22 ms·

Stadia Founder's Edition

183 points by endorphone 7y ago

li4ick 7y ago
I guess in terms of game development, Stadia will be like GitHub. As a service though, we'll see. Their reveal stream kept crashing, and there was noticeable lag during their initial GDC presentation.
- michaelmior 7y ago
  Could you explain what you mean by "like GitHub"?
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    https://www.xkcd.com/624/ https://www.xkcd.com/624/
- andy_ppp 7y ago
  I'm guessing lag will depend on how far from the data center you are and might not be great initially but then could prove to be awesome in a year or two as more localised render farms appear.
minimaxir 7y ago
$10/mo was pretty much the only way they could price the service; however I didn't expect 4k to be the base resolution for the paid service. (thought it would be $10/1080p, $15/4k; having 1080p for free is interesting). Google needs to be more transparent about device support though. The stream highlighted Chromecast Ultra/Android, but not much else (e.g. if there is an iOS client, or compatibility with a base $35 1080p Chromecast/Chromecast protocol for smart TVs) [EDIT: the FAQ is more clear: https://support.google.com/stadia/answer/9338946 https://support.google.com/stadia/answer/9338946]
- saynay 7y ago
  From their site, as far as phones go only Pixel devices will be supported at launch. Support for other devices would be coming "later".
- ulucs 7y ago
  It's free after you pay for the games though. There needs to be some kind of free plan when you're making people buy (licenses to stream) games.
  - ehsankia 7y ago
    Sure, but compute isn't free. The fact that you pay for a game once, and you get a dedicated console rendering and streaming the game to you for as long as Stadia exists is not a given. And the game costs just as much as normal retail, so whatever cut they are taking has to account for the cost of computer.
- partingshots 7y ago
  I doubt iOS is going to get access to Stadia. One of the primary perks for going with Android is that you’ll be have access to mobile gaming through Stadia that you can’t get with an Apple device.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    Google isn't a company that restricts their services in such a coupled manner. I fully expect it to be supported on most devices where it's possible to support it.
    - lawrenceyan 7y ago
      In my opinion, restrictive would be keeping Stadia to only Google specific hardware. Making it available for all Android devices feels pretty good to me.
      - saynay 7y ago
        I would actually suspect more of the opposite. Their biggest hurdle, at least initially, is fighting the perception that the service just won't be performant enough to be a good experience. I would not be surprised if they start with a limited set of high-end devices (Apple ones included), just so people don't blame device limitations on the service instead.
  - BinaryIdiot 7y ago
    I don't think so. Google has announced it would be coming to more phones and devices in the future and they consistently say "tablets" instead of ChromeOS tablets. It's a service, it would be silly to ignore literally a billion possible customers (or whatever the iOS numbers are now).
  - wtmt 7y ago
    Considering that iOS users, on average, pay a lot more for software, games and services, it’d be stupid for Google to ignore a paying customer base. In any case, Google will not ignore iOS, like it hasn’t done so far in a big way. There are things that were released on iOS first by Google, like the Gboard keyboard, for example. So Google is not at all averse to iOS or in the habit of avoiding it in any way.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
Does MS have a patent on offset joysticks or does noone care that you can't strafe right and look left without smashing your thumbs together? Switch the dpad and left joystick.
- minimaxir 7y ago
  The current Stadia controller layout matches the PS4's controller.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    It matches all typical controllers so I can see why they did it, but the normal design is flawed. The joystick has to be offset to fit all hand sizes and thumb movements properly.
  - alexland 7y ago
    Which is not a good thing IMO. The Xbox One controller has been much more comfortable for longer sessions for me.
haolez 7y ago
I think that an underestimated benefit of game streaming is anti-cheat. It would benefit a lot games like Fortnite and Pubg.
- atq2119 7y ago
  Competitive games, at least competitive shooter games, are really the worst application for this though because they suffer the most from input-to-display latency. Games like League of legends might be fine though.
  - haolez 7y ago
    But assuming that the latency gets reduced to acceptable levels for competitive games, I see this distribution model as the only one to effectively fight cheaters. I would love to hear alternatives, though.
    - j-c-hewitt 7y ago
      That's a really big assumption. For a lot of genres the latency is just not going to be low enough.
  - BinaryIdiot 7y ago
    Based on some rough, early estimates the input lag with Stadia is incredibly impressive. I originally thought it would never work for many types of games like you say but now I'm reserving judgement. It's not impossible at least.
  - blueboo 7y ago
    They suffer from uneven or inconsistent input-to-display latency. If Stadia can give everyone the same, (hopefully) modest amount of latency, the games remain as fair as they ever were
    - bpye 7y ago
      It might be fair but that doesn't mean it will be enjoyable...
gamblor956 7y ago
And the betting on when this product will be shut down by Google has already begun...right now 3 years is the choice with the most money behind it. Some fools are guessing Google may give this as much as 5 years. Given Google's abysmal history of supporting its software and hardware products, see e.g., the Nest fiasco from a few weeks ago, only a fool or someone with cash to waste would invest in a Google hardware device before it's proven popular by the market.
- Jabbles 7y ago
  Google has a habit of getting bored of a service or, if it's not doing too well, just switching it off. Can you assure people that if they spend money on Stadia games, they are still going to have access to them in the coming years? I completely understand the question. I think there's a couple of things I would answer to that. One is our commitment to this business is extraordinary. If you look at the list of games, and crucially, the list of game companies that are backing Stadia, you can see the level of interest and support. Google is committed to this for the long term, we have made very significant financial investments in this. And we have an incredibly dedicated team who is helping to make Stadia reality. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48525703 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48525703 Words are cheap, though.
  - ClassyJacket 7y ago
    "If you look at the list of apps, and crucially, the list of developers that are backing Android wear, you can see the level of interest and support. Google is committed to this for the long term, we have made very significant financial investments in this. And we have an incredibly dedicated team who is helping to make Android Wear reality." Google, 2014, probably. Words are very cheap.
    - Jabbles 7y ago
      That seems unfair - Wear hasn't been abandoned. It hasn't been an overwhelming success, but it's not been a complete failure either. https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS44901819 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS44901819 I can't see Google dropping it unless Apple abandons theirs first.
bt3 7y ago
Can someone explain the tech here? Obviously the brains of this is a Google data center beaming the game through a Chromecast to your TV (or in-app on your Pixel/ whatever). Is there any tech in the controller? What "costs" $129 if there's a subscription model attached to this? If the controller is indeed "dumb" (just sending inputs), why wouldn't there be compatibility with Xbox or PS4 controllers? If the history of non-main consoles has taught us anything (Nvidia Shield, Ouya, etc), you have to have games and a controller. Seems Google has games covered, but why try and reinvent the wheel with a new controller?
- LUmBULtERA 7y ago
  My understanding is that the controller supposedly connects directly to Google through WiFi rather than going through the device you're playing on.
  - bt3 7y ago
    Hmm. Does this mean that the controller is the "brains", and after sending and receiving the game play data, then needs to beam it to your device? Or do the two devices (controller + screen) work together to handle some of this? I fear for the latency in general.
    - jitl 7y ago
      Neither device is the brains. The controller uploads inputs. The Chromecast downloads outputs. The brains is Google’s cloud.
    - LUmBULtERA 7y ago
      I would think it's just sending data on your inputs to the data center directly to reduce latency, but otherwise has no other brains.
  - atq2119 7y ago
    Right. The idea seems to be that the controller directly talks to Google via WiFi to minimize the input latency, while the display device also directly talks to Google to minimize the output latency.
eckmLJE 7y ago
How are they overcoming the jarring effects of input latency? Even 20-30ms in input lag would turn a lot of people off, or is this primarily for casual games where this won't matter too much?
- LUmBULtERA 7y ago
  I played the AC Odyssey Stadia/Stream beta -- at least for that kind of single-player experience it felt comparable to console input lag with no jarring effects. I'd be interested in how it would be in twitch shooters though.
  - boardwaalk 7y ago
    I played the beta too, but never a local copy of AC: O. I couldn't tell whether it was the game or Stadia or my connection (Google Fiber, no wi-fi), but it felt like walking through mud. If that's was just the nature of the game, that's not a very honest choice of game. Every game I've bought for myself is in recent memory was more responsive.
  - dx87 7y ago
    I doubt twitch shooters would be playable. I've used steam's in home streaming, and platformers that require precise jumping accuracy are basically unplayable because even a fraction of a second hiccup in latency can get you killed. Even simple platformers like Crash Bandicoot can get frustratingly difficult to play over a stream. If the service gets popular enough, we might see developers making changes to help out players using Stadia, the same way that they add auto-aim for most console shooters, but disable it in the PC version.
    - Jabbles 7y ago
      even a fraction of a second This is meaningless unless you can be more precise.
      - lasagnaphil 7y ago
