17 ms·

US demands social media details from visa applicants

372 points by bkudria 7y ago

benevol 7y ago
"The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers. When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually." [0] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48486672 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48486672
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  I don't think they've thought about how precise 100% compliance is literally impossible for those of us with catch-all email domains, unless we have a record of every email address at that domain we've ever given out or through which we've received unsolicited email. (Yeah, I realize that in practice they will probably accept partial compliance in that scenario, and that it won't affect me as a US citizen. But it could certainly affect people I care about.)
  - optymizer 7y ago
    It can be advantageous for the government to issue laws that citizens can't comply with. That way they can prove you lied because you haven't provided this one e-mail address that they were able to trace to you. Now you're a liar and they can hold that against you.
    - jkaplowitz 7y ago
      All true. This particular one has no impact on US citizens since we don't need US visas, but other overly demanding laws certainly can affect us, and even this one can affect non-citizens We care about (even ones we may count as family).
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    Yeah. Plus the hundreds of times I used bugmenot, or one of the open use mailbox accounts. Also see throwaway phone numbers.
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Couldn't you just write something like "All emails @mydomain.com" if asked you could explain how it works and they can't say that you ever lied.
    - jkaplowitz 7y ago
      I think the US nonimmigrant visa application must usually be done online (some exceptions exist) using an interactive series of web forms. So your solution works if and only if they don't apply validation rules to that input field and throw an error. I guess they may have some procedure to handle the case where technical limitations of the form prevent an accurate answer, but even if yes that's still a huge obstacle many applicants won't overcome. (Yes, applicants with the technical savvy to catch-all domains are more likely to be able and willing to overcome that type of barrier. Other categories of people will have a harder time, like who are sure they've forgotten some email addresses but don't remember enough details to reconstruct that info. They'll have to say exactly that, if they can even find a place to provide that answer, and possibly get refused as a result.)
mjevans 7y ago
All the more reason to not have them. Though email addresses? Are they demanding all pen-names too?
- _red 7y ago
  You can bet the big-tech companies are the ones suggesting what a great idea this is to government officials (ie. Regulatory Capture). It wouldn't surprise me that if in 10 years we all will need to have a minimal social presence to do routine things like travel.
- jaabe 7y ago
  I think it’s a lot easier to be anonymous if you keep them, but never use them for anything real. I quit using Facebook two years ago, but I didn’t stop posting the occasional picture of some event I attended. I simply uninstalled all their apps and deleted anything that I had ever posted which wasn’t completely irrelevant. I also deleted almost every picture of myself and prohibited people from ever tagging me. This way I look like a normal boring guy who likes board games if you glance over my profile, but you couldn’t actually get anything to use against me. It’s very Orwellian I guess, but it means I never have to explain why I’m not on social media.
  - kobayashy 7y ago
    So Orvelian, for a moment my world became black and white 1984 movie.
- addicted 7y ago
  My fear is the day when the absence of a social media presence itself makes you a suspicious character in the government, and AI’s eyes.
  - snazz 7y ago
    Do you have any reason to believe that it hasn’t already come? You’re certainly a suspicious character in the eyes of some employers for non-tech (and occasionally tech) jobs.
keerthiko 7y ago
“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” Immigrants are non-citizens are among the weakest members of American society (an outsize number of laws that impact them and zero capacity to participate in its political machinery)
- ycgeu 7y ago
  Non-citizens aren't members of the nation, so the US are okay if we base morality on that random quote.
  - Buttons840 7y ago
    That's not a satisfactory excuse or interpretation of the quote. Let's say North Korea selected a few of the leading family and declared they are "members", under such circumstances would that quote imply that North Korea is the greatest nation, because all its "members" have near King-like status? Or likewise, can a nation increase its greatness by declaring the weakest among them to be "non-members".
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    A non-citizen of decdes' residency, with family, business, social, community, and cultural interactions is not a member of the country[1]? ________________________________ Notes: 1. The US is technically not a nation-state, being a broad mix of numerous cultures. It is a state, or country, but not "nation". De facto of course, this is significantly modified.
- dudul 7y ago
  Do you realize a massive amount of immigrants are actually US citizens and have exactly the same rights as born Americans? With the exception of running for President.
  - keerthiko 7y ago
    typo, I meant "immigrants and non-citizens", not "immigrants are non-citizens", can't edit
redbluegreen 7y ago
Do I have to submit all my spam email addresses as well? Madness
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- evolve2k 7y ago
  There’s the loophole. Just send them all 500 of your email addresses!
joelbondurant 7y ago
Socialists won't stop until police robots shoot kids for jaywalking.
AaronFriel 7y ago
This will have a chilling effect on speech in this country, which is extremely sad. Academic and trade conferences would be best taken elsewhere. And job seekers? Prefer remote. For me as an American, this is, I guess, fine now. I won't be affected right away. But I fully expect other countries to institute reciprocal policies.
- human20190310 7y ago
  1) Doesn't the First Amendment restrict the US government from curtailing free expression and free association anyplace, not just within US borders? 2) Isn't anything that results in a "chilling effect" tantamount to restriction? I expect this will have a chilling effect abroad, among people who travel to the US, more than within the US.
  - AaronFriel 7y ago
    Not a lawyer, so I can only speculate as a layperson 1) Sure, if you're a US Citizen, I don't think non-resident, non-citizens outside of the United States are entitled to any protections 2) That would be my opinion. Maybe a frequent¹ conference speaker¹ with outspoken political views² from a European country could mount a challenge that requiring social media profiles in order to enter the country amounts to a chilling effect and consequent prior restraint on speech in the United States ¹ - The conditions under which a person qualifies for the visa waiver program are complicated ² - I imagine a political dissident or someone equally outspoken who has used anonymous social media profiles to protect their livelihood would have the strongest case
    - eftychis 7y ago
      Just to add a bit on this. The (U.S) Bill of Rights applies to any person on U.S. soil. (That is a common misconception apparently but like many modern constitutions it refers to persons and not citizens). There is the gray area surrounding around the periphery of the U.S. and borders (https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone) (Essentially the U.S. government reasons that the area surrounding the border is U.S. soil for CBP, and not U.S. soil for anyone else.)
drskaugen 7y ago
Just filled in ESTA application, it is not demanded as the question regarding social media does not have to be answered.
- jkaplowitz 7y ago
  ESTA is an application for permission to travel to the US by air carrier or cruise ship to apply for admission under the Visa Waiver Program. As the word Waiver suggests, that permission is not a visa. People of VWP nationalities can apply for true US visas, but for short-term tourist or business visits there's usually no reason for them to bother unless they've been individually denied VWP eligibility or they want one of the few extra procedural rights which come from the visa and not through the VWP. All of which is to say, maybe they're only asking this horrible new question of true visa applicants and not VWP applicants.
  - DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
    I’d wager VWP visitors outnumber Visa applicants by a wide margin. Assuming they actually intend to perform even a cursory check of each social media account they’ll get bogged down for hours by trying to prove someone lying about not having a certain account. As an aside: someone posted a screenshot of the form showing one of the named sites was MySpace but doesn’t include Telegram (and you can use Telegram without a username too). Anyway - I hope someone comes to their senses (perhaps an ACLU lawsuit re: should people be forced to disclose membership of sites like Grindr?) and they remove the stupid question.
    - jkaplowitz 7y ago
      My guess (pure speculation) is that they won't manually check most social media accounts indicated on the form, but will automatically check the provided info against (and add the provided info to) some intelligence community database. Then they'd manually check any cases where security concerns are flagged by that database or otherwise.
