017, when I was still there. You're absolutely right, it was easier to just get a job elsewhere and that was what I did! Hah. I'm trying to avoid that here, because I like the company, just hoping to work on a different product. Is a transfer interview not common elsewhere? Anyone know if Amazon or Google requires something like that?

RickJWagner 7y ago

Yes, exactly! This is one of the reasons 'free college' cannot happen. College jobs generally pay more, we cannot artificially remove associated costs or there will be an even bigger gap between degreed students and pupils of skilled trades. The world needs plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. We need to pay them well. Kids need to recognize the opportunities presented.

tschmi2 7y ago
The exact opposite is true. With free college, more students from wider backgrounds could affort it. That would increase supply in college graduates while decreasing supply in workers of skilled trades. Thus, the latter would get to demand higher incomes (while the former would see theirs decreased).
- bumby 7y ago
  I think it was Ron Paul who said in a debate something along the lines of "The rule is: anytime you subsidize something you get more of it." I don't know where I stand on that as it comes to education. Sure, a more educated populous is desirable but college no longer has a monopoly on higher education. The question to me is, do we need more of the type of graduates college is turning out? And if so, will subsidies further exacerbate the college tuition problem when college becomes "free"? It seems like distancing the payer and consumer leads to more unuseful consumption (one can look to healthcare or even college textbooks for examples)
- RickJWagner 7y ago
  "increase supply in college graduates while decreasing supply in workers of skilled trades. Thus, the latter would get to demand higher incomes (while the former would see theirs decreased)." Even today some people are making the argument that college grads can't find good jobs. Wouldn't more grads make the problem worse? I think some of those college grads should find their way into skilled trades. The trades may lack some of the sizzle, but they definitely result in jobs that serve a purpose.
  - deleted 7y ago

smnrchrds 7y ago

> HVAC, plumbers, machinists, welders and electricians are all facing massive shortages and offer a skilled, well paying job with benefits. Exactly. These jobs pay well because for the past couple of decades, people have followed the common advice and overwhelmingly chosen to got to university instead of learning trades. Supply has thus become smaller than demand and wages have risen as a result. Now that the tides are turning, if people start following the new increasingly common advice to learn trades instead of getting a degree, what will happen? If university enrolment falls by 50% and trades college enrolment increases by the same amount, what kind of job market the new cohort of tradespeople will have upon graduation? If enrolments remain like that for 20 years, what would the job market for trades be in 2040? I sincerely doubt that blue collar jobs can offer better long-term career prospects, stability, and lifetime earnings than white collar ones. But then again, having gone through Alberta's recession and seeing what it did to blue collar jobs, I might be overly pessimistic.

selimthegrim 7y ago
Where else in Canada did the unemployed go?
koolba 7y ago
The overall costs are lower and the time from completion to realization that either it’s not for you or the job market is saturated (even just locally) is much quicker. You’re less likely to end up with a glut of HVAC repairmen or welders versus something like lawyers or (would be) programmers.
sokoloff 7y ago
I think that many skilled blue collar jobs will be very late to never automated. I think a lot of white collar jobs will be automated, possibly within the career lifespan of today’s 17-year olds choosing a path.

shams93 7y ago

Yeah it makes sense to maybe make this move I consistently get asked to do 140 hours for 40 hours pay in software being an electrician is easier work even if it has some hazards doing that much overtime is also hazardous probably more so than the job risks ofan electrician or welder

arelandt 7y ago
But with the current demand in software you don't really have to say yes to working 140 hours, much less without being paid for it. At least that's what I've been doing here in Spain for the last 8 years. The moment I'm asked to work longer hours than I want to I just say no and start looking for another job. It's quite easy to find another one and eventually you find a place where you are not demanded to do such a thing.

Noos 7y ago

So how many women do you know that are diesel mechanics? A lot of the surplus in college graduates is due to women entering and graduating with four year degrees or more. They simply can't or won't repurpose to those trades. When I was in tech school, we were 80% or higher male, with virtually all the women clustered into hairdressing and machine drafting, with a few outliers in graphic design (printmaking then) and the trades you mentioned. And Machine drafting was where the misfits ended up, the ones who didn't fit into traditional trade work; none of us worked in our field if i remember. Very few people seem to even think about how the trades can't be an answer for slightly above half of the college-going populace. Even then, honestly trade work is something that will nail you unless you move to management later on.

burlesona 7y ago

I agree with everything you’re saying, but FWIW the article seems to be accusing colleges of being too “careerist” and offers basically the opposite of college AND trade school, a philosophical exploration without a particular emphasis on vocation.

paxys 7y ago
Those aren't contradictory. Historically, the intended purpose of University education has always been scholarship, research, exchange of knowledge and ideas etc. If you didn't want that, you would go find an apprenticeship or enroll in trade school. The whole "have to go to college to get a job" requirement is a very recent development, and that is what the article is speaking against.