sergiotapia 7y ago
I don't like the Google account being tied to everything, email, youtube, stadia, analytics, photos, etc. I won't use it because of this
- pkaye 7y ago
  You can create multiple Google accounts.
  - llukas 7y ago
    That google will associate and ban together.
KukicAdnan 7y ago
This is right up my alley being a pretty casual gamer. I have a 1GB Fiber connection at home so streaming shouldn't be an issue, the cost is fairly minimal, and not having the worry about downloading or updating games and just being able to pick up the controller and have a quick gaming session will be perfect. And the cost to entry is very low, so even if the service is a bust and I leave after the 3 free months, I'll still have a Chromecast Ultra that I've been looking to pick up anyway.
- PhilippGille 7y ago
  A 1 Gbit/s connection is a great bandwidth (you probably mean 1 Gbit/s and not 1 GB), bit the latency is even more important. If the game movements and actions lag behind your physical input, this can ruin the whole experience, no matter if the stream has a great quality (few compression artifacts, high resolution) thanks to the bandwidth. I only used the Shadow gaming VM service so far and the servers are in a neighbouring country, with 100 Mbit/s bandwidth and 30ms ping to 1.1.1.1, so not optimal conditions, but GTA IV, Minecraft and other games were not fun to play due to the input lag.
  - ilovecaching 7y ago
    Yeah, you need to be next to a PoP where the game servers are running for an optimal experience.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    With fiber he's probably getting 1ms pings.
    - KukicAdnan 7y ago
      Yeah according to Speedtest.net I'm getting 2ms ping. http://www.gcping.com/ http://www.gcping.com/ to the closest Google data center puts me at 12ms median.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      This all depends on where you live and the infrastructure. I have 1 Gbit fiber, but in my country nearly all the infrastructure is concentrated in one of 2 cities, so I still have minimum 15/30ms (IPv6/IPv4) ping to everything since it has to travel across the country. edit: gcping.com puts me at 40ms
strikelaserclaw 7y ago
So you order some thin client for 129 bucks, pay 10 dollars a month for the service and buy the games? I was assuming Stadia to be like a sort of Netflix for games. I could just as easily buy a console and buy the games.
- minimaxir 7y ago
  You get some games free with the service like Destiny 2's expanded content (same as PSN Plus/Xbox Live Gold).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonlotito 7y ago
  Or you just buy a controller and buy the games you want and that's it. You don't need to pay $10/month. You don't need to spend $129 right now. For free, you won't get 4k, you won't get discounts, and you won't get free games, but you you don't need to pay monthly.
- saynay 7y ago
  Strictly speaking, the minimum purchase is just one of the games on Stadia if you are going to be using Chrome on your PC and already own any HID-compatible controller. The $10/mo gets you 4K streams (you get 1080p without a subscription), and occasional free and discounted games (like PS+ does). At launch, the free title will be Destiny 2 + all expansions (including the one releasing later this year). The $129 gets you a Chromecast Ultra ($60), and the controller ($70), and 3 months of the subscription ($30) for you and a friend. Both the Chromecast and the controller are usable outside of Stadia.
- jayd16 7y ago
  Seems pretty competitive if you care about graphics fidelity and plan to play on more than one screen.
deleted 7y ago
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haunter 7y ago
>We aren’t in your country yet Sounds about right. By the time it comes to EU it will be abandoned by Google and shut down in a year or so
- what_ever 7y ago
  > The Founder’s Edition will launch in United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. Disc: Googler.
  - krzyk 7y ago
    Still the same, I'm in Poland and they are not there yet :( From the list I see that they don't have any new EU states and they don't have even Portugal. Which is quite strange, because internet speed there on average much better (fiber is quite popular) than in the old EU. I think the issue is lack of google servers in those countries.
- AnssiH 7y ago
  If you are not seeing the page with OP link (which shows a region-specific page), try this direct link to the US store page: https://store.google.com/us/product/stadia_founders_edition https://store.google.com/us/product/stadia_founders_edition
- pova 7y ago
  I've bought google products before by shipping them to a middle man in Germany. I wonder if this would work with Stadia, as it requires recurrent payments and online activation.
jonathanhd 7y ago
This is astoundingly cheap. In fact its too cheap, €10/month works out to €360 + €130 over a 3 year hardware cycle which is barely enough for a not-really-capable 4k GPU as it is, without costing all the additional services/hardware. And to put it bluntly, these games are second-rate titles from the last year. From this announcement I guess that this is mostly just another data farming play that will never generate a profit on its own and has a very high chance of being shutdown within 3 years.
- guiomie 7y ago
  You are not taking into account for the fact that the hardware will be used constantly by multiple people on and on. I play on average 1 hour of video game a day, multiply that by 24, or 12 or 6 to be more conservative, you are still getting a good margin on hardware cost.
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    He's right though, 10 is not enough. For fractional gpu use, bandwidth, electricity, and engineering, service support, business dev, and marketing salaries at the google level? Even if we assume that they can run 100 users on each GPU, that wouldn't be enough. (They can't run 100 users on each gpu, but even if they could.) There's some other play here? Not really sure what google's strategy is, but these prices make it clear they don't need to make money.
    - Fogest 7y ago
      They are also operating a game store... they take a cut there. Also likely will be ads.
    - t0mbstone 7y ago
      I wonder if they will use high-end servers with GPUs that can be used for serving stadia gaming users during peak gaming hours, and then for tasks like number crunching and machine learning during off hours?
  - saynay 7y ago
king07828 7y ago
Surprised by the lack of an ad supported free version. Seems like applying the lessons they've learned from conquering internet search might be helpful, but apparently not.
- BinaryIdiot 7y ago
  I'm not sure I follow. You buy your games like you would with any console. It's just the console is "in the cloud" and you only pay the monthly subscription if you want the higher quality stream and the occasional free game (think PS Plus). How would an ad supported version fit into that model? I thought it was a fantastic model!
  - king07828 7y ago
    Instead of having to buy a game, the user plays the game for free, but has ads as part of the game stream (e.g., a discrete banner ad at the bottom of the screen), which may only appear during load times or in character selection menus (i.e., not during a fight). An important aspect would be that the ads could not interfere with the game itself. This is like how Google sells ads and displays the ads in the search results in a discrete manner. The publisher/developer would receive a share of the revenue collected from the advertiser. OR do the 4K stream option with no monthly payment but have ads that don't interfere with the gameplay. I expect most have the knee-jerk reaction of "ADS?! N0! NEV3R!". But what if you get to play top games for free by ignoring ads that don't interfere with the game? Like how you get free internet search results by ignoring ads.
- KukicAdnan 7y ago
  There is a free version that's limited to 1080p/60fps coming in 2020. Games on the Pro subscription aren't free by the way either. Pro subscription just allows 4k/60fps streaming and some limited free games like Xbox Live and Playstation Plus. Most games whether on the Pro subscription or Free will still have to be bought by individuals.
  - king07828 7y ago
bradenb 7y ago
I think this is a pretty reasonable price and I fully expect to pre-order, but I'm disappointed that the games must be purchased a la carte. I'd much rather pay a higher monthly fee and be able to play any games I wanted. I'm not sure how much more I'd be willing to pay, but I just think that purchasing titles that I don't own doesn't fit well with the streaming paradigm.
- mfatica 7y ago
  Yeah agreed, I was expecting streaming to be streaming - I don't purchase individual titles on Netflix. Maybe if it was transferable to PC or another platform I'd be more open to it.
  - snug 7y ago
    > A free tier will be available some time in 2020, as will a paid subscription tier that doesn't require the upfront purchase. Wonder if the paid sub won't require a payment for games in the future. Even with a console you still have to pay to play online, so I don't see this as necessarily a huge problem if I have to pay $10 to get the online aspect and still pay for the games
    - mfatica 7y ago
      Makes sense, I went to their site to look more in depth and it seems with the Pro subscription you get some free games periodically and also a discount on select titles. That feels like a good middle ground actually
  - freehunter 7y ago
    It's not like any of this is new territory either. Xbox Game Pass works like that (minus the streaming) and OnLive worked exactly like that (streaming + unlimited games). It's not an unreasonable demand.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  For me that's an immediate 'nah', because I entirely expect it to suddenly shut down at some point in the future (because, you know, Google).
octosphere 7y ago
I thought Google was just search and a few services like Drive, Docs, Gmail etc Shouldn't Stadia fall under the branch of Alphabet and omit all instances of using 'Google' in their marketing? Why use the Google name for something not remotely related to search?
- mfatica 7y ago
  Because the Google brand is still orders of magnitude more recognized than Alphabet especially in mass market. I would wager a decent chunk of their target audience doesn't even know what Alphabet is
  - rhino369 7y ago
    I'm not even sure why they tried to brand a conglomerate holding company anyway.
    - paxys 7y ago
      They didn't. Alphabet has zero branding, barely even a web site. The stock itself is still called GOOG.
- jefft255 7y ago
  Google is much more than that; think Google Cloud, which I think this falls into. Also even hardware (Chromecast, Pixel) falls under the Google umbrella!
- alekratz 7y ago