diveanon 7y ago
I meet a lot of tourists on a daily basis, and I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time. I can't imagine how much worse it is for people that are forced to travel there for business. If the United States is trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world it is definitely succeeding. As a side note, I have not spoken to a tourist from the US on the island where I live in several months. However there is a literal flood of French, German, Chinese, Dutch, Singaporean, etc. Last night I had dinner with an Uzbek and Tanzanian couple. Where are you guys?
- avocado4 7y ago
  >> "I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time." US had the 3rd largest number of tourists in the world in 2017 (after France and Spain). [1] Though YOY is trending down in Trump years. [1] https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284419876 https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284419876
  - diveanon 7y ago
    I did not see a breakdown by age demographic in that report. The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US. Maybe that will change once they have kids who want to go see Harry Potter World in Orlando, but as it stands I think most of my customers would rather visit North Korea than the US.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US I’m a millennial with lots of international millennial friends. Nobody likes these measures. But getting into most countries is no walk in the park. As much as I hate to admit this, the pressure to end these policies will never come from tourists.
qrbLPHiKpiux 7y ago
This is an unintended consequence of social media. It is the same as it was centuries ago. If you’re known to criticize someone else, and it gets back to them, of course there will be ramifications. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with this comment. I’m just stating fact.
gniv 7y ago
Also discussed a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065142
- incompatible 7y ago
  I has been discussed several times, including over a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16710838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16710838 I remember one thread which I can't find, which considered whether Hacker News counted as a site that should be disclosed. I also seem to remember a claim that having an account on a site with "Hacker" in the title was an automatic disqualification. Hmm, this is the one I was thinking of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635403 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635403
- dang 7y ago
  Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20075608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20075608 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20071287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20071287
jammygit 7y ago
Everyone knows that the real danger of all this tracking and social media is that governments will start stealing the data and using it against people, or else by censoring things/manipulation. This is how it starts in-earnest, rather than half heartedly. See China for a demo of the future
pgt 7y ago
If enough heretics have your name in their social network, your visa will be denied. Requiring social media on visa applications is like enforcing everyone to use Truecaller (don't use it!). This feels like the start of a U.S. social credit system.
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Not a fan of this, but the US is late to the game -- and has received criticism because of it. Most developed countries already screen social media when processing visa applications.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Source?
  - llamataboot 7y ago
    oh, make no mistake the US /already/ screened this stuff. My now-wife had all her social media pages printed out and waiting for her on an entry to the US in the Obama years. Difference is now they can ban you for lying...
    - mysterypie 7y ago
      Since you have actual first-hand knowledge of border officials doing social media questioning, could you tell us more about this? What did they ask her? What prompted them to print out the social media pages? Which social media sites? What country was she coming from? How long did they question her?
      - llamataboot 7y ago
        I mean, keep in mind this was 8 years ago. Not sure why they had them printed out - could have been to review them, could have been for intimidation. IIRC they asked her why she had changed her FB location to the American city she would stay in for the next 3 months, asked a bunch of questions about past posts in the US talking about helping build our home, buy decorations, etc (all as proof she was intent on overstaying her visa, which was vaguely ridiculous as we had applied for a fiance visa at that point, so she was pretty clearly intending on living here, but we were also pretty clearly intending on going through the legal visa process) Also asked a bunch of questions about some posts she had made seeking design clients in the US as proof she was working here illegally (even though she owned her own design business and paid taxes on it in Europe, obviously are allowed to take on US clients, but they were sketched out that she was soliciting US clients while in the US) They questioned her for about an hour with no access to phone/lawyer/etc and gave her the option of immediately voluntarily leaving the US. At the end of the process they told her that it would be the last time she could enter the US on an ESTA and next time it would have to be on the fiance visa, they also told her verbally she had to leave within 14 days, but they still stamped her for a 3 month entry as per regular ESTA guidelines. -- It was mostly a bunch of silliness about work/residency/intent to work without a work permit/intent to stay in the US without a visa even though all things were aboveboard. The most concerning to me remains that her facebook at the time was not in any legal name, certainly not the name the passenger manifest, but she was still obviously tracked down
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
apo 7y ago
Very discouraging to see this, especially because the overreach appears to have no limit. Today it's visa applications. Tomorrow it could be US citizens trying to get passports, driver licenses, or collect social security/medicare benefits. On the other hand, a growing awareness of the many dangers posed by poor digital hygiene could ultimately lead to greater interest in privacy tools and practices. Along the road, though, lives will be destroyed as the ground shifts underneath them. Especially troubling is the possibility that previously-legal activities could be punished well into the future if not outright prosecuted.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  > Tomorrow it could be US citizens trying to get passports, driver licenses, or collect social security/medicare benefits. Not really, since jurisprudence gives the executive a very wide latitude in deciding which foreigners to grant the privilege of entering the US. Much wider than it would give if it were a question of citizens applying for documents that they’re entitled to.
  - apo 7y ago
    The groundwork for domestic implementation is already in place: https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/israel-texas-anti-bds-law/ https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/israel-texas-anti-bds-la...
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      Yes and the federal courts are taking her side (so far): https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/26/Texas-bahia-amawi-speaks-out-against-anti-israel-boycott/ https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/26/Texas-bahia-amawi-sp...
jacques_chester 7y ago
One of the reasons immigration laws ask so many questions is to set up an easy way to deport unwanted people without the tedious bother of an actual trial. This seems like a goldmine. Forgot an email? Didn't turn over your account details on pornhub? Had a single-use throwaway account you can't remember the password for? Congratulations, you qualify for easy eviction.
athaca 7y ago
does this impact Eb2/EB3 green card applications and TN visas as well?
darkteflon 7y ago
“If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.” - Cardinal Richlieu, 17c.
icxa 7y ago
Which is funny and shows that none of this virtue signaling matters because Turkey still has an unacknowledged genocide on their record and a militaristic leader with dictator-like aspirations who throws stages coups to enhance his favorability. I imagine many still desire to come to the USA (amongst the most are Indians) and they just aren't advertising it as loudly because it doesn't earn you any woke cred on the twitters.
- diveanon 7y ago
  Your reply was fine until you edited in that "woke" nonsense to try to make yourself sound clever. It might just be that YOY growth without a rolling average is always going swing wildly when a country has a lot of negative news cycles in a year and then goes relatively quiet. The US has been looking pretty bad, pretty consistently, for a long time now.
  - icxa 7y ago
    I don't care about sounding clever mate, especially not to internet strangers. The more obvious answer to me is the wealth of the globe has increased YoY as well, mainly thanks to capitalism, so America isn't the primary destination for opportunity anymore, which is a good thing.
- orhmeh09 7y ago