daodedickinson 7y ago

I don't think trade school is a four letter word anymore. I hear much more respect these days, often from those with much student debt.

ryanmercer 7y ago

>Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in american households. Then they need to stop being predatory and expensive. Here in Indy you basically have Lincoln Tech. Let's take a look at one of their programs: https://www.lincolntech.edu/net-price-calculator https://www.lincolntech.edu/net-price-calculator Want to learn "Welding and Metal Fabrication Technology" Estimated net price: $ 31576.00 Are you kidding me? 31k$ to learn how to weld?!?! Looks like average welder income is $16.09 an hour here in Indy... basically a year's gross salary... except you won't start at $16.09, looks like you'll start at $12 an hour or less. If we do your profession: "Diesel and Truck Technology" is $56,253 for a 13 month program "Diesel and Truck Degree" is $63,473 for a 15 month 'degree'!!!

claudiulodro 7y ago
Community college! The PCC[1] welding program costs $5200 for a 1-year certificate. They also offer training in a variety of other trades for roughly the same price. [1] https://www.pcc.edu/programs/welding/ https://www.pcc.edu/programs/welding/
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  IvyTech is really the only 'community college' and in fact is 2 of the 3 schools that come up when you search 'Indianapolis community college' (the other I've never heard of and given the neighborhood it is in I doubt it's a proper educational program) in Google. It is $140 a credit hour (which isn't true, they add tons of fees) for in-state students. Using your example the only welding certificate they have is Structural Welding at 21 credit hours which after all fees appears to be $4690 for in-state students. It appears only 20% of their students actually complete the program on time (within 8 months) too which doesn't say much for the school... https://www.ivytech.edu/academics/gainfulemployment/ge/structural-welding-ct.html https://www.ivytech.edu/academics/gainfulemployment/ge/struc... IUPUI, hands down the cheapest accredited university in Indianapolis, doesn't have a 'welding certificate' or anything remotely approximating it. They do have 'certificates' on their minors page but the only thing remotely trade related is some certificates in motorsports https://acd.iupui.edu/majors/minors-certificates/index.html https://acd.iupui.edu/majors/minors-certificates/index.html I imagine many others cities are in similar positions.

dekhn 7y ago

I'm definitely considering recommending trade schools to my kids, after a life as a software engineer and scientist. More importantly, I wish schools taught more DIY home improvement in general, so people could maintain their houses without needing to depend on expensive repairpeople all the time!

jamesmp98 7y ago

Ok, but I look at the entry level pay for electricians in my hour and see offering at $12/h with the top earners making $50-60k at tops

Taylor_OD 7y ago

I grew up in Vermont and my high school had a tech program. Plenty of guys I went to school with here working as an apprentice by the time they graduated. I know a lot of them are just scraping by though. It seemed to me like there is a shortage of skilled people only in certain areas. I knew a dozen people I could call if a pipe burst in Vermont. In Chicago, I have to call a service and have a stranger fix it. I know a lot of the guys who I went to school with have zero interest in moving away from their hometown.

AngryData 7y ago

While I agree they are decent jobs, I think you are severely underestimating the costs of many trade jobs. My father, a heavy equipment mechanic, can't even open up a jar anymore because his hands are so worn down from wrenching his whole life, they are basically simple claws even if he won't admit it to himself. My grandfather who did masonry, had constant near unbearable back pain by his 50s to the point where he had trouble sitting up in a chair without severe effort. My uncle, who did general contracting, had to have both knees and both hips replaced because of the physical tolls. All of them suffer daily physical pain far beyond simple aging. Not to mention the boom and bust cycle of construction with the economy means unpredictable income in many cases. Not to mention the 20 years or so each of them have shaved off their life span. Trades is a good job in your 20s, probably your 30s, but once you start getting to your 40s or above and your body stops performing and healing as it once did then it becomes a problem. How many trade workers never get to enjoy their retirement because their bodies have failed them? The pay is decent, but in most cases it isn't good enough. If we started clearly putting a price tag on years of peoples lifespans and quality of life, trade jobs are no longer as attractive, and I think that is being reflected in peoples hesitation to join a trade, especially if they are a personal witness to a trade worker with failing health. As for myself, I started trades myself doing carpentry, I was happy, then I got into an accident, another not uncommon occurrence in trades, after I recovered and tried to start again from a weaker state it became blindingly obvious how hard even just 10 years of real physical labor had done to my body. Yeah it became less noticeable once I got back to full strength, but I realized that it was just me ignoring the very real damage I was doing to my body on a daily basis. Today the only work ill even consider doing for public hire at market rate is high-end cabinetry. I still use my skills in my normal life, but im not going on some strangers roof for a paltry raise over a cashier. Im not going to breath in the chemical fumes and material dusts and pretend it isn't a problem. Im not going to lay brick for even a 20% raise. I plan on being able to actually enjoy my retirement rather than being confined to a lesser physical state full of pains and ailments.