  Brand identity, I suspect. They're the only folks in the world who are allowed to (legally) prepend "Google" to a service or product, which is essentially free marketing.
- aroman 7y ago
  Google is way more than search. YouTube, Cloud, Android, and Pixel are all part of Google.
falcolas 7y ago
Anyone know of a "how will Stadia perform on my ISP" check (all I see is a bandwidth check, which is not the same)? I'm not expecting anything (I'm on average 50ms ping to servers, 120ms ping if you include processing on the remote end), but it would be good to have confirmation. I'm also disappointed by the dramatic extension of the "you don't own the games you buy", since there's not even an option to download the titles and play offline. It gets more worrisome based on Google's demonstrated "go to HN" form of customer support.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- tschwimmer 7y ago
  Check out Fast.com. If your loaded latency numbers are high, it's possible you won't do well with Stadia. The best test is going to be using it. There are too many factors to have a good predictive test.
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    Last mile times are always going to cause lag. 5g won't be rolled out for years, then you'll need a phone to take advantage of it so that's not going to help. Last mile in US performance is really poor unless you're on full fiber which isn't offered in most of the US. Even with direct peering to the ISPs, which they don't have, this isn't likely to be a superior experience compared to a local machine. They'll have to push the entire video stream along with the intelligence. That's a lot of data that can't be lagged.
    - judge2020 7y ago
      > which they don't have, Can't directly refute this, but wouldn't you think GCP is peered with the vast majority of local ISPs (in America and maybe the EU)?
      - cannonedhamster 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
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partiallypro 7y ago
I just don't see how they are going to compete with Microsoft on this, or Sony for that matter. I can't help but think this will be killed off in the next 2-3 years due to low adoption. Microsoft and Sony already have their foot in the door, and xCloud is supposedly going to be an E3 topic...and I'm sure they will bundle it with existing Xbox Live services for a bump in price. Google has proven me wrong in the past, but they've also killed a lot of products like this.
- techntoke 7y ago
  Uh, cross-platform gaming will be huge. It says it will work in a Chrome browser. This is running on Linux and using Vulkan as well, so I imagine the open source community will want to try to adopt these technologies more and more since it is clearly scalable and efficient enough to run a live streaming service of this magnitude. I'm happy to see less games developed in proprietary frameworks and to be supported on more operating systems than Windows.
  - partiallypro 7y ago
    There's no denying the underlying idea is big, the question is can Google actually penetrate the market, or have the grit to see it through when adoption is low in the beginning. I'm betting no, but we'll have to wait and see.
    - cannonedhamster 7y ago
      First time someone gets bored at Google they will drop this like nothing with a month or two notice and any games purchased will be vapor. Google doesn't care about it's users. It's just another platform to extract data mining or ai from. Google makes massive unilateral consumer unfriendly changes before breakfast. They barely care about business customers. If you're not ads or ad related and bringing in money you're not worth anything.
      - FridgeSeal 7y ago
        You’re being downvoted, but you shouldn’t be, because you’re absolutely correct.
cma 7y ago
Doesn't work on Firefox
- techntoke 7y ago
  Probably cause Firefox is much slower than Chromium-based browsers, especially when it comes to hardware acceleration support for video streaming in Linux.
javajosh 7y ago
The architectural idea behind Stadia is interesting. The tacit assumptions here seem to be that the only games worth playing are multi-player, and also it's a real PITA to build a good gaming rig these days. The first assumption allows that there must be some shared state; and with the second, you extend the shared state to include the entire UI, and you use a video codec to ship it. Lots of benefits to Google and game authors in terms of DRM - players no longer even have access to the game code. Nor do they have access to the "low entropy" network messaging stack. There will be literally no opportunity to write low entropy bots (although Sikuli style keyboard/mouse bots will always be possible, of course). It's interesting to compare/contrast the trade-offs with traditional shrinkwrapped and more modern Steam/Blizzard style game distribution. It seems clear that Google wants to leapfrog Steam here, and go toe-to-toe with Netflix.
- techntoke 7y ago
  > also it's a real PITA to build a good gaming rig these days It's like as hard as putting together some legos. For $800 you can get a great setup these days.
  - javajosh 7y ago
    Do you really believe this? I've actually looked into buying a gaming rig recently, and the amount of choices one has to make is impressive. Plus, even if picking and assembling hardware is easy (and it isn't for the average person), there is the aspect of system administration. I haven't admin'd a Windows box for a long time, but it's not a responsibility I'd take lightly.
    - techntoke 7y ago
      Yes, I really do. Just because there are a lot of options, doesn't mean it is difficult, just that you didn't have enough knowledge at the time that you felt comfortable with to make a decision. I'd encourage if you're going to buy to build it yourself. It is really easy, and pretty much everything is color coded. There are thousands of great videos you can watch too. Figure out what size of mobo and case you want, grab a Ryzen (my preference) CPU, and one or two Samsung M.2 drives. If you don't pick a case with a power supply, then add that to your cart and figure out what kind of graphics card you want. The RX 580 is a great deal, especially if you plan on using Linux. Grab some RAM and a compatible motherboard and you're good to go. All this for $800 or less, depending if you just stick with one hard drive. Installing Windows is super easy. You just plug in a USB drive and startup your computer. I'm not sure what kind of system administration you're looking for. If you're looking for a bunch of bloated unnecessary spyware, then yeah you'd prob be better off buying a computer at Walmart, but then again I am surprised you're on Hacker News if that is what you're after.
deleted 7y ago
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tus87 7y ago
Won't work. The reason multiplayer games work over the internet is game engines compensate for latency by prediction. But when I move my mouse I don't want to wait a third of a second for the view to change. The problem with Google is they test everything on local 10G networks with near zero latency and the servers are walking distance away. Then they produce these abortions of products that are killed off 2 years later. Yeah basic input lag is about as enticing as a 2KG chunk of a plastic helmet strapped to my head. I bet in 10 years time we will still be playing on a PC with a GPU and a monitor on the desk.
- vvanders 7y ago
  Yup, as someone who wrote action networked games when I was in gamedev this is pretty on point. You're not going to get any chance at latency correction so jitter(which tends to be bursty) on the connection is going to really hurt you.
- rossjudson 7y ago
  You made me laugh when you said "servers are walking distance away". That's a lot of very long walks, friend.
vvanders 7y ago
Really not seeing how they pull this off. Even a couple of congested wifi channels is enough to put latency jitter into the connection that's noticable. Back in gamedev we did all sorts of tricks with dead reckoning and the like to hide/compensate for it. With the current architecture I don't buy that you'll be able to make those same saving adjustments.
- duality 7y ago
  Maybe a different class of games will do best on a streaming platform.
hyperpallium 7y ago
The problem with clown gaming is latency. Maybe it can find a place, at the right price (perhaps free), location, game type, mechanic and implementation. Here, google says the base will be free, but you have to buy the games. But will publishers drop their price enough? Would a low-quality version damage their franchise/brand? Second, will publishers modify their mechanics and implementation, to hide latency? The other way is with low-latency internet - so would need to be geographically close, like a city-sized LAN party. Perhaps Seoul? Both need to begin as disruptions, selling their strengths (cheap, convenient, simple, easy), in circumstances/usages where their weaknesses don't matter (latency, bandwidth), starting small and growing as work it out. e.g. a fun game that only really works as a cloud game. (is that possible?)
jonah 7y ago
> Stadia is not available in Hawaii. > Stadia is not available in Guam. Is this a bandwidth issue? Alaska is Ok though?
- scoobydoo 7y ago
  I was disappointed to see that as i'm in Hawaii ...i guess they don't have a data center in Hawaii or Guam?
- mrep 7y ago
  Most likely they don't have data centers in hawaii and thus the latency would be too high to stream it from the continental US.
oarabbus_ 7y ago
Is it just me or is google very good at a set of core products, but always puts out poor offerings when they try to expand into other spaces (G+, Glass, Stadia) I read on another forum the best description of Stadia - "imagine if netflix charged you for each movie on top of your subscription fee"
SoupyDolphin 7y ago
Discussions around Stadia always fail to mention the alternatives. I've been using GeForce Now with a Nvidia Shield for over a year now and it's been a great experience. The hardware costs are the same as the Stadia ($130), it's free to use while the beta period lasts, and you can play all the games you've already purchased on Steam, BattleNet, Epic etc. in 4k. Why would I buy all the games AGAIN on Stadia when I can access them on GeForce now? The social/streaming aspect of Stadia is not a big draw for me either, so I really don't see the advantage from my perspective.
- awill 7y ago
  I'd be glad to pay a 'match' fee, where they match my library for a small fee per game. But buying $60 games again is not going to happen. This might mean I purchase future games on Stadia.... Maybe. But not games I already own. I feel that's a huge advantage of Nvidia's solution. I'd probably rather pay $10/mo to play my existing Steam games and continue buying games on Steam. Then I'd own them. If Nvidia closes their streaming service, I still have my games. If Google closed Stadia, you'd lose everything!