  TBF, Turkey is cheaper for many people both in terms of transportation costs and the value you get for your money. I doubt it’s a coincidence rnce that the lira has been dropping so much in value (30% last year) that international shopping tours were organized Turkey is also trying to position itself as a transport hub so I’ve noticed a lot more people staying in the country for 1-3 days to see a few of the sights. Going to the US is too expensive for many who aren’y in neighboring countries. It’s also hard to get around.
- dang 7y ago
  Please do not take HN threads into nationalistic or political flamewar. Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and following them when posting here? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20078978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20078978 and marked it off-topic.
kobayashy 7y ago
Gee, Imagine a horror tring to explain your profile on HN
Numberwang 7y ago
Are the requirements on the social media profiles 'higher' on the visitors than on their own population? That doesn't make sense.
DC-3 7y ago
Whatever happened to 'those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither', America?
- craftyguy 7y ago
  It's dead, Jim.
- dmode 7y ago
  That was just a feel good message like “All men are created equal” or separation of church and state
  - masonic 7y ago
    separation of church and state ... is not an element of the U.S. Constitution. It simply prevents establishment of an official religion.
glbrew 7y ago
My reddit throwaways too?!?
- mattigames 7y ago
  SPECIALLY your reddit throwaways (and incl. twitter/fb/instagram/porhub throwaways too)
freeflight 7y ago
I'm a bit confused, hasn't this been happening for years already? [0] [1] [2] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16810312 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16810312 [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/22/14066082/us-customs-border-patrol-social-media-account-facebook-twitter https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/22/14066082/us-customs-bord... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/06/01/us-now-can-ask-travelers-facebook-twitter-handles/102393236/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/06/01/us-now-ca...
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  It's been an optional question for people unless they had been to certain areas recently in the middle east.
HeavenFox 7y ago
As any US Visa applicant can attest to, the DS-160 is already some of the most annoying form you have to fill - in fact for most people it's less pleasurable than doing 1040. In addition to asking for details of every school you went to, every job you had, every country you've been to, they ask you questions like this: >> Have you ever violated, or engaged in a conspiracy to violate, any law relating to controlled substances? >> Are you coming to the United States to engage in prostitution or unlawful commercialized vice or have you been engaged in prostitution or procuring prostitutes within the past 10 years? >> Have you ever been involved in, or do you seek to engage in, money laundering? >> Have you ever committed or conspired to commit a human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States? >> Are you the spouse, son, or daughter of an individual who has committed or conspired to commit a human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States and have you within the last five years, knowingly benefited from the trafficking activities? >> Have you knowingly aided, abetted, assisted or colluded with an individual who has committed or conspired to commit a severe human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States? >> Do you seek to engage in espionage, sabotage, export control violations, or any other illegal activity while in the United States? >> Do you seek to engage in terrorist activities while in the United States or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities? >> Have you ever or do you intend to provide financial assistance or other support to terrorists or terrorist organizations? >> Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization? >> Have you ever ordered, incited, committed, assisted, or otherwise participated in genocide? >> Have you ever committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in torture? >> Have you committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in extrajudicial killings, political killings, or other acts of violence? >> Have you ever engaged in the recruitment or the use of the child soldiers? >> Have you, while serving as a government official, been responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom? >> Have you ever been directly involved in the establishment or enforcement of the population controls forcing a woman to undergo an abortion against her free choice or a man or a woman to undergo sterilization against his or her free will? >> Have you ever been directly involved in the coercive transplantation of human organs or bodily tissue? And now, this. And don't get me started on the stupid fact that you cannot renew your US visa within the US, and in the end people on student/work visas have to take the pointless trip to Canada/Mexico just to get a new visa. I hope someone eventually realizes visa applicants are people too.
glbrew 7y ago
I think it is fantastic our beloved government is making these admirable changes to protect us!
- craftyguy 7y ago
  I don't. It's fear-mongering bullshit.
  - godelski 7y ago
    I assumed the parent was being sarcastic. Though HN isn't really the best place for comments like that (without added context or /s)
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      I think the word 'beloved' did all the job of an /s tag and more.
- benatkin 7y ago
  That's some quality sarcasm. Thank you for that.
- suyash 7y ago
  You think so, wait till they start collecting all kinds of things for all sorts of purposes beyond so called "protection".
godelski 7y ago
This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I don't really hear how great the melting pot is anymore (I can only think of a few times in the last decade). Maybe it was just childhood naivety. But it also seems to me that it isn't just the US that is becoming isolationist. So I have to imagine that there's something, at least in western culture, that is changing.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  Are you familiar with US history? Isolationism runs deep and wide.
  - godelski 7y ago
    Yes and no. I don't think it is black and white. While I'd say that there are isolationist aspects it isn't like how China has been (probably deserved considering the British). There's definitely a scale. We clearly aren't North Korea, which is what people think of when they think of an isolationist country. But I also can't think of a country that isn't at least a little isolationist. So I wouldn't say that isolationism runs deep. It is definitely there, I would definitely say that it is a escarpment but that doesn't mean it is the Grand Canyon or the Marianas Trench.
    - jorblumesea 7y ago
      I don't think you understand, the US has a long and well established history of this, even to the point of formal political policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-intervention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Doctrine_of_Unstable_Alliances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Doctrine_of_Unstabl...
ktpsns 7y ago
So what prevents me from leaving the requested fields empty or even put wrong account names on it? What if I lie about my phone number? Will they call me to check wether it rings in my pocket? Will they write me an email to check wether I recieve it?
- Jach 7y ago
  Presumably something at the bottom you sign that says the information above is true to the best of your knowledge under penalty of perjury. Willing to risk 5 years in prison for lying?
  - mattigames 7y ago
    What if I close my social media accounts just before applying, I'm telling the truth when I leave them empty right? I don't think the government thought this through.
  - rjsw 7y ago
    The old visa waiver form asked whether you were a gunrunner, everyone lied about that. This was when strong crypto was classed as a munition.
- pimlottc 7y ago
  If you leave them blank, they could just send you a request for the missing information and wait until you send it. If they discover you have knowingly lied on your application, then you can forget about visiting the US for a long time.
- shiado 7y ago
  They corroborate your story with the data the NSA has stored and then permanently ban you from the USA for life for lying because Facebook was forced to give them your IP which is tied to the Gmail account Google was forced to disclose information about where your flight booking information was received.
makecheck 7y ago
This was stupid when it was just potential employers expecting this information, and it’s even stupider here. Let’s see how many bad reasons for this I can come up with in 30 seconds: 1. Social media may be popular but it is not universal (I still know people without a Facebook profile for instance). Thus, while the government should expect that someone may truthfully answer “I don’t have social media accounts”, I’ll bet money that anyone actually giving that answer on their visa application is screwed. 2. Huge numbers of social media profiles are completely FAKE. Combined with #1 above, if you don’t actually use a particular site but it seems like you do, you are again screwed. 3. Some people have extremely common names and legitimately do not want their pictures posted. Therefore, it is likely there are hundreds of real accounts with your name, many even in your city, that are not you. If the government is trying to determine if you “lied” about having an account, how many of these are they going to accuse you of owning? Or are they just going to conclude, based on the stuff being posted by those people, that your application should be denied? 4. The government does not run these sites, corporations do (and ultimately, random employees made some rules for running them). Suppose #2 above occurs, and someone is posting insane stuff as “you”; great, now your entire damned visa application is in danger, and some random set of rules made up by an employee at Facebook or Twitter is going to decide your fate. Can you get the profile taken down? Ask Facebook. Can you “prove” the profile is not you? Follow random rules from Facebook. And so on. 5. Not everything I do is on social media. And if I were to set up a secret club or criminal enterprise, do you think I’d be writing about it on Twitter and Facebook?!?!? What will exist on social media for a lot of people is an endless firehose of crap, which will mostly give the government way too much information to sift through. It will be a huge waste of time. In other words, this policy can definitely hurt legitimate applicants and is not likely to add any useful information when screening applicants that “should” be denied.