- ilovecaching 7y ago
  Stadia can be played on Chrome though which runs pretty much everywhere, with an Xbox controller. The Google founder's edition is just buying some extra stuff for 30$ worth of sub time for free basically.
  - rkeene2 7y ago
    The advantage to buying the Stadia controller, as I understand it, is that it (the controller) connects directly to the game instance and doesn't get proxied through the system streaming the game -- which can decrease latency.
- KukicAdnan 7y ago
  The big advantage Stadia has over GeForce Now is that for GeForce Now you have to have a machine capable of playing those games in the first place. If you have a great gaming PC, then Stadia probably isn't for you. Edit: I was mistaken. i was thinking on nVidia GameStream feature that allows you to stream from your PC to Shiled in your home.
edwinwee 7y ago
Overwatch support and it'd be an instabuy for me.
- hmage 7y ago
  You can sign up for GeForce Now -- it already has overwatch. I played it yesterday on my macbook. Felt like local.
b_tterc_p 7y ago
Is there a risk that they increase the subscription price and hold all of your games hostage if you’re unwilling to pay the new premium?
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  Yes. That's always a risk for something you're renting.
- drusepth 7y ago
  You don't need to have a subscription to buy or play your games. Without a subscription you can stream the games you buy at 60fps 1080p with stereo sound. With a subscription you can stream the games you buy at 60fps 4K with 5.1 surround sound. There's a risk that they increase the subscription price and hold _higher quality_ versions of your games hostage. Or, of course, there's the suicidal option of changing their pricing entirely such that free users can't stream the games they've bought (because what are you going to do about it?), but I'd imagine they'd shut down the entire service before trying to pull that off.
frou_dh 7y ago
Lossy video over IP is the Pink Slime of gaming.
madoublet 7y ago
Without including all the games in the subscription price, this feels like a really bad deal.
owaislone 7y ago
In 10 years, we are going the have the Netflix, Prime and Hulu for games but unlike movies I think most titles will be available on all platforms. Not sure whether Stadia will be a success or not but someone will be the winner in this market and become the next Netflix for games.
paxys 7y ago
$170 base price is a bit odd. Chromecast Ultra is $60, which means they are selling the controller for $110? For comparison, you can get an Xbox or PS controller for ~$60.
- KukicAdnan 7y ago
  Where do you see $170 base price? It's $130 and includes Ultra - $60 Controller - $60-70? 3 month Pro Subscription - $30 3 month Pro Sub for a Friend - $30 Destiny 2 Complete Edition - ~$100 So even without taking the game in account you're saving 30% of MSRP
  - paxys 7y ago
    Never mind, I was on the Canadian site for some reason. $130 is more reasonable, but I would still have expected them to sell the hardware at a discount to get more monthly subscribers. Also, you don't get to own Destiny 2, just play it while you have the pro subscription (i.e. similar to Xbox Live Gold benefits).
    - KukicAdnan 7y ago
      You are getting the hardware at a discount, and besides this is just the founders edition, you won't need a chromecast ultra to use Stadia in 2020. You'll just need Chrome.
scohesc 7y ago
I don't know why people aren't more concerned with the fact these giant companies are so large that they're able to take over entire markets extremely easily. I keep hearing "man, this <insert_product_here> by Google is absolutely awesome!" but it's getting more and more to the point where Google is taking over markets... It's getting concerning when silicon valley companies are getting large enough to be their own governments, with their own micro-countries built into their campuses (Google HQ, Apple HQ, etc. etc.) It's almost like the vatican in terms of size at this point.
- aroman 7y ago
  The product isn't set to launch for another half a year. How can you claim that it is already "taking over the market"?
  - sigzero 7y ago
    ThE maGic oF GoOglE!
paxys 7y ago
The fact that you have to pay full-price for games AND rely on a cloud service makes this a nonstarter for me. The only way this could work is with a good subscription gaming model like Xbox Game Pass or PS Now. Or you give me a guarantee that I can take my games to another platform once Google inevitably shuts this down.
- yegle 7y ago
  You can buy the game and use Stadia without subscription. You are capped at 1080p though.
  - worble 7y ago
    If you buy the game, do you actually own it though? Or do you lose it when Stadia shuts down? If I'm going to pay full price for a game, then I want to be able to play it 10 or 20 years from now.
    - nathankunicki 7y ago
      To be fair, this is little different to buying a game on the PlayStation Store or Xbox Store. As soon as those go offline, you will no longer be able to download those games. And so you'll be at the mercy of the lifespan of the hard drive. You won't be able to copy the games to another device as it won't be able to validate ownership.
      - zeusk 7y ago
        To be fair, PlayStation and Xbox have a lot longer and reliable track record compared to Google products. And so, you'll be at the mercy of the lifespan of yet another Google product.
      - paxys 7y ago
        An Xbox can play all games that have already been downloaded and all physical disks indefinitely, regardless of whether you have internet or whether Microsoft's servers are up.
ineedasername 7y ago
As a (slightly) more than casual gamer, this is a hard sell. I have a deep catalog of games in Steam & GOG, and having to re-purchase them is a non-starter, especially given alternative streaming services that let me use my back catalog. It's even more surprising that Google doesn't have some way of accounting for this because GOG does: at least for a limited selection of games, GOG let's you link to Steam and get the games into your GOG library.
- sigzero 7y ago
  I think you are not alone in that opinion. It seems like a bad choice to say to consumers "You have to buy those games again to use with Stadia.".
  - JeremyBanks 7y ago
    What is the alternative?
    - sigzero 7y ago
      They could have figured out a way. Other games systems do (see other posts).
    - lancepioch 7y ago
      You could import your Steam/Origin/Gog/etc library of stadia compatible games.
crummy 7y ago
If you're concerned (or curious) about the effects of latency on things like mouse movement, here's a simple little tool to test it: https://codepen.io/crummy/pen/YboVMQ https://codepen.io/crummy/pen/YboVMQ Personally 30ms seems fine, 50ms I can begin to tell a difference.
Androider 7y ago
Wait what, Baldur's Gate 3? And DOOM Eternal at 4K/60, they must be pretty confident about the latency... OK, I have to admit it's a pretty compelling alternative to upgrading my aging computer. I'll still wait for the reviews / Digital Foundry analysis, but I'm interested.
- ehsankia 7y ago
  There's a GDC talk by id Software porting DOOM to Stadia [0]. The speaker says that in the latest demos, the difference is basically not perceptible. They had a setup with two computers, one running Stadia and the other locally, and most people couldn't tell them apart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE
  - topkeks 7y ago
    Thanks for that video! It was really insightful.
hartator 7y ago
> Buy games whenever you want: Yes Not sure why a company like Google can't make a deal that will include AAA games in their subscription fees.
electriclove 7y ago
I feel like I'm missing something in regards to how this will work. I've already got a Chromecast Ultra and I already have PS4 controllers. I will be satisfied with 1080p gaming quality. Can I try this out for free or do I have to purchase a title? Do I need a laptop/phone that is casting to my TV? Can I use my PS4 controller? If so, what would it be connecting to - my laptop/phone?
- ThatPlayer 7y ago
  As far as I know, the Chromecast Ultra has no Bluetooth or USB support. That's why the new controller has direct Wifi support.
redorb 7y ago
By definition every game requires 'decent' internet. The fact they will still charge full price for the games and games you could've bought on disc or steam before are now 'internet required' ... means I'm out. Not just for the premium version but for the hardware and free versions as well.. After Google Wave and Google Reader ~ I'm not going to invest solid dollars vs hardware on premises.
notatoad 7y ago
If I buy a game on PS4, I can be reasonably confident it will continue working for as long as my PS4 physically continues to work. And then I can sell it when I'm finished playing it. I don't understand why I'd want to buy a game on stadia instead for the same price, not have the opportunity to resell it, and be at the mercy of Google shutting down the stadia servers whenever they feel like it.
rajacombinator 7y ago
So what’s the line on when google shuts this one down?
headsoup 7y ago
I am surprised by comments that seem to give Google the benefit of the doubt or do not show concern just because of how other services operate. It is up to Google to demonstrate they are capable of keeping an 'innovative' service running long-term, not customers wearing the risk (well it should be anyway). Really the only long term products Google has provided are those dependent on their Ad behemoth. Imagine all the games full of Ads...
Godel_unicode 7y ago
Hotel WiFi will never be usable again.
syspec 7y ago
This website is a complete rip off of the Apple.com/arcade website
dagaci 7y ago
I'm guessing this is probably walled garden approach, Stadia without multi-platform functionality, cross play. I doubt many AAA game Devs are ready to go all-in on Stadia, unless they are getting subsidies from Google so Stadia will compete with the Consoles, and PC elites. What would be great though is that if a really liked an played a game i played on my Hardware PC/Console, what would be great is that i could simply invite a set friends to play onetime through the cloud anywhere and all the friends would need to do is login to Stadia and get to play instantly through chrome.
wooptoo 7y ago
Why aren't licenses transferable cross-platform though? They give you the right to _use_ the product after all. One license should normally allow you to play on any platform you wish (xbox/pc/ps4/stevia) ans even transfer across platforms.
teslaberry 7y ago
they'll just bring the price down until it's free. and then if they keep supporting it, they might get a great audience.
Thyphex 7y ago
Good option for people with low spec pcs, mac people, linux people and people without a computer (mobile users) Plus steam already killed fisical media on pc anyways