- mLuby 7y ago
  >if I were to set up a secret club or criminal enterprise, do you think I’d be writing about it on Twitter and Facebook You'd be surprised… :D >In other words, this policy can definitely hurt legitimate applicants and is not likely to add any useful information when screening applicants that “should” be denied. Exactly, I think that's the point. "Give me six lines written by an honest man and I will find something in them which will hang him." (~Card. Richelieu) All that extra content from social media will give decisionmakers plenty of latitude to justify whatever decision they already wanted.
jorblumesea 7y ago
It's interesting how the US implements a policy, and is rightfully scorned for it. Meanwhile Europe continues to do similar things, yet Europe implements similar policies, and no one cares. Politics as usual I guess. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754/Immigration-officers-to-check-social-media-of-applicants-to-root-out-fanatics.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754...
- nutjob2 7y ago
  The immigration policies of the UK are very much not representative of other European countries.
  - jorblumesea 7y ago
    That's not my point, you don't see UK under the microscope. Just seems to be another case of "US bad/Europe good".
    - llukas 7y ago
      UK is not in Schengen zone - so it is not "Europe" - even EU citizens go through customs when entering UK (unlike within Schengen zone).
      - jorblumesea 7y ago
        That's not what I'm getting at, I'm not debating Europe vs "Europe". It's when a Europe area country does something, everyone seems to give them a pass. When the US does something similar, it's viewed with a different perspective.
        llukas 7y ago
        Which country in Europe has has policies affecting 300M+ people (domestic) and eagerly exports it's policies to other countries?
    - 7y ago
robocat 7y ago
I am happy to never visit the US due to the rules. However it sucks that the US is the easiest/cheapest way to transit to many countries. However I can't transit through say LA without "entering" the US. So I can't visit other countries easily (especially Canada, or central America).
- fastball 7y ago
  Huh? If you don't want a visa, why do you care about this?
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    They explained that pretty clearly. The US insists that you are entering their country if your route of travel passes through US territory. So sensible routes to lots of other countries that don't themselves have obnoxious rules are off limits if you don't want the US nosing thorough everything.
    - fastball 7y ago
      If your social network accounts are public, the NSA can already see them, it doesn't matter if you explicitly give them your username. If your accounts are not public, giving them your username won't really do anything. I'm still not sure I see the problem? "Oh no, I'm traveling through the US and now they know that I have a social network account!" ?? They already knew that if you were actually a person of interest.
      - robocat 7y ago
        But the TSA and whatever other relevant departments don't have access to the NSA databases (or don't publicly show it, same thing from my POV). I perceive that I might be denied entry to the US because someone shares a photo of me doing something the US doesn't like .. Then my trip to Canada gets cancelled, and I get to say "yes" when asked by every other country "have you ever been denied entry". Meanwhile I must also provide biometrics. And it is a federal form. The theoretical risk is high (although actual risk is low if you are a normal person).
ratling 7y ago
Because americans are stupid and short sighted. We've seen what happens when you double down on isolationism. Japan sells more adult diapers than baby ones. But hey, when you spend 8 years screaming BROWN MAN BAD it's not surprising you make dumb decisions in other aspects of your life.
maxxxxx 7y ago
What are they going to do with these? Just take a quick look or constantly keep monitoring them?
- dredds 7y ago
  They will go into a yuge database and you can lay pretty good odds on what will happen next.
kndjckt 7y ago
What happens if you run / have run a social media account for a company?
suyash 7y ago
Perhaps it would help is US Gov explicitly mentions that they are looking for and specially what are the red flags that they consider in applicant social media accounts.
billforsternz 7y ago
I travelled to the US recently for the first time in 20 years or so. I had to apply for a Visa waiver (ESTA) and from memory they had a social media section that was flagged as "optional". I'm not big on social media and decided that my rarely used accounts would be of no use or interest to anyone. If I remember correctly though I did put my Github account on there (unless my memory is playing vicious tricks on me, yes Github was listed). Call me crazy but I decided that if the US government was interested in my C++ chess code, great! I did gird my loins for a horribly unwelcoming experience at the airport (semi off topic but widely discussed here). At JFK it was actually super nice, but we were first off the plane and there was no queue to hit. We did take a side trip to Canada and had to enter the US again at O'Hare and that was a different story entirely. Seemingly a million planes arriving at once. Even miserable looking and bemused cabin crew queuing from here to eternity. When we finally got to the head of the queue(s) the over-worked, under manned staff were perfunctory but non unpleasant. I haven't seen anything as disorganised and shambolic in arrivals at a European airport ever, but maybe I've just been lucky.
- SmokeGS 7y ago
  oh fuck, that's so true. O'hare is almost murder on non-us citizens if that is their airport of entry.
- prawn 7y ago
  I’m here in the US via ESTA (sixth time in ten years maybe? More?). Three month road trip. I have active social accounts (not without a political slant) and didn’t list them. Didn’t seem to be a factor when I came through (with wife and kids), nor previous trips. Colleague with minimal social profile but travelling by himself copped a three hour pressure-grilling last year. They were most concerned with the idea that he’d try to work and overstay.
dmode 7y ago
This is just nuts. I have several social media accounts and in many of them I have said not so nice things about various governments across the world, including the American government. Wonder how that will be treated.
hannofcart 7y ago
I wonder if there is any sort of oversight of the process to ensure that the determination made as to whether to approve or deny is not arbitrary. While I will grudgingly hand over my social media details, and I have no fear of being linked to terrorism or calls for violence or anything of the sort, I am worried that my anti-Trump posts (I'm an avid follower of American politics despite not being American) and other posts condemning Republican party politics will hurt my chances. Again, I've never called for any violence against the man, but have indeed called him a moron more than a few occasions.
codedokode 7y ago
It might be difficult to provide the truthful answers. For example, I don't remember all of my current phone numbers, let alone those that I might have used in the past. Also, I don't remember all the names of fake SNS accounts I created, and don't remember throwaway email account names. Also, US three-letter agencies already have access to Google, Twitter, Facebook and have all necessary information, as Snowden has said, so I guess it makes no sense to provide it again. Maybe they just are trying to build a cause to be able to deport anyone from the country or reject entry. In this case it would be better to pass a law that allows to do it. Also this is a good reminder that you better not post too much details about yourself in social networks, otherwise it can be used against you. And Hackernews is not considered a social network, right?
goodold 7y ago
So is PornHub considered a social media?
unionpivo 7y ago
What I wonder is what is considered a social media. Twiter, facebook, linkedin sure. But is github social media site? How about medium ? Steam webstore ? How about reddit and hackernews ? Stackowerflow ?
- blablabla123 7y ago
  Exactly, also what about E-Mail accounts from the 90s of which I hardly remember the spelling? What about usenet? Oh, and I must guarantee that everything is correct. If this applies also for the visitor visa, this is really not good news. I don't care that they ask about why I visit, about the person I visit, what is my relationship to that and more personal questions. But it's starting to get a bit too much.

372 points by bkudria 7y ago

"The State Department regulations say people will have to submit social media names and five years' worth of email addresses and phone numbers. When proposed last year, authorities estimated the proposal would affect 14.7 million people annually." [0] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48486672 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48486672

jkaplowitz 7y ago
I don't think they've thought about how precise 100% compliance is literally impossible for those of us with catch-all email domains, unless we have a record of every email address at that domain we've ever given out or through which we've received unsolicited email. (Yeah, I realize that in practice they will probably accept partial compliance in that scenario, and that it won't affect me as a US citizen. But it could certainly affect people I care about.)
- optymizer 7y ago
  It can be advantageous for the government to issue laws that citizens can't comply with. That way they can prove you lied because you haven't provided this one e-mail address that they were able to trace to you. Now you're a liar and they can hold that against you.
  - jkaplowitz 7y ago
    All true. This particular one has no impact on US citizens since we don't need US visas, but other overly demanding laws certainly can affect us, and even this one can affect non-citizens We care about (even ones we may count as family).
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  Yeah. Plus the hundreds of times I used bugmenot, or one of the open use mailbox accounts. Also see throwaway phone numbers.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Couldn't you just write something like "All emails @mydomain.com" if asked you could explain how it works and they can't say that you ever lied.
  - jkaplowitz 7y ago
    I think the US nonimmigrant visa application must usually be done online (some exceptions exist) using an interactive series of web forms. So your solution works if and only if they don't apply validation rules to that input field and throw an error. I guess they may have some procedure to handle the case where technical limitations of the form prevent an accurate answer, but even if yes that's still a huge obstacle many applicants won't overcome. (Yes, applicants with the technical savvy to catch-all domains are more likely to be able and willing to overcome that type of barrier. Other categories of people will have a harder time, like who are sure they've forgotten some email addresses but don't remember enough details to reconstruct that info. They'll have to say exactly that, if they can even find a place to provide that answer, and possibly get refused as a result.)

mjevans 7y ago

All the more reason to not have them. Though email addresses? Are they demanding all pen-names too?

_red 7y ago
You can bet the big-tech companies are the ones suggesting what a great idea this is to government officials (ie. Regulatory Capture). It wouldn't surprise me that if in 10 years we all will need to have a minimal social presence to do routine things like travel.
jaabe 7y ago
I think it’s a lot easier to be anonymous if you keep them, but never use them for anything real. I quit using Facebook two years ago, but I didn’t stop posting the occasional picture of some event I attended. I simply uninstalled all their apps and deleted anything that I had ever posted which wasn’t completely irrelevant. I also deleted almost every picture of myself and prohibited people from ever tagging me. This way I look like a normal boring guy who likes board games if you glance over my profile, but you couldn’t actually get anything to use against me. It’s very Orwellian I guess, but it means I never have to explain why I’m not on social media.
- kobayashy 7y ago
  So Orvelian, for a moment my world became black and white 1984 movie.
addicted 7y ago
My fear is the day when the absence of a social media presence itself makes you a suspicious character in the government, and AI’s eyes.
- snazz 7y ago
  Do you have any reason to believe that it hasn’t already come? You’re certainly a suspicious character in the eyes of some employers for non-tech (and occasionally tech) jobs.

keerthiko 7y ago

“A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” Immigrants are non-citizens are among the weakest members of American society (an outsize number of laws that impact them and zero capacity to participate in its political machinery)

ycgeu 7y ago
Non-citizens aren't members of the nation, so the US are okay if we base morality on that random quote.
- Buttons840 7y ago
  That's not a satisfactory excuse or interpretation of the quote. Let's say North Korea selected a few of the leading family and declared they are "members", under such circumstances would that quote imply that North Korea is the greatest nation, because all its "members" have near King-like status? Or likewise, can a nation increase its greatness by declaring the weakest among them to be "non-members".
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  A non-citizen of decdes' residency, with family, business, social, community, and cultural interactions is not a member of the country[1]? ________________________________ Notes: 1. The US is technically not a nation-state, being a broad mix of numerous cultures. It is a state, or country, but not "nation". De facto of course, this is significantly modified.
dudul 7y ago
Do you realize a massive amount of immigrants are actually US citizens and have exactly the same rights as born Americans? With the exception of running for President.
- keerthiko 7y ago
  typo, I meant "immigrants and non-citizens", not "immigrants are non-citizens", can't edit

redbluegreen 7y ago

Do I have to submit all my spam email addresses as well? Madness

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
evolve2k 7y ago
There’s the loophole. Just send them all 500 of your email addresses!

joelbondurant 7y ago

Socialists won't stop until police robots shoot kids for jaywalking.

AaronFriel 7y ago

This will have a chilling effect on speech in this country, which is extremely sad. Academic and trade conferences would be best taken elsewhere. And job seekers? Prefer remote. For me as an American, this is, I guess, fine now. I won't be affected right away. But I fully expect other countries to institute reciprocal policies.

human20190310 7y ago
1) Doesn't the First Amendment restrict the US government from curtailing free expression and free association anyplace, not just within US borders? 2) Isn't anything that results in a "chilling effect" tantamount to restriction? I expect this will have a chilling effect abroad, among people who travel to the US, more than within the US.
- AaronFriel 7y ago
  Not a lawyer, so I can only speculate as a layperson 1) Sure, if you're a US Citizen, I don't think non-resident, non-citizens outside of the United States are entitled to any protections 2) That would be my opinion. Maybe a frequent¹ conference speaker¹ with outspoken political views² from a European country could mount a challenge that requiring social media profiles in order to enter the country amounts to a chilling effect and consequent prior restraint on speech in the United States ¹ - The conditions under which a person qualifies for the visa waiver program are complicated ² - I imagine a political dissident or someone equally outspoken who has used anonymous social media profiles to protect their livelihood would have the strongest case
  - eftychis 7y ago
    Just to add a bit on this. The (U.S) Bill of Rights applies to any person on U.S. soil. (That is a common misconception apparently but like many modern constitutions it refers to persons and not citizens). There is the gray area surrounding around the periphery of the U.S. and borders (https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone) (Essentially the U.S. government reasons that the area surrounding the border is U.S. soil for CBP, and not U.S. soil for anyone else.)

drskaugen 7y ago

Just filled in ESTA application, it is not demanded as the question regarding social media does not have to be answered.

jkaplowitz 7y ago
ESTA is an application for permission to travel to the US by air carrier or cruise ship to apply for admission under the Visa Waiver Program. As the word Waiver suggests, that permission is not a visa. People of VWP nationalities can apply for true US visas, but for short-term tourist or business visits there's usually no reason for them to bother unless they've been individually denied VWP eligibility or they want one of the few extra procedural rights which come from the visa and not through the VWP. All of which is to say, maybe they're only asking this horrible new question of true visa applicants and not VWP applicants.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
  I’d wager VWP visitors outnumber Visa applicants by a wide margin. Assuming they actually intend to perform even a cursory check of each social media account they’ll get bogged down for hours by trying to prove someone lying about not having a certain account. As an aside: someone posted a screenshot of the form showing one of the named sites was MySpace but doesn’t include Telegram (and you can use Telegram without a username too). Anyway - I hope someone comes to their senses (perhaps an ACLU lawsuit re: should people be forced to disclose membership of sites like Grindr?) and they remove the stupid question.
  - jkaplowitz 7y ago
    My guess (pure speculation) is that they won't manually check most social media accounts indicated on the form, but will automatically check the provided info against (and add the provided info to) some intelligence community database. Then they'd manually check any cases where security concerns are flagged by that database or otherwise.