183 points by endorphone 7y ago

I guess in terms of game development, Stadia will be like GitHub. As a service though, we'll see. Their reveal stream kept crashing, and there was noticeable lag during their initial GDC presentation.

michaelmior 7y ago
Could you explain what you mean by "like GitHub"?
- baroffoos 7y ago
  https://www.xkcd.com/624/ https://www.xkcd.com/624/
andy_ppp 7y ago
I'm guessing lag will depend on how far from the data center you are and might not be great initially but then could prove to be awesome in a year or two as more localised render farms appear.

minimaxir 7y ago

$10/mo was pretty much the only way they could price the service; however I didn't expect 4k to be the base resolution for the paid service. (thought it would be $10/1080p, $15/4k; having 1080p for free is interesting). Google needs to be more transparent about device support though. The stream highlighted Chromecast Ultra/Android, but not much else (e.g. if there is an iOS client, or compatibility with a base $35 1080p Chromecast/Chromecast protocol for smart TVs) [EDIT: the FAQ is more clear: https://support.google.com/stadia/answer/9338946 https://support.google.com/stadia/answer/9338946]

saynay 7y ago
From their site, as far as phones go only Pixel devices will be supported at launch. Support for other devices would be coming "later".
ulucs 7y ago
It's free after you pay for the games though. There needs to be some kind of free plan when you're making people buy (licenses to stream) games.
- ehsankia 7y ago
  Sure, but compute isn't free. The fact that you pay for a game once, and you get a dedicated console rendering and streaming the game to you for as long as Stadia exists is not a given. And the game costs just as much as normal retail, so whatever cut they are taking has to account for the cost of computer.
partingshots 7y ago
I doubt iOS is going to get access to Stadia. One of the primary perks for going with Android is that you’ll be have access to mobile gaming through Stadia that you can’t get with an Apple device.
- endorphone 7y ago
  Google isn't a company that restricts their services in such a coupled manner. I fully expect it to be supported on most devices where it's possible to support it.
  - lawrenceyan 7y ago
    In my opinion, restrictive would be keeping Stadia to only Google specific hardware. Making it available for all Android devices feels pretty good to me.
    - saynay 7y ago
      I would actually suspect more of the opposite. Their biggest hurdle, at least initially, is fighting the perception that the service just won't be performant enough to be a good experience. I would not be surprised if they start with a limited set of high-end devices (Apple ones included), just so people don't blame device limitations on the service instead.
- BinaryIdiot 7y ago
  I don't think so. Google has announced it would be coming to more phones and devices in the future and they consistently say "tablets" instead of ChromeOS tablets. It's a service, it would be silly to ignore literally a billion possible customers (or whatever the iOS numbers are now).
- wtmt 7y ago
  Considering that iOS users, on average, pay a lot more for software, games and services, it’d be stupid for Google to ignore a paying customer base. In any case, Google will not ignore iOS, like it hasn’t done so far in a big way. There are things that were released on iOS first by Google, like the Gboard keyboard, for example. So Google is not at all averse to iOS or in the habit of avoiding it in any way.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

Does MS have a patent on offset joysticks or does noone care that you can't strafe right and look left without smashing your thumbs together? Switch the dpad and left joystick.

minimaxir 7y ago
The current Stadia controller layout matches the PS4's controller.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  It matches all typical controllers so I can see why they did it, but the normal design is flawed. The joystick has to be offset to fit all hand sizes and thumb movements properly.
- alexland 7y ago
  Which is not a good thing IMO. The Xbox One controller has been much more comfortable for longer sessions for me.

haolez 7y ago

I think that an underestimated benefit of game streaming is anti-cheat. It would benefit a lot games like Fortnite and Pubg.

atq2119 7y ago
Competitive games, at least competitive shooter games, are really the worst application for this though because they suffer the most from input-to-display latency. Games like League of legends might be fine though.
- haolez 7y ago
  But assuming that the latency gets reduced to acceptable levels for competitive games, I see this distribution model as the only one to effectively fight cheaters. I would love to hear alternatives, though.
  - j-c-hewitt 7y ago
    That's a really big assumption. For a lot of genres the latency is just not going to be low enough.
- BinaryIdiot 7y ago
  Based on some rough, early estimates the input lag with Stadia is incredibly impressive. I originally thought it would never work for many types of games like you say but now I'm reserving judgement. It's not impossible at least.
- blueboo 7y ago
  They suffer from uneven or inconsistent input-to-display latency. If Stadia can give everyone the same, (hopefully) modest amount of latency, the games remain as fair as they ever were
  - bpye 7y ago
    It might be fair but that doesn't mean it will be enjoyable...

gamblor956 7y ago

And the betting on when this product will be shut down by Google has already begun...right now 3 years is the choice with the most money behind it. Some fools are guessing Google may give this as much as 5 years. Given Google's abysmal history of supporting its software and hardware products, see e.g., the Nest fiasco from a few weeks ago, only a fool or someone with cash to waste would invest in a Google hardware device before it's proven popular by the market.

Jabbles 7y ago
Google has a habit of getting bored of a service or, if it's not doing too well, just switching it off. Can you assure people that if they spend money on Stadia games, they are still going to have access to them in the coming years? I completely understand the question. I think there's a couple of things I would answer to that. One is our commitment to this business is extraordinary. If you look at the list of games, and crucially, the list of game companies that are backing Stadia, you can see the level of interest and support. Google is committed to this for the long term, we have made very significant financial investments in this. And we have an incredibly dedicated team who is helping to make Stadia reality. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48525703 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48525703 Words are cheap, though.
- ClassyJacket 7y ago
  "If you look at the list of apps, and crucially, the list of developers that are backing Android wear, you can see the level of interest and support. Google is committed to this for the long term, we have made very significant financial investments in this. And we have an incredibly dedicated team who is helping to make Android Wear reality." Google, 2014, probably. Words are very cheap.
  - Jabbles 7y ago
    That seems unfair - Wear hasn't been abandoned. It hasn't been an overwhelming success, but it's not been a complete failure either. https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS44901819 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS44901819 I can't see Google dropping it unless Apple abandons theirs first.

bt3 7y ago

Can someone explain the tech here? Obviously the brains of this is a Google data center beaming the game through a Chromecast to your TV (or in-app on your Pixel/ whatever). Is there any tech in the controller? What "costs" $129 if there's a subscription model attached to this? If the controller is indeed "dumb" (just sending inputs), why wouldn't there be compatibility with Xbox or PS4 controllers? If the history of non-main consoles has taught us anything (Nvidia Shield, Ouya, etc), you have to have games and a controller. Seems Google has games covered, but why try and reinvent the wheel with a new controller?

LUmBULtERA 7y ago
My understanding is that the controller supposedly connects directly to Google through WiFi rather than going through the device you're playing on.
- bt3 7y ago
  Hmm. Does this mean that the controller is the "brains", and after sending and receiving the game play data, then needs to beam it to your device? Or do the two devices (controller + screen) work together to handle some of this? I fear for the latency in general.
  - jitl 7y ago
    Neither device is the brains. The controller uploads inputs. The Chromecast downloads outputs. The brains is Google’s cloud.
  - LUmBULtERA 7y ago
    I would think it's just sending data on your inputs to the data center directly to reduce latency, but otherwise has no other brains.
- atq2119 7y ago
  Right. The idea seems to be that the controller directly talks to Google via WiFi to minimize the input latency, while the display device also directly talks to Google to minimize the output latency.

eckmLJE 7y ago

How are they overcoming the jarring effects of input latency? Even 20-30ms in input lag would turn a lot of people off, or is this primarily for casual games where this won't matter too much?

LUmBULtERA 7y ago
I played the AC Odyssey Stadia/Stream beta -- at least for that kind of single-player experience it felt comparable to console input lag with no jarring effects. I'd be interested in how it would be in twitch shooters though.
- boardwaalk 7y ago
  I played the beta too, but never a local copy of AC: O. I couldn't tell whether it was the game or Stadia or my connection (Google Fiber, no wi-fi), but it felt like walking through mud. If that's was just the nature of the game, that's not a very honest choice of game. Every game I've bought for myself is in recent memory was more responsive.
- dx87 7y ago
  I doubt twitch shooters would be playable. I've used steam's in home streaming, and platformers that require precise jumping accuracy are basically unplayable because even a fraction of a second hiccup in latency can get you killed. Even simple platformers like Crash Bandicoot can get frustratingly difficult to play over a stream. If the service gets popular enough, we might see developers making changes to help out players using Stadia, the same way that they add auto-aim for most console shooters, but disable it in the PC version.
  - Jabbles 7y ago
    even a fraction of a second This is meaningless unless you can be more precise.
    - lasagnaphil 7y ago

sergiotapia 7y ago

I don't like the Google account being tied to everything, email, youtube, stadia, analytics, photos, etc. I won't use it because of this

pkaye 7y ago
You can create multiple Google accounts.
- llukas 7y ago
  That google will associate and ban together.