diveanon 7y ago

I meet a lot of tourists on a daily basis, and I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time. I can't imagine how much worse it is for people that are forced to travel there for business. If the United States is trying to isolate itself from the rest of the world it is definitely succeeding. As a side note, I have not spoken to a tourist from the US on the island where I live in several months. However there is a literal flood of French, German, Chinese, Dutch, Singaporean, etc. Last night I had dinner with an Uzbek and Tanzanian couple. Where are you guys?

avocado4 7y ago
>> "I have not heard anyone say they want to visit the United States in a very long time." US had the 3rd largest number of tourists in the world in 2017 (after France and Spain). [1] Though YOY is trending down in Trump years. [1] https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284419876 https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284419876
- diveanon 7y ago
  I did not see a breakdown by age demographic in that report. The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US. Maybe that will change once they have kids who want to go see Harry Potter World in Orlando, but as it stands I think most of my customers would rather visit North Korea than the US.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > The overwhelming majority of the tourists I encounter fall into the Millennial bracket, and I don't think it is possible for them to be less enthusiastic about visiting the US I’m a millennial with lots of international millennial friends. Nobody likes these measures. But getting into most countries is no walk in the park. As much as I hate to admit this, the pressure to end these policies will never come from tourists.

qrbLPHiKpiux 7y ago

This is an unintended consequence of social media. It is the same as it was centuries ago. If you’re known to criticize someone else, and it gets back to them, of course there will be ramifications. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with this comment. I’m just stating fact.

gniv 7y ago

Also discussed a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065142

incompatible 7y ago
I has been discussed several times, including over a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16710838 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16710838 I remember one thread which I can't find, which considered whether Hacker News counted as a site that should be disclosed. I also seem to remember a claim that having an account on a site with "Hacker" in the title was an automatic disqualification. Hmm, this is the one I was thinking of: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635403 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17635403
dang 7y ago
Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20075608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20075608 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20071287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20071287

jammygit 7y ago

Everyone knows that the real danger of all this tracking and social media is that governments will start stealing the data and using it against people, or else by censoring things/manipulation. This is how it starts in-earnest, rather than half heartedly. See China for a demo of the future

pgt 7y ago

If enough heretics have your name in their social network, your visa will be denied. Requiring social media on visa applications is like enforcing everyone to use Truecaller (don't use it!). This feels like the start of a U.S. social credit system.

pnw_hazor 7y ago
Not a fan of this, but the US is late to the game -- and has received criticism because of it. Most developed countries already screen social media when processing visa applications.
- FabHK 7y ago
  Source?
- llamataboot 7y ago
  oh, make no mistake the US /already/ screened this stuff. My now-wife had all her social media pages printed out and waiting for her on an entry to the US in the Obama years. Difference is now they can ban you for lying...
  - mysterypie 7y ago
    Since you have actual first-hand knowledge of border officials doing social media questioning, could you tell us more about this? What did they ask her? What prompted them to print out the social media pages? Which social media sites? What country was she coming from? How long did they question her?
    - llamataboot 7y ago
      I mean, keep in mind this was 8 years ago. Not sure why they had them printed out - could have been to review them, could have been for intimidation. IIRC they asked her why she had changed her FB location to the American city she would stay in for the next 3 months, asked a bunch of questions about past posts in the US talking about helping build our home, buy decorations, etc (all as proof she was intent on overstaying her visa, which was vaguely ridiculous as we had applied for a fiance visa at that point, so she was pretty clearly intending on living here, but we were also pretty clearly intending on going through the legal visa process) Also asked a bunch of questions about some posts she had made seeking design clients in the US as proof she was working here illegally (even though she owned her own design business and paid taxes on it in Europe, obviously are allowed to take on US clients, but they were sketched out that she was soliciting US clients while in the US) They questioned her for about an hour with no access to phone/lawyer/etc and gave her the option of immediately voluntarily leaving the US. At the end of the process they told her that it would be the last time she could enter the US on an ESTA and next time it would have to be on the fiance visa, they also told her verbally she had to leave within 14 days, but they still stamped her for a 3 month entry as per regular ESTA guidelines. -- It was mostly a bunch of silliness about work/residency/intent to work without a work permit/intent to stay in the US without a visa even though all things were aboveboard. The most concerning to me remains that her facebook at the time was not in any legal name, certainly not the name the passenger manifest, but she was still obviously tracked down

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

apo 7y ago

Very discouraging to see this, especially because the overreach appears to have no limit. Today it's visa applications. Tomorrow it could be US citizens trying to get passports, driver licenses, or collect social security/medicare benefits. On the other hand, a growing awareness of the many dangers posed by poor digital hygiene could ultimately lead to greater interest in privacy tools and practices. Along the road, though, lives will be destroyed as the ground shifts underneath them. Especially troubling is the possibility that previously-legal activities could be punished well into the future if not outright prosecuted.

umanwizard 7y ago
> Tomorrow it could be US citizens trying to get passports, driver licenses, or collect social security/medicare benefits. Not really, since jurisprudence gives the executive a very wide latitude in deciding which foreigners to grant the privilege of entering the US. Much wider than it would give if it were a question of citizens applying for documents that they’re entitled to.
- apo 7y ago
  The groundwork for domestic implementation is already in place: https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/israel-texas-anti-bds-law/ https://theintercept.com/2018/12/17/israel-texas-anti-bds-la...
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Yes and the federal courts are taking her side (so far): https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/26/Texas-bahia-amawi-speaks-out-against-anti-israel-boycott/ https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/26/Texas-bahia-amawi-sp...

jacques_chester 7y ago

One of the reasons immigration laws ask so many questions is to set up an easy way to deport unwanted people without the tedious bother of an actual trial. This seems like a goldmine. Forgot an email? Didn't turn over your account details on pornhub? Had a single-use throwaway account you can't remember the password for? Congratulations, you qualify for easy eviction.

athaca 7y ago

does this impact Eb2/EB3 green card applications and TN visas as well?

darkteflon 7y ago

“If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.” - Cardinal Richlieu, 17c.

icxa 7y ago

Which is funny and shows that none of this virtue signaling matters because Turkey still has an unacknowledged genocide on their record and a militaristic leader with dictator-like aspirations who throws stages coups to enhance his favorability. I imagine many still desire to come to the USA (amongst the most are Indians) and they just aren't advertising it as loudly because it doesn't earn you any woke cred on the twitters.

diveanon 7y ago
Your reply was fine until you edited in that "woke" nonsense to try to make yourself sound clever. It might just be that YOY growth without a rolling average is always going swing wildly when a country has a lot of negative news cycles in a year and then goes relatively quiet. The US has been looking pretty bad, pretty consistently, for a long time now.
- icxa 7y ago
  I don't care about sounding clever mate, especially not to internet strangers. The more obvious answer to me is the wealth of the globe has increased YoY as well, mainly thanks to capitalism, so America isn't the primary destination for opportunity anymore, which is a good thing.
orhmeh09 7y ago
TBF, Turkey is cheaper for many people both in terms of transportation costs and the value you get for your money. I doubt it’s a coincidence rnce that the lira has been dropping so much in value (30% last year) that international shopping tours were organized Turkey is also trying to position itself as a transport hub so I’ve noticed a lot more people staying in the country for 1-3 days to see a few of the sights. Going to the US is too expensive for many who aren’y in neighboring countries. It’s also hard to get around.
dang 7y ago
Please do not take HN threads into nationalistic or political flamewar. Would you mind reviewing the site guidelines and following them when posting here? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20078978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20078978 and marked it off-topic.

kobayashy 7y ago

Gee, Imagine a horror tring to explain your profile on HN

Numberwang 7y ago

Are the requirements on the social media profiles 'higher' on the visitors than on their own population? That doesn't make sense.

DC-3 7y ago

Whatever happened to 'those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither', America?

craftyguy 7y ago
It's dead, Jim.
dmode 7y ago
That was just a feel good message like “All men are created equal” or separation of church and state
- masonic 7y ago
  separation of church and state ... is not an element of the U.S. Constitution. It simply prevents establishment of an official religion.

glbrew 7y ago

My reddit throwaways too?!?

mattigames 7y ago
SPECIALLY your reddit throwaways (and incl. twitter/fb/instagram/porhub throwaways too)

freeflight 7y ago

I'm a bit confused, hasn't this been happening for years already? [0] [1] [2] [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16810312 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16810312 [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/22/14066082/us-customs-border-patrol-social-media-account-facebook-twitter https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/22/14066082/us-customs-bord... [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/06/01/us-now-can-ask-travelers-facebook-twitter-handles/102393236/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/06/01/us-now-ca...

Mindwipe 7y ago
It's been an optional question for people unless they had been to certain areas recently in the middle east.

HeavenFox 7y ago

As any US Visa applicant can attest to, the DS-160 is already some of the most annoying form you have to fill - in fact for most people it's less pleasurable than doing 1040. In addition to asking for details of every school you went to, every job you had, every country you've been to, they ask you questions like this: >> Have you ever violated, or engaged in a conspiracy to violate, any law relating to controlled substances? >> Are you coming to the United States to engage in prostitution or unlawful commercialized vice or have you been engaged in prostitution or procuring prostitutes within the past 10 years? >> Have you ever been involved in, or do you seek to engage in, money laundering? >> Have you ever committed or conspired to commit a human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States? >> Are you the spouse, son, or daughter of an individual who has committed or conspired to commit a human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States and have you within the last five years, knowingly benefited from the trafficking activities? >> Have you knowingly aided, abetted, assisted or colluded with an individual who has committed or conspired to commit a severe human trafficking offense in the United States or outside the United States? >> Do you seek to engage in espionage, sabotage, export control violations, or any other illegal activity while in the United States? >> Do you seek to engage in terrorist activities while in the United States or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities? >> Have you ever or do you intend to provide financial assistance or other support to terrorists or terrorist organizations? >> Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization? >> Have you ever ordered, incited, committed, assisted, or otherwise participated in genocide? >> Have you ever committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in torture? >> Have you committed, ordered, incited, assisted, or otherwise participated in extrajudicial killings, political killings, or other acts of violence? >> Have you ever engaged in the recruitment or the use of the child soldiers? >> Have you, while serving as a government official, been responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom? >> Have you ever been directly involved in the establishment or enforcement of the population controls forcing a woman to undergo an abortion against her free choice or a man or a woman to undergo sterilization against his or her free will? >> Have you ever been directly involved in the coercive transplantation of human organs or bodily tissue? And now, this. And don't get me started on the stupid fact that you cannot renew your US visa within the US, and in the end people on student/work visas have to take the pointless trip to Canada/Mexico just to get a new visa. I hope someone eventually realizes visa applicants are people too.

glbrew 7y ago

I think it is fantastic our beloved government is making these admirable changes to protect us!

craftyguy 7y ago
I don't. It's fear-mongering bullshit.
- godelski 7y ago
  I assumed the parent was being sarcastic. Though HN isn't really the best place for comments like that (without added context or /s)
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    I think the word 'beloved' did all the job of an /s tag and more.
benatkin 7y ago
That's some quality sarcasm. Thank you for that.
suyash 7y ago
You think so, wait till they start collecting all kinds of things for all sorts of purposes beyond so called "protection".

godelski 7y ago

This seems isolationist. Why would we want to isolate ourselves? For a country that was founded upon immigrants, that extremely benefited (and continues to) from diversity of thought and ideas, why would we want to stop that? I'm just under 30 and I still remember growing up how I was told that a major part of what made America great was the melting pot. In academia and at labs I've seen this be a huge benefit. But I don't really hear how great the melting pot is anymore (I can only think of a few times in the last decade). Maybe it was just childhood naivety. But it also seems to me that it isn't just the US that is becoming isolationist. So I have to imagine that there's something, at least in western culture, that is changing.

jorblumesea 7y ago
Are you familiar with US history? Isolationism runs deep and wide.
- godelski 7y ago
  Yes and no. I don't think it is black and white. While I'd say that there are isolationist aspects it isn't like how China has been (probably deserved considering the British). There's definitely a scale. We clearly aren't North Korea, which is what people think of when they think of an isolationist country. But I also can't think of a country that isn't at least a little isolationist. So I wouldn't say that isolationism runs deep. It is definitely there, I would definitely say that it is a escarpment but that doesn't mean it is the Grand Canyon or the Marianas Trench.
  - jorblumesea 7y ago
    I don't think you understand, the US has a long and well established history of this, even to the point of formal political policies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-intervention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Doctrine_of_Unstable_Alliances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Doctrine_of_Unstabl...

ktpsns 7y ago

So what prevents me from leaving the requested fields empty or even put wrong account names on it? What if I lie about my phone number? Will they call me to check wether it rings in my pocket? Will they write me an email to check wether I recieve it?

Jach 7y ago
Presumably something at the bottom you sign that says the information above is true to the best of your knowledge under penalty of perjury. Willing to risk 5 years in prison for lying?
- mattigames 7y ago
  What if I close my social media accounts just before applying, I'm telling the truth when I leave them empty right? I don't think the government thought this through.
- rjsw 7y ago
  The old visa waiver form asked whether you were a gunrunner, everyone lied about that. This was when strong crypto was classed as a munition.
pimlottc 7y ago
If you leave them blank, they could just send you a request for the missing information and wait until you send it. If they discover you have knowingly lied on your application, then you can forget about visiting the US for a long time.
shiado 7y ago
They corroborate your story with the data the NSA has stored and then permanently ban you from the USA for life for lying because Facebook was forced to give them your IP which is tied to the Gmail account Google was forced to disclose information about where your flight booking information was received.

makecheck 7y ago

This was stupid when it was just potential employers expecting this information, and it’s even stupider here. Let’s see how many bad reasons for this I can come up with in 30 seconds: 1. Social media may be popular but it is not universal (I still know people without a Facebook profile for instance). Thus, while the government should expect that someone may truthfully answer “I don’t have social media accounts”, I’ll bet money that anyone actually giving that answer on their visa application is screwed. 2. Huge numbers of social media profiles are completely FAKE. Combined with #1 above, if you don’t actually use a particular site but it seems like you do, you are again screwed. 3. Some people have extremely common names and legitimately do not want their pictures posted. Therefore, it is likely there are hundreds of real accounts with your name, many even in your city, that are not you. If the government is trying to determine if you “lied” about having an account, how many of these are they going to accuse you of owning? Or are they just going to conclude, based on the stuff being posted by those people, that your application should be denied? 4. The government does not run these sites, corporations do (and ultimately, random employees made some rules for running them). Suppose #2 above occurs, and someone is posting insane stuff as “you”; great, now your entire damned visa application is in danger, and some random set of rules made up by an employee at Facebook or Twitter is going to decide your fate. Can you get the profile taken down? Ask Facebook. Can you “prove” the profile is not you? Follow random rules from Facebook. And so on. 5. Not everything I do is on social media. And if I were to set up a secret club or criminal enterprise, do you think I’d be writing about it on Twitter and Facebook?!?!? What will exist on social media for a lot of people is an endless firehose of crap, which will mostly give the government way too much information to sift through. It will be a huge waste of time. In other words, this policy can definitely hurt legitimate applicants and is not likely to add any useful information when screening applicants that “should” be denied.