KukicAdnan 7y ago

This is right up my alley being a pretty casual gamer. I have a 1GB Fiber connection at home so streaming shouldn't be an issue, the cost is fairly minimal, and not having the worry about downloading or updating games and just being able to pick up the controller and have a quick gaming session will be perfect. And the cost to entry is very low, so even if the service is a bust and I leave after the 3 free months, I'll still have a Chromecast Ultra that I've been looking to pick up anyway.

PhilippGille 7y ago
A 1 Gbit/s connection is a great bandwidth (you probably mean 1 Gbit/s and not 1 GB), bit the latency is even more important. If the game movements and actions lag behind your physical input, this can ruin the whole experience, no matter if the stream has a great quality (few compression artifacts, high resolution) thanks to the bandwidth. I only used the Shadow gaming VM service so far and the servers are in a neighbouring country, with 100 Mbit/s bandwidth and 30ms ping to 1.1.1.1, so not optimal conditions, but GTA IV, Minecraft and other games were not fun to play due to the input lag.
- ilovecaching 7y ago
  Yeah, you need to be next to a PoP where the game servers are running for an optimal experience.
- jayd16 7y ago
  With fiber he's probably getting 1ms pings.
  - KukicAdnan 7y ago
    Yeah according to Speedtest.net I'm getting 2ms ping. http://www.gcping.com/ http://www.gcping.com/ to the closest Google data center puts me at 12ms median.
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    This all depends on where you live and the infrastructure. I have 1 Gbit fiber, but in my country nearly all the infrastructure is concentrated in one of 2 cities, so I still have minimum 15/30ms (IPv6/IPv4) ping to everything since it has to travel across the country. edit: gcping.com puts me at 40ms

strikelaserclaw 7y ago

So you order some thin client for 129 bucks, pay 10 dollars a month for the service and buy the games? I was assuming Stadia to be like a sort of Netflix for games. I could just as easily buy a console and buy the games.

minimaxir 7y ago
You get some games free with the service like Destiny 2's expanded content (same as PSN Plus/Xbox Live Gold).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jasonlotito 7y ago
Or you just buy a controller and buy the games you want and that's it. You don't need to pay $10/month. You don't need to spend $129 right now. For free, you won't get 4k, you won't get discounts, and you won't get free games, but you you don't need to pay monthly.
saynay 7y ago
Strictly speaking, the minimum purchase is just one of the games on Stadia if you are going to be using Chrome on your PC and already own any HID-compatible controller. The $10/mo gets you 4K streams (you get 1080p without a subscription), and occasional free and discounted games (like PS+ does). At launch, the free title will be Destiny 2 + all expansions (including the one releasing later this year). The $129 gets you a Chromecast Ultra ($60), and the controller ($70), and 3 months of the subscription ($30) for you and a friend. Both the Chromecast and the controller are usable outside of Stadia.
jayd16 7y ago
Seems pretty competitive if you care about graphics fidelity and plan to play on more than one screen.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

haunter 7y ago

>We aren’t in your country yet Sounds about right. By the time it comes to EU it will be abandoned by Google and shut down in a year or so

what_ever 7y ago
> The Founder’s Edition will launch in United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland. Disc: Googler.
- krzyk 7y ago
  Still the same, I'm in Poland and they are not there yet :( From the list I see that they don't have any new EU states and they don't have even Portugal. Which is quite strange, because internet speed there on average much better (fiber is quite popular) than in the old EU. I think the issue is lack of google servers in those countries.
AnssiH 7y ago
If you are not seeing the page with OP link (which shows a region-specific page), try this direct link to the US store page: https://store.google.com/us/product/stadia_founders_edition https://store.google.com/us/product/stadia_founders_edition
pova 7y ago
I've bought google products before by shipping them to a middle man in Germany. I wonder if this would work with Stadia, as it requires recurrent payments and online activation.

jonathanhd 7y ago

This is astoundingly cheap. In fact its too cheap, €10/month works out to €360 + €130 over a 3 year hardware cycle which is barely enough for a not-really-capable 4k GPU as it is, without costing all the additional services/hardware. And to put it bluntly, these games are second-rate titles from the last year. From this announcement I guess that this is mostly just another data farming play that will never generate a profit on its own and has a very high chance of being shutdown within 3 years.

guiomie 7y ago
You are not taking into account for the fact that the hardware will be used constantly by multiple people on and on. I play on average 1 hour of video game a day, multiply that by 24, or 12 or 6 to be more conservative, you are still getting a good margin on hardware cost.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  He's right though, 10 is not enough. For fractional gpu use, bandwidth, electricity, and engineering, service support, business dev, and marketing salaries at the google level? Even if we assume that they can run 100 users on each GPU, that wouldn't be enough. (They can't run 100 users on each gpu, but even if they could.) There's some other play here? Not really sure what google's strategy is, but these prices make it clear they don't need to make money.
  - Fogest 7y ago
    They are also operating a game store... they take a cut there. Also likely will be ads.
  - t0mbstone 7y ago
    I wonder if they will use high-end servers with GPUs that can be used for serving stadia gaming users during peak gaming hours, and then for tasks like number crunching and machine learning during off hours?
- saynay 7y ago

king07828 7y ago

Surprised by the lack of an ad supported free version. Seems like applying the lessons they've learned from conquering internet search might be helpful, but apparently not.

BinaryIdiot 7y ago
I'm not sure I follow. You buy your games like you would with any console. It's just the console is "in the cloud" and you only pay the monthly subscription if you want the higher quality stream and the occasional free game (think PS Plus). How would an ad supported version fit into that model? I thought it was a fantastic model!
- king07828 7y ago
  Instead of having to buy a game, the user plays the game for free, but has ads as part of the game stream (e.g., a discrete banner ad at the bottom of the screen), which may only appear during load times or in character selection menus (i.e., not during a fight). An important aspect would be that the ads could not interfere with the game itself. This is like how Google sells ads and displays the ads in the search results in a discrete manner. The publisher/developer would receive a share of the revenue collected from the advertiser. OR do the 4K stream option with no monthly payment but have ads that don't interfere with the gameplay. I expect most have the knee-jerk reaction of "ADS?! N0! NEV3R!". But what if you get to play top games for free by ignoring ads that don't interfere with the game? Like how you get free internet search results by ignoring ads.
KukicAdnan 7y ago
There is a free version that's limited to 1080p/60fps coming in 2020. Games on the Pro subscription aren't free by the way either. Pro subscription just allows 4k/60fps streaming and some limited free games like Xbox Live and Playstation Plus. Most games whether on the Pro subscription or Free will still have to be bought by individuals.
- king07828 7y ago

bradenb 7y ago

I think this is a pretty reasonable price and I fully expect to pre-order, but I'm disappointed that the games must be purchased a la carte. I'd much rather pay a higher monthly fee and be able to play any games I wanted. I'm not sure how much more I'd be willing to pay, but I just think that purchasing titles that I don't own doesn't fit well with the streaming paradigm.

mfatica 7y ago
Yeah agreed, I was expecting streaming to be streaming - I don't purchase individual titles on Netflix. Maybe if it was transferable to PC or another platform I'd be more open to it.
- snug 7y ago
  > A free tier will be available some time in 2020, as will a paid subscription tier that doesn't require the upfront purchase. Wonder if the paid sub won't require a payment for games in the future. Even with a console you still have to pay to play online, so I don't see this as necessarily a huge problem if I have to pay $10 to get the online aspect and still pay for the games
  - mfatica 7y ago
    Makes sense, I went to their site to look more in depth and it seems with the Pro subscription you get some free games periodically and also a discount on select titles. That feels like a good middle ground actually
- freehunter 7y ago
  It's not like any of this is new territory either. Xbox Game Pass works like that (minus the streaming) and OnLive worked exactly like that (streaming + unlimited games). It's not an unreasonable demand.
crooked-v 7y ago
For me that's an immediate 'nah', because I entirely expect it to suddenly shut down at some point in the future (because, you know, Google).

octosphere 7y ago

I thought Google was just search and a few services like Drive, Docs, Gmail etc Shouldn't Stadia fall under the branch of Alphabet and omit all instances of using 'Google' in their marketing? Why use the Google name for something not remotely related to search?

mfatica 7y ago
Because the Google brand is still orders of magnitude more recognized than Alphabet especially in mass market. I would wager a decent chunk of their target audience doesn't even know what Alphabet is
- rhino369 7y ago
  I'm not even sure why they tried to brand a conglomerate holding company anyway.
  - paxys 7y ago
    They didn't. Alphabet has zero branding, barely even a web site. The stock itself is still called GOOG.
jefft255 7y ago
Google is much more than that; think Google Cloud, which I think this falls into. Also even hardware (Chromecast, Pixel) falls under the Google umbrella!
alekratz 7y ago
Brand identity, I suspect. They're the only folks in the world who are allowed to (legally) prepend "Google" to a service or product, which is essentially free marketing.
aroman 7y ago
Google is way more than search. YouTube, Cloud, Android, and Pixel are all part of Google.

falcolas 7y ago

Anyone know of a "how will Stadia perform on my ISP" check (all I see is a bandwidth check, which is not the same)? I'm not expecting anything (I'm on average 50ms ping to servers, 120ms ping if you include processing on the remote end), but it would be good to have confirmation. I'm also disappointed by the dramatic extension of the "you don't own the games you buy", since there's not even an option to download the titles and play offline. It gets more worrisome based on Google's demonstrated "go to HN" form of customer support.