mLuby 7y ago
>if I were to set up a secret club or criminal enterprise, do you think I’d be writing about it on Twitter and Facebook You'd be surprised… :D >In other words, this policy can definitely hurt legitimate applicants and is not likely to add any useful information when screening applicants that “should” be denied. Exactly, I think that's the point. "Give me six lines written by an honest man and I will find something in them which will hang him." (~Card. Richelieu) All that extra content from social media will give decisionmakers plenty of latitude to justify whatever decision they already wanted.

jorblumesea 7y ago

It's interesting how the US implements a policy, and is rightfully scorned for it. Meanwhile Europe continues to do similar things, yet Europe implements similar policies, and no one cares. Politics as usual I guess. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754/Immigration-officers-to-check-social-media-of-applicants-to-root-out-fanatics.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12054754...

nutjob2 7y ago
The immigration policies of the UK are very much not representative of other European countries.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  That's not my point, you don't see UK under the microscope. Just seems to be another case of "US bad/Europe good".
  - llukas 7y ago
    UK is not in Schengen zone - so it is not "Europe" - even EU citizens go through customs when entering UK (unlike within Schengen zone).
    - jorblumesea 7y ago
      That's not what I'm getting at, I'm not debating Europe vs "Europe". It's when a Europe area country does something, everyone seems to give them a pass. When the US does something similar, it's viewed with a different perspective.
      - llukas 7y ago
        Which country in Europe has has policies affecting 300M+ people (domestic) and eagerly exports it's policies to other countries?
  - 7y ago

robocat 7y ago

I am happy to never visit the US due to the rules. However it sucks that the US is the easiest/cheapest way to transit to many countries. However I can't transit through say LA without "entering" the US. So I can't visit other countries easily (especially Canada, or central America).

fastball 7y ago
Huh? If you don't want a visa, why do you care about this?
- tialaramex 7y ago
  They explained that pretty clearly. The US insists that you are entering their country if your route of travel passes through US territory. So sensible routes to lots of other countries that don't themselves have obnoxious rules are off limits if you don't want the US nosing thorough everything.
  - fastball 7y ago
    If your social network accounts are public, the NSA can already see them, it doesn't matter if you explicitly give them your username. If your accounts are not public, giving them your username won't really do anything. I'm still not sure I see the problem? "Oh no, I'm traveling through the US and now they know that I have a social network account!" ?? They already knew that if you were actually a person of interest.
    - robocat 7y ago
      But the TSA and whatever other relevant departments don't have access to the NSA databases (or don't publicly show it, same thing from my POV). I perceive that I might be denied entry to the US because someone shares a photo of me doing something the US doesn't like .. Then my trip to Canada gets cancelled, and I get to say "yes" when asked by every other country "have you ever been denied entry". Meanwhile I must also provide biometrics. And it is a federal form. The theoretical risk is high (although actual risk is low if you are a normal person).

ratling 7y ago

Because americans are stupid and short sighted. We've seen what happens when you double down on isolationism. Japan sells more adult diapers than baby ones. But hey, when you spend 8 years screaming BROWN MAN BAD it's not surprising you make dumb decisions in other aspects of your life.

maxxxxx 7y ago

What are they going to do with these? Just take a quick look or constantly keep monitoring them?

dredds 7y ago
They will go into a yuge database and you can lay pretty good odds on what will happen next.

kndjckt 7y ago

What happens if you run / have run a social media account for a company?

suyash 7y ago

Perhaps it would help is US Gov explicitly mentions that they are looking for and specially what are the red flags that they consider in applicant social media accounts.

billforsternz 7y ago

I travelled to the US recently for the first time in 20 years or so. I had to apply for a Visa waiver (ESTA) and from memory they had a social media section that was flagged as "optional". I'm not big on social media and decided that my rarely used accounts would be of no use or interest to anyone. If I remember correctly though I did put my Github account on there (unless my memory is playing vicious tricks on me, yes Github was listed). Call me crazy but I decided that if the US government was interested in my C++ chess code, great! I did gird my loins for a horribly unwelcoming experience at the airport (semi off topic but widely discussed here). At JFK it was actually super nice, but we were first off the plane and there was no queue to hit. We did take a side trip to Canada and had to enter the US again at O'Hare and that was a different story entirely. Seemingly a million planes arriving at once. Even miserable looking and bemused cabin crew queuing from here to eternity. When we finally got to the head of the queue(s) the over-worked, under manned staff were perfunctory but non unpleasant. I haven't seen anything as disorganised and shambolic in arrivals at a European airport ever, but maybe I've just been lucky.

SmokeGS 7y ago
oh fuck, that's so true. O'hare is almost murder on non-us citizens if that is their airport of entry.
prawn 7y ago
I’m here in the US via ESTA (sixth time in ten years maybe? More?). Three month road trip. I have active social accounts (not without a political slant) and didn’t list them. Didn’t seem to be a factor when I came through (with wife and kids), nor previous trips. Colleague with minimal social profile but travelling by himself copped a three hour pressure-grilling last year. They were most concerned with the idea that he’d try to work and overstay.

dmode 7y ago

This is just nuts. I have several social media accounts and in many of them I have said not so nice things about various governments across the world, including the American government. Wonder how that will be treated.

hannofcart 7y ago

I wonder if there is any sort of oversight of the process to ensure that the determination made as to whether to approve or deny is not arbitrary. While I will grudgingly hand over my social media details, and I have no fear of being linked to terrorism or calls for violence or anything of the sort, I am worried that my anti-Trump posts (I'm an avid follower of American politics despite not being American) and other posts condemning Republican party politics will hurt my chances. Again, I've never called for any violence against the man, but have indeed called him a moron more than a few occasions.

codedokode 7y ago

It might be difficult to provide the truthful answers. For example, I don't remember all of my current phone numbers, let alone those that I might have used in the past. Also, I don't remember all the names of fake SNS accounts I created, and don't remember throwaway email account names. Also, US three-letter agencies already have access to Google, Twitter, Facebook and have all necessary information, as Snowden has said, so I guess it makes no sense to provide it again. Maybe they just are trying to build a cause to be able to deport anyone from the country or reject entry. In this case it would be better to pass a law that allows to do it. Also this is a good reminder that you better not post too much details about yourself in social networks, otherwise it can be used against you. And Hackernews is not considered a social network, right?

goodold 7y ago

So is PornHub considered a social media?

unionpivo 7y ago

What I wonder is what is considered a social media. Twiter, facebook, linkedin sure. But is github social media site? How about medium ? Steam webstore ? How about reddit and hackernews ? Stackowerflow ?

blablabla123 7y ago
Exactly, also what about E-Mail accounts from the 90s of which I hardly remember the spelling? What about usenet? Oh, and I must guarantee that everything is correct. If this applies also for the visitor visa, this is really not good news. I don't care that they ask about why I visit, about the person I visit, what is my relationship to that and more personal questions. But it's starting to get a bit too much.