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tschwimmer 7y ago
Check out Fast.com. If your loaded latency numbers are high, it's possible you won't do well with Stadia. The best test is going to be using it. There are too many factors to have a good predictive test.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  Last mile times are always going to cause lag. 5g won't be rolled out for years, then you'll need a phone to take advantage of it so that's not going to help. Last mile in US performance is really poor unless you're on full fiber which isn't offered in most of the US. Even with direct peering to the ISPs, which they don't have, this isn't likely to be a superior experience compared to a local machine. They'll have to push the entire video stream along with the intelligence. That's a lot of data that can't be lagged.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    > which they don't have, Can't directly refute this, but wouldn't you think GCP is peered with the vast majority of local ISPs (in America and maybe the EU)?
    - cannonedhamster 7y ago

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partiallypro 7y ago

I just don't see how they are going to compete with Microsoft on this, or Sony for that matter. I can't help but think this will be killed off in the next 2-3 years due to low adoption. Microsoft and Sony already have their foot in the door, and xCloud is supposedly going to be an E3 topic...and I'm sure they will bundle it with existing Xbox Live services for a bump in price. Google has proven me wrong in the past, but they've also killed a lot of products like this.

techntoke 7y ago
Uh, cross-platform gaming will be huge. It says it will work in a Chrome browser. This is running on Linux and using Vulkan as well, so I imagine the open source community will want to try to adopt these technologies more and more since it is clearly scalable and efficient enough to run a live streaming service of this magnitude. I'm happy to see less games developed in proprietary frameworks and to be supported on more operating systems than Windows.
- partiallypro 7y ago
  There's no denying the underlying idea is big, the question is can Google actually penetrate the market, or have the grit to see it through when adoption is low in the beginning. I'm betting no, but we'll have to wait and see.
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    First time someone gets bored at Google they will drop this like nothing with a month or two notice and any games purchased will be vapor. Google doesn't care about it's users. It's just another platform to extract data mining or ai from. Google makes massive unilateral consumer unfriendly changes before breakfast. They barely care about business customers. If you're not ads or ad related and bringing in money you're not worth anything.
    - FridgeSeal 7y ago
      You’re being downvoted, but you shouldn’t be, because you’re absolutely correct.

cma 7y ago

Doesn't work on Firefox

techntoke 7y ago
Probably cause Firefox is much slower than Chromium-based browsers, especially when it comes to hardware acceleration support for video streaming in Linux.

javajosh 7y ago

The architectural idea behind Stadia is interesting. The tacit assumptions here seem to be that the only games worth playing are multi-player, and also it's a real PITA to build a good gaming rig these days. The first assumption allows that there must be some shared state; and with the second, you extend the shared state to include the entire UI, and you use a video codec to ship it. Lots of benefits to Google and game authors in terms of DRM - players no longer even have access to the game code. Nor do they have access to the "low entropy" network messaging stack. There will be literally no opportunity to write low entropy bots (although Sikuli style keyboard/mouse bots will always be possible, of course). It's interesting to compare/contrast the trade-offs with traditional shrinkwrapped and more modern Steam/Blizzard style game distribution. It seems clear that Google wants to leapfrog Steam here, and go toe-to-toe with Netflix.

techntoke 7y ago
> also it's a real PITA to build a good gaming rig these days It's like as hard as putting together some legos. For $800 you can get a great setup these days.
- javajosh 7y ago
  Do you really believe this? I've actually looked into buying a gaming rig recently, and the amount of choices one has to make is impressive. Plus, even if picking and assembling hardware is easy (and it isn't for the average person), there is the aspect of system administration. I haven't admin'd a Windows box for a long time, but it's not a responsibility I'd take lightly.
  - techntoke 7y ago
    Yes, I really do. Just because there are a lot of options, doesn't mean it is difficult, just that you didn't have enough knowledge at the time that you felt comfortable with to make a decision. I'd encourage if you're going to buy to build it yourself. It is really easy, and pretty much everything is color coded. There are thousands of great videos you can watch too. Figure out what size of mobo and case you want, grab a Ryzen (my preference) CPU, and one or two Samsung M.2 drives. If you don't pick a case with a power supply, then add that to your cart and figure out what kind of graphics card you want. The RX 580 is a great deal, especially if you plan on using Linux. Grab some RAM and a compatible motherboard and you're good to go. All this for $800 or less, depending if you just stick with one hard drive. Installing Windows is super easy. You just plug in a USB drive and startup your computer. I'm not sure what kind of system administration you're looking for. If you're looking for a bunch of bloated unnecessary spyware, then yeah you'd prob be better off buying a computer at Walmart, but then again I am surprised you're on Hacker News if that is what you're after.

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tus87 7y ago

Won't work. The reason multiplayer games work over the internet is game engines compensate for latency by prediction. But when I move my mouse I don't want to wait a third of a second for the view to change. The problem with Google is they test everything on local 10G networks with near zero latency and the servers are walking distance away. Then they produce these abortions of products that are killed off 2 years later. Yeah basic input lag is about as enticing as a 2KG chunk of a plastic helmet strapped to my head. I bet in 10 years time we will still be playing on a PC with a GPU and a monitor on the desk.

vvanders 7y ago
Yup, as someone who wrote action networked games when I was in gamedev this is pretty on point. You're not going to get any chance at latency correction so jitter(which tends to be bursty) on the connection is going to really hurt you.
rossjudson 7y ago
You made me laugh when you said "servers are walking distance away". That's a lot of very long walks, friend.

vvanders 7y ago

Really not seeing how they pull this off. Even a couple of congested wifi channels is enough to put latency jitter into the connection that's noticable. Back in gamedev we did all sorts of tricks with dead reckoning and the like to hide/compensate for it. With the current architecture I don't buy that you'll be able to make those same saving adjustments.

duality 7y ago
Maybe a different class of games will do best on a streaming platform.

hyperpallium 7y ago

The problem with clown gaming is latency. Maybe it can find a place, at the right price (perhaps free), location, game type, mechanic and implementation. Here, google says the base will be free, but you have to buy the games. But will publishers drop their price enough? Would a low-quality version damage their franchise/brand? Second, will publishers modify their mechanics and implementation, to hide latency? The other way is with low-latency internet - so would need to be geographically close, like a city-sized LAN party. Perhaps Seoul? Both need to begin as disruptions, selling their strengths (cheap, convenient, simple, easy), in circumstances/usages where their weaknesses don't matter (latency, bandwidth), starting small and growing as work it out. e.g. a fun game that only really works as a cloud game. (is that possible?)

jonah 7y ago

> Stadia is not available in Hawaii. > Stadia is not available in Guam. Is this a bandwidth issue? Alaska is Ok though?

scoobydoo 7y ago
I was disappointed to see that as i'm in Hawaii ...i guess they don't have a data center in Hawaii or Guam?
mrep 7y ago
Most likely they don't have data centers in hawaii and thus the latency would be too high to stream it from the continental US.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

Is it just me or is google very good at a set of core products, but always puts out poor offerings when they try to expand into other spaces (G+, Glass, Stadia) I read on another forum the best description of Stadia - "imagine if netflix charged you for each movie on top of your subscription fee"

SoupyDolphin 7y ago

Discussions around Stadia always fail to mention the alternatives. I've been using GeForce Now with a Nvidia Shield for over a year now and it's been a great experience. The hardware costs are the same as the Stadia ($130), it's free to use while the beta period lasts, and you can play all the games you've already purchased on Steam, BattleNet, Epic etc. in 4k. Why would I buy all the games AGAIN on Stadia when I can access them on GeForce now? The social/streaming aspect of Stadia is not a big draw for me either, so I really don't see the advantage from my perspective.

awill 7y ago
I'd be glad to pay a 'match' fee, where they match my library for a small fee per game. But buying $60 games again is not going to happen. This might mean I purchase future games on Stadia.... Maybe. But not games I already own. I feel that's a huge advantage of Nvidia's solution. I'd probably rather pay $10/mo to play my existing Steam games and continue buying games on Steam. Then I'd own them. If Nvidia closes their streaming service, I still have my games. If Google closed Stadia, you'd lose everything!
ilovecaching 7y ago
Stadia can be played on Chrome though which runs pretty much everywhere, with an Xbox controller. The Google founder's edition is just buying some extra stuff for 30$ worth of sub time for free basically.
- rkeene2 7y ago
  The advantage to buying the Stadia controller, as I understand it, is that it (the controller) connects directly to the game instance and doesn't get proxied through the system streaming the game -- which can decrease latency.
KukicAdnan 7y ago
The big advantage Stadia has over GeForce Now is that for GeForce Now you have to have a machine capable of playing those games in the first place. If you have a great gaming PC, then Stadia probably isn't for you. Edit: I was mistaken. i was thinking on nVidia GameStream feature that allows you to stream from your PC to Shiled in your home.

edwinwee 7y ago

Overwatch support and it'd be an instabuy for me.

hmage 7y ago
You can sign up for GeForce Now -- it already has overwatch. I played it yesterday on my macbook. Felt like local.

b_tterc_p 7y ago

Is there a risk that they increase the subscription price and hold all of your games hostage if you’re unwilling to pay the new premium?

cannonedhamster 7y ago
Yes. That's always a risk for something you're renting.
drusepth 7y ago
You don't need to have a subscription to buy or play your games. Without a subscription you can stream the games you buy at 60fps 1080p with stereo sound. With a subscription you can stream the games you buy at 60fps 4K with 5.1 surround sound. There's a risk that they increase the subscription price and hold _higher quality_ versions of your games hostage. Or, of course, there's the suicidal option of changing their pricing entirely such that free users can't stream the games they've bought (because what are you going to do about it?), but I'd imagine they'd shut down the entire service before trying to pull that off.

frou_dh 7y ago

Lossy video over IP is the Pink Slime of gaming.

madoublet 7y ago

Without including all the games in the subscription price, this feels like a really bad deal.

owaislone 7y ago

In 10 years, we are going the have the Netflix, Prime and Hulu for games but unlike movies I think most titles will be available on all platforms. Not sure whether Stadia will be a success or not but someone will be the winner in this market and become the next Netflix for games.

paxys 7y ago

$170 base price is a bit odd. Chromecast Ultra is $60, which means they are selling the controller for $110? For comparison, you can get an Xbox or PS controller for ~$60.

KukicAdnan 7y ago
Where do you see $170 base price? It's $130 and includes Ultra - $60 Controller - $60-70? 3 month Pro Subscription - $30 3 month Pro Sub for a Friend - $30 Destiny 2 Complete Edition - ~$100 So even without taking the game in account you're saving 30% of MSRP
- paxys 7y ago
  Never mind, I was on the Canadian site for some reason. $130 is more reasonable, but I would still have expected them to sell the hardware at a discount to get more monthly subscribers. Also, you don't get to own Destiny 2, just play it while you have the pro subscription (i.e. similar to Xbox Live Gold benefits).
  - KukicAdnan 7y ago
    You are getting the hardware at a discount, and besides this is just the founders edition, you won't need a chromecast ultra to use Stadia in 2020. You'll just need Chrome.

scohesc 7y ago

I don't know why people aren't more concerned with the fact these giant companies are so large that they're able to take over entire markets extremely easily. I keep hearing "man, this <insert_product_here> by Google is absolutely awesome!" but it's getting more and more to the point where Google is taking over markets... It's getting concerning when silicon valley companies are getting large enough to be their own governments, with their own micro-countries built into their campuses (Google HQ, Apple HQ, etc. etc.) It's almost like the vatican in terms of size at this point.

aroman 7y ago
The product isn't set to launch for another half a year. How can you claim that it is already "taking over the market"?
- sigzero 7y ago
  ThE maGic oF GoOglE!

paxys 7y ago

The fact that you have to pay full-price for games AND rely on a cloud service makes this a nonstarter for me. The only way this could work is with a good subscription gaming model like Xbox Game Pass or PS Now. Or you give me a guarantee that I can take my games to another platform once Google inevitably shuts this down.

yegle 7y ago
You can buy the game and use Stadia without subscription. You are capped at 1080p though.
- worble 7y ago
  If you buy the game, do you actually own it though? Or do you lose it when Stadia shuts down? If I'm going to pay full price for a game, then I want to be able to play it 10 or 20 years from now.
  - nathankunicki 7y ago
    To be fair, this is little different to buying a game on the PlayStation Store or Xbox Store. As soon as those go offline, you will no longer be able to download those games. And so you'll be at the mercy of the lifespan of the hard drive. You won't be able to copy the games to another device as it won't be able to validate ownership.
    - zeusk 7y ago
      To be fair, PlayStation and Xbox have a lot longer and reliable track record compared to Google products. And so, you'll be at the mercy of the lifespan of yet another Google product.
    - paxys 7y ago
      An Xbox can play all games that have already been downloaded and all physical disks indefinitely, regardless of whether you have internet or whether Microsoft's servers are up.

ineedasername 7y ago

As a (slightly) more than casual gamer, this is a hard sell. I have a deep catalog of games in Steam & GOG, and having to re-purchase them is a non-starter, especially given alternative streaming services that let me use my back catalog. It's even more surprising that Google doesn't have some way of accounting for this because GOG does: at least for a limited selection of games, GOG let's you link to Steam and get the games into your GOG library.

sigzero 7y ago
I think you are not alone in that opinion. It seems like a bad choice to say to consumers "You have to buy those games again to use with Stadia.".
- JeremyBanks 7y ago
  What is the alternative?
  - sigzero 7y ago
    They could have figured out a way. Other games systems do (see other posts).
  - lancepioch 7y ago
    You could import your Steam/Origin/Gog/etc library of stadia compatible games.

crummy 7y ago

If you're concerned (or curious) about the effects of latency on things like mouse movement, here's a simple little tool to test it: https://codepen.io/crummy/pen/YboVMQ https://codepen.io/crummy/pen/YboVMQ Personally 30ms seems fine, 50ms I can begin to tell a difference.

Androider 7y ago

Wait what, Baldur's Gate 3? And DOOM Eternal at 4K/60, they must be pretty confident about the latency... OK, I have to admit it's a pretty compelling alternative to upgrading my aging computer. I'll still wait for the reviews / Digital Foundry analysis, but I'm interested.

ehsankia 7y ago
There's a GDC talk by id Software porting DOOM to Stadia [0]. The speaker says that in the latest demos, the difference is basically not perceptible. They had a setup with two computers, one running Stadia and the other locally, and most people couldn't tell them apart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz4b5psrhE
- topkeks 7y ago
  Thanks for that video! It was really insightful.

hartator 7y ago

> Buy games whenever you want: Yes Not sure why a company like Google can't make a deal that will include AAA games in their subscription fees.

electriclove 7y ago

I feel like I'm missing something in regards to how this will work. I've already got a Chromecast Ultra and I already have PS4 controllers. I will be satisfied with 1080p gaming quality. Can I try this out for free or do I have to purchase a title? Do I need a laptop/phone that is casting to my TV? Can I use my PS4 controller? If so, what would it be connecting to - my laptop/phone?

ThatPlayer 7y ago
As far as I know, the Chromecast Ultra has no Bluetooth or USB support. That's why the new controller has direct Wifi support.

redorb 7y ago

By definition every game requires 'decent' internet. The fact they will still charge full price for the games and games you could've bought on disc or steam before are now 'internet required' ... means I'm out. Not just for the premium version but for the hardware and free versions as well.. After Google Wave and Google Reader ~ I'm not going to invest solid dollars vs hardware on premises.

notatoad 7y ago

If I buy a game on PS4, I can be reasonably confident it will continue working for as long as my PS4 physically continues to work. And then I can sell it when I'm finished playing it. I don't understand why I'd want to buy a game on stadia instead for the same price, not have the opportunity to resell it, and be at the mercy of Google shutting down the stadia servers whenever they feel like it.

rajacombinator 7y ago

So what’s the line on when google shuts this one down?

headsoup 7y ago

I am surprised by comments that seem to give Google the benefit of the doubt or do not show concern just because of how other services operate. It is up to Google to demonstrate they are capable of keeping an 'innovative' service running long-term, not customers wearing the risk (well it should be anyway). Really the only long term products Google has provided are those dependent on their Ad behemoth. Imagine all the games full of Ads...

Godel_unicode 7y ago

Hotel WiFi will never be usable again.

syspec 7y ago

This website is a complete rip off of the Apple.com/arcade website

dagaci 7y ago

I'm guessing this is probably walled garden approach, Stadia without multi-platform functionality, cross play. I doubt many AAA game Devs are ready to go all-in on Stadia, unless they are getting subsidies from Google so Stadia will compete with the Consoles, and PC elites. What would be great though is that if a really liked an played a game i played on my Hardware PC/Console, what would be great is that i could simply invite a set friends to play onetime through the cloud anywhere and all the friends would need to do is login to Stadia and get to play instantly through chrome.

wooptoo 7y ago

Why aren't licenses transferable cross-platform though? They give you the right to _use_ the product after all. One license should normally allow you to play on any platform you wish (xbox/pc/ps4/stevia) ans even transfer across platforms.

teslaberry 7y ago

they'll just bring the price down until it's free. and then if they keep supporting it, they might get a great audience.

Thyphex 7y ago

Good option for people with low spec pcs, mac people, linux people and people without a computer (mobile users) Plus steam already killed fisical media on pc anyways